February 19, 2025 • 29 mins
Frank Lo Greco discusses the systemic issues within the child protection system in Canada, highlighting a lack of accountability and the oppressive nature of current practices. Drawing from his extensive experience in social work and child welfare, Frank shares how a tragic event shifted his focus toward advocacy and reform. He emphasizes the need for changes in legislation and the importance of understanding the complexities faced by children and youth in care. The conversation delves into personal stories, including those of foster parents and Indigenous individuals, which showcase the ongoing struggles within the system. Frank and his wife co-authored a book titled "Behind the Doors," aiming to shed light on these challenges and inspire meaningful change.
Takeaways:
- Frank Lo Greco emphasizes the importance of taking action on your dreams as a guiding principle.
- The child protection system in Canada faces significant accountability issues that need addressing.
- Personal experiences and tragedies can motivate professionals to advocate for systemic change.
- Frank's father, an immigrant, served as a key mentor throughout his life and career.
- Legislative changes are crucial to better protect children and improve foster care systems.
- The relationship dynamics between children in care and social workers can heavily influence outcomes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:59):
My guest today is Frank Logrecco.
He transitioned into the fieldof social work in 1996 following
a successful career in law security.
Throughout his professionaljourney, he has held various roles
within the child protectionsector including positions of fostering,
programming, programmanagement and the ownership and
operation of a private agencyin Ontario.
(01:21):
However, a tragic accident ledto tragic event led to a change in
his professional focus.
Currently, Frank is involvedin the operation of a complex needs
home for individual adults aswell as a home care and advocacy
group.
Additionally, he is owner oflegreco, an associate's counseling
and hypnosis office.
Frank, along with his wifeKaren, co authored a book addressing
(01:44):
the legislative regulatoryaspects of child welfare of the child
welfare system.
Frank holds diploma in SocialWork Service.
The social work are bsw, msw,NLP and hypnosis.
Welcome Frank to the podcast.
Welcome Frank.
Welcome to the podcast.
How you doing today, my friend?
I'm doing amazing.
(02:05):
Thank you for having me onyour show.
Greatly appreciate it.
Good to have you on.
So I'm going to ask you myfavorite question I ask all my guests.
You cannot escape this question.
And that is what is the bestpiece of advice you've ever received?
The best piece of advice, thebest piece of advice ever received
was from my father alwayssaid, follow your dreams and if you
(02:27):
don't put them to action,they're only dreams.
Wow.
I like that.
So that's one laid out in your life.
Wow.
Throughout my whole life, I'vealways followed my dreams.
I chased what I wanted, wasresilient and made things happen,
(02:51):
but by the grace of God, you know.
So that's one thing that'salways resonated with me with that.
That's great.
So I always like to ask myguest this question as well.
I looked at your bio.
You have had a quite a journeyin your life and I'm curious along
your path, who are some peoplethat served as guides for you mentors
(03:15):
along the way in your journey?
The biggest mentor I ever hadin my life was my dad was an immigrant
in Canada, came here at ayoung age with nothing and was able
to accomplish and besuccessful in his life by raising
his family and providing forhis family.
(03:37):
So he was always my biggest mentor.
Just watching him strugglethrough, through the 70s, right through
until, you know, the 90s wherethere was challenges and obstacles
for a lot of, a lot ofimmigrants that migrated to Canada.
So he was definitely a hugementor to me in raising my own family
(04:04):
and giving back to my family.
I love that.
So you, you and your wifewrote a Book and it's called behind
the Doors.
Tell us a bit about what inspired.
You to write that book.
So the book, though we wrotethe book after my wife and I both
having a long stint in thechild protection system from, you
(04:29):
know, having different being,having worked in different capacities,
and then a tragic incident, westarted to to take a step back and
reevaluate the system, thesystem in a whole.
And we quickly recognize thatalthough the system, we have all
(04:51):
progressed, the system has hasn't.
We still noted that the systemcarries an oppressive stance, a power
and control institution.
And because of that, we wantto look at the system as a whole
and even question why hasn'tthe system changed?
(05:12):
Why hasn't legislation'sregulations changed and why does
the system create an illusionof change?
And that was one of the thingsthat we looked at when writing this
book and talking toprofessionals advocates office.
So that was the biggestmotivator there.
(05:35):
How do we make those changes?
So talk about the childprotective system because you're
talking about from theCanadian perspective.
I know ours is probably aboutas dysfunctional as yours, but describe
some of the challenges thatchildren are facing in Canada.
I think the major challengesthat that is imposed is accountability.
