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What if your deepest desires—even the ones that sometimes feel overwhelming or confusing—weren't obstacles to overcome but rocket fuel for your spiritual journey? In this profound exploration of authentic masculinity, Jack and Mark Schmitt unpack how the Claymore Battle Plan helps men redirect their passions toward their divine purpose.
Drawing from Jack's childhood memories of adventure, battle, and beauty, we discover how these core masculine themes reflect our deepest spiritual longings. That magnetic pull toward beauty you've experienced? It's actually a divine spark designed to draw you out of yourself and into communion with God.
The conversation takes a practical turn as Jack and Mark address the daily battlefield of the human heart. Rather than repressing desires or indulging them, they offer a third way: opening our passions to God and allowing Him to transform them. When you notice beauty that stirs something in you—whether a person or anything that awakens longing—you can immediately redirect that spark toward gratitude and prayer.
This approach reveals an extraordinary truth: your temptations aren't roadblocks to sanctity but can set you on the very path itself.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome to the Become who you Are podcast, a
production of the John Paul IIRenewal Center.
I'm Jack Riggert, your host.
Welcome, especially to Claymore.
These are the young guys thatwe've been working with.
That's the big Claymore swordbehind me.
It's good to be with you.
It's good to be with MarkSchmidt back for another session
.
Really, we did a little reset,didn't we, mark?
(00:32):
And so last week, last Friday,was number one, claymore number
one, you'll see in the title,and so this is session number
two.
So for all the guys joining us,some new material.
Of course, we're alwaysbringing over from a book that
I'm writing, so we want to makesure we touch all the different
points and, mark, it's good tobe with you Always a pleasure to
(00:55):
be with this great communityand looking forward to diving
through Claymore again.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
You know, as I've been thinking about Claymore as
we were preparing to sit down,something that came to mind that
I wanted to kind of start usoff with this morning was a
baseball analogy that I hadheard from Bishop Barron.
He said you know so if you'retrying to teach someone the game
of baseball, one approach isyou could just sit him down, go
(01:21):
through all the rules of thegame, the positions, etc.
Go through all the rules of thegame, the positions, etc.
Another option is you bringthat person to a game at Wrigley
Field.
You know, you let themexperience the smell of the
stadium, the sounds.
You get to watch the playersclosely, allow them to study the
game.
You know, you give them anopportunity to really experience
and fall in love with baseball.
(01:42):
And I think we can allrecognize that going to the
stadium is a much different andricher experience of baseball
versus just sitting down andexplaining the rule book to
someone.
And this is why Claymore is soimportant.
It's because it's not justabout information.
(02:04):
Claymore is meant to bring youinto the stadium.
It's meant to bring you to adeeper love and union with the
person of Jesus Christ, and sothat we can become the men that
he has created us to be.
We've talked about this, youtalk about this all the time.
There is a crisis inmasculinity, of just being an
(02:24):
authentic human being, the wayGod has created us.
You know St Irenaeus.
He said the glory of God is manfully alive.
And so the question then iswell, how do we do this?
You know, how do we becomefully alive?
Where does Claymore step in andfill this gap?
And so, you know, jack, you'veoutlined and I'm just going to
kind of go through these quicklyhere as we get into the episode
(02:48):
today but really three steps intaking back the territory for
Christ becoming fully alive.
So step one is restoring thedignity of the human person, you
know, and understanding what itmeans to actually be human, and
we need to recognize that wehave been made in the image and
likeness of God and that we aremade by a God of love who
(03:12):
desires us to be filled with hislove so that we can then become
people of love.
And so step two is restoringmarriage in the family.
So, now that we have beenfilled and received this divine
love from God.
We then have to become a giftand pour ourselves out to others
and bringing God's love intothe world, into our homes, those
(03:34):
closest to us.
You know one of my favoritequotes from Mother Teresa if you
want to change the world, gohome and love your family.
How crucial it is the buildingblock of society to bring that
love of God into your home.
And then step three is now we'regetting out into the culture.
It's that socio-politicalactivism, it's answering
Christ's call to go out into thevineyard to bring the light of
(03:56):
our faith into our communities,the world around us.
And so those are just kind of aquick summary of these three
steps.
But you know, on the website,the John Paul II Renewal Center,
under the resource tab, you candownload the Claymore Battle
Plan and there's furtherspiritual theological formation
We'll get into this over thecourse of the weeks of all that
(04:17):
Claymore entails.
But the last thing before wereally dive in today is I want
to highlight is Claymore ismeant to be done in the context
of discipleship and friendship.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
You know, this isn't just you alone.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, you alone in your house.
You know my football coach incollege.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Well, again that analogy comes back.
You know, when you step intothe arena with other people, you
actually stepped back into thestadium again to watch the game.
You know, if you're just homeby yourself, that's not the same
thing.
You're really making thatconnection to the outside, with
with life, with other people.
You're at the game now.
You're at the game with others,you know we're social beings,
(04:58):
the way God created.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
We're meant for relationship, we're meant for
community and also justrecognizing, recognizing how,
how important it is forsurrounding ourselves with the
right people.
You know our as I was saying,our football coach in college.
He would say you know you arewho you surround yourself with.
You know you need to surroundyourself with good, other
like-minded men who are allstriving to be Saints.
(05:19):
So that's kind of a littleintro here, but, jack, I'll toss
it.
I'll toss it back to you.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
We start with our hearts, right With our own
hearts, with our own passionsand desires.
This is what makes it soimportant.
This is how you really comeinto the story.
You don't come into somebodyelse's story and say, okay,
where's my heart at, especiallywhat Plato would call eros,
these great sensual desires.
But they're also desires forwhat's true, good and beautiful.
(05:45):
Again, this is moving yououtside of yourself and allowing
those desires to move you intoarena and say you know what's
this all about?
It's when you connect thosedesires to the gospel this is
what John Paul II said Then youhave that aha moment, you go ooh
.
Yes, you know, I was born on thesouth side of Chicago.
I was the oldest of five boysand I remember so well, by the
(06:08):
time I was in second grade wehad moved into this upper floor
apartment of my grandparents'two flat and they lived below us
, and in the back we had a smallyard that opened up to our
alley, and that alley, for us asyoung boys, was the main artery
to the rest of the world.
And it was here, in that alley,that my brothers and I awakened
(06:28):
to the three core themes builtinto the DNA of every man that
life is supposed to be anadventure, that it's going to be
a battle and the meaning behindit all is beauty, especially
the beauty of love.
You know, one day I wasunlocking that gate and my
brothers were right behind usand we had our swords and our
(06:49):
plastic guns.
You know, we're getting readyfor battle, we're going to go
out on that adventure.
And as I unlocked the gate thatwould bring us back to the
alley, all of us eager foraction, right.
And then I heard these angelicvoices coming down the alley.
And there they were, and theywere beautiful, two girls,
(07:09):
probably in fourth or fifthgrade, but to my second grade
heart they carried somethingwords alone can't capture.
I felt, probably for the firsttime, the mysterious magnetic
power that the beauty of a womancan have on a man's heart, a
power, again, like we saidearlier, that draws you out of
yourself.
And even my younger brothersensed something was happening,
(07:32):
and no one tried to shove pastme or asked why I'd stopped.
One of them even gave a littlewave and the girls glanced over,
smiled politely at us and thendisappeared down the alley,
unaware probably of the effectthey were having on us.
Well, we soon discovered, mark,that those twins lived a few
blocks down from us on the topof a three flat.
(07:52):
From then on, every one of ouradventures began in that
direction.
In fact, the building became acastle, ruled by an evil knight
holding those princess twinscaptive.
And we would come together andwe would storm the outer doors
of that apartment, which was nowa castle.
We'd fight our way up thestairwell, you know, after one
(08:15):
black knight, after anothercoming after us, and we would
rescue them in a dramaticfashion again and again, and
over the summer we must haverescued those twins dozens of
times, and the tragedy, ofcourse, was that they never knew
they were being rescued right,they never heard us, they never
knew, but it didn't matter to usbecause this was chivalry at
the finest.
(08:35):
And at the same time I wanted tobe a missionary priest.
I wrote by snail mail in thosedays, no emails To every
religious order I could find.
It sent missionaries to far-offplaces like Tanzania, shenyanga
and the Congo, and I longed tobe part of this adventure too,
this battle, and even as a boy,especially at mass, I sensed
that this also was about beauty.
This was the beauty of thesacred, and somehow, in my
(08:59):
second grade mind, I was holdingtogether some pretty profound
theology I would find later on Ididn't have and feel any
conflict between my attractionto those twin sisters and the
attraction to the sacred.
Both stirred in me a deeplonging for beauty and mystery,
and later I would learn that Iwas touching the very frame of
the biblical love story, whichcould be summed up in just five
(09:23):
words God wants to marry us, godwants to marry us, god wants to
marry us.
It's an amazing relationshipand this is that intimacy, mark,
that you were talking aboutearlier on.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
It's an amazingly profound summary of the gospel
and I remember hearing that forthe first time.
And you know John Paul II, Ithink, did such a beautiful job
explaining this.
