August 5, 2025 • 49 mins
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A dark web of money, power, and government complicity surrounds the Jeffrey Epstein case – arguably the largest child sex trafficking operation ever uncovered. Crime investigator Tom Hampson takes us beyond the headlines to expose how this predator operated with impunity for decades.
Epstein's journey from financial mastermind to sex trafficker reveals a troubling pattern. Initially valued for his ability to create shell corporations for arms dealers and billionaires, Epstein leveraged these connections to build an operation that processed $1.5 billion in transactions related to human trafficking – with major banks blocking suspicious activity reports from government review.
The podcast explores disturbing historical precedents like the CIA's "Operation Midnight Climax," where intelligence agencies hired prostitutes to drug and film unwitting men in sexual encounters. This context helps explain how government agencies became entangled with Epstein's network, with former Secret Service agent Dan Bongino stating after his investigation: "I'll never be the same after learning what I've learned."
Read Part 2: The Troubling Case of Jeffrey Epstein
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
They got apartments in San Francisco and in New York
City and they hired prostitutesto go out to cruise bars and
the prostitutes would drug thedrink, sometimes to the guys.
They would entice them back tothese apartments and they would
seduce them and try to getinformation out of them before,
(00:22):
during and after having sex withthem.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Dan Bongino says he goes after investigating this
and looking into it.
I'll never be the same afterlearning what I've learned.
And his face was really likewhoa, I had no idea, right.
So he said on a social mediapost just last week that the
agency is conducting multipleinvestigations relating to
(00:44):
alleged public corruption andweaponization of government.
He said the director and I arecommitted to stamping out public
corruption and the politicalweaponization of both the law
enforcement's and intelligenceoperations.
But you realize what they're upagainst.
I get back to Paul in Ephesians6, you know we're not fighting
(01:06):
against flesh and blood, but thepowers and the principalities,
the rulers of this world.
He calls them and he's talkingabout the demonic all that money
.
Christ talks about it so often.
He says what are you going todo with all that money and all
those treasures?
He said you know you can haveall that.
What good have you done if yougot all these treasures and
you've lost your eternal soul?
(01:41):
Welcome to the Become who youAre podcast, a production of the
John Paul II Renewal Center.
I'm Jack Riggert, your host.
I'm back with a good friend,crime investigator and crime
journalist, tom Hampson.
Tom, you wrote part two of yourJeffrey Epstein's articles, the
Troubling Case of JeffreyEpstein.
I'm going to just read youropener here, if that's okay.
(02:01):
Okay, and you know you'refamiliar with child porn, child
sex trafficking, all theseissues and the many other things
, and so you have a pretty goodidea of what's going on here.
And this is not easy, right?
It's a big, complex situationat the end of the day.
So I want to just back up alittle bit.
(02:22):
You started out.
This is part two.
So why did our government turn ablind eye to Jeffrey Epstein's
activities for so long and whyare they now trying to claim
there's nothing to see?
Some argue that it's an effortto protect wealthy and prominent
perpetrators, some of thepeople who show up on Epstein's
Black Book, who flew onEpstein's plane that was
(02:44):
nicknamed the Lolita Express, orvisited Jeffrey Epstein's
island, which is dubbed OrgyIsland.
While it's recognized that noteveryone who shows up on these
lists is guilty of sexuallyexploiting children, there's a
sense that within these lists isa subset of people who are
guilty of many crimes againstchildren and our government is
(03:06):
letting them go, or let them goscot-free, because of their
supposedly importance andinfluence.
But who's being protected andwho's protecting them?
The belief is that ourgovernment investigators know,
and I have no doubt that that'strue.
The reason, though, at the endof the day, you say, is, quite
simply, our government willclaim it's not in the national
(03:29):
security interest, and that'swhy this isn't coming out.
You go into so many things here,but I just want to outline a
couple of things.
Jeffrey Epstein you make thepoint was a brilliant guy, huh,
but he's a man with no moralcompass.
Amen to that.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, one of the arms dealers actually characterized
him that way was Douglas Lease,who was an arms dealer out of
the UK that he worked with andhe recommended Epstein to a guy
named Stephen Hoffenberg whostarted Towers Financial.
And when he recommended him hetold Stephen he says the guy is
a genius and he has no moralcompass.
(04:06):
So basically he was endorsingboth the genius part and the no
moral compass that in this groupof people that operate there's
many of them who really don'tcare about right and wrong, and
that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, and one of his biggest clients and the ones you
were just bringing up thesearms traders for one, and
Jeffrey Epstein goes in andhelps them hide or facilitate
their business transactions, andthen it sets up sophisticated
shelters to help them avoidpaying taxes.
And one example is Leon Black.
(04:47):
I think he's passed away now,right.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
No, he's still alive.
Is he still around?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Apollo Global Management.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Well, he's not with us anymore.
He was replaced at Apollo afterthe Epstein deals.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Epstein deals.
Epstein saved them $500 millionover six years and for that
Epstein made $170 million.
So we're talking about some bigmoney here, tom, and that's
just one of his clients.
So when you're starting to talkabout these things and arms
dealers et cetera, these are big, big dollars going around.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Well, yeah, and one of the big problems that we've
got is that there's so muchsecrecy in everything.
If anybody who's ever lookedinto these networks of financial
transactions and networks ofcorporate interests, you'll see
what they call these shellcorporations that exist offshore
(05:44):
.
They don't really exist foranything.
They live in a desk drawer andthey live in areas where they're
mostly tax havens, butbasically they're there to hide
who owns what and where money isgoing and what it's being used
for, and so there isn't any realI suppose you could say there
(06:08):
is a legitimate purpose for it,but there isn't any good purpose
for this secrecy ininternational finance.
But one of the things thatEpstein was very good at was
setting up these networks ofshell corporations so they could
hide transactions, they couldhide money, they could, you know
(06:29):
, and basically you could makeany amount of money you wanted,
just disappear and make italmost impossible for people to
track.
So he's very good at that, andthere were a lot of people that
wanted that to happen, so theywouldn't have to pay taxes or so
that they could hide whatthey're using the money for, and
that includes governments, andso he was much in demand because
(06:53):
he was so skilled at it.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And this was kind of word of mouth in the beginning
he's building up, and then he'sbuilding up these relationships
among the ultra rich.
These are billionaire typesamong the ultra-rich.
You know, these are billionairetypes and at least initially,
he was not using underage girls.
These were relationships theybuilt up.
These were, you know, I wasgoing to say, legitimate
(07:16):
businesses.
Well, it's not that they'relegitimate businesses, but he
was setting up things that thesepeople needed, you know, to
avoid taxes, to actually, youknow, arms dealers, and this
gets us into the government,doesn't it?
I mean these arms dealers fromIran-Contra and then up.
(07:36):
You know, since then, you know,the intelligence agencies are
working at some levels andsometimes with these arms
dealers to supply thegovernments that we back around
the world.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Well, the Iran-Contra is a good example, because that
was a completely blatantlyillegal operation.
It was engineered by the Reaganadministration to get financial
help to the Contras inNicaragua in exchange for
providing weapons to Iran, bothof which were illegal, and so
(08:11):
they had to do it all in secrecy, and they used people like
Adnan Khashoggi, who was an armstrafficker, and Epstein was
involved with Adnan Khashoggi insetting up the whole network of
shell corporations that hid theoperation from public view.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah, so you could see where somebody with
Epstein's skills, let's say, ortalents, could really come in
handy with these people.
And then, of course, you end upgetting, like you just said,
the US government involved.
And then they got the Israelisright, the Mossad involved, M-16
, you know, the Britishintelligence agencies probably
in on it.
(08:49):
What is it M?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
M-I-6, not, like you know.
Let's not get them confusedwith MS.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, m-i-6.
And then you have the SaudiArabian intelligence agencies in
there too later on.
So so you know he gets to knowall of these people at least at
some level.
Later on, though, tom, he getsintroduced to Jelaine Maxwell,
right, and it seems like hisrelationships and you know he's
(09:19):
attending all these parties,building up relationships, kind
of one, two at a time, right,but it seems like when she came
in, she puts them on a differentpath.
She starts hosting these bigparties, selecting the guests,
and then it seems like you knowwe're going to set up a way to
compromise some of these guests.
Do I have that right, right?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
You know, it's not just.
It isn't just a compromisingthing.
It's creating an atmospherethat makes them more comfortable
, more, you know, more prone todoing bad things it's.
It goes from being a cocktailparty to being some kind of a
(10:02):
party at a fraternity house, Iguess, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Well, sex is a big deal, you know.
And if you can't, you know, youget these rich and powerful
guys together with no moralcompass and you start to
introduce girls, and thensomehow underage girls come into
this picture too, and then yougo.
Well, if the government knowsabout this and they certainly
seemed like it when he wassentenced the first time, right?
(10:29):
I mean, he was sentenced forchild sex trafficking, wasn't?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
he Well, no, he was sentenced to charge with
prostitution and solicitingprostitution from an underage
girl.
He just had two counts in theoriginal one.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
For himself or for clients.
For himself and clients, okay.
And so he got a very lightsentence there and they knew
something was going on rightwhen, basically, he only had to
stay overnight one day a week,got let out six days a week so
he can go to work.
He was out, wasn't he out 12 or13, 14 hours a day.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
He was out 12 hours a day.
I think.
If they extended it a lot oftimes they weren't too strict on
it.
But he was six days a week.
He was out hours a day and eventhe day that he had to be in
the jail he had a really cozykind of cushy cell.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
When you start to talk about how these agencies
like the CIA get involved withsomebody like Epstein, and once
they understand that he, throughthis arrest and more, that he's
condoning the use of underagegirls, let's say and why do they
turn a blind eye to that?