(06:05):
We look at a systematic issuesof lack of accountability.
I think what happens is likeobviously in America that there are
so many offices and so many.
And what we see is so manypersonalities and different education
(06:26):
backgrounds that we seedifferent themes of theories that
everybody practices.
But I think the biggest is thepower of control.
It's not a working relationship.
It's more of a power andcontrol relationship.
And then we've shifted too.
We've shifted to where thechildren and youth are so empowered
(06:51):
but not accountable.
And I think that's some of thethings that are stunningly major
issues within our system.
So can you share a story fromyour book that kind of highlights
what you're describing now,the struggles and the triumphs within
(07:12):
the system?
Well, one of the stories arethat we talk to some former foster
parents when writing this bookand what we've noticed is that the
shift hasn't shifted from 20years ago.
Foster parents are held atthis high level of, you know, providing,
(07:38):
being, providing children andyouth with a home, parenting consequences.
They need to have weardifferent hats from a doctor to a
social worker to psychiatrist,a psychologist, without having the
(07:59):
proper training or education.
So what we've seen is a systemthat allows these kids with mental
health issues going into ahome with, you know, they believe
that training within one ortwo days provides an appropriate
amount of training to address issues.
(08:23):
That makes sense.
I just was looking at a storyrecently here in America.
Someone was talking about howdo we kind of help fix our broken
foster care system?
And they said part of theproblem is our government has the
technology to put everythingin computers so that there's.
It's easily cross referencedand there's better accountability.
(08:44):
The problem is most of ourrecords are still handwritten, so
there's just these stacks andstacks of folders.
Would, you know, maybe kidswho at risk were in a bad situation,
but no one discovers itbecause no one's going through all
the mountains of paperwork toidentify when there's a problem in
the system or a problem with aparticular parent or protecting a
(09:06):
child.
What are your thoughts aboutjust the outdatedness of our system?
I.
I agree.
I agree.
I think we have the sameprinciple here.
Everything is written out andthen it gets transferred into a computer.
But I think things get left out.
(09:26):
I think the documents that arewritten are written from somebody's
lens and who's policing.
Who's policing the workers?
Right.
And I think that's the biggest issue.
Right.
It's all, It's.
It's all subjective notes.
(09:48):
And if you have a goodrelationship with somebody, your
notes will be written verydifferently than another youth that
you don't have a goodrelationship with.
So how accurate are these notes?
Right.
I know here in America,sometimes the goal of our foster
care system is to reunite kidswith families as quickly as possible.
(10:14):
I've had several guests on mypodcast talk about the foster care
system here.
And what they said is it'sreally not designed to find a suitable.
It's supposed to be finding asuitable relative to put the kids
with as soon as possible, butwe don't do that.
There's more money to be madeby keeping kids in the system versus
(10:35):
reuniting with family members.
Have you discovered some ofthat struggle in your area as well?
We have.
We have.
So when we.
When we look at the systemitself, there is such a huge financial
benefit to it that it is inthe best interest of children's aid
(10:57):
society to keep children andyouth in the system because of the
revenue it generates.
Let's look at this way.
If we have an organizationthat has, say, 20 kids in there,
the ministry is paying roughlywith those 20 kids, and I'm not very
(11:20):
good at math, but say $130 aday to maybe $180, and that organization
is roughly profiting per monthquite a bit of dollars, and they
(11:43):
pay their expenses.
There's a huge profit that canbe brought back to the families of
these children that are havingmental health issues, have been disruptive
in the community to supportthem in health at a lower cost.
And this is not being done why?
(12:10):
And since, since that we'veevolved tremendously, bring that
money back into the families,you know, help them internally and
let's cut out the the middle people.
(12:30):
I'm curious, as I look at yourbackground, you said that that a
tragic event led you to changeyour professional focus.
Tell us a little bit aboutwhat led you to this dispassionate
you have for the childprotective system.
(12:51):
It happened so quick.
We were a striving agency.
We started to help children, youth.
We got creative.
We were always giving theyouths things that they needed and
wanted to make us differentfrom other agencies.
(13:15):
We spent thousands andthousands of dollars in helping,
you know, children and youthfrom getting them involved in major
recreational activities in asecond from football to baseball
to hockey, equipment, bikes.
(13:36):
Because if we were had to gothrough the channels of the societies,
we would always need to put inthe paperwork.
And that was a lengthy process.
So we continue to help theseindividuals grow and foster growth
through different activities.
A few years ago we received anintake package which is basically
(14:04):
a package for admissions.