You know that this love story,his love story, is inscribed in
our hearts and it's stamped intoour bodies so that we can make
(09:58):
it visible in the creative world.
You know, to quote John Paul II, he said the body alone, and it
alone, is capable of makingvisible what is invisible, the
spiritual and the divine.
You know, it was created totransfer into the visible
reality of the world theinvisible mystery hidden in God
(10:20):
from the time immemorial, andthus to be a sign of it.
You know, think about it thatthe Bible opens with the
marriage in an earthly paradisewe got these two bookends in
Adam and Eve and Genesis and itcloses with the marriage in a
(10:40):
heavenly paradise Christ and thechurch in Revelation and Jack.
Who is the church?
You know it's you, you and I.
We are.
(11:06):
And so I think, as we kind ofdelve deeper into this mystery,
one thing I want to just pointout here, on the onset here is
due to original sin, the dailysubjective experiences there's
constantly these temptations todoubt, to anxiety, that this
story is too good, too good tobe true, like this amazing
reality that the infinite goddesires to marry us, to be in
perfect communion with us, thatgod, a trinitarian community and
perfect communion of love,desires us to enter into that
communion for eternity, you know, in eternity now, with him, and
and so just wrestling with thatand realizing that that
temptation is there, and that'swhy it's so important that we
(11:29):
know the truth and proclaim thetruth that this is the reality,
that God truly longs for us andhe put that desire there.
You know, something I've beenthinking about is how are we, as
finite human beings, how do wehave that capacity for infinite
longing, for infinite love?
It's because God put that there.
That's a gift, that's a seed heplanted in each of us, that
(11:52):
he's drawing us to himself whenyou think about those twin
sisters that I mentioned.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
You know that spark, that's a divine spark, like you
said, within the human heart andthat was given to us by design,
and this is why it's soimportant.
I've heard you say many timesthat Satan doesn't have his own
clay.
He would love to just twist anddistort those passions and
desires Instead of seeing themas the spark where love can come
(12:22):
into the story, where you liftone another up as a gift you're
giving to one another, you turnit around and you use them.
And this is the culture we'rein today.
We're using one another.
It's really sad.
Somebody said to me just and ithappens all the time just
recently said to me okay, jack,where is this God?
You know, where is he?
(12:43):
Why don't we see him?
I said, well, first of all, he,you know, we did see him Christ
was, is incarnate.
I mean, this is the logic ofour faith.
You know, a man born of a womanwalks into the story of history.
He's not only murdered, he'sresurrected.
Without the resurrection,without that live person coming
back into the story, you wouldnever even have our Christian
(13:05):
faith.
But here's the other bookend ofthat when somebody says, where
is this God.
Today we are to be that personof love, we are to bring God's
love in, and so that's reallythe beauty of our Christian
faith.
That's why marriage and thefamily whether you get married
and have a family or not, youstill need to know that image,
(13:25):
because that's that Trinitarianimage, that reflection of God in
the world, and that's important, because if love is going to
get into the world, we have tobring it in, be filled with
divine life and love, and thenbring it into the world.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
This is something that all of us could do.
I still remember, Jack and I'veshared this before but sitting
being introduced to Theology ofthe Body, sitting down for the
first time and reading Theologyof the Body for Beginners by
Christopher West was not areader at any point in my life
(13:59):
up till then and I could not putthis book down.
I read the whole thing in onesitting and I felt like, as I
was reading, that the scalesfell from my eyes and I was
seeing reality for the first.
It just it hit me.
It was an absolute moment ofgrace.
But that God is love and we aremade in the image and likeness
of God.
We are made for this love andif we want peace and joy, if we
(14:21):
want to thrive, if we want tobecome fully alive, that is only
possible in the measure inwhich we give ourselves away, in
which we pour ourselves out, inthe way that our life looks
like Christ hanging on the cross, and so I'm single at this
point.
But to your point, you don'thave to be married to live this
out.
It is to each and every personwhen you meet.
(14:42):
I remember the conviction I'mone of five, with four sisters
was I need to love my sistersbetter, I need to love my
parents better, I need to loveevery person around me better,
and so the exciting thing is,this adventure is available to
every person, no matter whatstage in life you are at.
Every day, you haveopportunities to pour yourself
(15:03):
out and to bring to receiveGod's love and pour that out to
those around you.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
You know GK Chesterton, I always laugh when
he's talking about your foursisters and your family.
And you know this is again notbrain surgery.
You know, love God and loveyour neighbor.
But he said, you know, go homeand love your family, just like
Mother Teresa said.
And he said, and that's whyChrist said, love your enemies
and pray for them.
You know, because he said, whenyou go home, a lot of times
(15:32):
those family members are yourenemies and the people that you
love at the same time.
I mean, you know, if you thinkabout it, we don't treat anybody
as bad as sometimes as we treatour own family right sure but
here's christ, comes back intothe story and get back to, kind
of, our analogy here.
In ephesians 5, 31, 32, johnpaul said this is the summa, or
(15:54):
the summary, right, of thiswhole teaching that he did, and
he took it right out of St Paul.
When St Paul said for thisreason, a man shall leave his
father and mother and be joinedto his wife and the two shall
become one flesh.
He's talking about sexual unionhere and he said this is a
great mystery, and I mean inreference to Christ and the
church.
It's Jesus himself, hanging onthe cross, that left his
(16:16):
heavenly father and his earthlymother to become one flesh with
us, to give his life away to us.
And so he's saying you know,this spark, this divine spark,
even the intimate union of a manand a woman open to life, right
is the third person, right, thetwo become one and there's a
love bomb explosion.
There's actually three personsin one, reflecting Trinity,
(16:38):
right Father, son and HolySpirit.
Well, here's Christ, theincarnate bridegroom, come down
and he's going to pour his lifeout for the church.
Who is us?
We're the church.
And so he's pouring his lifeout.
So this is the bridegroomgiving his life to the bride and
, in a sense, sometimes it'shard for men to say what do you
(16:58):
mean In the analogy?
I'm the bride.
Yeah, we are only the bridethat we're receiving love.
Right, he's pouring it out,we're receiving it just like a
bride would be receiving herhusband's love, and then you
receive in a giving way and hegives in a receiving way.
You have this flow of love andthen this fruit comes out and
that fruit is going out andloving others.
(17:21):
You know, and until you stepinto the story and here's the
last point I'll make right now,just because it's in my mind
when you said earlier, you knowit's very hard for us to think
that this God of the universeactually wants an intimate
relationship with us.
But every man that I meet thatreally is on fire for God, for
(17:43):
others, has had a personalencounter with God.
A personal encounter, I mean,they know it.
They could tell you what day itwas.
Sometimes it's multiple times.
I certainly can.
I remember the story that Ijust told you as I look back.
That was one of the firstsparks, but I've had a number of
encounters along the way and Ikeep telling those stories over
(18:04):
and over again, because we allhave a specific story or series
of stories that says, yep, godwalked right in, I saw him, I
felt him, I know who he is, youknow.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Well, I think you know, going back to this
intimacy, when we God you knowhe hides himself in one way, but
in another way he does it inthe sense of the Eucharist,
right, how the Eucharist tiesinto this reality that he is
always desiring union with us.
And I remember when I learnedthis the first time, when we
(18:37):
were talking about theseparallels here between the
earthly marriage and theheavenly marriage.
And you know, you look at ourearthly marriage here, you know,
you stand on the altar withyour bride, you commit yourself
totally to her with your words,and then God gives us the great
gift of sex and marriage, whichis a way that we recommit our
(18:58):
wedding vows over and over againwith our bride.
And so you look at that and youthink, well, now let's bring in
the heavenly marriage, whereChrist, you know Fulton Sheen
said he laid on the marriage bedof the cross and he consummates
this marriage with the churchof laying down his life.
And just like in our earthlymarriage, where we have this
(19:19):
ability to come into intimacywith our bride and recommit our
wedding vows with our bodies,well, how do we do that?
How does Christ offer us that?
But this intimacy, thisphysical intimacy of the
Eucharist, where the Eucharistis a way that God, where God is
looking to pour himself out tous and have that union and
(19:57):
intimacy with us, regardless ofwhat we feel.
We know concretely.
He's revealed this to us indivine revelation that he is
present in the Eucharist andhe's longing to be one with us.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It's so hard in today's time, when I'm speaking
to young people, to grasp whatyou just said, because you're
almost saying that the sexualunion of a man and a woman, when
all the smoke and fog clears,is pointing directly at the
Eucharist and God's desire,jesus' desire to be one flesh
with us.
But that's exactly what's goingon and what's happening here.
(20:34):
You know, god is not a sexualbeing.
You know, like you said, thisis a sacramental act, right, but
we're entering into an intimatecommunion and union.
I know this myself from my ownexperiences.
You know this personal,intimate union that Christ wants
with us.
But see, you know we'reCatholic and the beauty of it.
You can say sex and God in thesame sentence.
(20:56):
And here's the point.
You know, god thinks our humansexuality is beautiful.
He created it.
