September 29, 2025 • 35 mins
Curiosity isn’t just a trait; it’s a superpower, and today we’re diving deep into how to harness that power with our guest, Jon Bassford. John is an operations pro and entrepreneur whose career has been all about learning, exploring, and pushing boundaries. He’s taken bold leaps from law school into the startup world and global nonprofits, transforming operations and inspiring innovation along the way. With a knack for asking the right questions and challenging the status quo, John believes that curiosity-driven leadership is crucial for organizations to adapt and thrive in today’s fast-paced world. So, if you're ready to spark some inspiration and learn how to turn your wonder into wisdom, stick around—this conversation is going to be a blast!
Takeaways:
- Today's guest, Jon Bassford, showcases how curiosity can transform your career and life.
- Curiosity-driven leadership involves challenging assumptions and fostering innovation within organizations.
- Jon's journey emphasizes that curiosity can lead to significant breakthroughs in both personal and professional realms.
- Creating a culture of psychological safety is crucial for fostering curiosity within teams and organizations.
- Curiosity isn't just an individual trait; it's a vital movement that can reshape how organizations operate.
- Leaders should encourage diverse perspectives to cultivate curiosity and improve decision-making processes in their companies.
Links referenced in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Today's guest is someone whoproves that curiosity isn't just
a trait, it's a superpower.
John Basford is an operationsprofessional and entrepreneur whose
career has been fueled by aninsatiable desire to learn, explore,
and improve.
After law school, John took upa bold leap in the world of startups
and global nonprofits, wherehe launched, led, and transformed
(00:21):
operations with impact.
Whether he's streaming asystem or mentoring teams, John's
curiosity driven leadershiphas helped organizations innovate,
adapt, and grow.
He's known for asking theright questions, challenging assumptions,
and building bridges betweenideas and execution.
For John, curiosity isn't justa mindset, it's a movement.
(00:42):
So when you're ready to beinspired by someone who turns wonder
into wisdom and questions intobreakthroughs, you're in for a treat.
Please welcome the evercurious John Basford to the podcast.
Welcome, John.
How you doing today?
I'm doing great.
Thanks for having me.
Good to have you on, my friend.
So I'm going to ask you myfavorite question.
What's the best piece ofadvice you've ever received?
(01:03):
Best piece of advice?
I'm gonna quote the greatDallas philosopher Ted Lasso and
say, be curious, not judgmental.
Okay.
Like, I like Ted Lasso.
The first season was great.
Second season got kind of.
Yeah.
Me and my wife are both bigfans of it.
And I think he.
I think.
I think in the show, hemisquotes that being from Walt Whitman,
(01:24):
which I don't think has everbeen confirmed.
But it's a great quote.
Right, because there's.
There's a.
There's an aspect of curiositythat you're.
Again, you're questioning things.
Right.
You're looking into things,you're going deeper, and if you do
it with a judgmental mindset,it's off putting.
But if you truly do it from acuriosity standpoint, it makes everything
a lot easier.
Yeah, I kind of approach thatwith a lot of organizational things.
(01:45):
I do, too.
I look at it and go like, wecan either work inside the box, we
can, you know, adapt the box,or we can just blow the box up and
start over again.
So I'm kind of more like,let's blow the box up.
Yeah.
Yeah, 100%.
I. I spent my career leadingchange even before I even realized
that's what I was doing earlyon in my career.
(02:05):
And, you know, I certainlyhave learned there.
There's.
There's some good ways and badways to do some change, and sometimes
it does take a sledgehammer.
Right.
And other times thatsledgehammer makes things foot off
the rails, right?
Exactly, exactly.
I'm curious, John, as youthink about your journey, who are
(02:26):
some people in your life whoserv a mentor or inspiration for
you along the way?
Sure.
So a couple people come to mind.
Yeah.
I don't think I've ever hadthat, that one pinnacle person, that
role model, that mentor I'vehad, but I've had them throughout
my career.
Certainly the first boss that I.
Significant boss that I had inmy early on in my career, he allowed
(02:46):
me to be curious.
He allowed me to take on new challenges.
He allowed me to, if I go tohim, say, hey, look, I see we're
doing this over here.
I think this is the wrong wayto do it.
Can I do something else?
Sure, go ahead, you know, takea look at it, like, see if you can
improve it, you know.
So he was a great leader inallowing me to grow my professionalism
and grow in my career.
(03:06):
Was also just a good friendand personal mentor.
And throughout my journey aswell, I've worked with a number of
coaches and personaldevelopment type people in my life
and they've all had a littleimpact, right?
They've.
They've all contributed to, tovarious aspects of my growth.
I love that.
So you describe yourself ascuriosity, as a superpower.
(03:28):
Can you share a moment in yourlife where curiosity led to kind
of a breakthrough in something?
Sure.
So, you know, in my career,you know, one of the best examples
is, is early on in my career,actually my, I literally went on
a training trip for theorganization I was working for.
So after law school, I end upworking for a, a legal organization
(03:48):
as a member of a law school.
And my, my job was to travelthe country and train these law school
chapter leaders on, on theright ways to, to run their chapters
and help them improve.
And I was on a training tripwith, with a predecessor.
And you know, I'm being toldwhat to tell these leaders, but I
couldn't find it anywhere.
Like, there's nothing written down.
(04:08):
Like we, we.
There are specifics, right?
Like, like the organizationwas built around.
They have to do this muchprogramming, do things by this date,
this time.
All of these things that werelaid out to a T. And I'm being told
that I'm like, but, but whereis this loc.
Where's a manual?
Where can I point them to this?
So I went back, you know,armed with my curiosity and said,
hey, like, where is this located?
(04:29):
You're telling me to tellpeople this, but I want to show them.
And he's like, oh, it's buriedin the back of a conference manual.
And I was like, so if I don'tgo to a conference, will I ever see
this, this document?
The answer was no.
If I leave my manual atconference where I receive it, again,
the answer was no.
So I asked a simple question,can I change that?
So I took this document thatwas buried in the back of a manual,
(04:50):
made it a front and back, youknow, one pager PDF and it became
the lifeblood of everything I did.
When I talked to them abouttheir programming, I mentioned this
document.
When I talked to them abouttheir, their recruiting period, I
mentioned this document.
And because of that, bringingthis document to the forefront and
having a good communicationstrategy around that, we saw a 20%
(05:10):
increase in membership andrevenue, we saw 500% increase in
programming, and we had recordbreaking attendance at all of our
events following all because Idared to ask that one little question
of where is this located?
And then on the flip side ofthis, on my personal life, curiosity
has driven that as well.
For me.
(05:31):
I got the privilege to go toEurope while I was in high school.
I studied in Washington D.C.while I was an undergrad.
I've taken on jobs, left anestablished job where I was building
a career and went and workedfor a startup that, you know, take
some curiosity.
You have to see the through line.
You have to see what that movecould do for your career and advancement.
(05:52):
And you know, curiosity hasreally always been a through line
throughout my life and my career.
So I have to ask this question.
We always talk about leadership.
Are leaders born or are they created?
So is your curiosity born inyou or did somehow you just develop
that curiosity over time?
So to answer the question, Ithink it's a little bit of both,
right?
For leadership.
(06:12):
I think leadership leaders canbe, be made and also innate.
For me, curiosity is very much innate.
I was that kid growing up who,you know, hung around with the adults
during family reunions andtalk to them, learn, you know, ask
questions and learn aboutpeople's experiences, their jobs,
(06:32):
what they did for a living,all that type of stuff.