And we decided that he was anappropriate fit.
But I guess this individualwas more troubled than those reports
let on.
And because of that he endedup murdering another youth.
(14:24):
Wow.
In the home fifth estate gotera this and there was a huge controversy
investigation from Bob McEwenwho was one of the investigator reporters.
(14:45):
Unfortunately, when it comesto legal issues you're always directed
not to speak, not to haveconversation until these legal proceedings
are done with.
And unfortunately we never hadour opportunity to speak to Bob McEwen.
Although I have major emailsback and forth later on saying hey,
(15:07):
let's chat.
You know what you said is inaccurate.
What you're deeming to aninvestigative call self investigative
journalist, you're notproviding the proper context and
it's very narrow minded context.
So this is where it led me tothis path of pursuing advocacy and
(15:30):
helping families and childrenand youth in care to help support
them because they don't havethose supports.
You know, from the Ombudsman'soffice to the advocate's office,
it's still a government agency.
It's not a hands off agencysupporting these individuals.
(15:52):
So there's a lot of hoops thatyou need to sort of jump to get the
supports you need.
Sure.
As you think about the storiesin the book, I'm sure People are
curious.
How did you gather thosestories and is there a particular
story that was particularlymoving to you from the book?
(16:14):
Yeah, it was speaking to someof the families.
There was a lot of storiesthat were very molding to me and
to my wife and I thinkparticularly was the indigenous women
that we spoke to how things asa foster parent, as a person who
(16:38):
was sexually assaulted and waspart of the residential.
She indicated to me that thesepractices still go on.
And although that through agovernment lens indigenous population
(17:00):
has come forward.
Her as an indigenous woman wasalways belittled as a foster parent,
she was provided the proper supports.
She was accused of thingswhich at certain times she was, you
(17:25):
know, where she.
She said that she had enoughand she became explosive because
she wasn't.
She was always looked at as anindividual that that required supports
herself that was strugglingwith mental health.
So it was pretty interesting to.
To get her side of the story.
(17:50):
I know I've done severalpodcasts on this topic.
I know some of the things thathave come out from my interviews
with people who are in thefoster care system is there are several
challenging aspects of it herein America and it's probably the
same in Canada.
At 18, you age out of thesystem and if you haven't adopted
or found a place to go at 18,you just can't kicked out of the
(18:12):
foster care system when you'reoff on your own.
I've also discovered thateducation, because you're always
moving around is sporadic at best.
And a lot of kids who are inthe program don't have a good solid
education background becausethey keep moving so much.
And you talk about there's alot of trouble screening foster care
(18:34):
parents to make sure that theythe homes you're putting kids in
are safe and, and not predatory.
What as you reveal kind of allthe things that are you're dealing
with and you've discovered.
What do you hope people takeaway from reading your book?
What I truly hope that peopletake away from from the book when
(18:57):
dealing with professionals isis that as a professional you should
be able to challenge peoplepolicies, regulations, be able to
challenge people and what yourbeliefs are.
And that's the biggest thingthat I hope that I that people take
away from this book sayingthat, you know, we've evolved 20
(19:19):
years to today, but the systemhasn't changed from the past.
And in order to get and it's very.
See when we're dealing withgovernment, it's always easy to create
an illusion.
It's, you know, they, they puton paper this beautiful black and
(19:41):
white scripture legislation rules.
But when you're dealing with apopulation and people humanistically,
it's impossible.
And I think that's the biggesttake from this.
Know your.
It's for people to know theindividuals that they're working
(20:04):
with and the struggles.
You're welcoming a youth intoyour house, know who they really
are.
You're reading somebody else'sreport and it's very dangerous.
Here's, here's critical onefor you is our legislation says that
(20:26):
foster homes could have fourindividuals in a home with different
types.
Not common.
When you're dealing with.
You're.
You're bringing home fourdifferent individuals into your home.
You have a shift indemographics, you have a shift in
personality, you have a shiftin mental health issues.
(20:53):
Why would the legislation notbe changed to have no more than one
or two people in thathousehold to safeguard and to avoid
any future incidences?
It doesn't make sense.
And this is something thatfoster parents or professionals need
(21:15):
to quickly look at, evenincluding our Ministry of Social
Services.
Why hasn't attacked and alegislation that is so easy to change
have not been changed.
Why would you jeopardize otherchildren and youth to have more than
four people kids or youth in ahome where awols occur, sexual assaults
(21:41):
occur, assaults occur.