It's so lofty Our humansexuality, if understood, when a
man and a woman come togetheragain, open to life, right, this
beautiful, passionate, uh, love.
You know, you think about, youknow two people really give,
(21:18):
really they get it and reallyare pouring themselves out to
one another and this reallyecstasy of, of love, this is
pointing directly at, it is asign.
It's a tiny sign, but it's asign that we enter into.
For us it's not tiny, it's abig deal and it points directly
again at God's desire to be onewith us.
(21:39):
In fact, that's where we'regoing.
We'll get to that in futureepisodes, but that's exactly
where we're going.
You know I work with guys and Iknow you do too that have been
addicted to pornography,same-sex attractions, all these
gender ideologies and the beautyof it is, if properly
understood and untwisted, andjust relax and take a deep
(22:01):
breath and open those desires upto God, you will actually be
filled over time.
And this is why it's soimportant, mark, and it's right
in the battle plan.
First thing in the morning,first thing in the morning,
before you look at that phone,drop to your knees, let it be
done to me.
According to your word, you'rejust kneeling with our Blessed
Mother opening your heart Verypractical thing to do and then I
(22:24):
always hear our Blessed Mothersay you know, at the wedding
feast of Cana, do whatever hetells you.
Now I open it up and I'mlistening for him.
But the second point istemptation is not a sin and all
these temptations a lot ofsexual temptations, but also
sloth I don't want to get up.
I don't want to do this.
Oh, I'm fearful, you know, andit's hard.
(22:45):
I don't hate my boss and I gotto go to work, but all those
temptations, I just open thoseup and allow those to go right
into the heart of Christ andcome into my heart.
It's amazing how that works.
It's really beautiful.
And then the third thing is justget up and love the next person
, you see, and whoever that is.
If it's your wife, if it's yourkids, if it's the cashier down
(23:08):
the street, it doesn't matter.
If it's that boss, you don'thave to like your boss.
But you can really relax if youcan just say no, I don't have
to like your boss, but you canreally relax if you can just say
no, I don't like him or her.
But I'm called to love themanyways.
Still treat them with respect,man.
It takes the pressure off ofyou, right, and they might still
(23:29):
be a jerk or whatever, but youknow, I don't like them but I
love them.
And you know, until I getanother job, I get out of there.
Why am I going to beat myselfup every day and be all nervous
about this schmuck?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
right Love him.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Maybe he'll change.
Even you know.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, I think, just on a practical note too, I think
it's that understanding of justcontrolling what we can control
, right, we cannot control thatother person, but we can control
being that person of love.
You know, when we stand beforeGod at the end of our life,
we're not held accountable forwhat our boss did, or what our
sister or brother did, or ourspouse did, even to some degree,
(24:02):
but we are standing.
Well, how did you respond?
You know, and I rememberreading one of the spiritual,
something from Jacques Philippe,and he said you know, the
spiritual mature person movesfrom the question of why me to
God.
How do you want me to respond?
Right, how do you want me torespond?
And that's someone who's reallytaking ownership of their life,
(24:23):
answering the call.
They know their human dignity,they know the call of love and
it's saying how can I bring loveinto this situation?
How can I sacrifice?
And they're not being tossedlike the waves at the sea by the
external circumstances, buttheir foundation comes from what
they've been filled with, whichno one can touch, no one can
take that from you, this divinelove that's been poured into us
(24:46):
and St Catherine of Siena and StTeresa of Avila, st Therese of
Lisieux, padre Pio.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
St Teresa of Avila, st Therese of Lisieux, padre Pio
, bishop Sheen We've beentalking about this St John of
the Cross and they always aretouched by this eros.
This, you know.
They become mad with this lovefor God, you know, and mad in a
good way, you know.
I mean like a madness takesover them.
You know, plato called thateros Again, that's that Greek
(25:12):
god of love and the Romans hadCupid Cupid remember the little
guy with the arrow man and itwould pierce your heart.
This is what we're talkingabout.
When I saw those twins for thefirst time and this would happen
over and over again when Irealized later on that that was
the spark given to me by God,that this incredible like, oh,
(25:34):
she's beautiful.
You have those stunning momentsin your life, maybe the first
time you meet that special girlin your life.
I always laugh.
I go to Costco every once in awhile and I'll see a beautiful
woman coming at me down theaisle, and still to today.
But the beauty of it is I don'tturn it around into a situation
(25:55):
where I go, you know, I startto imagine lusting after her or
whatever.
I just right away, I see thatand I'm and my down, just like
I'm down on my knees in themorning, and I open that desire
and I'll try to stuff it down.
I don't stand there and try toindulge it because that'll drive
me crazy, man, after a while.
Right, it's a waste of time.
So I open that right away.
(26:16):
Thank you, jesus, for thebeauty of that woman, thank you
for touching my heart again andreminding that you are the one
that ultimately loves me, thatspark I'm feeling.
Thank you for that spark,because you just reminded me
again about this intimate lovehe has for us and I pray for
that woman.
I pray with right.
(26:36):
I see her and I go, oh, thankyou for that, and I say a prayer
for her.
It's amazing, over the well now, years and years and years, but
even over a few weeks, you'llstart to feel something
different.
You know, Because then here'sthe last part I'll make Because
everything that you said earliertoo, we determine who we become
by these thoughts.
We are co-creating our ownlives with God.
(27:07):
We came into a story, but everytime I say yes to the good and I
do the good, john Paul wouldsay, I become good, I am good,
and when you do that, you startto find more peace, more joy,
joy.
And when you do that, you startto find more peace, more joy,
joy.
It's very, very important.
And every time I, I lust and Iturn in selfishly, I look at
porn instead of going out anddoing good things in the world.
I actually do evil to myselfand as I do evil, I actually
(27:28):
become evil.
It's amazing, you know, I, Icome into myself, I change and
over time if you don't get outof that, over time I actually
become evil.
And here I'll give you thisexample.
Some time ago, a guy that I knowpretty well got into this
relationship.
He had gotten divorced, gotinto this relationship with this
woman and she got pregnant.
(27:50):
Now here's a good Catholic mantrying to live this thing out,
but then he falls for this girl.
They're not married, they starta sexual liaison, she gets
pregnant and they end up gettingan abortion.
So here's this guy thatconsidered himself a good
Catholic, talked about it allthe time, knew his faith,
(28:11):
murdering a child.
He became part of murdering achild.
This will be on his conscienceand on her conscience forever.
So this is what I mean Now.
Did he become.
He did an evil act.
If he's not careful, you know,doesn't confess that, really
start to turn it around and hesteps, stays down that path.
It over time, he, he willchange and he will become much
(28:36):
more selfish person.
Uh, there'll be a disconnect.
Sin is always a disconnectbetween the relationship between
God and myself.
I put up a barrier there and um, and you change.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
This is the convicting reality.
You know that we, you knowasking my own self every day.
You know we're not, it's notneutral territory, we're not
just stagnant.
We can grow in virtue, we cangrow in vice.
And it's an every day, it's abattle.
We have to pick up our crossdaily and we have to look at
ourselves and say what parts ofmy life have I not surrendered
(29:11):
to God?
You know, where am I grasping?
Where have I turned intoselfishness?
How am I not emptying myself?
What parts of my life do notlook like Jesus hanging on the
cross, pouring myself for others?
And it's humbling because youhear these stories and you think
there I go, but for the graceof God, right, it's all possible
(29:31):
.
You know we have to staygrafted right.
Jesus says I'm the vine, youare the branches.
If we pull away from that, ifwe pull out.
That's why the battle plan is soimportant with Claymore,
because it's not justinformation, we're not just here
telling you you know, god isreal, jesus is real.
Go on with the rest of yourlife.
We're saying you need to takethis in and transform your
(29:54):
entire life, because theconsequences are enormous.
You know, the older I get, jack, and I'm coming up on six years
of marriage, three young kids,and I don't have all the answers
.
That's one thing I've learned.
I definitely don't have all theanswers, but what I have
learned for sure is that if Imyself do not strive for
(30:14):
sainthood, I can wreak havoc inthe lives of my wife and my
children.
If I do not become who God iscalling me to be.
If I don't become fully alive,if I don't become this person of
love, who do I pour that out onmy children, my wife.
They need me to be a saint.
They need me to keep growing invirtue and you see the painful
(30:38):
consequences when you don't,when you slip up, when you turn
into anger and patience to viceand different things and you
think, oh, you could see it soclearly the effect that you have
on those around you.
But I think one thing that Ithink you had mentioned earlier
I just want to touch on is youknow you talked about opening up
(30:59):
you know the power of this Eros, this power of this attraction.
You know, when you're walkingthrough Costco, I think this is
a message that needs to beshouted from the rooftops
because I think so many men youknow Christopher West talks
about this in Theology of theBody they have this starvation
diet or the fast food diet wherethey think I really only have
(31:19):
two options here.
I can either just repress thisand push it down, or I can
indulge, I can just dive in.
You spend the rest of your timewalking through Costco lusting
after that woman, you go home,you turn to pornography,
whatever it is, but the beautyof it and just to interject for
a second.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
It doesn't have to be sex.
