April 30, 2025 • 55 mins
Dr. Wylan D. Wilson, an esteemed Assistant Professor of Theological Ethics at Duke Divinity School, joins us to discuss the crucial intersection of bioethics, gender, and theology, particularly as they relate to the health disparities faced by Black women. Her current research focuses on the role of the Black church in addressing the alarming maternal health crisis in the United States, highlighting the systemic inequities that persist within healthcare. Dr. Wilson's insights illuminate the necessity for a womanist approach to bioethics, which seeks to include diverse voices and experiences, thereby fostering a more equitable healthcare landscape. Throughout our conversation, she emphasizes the importance of listening to marginalized voices, advocating for justice, and creating supportive communities. Join us as we explore these pressing issues and the transformative potential of womanist bioethics in reshaping health outcomes for all.
An engaging discourse on the intersections of theology, medicine, and ethics unfolds through the insights of Dr. Wylan D. Wilson, an esteemed assistant professor at Duke Divinity School, whose expertise encompasses bioethics, gender, and theology. The conversation delves into Dr. Wilson's pivotal research project, which investigates the role of the Black church in addressing racial inequities in Black women's health, particularly in the context of maternal health crises in North Carolina. Through a rich narrative, Dr. Wilson elucidates the historical and systemic factors contributing to health disparities faced by marginalized communities, emphasizing the necessity of a womanist approach to bioethics that seeks to uplift and empower Black women and other women of color. This dialogue not only highlights the critical need for inclusive theological discourse but also advocates for the urgent reformation of healthcare practices to ensure equitable access and treatment for all, particularly in underrepresented demographics. Dr. Wilson's unique perspective invites listeners to consider how faith communities can act as agents of change, fostering a holistic understanding of health that intertwines spiritual, social, and ethical dimensions, ultimately enriching the broader conversation about health and justice in society.
Takeaways:
- Dr. Wylan D. Wilson emphasizes the urgent need to address racial inequities in healthcare, particularly for Black women.
- The intersection of bioethics and womanist theology highlights the importance of inclusive perspectives in addressing health disparities.
- Effective communication and transparency are crucial in personal relationships, as emphasized by Dr. Wilson's father's advice regarding marriage.
- Community engagement and accountability are essential for faith institutions to reclaim their role in healthcare advocacy and support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:59):
My guest today, Dr.
Wylan D.
Wilson is Assistant professorof Theological Ethics at Duke Divinity
School where she teacheswithin the Theology, Medicine and
Cultural Initiative.
Her teaching and research atthe intersection of bioethics, gender
and theology.
She is a former teachingfaculty at Harvard Medical School
Business for Bioethics.
(01:20):
She serves as a Senior Fellowat the Harvard Divinity School center
for World Religions andvisiting lector at Harvard Divinity
School of Women's Studies andReligion Programming.
She is also former AssistantDirector of Education at Fort Tuskegee
University national center forBioethics and Research and Health
Care, and former facultymember at Tuskegee University College
(01:41):
of Agriculture, Environmentand Nutrition Science.
She is currently PrincipalInvestigator for the Bioethics and
Black Church Addressing RacialInequities and Black Women's Health
in North Carolina ResearchProject, which examines the potential
of the Black church as aresource for addressing the Black
maternal health Crisis in the U.S.
(02:03):
Dr.
Wilson earned her Ph.D.
in Religion, Ethics andSociety from Emory University.
Her Ms.
Is in Agricultural Resourcesand Managerial Economics from Cornell
University and our MDIBInterdenominational Theological Center.
She is a member of Society forthe Study of Black Religion, the
American Society for Bioethicsand Humanities, the American Academy
(02:26):
of Religion, and the centerfor Reconciliation Advisory Board
at duke Divinity School.
Dr.
Wilson's publications includethis Is My Body, Faith Communities
as Sites for TransfiguredVulnerabilities and Bioenhancement
and A Vulnerable Body ATheological Engagement from Baylor.
Her first book, EconomicEthics and the Black Church, and
(02:49):
her second book, WomanistBioethics, Social Justice, Spirituality
and the Black Woman's Health,is forthcoming.
We welcome her to the podcast.
Well, Dr.
Wilson, welcome to the podcast.
How you doing today?
I am fantastic.
Thank you.
Wonderful to be here.
Well, we should have aphenomenal and engaging conversation.
(03:10):
I'm looking forward to this.
This is an important topic aswe try to add context and more information
to people's lives and always bring.
I'd like to bring value to myaudience, so I'm looking forward
to what we're going to talk about.
But before we jump into allthat fun stuff, my favorite question
I like to ask all my guestsis, what's the best piece of advice
you've ever received?
(03:31):
Oh, yeah, I'll say from my father.
Oh my gosh, I love my dad so much.
Nobody's perfect, right?
Right.
But my dad.
My dad did a beautiful job ofjust being.
Just being an amazing person.
Right.
And a.
And a humane human being.
(03:51):
And he taught us how to treatpeople and as long with my mom.
But, but the advice that mydad gave me, though, it was right
before I got married.
And he told me.
He said, listen, he said, Ineed you to please don't assume that
that man can read your mind.
(04:13):
Yeah.
He said.
He said, whatever you need,please let him know what you.
He said.
Just verbalize it.
Don't.
Don't sit there and be angrysaying, oh, well, he didn't.
He didn't do this for me or.
He didn't give me this.
He knows I like this.
He said, no, no, no.
No man can read a woman's mind.
Just be upfront, be honest.
Let him know what you need.
(04:35):
And so that.
That I can actually say thathas blessed my marriage because.
And.
And now.
And you have to.
You have to, you know,communicate in a way that is loving,
too.
Right?
Like, you need.
You know, sometimes people cantake that and go all the way to the
other end.
Hey, I need this, you know, so.
So the whole.
The way we communicate also,compassionately, lovingly, also is.
(04:59):
Is important.
And I've learned that through Mar.
But, yeah, but don't assumethat a person can read your mind.
I know that.
That is so true.
I mean, we hope they can readour mind, but we know that's not
really true.
I actually test wife all the time.
I was like, can you tell whatI'm thinking?
She's like, no, I don't wantto guess what you're thinking.
So.
(05:21):
Exactly.
I'm better off not knowingwhat is going on right now.
You know what?
That is a wonderful thing thatyou have.
And, you know.
Yeah, that's right.
That's real.
It's so real out there.
Tell us, like, if you couldjust spend five minutes in my mind,
you would know so much moreabout me.
(05:45):
I'm always.
I've always curious.
Dr.
Wilson, who are some people inyour life who served as mentors on
your journey?
Yeah.
Oh, my goodness.
The first person that popsinto my head anytime anyone asks
me about a mentor, peoplestart talking about mentors would
have to be Ralph Christie.
(06:06):
He was my mentor in graduateschool when I was.
This was when I was doing mymaster's at Cornell University.
And let me tell you, Ralph wasjust an amazing mentor, amazing blessing
to my life.
He was someone who.
He saw me as a whole person,not just as a student who he was
(06:28):
going to be able to getpublications out of, or, you know,
like, he did not.
Because, I mean, let's be real.
Some people do see, they.
They see the opportunity in aperson instead of the opportunity
for them in a person.
Right.
Instead of the.
That.
That person as a whole person.
And.
And he impacted my life as amentor because he saw me as a whole
(06:52):
person and he was concernedabout my professional development,
but also my spiritual development.
And he really listened andunderstood kind of where I was as
a student, because I was in afield that I did love.
(07:13):
I loved, you know, looking atagricultural economics.
It was beautiful.
But.
But then after my master's, Ididn't want to do that beyond the
master's level, and herealized that, and he helped me to
see, okay, so what could be agood next move for you, you know,
(07:36):
what could work for you.
And so he is a part of a lotof things that he taught me is a
part of why I mentor studentsthe way I do, you know, trying to.
To see them as whole persons,being compassionate and.
And giving and giving.
Of.
Giving fully of yourself onbehalf of another.
(07:57):
That's.
Yeah.
So.
Ralph Heck.
Yeah, that's.
That's the one.
And the second one, of course, Alton.
Dr.
Alton Pollard, he was mymentor for my PhD, and this was when
I was at emory University.
And Dr.
Pollard, again, just aphenomenal human being.
(08:18):
And he had so much just lovelike that, that.
The love that he has forpeople, for the church, you know,
I mean, oh, my gosh, I.
I just am super grateful for.
For the two of them andbecause they have truly shaped me
and helped shape me even as a scholar.
(08:38):
Yeah, that's so cool.
I love how people can pourinto our lives and have such impact.
It's always kind of my dreamis that I can.
People can look back at me andsay I was there to help them along
their journey.
Not necessarily to, likesomebody, like you said, take credit
for their work, but just tokind of help bring out the work that
God has placed on their heartand the abilities and the talents
that God has tapped into themand want to kind of help them unpack
(09:01):
all of that.
So that's really amazing.
Yes.
I want to get into what youtalk about, but I want to help you
define some terms first,because as we get into this conversation,
it's always helpful, I think,to define terms.
So first I want you to kind ofdefine for us what is womanist theology?
Ah, yes, yes, yes.
So womanist theology is notjust a theoretical framework, but
(09:24):
a really important part of it.
It's also a social change framework.
Right.
And it is really.
It's a response to the waythat mainstream American theology,
Western theology, neglectedcertain voices and experiences of
(09:47):
particularly minoritizedindividuals and minoritized Women.
Right.
Particularly.
So the foremothers of womanisttheology were actually students of
James Cone.
Right.
So these were students of, aswe say, the father of black theology.
(10:10):
Right.
So students of James Cone.
These women were saying, hey,wait a minute.
You know, black theology isreally focusing on the black male
experience, and it's notpicking up the experience of black
women, which really looks, youknow, it's layered.