And I don't know aboutAmerica, but in Canada, a lot of
our foster parents are women,our mothers.
So you don't have a maledominant figure in, in that household
because he's either workingfull time or not in the picture.
(22:06):
Right.
You know, it's a breedingground for disaster.
Oh, it is.
Especially when you're talkingabout kids that have so a lot of
trauma in.
Their life and you're nowdon't have.
The support to make sure thatthey're safe, you're safe.
And the kids that your other kids.
In the house are also safe.
(22:26):
Yep.
So.
And we've seen this time andtime again.
Right.
Here's an interesting thing.
And we go back to, you know,the death of this youth in our organization.
And we placed a kid in ourorganization that had major mental
(22:47):
health issues.
We talk so critically aboutinstitutions, but sometimes those
institutions are needed.
This very individual that wasin our home was in custody and, and
while in an institution wherehe needed supervision, he was able
(23:09):
to.
To, to.
To seriously hurt anotheryouth and cause brain damage where
he needed emergency surgery.
Wow.
Why does the government do this?
Why does.
Does the child protectionsystem do this?
And that's the biggest question.
So if I put you in charge ofthe system for A day.
(23:33):
What are, what are immediatechanges you would make to the system
to improve it?
I would revamp the wholelegislation system.
I would reduce the amount ofkids in a home and group homes.
I would ensure that somebodyis actually policing the children's
(23:54):
aid society.
I would, instead of having ahuge umbrella of ministry offices,
I would quickly revamp it toone centralized place including child
protection.
So that means that there wouldbe one intake department for children's
(24:18):
aid society that filterschildren out to the society to a
different Jonesy society.
And there's accountability here.
That's what I would do.
The what people don'tunderstand is no one's overseeing
the child protection system.
(24:39):
There is no at arm's lengthsystem to review other children's
day societies.
And I think that's the biggest challenge.
I'm curious, Frank, whatfeedback have you received so far
from your book?
(25:00):
I received some positivefeedback from for my book.
It's opened a lot of eyes.
It's written in.
This is my first book my wifeand I ever wrote.
We're looking at doing a documentary.
The feedback that we receivedwas that individuals weren't aware
(25:22):
of what was going on.
They're very blind to hear oneside and not a full spectrum of different
professionals from a different lens.
And that was the biggest thing.
So you have any futureprojects along the same lines in
(25:44):
the future?
Yeah.
So we were looking at doing a documentary.
We were in the process ofwriting a script and doing a documentary
of this book that highlightsdifferent types of chain of events
from our initial start infostering to where we are today and
(26:06):
including all the trials andtribulations of the child welfare
system.
So Frank, I love to ask myguest this question as well.
What do you want your legacyto be?
Wow.
What would I want My legacy?
I want my legacy to be.
(26:29):
I'd like my legacy to be astrong advocate of people that are
marginalized and leave thatbehind to make the proper changes,
things that are realistic for people.
I think that is the biggest legacy.
(26:49):
I want to leave this worldbetter than what it is today.
That's awesome.
I love to give my audience,especially topics like this, some
action items.
So if you were telling theaudience things that they can do
in their area to help protect,to help improve the child protective
system, what are somesuggestions that the audience can
(27:10):
do can involve them to make adifference in their community?
Reach out to your governor,your senate, reach out to our municipal
politicians here.
Provincial government here inCanada is the biggest thing.
People need to startchallenging the narratives.
People need to start lookingat things with different lenses.
(27:35):
I think people today havegrown because of the Internet, but
they're afraid to speak.
We have that, you know,individuals feel they have to be
censored if something doesn't.
You know, one thing that I'vealways learned, if your gut says
(27:55):
something's not right,question it.
And I think it's important forpeople to question things, question
professionals in power.
And you see it happening here.
We, it's funny, in the lastfew years I've been watching out
in the states, these auditorsthat audit the police and you know,
(28:19):
that trend sort of has startedcoming here of, you know, auditing
the police and reviewing thepolice and things, making sure that
their rights don't getinfringed and, and people need to
start challenging thenarratives of the child protection
system, the policies, thelegislation that don't make sense.
(28:42):
Right.
And I think it's critical thatpeople do that.
So, Frank, where can peoplefind your book behind the doors and
connect with you on social media?
So people could purchase abook on outskirts, individuals could
purchase the book on Amazon.
(29:03):
We do have, we will be goinginto Indigo in the next two months.
So Indigo will be carrying ourbook as of March.
So there's a.
So those are the places thatthe general public could pick up
those books.