I mean that's drinking too much, that's eating too much, yeah
no, absolutely thisoverindulgence, right.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
And so I think the reality that there is a third
option you know that God wantsus to open that up and bring
that to him and that has been anabsolute game changer to me is
that these desires are beautiful, these desires are good, and
it's amazing.
The power, the power you knowthe analogy it's the raw
(32:13):
materials for love.
It's the rocket ship, the fuelthat gets it off the ground.
Think about the power to get arocket ship off the ground, how
powerful it is.
But the thing is, if it's not,if the rocket ship isn't
oriented directly to the stars,right to the infinite, and it's
headed and it's pointing thewrong direction, back towards
yourself, it's going to causereal issues, right?
(32:34):
And so, as you said, as wementioned, you know, the devil
doesn't have his own clay.
It's not about eliminating,obliterating your desires.
It's this untwisting that theyare beautiful, they're good.
These are the raw materials,but the goal is they're meant to
bring you.
They are beautiful, they'regood, these are the raw
materials, but the goal isthey're meant to bring you
outside of yourself.
They're meant to pull yououtside of yourself so you can
(32:56):
hang on that cross like Christand realize the freedom of
pouring yourself out and dyingto yourself.
And so it's just I think it'sjust important for men to hear
that that your desires are abeautiful thing.
The battle is not eliminatingthe desires.
The battle is not refusing tosee beauty.
It's like oh no, that's not abeautiful woman.
I need to get that out of myhead, I need to repress that
(33:18):
down.
It's opening this up to God inprayer and staying connected
with him the whole time.
And the beautiful thing is youstart seeing reality clearly.
You start seeing it clearly.
You start seeing as the waythat god intended.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
That's so important.
You know, um, the dominicanfather and playwright, john
cameron, said this there's noescape from that burning desire
within us, and it's for the true, the good and the beautiful.
And he's talking about thesepassion desires and and it's so
important here just maybe thepause.
Plato knew this.
Aristotle, this is 400 yearsbefore Jesus.
(33:52):
The ancient Greeks.
They knew that this was adivine spark.
The sensual desire that youwere describing is a divine
spark, but it's also for what'strue, good and beautiful.
So you don't just stop there.
Like you said, this is thatthird part.
We're living in athree-dimensional space where
that rocket ship is launchingnow.
Well, where's it going to go?
It's going to go where what istrue, what is good, what is
(34:16):
beautiful, even in a woman, whatis good for her, you know, and
what is good for my own heart,and I start to open that up to
the divine.
This is so important.
This is where we enter in,we're starting to really enter
into this game plan becausethese passionate desires again,
I'm saying the same thing wesaid before, but that's the
spark within us, that's what'slighting the rocket ship within
(34:38):
us.
That's why the sword?
Because the first place wefight this battle is on the
battlefield of our ownindividual human hearts, between
love and lust, between being aself-giving person and a taking
and a grasping person.
And you'll see these olderpoliticians and these older
billionaires, when they makethese tiny selfish moves,
(35:00):
constantly, constantly,constantly through life, they
become this really selfishperson that can almost do
anything evil in the world,person that can almost do
anything evil in the world.
And then the opposite when Iuse my wealth or power or
position in life to do good andstart to pour myself out, you
know I really change and Ibecome that person that can do
(35:21):
great things in the world.
So Father Cameron said each ofus lives with this
unextinguishable experience oflife that's supposed to make
sense and satisfy us deeply, andeven the most jaded atheist
feels cheated if he doesn'texperience meaning, purpose and
peace in a word, happiness inthis life.
But just where does thisuniversal expectation of
(35:44):
personal fulfillment come from?
It isn't something wemanufacture or develop on our
own.
Rather, that yearning, burningdesire for what is real is
incorporated again into ourdesign, and this burning can
lead to either the torment ofpain or the torrent of love.
It'll either consume us orconsummate us, and our very
(36:08):
bodies tell the story, thatyearning of eros, that were
incomplete, that we're in searchof another to make sense of
ourselves.
Although that yearningoriginates deep in our souls,
it's also manifested in ourbodies, and our very bodies tell
the story of our incompleteness.
Think about how a man is created.
You look down at yourselfbefore you jump in the shower
(36:31):
and you say, yeah, my bodydoesn't make sense without a
woman, a woman's body doesn'tmake sense without a man.
Well, so we're incomplete.
We know this, but we're notdrawn to you somebody.
Just love has been reduced to afeeling and then to sexual
activity.
We are called to give ourselvesaway.
So when we come together andconsummate this relationship,
(36:52):
we're renewing our wedding vows,and it's just so important and
this is part of our sexuality.
You know, our modern world,finally, has lost the beauty of
the story.
Our story, it's normalized thefall and original sin and we
come back.
We're going to be talking about, you know, but from the
beginning it was not so andwe'll open up this triptych and,
(37:14):
you know, when you get abovethe trees, you see, you know,
jesus takes us back into thebeginning before sin.
We're in now which he wouldcall a historical man, which is
really this battlefield of theheart after sin came in.
And then the third part isreally important, especially
with guys with same-sexattraction, pornography
addictions, to realize that atthe end this will never fill us
(37:37):
because it's always pointing.
All these desires are pointingus to ultimate union and
communion with God.
And we're not talking abouttomorrow.
Eternity doesn't mean tomorrow.
Eternity means forever.
The beauty of our story Markwhat we're talking about.
We're stepping into the arena.
We are already eternal humanbeings and we're really, you
(38:04):
know, deciding where thatrocket's going.
Do I go on to eternity or do Iturn around and just die right
here and then that's the end ofit?
You know, and you know.
So, a body and a soul withoutthis grace that we're talking
about, without opening up toeros, just the facts it's.
the default position is sin anddeath.
That's it.
You're going to fall into sinand we're all going to die,
brother, and I think it's goodto know that and good to
(38:25):
remember that, because you livemore fully when you know oh, I
got just a little time righthere and really I'm creating my
own destiny and I do thatthrough truth, goodness, beauty
and love.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
life is so much about little decisions.
It's it's the little things andit's something that I'm taking
away from our conversation hereas I go into my day is just
these desires.
The battlefield, you know itstruck me when you said the
battlefield of the human heartit starts with our human heart.
(38:59):
It starts with thatintrospection of just looking at
these temptations that comewith us each and every day.
But I remember, like just theencouragement I want to, I want
to give, is that yourtemptations, your temptations,
these desires that you have arenot roadblocks to your sanctity.
They are the path.
They are the path where Godwants you to open these up.
(39:21):
And what?
The difference between the menthat are heroic, that are living
lives of great virtue, and theones that aren't, that turn to
vice, is.
What do they do with that ache,what do they do with the
temptations?
And that's the question, right,we have to take into.
This is the path to become agreat saint.
(39:42):
It's not just one heroic act,it's little heroic acts every
single day, over and over andover again.
And we know we know ourexperience as a human being If
we just do a nightly exam andlook back on the day at all the
different little temptations,different things that come up.
And the question is what did wedo with those things?
Did we open them up to thisstory that God's invited us into
(40:03):
?
Did we open these longings upfor him?
And there is immense freedom,right, jack?
Like you had talked about thedifference between a guy who
sees a woman in Costco and justspends the next half hour in the
store lusting after her, versusthe man who can look, who can
see, who can see her beauty andsay thank you, god, but then
(40:24):
allow that to open up and bringhim into deeper union with God.
I mean, think about the freedom.
This is the path that we canrecognize the beauty, we can
affirm the beauty withoutturning and lusting after it,
but we can actually allow thatto be the rocket fuel that
brings us to deeper union andprayer with God.
So we're not extinguishing thisache that we know is so
(40:47):
powerful within us.
And so that's the challengethat I feel you know from our
conversation.
Just to continue, what am Idoing with that ache, what am I
doing with the temptations, whatam I doing with the beauty that
I see in the world?
As Jacques Philippe said, it'sabout how do you respond.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yes, that's beautiful .
I think we'll end it rightthere.
Maybe just you know there's apicture behind me of the divine
mercy Jesus.
That's beautiful, I think we'llend it right there.
Maybe just you know there's apicture behind me of the divine
mercy Jesus.
I trust in you.
I say that very often.
But take that ache of your heartbecause you'll feel it, man.
I mean, you know, when youstand up and you try to fight
these things, you'll know abattle's going on.
It could be really fierce inyour heart.
So we don't want to downplaythat this is going to be a
(41:26):
battle, but the beauty is goingto be there and, like Mark said,
it's going to bring you into anintimacy with God that you
didn't think existed.
But when I start to open up myache, I open it up to the ache
right here.
So the image of the divinemercy.
That's where Jesus got hit withthe lance and what flowed out
was blood and water.
So that's his ache and his acheis for you.
And that's his ache and hisache is for you.
(41:48):
And that's baptism andconfession and that's the
Eucharist.
There the red is the Eucharist,where he wants to become
intimate with you.
So you're stepping into thearena.
You're stepping into the story.
You're not doing it by yourself.
Go out and get a disciple, dothese together.