It's class, gender and race.
(10:33):
Right.
And so those women really andtruly focused on, okay, we need a
more inclusive theology thatcan actually, you know, look at the
experience, bring into theconversation the experience of black
and other women, women of color.
(10:54):
So.
So it expands the conversationin theology to include more experiences.
Yes.
Good.
Now, also, I know people mayhave heard of black liberation theology,
but also kind of give us agood working definition of how you
use that term.
Yeah.
So black liberation theology,again, another response to how Western
(11:17):
mainstream American neglectedthese voices and experiences.
Right.
And so black liberationtheology actually made the case that
God is on the side of raciallyand economically subjugated people.
So.
(11:37):
So that was very important.
Black liberation theology, Ireally believe, was such a powerful
force because at a time whenAfrican Americans at every turn were
being told that they.
They couldn't.
Because they were black.
(11:57):
Right.
They couldn't be served herebecause they were black.
They couldn't get the care ina hospital.
Right.
Because even our hospitalswere segregated in this country up
until, like, 1963, 64.
And, you know, hospitals were segregated.
So seeing black folksliterally die because they couldn't
(12:18):
get care just because of theirrace, that's wild.
Right.
And so at this horrible timein our history, we needed black theologians
to be able to.
To give us that hope that,yeah, God is not a white racist.
Right.
Like, that was one of the texts.
(12:38):
Right.
That.
That was a.
One of the classic texts atthat time.
But.
But yeah, to.
To say to black fol.
God truly is on the side ofracially and economically subjugated
people of color.
For sure.
Thank you for doing that.
Sometimes when we hear theword theology, especially those of
(13:00):
us in the church, weimmediately go to how to make sure
that we aren't being hereticalin our understanding and belief.
So I just wanted you to kindof explain that for the context of
when we talk about thetheology behind things.
So thank you.
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I appreciate it.
Yes, yes.
(13:21):
So let's tie those two things in.
So tell me why you have thisstrong desire and your work is so
focused on this for a womanistapproach to bioethics and how does
your background influence whatyou're focusing on right now?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, for sure.
So let me start.
(13:42):
Let me start with mybackground, because I think that'll
help.
So I was born just 10 yearsafter the desegregation of hospitals,
right?
So, so here I am, you know,coming into this world where many
of my folk in my family, blackfolk in my community and in my church.
(14:08):
I was raised in an AfricanAmerican black Baptist church in
the south.
Right.
In the rural South.
That, that church, that churchrules out.
And, and I just rememberhearing horror story, horror stories
about black folks interaction,you know, with the health care system
in this nation.
(14:30):
Right.
And.
And that was one of the thingsthat really impacted me, you know,
and, and I kept hearing it, right?
Like, it wasn't just in mychildhood, but I was like, my goodness.
So then through the 80s, thenthe 90s, and now in the 21st century,
why am I still hearing horror stories?
Right?
(14:51):
So that's one thing thatreally impacted me.
But then another thing also isas I got older and then started working,
particularly in the, the ruralsouthern black belt in Alabama, you
know, working with churches inthat area, I was able to see a little
(15:14):
bit clearer because I saw it abit, you know, growing up, but I
could see it very clearly inthe black belt in Alabama.
Many, you know, many of theproblems that African Americans were
having to deal with when itcame to health disparities, right.
And access to health care,particularly in rural areas, because
(15:36):
many of the women have totravel a one hour or more just to
deliver their child.
Right.
And the hospitals that are inrural areas, when the budget gets
tight, the first thing to go,of course, the obstetrical ward,
right.
And maternal mortality ishigher in these rural areas.
(15:57):
And a lot of those ruralhospitals are the economic drivers
in rural areas, Right.
And so with, with theclosings, the amount of closings
that we've had in ruralhospitals through the years, we've
had more than 135 ruralhospital closings since 2010.
(16:18):
Right.
And almost 20 of those were in 2020.
Wow.
Yeah.
And rural hospitals are 35% ofall hospitals in this nation.
So this.
So that is not a small thing,you know, and so, so when I, when
I had a chance to see that,you know, really clearly, that also
(16:39):
really drove home to me howimportant bioethics is, but particularly
womanist bioethics for me issomething that, that I had to, to
create, because bioethics as afield, it was very much focused on
(17:01):
white, like European andEuropean male American male experiences.
And so there again, you, youknow, leave neglected the experiences
of black folk, you know,Latino folk, you know, Asian American.
It just, you know, and so, anddefinitely women.
(17:21):
So, so that's why this wholenotion of womanist bioethics was
important.
Because womanism, one reallyimportant thing about womanism, it
only has a starting point.
With African American andwomen of color's experience, that's
just a starting point.
But the goal of it is thehealing, thriving, the flourishing
(17:44):
of all of humanity.
So no matter if you're black,white, you know, all folk, Latino,
you know, so.
So that's what's important about.
And that's why the frameworkof womanist bioethics is so important,
because of how inclusive it is.
I love that.
So tell us about your book.
(18:05):
You have a new book that'scoming out, Womanist Bioethics.
Tell us a little bit aboutthat, the framework.
What led you to write that book?
I know you kind of gave us alittle bit of the backdrop, but tell
us, dig us deeper into that book.
Yeah, so that book came aboutbecause, you know, here I am looking
at the black women's healthcrisis in this nation, right?
(18:26):
Black women, half of Blackwomen age 20 or older actually have
hypertension.
Heart disease is leading causeof death for them.
They're more likely than whitewomen to be diagnosed with diabetes.
They're understudied inhealthcare, underserved, and two
(18:48):
to four times more likely thanwhite women to die from pregnancy
related complications.
And so that, you know, lookingat those, you know, health disparities
is, is important because thesedisparities are not attributed to
(19:09):
just, you know, biologicalproblems or the fact that, you know,
it's not, not behavioraldifferences, you know, only, but
it really is the historicaland pervasive devaluation of minoritized
bodies, right?
That is the point there.
And so looking at that,looking at those statistics, it was
(19:34):
important for me to actuallyopen a space for conversation about
how race, gender, health andspirituality, all of these are important
considerations in dealingwith, with health disparities.
And what's important also isthat, so bioethics as a field.
(19:58):
Because I know people might besaying, okay, but why bioethics?
Well, because as the field,bioethics has so much to do with
the doctor patientrelationship, right?
It has principles for that,the research and all of that.
So it weighs in on that, thatconversation, actually conversations
(20:22):
about policies around, youknow, health care, beginning of life,
end of life.
You see what I'm saying?
So, and then how funds aredistributed for biomedical research
and who is involved in that research.
Right, so, so see, so, sobioethics has to do with all that.
(20:43):
And so that's why it wasimportant to, to really look and
say, okay, wait a minute.
This conversation going on.
Bioethics needs to expand toinclude more voices and more experiences,
particularly of minoritizedpopulations in this country.
I love that.
So you gave us a wide overviewof what your book addresses.
(21:07):
But you make the argument inyour book that mainstream bioethics
really privileges particularlywhite male perspectives.
Can you share an example forthe audience so they can kind of
drill down on this, of howthis exclusively impacts the health
care outcomes of say, black women?
And you kind of touched onsome of that.
But you know, maybe a moreconcrete example will kind of really
(21:29):
bring home your point.
Yes, yes.
So I have so many examplesgoing through my heads.
I'm like, okay, wait, justpull one while they put one.
So I'll tell you.
Well, okay, let's just do two.
One is with incarcerated blackwomen, we often, we talk about vulnerable
(21:54):
populations.
We often really do forgetabout our incarcerated brothers and
sisters and siblings.
Right.
Folks who are incarcerated,you know, we, they need care too.
Right?
We don't just throw peopleaway just because they become incarcerated.
And as a matter of fact,particularly when you look at incarceration
(22:14):
of women, a lot of women endup in the carceral system because
they were in a relationshipwhere it was intimate partner violence.
Right.
So there might have beendomestic violence in the home and
this woman may have beendefending herself, ends up, you know,
fatally harming the spouse orthe boyfriend and boom, you know,
(22:38):
incarcerated.
So, so when we look atincarcerated women, particularly
black women, there are severalthings that, that we need to look
at.
One, there are laws that arenot really being heeded like across
the board.
(22:58):
So the law that has to do withnot shackling people during pregnancy,
particularly during delivery.
Right.
But also not putting pregnantwomen in handcuffs when they are
arrested because of course isharm of falling and all that.
And so the law itself is notapplied across the board the way
(23:23):
it should be.
Some folk don't even knowabout, you know, those laws in their
existence.
And, and they keep coming upthese reports of how this law is
being violated.
Right.
In, in many places, in many instances.
So that is one thing.
But also there's a story in mybook of Robbie hall, and she's a
(23:45):
58 year old grandmother, youknow, and I tell her story in the
book she's incarcerated.
And, and that, and the way Itell the story is so that you can
See the.
The economic injustice that'sgoing on in the carceral system because
people are working for penniesbecause legally they can do that.
Right, sure.
So many of our laws are deeplyembedded in these laws from the,
(24:06):
you know, 19th century.
Right.
And.
And so people.
Then the carceral system canget away with offering slave wages
to.
To workers in.
In prison factories.
So.
So I'm telling these storiesand story about how.
Then she gets sick.
(24:26):
Right.
And so, so there's just layersof looking at the kind of care that.
That does or does not happen,you know, in that case, and how.
How these women are very muchvulnerable in the health care system,
particularly minoritizedwomen, underserved, understudied,
(24:50):
you know, and really and trulybearing the burden of health disparities.
Wow, that's really helpful tokind of bring some basis to the story.
We hear so many things and wego, huh, that's just not happening.
But to actually hear thosestories kind of brings home and concretizes
what we're talking about.
(25:10):
That's right.
I'm curious.
This is really important workyou're doing.
