July 15, 2025 • 40 mins
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The battle between love and lust rages in every human heart. In this powerful exploration of the Maria Goretti story, we uncover how what we consume shapes who we become – sometimes with devastating consequences.
Maria Goretti was just 11 years old when Alessandro Serenelli, a young man living and working with her family, attacked and murdered her after she refused his sexual advances. What drove this ordinary farm worker to such violence? The toxic media he consumed played a crucial role. Alessandro filled his mind with sensational novels about crime and lust, creating a dangerous inner landscape where "forbidden fruit no longer nourished him" and "self-abuse infuriated him."
Our guest Michael Lichens, author and editor with a passion for overlooked aspects of Christian history, walks us through this harrowing yet ultimately redemptive story.
As John Paul II observed, "The problem with pornography is not that it reveals too much, it reveals too little." It fails to reveal the person – the human heart that longs to be loved, not used. This insight resonates powerfully today as young people navigate a hypersexualized culture bombarding them with distorted messages about sexuality and human dignity.
The story takes an extraordinary turn when Alessandro experiences a vision of Maria while in prison.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome to the Become who you Are podcast, a
production of the John Paul IIRenewal Center, and a special
shout out to the men of Claymore, miletus Christie, all the
young people that have beenjoining us on this show.
As you know, my heart goes out,just like John Paul II's went
out for young people that havebeen joining us on this show.
As you know, my heart goes out,just like John Paul II went out
for young people You've grownup in a twisted, distorted,
toxic culture, repeatedly liedto about the very basics
(00:34):
concerning the meaning of life,human dignity, marriage, the
family, authentic love, the truemeaning of sex and sexuality.
Especially disturbing is thenormalization of pornography.
John Paul II said that theproblem with pornography is not
that it reveals too much, itreveals too little.
It doesn't reveal the person itdoesn't reveal the human heart
(00:55):
who wants and seeks to be loved,not to be used right.
The opposite of love, then, isnot hate.
The opposite of love is lustusing someone for your own ego,
your own selfish desires.
Of course, lust is nothing new.
It's been destroying livesthroughout human history.
I just read an important booktitled I Killed Maria Goretti.
(01:15):
It's a true story of lust,murder and also the story of
forgiveness, redemption,salvation.
In a sense, it's a story of allof us Joining me today to
discuss this crucial topic.
In the book, all the way fromthe Rocky Mountains, is Michael
Likens and it's Likens, right,michael Litchens like kitchens.
Okay, litchens, like kitchens.
(01:37):
I should have asked you beforewe came on, but my audience is
very forgiving.
Michael is an author, editor,researcher with a passion for
the overlooked aspects ofChristian history.
He's a former editor of theCatholic Exchange and everybody
on the show knows that I writequite often for the Catholic
Exchange as well as the StAustin Review.
(01:57):
He's also a frequent guest onradio and television shows on
which he shares strange anddelightful things about our
faith and history.
And shows on which he sharesstrange and delightful things
about our faith and history Withan MA from the University of
Chicago Divinity School and a BAin philosophy.
Michael especially loves readinganything about Augustine and GK
Chesterton.
You can't go wrong with those,michael.
(02:19):
When he's not busy writingabout bone churches, we'll have
to ask him what that is.
In local history, he can befound editing books for authors
or leading tours of oldbuildings in the american west
or in rome.
Follow his writings and otheradventures at m uh and I'm going
to spell this out for people,but I'll put it in the show
notes too m-l-i-c-h-e-n-s dotcom.
Well, I was just on the website.
(02:41):
Michael describes himself as afaith haunted beer critic with a
writing problem.
Michael, I love that.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Thank you so much, Jack.
It's a joy to be with you today.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah.
So tell me a couple things here.
What is a faith-haunted beercritic?
And with that writing problem,give us a little description
when you wrote that down Sure,and also the bone churches.
I want to know what that isSure.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
So I wrote a book called Weird Catholic Handbook.
Yes, I saw that it includes acouple of things, including what
are called auxiliaries, whichare churches that are made out
of bones, and the historicalreason for that was because pure
and simple cemeteries withincity walls in the Middle Ages
would run out of room onoccasion.
So what do you do with all thebones?
In a couple of places, such asin Rome, the monks actually said
(03:30):
we'll take our bones and makeit part of the church, and so
there's a beautiful Capuchincrypt in Rome that has about
5,000 monks who are alldecorated.
Their bones decorate the altars,the chandeliers, everything so
that they are a part of thechurch, and it's also what I
like to call a spiritual gutpunch of memento mori.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yes, yes, yes, michael, you know, when you dig
deep into our faith, you can'tmake this stuff up, can?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
you?
No, you cannot, no, it has tobe true because it's an
adventure.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
It's an adventure.
And what is a beer critic?
What kind of beer do you like?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I love.
I've been to the Czech lands,I've been to Prague and all over
, so I especially love Czechlager.
If we have any Czech listeners.
I love your beer and I love you, so carry on.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Well, thank you for that.
You know, michael, young peopletoday are taught that their
behavior like watching porn,other trash on social media,
anything they're consumingthemselves with materialism,
consumerism.
They don't realize until now.
You know, the guys that we'remeeting realize something's
(04:38):
wrong, michael, and when youfill your mind and your heart
with this toxic stew that thesepoor young people and really my
heart goes out to them, and Iknow John Paul's too it really
affects you, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Absolutely does.
I think we're now starting tounderstand, especially with
social media, having a littledevice in our pocket that can
stream information to us, ornon-information to us, 24 hours
a day.
It takes an effect on people.
It leads to more unhappiness,more anxiety and, as we see in
(05:14):
this book I Killed Maria Gorettiit can lead to some really dark
places quickly.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Why don't you describe a little bit, just to
back up a little bit on thisbook itself?
Give us just a little bit.
You know, I mean St MariaGoretti, I mean just this
beautiful.
You know, let's just say thatshe took a different path than
Alessandro here.
But I'm going to back up andlet you just give us just a
little overview for our audiencethat may not know them.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Sure.
So Maria Goretti was, I believe, the youngest canonized saint
in modern times.
She was 11 years old when shedied.
A very faithful young girl,loving family, worked hard,
peasant farmers and loved theEucharist, loved Jesus.
And one day one of the familiesthat lived with her, the
(06:01):
Serenellis, the youngest boy,alessandro, attempted to seduce
her and then take advantage ofher.
She fought him off, told him ifyou do this, you will go to
hell.
God does not want this.
In response, alessandro stabbedher 14 times with a brush hook
and then went to bed and Mariahad to endure emergency surgery.
(06:24):
This is in 1902, so anesthesiaand medical practice is nowhere
near.
It is today.
And yet, on her deathbed, amongher last words were that she
forgave Alessandro, but morethan that, she wanted to see him
in heaven and she died.
The church declared her amartyr because she died for all
the great virtues you canimagine, and she was canonized
(06:48):
by 1947.
But more miraculously than that, alessandro had a vision of her
while he was serving his prisonsentence and it melted his
hardened heart.
He became a model prisoner,then a model citizen.
When he was released fromprison, begged forgiveness from
Maria's mother and family.
They accepted him as one oftheir own in a show of
(07:11):
forgiveness.
That is unbelievable.
And he died, always having tobear the guilt and the
consequences of what he did.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
But he died a good man.
He died a good man.
You know, this is the oppositesides of the pole right.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
This young guy.
There was a moment in the book,michael.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Early in the book, where Alessandro asked himself
why he could not be like thesimple-minded peasants who
treated sexes casually asrutting beasts, temptations were
starting to come into his mind.
You know, these families werepeasant farmers, right, living
(07:52):
basically together, and MariaGoretti's father had died right
by then.
It was died early, and I thinkAlessandro's mother had died
early.
Yes, she did so these familiescame together to work the farm,
basically to work the farm, andso these temptations started to
go to him.
He knew, though, at that momentthis is why, when we talk to
these young men, this is theClaymore sword behind me,
(08:12):
michael, that's the Claymoresword, miletus Christi.
We know this is the battle ofthe heart.
John Paul would say it's thebattle of the heart, between
love and lust, in essence, andit always starts in the human
heart, in the individual humanheart and essence, and always
starts in the human heart, inthe individual human heart.
And so the reason I bring thisup, michael, is because there's
that moment where he said that Iwish I could be like the
simple-minded peasants whotreated sex as casually as
rutting beasts.
(08:32):
See, something, when he lookedat Maria, he still had a
conscience, you know, he hadthat, something more, that these
young people that are coming inwith us, michael, are sensing
there's got to be something more, something better there.
But at that moment this is thistemptation At that moment you
have to do battle, don't you?
And you can go one of two waysand get led down some wild paths
(08:55):
.
We've all been on those paths,brother.