You know, share that story.
You share the story of thisegregious example of misconduct
(11:48):
by the CIA that surfaces duringthe church committee
investigations of the CIA in themid-70s, right in the mid-1970s
.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Operation.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Midnight Climax.
Describe that a little bit,because you start to understand
how far, when you don't have amoral compass and you have the
power of these intelligenceagencies and you're working for
them, it's like a crimeinvestigation.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Right?
Well, you can't, you know.
The thing is that the peoplethat thought up this Operation
Midnight Climax are people who,likewise like Epstein, had no
moral compass.
Likewise, like Epstein had nomoral compass.
Governments have used what theycall honey traps for as long as
(12:31):
civilization has been around.
I mean, they have tried to.
They've used sex to enticepeople, to get information out
of people, to get something onthem in order to blackmail them.
And so, I guess during the 60s,50s and 60s, somebody in the
CIA thought up this bright ideathat hey, let's experiment with
different ways, we can make themost out of using these honey
(12:53):
traps.
And so they got apartments inSan Francisco and in New York
City and they hired prostitutesto go out to cruise bars, and
the prostitutes would drug thedrinks sometimes of the guys.
They would entice them back tothese apartments and they would
seduce them and try to getinformation out of them before,
(13:17):
during and after having sex withthem.
And they used different kindsof drugs to facilitate even more
information.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And then sometimes they were experimenting with
what kind of drugs would get thetruth right?
What's the truth serum here?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
huh, right, right, yeah, scopolamine, lsd,
amphetamines which would be thebest Cocaine.
They did all these things andnow all the people that were all
the men that they were bringingback to the apartments, were
completely unwitting.
They had no idea what was goingon and they would film these,
the encounters that they had,because they had, they had, uh,
(13:52):
you know, hidden cameras thatthey would film the encounter
and they would film the girl,that the girl would try to ice
information out of them and justuh, by, um, you know, by
flattery, by, by, whatever theywould do.
They used a whole bunch ofdifferent things and this thing
went on for I don't know 12years.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
It was over 500 men, that they did 500 men.
Look, I don't know how innocenteach man was, but these were
men that weren't committing, atleast weren't there to kill who
knows right.
They're in a bar, they go backwith a prostitute, but at the
end of the day they weren'tbeing investigated by the cia.
(14:32):
They were just random guys, 500of them being experimented on,
like you just said, with betweenprostitutes and drugs to see
which combination work best toget people to open up and talk
well they would.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
They would get these guys to.
You know they might be married.
They might not be married.
Whatever they would get them toyou know they would entice them
.
And I have to say that you getsomebody drunk and it is taking
advantage of people who arevulnerable, even though, I mean,
they're guys.
You know, yeah, but you knowwhen you inject drugs without
them knowing.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I mean this is overstepping the grounds, right?
I mean, even if I had willpower, you put me on some kind of
weird drug and that I'm not usedto even and I don't know what's
happening to me.
I mean, look at these datedrugs, right, these gang or
these, these, uh rape, yeah,rape drugs that these guys in
colleges put in their girlsdrinks.
(15:28):
So we know it works, right.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Well, and uh date rape, I guess who knows the the
cia may have felt might havehelped develop those things.
Yeah and yeah, but so anyways.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
The point is that that you know we can do some
some really corrupt things.
The government level and let mejust make this point, tom too,
if you think that ourcorporations aren't involved.
You got beer sterns, you've gotJP Morgan Chase, all seeking
these ultra rich clients who nowget close to to Jeffrey Epstein
(16:05):
so that he can introduce themto these ultra-rich clients, and
to the point where they evenblocked, with the SARs,
suspicious activity reports thatyou're supposed to report to
the government $1.5 billion thatthey suspected were for sex
trafficking and they don'treport it.
(16:27):
I mean talk about greed and alack of moral compass, tom.
Yeah well, these are our banks.
Who will investigate Jack over?
You know $10,000?
I take $10,000 out to put downon a car, say, and you know I
got to tell the bank why I'mtaking out $10,000.
(16:47):
You know, and here you got $1.5billion being blocked right
from the government seeing thatactivity.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
But even without those suspicious activity
reports, the government knewwhat was going on.
They couldn't help but knowwhat was going on.
You have to wonder what iswrong with the people that we've
got working in our governmentto be able to do this Now.
Now you know there's, Iunderstand that in order to
catch criminals, sometimes youhave to use not the finest
(17:19):
techniques.
I think I can't remember whichjustice the Supreme Court said
it was it was.
There was a challenge toundercover agents being used in
investigations, because theywere.
They were tricking people intobelieving that they really were
their friend, and so there was achallenge to a conviction based
on an undercover agent beingused.
(17:41):
I don't remember exactly thelanguage.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I mean, you were an undercover.
I mean we know this happens andyou can't act like their enemy,
you have to act like theirfriend.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
But the Supreme Court justice said that it's OK for
federal agents and state agents,law enforcement people, to be
duplicitous in their behavior,which and duplicity is not a
nice thing, it's really not agood, it's not, it's not
virtuous to be duplicitous.
And so you start usingnon-virtuous means in order to
(18:14):
catch the bad guys, and so thenthat is a slippery slope really.
That's really the slipperyslope that you start using
unvirtuous means to accomplishand ends, and then you wind up
becoming, you know, setting upan operation like Operation
Climax.
And how big a leap is that tosaying, well, it's the girl's
really 14, 15 years old, does itreally?
(18:35):
That's not that bad, you know,and look at, really 14, 15 years
old, that's not that bad.
And look at the informationthat we're getting so we can
overlook this.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
And how many of those people you know.
You asked, tom, how could ourgovernment be that corrupt?
Well, the government is made upof people, right?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
And you know what, and there's more and more and
more people that don't have anymoral compass either, or if they
do, it doesn't take them long,right, the greed comes in.
Look, if I'm undercover andeven if I'm not undercover, but
I'm privy to all of this money Imean, when you do drug busts,
when you break down, bringpeople down and there's stacks
(19:11):
of money there and you got guysthat aren't, aren't morally
upright, or other people in yoursquad you know in your group
that you're working with.
They put pressure on you, sayjack, you know, if you're not
going to take, you know, right,if you're not going to take
anything here we all takesomething.
Man, look at, we're just takinga little bit.
Right, we don't get paid.
I know guys like that.
(19:32):
You know that, or they'reundercover, tom, and they said
well, how can I not snort a lineof cocaine?
The guy's looking right at meand it doesn't take much to
start to fall for that kind ofstuff.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
One of the things that I've learned is that
everybody has a price you know.
You may think you don't, but Iguarantee you do, and it just
depends on what that price is,and so the challenge, I think,
in what's happened in ourgovernment is that we have lost
the ability to hold anybodyaccountable.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, I think we lowered the bar so much.
Everything is secret.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Everything is compartmentalized.
Nobody knows what anybody elseis doing.
You know there was a—I'm goingto bring it up in part three of
the Epstein, my Epstein article.
There was a.
One of the depositions I lookedat involved Jeffrey Epstein and
it was after he left BearStearns.
(20:28):
He was deposed by the SEC oncase.
And now here's this is adeposition.
This is an official governmentdeposition.
When I'm reading the deposition, they've got all these names
blacked out, but it's not thenames of some innocent party.
It's not the name.
Epstein's name wasn't blackedout.
(20:48):
It was the names of thegovernment investigators asking
the questions.
Now, these are people that workfor the government.
Why are you blacking out theirnames?
Why are you blacking out theircontact information out of the
deposition?
This is a government agency.
This is insane.
This kind of why are they doingit?
(21:09):
I don't know, it doesn't makeany sense.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And so, but basically it's just this idea that
everything is secret.
Everything needs to be, yeah,protecting the minor.
Let's say you got somebody, alittle girl or something you say
(21:38):
Jane Doe, to protect their.
But these people are all adultsthat are bringing these charges
.
We should know their names.
They should not be anonymous.
The files, the records in thegrand jury should not be secret.
These are once the cases comeout.
These things should be public.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
And if I am on the fence, you know if I'm working
for a government agency or acorporation, or Beer Stearns,
you know when they were stillaround, or Chase, you know, and
I'm greedy, you know and I'mselfish and look and I'm on the
fence and nobody's supervising.
And look and I'm on the fenceand nobody's supervising me.
And I know nobody's reallywatching me or they're turning
(22:20):
the other way.
This really gives me the powerto come in and do this.
And if there's enough people,tom, that are willing to do this
, the good guys realize that theyou know that the people ahead
of them, their bosses or theirbosses' bosses, are in on the
take or in on the action, orthey don't know and they're
(22:40):
afraid to expose this.
You know it's not an easysystem to break down.
Once the deep state let's callit the deep state, you know I
mean layers of corruption comein.
It's not easy.
You know who really made thatclear.
You mentioned it in the articlewhen Dan Bongino, kash Patel,
pam Bondi, when they started tohim and Haw and turn the other
(23:02):
way and you see, wow,something's really going on here
.
I just read something from DanBongino.
He said this Tom, I'd like toget your take on this.
He said you know he promises adignified effort on the truth
going forward.
He said we can't run a republiclike this.
Dan Bongino says he goes afterinvestigating this and looking
(23:25):
into it, I'll never be the sameafter learning what I've learned
.
And his face was really likewhoa, I had no idea, right.
So he said on a social mediapost just last week that the
agency is conducting multipleinvestigations relating to
alleged public corruption andweaponization of government.
(23:45):
He said the director and I arecommitted to stamping out public
corruption and the politicalweaponization of both the law
enforcement and intelligenceoperations.
But you realize what they're upagainst, right?
This is tough.