Who are some folks out therethat are doing good works on these,
on this issue?
Yes, yes, yes.
Black Mamas Matters allianceis phenomenal organization.
My goodness, they have blessedme in my work because they use actually
(25:32):
a womanist framework in howthey structure what they do.
Right.
And so.
So they attack the issue ofblack maternal mortality from the
policy level.
They attack it from faith, youknow, spiritual level of spirituality,
(25:57):
the academy, you know.
So they have this.
And that's why I love theorganization, because of the way
they do what they.
Trying to bring folk fromthese various sectors together for
training.
Because I've actually attendedsome of their conferences because
they do training so that wecan become more aware of the black
(26:22):
maternal mortality rates,infant mortality.
So we become aware, but thenalso become empowered and equipped
to address these issues.
And so, yeah, I do appreciatewhat they do because their philosophy
is definitely in line with how.
With how I.
(26:42):
How I believe that we shouldall be operating.
I just had at the beginning of this.
This year, I had a blackmaternal health and black church
forum here in Durham, NorthCarolina, and it was really powerful.
We brought in pastors, youknow, church members, but then also
(27:03):
gynecologists, obstetricians.
We had folk in public health.
We have midwives, doulas.
I'm telling you, I just.
I wanted everybody at thetable, right.
Because if we really areserious about addressing health disparities,
it takes all of us, you Know,and, and so at that forum we had
(27:24):
different panels and, and oneof folks favorite panels was the
panel where it was just black men.
We raised the voices of blackmen because, just saying, maternal
mortality, right.
We actually just isolate justthe woman.
Right.
But that woman is embedded,deeply embedded in a communal structure,
(27:50):
in a familial structure.
Right.
And so, so, so really raisingup the voices of those who can actually
support women during this,during pregnancy and after.
And so, so having a panel toaddress how is it that African American
(28:10):
men can, can support black women.
And it was all brothers.
All the, the brothers came andspoke and it was just actually a
blessing and to, because, tohear also what their experience is
and trying to support, youknow, and so, so that is, that's
important.
(28:30):
Yeah, yeah.
That's amazing.
You know, your work is deeplyrooted in the black Christian tradition.
How do theological ethics andbioethics intersect as you try and
address the systemic healthcrisis and disparities in our country?
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
(28:51):
So theological ethics andbioethics intersect.
It's a funny thing becausethey intersect really at the inception
of bioethics.
Because, because bioethics, Iwould tell you, if we look at the
origin story of how bioethicscame about, you know, as a field,
(29:13):
like how it was shaped as afield, it was shaped by a lot of
folks who were theologiansthat they were all, you know, particularly
white males.
Right, right.
But theology, these, thesewere theologians and, and they were
folk who were Christian ethicists.
So, so, so, so the, therelationship between the two is very
(29:37):
intimate, you know, from thevery origins of the field itself.
And, and that's what's so, so important.
So, so me opening thisconversation about ext.
Expanding bioethics beyondjust one singular voice, one singular
(29:59):
perspective, that conversationis, is really, really important because
I'm actually asking bioethics,you know, come back home, you know
what I'm saying?
So come back to who, to who,who you are, who you've been, you
know, always having this,this, this conversation.
(30:22):
Right.
With the significance of ourfaith and our faith life and how
that does have implications.
It has implications, as we allknow, with policy.
Because we've seen the fights.
We've seen the policy fights.
Right, but, but in my book,what's really important is.
I am, am also saying, though.
(30:44):
But it has implications alsofor us as, as, as, as individuals.
Because, yes, we have to lookat the institutional level, and I
do talk about that in my book.
So looking at, you know,healthcare institutions.
Right, and what can be done there.
Yes.
I definitely talk about that.
But then I also talk aboutthis kind of like this biblical understanding
(31:09):
of justice, which is really powerful.
And this is, is very much inline with this womanist understanding
of justice.
It understands justice to becentered in the fidelity to the demands
of relationship.
Right, right.
(31:30):
Our faithfulness to thedemands of our relationship with
one another, with environment,with creation.
Right.
Because I mean, my goodness,if we don't start taking care of
this very earth that supportsus in so many ways and nourishes
us, we are all truly, truly in trouble.
(31:53):
But also the relationship to,to God.
And, and so, so in that, youknow, I talk about how it is.
So it's important for us to,to definitely think about being and
doing, you know, what kind ofpersons do we want to be?
(32:15):
You know, how do we want to be?
How do we want to show up foreach other every day?
Yeah, I love that.
I love to give my audienceactionable steps because this problem
you've laid out is an enormous problem.
But we need to figure out waysto begin to dismantle some of the
hindrances that are there.
(32:36):
So as you think about whatyou've, what you're working on here,
what are some of, some of thestructures we can dismantle that
cause some of the systemicproblems that we see in the healthcare
system?
Right.
So, so there are certain,there are several things actually
that, that can be done atvarious levels.
And so one of the things atthe level of, you know, kind of institutions,
(33:00):
medical facilities, you know,what can hospitals do, for instance?
First and foremost, we allneed a truth telling.
Right?
I mean, let's just be realbecause until we are honest about
what has happened in ourhistory and then how we are seeing
(33:21):
reverberations of that and,and iterations of that, because we
are really like in thishistorical moment in this nation,
we are seeing iterations ofthe implicit bias and racism and
all of that and how it reallypervades so much of our lives and
our institutions.
(33:41):
Right.
And so we need truth tellingand we need to own up to who we are
as a nation.
Because sometimes, I know it'svery easy for people to say, oh,
no, no, no.
They look at kind of racistpolicies and, and practices.
Oh, well, that's not who we are.
(34:02):
No, I know that's who we are.
Let's be real, let's tell thetruth about who we are.
And just because that is thetruth of who we are, it's part of
that truth of who we are, itdoesn't mean that's who we have to.
That we.
We have.
But to be a prisoner of thatand stay in that prison of, of that,
you know, past.
No, we can, we can actually,like you said, break free.
(34:25):
We can take steps to, to dismantle.
And it takes that.
It takes imagination to do that.
Right?
We have to.
And that's where our.
I call them artists astheologians, artists as prophets.
Right?
So.
So one really support our, Ourartists support those.
There are so many young people who.
(34:45):
They're.
They're using their talents,their voices, their bodies, whether
they're sculptures orpainters, to protest the health disparities
and racism and things thatthey see around them.
And so just being able tosupport them.
I really try to support ouryoung people because art truly is
(35:09):
a way, one of keeping people sane.
Right?
And it allows us to expressourselves, but it also allows us
to open our minds and imagineanother world and another way of
being.
And that's significant.
(35:30):
But then also holding our, ourhealthcare institutions accountable.
Because one of the things thathealthcare institutions can do is
they can have universalscreenings for social determinants
of health.
So when, when I go into.
I love going into my doctor'soffice, my primary care provider,
(35:51):
right, for my little annualcheckups, make sure everything's
okay.
And so on the intake form,they ask me these questions about,
do you have trouble with, didyou have trouble with transportation,
with getting here?
Do you continually havetransportation issues?
Were you able to eat a good meal?
(36:12):
Do you have trouble feedingyourself and your family?
And I was like, okay, go.
This is good, because that'swhat we need, right?
We need facilities to comealongside and partner with, with
community institutions,community organizations who can help
(36:32):
folk with food insecurity andwith, you know, transportation issues.
You know, all these socialdeterminants of health things that.
Because it's not just, youknow, going to the.
Just going to the doctor.
I wish that were the onlything that would keep us healthy.
Right?
But.
But no, it's not.
It is the doctor.
It is things going on in ourenvironment, in our communities.
(36:54):
It's access, right?
So.
So yes, so health careinstitutions helping to, you know,
refer.
When you find out that thereare some issues with transportation
or food insecurity, you canhave referrals available of.
Okay, well, this is where youcan go in the community and get help
for this and even mentalhealth, right?
(37:15):
One of the things that Iappreciate that's going on at the
church that I'm attendinghere, it's really a blessing.
We're trying to get a mentalhealth and mental wellness Ministry
up and running.
Because a lot of times in thechurch, there are a lot of things
that are taboo and that wedon't like to talk about, but mental
(37:36):
health, particularly in anAfrican American community, is something
that has been taboo.
And so we're trying to addressthat and talk about it in the pulpit,
talk about it out of thepulpit, have workshops, things like
that, so that people can start understanding.
Oh, okay.
(37:57):
So, yeah, that's something Ican talk about and then not be ashamed
to get help for.
And, you know, and includingthe moral wisdom that that is in
our communities that comesfrom, like, midwives and doulas.
So there are things that faithcommunities and just regular folk
(38:21):
can do to support our midwivesand birthing doulas, because these
are.
These are folk who aresupporting the thriving of babies
and mamas, right?
And so.
So there's just so much thatwe can do to really.
To really address this crisis.
(38:41):
And also lastly, listening toblack women, listening to women of
color, listen to.
To women, women in general,when they tell you something's wrong
with their.
Their body or they feelsomething off, just taking it seriously,
right?
That's one of the.
The Centers for DiseaseControl and Prevention, the cdc,
(39:02):
they actually had a campaigncalled Hear her, the national campaign.
And the reason why they hadthat campaign is because folk are
not taking women seriously.
Right?
And so.
So that's a big thing that wecan do is just take women seriously
and listen.
Yeah, listen to them.
Yeah, believe and believe them.
I love that.
That was very helpful.
(39:23):
Now I'm going to ask you a fun question.
All right?
Now, I love fun questions.
So if you had a.
Hospitals, churches andcommunities all got together in a
room to discuss human healthcare reform, who's getting into argument
first?
Let me tell you.
Oh, my goodness.
I would say, because I know wetalked about.
(39:47):
We had hospitals, communities, right?
And churches.
Let me tell you, I.
I think who would get into theargument first?