I can speak from experience.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
No, as a young man, not to the extent that
Alessandro did, but I got intosome really egotistical
philosophies that said, you know, man is the measure of all
things.
We're beyond good and evil,we're the arbiters of morality,
and that's especially as a youngman.
That's a very temptingphilosophy to want to engage in.
It's ultimately fruitless and,as we see with Alessandro, it
(09:25):
can lead to some very dark ideasquickly.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, when those temptations come in.
We're all standing, in a sense,between that tree of the
knowledge of good and evil andwe have to make that decision.
Our sexual desires are powerful.
This is a life force, an energy, life force within us.
It's put there by God becauseyour passions and desires.
The problem is not with ourpassions and desires, of course.
(09:51):
The problem is with ourmisdirected passions and desires
.
This can either shoot you toour destiny, to heaven itself
and find what we're looking forand be a self-giving person, or
we twist it around and thatrocket goes down deep into a
very dark, anxious place.
We deal, michael, with a lot ofyoung people that are anxious,
nervous, depressed, even talkabout suicide, and so this is a
(10:16):
big deal.
This is a big deal.
And so you're standing there,and he's standing there at that
time and this was a crucialmoment, I think when temptation
really again earlier on in thebook, where he says no, I'm
going to be like the beasts, youknow, I'm going to be like
those animals and give in tothis, you know, and it took him
a while.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
It took him a long while and I would say nothing,
but the grace of God could haveovercome his hardened heart.
One of the beautiful thingsabout this book is the author,
pietro di Donato, spent sometime with Alessandro Serenelli
and really got to know his mind.
So the book kind of talks abouthis inner life, the inner
struggles he had, especially thestruggles he had growing up,
(10:59):
but also how his mind led to theerotic literature, to the
horrible philosophies heconsumed and this idea that he
had that he was above reproachand could just give into his
passions willy-nilly.
And it led to the death of an11 year old girl and a horrific
accident like even in our timewe would.
(11:20):
If that happened in ourneighborhood, it would
traumatize us and these thingshappen all the time.
Yes, they happen all the timeactually, yes, they happen all
the time.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I mean, these things are dark.
You know, it's very interestingwhat you just said, that you
know this is a time before theInternet.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
This is the time before these.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
You know, we carried these phones, like you said,
around in our pockets all thetime.
Yet he was reading, at thistime, sensational novels,
articles about crime, lust,passions.
He even read an article aboutsomeone who murdered a young
girl and she was stabbed todeath by this mad lover, and so
he actually carried this out.
(11:56):
This again gets back and weknow this when we fill our minds
and our hearts.
You know, john Paul would callit self-determination, and he
didn't make this up, right, Imean, he brings us to the
tradition of the church, but weco-create ourselves with God,
don't we, michael?
I mean, it's our actions, it'swhat we fill ourselves with, and
we participate in this story.
(12:16):
We didn't create ourselves, butwe co-create who we become,
don't?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
we we do.
We were given free will as agift.
We are not automatons justsimply going about our day.
So, even though we have drivingpassions, things like rage or
lust can really they can controlthe mind in many ways, but
ultimately, we still have thepower over ourselves to make a
determination what do I want tobe?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
And, in addition to free will, we were given reason
and intellect.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And?
But you know, we see this,michael, what's your opinion?
Just to get off this just alittle bit.
You know, not far from that.
Isn't this what's going on inour culture today?
That, you know, when we rejectwhat's true, good and beautiful,
when we become people of, youknow, basically living out this
moral, relativistic life wherethere is no truth, only my truth
(13:05):
or your truth, it's verychaotic.
You know, we become irrationalpeople when we no longer seek
the truth.
We become irrational.
And so often Michael and BishopSheen would talk about this a
lot he said, when you becomeirrational over time it turns to
violence.
And Alessandro said that in thebook.
He said this one time and I'llthrow this back to you.
(13:28):
He said at some point.
So the line was crossed here,right, this is the real life.
He said, the stories offorbidden fruit no longer
nourish them, and it might'vebeen the author that said this,
and self-abuse infuriated him.
So this forbidden fruit, it nolonger nourished him.
I needed more like an addict,right?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
This is no more.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
And the self-abuse.
You know I'm assuming this wasthe pain in his own heart.
It infuriated him, right.
He couldn't fulfill thesedesires he had.
And finally you give in to yourpassions.
You know when you're seekingthe infinite and you're trying
to fill it out with an infinitewith it, with you know, in a
finite space, trying to fill theinfinite desires of our heart
in a finite space.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
It's infuriating to people, right, because they
can't do it no, I think it'svery infuriating, especially in
the modern age that we atalessandro lived in, where we
were promised that theenlightenment.
You know we're now a rational,we're a rational universe and
anything we want or desire tocan be manufactured for us and
mailed to our door by Amazon andthis will bring us ultimate
(14:31):
fulfillment.
And it doesn't.
We see this in the statisticssuicide and depression are at
all high highs, especiallyaround young men, and we know
that people, whether they're myage, in their mid 40s or they're
younger, it's not satisfying,it doesn't fill that hole in our
heart the way that it waspromised, and what does it lead
(14:53):
to but anger and resentment?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I think you're seeing this.
When we have these protests andI'm generalizing here, right,
I'm not knocking every protest.
You know, I grew up in the—Iwas born in the late 50s, but I
grew up in the 60s and the 70swe had plenty of protests and
some of them were violent, youknow, but they didn't start out
that way.
They didn't start with violence.
We had a theme, we had an ideathat, you know, against the war
(15:17):
or whatever, that was Right, butthe sexual revolution was alive
and well.
And the same time we'reprotesting against war, we're
creating war within our ownhearts, you know we got it
twisted.
You know St Maria Goretti andAlessandro.
They were well before us.
But I tell you what you knowthe sexual revolution unleashed
(15:39):
this again.
When we don't understand whatthe beauty of our sexuality, the
beauty of love, man, we can getthrown around, can't we.
And I see this breaking out allover the culture.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Oh, it's hard for it not to break out in the culture
because you know I'm forgettingwho coined the phrase sex sells,
but you know it was a truism ofit sells everything from
shampoo to beer in ourcommercials.
You can't watch a football gamewithout having your lust
triggered in some ways.
It's very much almost to apoint where and it's strange
(16:17):
because it almost devalues sexto a purely base, animalistic
way- To the point, Michael,where we're not even going out
looking for girls anymore.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
These guys are in the basement with porn.
I think this is where that Igot to try to remember that
phrase, you know.
And the self-abuse infuriatedhim.
It's something stuck with mewhen I read that and I go yes,
you know again, these poor youngguys, you know, they become
apathetic to life, life becomesvery dark.
What's the point of all this?
(16:50):
And man, the faith, becomesimportant.
You know, you see this even inthese peasants.
You know that have nothingaround them and still are filled
with joy of the family, ofcooking Just the.
You know they don't take forgranted just a roof over their
heads.
And it's really something whenyou see this twisted and
(17:12):
distorted culture we work with,again, with a lot of young
people, and when they hear thisstory for the first time, you
know theology of the body andthe beauty of our sexuality.
I think it's so important,michael, not to push down these
desires and tell young men andyoung women that these are bad,
because these desires themselveshave been given to us again by
(17:32):
God.
When you open those desires tobe purified, it's like a river.
I think you know Tucker Carlsonhad Bishop Barron on not too
long ago and Bishop Barrondescribed it.
You know something like that hesaid.
You know, this is a river withbanks and within those banks
(17:53):
it's moving, it's beautiful,it's moving fast, but what
happens when those banks breakdown, you know?
And everything just gets, youknow, putrid and apathetic, and
we lose the meaning, and we losethe beauty and the power of
this right and we becomeinverted.
And I think this is all thesethings are going through
Alessandro.
He's living in this marsh area,he's bored, you know, you don't
(18:19):
have air conditioning, youdon't have television, you know
and he's reading this, you knowthis, I don't know.
I can't really call it garbage,but he described it, as you know
, fairly crime-ridden.
You know kind of got him intothese lustful states.
What do we do, michael, in thatstate?
And what happened ultimatelywith Alessandro?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Well, initially, alessandro was completely
unrepentant of his crime.
He murdered an 11-year-old girl, went to bed and then Maria.
After she died, he was, ofcourse, arrested.
The Carabinieri, which were theNational Police of Italy,
(19:05):
dragged him to court and he,even at the insistence of his
lawyer he would not show remorse.
He didn't even want to appealhis sentence.
For him it was a fait.
To complete, it was done.
So what's the point of arguingabout it?
And said something that churnedmy stomach, but just basically,
like she wouldn't have died ifshe just gave in.
That was his attitude, but andthat's what the way he really
felt I, I get a sense of that inthe book, right.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Oh, it was absolutely .
It was absolutely the way hefelt she owes this to me.