This is tough stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
You know, dan Bongino was a secret service.
He was a New York City policeofficer and he was a secret
service agent.
He didn't get into all thisstuff.
I mean, this is you know,people, unless you've been
inside the intelligence network,you just have no concept of the
potential for corruption thatexists in there and that
(24:25):
everybody is going to be corruptif they can live in darkness.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Well, not everybody, but let's just say that.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
I don't know.
I've seen some very—.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Because if that's true, tom, well here, if the
point being, if you've given into darkness and you're living
that way already and you haveno—you don't bring light, let's
just call it what it is If youdon't have a faith in God and
there's nothing but just thisworld for you, then you can go
into it.
You're going to go into, youknow you're going to go into
(24:58):
dark places.
You're right, and you know, ifthere's no hope, no light.
Again, I get back to Paul inEphesians 6,.
You know, we're not fightingagainst flesh and blood, but the
powers and the principalities,the rulers of this world.
He calls them and he's talkingabout the demonic Tom.
So, from that standpoint, youknow, if you don't have a power
(25:21):
of good, if you don't have thepower of a light within you,
then, yeah, I think the defaultposition for human beings is sin
and death.
Let's face it.
You know this is biblical, youknow.
If you don't find a savior sinand death.
You're looking at a six foothole, tom, and you know people
say, hey, let's take what we can, let's take what we can while
(25:42):
we got the chance.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
But the other thing yeah, it's true that if you have
your Savior and if you focus onbeing faithful, that maybe you
might be able to overcome it.
But really, Christians werebuilt to be in community and
unless you have somebody holdingyou accountable, you're going
to fall.
I don't care who you are, Idon't care what your faith is,
(26:07):
If you're out there alone andnobody knows.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
I get your point now.
Okay, I see what you mean now,and so if you can, once you
operate.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah, even Jesus sent them out two by two, you know
right and and, uh, you know,billy graham was able to stay on
the right path because he hadpeople who held held him
accountable.
Yeah, no, no doubt about it.
But what's happening in ourgovernment is nobody's holding
them accountable.
There there's no accountabilityand and it's and it's getting
(26:35):
worse every year, and so thatthen these kind of cases look,
the Epstein case is probably the?
Um, the largest, longest childsex trafficking operation I've
ever seen, and it was organizedand people knew about it and
nothing was done about it yeah,but you know, I think about even
(26:57):
the church, you know even theCatholic church, when you
investigated the crimes in therelook at it, I mean even within
the church itself.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
You know we have these dark places.
So I just want to broaden thisout because when people wonder
what they can do, everybody theBonginos, the Kash Patels, the
Pam Bondys, trump, me, you,everybody has to do their part
wherever that part is.
And we got to do it.
Like you said, in community, wegot to.
You know, that's why we call itthe body.
(27:26):
The body is the church.
You know, we don't try to dothese things by ourselves, but
even that can be corrupted.
Bongino said this Tom, theleadership of this
administration and the work ofthe men and women of law
enforcement have now, since theTrump administration came in, he
said there's no doubt thecountry is safer.
Now what that means exactly?
(27:47):
He says this, he goes the FBIhas carried out more than 12,000
violent crime arrests andseized more than 3,000 pounds of
fentanyl, more than 136,000pounds of cocaine, 11,000 pounds
of meth and amphetamines,27,000 pounds of marijuana, more
than 21,900 immigrationenforcement-related arrests, all
(28:12):
since January.
You know, the scope of thisthing is amazing, tom, and
unless everybody starts to standup and say because I know
people are on the sidelines,right and they and they're just
armchair quarterbacking this,and I think your article, you
know, makes it clear this is abig, big, big problem and, at
the end of the day, how do yousolve those problems?
(28:33):
You know, every person has totake this on and decide that I
am going to do good, and it'snot easy.
It's not easy because thepowers are against you.
You're not going to make asmuch money, you're not going to
have as much control.
You know, if somebody'sdangling out sex, money, power
in front of somebody, and I'mmaking, you know, $70,000 a year
(28:56):
and I can make 10 times thatit's pretty enticing for people.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Well, let's put it this way the Iran-Contra affair
that was a blatant violation oflaw.
The people that were involvedin it, in engineering it, in
carrying it out, those peoplenone of them faced any
consequences whatsoever, and thepeople that wound up being
convicted were pardoned.
And even though it was a clearviolation of the law.
Now you can't allow that tohappen.
This is not the kind of thingthat but it does.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
And it does happen and the solution to that.
I know you're writing that inpart three.
But, as I start to really lookat this.
You know there'll be peoplesaying, well, they need to go
after this guy, and that's true,it's true.
But here I was just talking toa—I was doing what they call an
in-service in a school, aCatholic school for teachers,
(29:50):
right, and it's all womenteachers there.
And how many we start to talkabout, how many of the young
girls guys too, of course, butyoung girls have no protection
because they have no fathers inthe house either through divorce
, being born out of wedlock, etcetera, et cetera.
The young boys, oh, that theydon't have fathers.
(30:12):
And so you know, if you havesex on your mind versus you know
caring about and of course, allyoung guys have sex on their
mind.
They don't even understand whatthat is.
But if you're going to usesomebody as an object instead of
just seeing the beauty of oursexuality, they go after those
girls that don't have fathers.
They know that they're easier,right?
(30:34):
Then another teacher said to meshe goes, jack, I saw this young
guy caught him on his phoneshowing another boy pornography.
So I caught him right in theact of having it on his phone.
I came up right behind him, heputs it in his pocket and I go.
You know you're going to haveto go down to the principal with
me and he goes.
You know what?
I don't care, my dad's into'sinto pornography.
(30:55):
He watches pornography.
So my point being, this time,either we don't have parents
that that, in general, that are,uh, you know, instilling these
morals and values down to eachone of us, or they're implicit,
you know, or you know they're inon the action already, right?
Oh?
So what kind of you know?
(31:16):
Who are we to judge?
Now, right, you know, all thesepeople like cash, patel and
bongino are trying, all thesedifferent people are trying, but
they're up against a huge arrayof people that maybe have no
idea and again I'm generalizinghere, right, yeah of really how
to stand up against all of theevil that they're facing.
(31:36):
These are tough tasks.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Well, first of all, you got to break it down into a
very simple thing.
You have to have some system ofholding people accountable
really, and the best way to holdpeople accountable is to shed
light on what's going on.
So there's got to be the leastamount of secrecy that there is.
(31:59):
You know, there's a murder of aCatholic what's his name?
Frank Pellegrini.
That happened and I think itwas 1984, that I've been
investigating.
I can't remember the exact dateof his murder, but he was kind
of a key figure in some of thesex issues in the Catholic
(32:21):
Church back in the 80s andseveral different agencies have
investigated the murder.
But when we try to getinformation about those cases,
since the case is not solved,since the crime isn't solved,
the police say well, it's anopen case, so we can't give you
any information.
There's all kinds of cases likethat.
(32:44):
There's cases that haven't anycase that hasn't been solved.
They can say, well, you can'thave it because it's under
investigation, so it's allsecret and it's not subject to
review.
Well, this allows agencies tobe incompetent.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Is there a solution to that, though?
I mean, there are times, right,tom?
I would suspect that Well ifthey feel like it?
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Yeah, if they feel like it, they'll give it to you.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
You know, that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It's going to be very frustrating.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Okay, when he was indicted, he was indicted for
crimes that occurred between2002 and 2005, which was the
(33:45):
same period of time that he hadbeen convicted back in 2007.
When he was convicted in 2007,there was a non-prosecution
agreement that was signed thathe signed and then all these
other people signed saying thatnothing that happened before
this time can you be charged,nobody that you've been involved
with and nothing that you'vedone that happened before this
(34:07):
time.
You can be charged withanything again.
And so now he was charged byand had to be approved approved
by Bill Barr, who was theattorney general at the time.
He was charged with thesecrimes that occurred between
2002 and 2005, which was theexact period.
There were different crimesthan what he was charged with in
2007, but it was the exactperiod of time that the
(34:30):
non-prosecution agreementcovered.
Well, the Southern District ofNew York said well, that was a
different district, so itdoesn't apply to us.
I contend that he could havefought that case and won because
he had a non-prosecutionagreement, because it was with
the US government.
Now, meanwhile, we know thatthere's all these other massive
(34:52):
crimes that have occurred since2007 that they should have been
aware of and they didn't evenbring any charges against them.
So they charge them for allthese earlier crimes and Bill
Barr had to be approving of it.
I contend that this wasintentional, that this was
intentionally.
They were intentionallythrowing the case.
(35:13):
They were trying to make itlook like they were
intentionally throwing the case.
They were trying to make itlook like they were doing
something and they said oh, lookat this, Technicality gets off
on it.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
So I mean, what's behind?
Again, you know I don't want toget in the weeds here too much
more, but I mean, all of theseissues that we're talking about,
does it just become too manypeople in the government will be
exposed?
Is that what they're coveringup?
Look, we know again.
We talked about it already.
This is a big network ofcorruption.
But when they do that, arethere specific when you say,
okay, we've got intelligencesecrets, we can't expose this
(35:49):
stuff.
Why can't we shed light on itnow, tom, looking back, this is
going back 20 years now.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Well, because we have an illusion of transparency.
We have an illusion of being ina country that respects the
will of the people, and I thinkwe have people in government
that don't want to be heldaccountable to the people or to
be held accountable for anythingthat they want to do, what they
want to do, without anyoversight.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
So I think that's really what they're protecting
is their own power.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, Well, that's, I mean that's the theory of the
deep state, right.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
You know we're going to stay in power.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
We saw this with Trump.
They're investigating theRussian collusion.