I think it would be thecommunity, with the community itself,
right?
Because what we.
What we.
What we sometimes forget isjust in the community, there are
(40:10):
so many differentunderstandings about what we owe
one another, right?
So some people don't thinkthey owe their neighbor anything,
you know, And.
And so some folk.
And so then not only thatabout what we owe one another, but
then just.
(40:31):
Just this notion of agreeingon what is right, what is good.
You know what I'm saying?
So some people would say, oh,my goodness, we need universal healthcare.
Other people would, no, no,no, no, that's not right.
Nor is that good.
Right.
No, everybody shouldn't have aright to that.
(40:52):
You know, I mean, just all thefights right there.
So just in the community, noteven getting to the level of community,
arguing with church, communityarguing with hospital, but just in
the community itself.
Right?
Yeah.
I think it's interestingbecause as I've served in underserved
communities, you just hit on a point.
(41:15):
It's like, where do we even start?
Is the starting point.
Better health care is thestarting point.
Better food options is thestarting place?
Security when you throw theirchurches in, now that the churches.
Unfortunately, I know myexperience as a pastor, we have abdicated
(41:36):
the care for the community tothe government.
We can't even really get anargument and say, well, here's what
we can provide, because wedon't provide a whole lot.
Besides, our food pantriesopen once every two weeks.
So you kind of hope as achurch that they don't look at you
and go, why aren't you doing more?
So you kind of stay in theback and just be quiet.
(41:57):
It's like pointing somebody else.
You kind of.
So, yeah, it's a fascinatingconversation as to what does the
community.
Because so much has been takenfrom so many of those communities.
I mean, I just.
When I was in Chicago, whenthey started closing down, like the
Walgreens and the blackcommunity, and you had to go, you
know, 20 miles to go get yourprescriptions filled.
(42:21):
Right.
But it closed down becausethere was crime in the Walgreens,
and people kept breaking inand stealing it.
So it's like there's so manypieces to that conversation that
we don't even get to.
Yeah, no, you're right.
It's a lot of pieces to that.
And.
And I want to go back to whatyou were saying about with the churches.
(42:43):
Right.
Kind of almost abdicatingthat, the responsibilities of care
to the community.
And.
And here's what's so powerfulabout that.
What's really powerful is thatwe have such a strong legacy of care,
particularly in the black church.
So.
So.
So we need to come back home, right?
We.
We.
We especially now in this timewhere we are now under an administration
(43:09):
that is, you know, making somany cuts and, you know, so many
changes that really will putpeople in a position of, my goodness,
the only places they're goingto have to turn to will be these
community.
These faith communities andthe smaller community organizations
(43:30):
that.
That still have enough funding.
Right.
Because with funding cuts, youknow, a lot of things are being.
Are being in j.
Are in jeopardy now of existence.
A lot of these caring Kinds of organizations.
So, so my.
I would say my clarion call,particularly for African American
(43:52):
churches, is to come back tothat legacy of care.
Because just like, you know,what we're doing at my church to.
To really try to.
To get this ministry, youknow, health care and.
And health.
Health and wellness ministries going.
We have got to do that becausewe are our answer, right?
(44:17):
We are all we've got.
I mean, let's be real.
We have all we are all we've got.
So.
So we really do need to.
To.
To.
To get back to thosestrategies, because black churches
helped to build the first.
Some of the first blackhospitals when.
When black folk were lockedout of the public health care system.
(44:38):
Right?
Locked out of those systemsbecause of segregation.
It was black church.
Those black church mothers,you know, raising that money, you
know, some of them.
And some of them even startednursing schools and.
And black medical schools because.
Because not only were lockedout of hospitals, we were also locked
out of the training facilitiesand the.
(45:00):
The medical schools andnursing schools.
So.
So.
So that's why I want peoplereally to, you know, dig.
Just dig in a little bit.
Dig into that history of.
Of black churches and thisreally beautiful, powerful legacy
of care.
And I have it in my book.
You can.
You can.
You can dig in there.
(45:20):
It'll be a good start for youto dig in there because.
Because I know.
I know we can do it.
If.
If we built.
If.
If we built institutions like,you know, now what is Tuskegee University,
you know, built from a personliterally formerly enslaved.
I mean, come on now.
(45:40):
Right?
And all.
All that he had to work within building that institution were
other formerly enslavedpersons, which meant they had pennies,
and probably not even pennies.
Right?
And so, so, so, so if.
If we could literally buildinstitutions with nothing, all the
(46:03):
money and education andgiftedness that.
That we have among us now in.
In the black church and inAfrican American communities, I.
I tell you, we have no excuse,you know?
Right?
We know we have no excuse.
We.
We can.
We can build a.
We can build on a phenomenallegacy of care.
Yeah.
(46:23):
Amen.
So I gotta ask you thisquestion, looking forward, what impact
do you hope the woman is.
Bioethics will have on thefield of bioethics and human and
healthcare as a whole?
Yes.
So my, My.
My hope is that it'll haveimpacted at several levels.
(46:47):
The first level is.
I'm hoping it has impact.
Just added like a individual level.
Because one thing that peoplewho are in caring professions, whether
they are pastors or doctors,nurses, when you're in a caring profession,
you realize that you are trulya wounded healer, right?
(47:10):
Many times we're trying toheal for help, help other folk heal.
But, shoot, we hobbling aroundwith our own pains, hobbling around
with our own past, you know,hurts, past trauma that still haunts
us every day.
And so we ourselves needhealing as we are working for the
(47:34):
care and in.
In terms of health care, cureof others, and as we are journeying
with others on their path tohealing, we ourselves need that.
And so.
So my.
My absolute hope is that we dothe both.
And we are.
We are working for justice,working for the thriving of our communities
(48:00):
and thriving and flourishingof others as we also attend to the
healing that needs to go on inour own lives.
And.
And I'm gonna tell you, I'vereally been trying to be more intentional
about that.
So I've been waking up andI've been saying, all right, you
know, like, there's.
There's several things that Iwant to just think about.
(48:22):
First thing first, how do Iwant to show up in this world today?
Before I step foot out of thishouse, I need to figure out what.
And what way do I want to show up?
1.
I know I want to be a healing presence.
I know I want to embody love.
I know, you know, like, thereare certain things.
And so in order to do that,then that means I need to be, you
(48:43):
know, I need to be showing upmy prayer life.
I need to be meditating on,you know, what is love?
It's honoring others.
It's, you know, having mercy.
It's having compassion.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, what is it practically?
So.
So that's what I'm hoping isthat we do these, like, practical
things every day in our own life.
(49:06):
That doesn't take much.
You know, it just takes alittle bit of us thinking through.
Yeah.
What I.
Yeah.
How do I want to be today?
This being right.
In addition to the doing.
But.
But I also think that then wealso need to, at the broader level,
hold our institutions accountable.
(49:27):
So, like our churches, right.
We need to be honest in thechurch about how we neglect.
We neglect a lot of issues.
We don't just neglect mental health.
We neglect issues likepregnancy, birth.
You know, like, we.
We don't really.
We don't talk about how is itthat we can be.
(49:48):
We can facilitate the thrivingin the health of mothers, of pregnant
women in our congregations,you know, beyond.
Beyond getting in fightsbecause we get in so many religious
fights over.
And I'm not saying it's notimportant, but we get in fights over
politicized issues.
(50:09):
But sometimes that also cancompromise our actions on behalf
of the flourishing of humanbeings right there in our congregations
and in our broader community.
Right?
And so I think that is soimportant to hold ourselves accountable
for bad theology.
(50:30):
Like, let's not pretend thatdoesn't exist, right?
Bad theology that, that saysit's okay to keep, you know, certain
people subjugated, right?
Like if it's some, something,some theology, say, oh, women, you
know, should be subjugated,you know, so, so yeah, we really
need to, we need to just startbeing honest with ourselves and holding
(50:52):
ourselves accountable in ourfaith communities and then in our
healthcare system.
Right?
Holding clinicians accountableto not.
Well, to just be aware oftheir own implicit bias and be aware
of not, not say, oh, no, racism.
(51:13):
There's no racism here.
Well, wait, let's, let's,let's, let's first see, because public
health institutions in thisnation, right, in the cdc, these
institutions are clear thatracism is a root cause, right?
It is a root cause of healthdisparities, you know, and the suffering.
(51:37):
Because since enslavement, wehave normalized black suffering and
black misery in this country.
We've normalized it.
Yeah, it's powerful.
Before we close this out andit's been a great conversation, I
love to ask my guest thisother question.
It's a tail end of the first question.
What do you want your legacyto be?
(52:00):
Wow, that's a beautiful.
Oh, that's a beautiful question.
I would say, honestly, firstthing that comes to my mind, love.
And, and, and I know, youknow, people, there's so much kind
of almost negative thingsattached to love, right?
Because people like, ah,people abuse folk and they say that
(52:22):
it's love, you know, and, andlove is, you know, superficial and
all this in the minds of, of,of a lot of folk.
But I mean, absolutely tryingto live into what it means to actually
(52:44):
embrace one another as, youknow, how when you have someone that
you're in a relationship with, right.
Particularly at the verybeginnings when you just, oh, you
can't take your eyes off the person.
You're just staring into oneanother's eyes.
That's what I want people todo with one another and with communities
and with folk who aredifferent from them.
(53:06):
If we can fall in love witheach other, right.
In a way that says, you matterso much to me that I want to ensure
that you have the best of whatlife has to offer.
You have the best of healthcare, you have the best of, of just
what it takes for you tothrive as a human being.
(53:31):
My God.
I want, I, I really do want that.
I want us to love each otherso much that even if we don't disagree
with each other, that we canstill say, but you know what?
I love you.
We're going to get through this.
We're going to work through this.