Well, Frank, thanks so muchfor kind of pulling the veil back
(29:25):
for us to kind of think aboutsomething to put on our hearts and
our minds and in our prayersto find a way to protect these vulnerable,
delicate children who are sovaluable to us into our future.
So thank you for what you doand for the advocacy and the eyes
opening opportunities you'vegiven us to think about how we can
come alongside in the systemsthat are, that are broken.
(29:46):
And help fix those systems.
Well, thank you for having meon your, your podcast.
I'm greatly appreciate it.
Thank you so much and I lookforward to speaking to you again.
Definitely, Frank.
My guest today is Frank Logrecco.
He transitioned into the fieldof social work in 1996 following
a successful career in law security.
Throughout his professionaljourney, he has held various roles
within the child protectionsector including positions of fostering,
programming, programmanagement and the ownership and
operation of a private agencyin Ontario.
(01:21):
However, a tragic accident ledto tragic event led to a change in
his professional focus.
Currently, Frank is involvedin the operation of a complex needs
home for individual adults aswell as a home care and advocacy
group.
Additionally, he is owner oflegreco, an associate's counseling
and hypnosis office.
Frank, along with his wifeKaren, co authored a book addressing
(01:44):
the legislative regulatoryaspects of child welfare of the child
welfare system.
Frank holds diploma in SocialWork Service.
The social work are bsw, msw,NLP and hypnosis.
Welcome Frank to the podcast.
Welcome Frank.
Welcome to the podcast.
How you doing today, my friend?
I'm doing amazing.
(02:05):
Thank you for having me onyour show.
Greatly appreciate it.
Good to have you on.
So I'm going to ask you myfavorite question I ask all my guests.
You cannot escape this question.
And that is what is the bestpiece of advice you've ever received?
The best piece of advice, thebest piece of advice ever received
was from my father alwayssaid, follow your dreams and if you
(02:27):
don't put them to action,they're only dreams.
Wow.
I like that.
So that's one laid out in your life.
Wow.
Throughout my whole life, I'vealways followed my dreams.
I chased what I wanted, wasresilient and made things happen,
(02:51):
but by the grace of God, you know.
So that's one thing that'salways resonated with me with that.
That's great.
So I always like to ask myguest this question as well.
I looked at your bio.
You have had a quite a journeyin your life and I'm curious along
your path, who are some peoplethat served as guides for you mentors
(03:15):
along the way in your journey?
The biggest mentor I ever hadin my life was my dad was an immigrant
in Canada, came here at ayoung age with nothing and was able
to accomplish and besuccessful in his life by raising
his family and providing forhis family.
(03:37):
So he was always my biggest mentor.
Just watching him strugglethrough, through the 70s, right through
until, you know, the 90s wherethere was challenges and obstacles
for a lot of, a lot ofimmigrants that migrated to Canada.
So he was definitely a hugementor to me in raising my own family
(04:04):
and giving back to my family.
I love that.
So you, you and your wifewrote a Book and it's called behind
the Doors.
Tell us a bit about what inspired.
You to write that book.
So the book, though we wrotethe book after my wife and I both
having a long stint in thechild protection system from, you
(04:29):
know, having different being,having worked in different capacities,
and then a tragic incident, westarted to to take a step back and
reevaluate the system, thesystem in a whole.
And we quickly recognize thatalthough the system, we have all
(04:51):
progressed, the system has hasn't.
We still noted that the systemcarries an oppressive stance, a power
and control institution.
And because of that, we wantto look at the system as a whole
and even question why hasn'tthe system changed?
(05:12):
Why hasn't legislation'sregulations changed and why does
the system create an illusionof change?
And that was one of the thingsthat we looked at when writing this
book and talking toprofessionals advocates office.
So that was the biggestmotivator there.
(05:35):
How do we make those changes?
So talk about the childprotective system because you're
talking about from theCanadian perspective.
I know ours is probably aboutas dysfunctional as yours, but describe
some of the challenges thatchildren are facing in Canada.
I think the major challengesthat that is imposed is accountability.
(06:05):
We look at a systematic issuesof lack of accountability.
I think what happens is likeobviously in America that there are
so many offices and so many.
And what we see is so manypersonalities and different education
(06:26):
backgrounds that we seedifferent themes of theories that
everybody practices.
But I think the biggest is thepower of control.
It's not a working relationship.
It's more of a power andcontrol relationship.
And then we've shifted too.
We've shifted to where thechildren and youth are so empowered
(06:51):
but not accountable.
And I think that's some of thethings that are stunningly major
issues within our system.