I'm showing her attention, I'mgiving her my attention.
Why wouldn't she do this?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, exactly, and that entitlement towards another
person's body is something thatwe almost promote in this
culture, so it's something youknow, everyone's owed.
A pretty woman to have sex withis kind of the message you can
get from our society, and hereit was.
He took that to its fullestextreme, but to show God's grace
(19:58):
and how powerful it is, a fewyears into his sentence, after
he was serving solitaryconfinement, an earthquake
happened in Sicily, where he wasimprisoned, and a few days
later he had a dream of Mariacoming to him, handing him 14
lilies, each representing thestab wounds he gave her, and
they burst into flames when hetook them.
(20:19):
And not only that.
She promised, as she said onher deathbed I forgive you and I
want you in heaven with me.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
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(20:49):
A couple, a couple things toshare with people love ed.
Love ed is just such aimportant um apostolate, so it's
in within our apostolate, thejohn paul to renewal center.
This helps parents give thetalk to their children.
Uh, we're trying to push backon all these gender ideologies
and the porn culture and givechildren the truth and do it
(21:13):
through their parents, and wehelp them do that.
The other one is really takenoff too.
It's Claymore Miletus Christi,soldiers for Christ.
That's where you see the swordbehind me.
That's the big sword.
That's our logo for Claymore.
That's a Claymore sword.
And this is for young people,especially young men, gen Z,
high school, all the way through, let's call it, till they're 30
(21:38):
years old or so.
They're starting to reallyunderstand that something
nefarious, very toxic, is goingon in the culture, and so
they're stepping into the churchand we're discipling them.
So we want to help get the wordout about those things and,
lastly, consider financiallysupporting us.
Everything's in the show notes.
Hey, god bless you.
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
And this was almost.
It was a Paul on the road toDamascus moment.
He was changed instantly.
Within moments he became amodel prisoner.
He wrote to the bishop.
He said he wanted to do right,he wanted to ask forgiveness
from the family and he knew hewould have to live with this
guilt for the rest of his life.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Close to the people that listen to us, michael, and
again my heart goes out to them,but it just shows you when you
(22:34):
start to read good literature,right?
You start to read scripture, youstart to pray, you start to
open up, and I think this is sopoignant.
This is page 107 in the book.
It was ironic that thecompelling reading habit that
fanned the fire toward crime inthe farmhouse where he was
living now was a wall of solaceand his intimate and richly
(22:58):
rewarding friend.
He realized the fact that theprinted word could be a potent
influence for the activation ofeither good or evil.
And here's the point again.
I should say that again right,the fact that the printed word
could be a potent influence forthe activation of either good or
evil.
It was like a substance takeninto one's being, where putrid
(23:22):
air and food made for illnessand even death, or the opposite,
or the compassion for life.
And so this is how we kind ofstarted this whole thing.
You know, when you fillyourself, you become.
You know, john Paul would say,when you fill yourself with the
good, you go out and do good youbecome good, I am good or we
start to fill ourselves withevil, with sin.
(23:44):
We go out and do sin and even inyour heart, right, jesus said,
you know, matthew 5, 27, 28,even if you look at a woman with
lust in your heart, you'vealready committed adultery and
you always think, wow, thatseems kind of harsh, right.
But the point is here, thepoint is right there.
That's where the sword comes in.
Right at that point oftemptation I don't want to stuff
(24:04):
it down, pretend like itdoesn't exist.
The starvation diet, right when.
Alessandro exploded and heindulged.
And these poor guys that wemeet, addicted to pornography,
so many of them go fromsuppressing to indulging,
suppressing to indulging.
And what we're talking abouthere is a third way to open
(24:25):
those desires to God and allowhim to come into our heart as
becomes an invitation to prayer.
And it's so beautiful when thathappens.
I know in my own life, everymorning I'm tempted with
something you know sloth, or Idon't want to get up, or I don't
want to do, or I'm fearfulbecause I got some new
presentation that I haven't donebefore.
And I go, oh my gosh, you knowI haven't prepared well for this
(24:46):
.
I got to, you know, so I, youget down on your knees and you
open up all those temptations,whatever they are, and uh, and
it's just such a beautiful wayand let God's grace come in and
fill you.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
You ever have that happen, Michael.
Yes, I have, and I've also.
I've been.
I'm not the only one.
No, you're far from the onlyone.
My friend, trust me.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
It's common and I think we need to talk to that,
to young people, about that, youknow, because they don't know,
they're coming back in andsaying, oh my gosh, do I just do
battle with, with all theselusts, because they have these
images, right, and this putrid,you know, and they're getting
the shove down.
We call it.
I did a presentation last nightand we title it stolen
(25:29):
innocence and we do it all overthe all over the state, and it's
, it's what they're doing.
They're robbing the innocenceof children, they're
obliterating their moralimaginations.
And these are young kids that,like, like it, reminds me of a
little Maria Goretti.
She was 11 years old, andthat's what they're doing this
even before they're 11.
Of a little Maria Goretti.
She was 11 years old and that'swhat they're doing this even
before they're 11.
(25:49):
And when you twist and distorta young person's heart like that
, this is evil, this is reallyevil.
They're doing it in theIllinois schools, here, they're
trying to do it in Colorado andthey're succeeding too.
You know, pushing thesenational what they call national
sex ed standards and stuff downto these kids, these gender
ideologies, it's something.
Are you feeling that out there?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I'm not as familiar with the education program.
I'm not surprised, to say theleast, because our whole culture
is basically the way I like todescribe.
It is because we're such aconsumerist culture where we
think we're allowed anything andeverything on demand.
We do that to our sexuality, toour pleasures, and then we
(26:30):
wonder why everyone's messed upwhen they become adults.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And because you're getting into relationships, then
you know you're getting youknow whether you're married or
not, but let's call it.
Let's say you are, let's sayyou get married.
Well, you know, we think thatthis brokenness is just going to
go away.
You know, everybody's lookingfor the right person, but nobody
wants to become the rightperson.
So when you find the rightperson, they either reject you
(26:55):
because you're not what they'relooking for, or the two broken
people which we're all broken,right.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
We're all sinners.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Two broken people get married and they aren't aiming
at Christ on the cross.
They're not aiming at him firstso I can be filled with divine
life and love and then becomethat life and love in the world.
And when you don't do that, youknow I kind of like the evil, I
don't like evil Michael, but Ikind of like that.
It's standing up, it's open.
(27:22):
You know the weeds and thewheat, that parable right, and I
kind of like this you can seeit and that's what these young
people are seeing.
You know, what they did is andI don't know if you're a
political animal or not but theyvoted for Donald Trump, so many
of them and they just felt likesomething had to change.
And he gave them some hope thatmaybe somebody was there
(27:45):
backing them up, you know, butthey didn't know why.
They don't know exactly what'sgoing on.
So this is a great time toevangelize, michael.
So speak to these young peoplefrom your own heart, right from
your own experience.
You're a reader, you've got aphilosophical background.
I can't wait to read some moreof your stuff, but you just seem
like you're full of joy and,look, you're a beer critic.
(28:08):
I drink a little more wine thanbeer, but I love these craft
beers and the IPAs and stuffthat are coming out.
So Christianity is not aPuritanism.
It's not stuffing these thingsdown.
Look, I didn't warn you abouttalking about that kind of stuff
, but let's talk about that alittle bit, because this is not
(28:30):
about not being joyful andtaking pleasures and et cetera,
is it?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
No, and like you said a couple of times, God created
these for us.
They are good for us.
Thank you, you know, withoutyou know, we are given sexual
passion.
Part of it is to bring aboutchildren, one of the greatest
joys in the human race.
This is a good thing God hasgiven us.
The problem is, as Augustinewould point out, is that we can
deface the goodness or we putlower goods above the highest
(28:59):
goods, so suddenly sex becomesmore important than
self-improvement, our salvationand our relationships and things
like that, and then it's stilldisordered in how we approach it
.
So in all of this, what we'relooking for is joy.
I like to use Chesterton'sanalogy that God built us a
playground, but he put a fencearound the playground to protect
(29:21):
us.
So we're not there, we're notimprisoned, we're there to be
protected.
So we're not imprisoned, we'rethere to be protected.
God gave us this vast area toplay in, to have fun, to enjoy
life, but we're not to go beyondthose walls because there is
danger no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And when you start to talk about St Augustine, here's
a man that was a worldly man.
He had all these passions anddesires right he never did marry
the woman that he lived withfor, I think, 15 years.
His only child was a son bornout of wedlock, and so he went
through some of the same thingsright Again.
(30:09):
We get back to our premise inthe beginning that these
temptations are going to whackall of us.
It's what we do with them.
And he's searching, searching.