I'm going to find out how, howI can still help you and still, you
(53:53):
know, we still be inrelationship with one another that
allows you to flourish andthat I'm not.
Just because I don't agreewith you, you know, ideologically
and just because we don't havethe same politics that.
Oh, I just can't talk to you.
Oh, you.
Oh, I just, you know, I reallywant that for, for, for, for people,
(54:16):
for all of us to, to practicethis thing called love, you know.
Yeah.
In a real way.
That's powerful.
Where can listeners find yourbook Women is by ethics and connect
with you on social media?
Fantastic.
Yes, you can find the book, ofcourse on Amazon, but also on barnes
and noble.com that bookseller,but then also on my website, y lyndwilson.com
(54:46):
and when you go to my website,you also see other resources there
that you know, to deal with,you know, mental health and, and
health and well being as well,of minoritized communities.
So those are a few ways.
I'm also on Instagram and onLinkedIn as well.
(55:07):
Oh, wy.
Lynn D.
Wilson.
Well, Wylan, thank you so muchfor providing such great conversation
and context and we dug deepinto a really important topic.
So thank you for your time andbeing an awesome guest on my podcast.
Thank you for having me.
I just, I'm so grateful.
My guest today, Dr.
Wylan D.
Wilson is Assistant professorof Theological Ethics at Duke Divinity
School where she teacheswithin the Theology, Medicine and
Cultural Initiative.
Her teaching and research atthe intersection of bioethics, gender
and theology.
She is a former teachingfaculty at Harvard Medical School
Business for Bioethics.
(01:20):
She serves as a Senior Fellowat the Harvard Divinity School center
for World Religions andvisiting lector at Harvard Divinity
School of Women's Studies andReligion Programming.
She is also former AssistantDirector of Education at Fort Tuskegee
University national center forBioethics and Research and Health
Care, and former facultymember at Tuskegee University College
(01:41):
of Agriculture, Environmentand Nutrition Science.
She is currently PrincipalInvestigator for the Bioethics and
Black Church Addressing RacialInequities and Black Women's Health
in North Carolina ResearchProject, which examines the potential
of the Black church as aresource for addressing the Black
maternal health Crisis in the U.S.
(02:03):
Dr.
Wilson earned her Ph.D.
in Religion, Ethics andSociety from Emory University.
Her Ms.
Is in Agricultural Resourcesand Managerial Economics from Cornell
University and our MDIBInterdenominational Theological Center.
She is a member of Society forthe Study of Black Religion, the
American Society for Bioethicsand Humanities, the American Academy
(02:26):
of Religion, and the centerfor Reconciliation Advisory Board
at duke Divinity School.
Dr.
Wilson's publications includethis Is My Body, Faith Communities
as Sites for TransfiguredVulnerabilities and Bioenhancement
and A Vulnerable Body ATheological Engagement from Baylor.
Her first book, EconomicEthics and the Black Church, and
(02:49):
her second book, WomanistBioethics, Social Justice, Spirituality
and the Black Woman's Health,is forthcoming.
We welcome her to the podcast.
Well, Dr.
Wilson, welcome to the podcast.
How you doing today?
I am fantastic.
Thank you.
Wonderful to be here.
Well, we should have aphenomenal and engaging conversation.
(03:10):
I'm looking forward to this.
This is an important topic aswe try to add context and more information
to people's lives and always bring.
I'd like to bring value to myaudience, so I'm looking forward
to what we're going to talk about.
But before we jump into allthat fun stuff, my favorite question
I like to ask all my guestsis, what's the best piece of advice
you've ever received?
(03:31):
Oh, yeah, I'll say from my father.
Oh my gosh, I love my dad so much.
Nobody's perfect, right?
Right.
But my dad.
My dad did a beautiful job ofjust being.
Just being an amazing person.
Right.
And a.
And a humane human being.
(03:51):
And he taught us how to treatpeople and as long with my mom.
But, but the advice that mydad gave me, though, it was right
before I got married.
And he told me.
He said, listen, he said, Ineed you to please don't assume that
that man can read your mind.
(04:13):
Yeah.
He said.
He said, whatever you need,please let him know what you.
He said.
Just verbalize it.
Don't.
Don't sit there and be angrysaying, oh, well, he didn't.
He didn't do this for me or.
He didn't give me this.
He knows I like this.
He said, no, no, no.
No man can read a woman's mind.
Just be upfront, be honest.
Let him know what you need.
(04:35):
And so that.
That I can actually say thathas blessed my marriage because.
And.
And now.
And you have to.
You have to, you know,communicate in a way that is loving,
too.
Right?
Like, you need.
You know, sometimes people cantake that and go all the way to the
other end.
Hey, I need this, you know, so.
So the whole.
The way we communicate also,compassionately, lovingly, also is.
(04:59):
Is important.
And I've learned that through Mar.
But, yeah, but don't assumethat a person can read your mind.
I know that.
That is so true.
I mean, we hope they can readour mind, but we know that's not
really true.
I actually test wife all the time.
I was like, can you tell whatI'm thinking?
She's like, no, I don't wantto guess what you're thinking.
So.
(05:21):
Exactly.
I'm better off not knowingwhat is going on right now.
You know what?
That is a wonderful thing thatyou have.
And, you know.
Yeah, that's right.
That's real.
It's so real out there.
Tell us, like, if you couldjust spend five minutes in my mind,
you would know so much moreabout me.
(05:45):
I'm always.
I've always curious.
Dr.
Wilson, who are some people inyour life who served as mentors on
your journey?
Yeah.
Oh, my goodness.
The first person that popsinto my head anytime anyone asks
me about a mentor, peoplestart talking about mentors would
have to be Ralph Christie.
(06:06):
He was my mentor in graduateschool when I was.
This was when I was doing mymaster's at Cornell University.
And let me tell you, Ralph wasjust an amazing mentor, amazing blessing
to my life.
He was someone who.
He saw me as a whole person,not just as a student who he was
(06:28):
going to be able to getpublications out of, or, you know,
like, he did not.
Because, I mean, let's be real.
Some people do see, they.
They see the opportunity in aperson instead of the opportunity
for them in a person.
Right.
Instead of the.
That.
That person as a whole person.
And.
And he impacted my life as amentor because he saw me as a whole
(06:52):
person and he was concernedabout my professional development,
but also my spiritual development.
And he really listened andunderstood kind of where I was as
a student, because I was in afield that I did love.
(07:13):
I loved, you know, looking atagricultural economics.
It was beautiful.
But.
But then after my master's, Ididn't want to do that beyond the
master's level, and herealized that, and he helped me to
see, okay, so what could be agood next move for you, you know,
(07:36):
what could work for you.
And so he is a part of a lotof things that he taught me is a
part of why I mentor studentsthe way I do, you know, trying to.
To see them as whole persons,being compassionate and.
And giving and giving.
Of.
Giving fully of yourself onbehalf of another.
(07:57):
That's.
Yeah.
So.
Ralph Heck.
Yeah, that's.
That's the one.
And the second one, of course, Alton.
Dr.
Alton Pollard, he was mymentor for my PhD, and this was when
I was at emory University.
And Dr.
Pollard, again, just aphenomenal human being.
(08:18):
And he had so much just lovelike that, that.
The love that he has forpeople, for the church, you know,
I mean, oh, my gosh, I.
I just am super grateful for.
For the two of them andbecause they have truly shaped me
and helped shape me even as a scholar.
(08:38):
Yeah, that's so cool.
I love how people can pourinto our lives and have such impact.
It's always kind of my dreamis that I can.
People can look back at me andsay I was there to help them along
their journey.
Not necessarily to, likesomebody, like you said, take credit
for their work, but just tokind of help bring out the work that
God has placed on their heartand the abilities and the talents
that God has tapped into themand want to kind of help them unpack
(09:01):
all of that.
So that's really amazing.
Yes.
I want to get into what youtalk about, but I want to help you
define some terms first,because as we get into this conversation,
it's always helpful, I think,to define terms.
So first I want you to kind ofdefine for us what is womanist theology?
Ah, yes, yes, yes.
So womanist theology is notjust a theoretical framework, but
(09:24):
a really important part of it.
It's also a social change framework.
Right.
And it is really.
It's a response to the waythat mainstream American theology,
Western theology, neglectedcertain voices and experiences of
(09:47):
particularly minoritizedindividuals and minoritized Women.
Right.
Particularly.
So the foremothers of womanisttheology were actually students of
James Cone.
Right.
So these were students of, aswe say, the father of black theology.
(10:10):
Right.
So students of James Cone.
These women were saying, hey,wait a minute.
You know, black theology isreally focusing on the black male
experience, and it's notpicking up the experience of black
women, which really looks, youknow, it's layered.
It's class, gender and race.
(10:33):
Right.
And so those women really andtruly focused on, okay, we need a
more inclusive theology thatcan actually, you know, look at the
experience, bring into theconversation the experience of black
and other women, women of color.
(10:54):
So.
So it expands the conversationin theology to include more experiences.
Yes.
Good.
Now, also, I know people mayhave heard of black liberation theology,
but also kind of give us agood working definition of how you
use that term.
Yeah.
So black liberation theology,again, another response to how Western
(11:17):
mainstream American neglectedthese voices and experiences.
Right.
And so black liberationtheology actually made the case that
God is on the side of raciallyand economically subjugated people.
So.
(11:37):
So that was very important.
Black liberation theology, Ireally believe, was such a powerful
force because at a time whenAfrican Americans at every turn were
being told that they.
They couldn't.
Because they were black.
(11:57):
Right.
They couldn't be served herebecause they were black.
They couldn't get the care ina hospital.
Right.
Because even our hospitalswere segregated in this country up
until, like, 1963, 64.
And, you know, hospitals were segregated.
So seeing black folksliterally die because they couldn't
(12:18):
get care just because of theirrace, that's wild.