You can't make this stuff up.
I mean, this is going rightinto everybody, from the
president, you know, from Obama,the Clintons, you know, etc.
And it's amazing, you know,when they're in power, what
they'll do when we start tothink about, you know, the rich
(36:42):
versus the poor.
There's a double-tiered justicesystem there, but it goes after
the rich too.
If you don't kowtow to what youjust said, right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I don't really know all the.
I don't have all the answerswith this Epstein case, but it
really is a case study thatshould be examined very
thoroughly because we this is.
Epstein was a fascinating guy,I mean, he was apparently.
He was very likable because hehad a lot of friends and he was
(37:19):
very sociable.
He got along with a lot ofpeople.
He had a lot of differentinterests, he went to many
parties.
I don't know what caused thechange when he became
romantically involved withGhislaine Maxwell.
I don't know why they shiftedinto using using girls in order
(37:41):
to and you know, but it'sbasically arms deals and stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
You make clear this was over already.
Right, this kind of stuff wasover already.
So that's almost like part twoof his his life, you know, when
he gets involved in it, two ofhis life.
You know, when he gets involvedin it, you have somebody
brilliant.
You know, as we start to winddown here, tom, you have
somebody brilliant, likable,interested in a lot of different
things, and instead of again,instead of doing good, right,
(38:07):
I'm going to use that just formy own greed.
However, that works, and you'regoing to be caught down, tom.
We get caught into these things.
We know each person I know hasbeen gone down some hole that
they shouldn't have gone down intheir life right Some sin.
So we know from experience.
I was just talking to somebodyabout the famous exorcist,
(38:31):
father Gabriel Amorth from Rome.
He's passed away now, but itwas an amazing man and he talked
about this experience.
You know that experience oflife.
You have to remember thosethings because he said, each one
of us can fall down into that.
And, like John Paul said, whatcan I do?
I'm going to get frustrated.
No, don't get frustrated.
You just have to know thatthese battles are taking place
(38:53):
on the individual human heart.
And my point with somebody likeJeffrey Epstein, he could have
did so good.
So much good with his life, tom,and still been a
multimillionaire, you know,still been very rich and done
good things, and it's so sadwhen you see this and now he's
gone things and it's so sad whenyou see this and now he's gone.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
When you look at his early career, though, when he
was doing the work with theBritish and their arms deal with
Saudi Arabia and theIran-Contra deal, he was working
for the government.
I mean, he was really doingthat.
He wasn't doing things thatwere particularly wrong.
It certainly wasn't doinganything illegal.
From the standpoint of hisposition, he didn't see it as
(39:35):
being illegal because he's thegovernment's involved in it.
How could you consider it to beillegal?
And he was making a lot ofmoney.
He worked with a lot ofdifferent people and then, when
he went with Towers Financialand got involved in that whole
deal, that's when he startedreally getting into questionable
areas, because more money, youknow you want more money.
(39:55):
More money you got, you getmore money you want, and so
that's the kind of thing that hegot into, and he started going
downhill from there.
But he was not involved in anykind of trafficking, of human
trafficking certainly notinvolved with children and when
he started with GhislaineMaxwell it started as kind of a
(40:16):
small thing.
It was just local girls thatthey were dealing with and they
were trying to bring into theoperation, but then it grew into
this.
It met $1.5 billion in humantrafficking.
This is how can you, how canthis happen?
One person, one organizationyeah.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
One organization is involved in this, and that
wasn't like you make explicit inthe article, that wasn't the
profit from it.
That's just what he wasspending.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
That's what he was spending, that's what's he
making off of this.
And so this is a massiveoperation, doing regular
business kind of things andmaking a lot of money, because
he was good at it to becomingthis really monstrously evil
kind of person and traffickingin girls, and it's like so what
(41:04):
happened?
How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Well, you know, in general, without the specifics
on this case, you know you lookat the guys all over the world
that have gotten into this.
Take somebody like Stalin.
When Stalin was a young guy, hewas in the seminary to be a
priest.
When you start slowly, whathappens to all of us?
I have friends of mine thatI've seen go down these holes
(41:28):
where they get to my age now andthey almost can't find
themselves anymore.
And it's small steps, tom, Itake these small steps.
I get involved in this, this,this, this, this, and pretty
soon you know Satan is a smartdude man.
You know, I mean, you know youthink you're so smart you're
setting up this big web of money.
(41:48):
Well, there's another web that'sgot you wrapped up you know,
and so many of these people inyour article have died now.
They met their maker.
You know, in Catholic theology,tom, the last things, we call
it the four key realitiesconcerning the end of an
individual's life and the end ofthe world, and that's death,
(42:08):
judgment, heaven and hell Verywell known, right, and we're all
going to be there, my friend.
And at the end of the day, allthat money Christ talks about it
so often.
He says what are you going todo with all that money and all
those treasures?
He said, you know you can haveall that.
What good have you done ifyou've got all these treasures
and you've lost your eternalsoul?
(42:29):
And that's what we do.
And so it still becomes thisbattle between good and evil.
And for all of our listeners,you know, just make sure that
your heart's in the right spot.
You know that you're passingthese virtues and stuff down to
our kids.
Stay married, as hard as thatcould be with some people, you
know, when you get divorced andthese families break up.
(42:50):
I see these kids, tom, becausewe have an apostle that we call
it for young people, and youngpeople even in high school.
You see this brokenness in thisculture today, when these young
people don't have any moraltruths anymore and they're
getting blown around by thespirit of the age.
Now just think if they are allgoing into government later on,
(43:11):
or whatever, you know whatever.
Are they going to bring goodinto the world?
Even if they want to?
They don't understand what thatgood is and, again, they don't
have the power to do good, evenif they want to right.
They're going to be taken intothese circumstances.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Well, we really have to start bringing people up in a
virtuous way again, and so wehave to return to some of the
classical education that we usedto get, because I'll tell you
that the people that are goinginto government right now are
people that seem very willing totake shortcuts to get to where
they want, and those shortcutslead to some pretty terrible
(43:50):
places?
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, and even the simple-minded ones, you know,
not the brilliant ones thesimple-minded ones.
They get caught at theirbureaucrats and they want their
little power and they want tomake sure they got their little
jobs and that you know they'reimportant.
And so I know this in business,when I was just building small
businesses up, some bureaucratcan you know, all I need is
(44:13):
their signature in order to geta building done or in order to
remodel something or whatever itwas, and they could come in and
they just him haul around andyou know, tom, they want you to
give them something.
I lost whole contracts, goodcontracts for me, just because I
wouldn't grease some guy's palm.
And you look back at it and yougo, man, my life could have
(44:35):
been so much easier if I wouldhave just paid this guy five
grand or eight or whatever itwas.
You know, sometimes thereweren't huge amounts of money
and because I stood on someprinciple, you know you lose it.
You lose it.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
I mean it's been.
Chicago was praised years agoabout having the best building
code in the country or something.
No, they had the building codelike that so they could extract
bribes out of people.
It's just so ridiculous.
It's happening all over andit's happening today at all
levels, tom.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
So each one of us are fighting these battles.
So the battle of the Bonginoand Kash Patel.
It's good to see good peopleand I just think you know and
good leadership is going to helpbecause other people will come
up.
But, man, this is a big battle.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
This is really a big battle.
It's a huge problem.
It's not something that theycan't just say.
Here are the files, we'reopening them up.
The government needs to do someserious investigation of this.
We need another churchcommittee is what we need.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
So yeah, who put that church committee together in
the beginning?
Do you know a little?
We only got a minute left but.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
It was, I don't know, Senator Church or
Representative Church orsomething, but it was a select
committee.
It had people from both theHouse and the Senate that looked
into it, that investigated theintelligence community, and they
got a lot of information.
But I'm not sure that we haveenough of a nonpartisan or a
cooperative arrangement inCongress today to be able to
(46:05):
pull that off.
It's just they were socontentious.
You got the Republicans versusthe, the democrats.
It's like you need.
You need people that worktogether, um, toward finding out
what happened and making thingsright, and I don't know that
we've got people on both sidesof the aisle willing to do that
well, here, here's, here's how Iwant to add into it.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
I'll straighten them up tom, here's how I'm going to
end this thing.
This is matthew, chapter 7,verse 13 the narrow gate.
Huh, if this doesn't sum thisthing up, enter by the narrow
gate, for the gate is wide andthe way is easy.
That leads to destruction, andthose who enter it are many, for
(46:46):
the gate is narrow and the wayis hard.
That leads to life, and thosewho find it are few.
So this is Jesus going back,you know, over 2,000 years ago,
and says hey, dude, go throughthe narrow gate.
It's not going to be easy, andthose who find it are few, and
the gate is wide and the way iseasy.
(47:06):
That leads to your destruction,and those who enter that gate
are many.
And it's no different todaythan it was in Jesus' time.
Tom, you know our job is to getourselves and our families to
heaven and then take it out inthe world and do whatever good
we can, and that's our job.
And so I sum it up like that,because you shouldn't get
(47:29):
depressed about this thing.
You know, make sure that you'rereceiving the light and you're
doing your part.
And God, you know, let God beGod, because you know we're
facing something that's beyondjust Trump can do it or Bongino
can do it.
Kash Patel, no, don't wait forthem.
I hope they do their job and Ihope I do my job too.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
We have to have a revival of the church.
We also need to have a revivalof a sense of public service.
Yes, yes, people need to lookat working for government as a
service and that they need towalk in there and go into that
(48:13):
position, trying to do the bestthey can as a patriotic endeavor
, rather than just making money.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Well, and that's what gets back to that classic
education that you're talkingabout, because these kids are
not taught that, they're nottaught to be patriots, they're
not taught to be servants.