He wants to build up his ownreputation and then he hears
this crazy who became and Idon't know if he was at that
time Bishop Ambrose, and he justhears that gospel and it
touches something.
(30:30):
It says ooh, ooh, what was that, what was that?
And it touches something.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
It says ooh, ooh, what was that?
Huh, what was that?
No, it was exactly like so manyof those conversion moments,
we're always looking to befulfilled.
We're looking for somethingthat will fill that gap in our
heart that we have, especiallyafter the fall.
And so much of the world I evenread will sometimes read a
biography of a millionaire or abillionaire and they'll talk
about their nice houses, alltheir lavish wealth, and they're
(30:56):
still depressed and it's likewell, if this can't give me
fulfillment, what can?
Speaker 1 (31:01):
What can you know?
I love the same thing when Ispeak to engaged couples, which
I'll be doing this Saturday forour diocese and we unpack
theology.
I love to give examples ofpeople that have it, that had it
all right All the money, allthe fame, all the girls, all the
talents that they have.
And again, I don't like evil, Idon't like bad things to happen
(31:25):
to people, but they're nothappy, they're on drugs.
Some of them have killedthemselves.
You know, when I was a kid andI don't know, do you remember
Elvis Presley?
Yeah, oh, yes, yeah.
And so it's amazing, when I'mspeaking to young people they
still know Elvis somehow.
But anyway.
So you know, we used to lookforward to his new movie coming
out, etc.
Etc.
He had everything and we alwayssaid, oh man, he's got the
(31:48):
girls, he's got the guitar, he'sgot the looks.
You know he's, he's doing thesemovies at the beach.
By the time he was in his latethirties he was addicted to junk
food, he was on opioids,basically already he died at 42
years old and, uh, and you know,had everything.
To your point, uh, it, it.
It doesn't bring us what we'relooking for.
You know, it doesn't bring us.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
No, there's Christ promised that the only thing
that would fulfill us, thatwould fill us is him.
And to contract someone likeElvis with, say, any of the
saints like Ignatius orAugustine.
Even when they had nothing,even when everything was going
(32:29):
wrong in their life, they stillfound joy, and that, to me, is
the real marker that they foundsomething, that pearl of great
price, Because even when theworld is falling apart around
them, they still find a way tosing Hallelujah.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yes, they do.
Well, I'm going to—near thevery end of the book.
I want to read just somethingvery interesting.
It kind of ties this alltogether, and I am going to
break down and put my glasses onhere, michael.
And so the author is Pietro.
What's his last name?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Di.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Donato.
Okay, so he's the author.
He wrote this book quite awhile ago.
Sophia Institute Press hasupdated, I think, right and
brought it back to the fore,which they did.
A marvelous job with this, I'llmake sure.
I have this book in the.
I'll take a picture of it, makesure I put this up and of
course, we'll have it in theshow notes.
But toward the end it's like aneditor's note, I believe he
(33:22):
said, and this was from oh yeah,here it is author's note from
1962 edition, so from an earlieredition.
So he's going out at the endand he is interviewing people
for this story that he wrote andas he's interviewing priests
and different people that knewAlessandro, and then he gets to
(33:42):
meet Alessandro, but he'sspeaking to peasants and all
kinds of people and he said thisno one spoke.
Now, this is many years afterthis happened.
Right, he's out of prison.
He was in prison for 27 years.
He gets out.
This is many years after thishappened.
Right, he's out of prison.
He was in prison for 27 years.
He gets out.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
This is many years later he's been living with the
Capuchins, right?
How do we say that again?
Like cappuccino without the O.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, yeah, I'm struggling today with these big
words like Capuchin, right.
So, anyways, this is many, manyyears later and the author is
going to interview these peoplethat know the story very well.
But they're looking back andthey say this this is on page
159, if anybody wants toreference this.
(34:24):
When I asked people, no onespoke ill of Alessandro.
They felt sorry for him andsaid that a moment of madness
could come over anyone, for him,and said that a moment of
madness could come over anyone.
Blind passion happens toeverybody and that there are
times variable like the weatherin life, when it is not humanly
possible to resist the devil.
And so all these people thathe's interviewing now look at
(34:47):
this.
It's not an emotional issueanymore.
That was my earlier point ofsaying this is many, many years
later.
So we all look back at this andwe all realize whoo.
Any of us maybe couldn't havecommitted murder like this.
But we all those peopleunderstood, didn't they, that
this is a human condition, thisbattle that we're in, and we're
in a temporal space where youknow this, militant Christi,
(35:10):
soldiers for Christ, we'recalled the church militant for a
reason.
And again, the primary battleSchultz and Nielsen said it so
well, it's fought on theindividual human heart.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
It's fought on the individual human heart.
Amen to that.
It's always a struggle, and Ithink the ultimate message of
Alessandro's life is no matterhow far gone you've gone, no
matter how bad you've done,there's still forgiveness,
there's still grace to be had.
If you're like me and you don'tget to confession as frequently
as you should go, because Godwants to forgive you.
(35:45):
Pope Francis put it well thatGod never tires of forgiving us.
It's we who get tired of asking, and so just keep asking and
keep going, going, because Goddoes want to forgive you and
wants to redeem you.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Yeah, if you look up at the cross, you know at the
end, if you really understandthe cross, that's an act of love
, self-giving love.
John Paul would say when youlook at love and you'll see
mercy.
Right, this is mercy thatyou're explaining being poured
on us.
He said the second word forlove is mercy, and this is what
God does.
This is my body given for you.
If we could all take that inand see the world that way.
(36:21):
And when we see a beautifulwoman, not to pretend like we
don't see the woman, but to saythis is my body given for you, I
want to offer when I see it.
Look, it just happened to methe other day at Costco, you
know, and I'm not a springchicken anymore and I see this
beautiful woman walking towardme.
You know, in the old days Iwould have said, oh please, you
know, I don't want to look atthat, I don't want to.
You know, whatever, but notanymore.
(36:43):
I don't struggle with itanymore.
I actually see the beauty and Ilook at her momentarily.
I I say thank you, god, for thebeauty of that woman and I offer
her up in my prayer and I offera prayer for her and I lift us
up, you know, and it's sobeautiful when that happens and
you think that, well, how manytimes a day do I got to do this?
Well, sometimes it's 100 in thebeginning, and then it's 50,
(37:06):
and then it's 10, and then it'sa couple times a day.
But now, when it happens, Ithank God for that, because he
reminds me of where we're going,the beauty of that, of that,
that, that beauty of Jesushanging on the cross.
This is just a little taste ofhow much he loves us.
To your point, god, who lovesus, wants to shelter, wants to
(37:27):
just pour his mercy on us.
This is just that.
When you see this, when youfeel this, this is a tiny taste
of God's love for us.
It's amazing, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (37:36):
It is amazing.
It's something I think I know.
I get too used to it sometimesthat it just becomes part of the
background noise.
But when you stop and hearstories like this and you really
look at it, you go.
There's no other reaction butgratitude.
That's the only reaction,that's appropriate is thank you,
god, for all these things.
Thank you for Alessandro andthat he was able to share this
(37:59):
story with us, because the worldis a better place with him in
it.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
It is, and let's go out this way.
Can you just talk about therelationship that he had with
Maria Goretti's mother?
That he had with MariaGoretti's mother?
How how already you know.
Talk about that a little bit,because if we can all get to
this point in our lives with you, know, well, I'm going to, I'm
going to give it to you, oh sure.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
You know this is I wrote.
I've written articles aboutlevitating saints at by location
, and that's easier for me tobelieve than this sort of
forgiveness.
It's just beyond belief, but ithappened.
Alessandro, after he gets outof prison I believe in 19, I'm
trying to remember the exactyear 1932.
(38:43):
So he's out of prison.
He gets an invite to the from apriest to come to the parish
where the garettis are.
He knocks on the Goretti's door, falls at the feet of Assunta
and begs her forgiveness intears, and Assunta touches his
face, calls him her son andpromises that she does forgive
(39:04):
him, even says Maria forgave you, I have to forgive you.
And not only that.
That would be unbelievableenough.
They go to communion together.
They frequently have Alessandroover for dinner.
When Assunta died they calledAlessandro and he came to the
funeral.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
They stood together.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I could almost tear up on that.
I am getting tears.
It's just they were ableto—they formed a relationship
not only with Maria's mother,Assunta, but with all of Maria's
siblings.
They became very close to eachother and again, no one would
fault them if they heldvengeance but they forgave and
(39:44):
it showed a better path and abetter way to be human.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yes, yes, yes.
What a beautiful way to kind ofclose this up.
Michael, thank you so much forcoming on.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Thanks everybody for joining us.
We really appreciate it.
Go get the book.
I have it in the show notes.
And again, when you look atbooks like this, it'll speak to
your heart, because this is atimeless story.