There's discussion questionsright in the show notes.
And to make sure you're doingthat, three simple thing in the
(42:08):
morning Make sure, if you'reCatholic, that you're going to
confession, maybe twice a month,especially in the beginning, so
you can receive that Eucharist.
And it's going to change.
It's going to change.
Your life is going to be morejoyful, more peaceful, for sure.
Hey, marcus, thank you so much.
Thanks for being with us,thanks everyone.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Talk to you again soon.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Bye-bye.
Welcome to the Become who you Are podcast, a
production of the John Paul IIRenewal Center.
I'm Jack Riggert, your host.
Welcome, especially to Claymore.
These are the young guys thatwe've been working with.
That's the big Claymore swordbehind me.
It's good to be with you.
It's good to be with MarkSchmidt back for another session
.
Really, we did a little reset,didn't we, mark?
(00:32):
And so last week, last Friday,was number one, claymore number
one, you'll see in the title,and so this is session number
two.
So for all the guys joining us,some new material.
Of course, we're alwaysbringing over from a book that
I'm writing, so we want to makesure we touch all the different
points and, mark, it's good tobe with you Always a pleasure to
(00:55):
be with this great communityand looking forward to diving
through Claymore again.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
You know, as I've been thinking about Claymore as
we were preparing to sit down,something that came to mind that
I wanted to kind of start usoff with this morning was a
baseball analogy that I hadheard from Bishop Barron.
He said you know so if you'retrying to teach someone the game
of baseball, one approach isyou could just sit him down, go
(01:21):
through all the rules of thegame, the positions, etc.
Go through all the rules of thegame, the positions, etc.
Another option is you bringthat person to a game at Wrigley
Field.
You know, you let themexperience the smell of the
stadium, the sounds.
You get to watch the playersclosely, allow them to study the
game.
You know, you give them anopportunity to really experience
and fall in love with baseball.
(01:42):
And I think we can allrecognize that going to the
stadium is a much different andricher experience of baseball
versus just sitting down andexplaining the rule book to
someone.
And this is why Claymore is soimportant.
It's because it's not justabout information.
(02:04):
Claymore is meant to bring youinto the stadium.
It's meant to bring you to adeeper love and union with the
person of Jesus Christ, and sothat we can become the men that
he has created us to be.
We've talked about this, youtalk about this all the time.
There is a crisis inmasculinity, of just being an
(02:24):
authentic human being, the wayGod has created us.
You know St Irenaeus.
He said the glory of God is manfully alive.
And so the question then iswell, how do we do this?
You know, how do we becomefully alive?
Where does Claymore step in andfill this gap?
And so, you know, jack, you'veoutlined and I'm just going to
kind of go through these quicklyhere as we get into the episode
(02:48):
today but really three steps intaking back the territory for
Christ becoming fully alive.
So step one is restoring thedignity of the human person, you
know, and understanding what itmeans to actually be human, and
we need to recognize that wehave been made in the image and
likeness of God and that we aremade by a God of love who
(03:12):
desires us to be filled with hislove so that we can then become
people of love.
And so step two is restoringmarriage in the family.
So, now that we have beenfilled and received this divine
love from God.
We then have to become a giftand pour ourselves out to others
and bringing God's love intothe world, into our homes, those
(03:34):
closest to us.
You know one of my favoritequotes from Mother Teresa if you
want to change the world, gohome and love your family.
How crucial it is the buildingblock of society to bring that
love of God into your home.
And then step three is now we'regetting out into the culture.
It's that socio-politicalactivism, it's answering
Christ's call to go out into thevineyard to bring the light of
(03:56):
our faith into our communities,the world around us.
And so those are just kind of aquick summary of these three
steps.
But you know, on the website,the John Paul II Renewal Center,
under the resource tab, you candownload the Claymore Battle
Plan and there's furtherspiritual theological formation
We'll get into this over thecourse of the weeks of all that
(04:17):
Claymore entails.
But the last thing before wereally dive in today is I want
to highlight is Claymore ismeant to be done in the context
of discipleship and friendship.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
You know, this isn't just you alone.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, you alone in your house.
You know my football coach incollege.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Well, again that analogy comes back.
You know, when you step intothe arena with other people, you
actually stepped back into thestadium again to watch the game.
You know, if you're just homeby yourself, that's not the same
thing.
You're really making thatconnection to the outside, with
with life, with other people.
You're at the game now.
You're at the game with others,you know we're social beings,
(04:58):
the way God created.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
We're meant for relationship, we're meant for
community and also justrecognizing, recognizing how,
how important it is forsurrounding ourselves with the
right people.
You know our as I was saying,our football coach in college.
He would say you know you arewho you surround yourself with.
You know you need to surroundyourself with good, other
like-minded men who are allstriving to be Saints.
(05:19):
So that's kind of a littleintro here, but, jack, I'll toss
it.
I'll toss it back to you.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
We start with our hearts, right With our own
hearts, with our own passionsand desires.
This is what makes it soimportant.
This is how you really comeinto the story.
You don't come into somebodyelse's story and say, okay,
where's my heart at, especiallywhat Plato would call eros,
these great sensual desires.
But they're also desires forwhat's true, good and beautiful.
(05:45):
Again, this is moving yououtside of yourself and allowing
those desires to move you intoarena and say you know what's
this all about?
It's when you connect thosedesires to the gospel this is
what John Paul II said Then youhave that aha moment, you go ooh
.
Yes, you know, I was born on thesouth side of Chicago.
I was the oldest of five boysand I remember so well, by the
(06:08):
time I was in second grade wehad moved into this upper floor
apartment of my grandparents'two flat and they lived below us
, and in the back we had a smallyard that opened up to our
alley, and that alley, for us asyoung boys, was the main artery
to the rest of the world.
And it was here, in that alley,that my brothers and I awakened
(06:28):
to the three core themes builtinto the DNA of every man that
life is supposed to be anadventure, that it's going to be
a battle and the meaning behindit all is beauty, especially
the beauty of love.
You know, one day I wasunlocking that gate and my
brothers were right behind usand we had our swords and our
(06:49):
plastic guns.
You know, we're getting readyfor battle, we're going to go
out on that adventure.
And as I unlocked the gate thatwould bring us back to the
alley, all of us eager foraction, right.
And then I heard these angelicvoices coming down the alley.
And there they were, and theywere beautiful, two girls,
(07:09):
probably in fourth or fifthgrade, but to my second grade
heart they carried somethingwords alone can't capture.
I felt, probably for the firsttime, the mysterious magnetic
power that the beauty of a womancan have on a man's heart, a
power, again, like we saidearlier, that draws you out of
yourself.
And even my younger brothersensed something was happening,
(07:32):
and no one tried to shove pastme or asked why I'd stopped.
One of them even gave a littlewave and the girls glanced over,
smiled politely at us and thendisappeared down the alley,
unaware probably of the effectthey were having on us.
Well, we soon discovered, mark,that those twins lived a few
blocks down from us on the topof a three flat.
(07:52):
From then on, every one of ouradventures began in that
direction.
In fact, the building became acastle, ruled by an evil knight
holding those princess twinscaptive.
And we would come together andwe would storm the outer doors
of that apartment, which was nowa castle.
We'd fight our way up thestairwell, you know, after one
(08:15):
black knight, after anothercoming after us, and we would
rescue them in a dramaticfashion again and again, and
over the summer we must haverescued those twins dozens of
times, and the tragedy, ofcourse, was that they never knew
they were being rescued right,they never heard us, they never
knew, but it didn't matter to usbecause this was chivalry at
the finest.
(08:35):
And at the same time I wanted tobe a missionary priest.
I wrote by snail mail in thosedays, no emails To every
religious order I could find.
It sent missionaries to far-offplaces like Tanzania, shenyanga
and the Congo, and I longed tobe part of this adventure too,
this battle, and even as a boy,especially at mass, I sensed
that this also was about beauty.
This was the beauty of thesacred, and somehow, in my
(08:59):
second grade mind, I was holdingtogether some pretty profound
theology I would find later on Ididn't have and feel any
conflict between my attractionto those twin sisters and the
attraction to the sacred.
Both stirred in me a deeplonging for beauty and mystery,
and later I would learn that Iwas touching the very frame of
the biblical love story, whichcould be summed up in just five
(09:23):
words God wants to marry us, godwants to marry us, god wants to
marry us.
It's an amazing relationshipand this is that intimacy, mark,
that you were talking aboutearlier on.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
It's an amazingly profound summary of the gospel
and I remember hearing that forthe first time.
And you know John Paul II, Ithink, did such a beautiful job
explaining this.
You know that this love story,his love story, is inscribed in
our hearts and it's stamped intoour bodies so that we can make
(09:58):
it visible in the creative world.
You know, to quote John Paul II, he said the body alone, and it
alone, is capable of makingvisible what is invisible, the
spiritual and the divine.
You know, it was created totransfer into the visible
reality of the world theinvisible mystery hidden in God
(10:20):
from the time immemorial, andthus to be a sign of it.