Right.
And so at this horrible timein our history, we needed black theologians
to be able to.
To give us that hope that,yeah, God is not a white racist.
Right.
Like, that was one of the texts.
(12:38):
Right.
That.
That was a.
One of the classic texts atthat time.
But.
But yeah, to.
To say to black fol.
God truly is on the side ofracially and economically subjugated
people of color.
For sure.
Thank you for doing that.
Sometimes when we hear theword theology, especially those of
(13:00):
us in the church, weimmediately go to how to make sure
that we aren't being hereticalin our understanding and belief.
So I just wanted you to kindof explain that for the context of
when we talk about thetheology behind things.
So thank you.
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I appreciate it.
Yes, yes.
(13:21):
So let's tie those two things in.
So tell me why you have thisstrong desire and your work is so
focused on this for a womanistapproach to bioethics and how does
your background influence whatyou're focusing on right now?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, for sure.
So let me start.
(13:42):
Let me start with mybackground, because I think that'll
help.
So I was born just 10 yearsafter the desegregation of hospitals,
right?
So, so here I am, you know,coming into this world where many
of my folk in my family, blackfolk in my community and in my church.
(14:08):
I was raised in an AfricanAmerican black Baptist church in
the south.
Right.
In the rural South.
That, that church, that churchrules out.
And, and I just rememberhearing horror story, horror stories
about black folks interaction,you know, with the health care system
in this nation.
(14:30):
Right.
And.
And that was one of the thingsthat really impacted me, you know,
and, and I kept hearing it, right?
Like, it wasn't just in mychildhood, but I was like, my goodness.
So then through the 80s, thenthe 90s, and now in the 21st century,
why am I still hearing horror stories?
Right?
(14:51):
So that's one thing thatreally impacted me.
But then another thing also isas I got older and then started working,
particularly in the, the ruralsouthern black belt in Alabama, you
know, working with churches inthat area, I was able to see a little
(15:14):
bit clearer because I saw it abit, you know, growing up, but I
could see it very clearly inthe black belt in Alabama.
Many, you know, many of theproblems that African Americans were
having to deal with when itcame to health disparities, right.
And access to health care,particularly in rural areas, because
(15:36):
many of the women have totravel a one hour or more just to
deliver their child.
Right.
And the hospitals that are inrural areas, when the budget gets
tight, the first thing to go,of course, the obstetrical ward,
right.
And maternal mortality ishigher in these rural areas.
(15:57):
And a lot of those ruralhospitals are the economic drivers
in rural areas, Right.
And so with, with theclosings, the amount of closings
that we've had in ruralhospitals through the years, we've
had more than 135 ruralhospital closings since 2010.
(16:18):
Right.
And almost 20 of those were in 2020.
Wow.
Yeah.
And rural hospitals are 35% ofall hospitals in this nation.
So this.
So that is not a small thing,you know, and so, so when I, when
I had a chance to see that,you know, really clearly, that also
(16:39):
really drove home to me howimportant bioethics is, but particularly
womanist bioethics for me issomething that, that I had to, to
create, because bioethics as afield, it was very much focused on
(17:01):
white, like European andEuropean male American male experiences.
And so there again, you, youknow, leave neglected the experiences
of black folk, you know,Latino folk, you know, Asian American.
It just, you know, and so, anddefinitely women.
(17:21):
So, so that's why this wholenotion of womanist bioethics was
important.
Because womanism, one reallyimportant thing about womanism, it
only has a starting point.
With African American andwomen of color's experience, that's
just a starting point.
But the goal of it is thehealing, thriving, the flourishing
(17:44):
of all of humanity.
So no matter if you're black,white, you know, all folk, Latino,
you know, so.
So that's what's important about.
And that's why the frameworkof womanist bioethics is so important,
because of how inclusive it is.
I love that.
So tell us about your book.
(18:05):
You have a new book that'scoming out, Womanist Bioethics.
Tell us a little bit aboutthat, the framework.
What led you to write that book?
I know you kind of gave us alittle bit of the backdrop, but tell
us, dig us deeper into that book.
Yeah, so that book came aboutbecause, you know, here I am looking
at the black women's healthcrisis in this nation, right?
(18:26):
Black women, half of Blackwomen age 20 or older actually have
hypertension.
Heart disease is leading causeof death for them.
They're more likely than whitewomen to be diagnosed with diabetes.
They're understudied inhealthcare, underserved, and two
(18:48):
to four times more likely thanwhite women to die from pregnancy
related complications.
And so that, you know, lookingat those, you know, health disparities
is, is important because thesedisparities are not attributed to
(19:09):
just, you know, biologicalproblems or the fact that, you know,
it's not, not behavioraldifferences, you know, only, but
it really is the historicaland pervasive devaluation of minoritized
bodies, right?
That is the point there.
And so looking at that,looking at those statistics, it was
(19:34):
important for me to actuallyopen a space for conversation about
how race, gender, health andspirituality, all of these are important
considerations in dealingwith, with health disparities.
And what's important also isthat, so bioethics as a field.
(19:58):
Because I know people might besaying, okay, but why bioethics?
Well, because as the field,bioethics has so much to do with
the doctor patientrelationship, right?
It has principles for that,the research and all of that.
So it weighs in on that, thatconversation, actually conversations
(20:22):
about policies around, youknow, health care, beginning of life,
end of life.
You see what I'm saying?
So, and then how funds aredistributed for biomedical research
and who is involved in that research.
Right, so, so see, so, sobioethics has to do with all that.
(20:43):
And so that's why it wasimportant to, to really look and
say, okay, wait a minute.
This conversation going on.
Bioethics needs to expand toinclude more voices and more experiences,
particularly of minoritizedpopulations in this country.
I love that.
So you gave us a wide overviewof what your book addresses.
(21:07):
But you make the argument inyour book that mainstream bioethics
really privileges particularlywhite male perspectives.
Can you share an example forthe audience so they can kind of
drill down on this, of howthis exclusively impacts the health
care outcomes of say, black women?
And you kind of touched onsome of that.
But you know, maybe a moreconcrete example will kind of really
(21:29):
bring home your point.
Yes, yes.
So I have so many examplesgoing through my heads.
I'm like, okay, wait, justpull one while they put one.
So I'll tell you.
Well, okay, let's just do two.
One is with incarcerated blackwomen, we often, we talk about vulnerable
(21:54):
populations.
We often really do forgetabout our incarcerated brothers and
sisters and siblings.
Right.
Folks who are incarcerated,you know, we, they need care too.
Right?
We don't just throw peopleaway just because they become incarcerated.
And as a matter of fact,particularly when you look at incarceration
(22:14):
of women, a lot of women endup in the carceral system because
they were in a relationshipwhere it was intimate partner violence.
Right.
So there might have beendomestic violence in the home and
this woman may have beendefending herself, ends up, you know,
fatally harming the spouse orthe boyfriend and boom, you know,
(22:38):
incarcerated.
So, so when we look atincarcerated women, particularly
black women, there are severalthings that, that we need to look
at.
One, there are laws that arenot really being heeded like across
the board.
(22:58):
So the law that has to do withnot shackling people during pregnancy,
particularly during delivery.
Right.
But also not putting pregnantwomen in handcuffs when they are
arrested because of course isharm of falling and all that.
And so the law itself is notapplied across the board the way
(23:23):
it should be.
Some folk don't even knowabout, you know, those laws in their
existence.
And, and they keep coming upthese reports of how this law is
being violated.
Right.
In, in many places, in many instances.
So that is one thing.
But also there's a story in mybook of Robbie hall, and she's a
(23:45):
58 year old grandmother, youknow, and I tell her story in the
book she's incarcerated.
And, and that, and the way Itell the story is so that you can
See the.
The economic injustice that'sgoing on in the carceral system because
people are working for penniesbecause legally they can do that.
Right, sure.
So many of our laws are deeplyembedded in these laws from the,
(24:06):
you know, 19th century.
Right.
And.
And so people.
Then the carceral system canget away with offering slave wages
to.
To workers in.
In prison factories.
So.
So I'm telling these storiesand story about how.
Then she gets sick.
(24:26):
Right.
And so, so there's just layersof looking at the kind of care that.
That does or does not happen,you know, in that case, and how.
How these women are very muchvulnerable in the health care system,
particularly minoritizedwomen, underserved, understudied,
(24:50):
you know, and really and trulybearing the burden of health disparities.
Wow, that's really helpful tokind of bring some basis to the story.
We hear so many things and wego, huh, that's just not happening.
But to actually hear thosestories kind of brings home and concretizes
what we're talking about.
(25:10):
That's right.
I'm curious.
This is really important workyou're doing.
Who are some folks out therethat are doing good works on these,
on this issue?
Yes, yes, yes.
Black Mamas Matters allianceis phenomenal organization.
My goodness, they have blessedme in my work because they use actually
(25:32):
a womanist framework in howthey structure what they do.
Right.
And so.
So they attack the issue ofblack maternal mortality from the
policy level.
They attack it from faith, youknow, spiritual level of spirituality,
(25:57):
the academy, you know.
So they have this.
And that's why I love theorganization, because of the way
they do what they.
Trying to bring folk fromthese various sectors together for
training.
Because I've actually attendedsome of their conferences because
they do training so that wecan become more aware of the black
(26:22):
maternal mortality rates,infant mortality.
So we become aware, but thenalso become empowered and equipped
to address these issues.
And so, yeah, I do appreciatewhat they do because their philosophy
is definitely in line with how.
With how I.
(26:42):
How I believe that we shouldall be operating.
I just had at the beginning of this.
This year, I had a blackmaternal health and black church
forum here in Durham, NorthCarolina, and it was really powerful.
We brought in pastors, youknow, church members, but then also
(27:03):
gynecologists, obstetricians.
We had folk in public health.