So can you share a story fromyour book that kind of highlights
what you're describing now,the struggles and the triumphs within
(07:12):
the system?
Well, one of the stories arethat we talk to some former foster
parents when writing this bookand what we've noticed is that the
shift hasn't shifted from 20years ago.
Foster parents are held atthis high level of, you know, providing,
(07:38):
being, providing children andyouth with a home, parenting consequences.
They need to have weardifferent hats from a doctor to a
social worker to psychiatrist,a psychologist, without having the
(07:59):
proper training or education.
So what we've seen is a systemthat allows these kids with mental
health issues going into ahome with, you know, they believe
that training within one ortwo days provides an appropriate
amount of training to address issues.
(08:23):
That makes sense.
I just was looking at a storyrecently here in America.
Someone was talking about howdo we kind of help fix our broken
foster care system?
And they said part of theproblem is our government has the
technology to put everythingin computers so that there's.
It's easily cross referencedand there's better accountability.
(08:44):
The problem is most of ourrecords are still handwritten, so
there's just these stacks andstacks of folders.
Would, you know, maybe kidswho at risk were in a bad situation,
but no one discovers itbecause no one's going through all
the mountains of paperwork toidentify when there's a problem in
the system or a problem with aparticular parent or protecting a
(09:06):
child.
What are your thoughts aboutjust the outdatedness of our system?
I.
I agree.
I agree.
I think we have the sameprinciple here.
Everything is written out andthen it gets transferred into a computer.
But I think things get left out.
(09:26):
I think the documents that arewritten are written from somebody's
lens and who's policing.
Who's policing the workers?
Right.
And I think that's the biggest issue.
Right.
It's all, It's.
It's all subjective notes.
(09:48):
And if you have a goodrelationship with somebody, your
notes will be written verydifferently than another youth that
you don't have a goodrelationship with.
So how accurate are these notes?
Right.
I know here in America,sometimes the goal of our foster
care system is to reunite kidswith families as quickly as possible.
(10:14):
I've had several guests on mypodcast talk about the foster care
system here.
And what they said is it'sreally not designed to find a suitable.
It's supposed to be finding asuitable relative to put the kids
with as soon as possible, butwe don't do that.
There's more money to be madeby keeping kids in the system versus
(10:35):
reuniting with family members.
Have you discovered some ofthat struggle in your area as well?
We have.
We have.
So when we.
When we look at the systemitself, there is such a huge financial
benefit to it that it is inthe best interest of children's aid
(10:57):
society to keep children andyouth in the system because of the
revenue it generates.
Let's look at this way.
If we have an organizationthat has, say, 20 kids in there,
the ministry is paying roughlywith those 20 kids, and I'm not very
(11:20):
good at math, but say $130 aday to maybe $180, and that organization
is roughly profiting per monthquite a bit of dollars, and they
(11:43):
pay their expenses.
There's a huge profit that canbe brought back to the families of
these children that are havingmental health issues, have been disruptive
in the community to supportthem in health at a lower cost.
And this is not being done why?
(12:10):
And since, since that we'veevolved tremendously, bring that
money back into the families,you know, help them internally and
let's cut out the the middle people.
(12:30):
I'm curious, as I look at yourbackground, you said that that a
tragic event led you to changeyour professional focus.
Tell us a little bit aboutwhat led you to this dispassionate
you have for the childprotective system.
(12:51):
It happened so quick.
We were a striving agency.
We started to help children, youth.
We got creative.
We were always giving theyouths things that they needed and
wanted to make us differentfrom other agencies.
(13:15):
We spent thousands andthousands of dollars in helping,
you know, children and youthfrom getting them involved in major
recreational activities in asecond from football to baseball
to hockey, equipment, bikes.
(13:36):
Because if we were had to gothrough the channels of the societies,
we would always need to put inthe paperwork.
And that was a lengthy process.
So we continue to help theseindividuals grow and foster growth
through different activities.
A few years ago we received anintake package which is basically
(14:04):
a package for admissions.
And we decided that he was anappropriate fit.
But I guess this individualwas more troubled than those reports
let on.
And because of that he endedup murdering another youth.
(14:24):
Wow.
In the home fifth estate gotera this and there was a huge controversy
investigation from Bob McEwenwho was one of the investigator reporters.
(14:45):
Unfortunately, when it comesto legal issues you're always directed
not to speak, not to haveconversation until these legal proceedings
are done with.
And unfortunately we never hadour opportunity to speak to Bob McEwen.