And for young people comingjust into the church, say, and
the people that love them, theparents, the grandparents, the
(40:10):
brothers, the sisters that areexcited for them to come into
the church, we have to tell themthat these are timeless battles
.
But we also have to show themthe beauty of the other side,
the beauty, as Michael said sowell, of forgiveness, the beauty
of God's mercy and forgiveness,and it's just such a better way
to live.
This.
Is that, something more thatyou're looking for in your
(40:31):
hearts right.
Hey, thank you everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
Talk to you again soon.
Bye-bye.
Welcome to the Become who you Are podcast, a
production of the John Paul IIRenewal Center, and a special
shout out to the men of Claymore, miletus Christie, all the
young people that have beenjoining us on this show.
As you know, my heart goes out,just like John Paul II's went
out for young people that havebeen joining us on this show.
As you know, my heart goes out,just like John Paul II went out
for young people You've grownup in a twisted, distorted,
toxic culture, repeatedly liedto about the very basics
(00:34):
concerning the meaning of life,human dignity, marriage, the
family, authentic love, the truemeaning of sex and sexuality.
Especially disturbing is thenormalization of pornography.
John Paul II said that theproblem with pornography is not
that it reveals too much, itreveals too little.
It doesn't reveal the person itdoesn't reveal the human heart
(00:55):
who wants and seeks to be loved,not to be used right.
The opposite of love, then, isnot hate.
The opposite of love is lustusing someone for your own ego,
your own selfish desires.
Of course, lust is nothing new.
It's been destroying livesthroughout human history.
I just read an important booktitled I Killed Maria Goretti.
(01:15):
It's a true story of lust,murder and also the story of
forgiveness, redemption,salvation.
In a sense, it's a story of allof us Joining me today to
discuss this crucial topic.
In the book, all the way fromthe Rocky Mountains, is Michael
Likens and it's Likens, right,michael Litchens like kitchens.
Okay, litchens, like kitchens.
(01:37):
I should have asked you beforewe came on, but my audience is
very forgiving.
Michael is an author, editor,researcher with a passion for
the overlooked aspects ofChristian history.
He's a former editor of theCatholic Exchange and everybody
on the show knows that I writequite often for the Catholic
Exchange as well as the StAustin Review.
(01:57):
He's also a frequent guest onradio and television shows on
which he shares strange anddelightful things about our
faith and history.
And shows on which he sharesstrange and delightful things
about our faith and history Withan MA from the University of
Chicago Divinity School and a BAin philosophy.
Michael especially loves readinganything about Augustine and GK
Chesterton.
You can't go wrong with those,michael.
(02:19):
When he's not busy writingabout bone churches, we'll have
to ask him what that is.
In local history, he can befound editing books for authors
or leading tours of oldbuildings in the american west
or in rome.
Follow his writings and otheradventures at m uh and I'm going
to spell this out for people,but I'll put it in the show
notes too m-l-i-c-h-e-n-s dotcom.
Well, I was just on the website.
(02:41):
Michael describes himself as afaith haunted beer critic with a
writing problem.
Michael, I love that.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Thank you so much, Jack.
It's a joy to be with you today.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah.
So tell me a couple things here.
What is a faith-haunted beercritic?
And with that writing problem,give us a little description
when you wrote that down Sure,and also the bone churches.
I want to know what that isSure.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
So I wrote a book called Weird Catholic Handbook.
Yes, I saw that it includes acouple of things, including what
are called auxiliaries, whichare churches that are made out
of bones, and the historicalreason for that was because pure
and simple cemeteries withincity walls in the Middle Ages
would run out of room onoccasion.
So what do you do with all thebones?
In a couple of places, such asin Rome, the monks actually said
(03:30):
we'll take our bones and makeit part of the church, and so
there's a beautiful Capuchincrypt in Rome that has about
5,000 monks who are alldecorated.
Their bones decorate the altars,the chandeliers, everything so
that they are a part of thechurch, and it's also what I
like to call a spiritual gutpunch of memento mori.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yes, yes, yes, michael, you know, when you dig
deep into our faith, you can'tmake this stuff up, can?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
you?
No, you cannot, no, it has tobe true because it's an
adventure.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
It's an adventure.
And what is a beer critic?
What kind of beer do you like?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I love.
I've been to the Czech lands,I've been to Prague and all over
, so I especially love Czechlager.
If we have any Czech listeners.
I love your beer and I love you, so carry on.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Well, thank you for that.
You know, michael, young peopletoday are taught that their
behavior like watching porn,other trash on social media,
anything they're consumingthemselves with materialism,
consumerism.
They don't realize until now.
You know, the guys that we'remeeting realize something's
(04:38):
wrong, michael, and when youfill your mind and your heart
with this toxic stew that thesepoor young people and really my
heart goes out to them, and Iknow John Paul's too it really
affects you, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Absolutely does.
I think we're now starting tounderstand, especially with
social media, having a littledevice in our pocket that can
stream information to us, ornon-information to us, 24 hours
a day.
It takes an effect on people.
It leads to more unhappiness,more anxiety and, as we see in
(05:14):
this book I Killed Maria Gorettiit can lead to some really dark
places quickly.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Why don't you describe a little bit, just to
back up a little bit on thisbook itself?
Give us just a little bit.
You know, I mean St MariaGoretti, I mean just this
beautiful.
You know, let's just say thatshe took a different path than
Alessandro here.
But I'm going to back up andlet you just give us just a
little overview for our audiencethat may not know them.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Sure.
So Maria Goretti was, I believe, the youngest canonized saint
in modern times.
She was 11 years old when shedied.
A very faithful young girl,loving family, worked hard,
peasant farmers and loved theEucharist, loved Jesus.
And one day one of the familiesthat lived with her, the
(06:01):
Serenellis, the youngest boy,alessandro, attempted to seduce
her and then take advantage ofher.
She fought him off, told him ifyou do this, you will go to
hell.
God does not want this.
In response, alessandro stabbedher 14 times with a brush hook
and then went to bed and Mariahad to endure emergency surgery.
(06:24):
This is in 1902, so anesthesiaand medical practice is nowhere
near.
It is today.
And yet, on her deathbed, amongher last words were that she
forgave Alessandro, but morethan that, she wanted to see him
in heaven and she died.
The church declared her amartyr because she died for all
the great virtues you canimagine, and she was canonized
(06:48):
by 1947.
But more miraculously than that, alessandro had a vision of her
while he was serving his prisonsentence and it melted his
hardened heart.
He became a model prisoner,then a model citizen.
When he was released fromprison, begged forgiveness from
Maria's mother and family.
They accepted him as one oftheir own in a show of
(07:11):
forgiveness.
That is unbelievable.
And he died, always having tobear the guilt and the
consequences of what he did.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
But he died a good man.
He died a good man.
You know, this is the oppositesides of the pole right.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
This young guy.
There was a moment in the book,michael.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Early in the book, where Alessandro asked himself
why he could not be like thesimple-minded peasants who
treated sexes casually asrutting beasts, temptations were
starting to come into his mind.
You know, these families werepeasant farmers, right, living
(07:52):
basically together, and MariaGoretti's father had died right
by then.
It was died early, and I thinkAlessandro's mother had died
early.
Yes, she did so these familiescame together to work the farm,
basically to work the farm, andso these temptations started to
go to him.
He knew, though, at that momentthis is why, when we talk to
these young men, this is theClaymore sword behind me,
(08:12):
michael, that's the Claymoresword, miletus Christi.
We know this is the battle ofthe heart.
John Paul would say it's thebattle of the heart, between
love and lust, in essence, andit always starts in the human
heart, in the individual humanheart and essence, and always
starts in the human heart, inthe individual human heart.
And so the reason I bring thisup, michael, is because there's
that moment where he said that Iwish I could be like the
simple-minded peasants whotreated sex as casually as
rutting beasts.
(08:32):
See, something, when he lookedat Maria, he still had a
conscience, you know, he hadthat, something more, that these
young people that are coming inwith us, michael, are sensing
there's got to be something more, something better there.
But at that moment this is thistemptation At that moment you
have to do battle, don't you?
And you can go one of two waysand get led down some wild paths
(08:55):
.
We've all been on those paths,brother.
I can speak from experience.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
No, as a young man, not to the extent that
Alessandro did, but I got intosome really egotistical
philosophies that said, you know, man is the measure of all
things.
We're beyond good and evil,we're the arbiters of morality,
and that's especially as a youngman.
That's a very temptingphilosophy to want to engage in.
It's ultimately fruitless and,as we see with Alessandro, it
(09:25):
can lead to some very dark ideasquickly.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, when those temptations come in.
We're all standing, in a sense,between that tree of the
knowledge of good and evil andwe have to make that decision.
Our sexual desires are powerful.