And probably even, you know, Iwas one of those kids who was always
told from an early age that Iwas going to be a lawyer.
Not necessarily the best trait sometimes.
That's usually because you'rea little bit of a pain in the ass
sometimes.
And because you're willing toask questions, right, you're willing
to challenge the status quo,you're willing to push back a little
bit, right?
Again, not, not in adisrespectful way.
(06:53):
But you know, in a world of,of you know, be seen, not heard that
that can be off putting.
So like it's always been therefor me, like it truly has been an
innate skill.
I just, I walk into situationspersonally, professionally and I'm
like how can we make this better?
You know, even, you know, herein D.C. when I used to drive the
(07:16):
metro, ride the metro intowork, like I would memorize where
a train would stop and wherethat would put where the doors would
open up so I could get on theright door to time it to where I
got off right by the escalatorevery time.
Like, like I, I just do thingslike that, right?
Like I'm like that's where mymind works.
Like how can I shorten my, mywalk by 20 seconds by timing which
(07:39):
door I get on on the Metro.
So that's, that's just kind ofa little bit of how my brain works.
So you're the kid that if youleft the clock by you we come back,
it'd be all taken apart.
Would you put it back together?
I'm not the handy person that,that so, so I, I'm, I'm more the
more thought leadership, youknow, person in process and procedures.
(08:00):
You know, actually I talkabout in my, my TEDx I shot back
in February in Charlotte, thetheme on that was the DIY dilemma.
And like from a guy from theMidwest, like I am not a handy person
and, and that's basicallyblasphemy, right?
Being from Decatur, Illinoisand, and not being someone who likes
to work with their hands anddo contracting work and, and mow
(08:22):
the grass, that sort of stuff.
So that I'm more on the, onthe operation side of things.
So you're the second famousguy from Decatur.
You and Richard Pryor, right?
Is Richard Pryor for Decatur?
I think so.
That'd be true.
So we're also the originalhome of the Chicago Bears.
They used the Chicago Bearsbefore they were the Chicago Bears
were the Decatur Staleys.
(08:45):
Little known fact, football trivia.
So let's talk about after law school.
You took a non traditionalpath into operations and entrepreneurship.
What sparked that pivot inyour career?
Yeah, so you know, it kind offell in my lap.
You know, when I went to lawschool there was nothing on my radar
(09:05):
whatsoever that said, heyJohn, why don't you go work for a,
a non profit association.
You're a member in law school.
But quite frankly, you know, Ienjoyed law school for the education
part of it.
I mean it's a, it's anEducational experience like none
other.
But I wasn't quite sure what Iwant to do with it.
And while, while trying tofigure that out, I got this job offer.
(09:25):
I was, I'm from the Midwest.
My, my goal was to move to dc.
This job offer offer was inBaltimore, like close enough for
now.
So I spent six years up thereand it just kind of, once I got into
working for this organization,I learned I had a knack for association
work.
And then as I grew in my, inthis role, I started taking on more,
more operational role.
(09:46):
Governance, budget, staff,management, culture, all of these
things.
I'm like, that's the directionI want to go in my next move.
So my very next job it was, itwas down in dc, so it got me down
to dc, but also was, it was atech trade association that was a
startup that worked with startups.
(10:08):
So it allowed me to reallygrow while the organization grew
and really honed my skills andalso gave me this additional insight
into being an operations person.
Because I built everything.
I didn't just come into asituation where everything was up
and running and workingsmoothly, smoothly.
I had to figure it out like wehad to figure it out as an organization.
(10:31):
And so it really kind ofhelped build that base for me.
And quite frankly, I think howit fits with my, my personality and
skill sets is obviously we'retalking about the, the, the analytical
side of things and asking theright questions and breaking things
down and process of procedures.
I'm also kind of a jack of alltrades in an operations role.
You have to know a little bitabout a lot of things in order to
(10:54):
know how to ask the rightquestions, to go to the right places,
to find the answers.
And so those, those reallyaspects, you know, fit me, who I
am, to my core.
So let's, let's dig into somedefinitions for those who may or
not have heard of this term before.
Kind of define for us what iscuriosity driven leadership and how
do you see that as being socritical in today's organizations?
(11:14):
Sure.
So for me, kind of at a baselevel, it's having this intention
of looking beyond our currentsituations, limitations, and the
world around us.
I mean, it's an old adage, right?
The only constant is change.
Everything is moving quickly.
AI.
(11:34):
You can't open a newspaper,turn on tv, look online without seeing
something about AI, right?
It's moving so quickly.
It's moving way quicker eventhan the Internet did when it first
came out.
Things are constantly changingand if you are not curious into what
you're doing, how you're doingit f constantly trying to find the
(11:56):
best ways to improve yourorganization, to improve your product,
to improve your service, youwill eventually be left behind.
You could be doing great right now.
Right.
Look at Blockbuster.
It was, it was behemoth of acompany and didn't look around.
You know, they laughed atNetflix when Netflix offered to sell
Netflix to them for $50 million.
(12:19):
And you know what?
I.
One thing I often think aboutusing that analogy of Blockbuster.
Netflix is what a Blockbusterhad bought Netflix.
Would we have the Netflix wehave today?
Did they have the mindset andthe curiosity to make Netflix what
it is today?
My guess would be no.
Right.
(12:39):
They would have adapted somedigital aspects and took it away
from store and it would have survived.
But would it be, you know,producing some of the most viewed
movies of all time right now?
You know, the K Pop Demon Hunters.
My wife and I actually watchedit without my son.
Loved it.
It's.
It's breaking records left and right.
(13:00):
Like, would Blockbuster havedone that?
You know, I don't know.
It's an interesting topic tothink about.
They might have been the new Kodak.
Right.
Digital camera and then notused it.
Right, Right.
Invested in paper.
You know, I'm curious as Ithink about organizations who are
trying to be curious and lookat the next step, would you kind
(13:21):
of say that curiosity can alsobe a danger for organizations?
I kind of think of my examplesin my head right now is, was curiosity
what led, say, Cracker Barrelto make a really bad organizational
decision?
Because like, hey, let's becurious to figure out if we can get
a different clientele.
Yeah.
(13:42):
That'S an interesting.
Like I, I actually just havingsome discussions about this.
So it's very timely.
Yeah, I mean, you got to besmart, right?
Like you, you, you don'tcreate change for the sake of change.
You know, this is, you know,this is, this is why I often talk
to people about, you know,being, being kind to yourself.
(14:04):
Right.
Like small, small businessdecision makers beat themselves all
the time about make the wrong decision.
They chose the wrong softwarefor payroll or did something.
And I'm like, these bigbehemoth companies make mistakes
too, right?
Like if they're allowed tomake mistakes, like Crackle Barrel
had the money, had the time totest this, they could have brought
(14:25):
together focus groups to test this.
Right.
So I don't think the curiositywas the problem.
I think just someone relied ontheir own thoughts of what the customers
would handle instead of takingthe time to actually test this because
that's something they couldhave done.
And maybe they did and they,they tested the wrong group.
(14:45):
I have no idea.
But the blowback from this is,is crazy, right?
That, that it's had this kindof big of a harsh pullback and, and
quite frankly, you know, Idon't think it should be so surprising
to them with just everything,everything tastes political.
Right.
Like I, I, obviously we're nothere to get into politics.
Everything, but everythingbecome, becomes a social issue.
(15:08):
And you have to be mindful ofthat for sure.