Right, it's all about DEI andtaking, taking, taking.
So we're training these kidsfor that.
So, hey, hey, brother, you'reright, we got to get back to
that too.
So, god bless you.
When's article three going tobe ready?
Speaker 1 (48:45):
I don't know It'll be within two weeks.
I don't think it'll be as long.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
There's a lot going on there, hey Tom, thank you so
much.
Thanks everyone.
Thanks for joining us today.
We'll talk to you again soon.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Bye-bye.
They got apartments in San Francisco and in New York
City and they hired prostitutesto go out to cruise bars and
the prostitutes would drug thedrink, sometimes to the guys.
They would entice them back tothese apartments and they would
seduce them and try to getinformation out of them before,
(00:22):
during and after having sex withthem.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Dan Bongino says he goes after investigating this
and looking into it.
I'll never be the same afterlearning what I've learned.
And his face was really likewhoa, I had no idea, right.
So he said on a social mediapost just last week that the
agency is conducting multipleinvestigations relating to
(00:44):
alleged public corruption andweaponization of government.
He said the director and I arecommitted to stamping out public
corruption and the politicalweaponization of both the law
enforcement's and intelligenceoperations.
But you realize what they're upagainst.
I get back to Paul in Ephesians6, you know we're not fighting
(01:06):
against flesh and blood, but thepowers and the principalities,
the rulers of this world.
He calls them and he's talkingabout the demonic all that money
.
Christ talks about it so often.
He says what are you going todo with all that money and all
those treasures?
He said you know you can haveall that.
What good have you done if yougot all these treasures and
you've lost your eternal soul?
(01:41):
Welcome to the Become who youAre podcast, a production of the
John Paul II Renewal Center.
I'm Jack Riggert, your host.
I'm back with a good friend,crime investigator and crime
journalist, tom Hampson.
Tom, you wrote part two of yourJeffrey Epstein's articles, the
Troubling Case of JeffreyEpstein.
I'm going to just read youropener here, if that's okay.
(02:01):
Okay, and you know you'refamiliar with child porn, child
sex trafficking, all theseissues and the many other things
, and so you have a pretty goodidea of what's going on here.
And this is not easy, right?
It's a big, complex situationat the end of the day.
So I want to just back up alittle bit.
(02:22):
You started out.
This is part two.
So why did our government turn ablind eye to Jeffrey Epstein's
activities for so long and whyare they now trying to claim
there's nothing to see?
Some argue that it's an effortto protect wealthy and prominent
perpetrators, some of thepeople who show up on Epstein's
Black Book, who flew onEpstein's plane that was
(02:44):
nicknamed the Lolita Express, orvisited Jeffrey Epstein's
island, which is dubbed OrgyIsland.
While it's recognized that noteveryone who shows up on these
lists is guilty of sexuallyexploiting children, there's a
sense that within these lists isa subset of people who are
guilty of many crimes againstchildren and our government is
(03:06):
letting them go, or let them goscot-free, because of their
supposedly importance andinfluence.
But who's being protected andwho's protecting them?
The belief is that ourgovernment investigators know,
and I have no doubt that that'strue.
The reason, though, at the endof the day, you say, is, quite
simply, our government willclaim it's not in the national
(03:29):
security interest, and that'swhy this isn't coming out.
You go into so many things here,but I just want to outline a
couple of things.
Jeffrey Epstein you make thepoint was a brilliant guy, huh,
but he's a man with no moralcompass.
Amen to that.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, one of the arms dealers actually characterized
him that way was Douglas Lease,who was an arms dealer out of
the UK that he worked with andhe recommended Epstein to a guy
named Stephen Hoffenberg whostarted Towers Financial.
And when he recommended him hetold Stephen he says the guy is
a genius and he has no moralcompass.
(04:06):
So basically he was endorsingboth the genius part and the no
moral compass that in this groupof people that operate there's
many of them who really don'tcare about right and wrong, and
that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, and one of his biggest clients and the ones you
were just bringing up thesearms traders for one, and
Jeffrey Epstein goes in andhelps them hide or facilitate
their business transactions, andthen it sets up sophisticated
shelters to help them avoidpaying taxes.
And one example is Leon Black.
(04:47):
I think he's passed away now,right.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
No, he's still alive.
Is he still around?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Apollo Global Management.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Well, he's not with us anymore.
He was replaced at Apollo afterthe Epstein deals.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Epstein deals.
Epstein saved them $500 millionover six years and for that
Epstein made $170 million.
So we're talking about some bigmoney here, tom, and that's
just one of his clients.
So when you're starting to talkabout these things and arms
dealers et cetera, these are big, big dollars going around.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Well, yeah, and one of the big problems that we've
got is that there's so muchsecrecy in everything.
If anybody who's ever lookedinto these networks of financial
transactions and networks ofcorporate interests, you'll see
what they call these shellcorporations that exist offshore
(05:44):
.
They don't really exist foranything.
They live in a desk drawer andthey live in areas where they're
mostly tax havens, butbasically they're there to hide
who owns what and where money isgoing and what it's being used
for, and so there isn't any realI suppose you could say there
(06:08):
is a legitimate purpose for it,but there isn't any good purpose
for this secrecy ininternational finance.
But one of the things thatEpstein was very good at was
setting up these networks ofshell corporations so they could
hide transactions, they couldhide money, they could, you know
(06:29):
, and basically you could makeany amount of money you wanted,
just disappear and make italmost impossible for people to
track.
So he's very good at that, andthere were a lot of people that
wanted that to happen, so theywouldn't have to pay taxes or so
that they could hide whatthey're using the money for, and
that includes governments, andso he was much in demand because
(06:53):
he was so skilled at it.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And this was kind of word of mouth in the beginning
he's building up, and then he'sbuilding up these relationships
among the ultra rich.
These are billionaire typesamong the ultra-rich.
You know, these are billionairetypes and at least initially,
he was not using underage girls.
These were relationships theybuilt up.
These were, you know, I wasgoing to say, legitimate
(07:16):
businesses.
Well, it's not that they'relegitimate businesses, but he
was setting up things that thesepeople needed, you know, to
avoid taxes, to actually, youknow, arms dealers, and this
gets us into the government,doesn't it?
I mean these arms dealers fromIran-Contra and then up.
(07:36):
You know, since then, you know,the intelligence agencies are
working at some levels andsometimes with these arms
dealers to supply thegovernments that we back around
the world.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Well, the Iran-Contra is a good example, because that
was a completely blatantlyillegal operation.
It was engineered by the Reaganadministration to get financial
help to the Contras inNicaragua in exchange for
providing weapons to Iran, bothof which were illegal, and so
(08:11):
they had to do it all in secrecy, and they used people like
Adnan Khashoggi, who was an armstrafficker, and Epstein was
involved with Adnan Khashoggi insetting up the whole network of
shell corporations that hid theoperation from public view.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah, so you could see where somebody with
Epstein's skills, let's say, ortalents, could really come in
handy with these people.
And then, of course, you end upgetting, like you just said,
the US government involved.
And then they got the Israelisright, the Mossad involved, M-16
, you know, the Britishintelligence agencies probably
in on it.
(08:49):
What is it M?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
M-I-6, not, like you know.
Let's not get them confusedwith MS.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, m-i-6.
And then you have the SaudiArabian intelligence agencies in
there too later on.
So so you know he gets to knowall of these people at least at
some level.
Later on, though, tom, he getsintroduced to Jelaine Maxwell,
right, and it seems like hisrelationships and you know he's
(09:19):
attending all these parties,building up relationships, kind
of one, two at a time, right,but it seems like when she came
in, she puts them on a differentpath.
She starts hosting these bigparties, selecting the guests,
and then it seems like you knowwe're going to set up a way to
compromise some of these guests.
Do I have that right, right?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
You know, it's not just.
It isn't just a compromisingthing.
It's creating an atmospherethat makes them more comfortable
, more, you know, more prone todoing bad things it's.
It goes from being a cocktailparty to being some kind of a
(10:02):
party at a fraternity house, Iguess, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Well, sex is a big deal, you know.
And if you can't, you know, youget these rich and powerful
guys together with no moralcompass and you start to
introduce girls, and thensomehow underage girls come into
this picture too, and then yougo.
Well, if the government knowsabout this and they certainly
seemed like it when he wassentenced the first time, right?
(10:29):
I mean, he was sentenced forchild sex trafficking, wasn't?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
he Well, no, he was sentenced to charge with
prostitution and solicitingprostitution from an underage
girl.
He just had two counts in theoriginal one.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
For himself or for clients.
For himself and clients, okay.
And so he got a very lightsentence there and they knew
something was going on rightwhen, basically, he only had to
stay overnight one day a week,got let out six days a week so
he can go to work.
He was out, wasn't he out 12 or13, 14 hours a day.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
He was out 12 hours a day.
I think.
If they extended it a lot oftimes they weren't too strict on
it.
But he was six days a week.
He was out hours a day and eventhe day that he had to be in
the jail he had a really cozykind of cushy cell.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
When you start to talk about how these agencies
like the CIA get involved withsomebody like Epstein, and once
they understand that he, throughthis arrest and more, that he's
condoning the use of underagegirls, let's say and why do they
turn a blind eye to that?
You know, share that story.
You share the story of thisegregious example of misconduct
(11:48):
by the CIA that surfaces duringthe church committee
investigations of the CIA in themid-70s, right in the mid-1970s
.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Operation.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Midnight Climax.
Describe that a little bit,because you start to understand
how far, when you don't have amoral compass and you have the
power of these intelligenceagencies and you're working for
them, it's like a crimeinvestigation.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Right?
Well, you can't, you know.