We have midwives, doulas.
I'm telling you, I just.
I wanted everybody at thetable, right.
Because if we really areserious about addressing health disparities,
it takes all of us, you Know,and, and so at that forum we had
(27:24):
different panels and, and oneof folks favorite panels was the
panel where it was just black men.
We raised the voices of blackmen because, just saying, maternal
mortality, right.
We actually just isolate justthe woman.
Right.
But that woman is embedded,deeply embedded in a communal structure,
(27:50):
in a familial structure.
Right.
And so, so, so really raisingup the voices of those who can actually
support women during this,during pregnancy and after.
And so, so having a panel toaddress how is it that African American
(28:10):
men can, can support black women.
And it was all brothers.
All the, the brothers came andspoke and it was just actually a
blessing and to, because, tohear also what their experience is
and trying to support, youknow, and so, so that is, that's
important.
(28:30):
Yeah, yeah.
That's amazing.
You know, your work is deeplyrooted in the black Christian tradition.
How do theological ethics andbioethics intersect as you try and
address the systemic healthcrisis and disparities in our country?
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
(28:51):
So theological ethics andbioethics intersect.
It's a funny thing becausethey intersect really at the inception
of bioethics.
Because, because bioethics, Iwould tell you, if we look at the
origin story of how bioethicscame about, you know, as a field,
(29:13):
like how it was shaped as afield, it was shaped by a lot of
folks who were theologiansthat they were all, you know, particularly
white males.
Right, right.
But theology, these, thesewere theologians and, and they were
folk who were Christian ethicists.
So, so, so, so the, therelationship between the two is very
(29:37):
intimate, you know, from thevery origins of the field itself.
And, and that's what's so, so important.
So, so me opening thisconversation about ext.
Expanding bioethics beyondjust one singular voice, one singular
(29:59):
perspective, that conversationis, is really, really important because
I'm actually asking bioethics,you know, come back home, you know
what I'm saying?
So come back to who, to who,who you are, who you've been, you
know, always having this,this, this conversation.
(30:22):
Right.
With the significance of ourfaith and our faith life and how
that does have implications.
It has implications, as we allknow, with policy.
Because we've seen the fights.
We've seen the policy fights.
Right, but, but in my book,what's really important is.
I am, am also saying, though.
(30:44):
But it has implications alsofor us as, as, as, as individuals.
Because, yes, we have to lookat the institutional level, and I
do talk about that in my book.
So looking at, you know,healthcare institutions.
Right, and what can be done there.
Yes.
I definitely talk about that.
But then I also talk aboutthis kind of like this biblical understanding
(31:09):
of justice, which is really powerful.
And this is, is very much inline with this womanist understanding
of justice.
It understands justice to becentered in the fidelity to the demands
of relationship.
Right, right.
(31:30):
Our faithfulness to thedemands of our relationship with
one another, with environment,with creation.
Right.
Because I mean, my goodness,if we don't start taking care of
this very earth that supportsus in so many ways and nourishes
us, we are all truly, truly in trouble.
(31:53):
But also the relationship to,to God.
And, and so, so in that, youknow, I talk about how it is.
So it's important for us to,to definitely think about being and
doing, you know, what kind ofpersons do we want to be?
(32:15):
You know, how do we want to be?
How do we want to show up foreach other every day?
Yeah, I love that.
I love to give my audienceactionable steps because this problem
you've laid out is an enormous problem.
But we need to figure out waysto begin to dismantle some of the
hindrances that are there.
(32:36):
So as you think about whatyou've, what you're working on here,
what are some of, some of thestructures we can dismantle that
cause some of the systemicproblems that we see in the healthcare
system?
Right.
So, so there are certain,there are several things actually
that, that can be done atvarious levels.
And so one of the things atthe level of, you know, kind of institutions,
(33:00):
medical facilities, you know,what can hospitals do, for instance?
First and foremost, we allneed a truth telling.
Right?
I mean, let's just be realbecause until we are honest about
what has happened in ourhistory and then how we are seeing
(33:21):
reverberations of that and,and iterations of that, because we
are really like in thishistorical moment in this nation,
we are seeing iterations ofthe implicit bias and racism and
all of that and how it reallypervades so much of our lives and
our institutions.
(33:41):
Right.
And so we need truth tellingand we need to own up to who we are
as a nation.
Because sometimes, I know it'svery easy for people to say, oh,
no, no, no.
They look at kind of racistpolicies and, and practices.
Oh, well, that's not who we are.
(34:02):
No, I know that's who we are.
Let's be real, let's tell thetruth about who we are.
And just because that is thetruth of who we are, it's part of
that truth of who we are, itdoesn't mean that's who we have to.
That we.
We have.
But to be a prisoner of thatand stay in that prison of, of that,
you know, past.
No, we can, we can actually,like you said, break free.
(34:25):
We can take steps to, to dismantle.
And it takes that.
It takes imagination to do that.
Right?
We have to.
And that's where our.
I call them artists astheologians, artists as prophets.
Right?
So.
So one really support our, Ourartists support those.
There are so many young people who.
(34:45):
They're.
They're using their talents,their voices, their bodies, whether
they're sculptures orpainters, to protest the health disparities
and racism and things thatthey see around them.
And so just being able tosupport them.
I really try to support ouryoung people because art truly is
(35:09):
a way, one of keeping people sane.
Right?
And it allows us to expressourselves, but it also allows us
to open our minds and imagineanother world and another way of
being.
And that's significant.
(35:30):
But then also holding our, ourhealthcare institutions accountable.
Because one of the things thathealthcare institutions can do is
they can have universalscreenings for social determinants
of health.
So when, when I go into.
I love going into my doctor'soffice, my primary care provider,
(35:51):
right, for my little annualcheckups, make sure everything's
okay.
And so on the intake form,they ask me these questions about,
do you have trouble with, didyou have trouble with transportation,
with getting here?
Do you continually havetransportation issues?
Were you able to eat a good meal?
(36:12):
Do you have trouble feedingyourself and your family?
And I was like, okay, go.
This is good, because that'swhat we need, right?
We need facilities to comealongside and partner with, with
community institutions,community organizations who can help
(36:32):
folk with food insecurity andwith, you know, transportation issues.
You know, all these socialdeterminants of health things that.
Because it's not just, youknow, going to the.
Just going to the doctor.
I wish that were the onlything that would keep us healthy.
Right?
But.
But no, it's not.
It is the doctor.
It is things going on in ourenvironment, in our communities.
(36:54):
It's access, right?
So.
So yes, so health careinstitutions helping to, you know,
refer.
When you find out that thereare some issues with transportation
or food insecurity, you canhave referrals available of.
Okay, well, this is where youcan go in the community and get help
for this and even mentalhealth, right?
(37:15):
One of the things that Iappreciate that's going on at the
church that I'm attendinghere, it's really a blessing.
We're trying to get a mentalhealth and mental wellness Ministry
up and running.
Because a lot of times in thechurch, there are a lot of things
that are taboo and that wedon't like to talk about, but mental
(37:36):
health, particularly in anAfrican American community, is something
that has been taboo.
And so we're trying to addressthat and talk about it in the pulpit,
talk about it out of thepulpit, have workshops, things like
that, so that people can start understanding.
Oh, okay.
(37:57):
So, yeah, that's something Ican talk about and then not be ashamed
to get help for.
And, you know, and includingthe moral wisdom that that is in
our communities that comesfrom, like, midwives and doulas.
So there are things that faithcommunities and just regular folk
(38:21):
can do to support our midwivesand birthing doulas, because these
are.
These are folk who aresupporting the thriving of babies
and mamas, right?
And so.
So there's just so much thatwe can do to really.
To really address this crisis.
(38:41):
And also lastly, listening toblack women, listening to women of
color, listen to.
To women, women in general,when they tell you something's wrong
with their.
Their body or they feelsomething off, just taking it seriously,
right?
That's one of the.
The Centers for DiseaseControl and Prevention, the cdc,
(39:02):
they actually had a campaigncalled Hear her, the national campaign.
And the reason why they hadthat campaign is because folk are
not taking women seriously.
Right?
And so.
So that's a big thing that wecan do is just take women seriously
and listen.
Yeah, listen to them.
Yeah, believe and believe them.
I love that.
That was very helpful.
(39:23):
Now I'm going to ask you a fun question.
All right?
Now, I love fun questions.
So if you had a.
Hospitals, churches andcommunities all got together in a
room to discuss human healthcare reform, who's getting into argument
first?
Let me tell you.
Oh, my goodness.
I would say, because I know wetalked about.
(39:47):
We had hospitals, communities, right?
And churches.
Let me tell you, I.
I think who would get into theargument first?
I think it would be thecommunity, with the community itself,
right?
Because what we.
What we.
What we sometimes forget isjust in the community, there are
(40:10):
so many differentunderstandings about what we owe
one another, right?
So some people don't thinkthey owe their neighbor anything,
you know, And.
And so some folk.
And so then not only thatabout what we owe one another, but
then just.
(40:31):
Just this notion of agreeingon what is right, what is good.
You know what I'm saying?
So some people would say, oh,my goodness, we need universal healthcare.
Other people would, no, no,no, no, that's not right.
Nor is that good.
Right.
No, everybody shouldn't have aright to that.
(40:52):
You know, I mean, just all thefights right there.
So just in the community, noteven getting to the level of community,
arguing with church, communityarguing with hospital, but just in
the community itself.
Right?
Yeah.
I think it's interestingbecause as I've served in underserved
communities, you just hit on a point.
(41:15):
It's like, where do we even start?
Is the starting point.
Better health care is thestarting point.
Better food options is thestarting place?
Security when you throw theirchurches in, now that the churches.
Unfortunately, I know myexperience as a pastor, we have abdicated
(41:36):
the care for the community tothe government.