Yeah, I love that.
But it did make steak andshake popular for a couple of days.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right.
So as you, as you work withorganizations, especially with maybe
even your team, how do youhelp leaders to create, cultivate
curiosity in their teams?
(15:28):
Sure.
So there, there was a studydone by Google.
They, they were trying todetermine what traits in a team made
it successful.
This is for their own purpose, right?
Like this is not some academic study.
This is, they want to know whyteam A was outperforming team B.
And you know, thousands ofhours of interviews and form intakes
(15:49):
and all this stuff.
They talked to a lot of peoplethroughout Google and what they came
back was psychological safety.
And that's kind of the core ofcreating a curious culture.
You know, if you want tocreate an environment where you allow
your team to speak up, speakout, point out where there's problems,
bring new ideas, you gottahave psychological safety.
(16:11):
So that's kind of the base of it.
And there's ways that you canreally help cultivate that.
Right.
One is getting to know your staff.
And I don't mean at asuperficial level at the water cooler
or at the company happy hour,but truly getting to know them, you
know, what makes them excitedabout coming to work, what's their
ambitions in their job.
And start having these one onone conversations with your team.
(16:32):
And when you start asking yourteam, team, you know, what can we
do to make your job better?
You know what, what ideas doyou have to improve this organization?
Start having thoseconversations one on one with your
team.
That way when it gets to yourteam meetings and you're having that
rehash after an event or aprogram launch, whatever it may be,
and you're trying to figureout what worked and didn't work,
(16:54):
you've set the psychologicalsafety mentality amongst your team
that they know it's okay togive a true answer.
You know, we all know whathappens in those meetings normally,
which is the manager or CEO,whoever is leading that meeting,
gets up and says this just happened.
Here are my thoughts.
You just Brought that entireroom, your direction.
Like, unless you have aculture already built that allows
(17:17):
for people to disagree withthe CEO, even if someone's going
to softly disagree with them,you've watered down their response
if they completely disagreewith the CEO.
And so learn to speak last.
Right?
Learn to get to know your staff.
Allow new people, people speak up.
You know, again, kind of a, weall know the eye rolling that happens
(17:37):
when we're in a meeting andthe manager CEO says to the new person,
hey, what are your thoughts?
Or like, you've been here forfive minutes.
What do you have to contribute here?
They have a lot to contribute.
They're the ones who aren'tbogged down to the traditions, the
habits, the culture as itexists in that organization and are
able to bring the freshest setof eyes to, to what we're doing,
(18:01):
how we're doing, and why we'redoing it that way.
So, you know, those are someof my biggest tips of really kind
of starting to bring in acurious culture and break down the
barriers so that your stafftruly know that they are a contributing
part of the organization,their opinions are valued and that,
(18:21):
you know, in today'sorganizations, we're no longer working
on a factory line and buildingthe same product or same part 40
times a day.
Regardless of what's happeningaround us, we all have interesting
insights into the process andprocedures of organizations.
Accounting has a viewpoint ofwhat sales is doing and vice versa.
(18:43):
So, you know, most people say,like, what does the accountant have
to do with the sales team?
A lot.
You know, look at Fisker, thecar company, you know, you know,
famously bankrupt now, but itcame out during the bankruptcy that
they were shipping cars topeople without accepting payment
first.
We're not talking about a reamof paper or a pack of pens.
We're talking about 40, 50,$60,000 automobiles.
(19:06):
Automobiles that were beingshipped out to people without accepting
payment.
There was a breakdown inprocess of procedures between sales,
contracting and accounting.
And they probably didn't have,you know, the culture set to where
they were allowed tocommunicate back and forth in making
sure things were done right.
So people going, wow, a free car.
(19:26):
Yeah.
I mean, there was somethinglike they had something like $10
million in the receivablesthat were uncollected.
It was insane.
Wow, that's.
It just seems like a nobrainer there.
But apparently it wasn't.
Yeah.
Yep.
So I'm curious, you know, wedo some of the buzzwords today in
organizations and business andentrepreneurship is diversity.
(19:49):
How does diversity play intothis creating a curious culture and
listening and engaging peoplein so that more, more voices are
being heard.
Yeah.
So I, again, I think it's,it's part of the foundation of it.
You know, again, you know, DIand diversity, equity, inclusions,
you know, become politicizedin, in today's world.
(20:11):
And, and, but the, the truereasons behind DI is that you're
bringing together people ofdifferent perspectives, different
mindset, different ways oflooking at things if you can.
You want to find the best waysto do things and to solve problems.
Bringing together a collectionof ideas and input is the best way
(20:32):
to do that.
You know, I once had a bosswho was very smart, very ambitious,
very results oriented, and hewas famous for saying, you know,
I don't want you to justthink, I want you to think like me.
Well, every time I've kind ofworked for someone or come around
someone who has that kind ofmentality, the first thing that happens
(20:54):
when things aren't going well,they point the finger at the staff
and ask them what's going wrong.
Well, like if everyone'sthinking like you, everyone's doing
exactly what you want done,like, look in the mirror like, like,
like why are we going back tothe staff now that it's not working?
Well, when you've, you've madeit perfectly clear that you want
people to do exactly what yousay, how you do it, and think just
(21:15):
like you.
Right.
So breaking down those wallsand realizing that ideas, problem
solving and solutions are notdefined by roles, by hierarchy, even
by departments, and trulytapping into that diverse perspective
from a personal sense, from aprofessional stance, as well as,
(21:35):
you know, their position inthe organization, the insights they
have, tap into all of it.
Right.
You know, bring all that in,into the fold and make it all work.
You know, working in theassociation world, there, there are
some segments of theassociation world and we find this
in tech and consulting otherbusinesses too.
Right.
But you know, where if youdon't have, haven't had a previous
(21:59):
job in that particularindustry, they'll never hire you.
And then they keep wonderingwhy the organizations do the same
things.
You're, you're, you're workingfrom the same pool of people.
Like, I'm someone who, Ibelieve that me having worked in,
in, in, in nonprofits andassociations helps me when I work
(22:19):
with a tech company.
I think working with a techcompany helps me when I work with
an association in everythingin between.
I bring, I get to, you know,bring in ideas, process and procedures
that happen in differentindustries and apply them differently
to a new industry and organization.
And again, it's about justbeing curious about what's possible
(22:43):
and exploring every opportunity.
So how do you balancecuriosity, which could become navel
gazing at some point, withactual execution?
If you have things to getdone, how do you stop going, wow,
let's think about this andactually get some stuff done?
If you have a fast pacedscheduler that you have to work with.
Sure.
You know, so I would saythat's probably one of the hardest
things that I've had to do as,as an entrepreneur is that I, I've,
(23:07):
you know, if you know, EOs, I,you know, I've always kind of played
that integrator role.
So the visionary role inorganizations I've worked for.
But when I stepped on my own,had my own consulting company and
you know, doing, writing booksand doing TED talks out, all that
type of stuff like I, I, Istepped into the visionary role.
Right.
And I, and I live in boththose worlds.
(23:28):
So with everything I talkabout with curiosity, I'm still very
much a believer in process of procedures.
I believe they should be documented.
I believe that we should bedoing things in the most efficient,
effective way.
And if you're constantlychanging, constantly moving the targets,
that's impossible to do.
(23:49):
So there absolutely has to bea balance.
And I think for me what it is,is, is using your curiosity to figure
out the best ways to dothings, creating those process procedures
so they're nailed down or atleast you know, put down with, with
removal glue and you know, setthem up, make sure they're working,
(24:12):
but then have the curiousmechanisms to check back in so you
don't get stuck doing the samething over and over again, expecting
different results.