The thing is that the peoplethat thought up this Operation
Midnight Climax are people who,likewise like Epstein, had no
moral compass.
Likewise, like Epstein had nomoral compass.
Governments have used what theycall honey traps for as long as
(12:31):
civilization has been around.
I mean, they have tried to.
They've used sex to enticepeople, to get information out
of people, to get something onthem in order to blackmail them.
And so, I guess during the 60s,50s and 60s, somebody in the
CIA thought up this bright ideathat hey, let's experiment with
different ways, we can make themost out of using these honey
(12:53):
traps.
And so they got apartments inSan Francisco and in New York
City and they hired prostitutesto go out to cruise bars, and
the prostitutes would drug thedrinks sometimes of the guys.
They would entice them back tothese apartments and they would
seduce them and try to getinformation out of them before,
(13:17):
during and after having sex withthem.
And they used different kindsof drugs to facilitate even more
information.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And then sometimes they were experimenting with
what kind of drugs would get thetruth right?
What's the truth serum here?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
huh, right, right, yeah, scopolamine, lsd,
amphetamines which would be thebest Cocaine.
They did all these things andnow all the people that were all
the men that they were bringingback to the apartments, were
completely unwitting.
They had no idea what was goingon and they would film these,
the encounters that they had,because they had, they had, uh,
(13:52):
you know, hidden cameras thatthey would film the encounter
and they would film the girl,that the girl would try to ice
information out of them and justuh, by, um, you know, by
flattery, by, by, whatever theywould do.
They used a whole bunch ofdifferent things and this thing
went on for I don't know 12years.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
It was over 500 men, that they did 500 men.
Look, I don't know how innocenteach man was, but these were
men that weren't committing, atleast weren't there to kill who
knows right.
They're in a bar, they go backwith a prostitute, but at the
end of the day they weren'tbeing investigated by the cia.
(14:32):
They were just random guys, 500of them being experimented on,
like you just said, with betweenprostitutes and drugs to see
which combination work best toget people to open up and talk
well they would.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
They would get these guys to.
You know they might be married.
They might not be married.
Whatever they would get them toyou know they would entice them
.
And I have to say that you getsomebody drunk and it is taking
advantage of people who arevulnerable, even though, I mean,
they're guys.
You know, yeah, but you knowwhen you inject drugs without
them knowing.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I mean this is overstepping the grounds, right?
I mean, even if I had willpower, you put me on some kind of
weird drug and that I'm not usedto even and I don't know what's
happening to me.
I mean, look at these datedrugs, right, these gang or
these, these, uh rape, yeah,rape drugs that these guys in
colleges put in their girlsdrinks.
(15:28):
So we know it works, right.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Well, and uh date rape, I guess who knows the the
cia may have felt might havehelped develop those things.
Yeah and yeah, but so anyways.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
The point is that that you know we can do some
some really corrupt things.
The government level and let mejust make this point, tom too,
if you think that ourcorporations aren't involved.
You got beer sterns, you've gotJP Morgan Chase, all seeking
these ultra rich clients who nowget close to to Jeffrey Epstein
(16:05):
so that he can introduce themto these ultra-rich clients, and
to the point where they evenblocked, with the SARs,
suspicious activity reports thatyou're supposed to report to
the government $1.5 billion thatthey suspected were for sex
trafficking and they don'treport it.
(16:27):
I mean talk about greed and alack of moral compass, tom.
Yeah well, these are our banks.
Who will investigate Jack over?
You know $10,000?
I take $10,000 out to put downon a car, say, and you know I
got to tell the bank why I'mtaking out $10,000.
(16:47):
You know, and here you got $1.5billion being blocked right
from the government seeing thatactivity.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
But even without those suspicious activity
reports, the government knewwhat was going on.
They couldn't help but knowwhat was going on.
You have to wonder what iswrong with the people that we've
got working in our governmentto be able to do this Now.
Now you know there's, Iunderstand that in order to
catch criminals, sometimes youhave to use not the finest
(17:19):
techniques.
I think I can't remember whichjustice the Supreme Court said
it was it was.
There was a challenge toundercover agents being used in
investigations, because theywere.
They were tricking people intobelieving that they really were
their friend, and so there was achallenge to a conviction based
on an undercover agent beingused.
(17:41):
I don't remember exactly thelanguage.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I mean, you were an undercover.
I mean we know this happens andyou can't act like their enemy,
you have to act like theirfriend.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
But the Supreme Court justice said that it's OK for
federal agents and state agents,law enforcement people, to be
duplicitous in their behavior,which and duplicity is not a
nice thing, it's really not agood, it's not, it's not
virtuous to be duplicitous.
And so you start usingnon-virtuous means in order to
(18:14):
catch the bad guys, and so thenthat is a slippery slope really.
That's really the slipperyslope that you start using
unvirtuous means to accomplishand ends, and then you wind up
becoming, you know, setting upan operation like Operation
Climax.
And how big a leap is that tosaying, well, it's the girl's
really 14, 15 years old, does itreally?
(18:35):
That's not that bad, you know,and look at, really 14, 15 years
old, that's not that bad.
And look at the informationthat we're getting so we can
overlook this.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
And how many of those people you know.
You asked, tom, how could ourgovernment be that corrupt?
Well, the government is made upof people, right?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
And you know what, and there's more and more and
more people that don't have anymoral compass either, or if they
do, it doesn't take them long,right, the greed comes in.
Look, if I'm undercover andeven if I'm not undercover, but
I'm privy to all of this money Imean, when you do drug busts,
when you break down, bringpeople down and there's stacks
(19:11):
of money there and you got guysthat aren't, aren't morally
upright, or other people in yoursquad you know in your group
that you're working with.
They put pressure on you, sayjack, you know, if you're not
going to take, you know, right,if you're not going to take
anything here we all takesomething.
Man, look at, we're just takinga little bit.
Right, we don't get paid.
I know guys like that.
(19:32):
You know that, or they'reundercover, tom, and they said
well, how can I not snort a lineof cocaine?
The guy's looking right at meand it doesn't take much to
start to fall for that kind ofstuff.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
One of the things that I've learned is that
everybody has a price you know.
You may think you don't, but Iguarantee you do, and it just
depends on what that price is,and so the challenge, I think,
in what's happened in ourgovernment is that we have lost
the ability to hold anybodyaccountable.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, I think we lowered the bar so much.
Everything is secret.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Everything is compartmentalized.
Nobody knows what anybody elseis doing.
You know there was a—I'm goingto bring it up in part three of
the Epstein, my Epstein article.
There was a.
One of the depositions I lookedat involved Jeffrey Epstein and
it was after he left BearStearns.
(20:28):
He was deposed by the SEC oncase.
And now here's this is adeposition.
This is an official governmentdeposition.
When I'm reading the deposition, they've got all these names
blacked out, but it's not thenames of some innocent party.
It's not the name.
Epstein's name wasn't blackedout.
(20:48):
It was the names of thegovernment investigators asking
the questions.
Now, these are people that workfor the government.
Why are you blacking out theirnames?
Why are you blacking out theircontact information out of the
deposition?
This is a government agency.
This is insane.
This kind of why are they doingit?
(21:09):
I don't know, it doesn't makeany sense.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And so, but basically it's just this idea that
everything is secret.
Everything needs to be, yeah,protecting the minor.
Let's say you got somebody, alittle girl or something you say
(21:38):
Jane Doe, to protect their.
But these people are all adultsthat are bringing these charges
.
We should know their names.
They should not be anonymous.
The files, the records in thegrand jury should not be secret.
These are once the cases comeout.
These things should be public.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
And if I am on the fence, you know if I'm working
for a government agency or acorporation, or Beer Stearns,
you know when they were stillaround, or Chase, you know, and
I'm greedy, you know and I'mselfish and look and I'm on the
fence and nobody's supervising.
And look and I'm on the fenceand nobody's supervising me.
And I know nobody's reallywatching me or they're turning
(22:20):
the other way.
This really gives me the powerto come in and do this.
And if there's enough people,tom, that are willing to do this
, the good guys realize that theyou know that the people ahead
of them, their bosses or theirbosses' bosses, are in on the
take or in on the action, orthey don't know and they're
(22:40):
afraid to expose this.
You know it's not an easysystem to break down.
Once the deep state let's callit the deep state, you know I
mean layers of corruption comein.
It's not easy.
You know who really made thatclear.
You mentioned it in the articlewhen Dan Bongino, kash Patel,
pam Bondi, when they started tohim and Haw and turn the other
(23:02):
way and you see, wow,something's really going on here
.
I just read something from DanBongino.
He said this Tom, I'd like toget your take on this.
He said you know he promises adignified effort on the truth
going forward.
He said we can't run a republiclike this.
Dan Bongino says he goes afterinvestigating this and looking
(23:25):
into it, I'll never be the sameafter learning what I've learned
.
And his face was really likewhoa, I had no idea, right.
So he said on a social mediapost just last week that the
agency is conducting multipleinvestigations relating to
alleged public corruption andweaponization of government.
(23:45):
He said the director and I arecommitted to stamping out public
corruption and the politicalweaponization of both the law
enforcement and intelligenceoperations.
But you realize what they're upagainst, right?
This is tough.
This is tough stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
You know, dan Bongino was a secret service.
He was a New York City policeofficer and he was a secret
service agent.
He didn't get into all thisstuff.
I mean, this is you know,people, unless you've been
inside the intelligence network,you just have no concept of the
potential for corruption thatexists in there and that
(24:25):
everybody is going to be corruptif they can live in darkness.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Well, not everybody, but let's just say that.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
I don't know.