This is a life force, an energy, life force within us.
It's put there by God becauseyour passions and desires.
The problem is not with ourpassions and desires, of course.
(09:51):
The problem is with ourmisdirected passions and desires
.
This can either shoot you toour destiny, to heaven itself
and find what we're looking forand be a self-giving person, or
we twist it around and thatrocket goes down deep into a
very dark, anxious place.
We deal, michael, with a lot ofyoung people that are anxious,
nervous, depressed, even talkabout suicide, and so this is a
(10:16):
big deal.
This is a big deal.
And so you're standing there,and he's standing there at that
time and this was a crucialmoment, I think when temptation
really again earlier on in thebook, where he says no, I'm
going to be like the beasts, youknow, I'm going to be like
those animals and give in tothis, you know, and it took him
a while.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
It took him a long while and I would say nothing,
but the grace of God could haveovercome his hardened heart.
One of the beautiful thingsabout this book is the author,
pietro di Donato, spent sometime with Alessandro Serenelli
and really got to know his mind.
So the book kind of talks abouthis inner life, the inner
struggles he had, especially thestruggles he had growing up,
(10:59):
but also how his mind led to theerotic literature, to the
horrible philosophies heconsumed and this idea that he
had that he was above reproachand could just give into his
passions willy-nilly.
And it led to the death of an11 year old girl and a horrific
accident like even in our timewe would.
(11:20):
If that happened in ourneighborhood, it would
traumatize us and these thingshappen all the time.
Yes, they happen all the timeactually, yes, they happen all
the time.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I mean, these things are dark.
You know, it's very interestingwhat you just said, that you
know this is a time before theInternet.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
This is the time before these.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
You know, we carried these phones, like you said,
around in our pockets all thetime.
Yet he was reading, at thistime, sensational novels,
articles about crime, lust,passions.
He even read an article aboutsomeone who murdered a young
girl and she was stabbed todeath by this mad lover, and so
he actually carried this out.
(11:56):
This again gets back and weknow this when we fill our minds
and our hearts.
You know, john Paul would callit self-determination, and he
didn't make this up, right, Imean, he brings us to the
tradition of the church, but weco-create ourselves with God,
don't we, michael?
I mean, it's our actions, it'swhat we fill ourselves with, and
we participate in this story.
(12:16):
We didn't create ourselves, butwe co-create who we become,
don't?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
we we do.
We were given free will as agift.
We are not automatons justsimply going about our day.
So, even though we have drivingpassions, things like rage or
lust can really they can controlthe mind in many ways, but
ultimately, we still have thepower over ourselves to make a
determination what do I want tobe?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
And, in addition to free will, we were given reason
and intellect.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And?
But you know, we see this,michael, what's your opinion?
Just to get off this just alittle bit.
You know, not far from that.
Isn't this what's going on inour culture today?
That, you know, when we rejectwhat's true, good and beautiful,
when we become people of, youknow, basically living out this
moral, relativistic life wherethere is no truth, only my truth
(13:05):
or your truth, it's verychaotic.
You know, we become irrationalpeople when we no longer seek
the truth.
We become irrational.
And so often Michael and BishopSheen would talk about this a
lot he said, when you becomeirrational over time it turns to
violence.
And Alessandro said that in thebook.
He said this one time and I'llthrow this back to you.
(13:28):
He said at some point.
So the line was crossed here,right, this is the real life.
He said, the stories offorbidden fruit no longer
nourish them, and it might'vebeen the author that said this,
and self-abuse infuriated him.
So this forbidden fruit, it nolonger nourished him.
I needed more like an addict,right?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
This is no more.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
And the self-abuse.
You know I'm assuming this wasthe pain in his own heart.
It infuriated him, right.
He couldn't fulfill thesedesires he had.
And finally you give in to yourpassions.
You know when you're seekingthe infinite and you're trying
to fill it out with an infinitewith it, with you know, in a
finite space, trying to fill theinfinite desires of our heart
in a finite space.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
It's infuriating to people, right, because they
can't do it no, I think it'svery infuriating, especially in
the modern age that we atalessandro lived in, where we
were promised that theenlightenment.
You know we're now a rational,we're a rational universe and
anything we want or desire tocan be manufactured for us and
mailed to our door by Amazon andthis will bring us ultimate
(14:31):
fulfillment.
And it doesn't.
We see this in the statisticssuicide and depression are at
all high highs, especiallyaround young men, and we know
that people, whether they're myage, in their mid 40s or they're
younger, it's not satisfying,it doesn't fill that hole in our
heart the way that it waspromised, and what does it lead
(14:53):
to but anger and resentment?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I think you're seeing this.
When we have these protests andI'm generalizing here, right,
I'm not knocking every protest.
You know, I grew up in the—Iwas born in the late 50s, but I
grew up in the 60s and the 70swe had plenty of protests and
some of them were violent, youknow, but they didn't start out
that way.
They didn't start with violence.
We had a theme, we had an ideathat, you know, against the war
(15:17):
or whatever, that was Right, butthe sexual revolution was alive
and well.
And the same time we'reprotesting against war, we're
creating war within our ownhearts, you know we got it
twisted.
You know St Maria Goretti andAlessandro.
They were well before us.
But I tell you what you knowthe sexual revolution unleashed
(15:39):
this again.
When we don't understand whatthe beauty of our sexuality, the
beauty of love, man, we can getthrown around, can't we.
And I see this breaking out allover the culture.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Oh, it's hard for it not to break out in the culture
because you know I'm forgettingwho coined the phrase sex sells,
but you know it was a truism ofit sells everything from
shampoo to beer in ourcommercials.
You can't watch a football gamewithout having your lust
triggered in some ways.
It's very much almost to apoint where and it's strange
(16:17):
because it almost devalues sexto a purely base, animalistic
way- To the point, Michael,where we're not even going out
looking for girls anymore.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
These guys are in the basement with porn.
I think this is where that Igot to try to remember that
phrase, you know.
And the self-abuse infuriatedhim.
It's something stuck with mewhen I read that and I go yes,
you know again, these poor youngguys, you know, they become
apathetic to life, life becomesvery dark.
What's the point of all this?
(16:50):
And man, the faith, becomesimportant.
You know, you see this even inthese peasants.
You know that have nothingaround them and still are filled
with joy of the family, ofcooking Just the.
You know they don't take forgranted just a roof over their
heads.
And it's really something whenyou see this twisted and
(17:12):
distorted culture we work with,again, with a lot of young
people, and when they hear thisstory for the first time, you
know theology of the body andthe beauty of our sexuality.
I think it's so important,michael, not to push down these
desires and tell young men andyoung women that these are bad,
because these desires themselveshave been given to us again by
(17:32):
God.
When you open those desires tobe purified, it's like a river.
I think you know Tucker Carlsonhad Bishop Barron on not too
long ago and Bishop Barrondescribed it.
You know something like that hesaid.
You know, this is a river withbanks and within those banks
(17:53):
it's moving, it's beautiful,it's moving fast, but what
happens when those banks breakdown, you know?
And everything just gets, youknow, putrid and apathetic, and
we lose the meaning, and we losethe beauty and the power of
this right and we becomeinverted.
And I think this is all thesethings are going through
Alessandro.
He's living in this marsh area,he's bored, you know, you don't
(18:19):
have air conditioning, youdon't have television, you know
and he's reading this, you knowthis, I don't know.
I can't really call it garbage,but he described it, as you know
, fairly crime-ridden.
You know kind of got him intothese lustful states.
What do we do, michael, in thatstate?
And what happened ultimatelywith Alessandro?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Well, initially, alessandro was completely
unrepentant of his crime.
He murdered an 11-year-old girl, went to bed and then Maria.
After she died, he was, ofcourse, arrested.
The Carabinieri, which were theNational Police of Italy,
(19:05):
dragged him to court and he,even at the insistence of his
lawyer he would not show remorse.
He didn't even want to appealhis sentence.
For him it was a fait.
To complete, it was done.
So what's the point of arguingabout it?
And said something that churnedmy stomach, but just basically,
like she wouldn't have died ifshe just gave in.
That was his attitude, but andthat's what the way he really
felt I, I get a sense of that inthe book, right.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Oh, it was absolutely .
It was absolutely the way hefelt she owes this to me.
I'm showing her attention, I'mgiving her my attention.
Why wouldn't she do this?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, exactly, and that entitlement towards another
person's body is something thatwe almost promote in this
culture, so it's something youknow, everyone's owed.
A pretty woman to have sex withis kind of the message you can
get from our society, and hereit was.
He took that to its fullestextreme, but to show God's grace
(19:58):
and how powerful it is, a fewyears into his sentence, after
he was serving solitaryconfinement, an earthquake
happened in Sicily, where he wasimprisoned, and a few days
later he had a dream of Mariacoming to him, handing him 14
lilies, each representing thestab wounds he gave her, and
they burst into flames when hetook them.