You know, think about it thatthe Bible opens with the
marriage in an earthly paradisewe got these two bookends in
Adam and Eve and Genesis and itcloses with the marriage in a
(10:40):
heavenly paradise Christ and thechurch in Revelation and Jack.
Who is the church?
You know it's you, you and I.
We are.
(11:06):
And so I think, as we kind ofdelve deeper into this mystery,
one thing I want to just pointout here, on the onset here is
due to original sin, the dailysubjective experiences there's
constantly these temptations todoubt, to anxiety, that this
story is too good, too good tobe true, like this amazing
reality that the infinite goddesires to marry us, to be in
perfect communion with us, thatgod, a trinitarian community and
perfect communion of love,desires us to enter into that
communion for eternity, you know, in eternity now, with him, and
and so just wrestling with thatand realizing that that
temptation is there, and that'swhy it's so important that we
(11:29):
know the truth and proclaim thetruth that this is the reality,
that God truly longs for us andhe put that desire there.
You know, something I've beenthinking about is how are we, as
finite human beings, how do wehave that capacity for infinite
longing, for infinite love?
It's because God put that there.
That's a gift, that's a seed heplanted in each of us, that
(11:52):
he's drawing us to himself whenyou think about those twin
sisters that I mentioned.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
You know that spark, that's a divine spark, like you
said, within the human heart andthat was given to us by design,
and this is why it's soimportant.
I've heard you say many timesthat Satan doesn't have his own
clay.
He would love to just twist anddistort those passions and
desires Instead of seeing themas the spark where love can come
(12:22):
into the story, where you liftone another up as a gift you're
giving to one another, you turnit around and you use them.
And this is the culture we'rein today.
We're using one another.
It's really sad.
Somebody said to me just and ithappens all the time just
recently said to me okay, jack,where is this God?
You know, where is he?
(12:43):
Why don't we see him?
I said, well, first of all, he,you know, we did see him Christ
was, is incarnate.
I mean, this is the logic ofour faith.
You know, a man born of a womanwalks into the story of history.
He's not only murdered, he'sresurrected.
Without the resurrection,without that live person coming
back into the story, you wouldnever even have our Christian
(13:05):
faith.
But here's the other bookend ofthat when somebody says, where
is this God.
Today we are to be that personof love, we are to bring God's
love in, and so that's reallythe beauty of our Christian
faith.
That's why marriage and thefamily whether you get married
and have a family or not, youstill need to know that image,
(13:25):
because that's that Trinitarianimage, that reflection of God in
the world, and that's important, because if love is going to
get into the world, we have tobring it in, be filled with
divine life and love, and thenbring it into the world.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
This is something that all of us could do.
I still remember, Jack and I'veshared this before but sitting
being introduced to Theology ofthe Body, sitting down for the
first time and reading Theologyof the Body for Beginners by
Christopher West was not areader at any point in my life
(13:59):
up till then and I could not putthis book down.
I read the whole thing in onesitting and I felt like, as I
was reading, that the scalesfell from my eyes and I was
seeing reality for the first.
It just it hit me.
It was an absolute moment ofgrace.
But that God is love and we aremade in the image and likeness
of God.
We are made for this love andif we want peace and joy, if we
(14:21):
want to thrive, if we want tobecome fully alive, that is only
possible in the measure inwhich we give ourselves away, in
which we pour ourselves out, inthe way that our life looks
like Christ hanging on the cross, and so I'm single at this
point.
But to your point, you don'thave to be married to live this
out.
It is to each and every personwhen you meet.
(14:42):
I remember the conviction I'mone of five, with four sisters
was I need to love my sistersbetter, I need to love my
parents better, I need to loveevery person around me better,
and so the exciting thing is,this adventure is available to
every person, no matter whatstage in life you are at.
Every day, you haveopportunities to pour yourself
(15:03):
out and to bring to receiveGod's love and pour that out to
those around you.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
You know GK Chesterton, I always laugh when
he's talking about your foursisters and your family.
And you know this is again notbrain surgery.
You know, love God and loveyour neighbor.
But he said, you know, go homeand love your family, just like
Mother Teresa said.
And he said, and that's whyChrist said, love your enemies
and pray for them.
You know, because he said, whenyou go home, a lot of times
(15:32):
those family members are yourenemies and the people that you
love at the same time.
I mean, you know, if you thinkabout it, we don't treat anybody
as bad as sometimes as we treatour own family right sure but
here's christ, comes back intothe story and get back to, kind
of, our analogy here.
In ephesians 5, 31, 32, johnpaul said this is the summa, or
(15:54):
the summary, right, of thiswhole teaching that he did, and
he took it right out of St Paul.
When St Paul said for thisreason, a man shall leave his
father and mother and be joinedto his wife and the two shall
become one flesh.
He's talking about sexual unionhere and he said this is a
great mystery, and I mean inreference to Christ and the
church.
It's Jesus himself, hanging onthe cross, that left his
(16:16):
heavenly father and his earthlymother to become one flesh with
us, to give his life away to us.
And so he's saying you know,this spark, this divine spark,
even the intimate union of a manand a woman open to life, right
is the third person, right, thetwo become one and there's a
love bomb explosion.
There's actually three personsin one, reflecting Trinity,
(16:38):
right Father, son and HolySpirit.
Well, here's Christ, theincarnate bridegroom, come down
and he's going to pour his lifeout for the church.
Who is us?
We're the church.
And so he's pouring his lifeout.
So this is the bridegroomgiving his life to the bride and
, in a sense, sometimes it'shard for men to say what do you
(16:58):
mean In the analogy?
I'm the bride.
Yeah, we are only the bridethat we're receiving love.
Right, he's pouring it out,we're receiving it just like a
bride would be receiving herhusband's love, and then you
receive in a giving way and hegives in a receiving way.
You have this flow of love andthen this fruit comes out and
that fruit is going out andloving others.
(17:21):
You know, and until you stepinto the story and here's the
last point I'll make right now,just because it's in my mind
when you said earlier, you knowit's very hard for us to think
that this God of the universeactually wants an intimate
relationship with us.
But every man that I meet thatreally is on fire for God, for
(17:43):
others, has had a personalencounter with God.
A personal encounter, I mean,they know it.
They could tell you what day itwas.
Sometimes it's multiple times.
I certainly can.
I remember the story that Ijust told you as I look back.
That was one of the firstsparks, but I've had a number of
encounters along the way and Ikeep telling those stories over
(18:04):
and over again, because we allhave a specific story or series
of stories that says, yep, godwalked right in, I saw him, I
felt him, I know who he is, youknow.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Well, I think you know, going back to this
intimacy, when we God you knowhe hides himself in one way, but
in another way he does it inthe sense of the Eucharist,
right, how the Eucharist tiesinto this reality that he is
always desiring union with us.
And I remember when I learnedthis the first time, when we
(18:37):
were talking about theseparallels here between the
earthly marriage and theheavenly marriage.
And you know, you look at ourearthly marriage here, you know,
you stand on the altar withyour bride, you commit yourself
totally to her with your words,and then God gives us the great
gift of sex and marriage, whichis a way that we recommit our
(18:58):
wedding vows over and over againwith our bride.
And so you look at that and youthink, well, now let's bring in
the heavenly marriage, whereChrist, you know Fulton Sheen
said he laid on the marriage bedof the cross and he consummates
this marriage with the churchof laying down his life.
And just like in our earthlymarriage, where we have this
(19:19):
ability to come into intimacywith our bride and recommit our
wedding vows with our bodies,well, how do we do that?
How does Christ offer us that?
But this intimacy, thisphysical intimacy of the
Eucharist, where the Eucharistis a way that God, where God is
looking to pour himself out tous and have that union and
(19:57):
intimacy with us, regardless ofwhat we feel.
We know concretely.
He's revealed this to us indivine revelation that he is
present in the Eucharist andhe's longing to be one with us.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It's so hard in today's time, when I'm speaking
to young people, to grasp whatyou just said, because you're
almost saying that the sexualunion of a man and a woman, when
all the smoke and fog clears,is pointing directly at the
Eucharist and God's desire,jesus' desire to be one flesh
with us.
But that's exactly what's goingon and what's happening here.
(20:34):
You know, god is not a sexualbeing.
You know, like you said, thisis a sacramental act, right, but
we're entering into an intimatecommunion and union.
I know this myself from my ownexperiences.
You know this personal,intimate union that Christ wants
with us.
But see, you know we'reCatholic and the beauty of it.
You can say sex and God in thesame sentence.
(20:56):
And here's the point.
You know, god thinks our humansexuality is beautiful.
He created it.
It's so lofty Our humansexuality, if understood, when a
man and a woman come togetheragain, open to life, right, this
beautiful, passionate, uh, love.
You know, you think about, youknow two people really give,
(21:18):
really they get it and reallyare pouring themselves out to
one another and this reallyecstasy of, of love, this is
pointing directly at, it is asign.
It's a tiny sign, but it's asign that we enter into.
For us it's not tiny, it's abig deal and it points directly
again at God's desire to be onewith us.
(21:39):
In fact, that's where we'regoing.