I've seen some very—.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Because if that's true, tom, well here, if the
point being, if you've given into darkness and you're living
that way already and you haveno—you don't bring light, let's
just call it what it is If youdon't have a faith in God and
there's nothing but just thisworld for you, then you can go
into it.
You're going to go into, youknow you're going to go into
(24:58):
dark places.
You're right, and you know, ifthere's no hope, no light.
Again, I get back to Paul inEphesians 6,.
You know, we're not fightingagainst flesh and blood, but the
powers and the principalities,the rulers of this world.
He calls them and he's talkingabout the demonic Tom.
So, from that standpoint, youknow, if you don't have a power
(25:21):
of good, if you don't have thepower of a light within you,
then, yeah, I think the defaultposition for human beings is sin
and death.
Let's face it.
You know this is biblical, youknow.
If you don't find a savior sinand death.
You're looking at a six foothole, tom, and you know people
say, hey, let's take what we can, let's take what we can while
(25:42):
we got the chance.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
But the other thing yeah, it's true that if you have
your Savior and if you focus onbeing faithful, that maybe you
might be able to overcome it.
But really, Christians werebuilt to be in community and
unless you have somebody holdingyou accountable, you're going
to fall.
I don't care who you are, Idon't care what your faith is,
(26:07):
If you're out there alone andnobody knows.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
I get your point now.
Okay, I see what you mean now,and so if you can, once you
operate.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah, even Jesus sent them out two by two, you know
right and and, uh, you know,billy graham was able to stay on
the right path because he hadpeople who held held him
accountable.
Yeah, no, no doubt about it.
But what's happening in ourgovernment is nobody's holding
them accountable.
There there's no accountabilityand and it's and it's getting
(26:35):
worse every year, and so thatthen these kind of cases look,
the Epstein case is probably the?
Um, the largest, longest childsex trafficking operation I've
ever seen, and it was organizedand people knew about it and
nothing was done about it yeah,but you know, I think about even
(26:57):
the church, you know even theCatholic church, when you
investigated the crimes in therelook at it, I mean even within
the church itself.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
You know we have these dark places.
So I just want to broaden thisout because when people wonder
what they can do, everybody theBonginos, the Kash Patels, the
Pam Bondys, trump, me, you,everybody has to do their part
wherever that part is.
And we got to do it.
Like you said, in community, wegot to.
You know, that's why we call itthe body.
(27:26):
The body is the church.
You know, we don't try to dothese things by ourselves, but
even that can be corrupted.
Bongino said this Tom, theleadership of this
administration and the work ofthe men and women of law
enforcement have now, since theTrump administration came in, he
said there's no doubt thecountry is safer.
Now what that means exactly?
(27:47):
He says this, he goes the FBIhas carried out more than 12,000
violent crime arrests andseized more than 3,000 pounds of
fentanyl, more than 136,000pounds of cocaine, 11,000 pounds
of meth and amphetamines,27,000 pounds of marijuana, more
than 21,900 immigrationenforcement-related arrests, all
(28:12):
since January.
You know, the scope of thisthing is amazing, tom, and
unless everybody starts to standup and say because I know
people are on the sidelines,right and they and they're just
armchair quarterbacking this,and I think your article, you
know, makes it clear this is abig, big, big problem and, at
the end of the day, how do yousolve those problems?
(28:33):
You know, every person has totake this on and decide that I
am going to do good, and it'snot easy.
It's not easy because thepowers are against you.
You're not going to make asmuch money, you're not going to
have as much control.
You know, if somebody'sdangling out sex, money, power
in front of somebody, and I'mmaking, you know, $70,000 a year
(28:56):
and I can make 10 times thatit's pretty enticing for people.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Well, let's put it this way the Iran-Contra affair
that was a blatant violation oflaw.
The people that were involvedin it, in engineering it, in
carrying it out, those peoplenone of them faced any
consequences whatsoever, and thepeople that wound up being
convicted were pardoned.
And even though it was a clearviolation of the law.
Now you can't allow that tohappen.
This is not the kind of thingthat but it does.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
And it does happen and the solution to that.
I know you're writing that inpart three.
But, as I start to really lookat this.
You know there'll be peoplesaying, well, they need to go
after this guy, and that's true,it's true.
But here I was just talking toa—I was doing what they call an
in-service in a school, aCatholic school for teachers,
(29:50):
right, and it's all womenteachers there.
And how many we start to talkabout, how many of the young
girls guys too, of course, butyoung girls have no protection
because they have no fathers inthe house either through divorce
, being born out of wedlock, etcetera, et cetera.
The young boys, oh, that theydon't have fathers.
(30:12):
And so you know, if you havesex on your mind versus you know
caring about and of course, allyoung guys have sex on their
mind.
They don't even understand whatthat is.
But if you're going to usesomebody as an object instead of
just seeing the beauty of oursexuality, they go after those
girls that don't have fathers.
They know that they're easier,right?
(30:34):
Then another teacher said to meshe goes, jack, I saw this young
guy caught him on his phoneshowing another boy pornography.
So I caught him right in theact of having it on his phone.
I came up right behind him, heputs it in his pocket and I go.
You know you're going to haveto go down to the principal with
me and he goes.
You know what?
I don't care, my dad's into'sinto pornography.
(30:55):
He watches pornography.
So my point being, this time,either we don't have parents
that that, in general, that are,uh, you know, instilling these
morals and values down to eachone of us, or they're implicit,
you know, or you know they're inon the action already, right?
Oh?
So what kind of you know?
(31:16):
Who are we to judge?
Now, right, you know, all thesepeople like cash, patel and
bongino are trying, all thesedifferent people are trying, but
they're up against a huge arrayof people that maybe have no
idea and again I'm generalizinghere, right, yeah of really how
to stand up against all of theevil that they're facing.
(31:36):
These are tough tasks.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Well, first of all, you got to break it down into a
very simple thing.
You have to have some system ofholding people accountable
really, and the best way to holdpeople accountable is to shed
light on what's going on.
So there's got to be the leastamount of secrecy that there is.
(31:59):
You know, there's a murder of aCatholic what's his name?
Frank Pellegrini.
That happened and I think itwas 1984, that I've been
investigating.
I can't remember the exact dateof his murder, but he was kind
of a key figure in some of thesex issues in the Catholic
(32:21):
Church back in the 80s andseveral different agencies have
investigated the murder.
But when we try to getinformation about those cases,
since the case is not solved,since the crime isn't solved,
the police say well, it's anopen case, so we can't give you
any information.
There's all kinds of cases likethat.
(32:44):
There's cases that haven't anycase that hasn't been solved.
They can say, well, you can'thave it because it's under
investigation, so it's allsecret and it's not subject to
review.
Well, this allows agencies tobe incompetent.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Is there a solution to that, though?
I mean, there are times, right,tom?
I would suspect that Well ifthey feel like it?
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Yeah, if they feel like it, they'll give it to you.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
You know, that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It's going to be very frustrating.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Okay, when he was indicted, he was indicted for
crimes that occurred between2002 and 2005, which was the
(33:45):
same period of time that he hadbeen convicted back in 2007.
When he was convicted in 2007,there was a non-prosecution
agreement that was signed thathe signed and then all these
other people signed saying thatnothing that happened before
this time can you be charged,nobody that you've been involved
with and nothing that you'vedone that happened before this
(34:07):
time.
You can be charged withanything again.
And so now he was charged byand had to be approved approved
by Bill Barr, who was theattorney general at the time.
He was charged with thesecrimes that occurred between
2002 and 2005, which was theexact period.
There were different crimesthan what he was charged with in
2007, but it was the exactperiod of time that the
(34:30):
non-prosecution agreementcovered.
Well, the Southern District ofNew York said well, that was a
different district, so itdoesn't apply to us.
I contend that he could havefought that case and won because
he had a non-prosecutionagreement, because it was with
the US government.
Now, meanwhile, we know thatthere's all these other massive
(34:52):
crimes that have occurred since2007 that they should have been
aware of and they didn't evenbring any charges against them.
So they charge them for allthese earlier crimes and Bill
Barr had to be approving of it.
I contend that this wasintentional, that this was
intentionally.
They were intentionallythrowing the case.
(35:13):
They were trying to make itlook like they were
intentionally throwing the case.
They were trying to make itlook like they were doing
something and they said oh, lookat this, Technicality gets off
on it.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
So I mean, what's behind?
Again, you know I don't want toget in the weeds here too much
more, but I mean, all of theseissues that we're talking about,
does it just become too manypeople in the government will be
exposed?
Is that what they're coveringup?
Look, we know again.
We talked about it already.
This is a big network ofcorruption.
But when they do that, arethere specific when you say,
okay, we've got intelligencesecrets, we can't expose this
(35:49):
stuff.
Why can't we shed light on itnow, tom, looking back, this is
going back 20 years now.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Well, because we have an illusion of transparency.
We have an illusion of being ina country that respects the
will of the people, and I thinkwe have people in government
that don't want to be heldaccountable to the people or to
be held accountable for anythingthat they want to do, what they
want to do, without anyoversight.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
So I think that's really what they're protecting
is their own power.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, Well, that's, I mean that's the theory of the
deep state, right.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
You know we're going to stay in power.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
We saw this with Trump.
They're investigating theRussian collusion.
You can't make this stuff up.
I mean, this is going rightinto everybody, from the
president, you know, from Obama,the Clintons, you know, etc.
And it's amazing, you know,when they're in power, what
they'll do when we start tothink about, you know, the rich
(36:42):
versus the poor.
There's a double-tiered justicesystem there, but it goes after
the rich too.
If you don't kowtow to what youjust said, right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I don't really know all the.
I don't have all the answerswith this Epstein case, but it
really is a case study thatshould be examined very
thoroughly because we this is.