We can't even really get anargument and say, well, here's what
we can provide, because wedon't provide a whole lot.
Besides, our food pantriesopen once every two weeks.
So you kind of hope as achurch that they don't look at you
and go, why aren't you doing more?
So you kind of stay in theback and just be quiet.
(41:57):
It's like pointing somebody else.
You kind of.
So, yeah, it's a fascinatingconversation as to what does the
community.
Because so much has been takenfrom so many of those communities.
I mean, I just.
When I was in Chicago, whenthey started closing down, like the
Walgreens and the blackcommunity, and you had to go, you
know, 20 miles to go get yourprescriptions filled.
(42:21):
Right.
But it closed down becausethere was crime in the Walgreens,
and people kept breaking inand stealing it.
So it's like there's so manypieces to that conversation that
we don't even get to.
Yeah, no, you're right.
It's a lot of pieces to that.
And.
And I want to go back to whatyou were saying about with the churches.
(42:43):
Right.
Kind of almost abdicatingthat, the responsibilities of care
to the community.
And.
And here's what's so powerfulabout that.
What's really powerful is thatwe have such a strong legacy of care,
particularly in the black church.
So.
So.
So we need to come back home, right?
We.
We.
We especially now in this timewhere we are now under an administration
(43:09):
that is, you know, making somany cuts and, you know, so many
changes that really will putpeople in a position of, my goodness,
the only places they're goingto have to turn to will be these
community.
These faith communities andthe smaller community organizations
(43:30):
that.
That still have enough funding.
Right.
Because with funding cuts, youknow, a lot of things are being.
Are being in j.
Are in jeopardy now of existence.
A lot of these caring Kinds of organizations.
So, so my.
I would say my clarion call,particularly for African American
(43:52):
churches, is to come back tothat legacy of care.
Because just like, you know,what we're doing at my church to.
To really try to.
To get this ministry, youknow, health care and.
And health.
Health and wellness ministries going.
We have got to do that becausewe are our answer, right?
(44:17):
We are all we've got.
I mean, let's be real.
We have all we are all we've got.
So.
So we really do need to.
To.
To.
To get back to thosestrategies, because black churches
helped to build the first.
Some of the first blackhospitals when.
When black folk were lockedout of the public health care system.
(44:38):
Right?
Locked out of those systemsbecause of segregation.
It was black church.
Those black church mothers,you know, raising that money, you
know, some of them.
And some of them even startednursing schools and.
And black medical schools because.
Because not only were lockedout of hospitals, we were also locked
out of the training facilitiesand the.
(45:00):
The medical schools andnursing schools.
So.
So.
So that's why I want peoplereally to, you know, dig.
Just dig in a little bit.
Dig into that history of.
Of black churches and thisreally beautiful, powerful legacy
of care.
And I have it in my book.
You can.
You can.
You can dig in there.
(45:20):
It'll be a good start for youto dig in there because.
Because I know.
I know we can do it.
If.
If we built.
If.
If we built institutions like,you know, now what is Tuskegee University,
you know, built from a personliterally formerly enslaved.
I mean, come on now.
(45:40):
Right?
And all.
All that he had to work within building that institution were
other formerly enslavedpersons, which meant they had pennies,
and probably not even pennies.
Right?
And so, so, so, so if.
If we could literally buildinstitutions with nothing, all the
(46:03):
money and education andgiftedness that.
That we have among us now in.
In the black church and inAfrican American communities, I.
I tell you, we have no excuse,you know?
Right?
We know we have no excuse.
We.
We can.
We can build a.
We can build on a phenomenallegacy of care.
Yeah.
(46:23):
Amen.
So I gotta ask you thisquestion, looking forward, what impact
do you hope the woman is.
Bioethics will have on thefield of bioethics and human and
healthcare as a whole?
Yes.
So my, My.
My hope is that it'll haveimpacted at several levels.
(46:47):
The first level is.
I'm hoping it has impact.
Just added like a individual level.
Because one thing that peoplewho are in caring professions, whether
they are pastors or doctors,nurses, when you're in a caring profession,
you realize that you are trulya wounded healer, right?
(47:10):
Many times we're trying toheal for help, help other folk heal.
But, shoot, we hobbling aroundwith our own pains, hobbling around
with our own past, you know,hurts, past trauma that still haunts
us every day.
And so we ourselves needhealing as we are working for the
(47:34):
care and in.
In terms of health care, cureof others, and as we are journeying
with others on their path tohealing, we ourselves need that.
And so.
So my.
My absolute hope is that we dothe both.
And we are.
We are working for justice,working for the thriving of our communities
(48:00):
and thriving and flourishingof others as we also attend to the
healing that needs to go on inour own lives.
And.
And I'm gonna tell you, I'vereally been trying to be more intentional
about that.
So I've been waking up andI've been saying, all right, you
know, like, there's.
There's several things that Iwant to just think about.
(48:22):
First thing first, how do Iwant to show up in this world today?
Before I step foot out of thishouse, I need to figure out what.
And what way do I want to show up?
1.
I know I want to be a healing presence.
I know I want to embody love.
I know, you know, like, thereare certain things.
And so in order to do that,then that means I need to be, you
(48:43):
know, I need to be showing upmy prayer life.
I need to be meditating on,you know, what is love?
It's honoring others.
It's, you know, having mercy.
It's having compassion.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, what is it practically?
So.
So that's what I'm hoping isthat we do these, like, practical
things every day in our own life.
(49:06):
That doesn't take much.
You know, it just takes alittle bit of us thinking through.
Yeah.
What I.
Yeah.
How do I want to be today?
This being right.
In addition to the doing.
But.
But I also think that then wealso need to, at the broader level,
hold our institutions accountable.
(49:27):
So, like our churches, right.
We need to be honest in thechurch about how we neglect.
We neglect a lot of issues.
We don't just neglect mental health.
We neglect issues likepregnancy, birth.
You know, like, we.
We don't really.
We don't talk about how is itthat we can be.
(49:48):
We can facilitate the thrivingin the health of mothers, of pregnant
women in our congregations,you know, beyond.
Beyond getting in fightsbecause we get in so many religious
fights over.
And I'm not saying it's notimportant, but we get in fights over
politicized issues.
(50:09):
But sometimes that also cancompromise our actions on behalf
of the flourishing of humanbeings right there in our congregations
and in our broader community.
Right?
And so I think that is soimportant to hold ourselves accountable
for bad theology.
(50:30):
Like, let's not pretend thatdoesn't exist, right?
Bad theology that, that saysit's okay to keep, you know, certain
people subjugated, right?
Like if it's some, something,some theology, say, oh, women, you
know, should be subjugated,you know, so, so yeah, we really
need to, we need to just startbeing honest with ourselves and holding
(50:52):
ourselves accountable in ourfaith communities and then in our
healthcare system.
Right?
Holding clinicians accountableto not.
Well, to just be aware oftheir own implicit bias and be aware
of not, not say, oh, no, racism.
(51:13):
There's no racism here.
Well, wait, let's, let's,let's, let's first see, because public
health institutions in thisnation, right, in the cdc, these
institutions are clear thatracism is a root cause, right?
It is a root cause of healthdisparities, you know, and the suffering.
(51:37):
Because since enslavement, wehave normalized black suffering and
black misery in this country.
We've normalized it.
Yeah, it's powerful.
Before we close this out andit's been a great conversation, I
love to ask my guest thisother question.
It's a tail end of the first question.
What do you want your legacyto be?
(52:00):
Wow, that's a beautiful.
Oh, that's a beautiful question.
I would say, honestly, firstthing that comes to my mind, love.
And, and, and I know, youknow, people, there's so much kind
of almost negative thingsattached to love, right?
Because people like, ah,people abuse folk and they say that
(52:22):
it's love, you know, and, andlove is, you know, superficial and
all this in the minds of, of,of a lot of folk.
But I mean, absolutely tryingto live into what it means to actually
(52:44):
embrace one another as, youknow, how when you have someone that
you're in a relationship with, right.
Particularly at the verybeginnings when you just, oh, you
can't take your eyes off the person.
You're just staring into oneanother's eyes.
That's what I want people todo with one another and with communities
and with folk who aredifferent from them.
(53:06):
If we can fall in love witheach other, right.
In a way that says, you matterso much to me that I want to ensure
that you have the best of whatlife has to offer.
You have the best of healthcare, you have the best of, of just
what it takes for you tothrive as a human being.
(53:31):
My God.
I want, I, I really do want that.
I want us to love each otherso much that even if we don't disagree
with each other, that we canstill say, but you know what?
I love you.
We're going to get through this.
We're going to work through this.
I'm going to find out how, howI can still help you and still, you
(53:53):
know, we still be inrelationship with one another that
allows you to flourish andthat I'm not.
Just because I don't agreewith you, you know, ideologically
and just because we don't havethe same politics that.
Oh, I just can't talk to you.
Oh, you.
Oh, I just, you know, I reallywant that for, for, for, for people,
(54:16):
for all of us to, to practicethis thing called love, you know.
Yeah.
In a real way.
That's powerful.
Where can listeners find yourbook Women is by ethics and connect
with you on social media?
Fantastic.
Yes, you can find the book, ofcourse on Amazon, but also on barnes
and noble.com that bookseller,but then also on my website, y lyndwilson.com
(54:46):
and when you go to my website,you also see other resources there
that you know, to deal with,you know, mental health and, and
health and well being as well,of minoritized communities.
So those are a few ways.
I'm also on Instagram and onLinkedIn as well.
(55:07):
Oh, wy.
Lynn D.
Wilson.
Well, Wylan, thank you so muchfor providing such great conversation
and context and we dug deepinto a really important topic.
So thank you for your time andbeing an awesome guest on my podcast.
Thank you for having me.
I just, I'm so grateful.
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