(20:19):
And not only that.
She promised, as she said onher deathbed I forgive you and I
want you in heaven with me.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
We're going to ask you to join us by helping us get
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(20:49):
A couple, a couple things toshare with people love ed.
Love ed is just such aimportant um apostolate, so it's
in within our apostolate, thejohn paul to renewal center.
This helps parents give thetalk to their children.
Uh, we're trying to push backon all these gender ideologies
and the porn culture and givechildren the truth and do it
(21:13):
through their parents, and wehelp them do that.
The other one is really takenoff too.
It's Claymore Miletus Christi,soldiers for Christ.
That's where you see the swordbehind me.
That's the big sword.
That's our logo for Claymore.
That's a Claymore sword.
And this is for young people,especially young men, gen Z,
high school, all the way through, let's call it, till they're 30
(21:38):
years old or so.
They're starting to reallyunderstand that something
nefarious, very toxic, is goingon in the culture, and so
they're stepping into the churchand we're discipling them.
So we want to help get the wordout about those things and,
lastly, consider financiallysupporting us.
Everything's in the show notes.
Hey, god bless you.
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
And this was almost.
It was a Paul on the road toDamascus moment.
He was changed instantly.
Within moments he became amodel prisoner.
He wrote to the bishop.
He said he wanted to do right,he wanted to ask forgiveness
from the family and he knew hewould have to live with this
guilt for the rest of his life.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Close to the people that listen to us, michael, and
again my heart goes out to them,but it just shows you when you
(22:34):
start to read good literature,right?
You start to read scripture, youstart to pray, you start to
open up, and I think this is sopoignant.
This is page 107 in the book.
It was ironic that thecompelling reading habit that
fanned the fire toward crime inthe farmhouse where he was
living now was a wall of solaceand his intimate and richly
(22:58):
rewarding friend.
He realized the fact that theprinted word could be a potent
influence for the activation ofeither good or evil.
And here's the point again.
I should say that again right,the fact that the printed word
could be a potent influence forthe activation of either good or
evil.
It was like a substance takeninto one's being, where putrid
(23:22):
air and food made for illnessand even death, or the opposite,
or the compassion for life.
And so this is how we kind ofstarted this whole thing.
You know, when you fillyourself, you become.
You know, john Paul would say,when you fill yourself with the
good, you go out and do good youbecome good, I am good or we
start to fill ourselves withevil, with sin.
(23:44):
We go out and do sin and even inyour heart, right, jesus said,
you know, matthew 5, 27, 28,even if you look at a woman with
lust in your heart, you'vealready committed adultery and
you always think, wow, thatseems kind of harsh, right.
But the point is here, thepoint is right there.
That's where the sword comes in.
Right at that point oftemptation I don't want to stuff
(24:04):
it down, pretend like itdoesn't exist.
The starvation diet, right when.
Alessandro exploded and heindulged.
And these poor guys that wemeet, addicted to pornography,
so many of them go fromsuppressing to indulging,
suppressing to indulging.
And what we're talking abouthere is a third way to open
(24:25):
those desires to God and allowhim to come into our heart as
becomes an invitation to prayer.
And it's so beautiful when thathappens.
I know in my own life, everymorning I'm tempted with
something you know sloth, or Idon't want to get up, or I don't
want to do, or I'm fearfulbecause I got some new
presentation that I haven't donebefore.
And I go, oh my gosh, you knowI haven't prepared well for this
(24:46):
.
I got to, you know, so I, youget down on your knees and you
open up all those temptations,whatever they are, and uh, and
it's just such a beautiful wayand let God's grace come in and
fill you.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
You ever have that happen, Michael.
Yes, I have, and I've also.
I've been.
I'm not the only one.
No, you're far from the onlyone.
My friend, trust me.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
It's common and I think we need to talk to that,
to young people, about that, youknow, because they don't know,
they're coming back in andsaying, oh my gosh, do I just do
battle with, with all theselusts, because they have these
images, right, and this putrid,you know, and they're getting
the shove down.
We call it.
I did a presentation last nightand we title it stolen
(25:29):
innocence and we do it all overthe all over the state, and it's
, it's what they're doing.
They're robbing the innocenceof children, they're
obliterating their moralimaginations.
And these are young kids that,like, like it, reminds me of a
little Maria Goretti.
She was 11 years old, andthat's what they're doing this
even before they're 11.
Of a little Maria Goretti.
She was 11 years old and that'swhat they're doing this even
before they're 11.
(25:49):
And when you twist and distorta young person's heart like that
, this is evil, this is reallyevil.
They're doing it in theIllinois schools, here, they're
trying to do it in Colorado andthey're succeeding too.
You know, pushing thesenational what they call national
sex ed standards and stuff downto these kids, these gender
ideologies, it's something.
Are you feeling that out there?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I'm not as familiar with the education program.
I'm not surprised, to say theleast, because our whole culture
is basically the way I like todescribe.
It is because we're such aconsumerist culture where we
think we're allowed anything andeverything on demand.
We do that to our sexuality, toour pleasures, and then we
(26:30):
wonder why everyone's messed upwhen they become adults.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And because you're getting into relationships, then
you know you're getting youknow whether you're married or
not, but let's call it.
Let's say you are, let's sayyou get married.
Well, you know, we think thatthis brokenness is just going to
go away.
You know, everybody's lookingfor the right person, but nobody
wants to become the rightperson.
So when you find the rightperson, they either reject you
(26:55):
because you're not what they'relooking for, or the two broken
people which we're all broken,right.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
We're all sinners.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Two broken people get married and they aren't aiming
at Christ on the cross.
They're not aiming at him firstso I can be filled with divine
life and love and then becomethat life and love in the world.
And when you don't do that, youknow I kind of like the evil, I
don't like evil Michael, but Ikind of like that.
It's standing up, it's open.
(27:22):
You know the weeds and thewheat, that parable right, and I
kind of like this you can seeit and that's what these young
people are seeing.
You know, what they did is andI don't know if you're a
political animal or not but theyvoted for Donald Trump, so many
of them and they just felt likesomething had to change.
And he gave them some hope thatmaybe somebody was there
(27:45):
backing them up, you know, butthey didn't know why.
They don't know exactly what'sgoing on.
So this is a great time toevangelize, michael.
So speak to these young peoplefrom your own heart, right from
your own experience.
You're a reader, you've got aphilosophical background.
I can't wait to read some moreof your stuff, but you just seem
like you're full of joy and,look, you're a beer critic.
(28:08):
I drink a little more wine thanbeer, but I love these craft
beers and the IPAs and stuffthat are coming out.
So Christianity is not aPuritanism.
It's not stuffing these thingsdown.
Look, I didn't warn you abouttalking about that kind of stuff
, but let's talk about that alittle bit, because this is not
(28:30):
about not being joyful andtaking pleasures and et cetera,
is it?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
No, and like you said a couple of times, God created
these for us.
They are good for us.
Thank you, you know, withoutyou know, we are given sexual
passion.
Part of it is to bring aboutchildren, one of the greatest
joys in the human race.
This is a good thing God hasgiven us.
The problem is, as Augustinewould point out, is that we can
deface the goodness or we putlower goods above the highest
(28:59):
goods, so suddenly sex becomesmore important than
self-improvement, our salvationand our relationships and things
like that, and then it's stilldisordered in how we approach it
.
So in all of this, what we'relooking for is joy.
I like to use Chesterton'sanalogy that God built us a
playground, but he put a fencearound the playground to protect
(29:21):
us.
So we're not there, we're notimprisoned, we're there to be
protected.
So we're not imprisoned, we'rethere to be protected.
God gave us this vast area toplay in, to have fun, to enjoy
life, but we're not to go beyondthose walls because there is
danger no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And when you start to talk about St Augustine, here's
a man that was a worldly man.
He had all these passions anddesires right he never did marry
the woman that he lived withfor, I think, 15 years.
His only child was a son bornout of wedlock, and so he went
through some of the same thingsright Again.
(30:09):
We get back to our premise inthe beginning that these
temptations are going to whackall of us.
It's what we do with them.
And he's searching, searching.
He wants to build up his ownreputation and then he hears
this crazy who became and Idon't know if he was at that
time Bishop Ambrose, and he justhears that gospel and it
touches something.
(30:30):
It says ooh, ooh, what was that, what was that?
And it touches something.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
It says ooh, ooh, what was that?
Huh, what was that?
No, it was exactly like so manyof those conversion moments,
we're always looking to befulfilled.
We're looking for somethingthat will fill that gap in our
heart that we have, especiallyafter the fall.