Right.
That's the key.
Use your curiosity to get thenew ideas, build the process procedure
so it's solid and has afoundation to work from and then
create those mechanisms tobring curiosity back in to make sure
(24:32):
that it's still the right wayto be doing it.
I like that because being inD.C. and I'm sure you've run across
a lot of policies, lawmakerswho have curiosity, who execute.
But then I think the mostimportant thing that's missing is
evaluating the impact of the decision.
So how do you encourageleaders to evaluate the decisions
(24:57):
they're making so that youdon't have a cracker barrel situation
or you don't have ablockbuster situation where you go,
we need to evaluate whether ornot what we're doing is even working.
Yeah, I think this goes backto opening up.
Right.
Being vulnerable.
Right.
Like what I mean byvulnerability is not believing that
(25:18):
you have all the right answersor that you should have all the right
answers.
Right?
Like you got to talk to peopleagain, talk to your staff, talk to
your customers, talk to yourtarget audience.
Right?
You gotta learn to step downfrom the CO seat and join everybody
else.
Right?
Like you don't have to haveall the right answers, you shouldn't
(25:40):
have all the right answers.
You gotta learn to tap intoother people and truly vet what you're
doing and see what's working,not working.
Otherwise you're just guessing.
Right.
If you're executing and nevertaking the time to evaluate or reevaluate
what you've done, you're justguessing that you made the right
(26:01):
choice and hoping it works.
And that's not a way for longterm growth.
You might work for a littlebit, right?
You might have yourblockbuster era of success, but then
you're going to get beat by Netflix.
Right?
So what's one projectinitiative you're working on right
now that really excites yourcuriosity mind?
Sure.
So it actually has to do withcuriosity itself.
(26:22):
So I've been working the lastseveral months on launching two Cureus
related assessments.
One is the Curious Leader assessment.
So it's, it's, it's breakingdown, you know what kind of archetype
of leader you are from, youknow, your typical kind of traditional
to innovator type type roles.
And then curiosity for thisone is not an archetype but kind
(26:47):
of an umbrella.
Because to be a curiousLeader, you got to have some collaboration,
you have to have someinnovation, you have to have multiple
different elements that kindof create that curious leader and
that's what this assesses.
So first and foremost whatthat person's archetype is.
But then do they meet enoughof these factors to be deemed a Curious
leader?
And the second one is aCurious Culture assessment.
(27:08):
So again it dives into theprinciples and practices like around
psychological safety andthings like that, where it's assessing
each individual's view of theculture, but then also collectively
takes that cohort and, andbrings it all together and compares
the results and comes backwith what whether or not your organization
(27:29):
is, is towards that, thatcurious designation and that one.
Actually I do have curiosityas a designated archetype for a culture.
Yeah, I'm hoping, I'm hopingthat I, I think there's a good chance
the Curious Leader one couldbe released next week.
And I believe the CuriousCulture one will, will be released
(27:50):
by the end of September.
Wow, Exciting stuff.
That's really cool.
Let us know when you do so canshow up, put a link in the, in the
section when you get it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and you can keep up todate on my website.
John Bassford.
Jon Bass, Like a fish.
Ford Like a car.
Uh, dot com.
Uh, that's.
We'll be, we'll be puttingeverything up there and so just keep
an eye out for uh, for thingsmentioning the cur.
(28:10):
The curiosity advantage.
It was kind of the umbrellaI'm putting around all these different
products and services thatwe're doing, our curiosity.
So if you can inspire my, mylisteners to one mindset change today,
what would it be.
To step beyond how youcurrently see things?
And let me give a quick littleexample on that.
(28:31):
So I was working with afounder and CEO and I came in to
make some changes.
And one thing I discovered wasthere was an area of the business
that we were getting killed bya competitor that just started and
was already killing us.
And it was around digital andvideo content.
And again our demographicswere people in their teens, early
(28:53):
20s.
So video, this is in the last10 years.
So video content was king.
And I brought this idea to theCEO and I said, hey, like, we gotta,
we gotta shake things up here.
We gotta, we gotta add somevideo content and have some speakers,
that sort of stuff.
And.
And his response was, youknow, that's not what I had envisioned
when I started the company 27years ago.
(29:15):
I'm like, really?
So before Instagram, TikTok,YouTube, cell phones in our pocket,
you didn't envision videobeing a major driver for content,
for audience, right?
And so like, you know, he,there's several things there, right?
One, he got stuck in hisoriginal vision of what he saw.
I think part of it was I wasbringing too much change too quickly.
And this is kind of where hefinally dug his heels in.
(29:36):
But you got it.
You got to break free fromyour thoughts and views of what should
be and what you've alwaysenvisioned and truly get curious
about the possibilities.
That's when you shake things up.
You explore new opportunities,you, you release new products, new
services, find new ways toserve your, your clients, your customers.
So that, that's my biggestthing is, right, it's a break free
(29:59):
from what, what you've alwaysdone and how you see things and truly
just, you know, tap into yourteam and explore new ideas.
So John, I love to ask myguests this question.
What do you want your legacyto be?
So for me, my, my, my purpose.
Let me kind of start with there.
My purpose is you Know, I wantto use my skills, my talents, my
(30:21):
experience to help people andorganizations grow.
That, that's what I want to do.
So my legacy would befulfilling that to the highest degrees.
You know, I want to work withindividuals on a very personal level,
but also, you know, reach, youknow, hundreds, thousands of people
in big keynote stages.
Right.
I want to work with people onindividual, in big levels so that
(30:45):
I can help bring, you know, myexperience, my expertise, my, my,
my message to, to otherleaders, entrepreneurs, business
owners to help them trulyreach new heights.
I love it.
So this year on season six ofthe podcast, we have a surprise question.
Pick a number between one andfour for your surprise question.
(31:07):
Let's go three.
All right, this three's beenreally popular today.
Okay.
Who would you most like to sitnext to on a 10 hour flight and why?
I'm going to go with Gary Vaynerchuk.
I'm a big fan of his.
I follow a lot of themillionaire billionaire entrepreneurs
(31:30):
and he just has a very, verydifferent way of approaching it.
I believe he does it from asense of humility.
I believe that, you know, hehas the message of be happy.
Right?
Like, be happy.
Like, not everyone has to be abillionaire and you be.
Not wanting to be abillionaire does not make you a loser.
You know, I've read in a bookfrom a famous entrepreneur who literally,
(31:52):
and then the first three orfour pages wrote, if you, if I remember
this correctly, if you createda $400,400 million business and exited,
it didn't go on to create yournext billion dollar business, you're
a failure.
I'm like, if I have a $400million exit, I am moving to the
Bahamas.
Like, like, like that is like,I will still work, I will do things,
(32:13):
I will invest, I will, I willmake my money grow.
But like, you know, like, soto me, Gary Vaynerchuk just has a
really different kind of wayof approaching what happiness is,
what hard work is, how leadersshould act.
And, and he talks a lot aboutthe, you know, respecting your employees
and caring about them.
And there's just a lot that Ilove to pick a sprain about.
(32:36):
That's great.
So where can.
Let's just connect with youand follow what you're doing and
learn more about you.
Yeah.
So I have two websites of thebest ways to, to do that.
You get all my socials there.