We'll get to that in futureepisodes, but that's exactly
where we're going.
You know I work with guys and Iknow you do too that have been
addicted to pornography,same-sex attractions, all these
gender ideologies and the beautyof it is, if properly
understood and untwisted, andjust relax and take a deep
(22:01):
breath and open those desires upto God, you will actually be
filled over time.
And this is why it's soimportant, mark, and it's right
in the battle plan.
First thing in the morning,first thing in the morning,
before you look at that phone,drop to your knees, let it be
done to me.
According to your word, you'rejust kneeling with our Blessed
Mother opening your heart Verypractical thing to do and then I
(22:24):
always hear our Blessed Mothersay you know, at the wedding
feast of Cana, do whatever hetells you.
Now I open it up and I'mlistening for him.
But the second point istemptation is not a sin and all
these temptations a lot ofsexual temptations, but also
sloth I don't want to get up.
I don't want to do this.
Oh, I'm fearful, you know, andit's hard.
(22:45):
I don't hate my boss and I gotto go to work, but all those
temptations, I just open thoseup and allow those to go right
into the heart of Christ andcome into my heart.
It's amazing how that works.
It's really beautiful.
And then the third thing is justget up and love the next person
, you see, and whoever that is.
If it's your wife, if it's yourkids, if it's the cashier down
(23:08):
the street, it doesn't matter.
If it's that boss, you don'thave to like your boss.
But you can really relax if youcan just say no, I don't have
to like your boss, but you canreally relax if you can just say
no, I don't like him or her.
But I'm called to love themanyways.
Still treat them with respect,man.
It takes the pressure off ofyou, right, and they might still
(23:29):
be a jerk or whatever, but youknow, I don't like them but I
love them.
And you know, until I getanother job, I get out of there.
Why am I going to beat myselfup every day and be all nervous
about this schmuck?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
right Love him.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Maybe he'll change.
Even you know.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, I think, just on a practical note too, I think
it's that understanding of justcontrolling what we can control
, right, we cannot control thatother person, but we can control
being that person of love.
You know, when we stand beforeGod at the end of our life,
we're not held accountable forwhat our boss did, or what our
sister or brother did, or ourspouse did, even to some degree,
(24:02):
but we are standing.
Well, how did you respond?
You know, and I rememberreading one of the spiritual,
something from Jacques Philippe,and he said you know, the
spiritual mature person movesfrom the question of why me to
God.
How do you want me to respond?
Right, how do you want me torespond?
And that's someone who's reallytaking ownership of their life,
(24:23):
answering the call.
They know their human dignity,they know the call of love and
it's saying how can I bring loveinto this situation?
How can I sacrifice?
And they're not being tossedlike the waves at the sea by the
external circumstances, buttheir foundation comes from what
they've been filled with, whichno one can touch, no one can
take that from you, this divinelove that's been poured into us
(24:46):
and St Catherine of Siena and StTeresa of Avila, st Therese of
Lisieux, padre Pio.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
St Teresa of Avila, st Therese of Lisieux, padre Pio
, bishop Sheen We've beentalking about this St John of
the Cross and they always aretouched by this eros.
This, you know.
They become mad with this lovefor God, you know, and mad in a
good way, you know.
I mean like a madness takesover them.
You know, plato called thateros Again, that's that Greek
(25:12):
god of love and the Romans hadCupid Cupid remember the little
guy with the arrow man and itwould pierce your heart.
This is what we're talkingabout.
When I saw those twins for thefirst time and this would happen
over and over again when Irealized later on that that was
the spark given to me by God,that this incredible like, oh,
(25:34):
she's beautiful.
You have those stunning momentsin your life, maybe the first
time you meet that special girlin your life.
I always laugh.
I go to Costco every once in awhile and I'll see a beautiful
woman coming at me down theaisle, and still to today.
But the beauty of it is I don'tturn it around into a situation
(25:55):
where I go, you know, I startto imagine lusting after her or
whatever.
I just right away, I see thatand I'm and my down, just like
I'm down on my knees in themorning, and I open that desire
and I'll try to stuff it down.
I don't stand there and try toindulge it because that'll drive
me crazy, man, after a while.
Right, it's a waste of time.
So I open that right away.
(26:16):
Thank you, jesus, for thebeauty of that woman, thank you
for touching my heart again andreminding that you are the one
that ultimately loves me, thatspark I'm feeling.
Thank you for that spark,because you just reminded me
again about this intimate lovehe has for us and I pray for
that woman.
I pray with right.
(26:36):
I see her and I go, oh, thankyou for that, and I say a prayer
for her.
It's amazing, over the well now, years and years and years, but
even over a few weeks, you'llstart to feel something
different.
You know, Because then here'sthe last part I'll make Because
everything that you said earliertoo, we determine who we become
by these thoughts.
We are co-creating our ownlives with God.
(27:07):
We came into a story, but everytime I say yes to the good and I
do the good, john Paul wouldsay, I become good, I am good,
and when you do that, you startto find more peace, more joy,
joy.
And when you do that, you startto find more peace, more joy,
joy.
It's very, very important.
And every time I, I lust and Iturn in selfishly, I look at
porn instead of going out anddoing good things in the world.
I actually do evil to myselfand as I do evil, I actually
(27:28):
become evil.
It's amazing, you know, I, Icome into myself, I change and
over time if you don't get outof that, over time I actually
become evil.
And here I'll give you thisexample.
Some time ago, a guy that I knowpretty well got into this
relationship.
He had gotten divorced, gotinto this relationship with this
woman and she got pregnant.
(27:50):
Now here's a good Catholic mantrying to live this thing out,
but then he falls for this girl.
They're not married, they starta sexual liaison, she gets
pregnant and they end up gettingan abortion.
So here's this guy thatconsidered himself a good
Catholic, talked about it allthe time, knew his faith,
(28:11):
murdering a child.
He became part of murdering achild.
This will be on his conscienceand on her conscience forever.
So this is what I mean Now.
Did he become.
He did an evil act.
If he's not careful, you know,doesn't confess that, really
start to turn it around and hesteps, stays down that path.
It over time, he, he willchange and he will become much
(28:36):
more selfish person.
Uh, there'll be a disconnect.
Sin is always a disconnectbetween the relationship between
God and myself.
I put up a barrier there and um, and you change.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
This is the convicting reality.
You know that we, you knowasking my own self every day.
You know we're not, it's notneutral territory, we're not
just stagnant.
We can grow in virtue, we cangrow in vice.
And it's an every day, it's abattle.
We have to pick up our crossdaily and we have to look at
ourselves and say what parts ofmy life have I not surrendered
(29:11):
to God?
You know, where am I grasping?
Where have I turned intoselfishness?
How am I not emptying myself?
What parts of my life do notlook like Jesus hanging on the
cross, pouring myself for others?
And it's humbling because youhear these stories and you think
there I go, but for the graceof God, right, it's all possible
(29:31):
.
You know we have to staygrafted right.
Jesus says I'm the vine, youare the branches.
If we pull away from that, ifwe pull out.
That's why the battle plan is soimportant with Claymore,
because it's not justinformation, we're not just here
telling you you know, god isreal, jesus is real.
Go on with the rest of yourlife.
We're saying you need to takethis in and transform your
(29:54):
entire life, because theconsequences are enormous.
You know, the older I get, jack, and I'm coming up on six years
of marriage, three young kids,and I don't have all the answers
.
That's one thing I've learned.
I definitely don't have all theanswers, but what I have
learned for sure is that if Imyself do not strive for
(30:14):
sainthood, I can wreak havoc inthe lives of my wife and my
children.
If I do not become who God iscalling me to be.
If I don't become fully alive,if I don't become this person of
love, who do I pour that out onmy children, my wife.
They need me to be a saint.
They need me to keep growing invirtue and you see the painful
(30:38):
consequences when you don't,when you slip up, when you turn
into anger and patience to viceand different things and you
think, oh, you could see it soclearly the effect that you have
on those around you.
But I think one thing that Ithink you had mentioned earlier
I just want to touch on is youknow you talked about opening up
(30:59):
you know the power of this Eros, this power of this attraction.
You know, when you're walkingthrough Costco, I think this is
a message that needs to beshouted from the rooftops
because I think so many men youknow Christopher West talks
about this in Theology of theBody they have this starvation
diet or the fast food diet wherethey think I really only have
(31:19):
two options here.
I can either just repress thisand push it down, or I can
indulge, I can just dive in.
You spend the rest of your timewalking through Costco lusting
after that woman, you go home,you turn to pornography,
whatever it is, but the beautyof it and just to interject for
a second.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
It doesn't have to be sex.
I mean that's drinking too much, that's eating too much, yeah
no, absolutely thisoverindulgence, right.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
And so I think the reality that there is a third
option you know that God wantsus to open that up and bring
that to him and that has been anabsolute game changer to me is
that these desires are beautiful, these desires are good, and
it's amazing.
The power, the power you knowthe analogy it's the raw
(32:13):
materials for love.
It's the rocket ship, the fuelthat gets it off the ground.