And so much of the world I evenread will sometimes read a
biography of a millionaire or abillionaire and they'll talk
about their nice houses, alltheir lavish wealth, and they're
(30:56):
still depressed and it's likewell, if this can't give me
fulfillment, what can?
Speaker 1 (31:01):
What can you know?
I love the same thing when Ispeak to engaged couples, which
I'll be doing this Saturday forour diocese and we unpack
theology.
I love to give examples ofpeople that have it, that had it
all right All the money, allthe fame, all the girls, all the
talents that they have.
And again, I don't like evil, Idon't like bad things to happen
(31:25):
to people, but they're nothappy, they're on drugs.
Some of them have killedthemselves.
You know, when I was a kid andI don't know, do you remember
Elvis Presley?
Yeah, oh, yes, yeah.
And so it's amazing, when I'mspeaking to young people they
still know Elvis somehow.
But anyway.
So you know, we used to lookforward to his new movie coming
out, etc.
Etc.
He had everything and we alwayssaid, oh man, he's got the
(31:48):
girls, he's got the guitar, he'sgot the looks.
You know he's, he's doing thesemovies at the beach.
By the time he was in his latethirties he was addicted to junk
food, he was on opioids,basically already he died at 42
years old and, uh, and you know,had everything.
To your point, uh, it, it.
It doesn't bring us what we'relooking for.
You know, it doesn't bring us.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
No, there's Christ promised that the only thing
that would fulfill us, thatwould fill us is him.
And to contract someone likeElvis with, say, any of the
saints like Ignatius orAugustine.
Even when they had nothing,even when everything was going
(32:29):
wrong in their life, they stillfound joy, and that, to me, is
the real marker that they foundsomething, that pearl of great
price, Because even when theworld is falling apart around
them, they still find a way tosing Hallelujah.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yes, they do.
Well, I'm going to—near thevery end of the book.
I want to read just somethingvery interesting.
It kind of ties this alltogether, and I am going to
break down and put my glasses onhere, michael.
And so the author is Pietro.
What's his last name?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Di.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Donato.
Okay, so he's the author.
He wrote this book quite awhile ago.
Sophia Institute Press hasupdated, I think, right and
brought it back to the fore,which they did.
A marvelous job with this, I'llmake sure.
I have this book in the.
I'll take a picture of it, makesure I put this up and of
course, we'll have it in theshow notes.
But toward the end it's like aneditor's note, I believe he
(33:22):
said, and this was from oh yeah,here it is author's note from
1962 edition, so from an earlieredition.
So he's going out at the endand he is interviewing people
for this story that he wrote andas he's interviewing priests
and different people that knewAlessandro, and then he gets to
(33:42):
meet Alessandro, but he'sspeaking to peasants and all
kinds of people and he said thisno one spoke.
Now, this is many years afterthis happened.
Right, he's out of prison.
He was in prison for 27 years.
He gets out.
This is many years after thishappened.
Right, he's out of prison.
He was in prison for 27 years.
He gets out.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
This is many years later he's been living with the
Capuchins, right?
How do we say that again?
Like cappuccino without the O.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, yeah, I'm struggling today with these big
words like Capuchin, right.
So, anyways, this is many, manyyears later and the author is
going to interview these peoplethat know the story very well.
But they're looking back andthey say this this is on page
159, if anybody wants toreference this.
(34:24):
When I asked people, no onespoke ill of Alessandro.
They felt sorry for him andsaid that a moment of madness
could come over anyone, for him,and said that a moment of
madness could come over anyone.
Blind passion happens toeverybody and that there are
times variable like the weatherin life, when it is not humanly
possible to resist the devil.
And so all these people thathe's interviewing now look at
(34:47):
this.
It's not an emotional issueanymore.
That was my earlier point ofsaying this is many, many years
later.
So we all look back at this andwe all realize whoo.
Any of us maybe couldn't havecommitted murder like this.
But we all those peopleunderstood, didn't they, that
this is a human condition, thisbattle that we're in, and we're
in a temporal space where youknow this, militant Christi,
(35:10):
soldiers for Christ, we'recalled the church militant for a
reason.
And again, the primary battleSchultz and Nielsen said it so
well, it's fought on theindividual human heart.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
It's fought on the individual human heart.
Amen to that.
It's always a struggle, and Ithink the ultimate message of
Alessandro's life is no matterhow far gone you've gone, no
matter how bad you've done,there's still forgiveness,
there's still grace to be had.
If you're like me and you don'tget to confession as frequently
as you should go, because Godwants to forgive you.
(35:45):
Pope Francis put it well thatGod never tires of forgiving us.
It's we who get tired of asking, and so just keep asking and
keep going, going, because Goddoes want to forgive you and
wants to redeem you.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Yeah, if you look up at the cross, you know at the
end, if you really understandthe cross, that's an act of love
, self-giving love.
John Paul would say when youlook at love and you'll see
mercy.
Right, this is mercy thatyou're explaining being poured
on us.
He said the second word forlove is mercy, and this is what
God does.
This is my body given for you.
If we could all take that inand see the world that way.
(36:21):
And when we see a beautifulwoman, not to pretend like we
don't see the woman, but to saythis is my body given for you, I
want to offer when I see it.
Look, it just happened to methe other day at Costco, you
know, and I'm not a springchicken anymore and I see this
beautiful woman walking towardme.
You know, in the old days Iwould have said, oh please, you
know, I don't want to look atthat, I don't want to.
You know, whatever, but notanymore.
(36:43):
I don't struggle with itanymore.
I actually see the beauty and Ilook at her momentarily.
I I say thank you, god, for thebeauty of that woman and I offer
her up in my prayer and I offera prayer for her and I lift us
up, you know, and it's sobeautiful when that happens and
you think that, well, how manytimes a day do I got to do this?
Well, sometimes it's 100 in thebeginning, and then it's 50,
(37:06):
and then it's 10, and then it'sa couple times a day.
But now, when it happens, Ithank God for that, because he
reminds me of where we're going,the beauty of that, of that,
that, that beauty of Jesushanging on the cross.
This is just a little taste ofhow much he loves us.
To your point, god, who lovesus, wants to shelter, wants to
(37:27):
just pour his mercy on us.
This is just that.
When you see this, when youfeel this, this is a tiny taste
of God's love for us.
It's amazing, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (37:36):
It is amazing.
It's something I think I know.
I get too used to it sometimesthat it just becomes part of the
background noise.
But when you stop and hearstories like this and you really
look at it, you go.
There's no other reaction butgratitude.
That's the only reaction,that's appropriate is thank you,
god, for all these things.
Thank you for Alessandro andthat he was able to share this
(37:59):
story with us, because the worldis a better place with him in
it.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
It is, and let's go out this way.
Can you just talk about therelationship that he had with
Maria Goretti's mother?
That he had with MariaGoretti's mother?
How how already you know.
Talk about that a little bit,because if we can all get to
this point in our lives with you, know, well, I'm going to, I'm
going to give it to you, oh sure.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
You know this is I wrote.
I've written articles aboutlevitating saints at by location
, and that's easier for me tobelieve than this sort of
forgiveness.
It's just beyond belief, but ithappened.
Alessandro, after he gets outof prison I believe in 19, I'm
trying to remember the exactyear 1932.
(38:43):
So he's out of prison.
He gets an invite to the from apriest to come to the parish
where the garettis are.
He knocks on the Goretti's door, falls at the feet of Assunta
and begs her forgiveness intears, and Assunta touches his
face, calls him her son andpromises that she does forgive
(39:04):
him, even says Maria forgave you, I have to forgive you.
And not only that.
That would be unbelievableenough.
They go to communion together.
They frequently have Alessandroover for dinner.
When Assunta died they calledAlessandro and he came to the
funeral.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
They stood together.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I could almost tear up on that.
I am getting tears.
It's just they were ableto—they formed a relationship
not only with Maria's mother,Assunta, but with all of Maria's
siblings.
They became very close to eachother and again, no one would
fault them if they heldvengeance but they forgave and
(39:44):
it showed a better path and abetter way to be human.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yes, yes, yes.
What a beautiful way to kind ofclose this up.
Michael, thank you so much forcoming on.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Thanks everybody for joining us.
We really appreciate it.
Go get the book.
I have it in the show notes.
And again, when you look atbooks like this, it'll speak to
your heart, because this is atimeless story.
And for young people comingjust into the church, say, and
the people that love them, theparents, the grandparents, the
(40:10):
brothers, the sisters that areexcited for them to come into
the church, we have to tell themthat these are timeless battles
.
But we also have to show themthe beauty of the other side,
the beauty, as Michael said sowell, of forgiveness, the beauty
of God's mercy and forgiveness,and it's just such a better way
to live.
This.
Is that, something more thatyou're looking for in your
(40:31):
hearts right.
Hey, thank you everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
Talk to you again soon.
Bye-bye.
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