So my consulting website is think-lateral.com.
they get, as I mentionedbefore, my personal brand site, which
is probably the best one tokind of see the overall what I'm
doing and see my TEDx and mypersonal brand social.
(32:59):
But again, the website's JohnBasford Jon B-A-S-S-F O-R D.com and
keep an eye out for thoseupdates on the assessments.
Well John, thanks so much forsharing this and and being curious
and encouraging us also to becurious, but curious with content
and also curious with a view.
(33:19):
For if my curiosity justcuriosity or am I actually trying
to innovate in my curiosity?
Yeah, 100%.
Well, thank you very much forhaving me.
I thoroughly enjoy theconversation and look forward to
being back sometime.
Thank you John.
Today's guest is someone whoproves that curiosity isn't just
a trait, it's a superpower.
John Basford is an operationsprofessional and entrepreneur whose
career has been fueled by aninsatiable desire to learn, explore,
and improve.
After law school, John took upa bold leap in the world of startups
and global nonprofits, wherehe launched, led, and transformed
(00:21):
operations with impact.
Whether he's streaming asystem or mentoring teams, John's
curiosity driven leadershiphas helped organizations innovate,
adapt, and grow.
He's known for asking theright questions, challenging assumptions,
and building bridges betweenideas and execution.
For John, curiosity isn't justa mindset, it's a movement.
(00:42):
So when you're ready to beinspired by someone who turns wonder
into wisdom and questions intobreakthroughs, you're in for a treat.
Please welcome the evercurious John Basford to the podcast.
Welcome, John.
How you doing today?
I'm doing great.
Thanks for having me.
Good to have you on, my friend.
So I'm going to ask you myfavorite question.
What's the best piece ofadvice you've ever received?
(01:03):
Best piece of advice?
I'm gonna quote the greatDallas philosopher Ted Lasso and
say, be curious, not judgmental.
Okay.
Like, I like Ted Lasso.
The first season was great.
Second season got kind of.
Yeah.
Me and my wife are both bigfans of it.
And I think he.
I think.
I think in the show, hemisquotes that being from Walt Whitman,
(01:24):
which I don't think has everbeen confirmed.
But it's a great quote.
Right, because there's.
There's a.
There's an aspect of curiositythat you're.
Again, you're questioning things.
Right.
You're looking into things,you're going deeper, and if you do
it with a judgmental mindset,it's off putting.
But if you truly do it from acuriosity standpoint, it makes everything
a lot easier.
Yeah, I kind of approach thatwith a lot of organizational things.
(01:45):
I do, too.
I look at it and go like, wecan either work inside the box, we
can, you know, adapt the box,or we can just blow the box up and
start over again.
So I'm kind of more like,let's blow the box up.
Yeah.
Yeah, 100%.
I. I spent my career leadingchange even before I even realized
that's what I was doing earlyon in my career.
(02:05):
And, you know, I certainlyhave learned there.
There's.
There's some good ways and badways to do some change, and sometimes
it does take a sledgehammer.
Right.
And other times thatsledgehammer makes things foot off
the rails, right?
Exactly, exactly.
I'm curious, John, as youthink about your journey, who are
(02:26):
some people in your life whoserv a mentor or inspiration for
you along the way?
Sure.
So a couple people come to mind.
Yeah.
I don't think I've ever hadthat, that one pinnacle person, that
role model, that mentor I'vehad, but I've had them throughout
my career.
Certainly the first boss that I.
Significant boss that I had inmy early on in my career, he allowed
(02:46):
me to be curious.
He allowed me to take on new challenges.
He allowed me to, if I go tohim, say, hey, look, I see we're
doing this over here.
I think this is the wrong wayto do it.
Can I do something else?
Sure, go ahead, you know, takea look at it, like, see if you can
improve it, you know.
So he was a great leader inallowing me to grow my professionalism
and grow in my career.
(03:06):
Was also just a good friendand personal mentor.
And throughout my journey aswell, I've worked with a number of
coaches and personaldevelopment type people in my life
and they've all had a littleimpact, right?
They've.
They've all contributed to, tovarious aspects of my growth.
I love that.
So you describe yourself ascuriosity, as a superpower.
(03:28):
Can you share a moment in yourlife where curiosity led to kind
of a breakthrough in something?
Sure.
So, you know, in my career,you know, one of the best examples
is, is early on in my career,actually my, I literally went on
a training trip for theorganization I was working for.
So after law school, I end upworking for a, a legal organization
(03:48):
as a member of a law school.
And my, my job was to travelthe country and train these law school
chapter leaders on, on theright ways to, to run their chapters
and help them improve.
And I was on a training tripwith, with a predecessor.
And you know, I'm being toldwhat to tell these leaders, but I
couldn't find it anywhere.
Like, there's nothing written down.
(04:08):
Like we, we.
There are specifics, right?
Like, like the organizationwas built around.
They have to do this muchprogramming, do things by this date,
this time.
All of these things that werelaid out to a T. And I'm being told
that I'm like, but, but whereis this loc.
Where's a manual?
Where can I point them to this?
So I went back, you know,armed with my curiosity and said,
hey, like, where is this located?
(04:29):
You're telling me to tellpeople this, but I want to show them.
And he's like, oh, it's buriedin the back of a conference manual.
And I was like, so if I don'tgo to a conference, will I ever see
this, this document?
The answer was no.
If I leave my manual atconference where I receive it, again,
the answer was no.
So I asked a simple question,can I change that?
So I took this document thatwas buried in the back of a manual,
(04:50):
made it a front and back, youknow, one pager PDF and it became
the lifeblood of everything I did.
When I talked to them abouttheir programming, I mentioned this
document.
When I talked to them abouttheir, their recruiting period, I
mentioned this document.
And because of that, bringingthis document to the forefront and
having a good communicationstrategy around that, we saw a 20%
(05:10):
increase in membership andrevenue, we saw 500% increase in
programming, and we had recordbreaking attendance at all of our
events following all because Idared to ask that one little question
of where is this located?
And then on the flip side ofthis, on my personal life, curiosity
has driven that as well.
For me.
(05:31):
I got the privilege to go toEurope while I was in high school.
I studied in Washington D.C.while I was an undergrad.
I've taken on jobs, left anestablished job where I was building
a career and went and workedfor a startup that, you know, take
some curiosity.
You have to see the through line.
You have to see what that movecould do for your career and advancement.
(05:52):
And you know, curiosity hasreally always been a through line
throughout my life and my career.
So I have to ask this question.
We always talk about leadership.
Are leaders born or are they created?
So is your curiosity born inyou or did somehow you just develop
that curiosity over time?
So to answer the question, Ithink it's a little bit of both,
right?
For leadership.
(06:12):
I think leadership leaders canbe, be made and also innate.
For me, curiosity is very much innate.
I was that kid growing up who,you know, hung around with the adults
during family reunions andtalk to them, learn, you know, ask
questions and learn aboutpeople's experiences, their jobs,
(06:32):
what they did for a living,all that type of stuff.
And probably even, you know, Iwas one of those kids who was always
told from an early age that Iwas going to be a lawyer.
Not necessarily the best trait sometimes.
That's usually because you'rea little bit of a pain in the ass
sometimes.
And because you're willing toask questions, right, you're willing
to challenge the status quo,you're willing to push back a little
bit, right?
Again, not, not in adisrespectful way.
(06:53):
But you know, in a world of,of you know, be seen, not heard that
that can be off putting.
So like it's always been therefor me, like it truly has been an
innate skill.
I just, I walk into situationspersonally, professionally and I'm
like how can we make this better?