Although I have major emailsback and forth later on saying hey,
(15:07):
let's chat.
You know what you said is inaccurate.
What you're deeming to aninvestigative call self investigative
journalist, you're notproviding the proper context and
it's very narrow minded context.
So this is where it led me tothis path of pursuing advocacy and
(15:30):
helping families and childrenand youth in care to help support
them because they don't havethose supports.
You know, from the Ombudsman'soffice to the advocate's office,
it's still a government agency.
It's not a hands off agencysupporting these individuals.
(15:52):
So there's a lot of hoops thatyou need to sort of jump to get the
supports you need.
Sure.
As you think about the storiesin the book, I'm sure People are
curious.
How did you gather thosestories and is there a particular
story that was particularlymoving to you from the book?
(16:14):
Yeah, it was speaking to someof the families.
There was a lot of storiesthat were very molding to me and
to my wife and I thinkparticularly was the indigenous women
that we spoke to how things asa foster parent, as a person who
(16:38):
was sexually assaulted and waspart of the residential.
She indicated to me that thesepractices still go on.
And although that through agovernment lens indigenous population
(17:00):
has come forward.
Her as an indigenous woman wasalways belittled as a foster parent,
she was provided the proper supports.
She was accused of thingswhich at certain times she was, you
(17:25):
know, where she.
She said that she had enoughand she became explosive because
she wasn't.
She was always looked at as anindividual that that required supports
herself that was strugglingwith mental health.
So it was pretty interesting to.
To get her side of the story.
(17:50):
I know I've done severalpodcasts on this topic.
I know some of the things thathave come out from my interviews
with people who are in thefoster care system is there are several
challenging aspects of it herein America and it's probably the
same in Canada.
At 18, you age out of thesystem and if you haven't adopted
or found a place to go at 18,you just can't kicked out of the
(18:12):
foster care system when you'reoff on your own.
I've also discovered thateducation, because you're always
moving around is sporadic at best.
And a lot of kids who are inthe program don't have a good solid
education background becausethey keep moving so much.
And you talk about there's alot of trouble screening foster care
(18:34):
parents to make sure that theythe homes you're putting kids in
are safe and, and not predatory.
What as you reveal kind of allthe things that are you're dealing
with and you've discovered.
What do you hope people takeaway from reading your book?
What I truly hope that peopletake away from from the book when
(18:57):
dealing with professionals isis that as a professional you should
be able to challenge peoplepolicies, regulations, be able to
challenge people and what yourbeliefs are.
And that's the biggest thingthat I hope that I that people take
away from this book sayingthat, you know, we've evolved 20
(19:19):
years to today, but the systemhasn't changed from the past.
And in order to get and it's very.
See when we're dealing withgovernment, it's always easy to create
an illusion.
It's, you know, they, they puton paper this beautiful black and
(19:41):
white scripture legislation rules.
But when you're dealing with apopulation and people humanistically,
it's impossible.
And I think that's the biggesttake from this.
Know your.
It's for people to know theindividuals that they're working
(20:04):
with and the struggles.
You're welcoming a youth intoyour house, know who they really
are.
You're reading somebody else'sreport and it's very dangerous.
Here's, here's critical onefor you is our legislation says that
(20:26):
foster homes could have fourindividuals in a home with different
types.
Not common.
When you're dealing with.
You're.
You're bringing home fourdifferent individuals into your home.
You have a shift indemographics, you have a shift in
personality, you have a shiftin mental health issues.
(20:53):
Why would the legislation notbe changed to have no more than one
or two people in thathousehold to safeguard and to avoid
any future incidences?
It doesn't make sense.
And this is something thatfoster parents or professionals need
(21:15):
to quickly look at, evenincluding our Ministry of Social
Services.
Why hasn't attacked and alegislation that is so easy to change
have not been changed.
Why would you jeopardize otherchildren and youth to have more than
four people kids or youth in ahome where awols occur, sexual assaults
(21:41):
occur, assaults occur.
And I don't know aboutAmerica, but in Canada, a lot of
our foster parents are women,our mothers.
So you don't have a maledominant figure in, in that household
because he's either workingfull time or not in the picture.
(22:06):
Right.
You know, it's a breedingground for disaster.
Oh, it is.
Especially when you're talkingabout kids that have so a lot of
trauma in.
Their life and you're nowdon't have.
The support to make sure thatthey're safe, you're safe.
And the kids that your other kids.
In the house are also safe.
(22:26):
Yep.
So.
And we've seen this time andtime again.
Right.
Here's an interesting thing.