Epstein was a fascinating guy,I mean, he was apparently.
He was very likable because hehad a lot of friends and he was
(37:19):
very sociable.
He got along with a lot ofpeople.
He had a lot of differentinterests, he went to many
parties.
I don't know what caused thechange when he became
romantically involved withGhislaine Maxwell.
I don't know why they shiftedinto using using girls in order
(37:41):
to and you know, but it'sbasically arms deals and stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
You make clear this was over already.
Right, this kind of stuff wasover already.
So that's almost like part twoof his his life, you know, when
he gets involved in it, two ofhis life.
You know, when he gets involvedin it, you have somebody
brilliant.
You know, as we start to winddown here, tom, you have
somebody brilliant, likable,interested in a lot of different
things, and instead of again,instead of doing good, right,
(38:07):
I'm going to use that just formy own greed.
However, that works, and you'regoing to be caught down, tom.
We get caught into these things.
We know each person I know hasbeen gone down some hole that
they shouldn't have gone down intheir life right Some sin.
So we know from experience.
I was just talking to somebodyabout the famous exorcist,
(38:31):
father Gabriel Amorth from Rome.
He's passed away now, but itwas an amazing man and he talked
about this experience.
You know that experience oflife.
You have to remember thosethings because he said, each one
of us can fall down into that.
And, like John Paul said, whatcan I do?
I'm going to get frustrated.
No, don't get frustrated.
You just have to know thatthese battles are taking place
(38:53):
on the individual human heart.
And my point with somebody likeJeffrey Epstein, he could have
did so good.
So much good with his life, tom,and still been a
multimillionaire, you know,still been very rich and done
good things, and it's so sadwhen you see this and now he's
gone things and it's so sad whenyou see this and now he's gone.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
When you look at his early career, though, when he
was doing the work with theBritish and their arms deal with
Saudi Arabia and theIran-Contra deal, he was working
for the government.
I mean, he was really doingthat.
He wasn't doing things thatwere particularly wrong.
It certainly wasn't doinganything illegal.
From the standpoint of hisposition, he didn't see it as
(39:35):
being illegal because he's thegovernment's involved in it.
How could you consider it to beillegal?
And he was making a lot ofmoney.
He worked with a lot ofdifferent people and then, when
he went with Towers Financialand got involved in that whole
deal, that's when he startedreally getting into questionable
areas, because more money, youknow you want more money.
(39:55):
More money you got, you getmore money you want, and so
that's the kind of thing that hegot into, and he started going
downhill from there.
But he was not involved in anykind of trafficking, of human
trafficking certainly notinvolved with children and when
he started with GhislaineMaxwell it started as kind of a
(40:16):
small thing.
It was just local girls thatthey were dealing with and they
were trying to bring into theoperation, but then it grew into
this.
It met $1.5 billion in humantrafficking.
This is how can you, how canthis happen?
One person, one organizationyeah.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
One organization is involved in this, and that
wasn't like you make explicit inthe article, that wasn't the
profit from it.
That's just what he wasspending.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
That's what he was spending, that's what's he
making off of this.
And so this is a massiveoperation, doing regular
business kind of things andmaking a lot of money, because
he was good at it to becomingthis really monstrously evil
kind of person and traffickingin girls, and it's like so what
(41:04):
happened?
How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Well, you know, in general, without the specifics
on this case, you know you lookat the guys all over the world
that have gotten into this.
Take somebody like Stalin.
When Stalin was a young guy, hewas in the seminary to be a
priest.
When you start slowly, whathappens to all of us?
I have friends of mine thatI've seen go down these holes
(41:28):
where they get to my age now andthey almost can't find
themselves anymore.
And it's small steps, tom, Itake these small steps.
I get involved in this, this,this, this, this, and pretty
soon you know Satan is a smartdude man.
You know, I mean, you know youthink you're so smart you're
setting up this big web of money.
(41:48):
Well, there's another web that'sgot you wrapped up you know,
and so many of these people inyour article have died now.
They met their maker.
You know, in Catholic theology,tom, the last things, we call
it the four key realitiesconcerning the end of an
individual's life and the end ofthe world, and that's death,
(42:08):
judgment, heaven and hell Verywell known, right, and we're all
going to be there, my friend.
And at the end of the day, allthat money Christ talks about it
so often.
He says what are you going todo with all that money and all
those treasures?
He said, you know you can haveall that.
What good have you done ifyou've got all these treasures
and you've lost your eternalsoul?
(42:29):
And that's what we do.
And so it still becomes thisbattle between good and evil.
And for all of our listeners,you know, just make sure that
your heart's in the right spot.
You know that you're passingthese virtues and stuff down to
our kids.
Stay married, as hard as thatcould be with some people, you
know, when you get divorced andthese families break up.
(42:50):
I see these kids, tom, becausewe have an apostle that we call
it for young people, and youngpeople even in high school.
You see this brokenness in thisculture today, when these young
people don't have any moraltruths anymore and they're
getting blown around by thespirit of the age.
Now just think if they are allgoing into government later on,
(43:11):
or whatever, you know whatever.
Are they going to bring goodinto the world?
Even if they want to?
They don't understand what thatgood is and, again, they don't
have the power to do good, evenif they want to right.
They're going to be taken intothese circumstances.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Well, we really have to start bringing people up in a
virtuous way again, and so wehave to return to some of the
classical education that we usedto get, because I'll tell you
that the people that are goinginto government right now are
people that seem very willing totake shortcuts to get to where
they want, and those shortcutslead to some pretty terrible
(43:50):
places?
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, and even the simple-minded ones, you know,
not the brilliant ones thesimple-minded ones.
They get caught at theirbureaucrats and they want their
little power and they want tomake sure they got their little
jobs and that you know they'reimportant.
And so I know this in business,when I was just building small
businesses up, some bureaucratcan you know, all I need is
(44:13):
their signature in order to geta building done or in order to
remodel something or whatever itwas, and they could come in and
they just him haul around andyou know, tom, they want you to
give them something.
I lost whole contracts, goodcontracts for me, just because I
wouldn't grease some guy's palm.
And you look back at it and yougo, man, my life could have
(44:35):
been so much easier if I wouldhave just paid this guy five
grand or eight or whatever itwas.
You know, sometimes thereweren't huge amounts of money
and because I stood on someprinciple, you know you lose it.
You lose it.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
I mean it's been.
Chicago was praised years agoabout having the best building
code in the country or something.
No, they had the building codelike that so they could extract
bribes out of people.
It's just so ridiculous.
It's happening all over andit's happening today at all
levels, tom.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
So each one of us are fighting these battles.
So the battle of the Bonginoand Kash Patel.
It's good to see good peopleand I just think you know and
good leadership is going to helpbecause other people will come
up.
But, man, this is a big battle.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
This is really a big battle.
It's a huge problem.
It's not something that theycan't just say.
Here are the files, we'reopening them up.
The government needs to do someserious investigation of this.
We need another churchcommittee is what we need.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
So yeah, who put that church committee together in
the beginning?
Do you know a little?
We only got a minute left but.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
It was, I don't know, Senator Church or
Representative Church orsomething, but it was a select
committee.
It had people from both theHouse and the Senate that looked
into it, that investigated theintelligence community, and they
got a lot of information.
But I'm not sure that we haveenough of a nonpartisan or a
cooperative arrangement inCongress today to be able to
(46:05):
pull that off.
It's just they were socontentious.
You got the Republicans versusthe, the democrats.
It's like you need.
You need people that worktogether, um, toward finding out
what happened and making thingsright, and I don't know that
we've got people on both sidesof the aisle willing to do that
well, here, here's, here's how Iwant to add into it.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
I'll straighten them up tom, here's how I'm going to
end this thing.
This is matthew, chapter 7,verse 13 the narrow gate.
Huh, if this doesn't sum thisthing up, enter by the narrow
gate, for the gate is wide andthe way is easy.
That leads to destruction, andthose who enter it are many, for
(46:46):
the gate is narrow and the wayis hard.
That leads to life, and thosewho find it are few.
So this is Jesus going back,you know, over 2,000 years ago,
and says hey, dude, go throughthe narrow gate.
It's not going to be easy, andthose who find it are few, and
the gate is wide and the way iseasy.
(47:06):
That leads to your destruction,and those who enter that gate
are many.
And it's no different todaythan it was in Jesus' time.
Tom, you know our job is to getourselves and our families to
heaven and then take it out inthe world and do whatever good
we can, and that's our job.
And so I sum it up like that,because you shouldn't get
(47:29):
depressed about this thing.
You know, make sure that you'rereceiving the light and you're
doing your part.
And God, you know, let God beGod, because you know we're
facing something that's beyondjust Trump can do it or Bongino
can do it.
Kash Patel, no, don't wait forthem.
I hope they do their job and Ihope I do my job too.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
We have to have a revival of the church.
We also need to have a revivalof a sense of public service.
Yes, yes, people need to lookat working for government as a
service and that they need towalk in there and go into that
(48:13):
position, trying to do the bestthey can as a patriotic endeavor
, rather than just making money.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Well, and that's what gets back to that classic
education that you're talkingabout, because these kids are
not taught that, they're nottaught to be patriots, they're
not taught to be servants.
Right, it's all about DEI andtaking, taking, taking.
So we're training these kidsfor that.
So, hey, hey, brother, you'reright, we got to get back to
that too.
So, god bless you.
When's article three going tobe ready?
Speaker 1 (48:45):
I don't know It'll be within two weeks.
I don't think it'll be as long.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
There's a lot going on there, hey Tom, thank you so
much.
Thanks everyone.
Thanks for joining us today.
We'll talk to you again soon.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Bye-bye.
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