You know, even, you know, herein D.C. when I used to drive the
(07:16):
metro, ride the metro intowork, like I would memorize where
a train would stop and wherethat would put where the doors would
open up so I could get on theright door to time it to where I
got off right by the escalatorevery time.
Like, like I, I just do thingslike that, right?
Like I'm like that's where mymind works.
Like how can I shorten my, mywalk by 20 seconds by timing which
(07:39):
door I get on on the Metro.
So that's, that's just kind ofa little bit of how my brain works.
So you're the kid that if youleft the clock by you we come back,
it'd be all taken apart.
Would you put it back together?
I'm not the handy person that,that so, so I, I'm, I'm more the
more thought leadership, youknow, person in process and procedures.
(08:00):
You know, actually I talkabout in my, my TEDx I shot back
in February in Charlotte, thetheme on that was the DIY dilemma.
And like from a guy from theMidwest, like I am not a handy person
and, and that's basicallyblasphemy, right?
Being from Decatur, Illinoisand, and not being someone who likes
to work with their hands anddo contracting work and, and mow
(08:22):
the grass, that sort of stuff.
So that I'm more on the, onthe operation side of things.
So you're the second famousguy from Decatur.
You and Richard Pryor, right?
Is Richard Pryor for Decatur?
I think so.
That'd be true.
So we're also the originalhome of the Chicago Bears.
They used the Chicago Bearsbefore they were the Chicago Bears
were the Decatur Staleys.
(08:45):
Little known fact, football trivia.
So let's talk about after law school.
You took a non traditionalpath into operations and entrepreneurship.
What sparked that pivot inyour career?
Yeah, so you know, it kind offell in my lap.
You know, when I went to lawschool there was nothing on my radar
(09:05):
whatsoever that said, heyJohn, why don't you go work for a,
a non profit association.
You're a member in law school.
But quite frankly, you know, Ienjoyed law school for the education
part of it.
I mean it's a, it's anEducational experience like none
other.
But I wasn't quite sure what Iwant to do with it.
And while, while trying tofigure that out, I got this job offer.
(09:25):
I was, I'm from the Midwest.
My, my goal was to move to dc.
This job offer offer was inBaltimore, like close enough for
now.
So I spent six years up thereand it just kind of, once I got into
working for this organization,I learned I had a knack for association
work.
And then as I grew in my, inthis role, I started taking on more,
more operational role.
(09:46):
Governance, budget, staff,management, culture, all of these
things.
I'm like, that's the directionI want to go in my next move.
So my very next job it was, itwas down in dc, so it got me down
to dc, but also was, it was atech trade association that was a
startup that worked with startups.
(10:08):
So it allowed me to reallygrow while the organization grew
and really honed my skills andalso gave me this additional insight
into being an operations person.
Because I built everything.
I didn't just come into asituation where everything was up
and running and workingsmoothly, smoothly.
I had to figure it out like wehad to figure it out as an organization.
(10:31):
And so it really kind ofhelped build that base for me.
And quite frankly, I think howit fits with my, my personality and
skill sets is obviously we'retalking about the, the, the analytical
side of things and asking theright questions and breaking things
down and process of procedures.
I'm also kind of a jack of alltrades in an operations role.
You have to know a little bitabout a lot of things in order to
(10:54):
know how to ask the rightquestions, to go to the right places,
to find the answers.
And so those, those reallyaspects, you know, fit me, who I
am, to my core.
So let's, let's dig into somedefinitions for those who may or
not have heard of this term before.
Kind of define for us what iscuriosity driven leadership and how
do you see that as being socritical in today's organizations?
(11:14):
Sure.
So for me, kind of at a baselevel, it's having this intention
of looking beyond our currentsituations, limitations, and the
world around us.
I mean, it's an old adage, right?
The only constant is change.
Everything is moving quickly.
AI.
(11:34):
You can't open a newspaper,turn on tv, look online without seeing
something about AI, right?
It's moving so quickly.
It's moving way quicker eventhan the Internet did when it first
came out.
Things are constantly changingand if you are not curious into what
you're doing, how you're doingit f constantly trying to find the
(11:56):
best ways to improve yourorganization, to improve your product,
to improve your service, youwill eventually be left behind.
You could be doing great right now.
Right.
Look at Blockbuster.
It was, it was behemoth of acompany and didn't look around.
You know, they laughed atNetflix when Netflix offered to sell
Netflix to them for $50 million.
(12:19):
And you know what?
I.
One thing I often think aboutusing that analogy of Blockbuster.
Netflix is what a Blockbusterhad bought Netflix.
Would we have the Netflix wehave today?
Did they have the mindset andthe curiosity to make Netflix what
it is today?
My guess would be no.
Right.
(12:39):
They would have adapted somedigital aspects and took it away
from store and it would have survived.
But would it be, you know,producing some of the most viewed
movies of all time right now?
You know, the K Pop Demon Hunters.
My wife and I actually watchedit without my son.
Loved it.
It's.
It's breaking records left and right.
(13:00):
Like, would Blockbuster havedone that?
You know, I don't know.
It's an interesting topic tothink about.
They might have been the new Kodak.
Right.
Digital camera and then notused it.
Right, Right.
Invested in paper.
You know, I'm curious as Ithink about organizations who are
trying to be curious and lookat the next step, would you kind
(13:21):
of say that curiosity can alsobe a danger for organizations?
I kind of think of my examplesin my head right now is, was curiosity
what led, say, Cracker Barrelto make a really bad organizational
decision?
Because like, hey, let's becurious to figure out if we can get
a different clientele.
Yeah.
(13:42):
That'S an interesting.
Like I, I actually just havingsome discussions about this.
So it's very timely.
Yeah, I mean, you got to besmart, right?
Like you, you, you don'tcreate change for the sake of change.
You know, this is, you know,this is, this is why I often talk
to people about, you know,being, being kind to yourself.
(14:04):
Right.
Like small, small businessdecision makers beat themselves all
the time about make the wrong decision.
They chose the wrong softwarefor payroll or did something.
And I'm like, these bigbehemoth companies make mistakes
too, right?
Like if they're allowed tomake mistakes, like Crackle Barrel
had the money, had the time totest this, they could have brought
(14:25):
together focus groups to test this.
Right.
So I don't think the curiositywas the problem.
I think just someone relied ontheir own thoughts of what the customers
would handle instead of takingthe time to actually test this because
that's something they couldhave done.
And maybe they did and they,they tested the wrong group.
(14:45):
I have no idea.
But the blowback from this is,is crazy, right?
That, that it's had this kindof big of a harsh pullback and, and
quite frankly, you know, Idon't think it should be so surprising
to them with just everything,everything tastes political.
Right.
Like I, I, obviously we're nothere to get into politics.
Everything, but everythingbecome, becomes a social issue.
(15:08):
And you have to be mindful ofthat for sure.
Yeah, I love that.
But it did make steak andshake popular for a couple of days.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right.
So as you, as you work withorganizations, especially with maybe
even your team, how do youhelp leaders to create, cultivate
curiosity in their teams?
(15:28):
Sure.
So there, there was a studydone by Google.
They, they were trying todetermine what traits in a team made
it successful.
This is for their own purpose, right?
Like this is not some academic study.
This is, they want to know whyteam A was outperforming team B.
And you know, thousands ofhours of interviews and form intakes
(15:49):
and all this stuff.
They talked to a lot of peoplethroughout Google and what they came
back was psychological safety.