And we go back to, you know,the death of this youth in our organization.
And we placed a kid in ourorganization that had major mental
(22:47):
health issues.
We talk so critically aboutinstitutions, but sometimes those
institutions are needed.
This very individual that wasin our home was in custody and, and
while in an institution wherehe needed supervision, he was able
(23:09):
to.
To, to.
To seriously hurt anotheryouth and cause brain damage where
he needed emergency surgery.
Wow.
Why does the government do this?
Why does.
Does the child protectionsystem do this?
And that's the biggest question.
So if I put you in charge ofthe system for A day.
(23:33):
What are, what are immediatechanges you would make to the system
to improve it?
I would revamp the wholelegislation system.
I would reduce the amount ofkids in a home and group homes.
I would ensure that somebodyis actually policing the children's
(23:54):
aid society.
I would, instead of having ahuge umbrella of ministry offices,
I would quickly revamp it toone centralized place including child
protection.
So that means that there wouldbe one intake department for children's
(24:18):
aid society that filterschildren out to the society to a
different Jonesy society.
And there's accountability here.
That's what I would do.
The what people don'tunderstand is no one's overseeing
the child protection system.
(24:39):
There is no at arm's lengthsystem to review other children's
day societies.
And I think that's the biggest challenge.
I'm curious, Frank, whatfeedback have you received so far
from your book?
(25:00):
I received some positivefeedback from for my book.
It's opened a lot of eyes.
It's written in.
This is my first book my wifeand I ever wrote.
We're looking at doing a documentary.
The feedback that we receivedwas that individuals weren't aware
(25:22):
of what was going on.
They're very blind to hear oneside and not a full spectrum of different
professionals from a different lens.
And that was the biggest thing.
So you have any futureprojects along the same lines in
(25:44):
the future?
Yeah.
So we were looking at doing a documentary.
We were in the process ofwriting a script and doing a documentary
of this book that highlightsdifferent types of chain of events
from our initial start infostering to where we are today and
(26:06):
including all the trials andtribulations of the child welfare
system.
So Frank, I love to ask myguest this question as well.
What do you want your legacyto be?
Wow.
What would I want My legacy?
I want my legacy to be.
(26:29):
I'd like my legacy to be astrong advocate of people that are
marginalized and leave thatbehind to make the proper changes,
things that are realistic for people.
I think that is the biggest legacy.
(26:49):
I want to leave this worldbetter than what it is today.
That's awesome.
I love to give my audience,especially topics like this, some
action items.
So if you were telling theaudience things that they can do
in their area to help protect,to help improve the child protective
system, what are somesuggestions that the audience can
(27:10):
do can involve them to make adifference in their community?
Reach out to your governor,your senate, reach out to our municipal
politicians here.
Provincial government here inCanada is the biggest thing.
People need to startchallenging the narratives.
People need to start lookingat things with different lenses.
(27:35):
I think people today havegrown because of the Internet, but
they're afraid to speak.
We have that, you know,individuals feel they have to be
censored if something doesn't.
You know, one thing that I'vealways learned, if your gut says
(27:55):
something's not right,question it.
And I think it's important forpeople to question things, question
professionals in power.
And you see it happening here.
We, it's funny, in the lastfew years I've been watching out
in the states, these auditorsthat audit the police and you know,
(28:19):
that trend sort of has startedcoming here of, you know, auditing
the police and reviewing thepolice and things, making sure that
their rights don't getinfringed and, and people need to
start challenging thenarratives of the child protection
system, the policies, thelegislation that don't make sense.
(28:42):
Right.
And I think it's critical thatpeople do that.
So, Frank, where can peoplefind your book behind the doors and
connect with you on social media?
So people could purchase abook on outskirts, individuals could
purchase the book on Amazon.
(29:03):
We do have, we will be goinginto Indigo in the next two months.
So Indigo will be carrying ourbook as of March.
So there's a.
So those are the places thatthe general public could pick up
those books.
Well, Frank, thanks so muchfor kind of pulling the veil back
(29:25):
for us to kind of think aboutsomething to put on our hearts and
our minds and in our prayersto find a way to protect these vulnerable,
delicate children who are sovaluable to us into our future.
So thank you for what you doand for the advocacy and the eyes
opening opportunities you'vegiven us to think about how we can
come alongside in the systemsthat are, that are broken.
(29:46):
And help fix those systems.
Well, thank you for having meon your, your podcast.
I'm greatly appreciate it.
Thank you so much and I lookforward to speaking to you again.
Definitely, Frank.
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