Think about the power to get arocket ship off the ground, how
powerful it is.
But the thing is, if it's not,if the rocket ship isn't
oriented directly to the stars,right to the infinite, and it's
headed and it's pointing thewrong direction, back towards
yourself, it's going to causereal issues, right?
(32:34):
And so, as you said, as wementioned, you know, the devil
doesn't have his own clay.
It's not about eliminating,obliterating your desires.
It's this untwisting that theyare beautiful, they're good.
These are the raw materials,but the goal is they're meant to
bring you.
They are beautiful, they'regood, these are the raw
materials, but the goal isthey're meant to bring you
outside of yourself.
They're meant to pull yououtside of yourself so you can
(32:56):
hang on that cross like Christand realize the freedom of
pouring yourself out and dyingto yourself.
And so it's just I think it'sjust important for men to hear
that that your desires are abeautiful thing.
The battle is not eliminatingthe desires.
The battle is not refusing tosee beauty.
It's like oh no, that's not abeautiful woman.
I need to get that out of myhead, I need to repress that
(33:18):
down.
It's opening this up to God inprayer and staying connected
with him the whole time.
And the beautiful thing is youstart seeing reality clearly.
You start seeing it clearly.
You start seeing as the waythat god intended.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
That's so important.
You know, um, the dominicanfather and playwright, john
cameron, said this there's noescape from that burning desire
within us, and it's for the true, the good and the beautiful.
And he's talking about thesepassion desires and and it's so
important here just maybe thepause.
Plato knew this.
Aristotle, this is 400 yearsbefore Jesus.
(33:52):
The ancient Greeks.
They knew that this was adivine spark.
The sensual desire that youwere describing is a divine
spark, but it's also for what'strue, good and beautiful.
So you don't just stop there.
Like you said, this is thatthird part.
We're living in athree-dimensional space where
that rocket ship is launchingnow.
Well, where's it going to go?
It's going to go where what istrue, what is good, what is
(34:16):
beautiful, even in a woman, whatis good for her, you know, and
what is good for my own heart,and I start to open that up to
the divine.
This is so important.
This is where we enter in,we're starting to really enter
into this game plan becausethese passionate desires again,
I'm saying the same thing wesaid before, but that's the
spark within us, that's what'slighting the rocket ship within
(34:38):
us.
That's why the sword?
Because the first place wefight this battle is on the
battlefield of our ownindividual human hearts, between
love and lust, between being aself-giving person and a taking
and a grasping person.
And you'll see these olderpoliticians and these older
billionaires, when they makethese tiny selfish moves,
(35:00):
constantly, constantly,constantly through life, they
become this really selfishperson that can almost do
anything evil in the world,person that can almost do
anything evil in the world.
And then the opposite when Iuse my wealth or power or
position in life to do good andstart to pour myself out, you
know I really change and Ibecome that person that can do
(35:21):
great things in the world.
So Father Cameron said each ofus lives with this
unextinguishable experience oflife that's supposed to make
sense and satisfy us deeply, andeven the most jaded atheist
feels cheated if he doesn'texperience meaning, purpose and
peace in a word, happiness inthis life.
But just where does thisuniversal expectation of
(35:44):
personal fulfillment come from?
It isn't something wemanufacture or develop on our
own.
Rather, that yearning, burningdesire for what is real is
incorporated again into ourdesign, and this burning can
lead to either the torment ofpain or the torrent of love.
It'll either consume us orconsummate us, and our very
(36:08):
bodies tell the story, thatyearning of eros, that were
incomplete, that we're in searchof another to make sense of
ourselves.
Although that yearningoriginates deep in our souls,
it's also manifested in ourbodies, and our very bodies tell
the story of our incompleteness.
Think about how a man is created.
You look down at yourselfbefore you jump in the shower
(36:31):
and you say, yeah, my bodydoesn't make sense without a
woman, a woman's body doesn'tmake sense without a man.
Well, so we're incomplete.
We know this, but we're notdrawn to you somebody.
Just love has been reduced to afeeling and then to sexual
activity.
We are called to give ourselvesaway.
So when we come together andconsummate this relationship,
(36:52):
we're renewing our wedding vows,and it's just so important and
this is part of our sexuality.
You know, our modern world,finally, has lost the beauty of
the story.
Our story, it's normalized thefall and original sin and we
come back.
We're going to be talking about, you know, but from the
beginning it was not so andwe'll open up this triptych and,
(37:14):
you know, when you get abovethe trees, you see, you know,
jesus takes us back into thebeginning before sin.
We're in now which he wouldcall a historical man, which is
really this battlefield of theheart after sin came in.
And then the third part isreally important, especially
with guys with same-sexattraction, pornography
addictions, to realize that atthe end this will never fill us
(37:37):
because it's always pointing.
All these desires are pointingus to ultimate union and
communion with God.
And we're not talking abouttomorrow.
Eternity doesn't mean tomorrow.
Eternity means forever.
The beauty of our story Markwhat we're talking about.
We're stepping into the arena.
We are already eternal humanbeings and we're really, you
(38:04):
know, deciding where thatrocket's going.
Do I go on to eternity or do Iturn around and just die right
here and then that's the end ofit?
You know, and you know.
So, a body and a soul withoutthis grace that we're talking
about, without opening up toeros, just the facts it's.
the default position is sin anddeath.
That's it.
You're going to fall into sinand we're all going to die,
brother, and I think it's goodto know that and good to
(38:25):
remember that, because you livemore fully when you know oh, I
got just a little time righthere and really I'm creating my
own destiny and I do thatthrough truth, goodness, beauty
and love.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
life is so much about little decisions.
It's it's the little things andit's something that I'm taking
away from our conversation hereas I go into my day is just
these desires.
The battlefield, you know itstruck me when you said the
battlefield of the human heartit starts with our human heart.
(38:59):
It starts with thatintrospection of just looking at
these temptations that comewith us each and every day.
But I remember, like just theencouragement I want to, I want
to give, is that yourtemptations, your temptations,
these desires that you have arenot roadblocks to your sanctity.
They are the path.
They are the path where Godwants you to open these up.
(39:21):
And what?
The difference between the menthat are heroic, that are living
lives of great virtue, and theones that aren't, that turn to
vice, is.
What do they do with that ache,what do they do with the
temptations?
And that's the question, right,we have to take into.
This is the path to become agreat saint.
(39:42):
It's not just one heroic act,it's little heroic acts every
single day, over and over andover again.
And we know we know ourexperience as a human being If
we just do a nightly exam andlook back on the day at all the
different little temptations,different things that come up.
And the question is what did wedo with those things?
Did we open them up to thisstory that God's invited us into
(40:03):
?
Did we open these longings upfor him?
And there is immense freedom,right, jack?
Like you had talked about thedifference between a guy who
sees a woman in Costco and justspends the next half hour in the
store lusting after her, versusthe man who can look, who can
see, who can see her beauty andsay thank you, god, but then
(40:24):
allow that to open up and bringhim into deeper union with God.
I mean, think about the freedom.
This is the path that we canrecognize the beauty, we can
affirm the beauty withoutturning and lusting after it,
but we can actually allow thatto be the rocket fuel that
brings us to deeper union andprayer with God.
So we're not extinguishing thisache that we know is so
(40:47):
powerful within us.
And so that's the challengethat I feel you know from our
conversation.
Just to continue, what am Idoing with that ache, what am I
doing with the temptations, whatam I doing with the beauty that
I see in the world?
As Jacques Philippe said, it'sabout how do you respond.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yes, that's beautiful .
I think we'll end it rightthere.
Maybe just you know there's apicture behind me of the divine
mercy Jesus.
That's beautiful, I think we'llend it right there.
Maybe just you know there's apicture behind me of the divine
mercy Jesus.
I trust in you.
I say that very often.
But take that ache of your heartbecause you'll feel it, man.
I mean, you know, when youstand up and you try to fight
these things, you'll know abattle's going on.
It could be really fierce inyour heart.
So we don't want to downplaythat this is going to be a
(41:26):
battle, but the beauty is goingto be there and, like Mark said,
it's going to bring you into anintimacy with God that you
didn't think existed.
But when I start to open up myache, I open it up to the ache
right here.
So the image of the divinemercy.
That's where Jesus got hit withthe lance and what flowed out
was blood and water.
So that's his ache and his acheis for you.
And that's his ache and hisache is for you.
(41:48):
And that's baptism andconfession and that's the
Eucharist.
There the red is the Eucharist,where he wants to become
intimate with you.
So you're stepping into thearena.
You're stepping into the story.
You're not doing it by yourself.
Go out and get a disciple, dothese together.
There's discussion questionsright in the show notes.
And to make sure you're doingthat, three simple thing in the
(42:08):
morning Make sure, if you'reCatholic, that you're going to
confession, maybe twice a month,especially in the beginning, so
you can receive that Eucharist.
And it's going to change.
It's going to change.
Your life is going to be morejoyful, more peaceful, for sure.
Hey, marcus, thank you so much.
Thanks for being with us,thanks everyone.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Talk to you again soon.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Bye-bye.
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