And that's kind of the core ofcreating a curious culture.
You know, if you want tocreate an environment where you allow
your team to speak up, speakout, point out where there's problems,
bring new ideas, you gottahave psychological safety.
(16:11):
So that's kind of the base of it.
And there's ways that you canreally help cultivate that.
Right.
One is getting to know your staff.
And I don't mean at asuperficial level at the water cooler
or at the company happy hour,but truly getting to know them, you
know, what makes them excitedabout coming to work, what's their
ambitions in their job.
And start having these one onone conversations with your team.
(16:32):
And when you start asking yourteam, team, you know, what can we
do to make your job better?
You know what, what ideas doyou have to improve this organization?
Start having thoseconversations one on one with your
team.
That way when it gets to yourteam meetings and you're having that
rehash after an event or aprogram launch, whatever it may be,
and you're trying to figureout what worked and didn't work,
(16:54):
you've set the psychologicalsafety mentality amongst your team
that they know it's okay togive a true answer.
You know, we all know whathappens in those meetings normally,
which is the manager or CEO,whoever is leading that meeting,
gets up and says this just happened.
Here are my thoughts.
You just Brought that entireroom, your direction.
Like, unless you have aculture already built that allows
(17:17):
for people to disagree withthe CEO, even if someone's going
to softly disagree with them,you've watered down their response
if they completely disagreewith the CEO.
And so learn to speak last.
Right?
Learn to get to know your staff.
Allow new people, people speak up.
You know, again, kind of a, weall know the eye rolling that happens
(17:37):
when we're in a meeting andthe manager CEO says to the new person,
hey, what are your thoughts?
Or like, you've been here forfive minutes.
What do you have to contribute here?
They have a lot to contribute.
They're the ones who aren'tbogged down to the traditions, the
habits, the culture as itexists in that organization and are
able to bring the freshest setof eyes to, to what we're doing,
(18:01):
how we're doing, and why we'redoing it that way.
So, you know, those are someof my biggest tips of really kind
of starting to bring in acurious culture and break down the
barriers so that your stafftruly know that they are a contributing
part of the organization,their opinions are valued and that,
(18:21):
you know, in today'sorganizations, we're no longer working
on a factory line and buildingthe same product or same part 40
times a day.
Regardless of what's happeningaround us, we all have interesting
insights into the process andprocedures of organizations.
Accounting has a viewpoint ofwhat sales is doing and vice versa.
(18:43):
So, you know, most people say,like, what does the accountant have
to do with the sales team?
A lot.
You know, look at Fisker, thecar company, you know, you know,
famously bankrupt now, but itcame out during the bankruptcy that
they were shipping cars topeople without accepting payment
first.
We're not talking about a reamof paper or a pack of pens.
We're talking about 40, 50,$60,000 automobiles.
(19:06):
Automobiles that were beingshipped out to people without accepting
payment.
There was a breakdown inprocess of procedures between sales,
contracting and accounting.
And they probably didn't have,you know, the culture set to where
they were allowed tocommunicate back and forth in making
sure things were done right.
So people going, wow, a free car.
(19:26):
Yeah.
I mean, there was somethinglike they had something like $10
million in the receivablesthat were uncollected.
It was insane.
Wow, that's.
It just seems like a nobrainer there.
But apparently it wasn't.
Yeah.
Yep.
So I'm curious, you know, wedo some of the buzzwords today in
organizations and business andentrepreneurship is diversity.
(19:49):
How does diversity play intothis creating a curious culture and
listening and engaging peoplein so that more, more voices are
being heard.
Yeah.
So I, again, I think it's,it's part of the foundation of it.
You know, again, you know, DIand diversity, equity, inclusions,
you know, become politicizedin, in today's world.
(20:11):
And, and, but the, the truereasons behind DI is that you're
bringing together people ofdifferent perspectives, different
mindset, different ways oflooking at things if you can.
You want to find the best waysto do things and to solve problems.
Bringing together a collectionof ideas and input is the best way
(20:32):
to do that.
You know, I once had a bosswho was very smart, very ambitious,
very results oriented, and hewas famous for saying, you know,
I don't want you to justthink, I want you to think like me.
Well, every time I've kind ofworked for someone or come around
someone who has that kind ofmentality, the first thing that happens
(20:54):
when things aren't going well,they point the finger at the staff
and ask them what's going wrong.
Well, like if everyone'sthinking like you, everyone's doing
exactly what you want done,like, look in the mirror like, like,
like why are we going back tothe staff now that it's not working?
Well, when you've, you've madeit perfectly clear that you want
people to do exactly what yousay, how you do it, and think just
(21:15):
like you.
Right.
So breaking down those wallsand realizing that ideas, problem
solving and solutions are notdefined by roles, by hierarchy, even
by departments, and trulytapping into that diverse perspective
from a personal sense, from aprofessional stance, as well as,
(21:35):
you know, their position inthe organization, the insights they
have, tap into all of it.
Right.
You know, bring all that in,into the fold and make it all work.
You know, working in theassociation world, there, there are
some segments of theassociation world and we find this
in tech and consulting otherbusinesses too.
Right.
But you know, where if youdon't have, haven't had a previous
(21:59):
job in that particularindustry, they'll never hire you.
And then they keep wonderingwhy the organizations do the same
things.
You're, you're, you're workingfrom the same pool of people.
Like, I'm someone who, Ibelieve that me having worked in,
in, in, in nonprofits andassociations helps me when I work
(22:19):
with a tech company.
I think working with a techcompany helps me when I work with
an association in everythingin between.
I bring, I get to, you know,bring in ideas, process and procedures
that happen in differentindustries and apply them differently
to a new industry and organization.
And again, it's about justbeing curious about what's possible
(22:43):
and exploring every opportunity.
So how do you balancecuriosity, which could become navel
gazing at some point, withactual execution?
If you have things to getdone, how do you stop going, wow,
let's think about this andactually get some stuff done?
If you have a fast pacedscheduler that you have to work with.
Sure.
You know, so I would saythat's probably one of the hardest
things that I've had to do as,as an entrepreneur is that I, I've,
(23:07):
you know, if you know, EOs, I,you know, I've always kind of played
that integrator role.
So the visionary role inorganizations I've worked for.
But when I stepped on my own,had my own consulting company and
you know, doing, writing booksand doing TED talks out, all that
type of stuff like I, I, Istepped into the visionary role.
Right.
And I, and I live in boththose worlds.
(23:28):
So with everything I talkabout with curiosity, I'm still very
much a believer in process of procedures.
I believe they should be documented.
I believe that we should bedoing things in the most efficient,
effective way.
And if you're constantlychanging, constantly moving the targets,
that's impossible to do.
(23:49):
So there absolutely has to bea balance.
And I think for me what it is,is, is using your curiosity to figure
out the best ways to dothings, creating those process procedures
so they're nailed down or atleast you know, put down with, with
removal glue and you know, setthem up, make sure they're working,
(24:12):
but then have the curiousmechanisms to check back in so you
don't get stuck doing the samething over and over again, expecting
different results.
Right.
That's the key.
Use your curiosity to get thenew ideas, build the process procedure
so it's solid and has afoundation to work from and then
create those mechanisms tobring curiosity back in to make sure
(24:32):
that it's still the right wayto be doing it.
I like that because being inD.C. and I'm sure you've run across
a lot of policies, lawmakerswho have curiosity, who execute.
But then I think the mostimportant thing that's missing is
evaluating the impact of the decision.
So how do you encourageleaders to evaluate the decisions
(24:57):
they're making so that youdon't have a cracker barrel situation
or you don't have ablockbuster situation where you go,
we need to evaluate whether ornot what we're doing is even working.
Yeah, I think this goes backto opening up.
Right.
Being vulnerable.
Right.
Like what I mean byvulnerability is not believing that
(25:18):
you have all the right answersor that you should have all the right
answers.
Right?
Like you got to talk to peopleagain, talk to your staff, talk to
your customers, talk to yourtarget audience.
Right?
You gotta learn to step downfrom the CO seat and join everybody
else.
Right?
Like you don't have to haveall the right answers, you shouldn't
(25:40):
have all the right answers.
You gotta learn to tap intoother people and truly vet what you're
doing and see what's working,not working.
Otherwise you're just guessing.
Right.
If you're executing and nevertaking the time to evaluate or reevaluate
what you've done, you're justguessing that you made the right
(26:01):
choice and hoping it works.
And that's not a way for longterm growth.
You might work for a littlebit, right?
You might have yourblockbuster era of success, but then
you're going to get beat by Netflix.
Right?
So what's one projectinitiative you're working on right
now that really excites yourcuriosity mind?
Sure.
So it actually has to do withcuriosity itself.
(26:22):
So I've been working the lastseveral months on launching two Cureus
related assessments.
One is the Curious Leader assessment.
So it's, it's, it's breakingdown, you know what kind of archetype
of leader you are from, youknow, your typical kind of traditional
to innovator type type roles.
And then curiosity for thisone is not an archetype but kind
(26:47):
of an umbrella.
Because to be a curiousLeader, you got to have some collaboration,
you have to have someinnovation, you have to have multiple
different elements that kindof create that curious leader and
that's what this assesses.
So first and foremost whatthat person's archetype is.
But then do they meet enoughof these factors to be deemed a Curious
leader?
And the second one is aCurious Culture assessment.
(27:08):
So again it dives into theprinciples and practices like around
psychological safety andthings like that, where it's assessing
each individual's view of theculture, but then also collectively
takes that cohort and, andbrings it all together and compares
the results and comes backwith what whether or not your organization
(27:29):
is, is towards that, thatcurious designation and that one.
Actually I do have curiosityas a designated archetype for a culture.
Yeah, I'm hoping, I'm hopingthat I, I think there's a good chance
the Curious Leader one couldbe released next week.
And I believe the CuriousCulture one will, will be released
(27:50):
by the end of September.
Wow, Exciting stuff.
That's really cool.
Let us know when you do so canshow up, put a link in the, in the
section when you get it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and you can keep up todate on my website.
John Bassford.
Jon Bass, Like a fish.
Ford Like a car.
Uh, dot com.
Uh, that's.
We'll be, we'll be puttingeverything up there and so just keep
an eye out for uh, for thingsmentioning the cur.
(28:10):
The curiosity advantage.
It was kind of the umbrellaI'm putting around all these different
products and services thatwe're doing, our curiosity.
So if you can inspire my, mylisteners to one mindset change today,
what would it be.
To step beyond how youcurrently see things?
And let me give a quick littleexample on that.
(28:31):
So I was working with afounder and CEO and I came in to
make some changes.
And one thing I discovered wasthere was an area of the business
that we were getting killed bya competitor that just started and
was already killing us.
And it was around digital andvideo content.
And again our demographicswere people in their teens, early
(28:53):
20s.
So video, this is in the last10 years.
So video content was king.
And I brought this idea to theCEO and I said, hey, like, we gotta,
we gotta shake things up here.
We gotta, we gotta add somevideo content and have some speakers,
that sort of stuff.
And.
And his response was, youknow, that's not what I had envisioned
when I started the company 27years ago.
(29:15):
I'm like, really?
So before Instagram, TikTok,YouTube, cell phones in our pocket,
you didn't envision videobeing a major driver for content,
for audience, right?
And so like, you know, he,there's several things there, right?
One, he got stuck in hisoriginal vision of what he saw.
I think part of it was I wasbringing too much change too quickly.
And this is kind of where hefinally dug his heels in.
(29:36):
But you got it.
You got to break free fromyour thoughts and views of what should
be and what you've alwaysenvisioned and truly get curious
about the possibilities.
That's when you shake things up.
You explore new opportunities,you, you release new products, new
services, find new ways toserve your, your clients, your customers.
So that, that's my biggestthing is, right, it's a break free
(29:59):
from what, what you've alwaysdone and how you see things and truly
just, you know, tap into yourteam and explore new ideas.
So John, I love to ask myguests this question.
What do you want your legacyto be?
So for me, my, my, my purpose.
Let me kind of start with there.
My purpose is you Know, I wantto use my skills, my talents, my
(30:21):
experience to help people andorganizations grow.
That, that's what I want to do.
So my legacy would befulfilling that to the highest degrees.
You know, I want to work withindividuals on a very personal level,
but also, you know, reach, youknow, hundreds, thousands of people
in big keynote stages.
Right.
I want to work with people onindividual, in big levels so that
(30:45):
I can help bring, you know, myexperience, my expertise, my, my,
my message to, to otherleaders, entrepreneurs, business
owners to help them trulyreach new heights.
I love it.
So this year on season six ofthe podcast, we have a surprise question.
Pick a number between one andfour for your surprise question.
(31:07):
Let's go three.
All right, this three's beenreally popular today.
Okay.
Who would you most like to sitnext to on a 10 hour flight and why?
I'm going to go with Gary Vaynerchuk.
I'm a big fan of his.
I follow a lot of themillionaire billionaire entrepreneurs
(31:30):
and he just has a very, verydifferent way of approaching it.
I believe he does it from asense of humility.
I believe that, you know, hehas the message of be happy.
Right?
Like, be happy.
Like, not everyone has to be abillionaire and you be.
Not wanting to be abillionaire does not make you a loser.
You know, I've read in a bookfrom a famous entrepreneur who literally,
(31:52):
and then the first three orfour pages wrote, if you, if I remember
this correctly, if you createda $400,400 million business and exited,
it didn't go on to create yournext billion dollar business, you're
a failure.
I'm like, if I have a $400million exit, I am moving to the
Bahamas.
Like, like, like that is like,I will still work, I will do things,
(32:13):
I will invest, I will, I willmake my money grow.
But like, you know, like, soto me, Gary Vaynerchuk just has a
really different kind of wayof approaching what happiness is,
what hard work is, how leadersshould act.
And, and he talks a lot aboutthe, you know, respecting your employees
and caring about them.
And there's just a lot that Ilove to pick a sprain about.
(32:36):
That's great.
So where can.
Let's just connect with youand follow what you're doing and
learn more about you.
Yeah.
So I have two websites of thebest ways to, to do that.
You get all my socials there.
So my consulting website is think-lateral.com.
they get, as I mentionedbefore, my personal brand site, which
is probably the best one tokind of see the overall what I'm
doing and see my TEDx and mypersonal brand social.
(32:59):
But again, the website's JohnBasford Jon B-A-S-S-F O-R D.com and
keep an eye out for thoseupdates on the assessments.
Well John, thanks so much forsharing this and and being curious
and encouraging us also to becurious, but curious with content
and also curious with a view.
(33:19):
For if my curiosity justcuriosity or am I actually trying
to innovate in my curiosity?
Yeah, 100%.
Well, thank you very much forhaving me.
I thoroughly enjoy theconversation and look forward to
being back sometime.
Thank you John.
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