April 27, 2025 • 40 mins
The salient theme of our discussion centers on the vital importance of courageous communication in fostering personal and professional relationships. Today, I am joined by Michelle Gladieux, a distinguished expert in the field of communication, recognized for her adeptness in mentoring individuals towards realizing their full potential. As the author of the acclaimed book "Communicate with Courage," Michelle elucidates the intricacies of effective communication, emphasizing that often the lack of such skills can lead to organizational dysfunction and interpersonal strife. Throughout our conversation, we explore not only the theoretical underpinnings of courageous communication but also the practical steps individuals can undertake to enhance their communicative efficacy. We invite our listeners to reflect on their own communication practices and consider the transformative power of vulnerability and openness in their interactions.
The principal focus of this podcast episode is the imperative of courageous communication, as articulated by our esteemed guest, Michelle Gladieux, a recognized expert in the domain of interpersonal communication. Gladieux, acclaimed for her award-winning book "Communicate with Courage," elucidates the significance of effective dialogue in fostering organizational success and personal growth. Throughout our discussion, she expounds upon her extensive experience in mentoring individuals and leading seminars that enhance communicative efficacy across various sectors. We delve into the nuances of communication styles, exploring both the challenges and opportunities that arise when individuals engage in honest discourse. As we navigate these themes, we invite our audience to reflect upon their own communicative practices, encouraging them to embrace vulnerability and seek constructive feedback to enhance their interactions in both personal and professional realms.
Michelle Gladieux, a distinguished figure in communication and leadership, graces this podcast episode with her insights and experiences. As the president of Gladieux Consulting and the author of the award-winning book, 'Communicate with Courage', she brings a wealth of knowledge spanning over 18 years in collegiate teaching and professional development. Gladnow has been instrumental in mentoring individuals across various organizations, addressing the pervasive issue of ineffective communication that often plagues workplaces. Her emphasis on the importance of courage in communication is a cornerstone of the discussion, suggesting that many organizational challenges stem from a reluctance to engage in open dialogue. Throughout the episode, we delve into the nuances of assertiveness, the significance of tone in communication, and the need to cultivate an environment where individuals feel empowered to express their thoughts candidly. Michelle Gladieux's practical advice encourages listeners to reflect on their communication styles and consider how they can foster a more collaborative atmosphere.
Takeaways:
- Effective communication is paramount in any organization; it is the key to overcoming challenges and achieving success.
- The concept of courage is integral to communication, enabling individuals to express their thoughts and feelings honestly.
- Understanding the emotional context of communication is essential; tone often conveys more than words.
- Trusted individuals' feedback can significantly enhance communication skills and foster personal growth.
- Cultural differences in communication styles can lead to misunderstandings; awareness of these differences is crucial.
- Self-awareness and understanding one's unique mission are vital for courageous communication.
The conversation with Michelle Gladieux elucidates the paramount significance of effective communication in fostering organizational success. As a seasoned expert and author of...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:59):
My guest today is Michelle Gladnow.
She's been called a humanpotential whisperer.
She is the author of the awardwinning book Communicate with Courage.
And she's president of GladNowConsulting, a team known for top
notch seminars andcommunication leadership topics around
the U.S.
she has 18 years of collegiateteaching experience at three universities
(01:21):
in her home state of Indiana,accepting a first faculty position
teaching organizationalleadership at age 23.
She's worked at humanresources and training training director
in a cold storage Robotics,construction industries and enjoys
visiting conferences askeynote speaker.
She has mentored thousands ofpeople and her positive effect on
(01:42):
those she advises evident evenas just one interaction.
We welcome her to the podcast.
Hi Michelle.
Welcome to the podcast.
How you doing today?
Doing great.
So pleased to be here to talkcommunication with a communicator
like yourself.
(02:02):
I love your last name.
Reminds me of my home state of Louisiana.
Everything we, everything wehave ends on that same I E U X so
the ghost saints and all that.
So it's good to have you on.
Yeah, yeah.
Laissez le bon temps brulee, right?
That's right.
Love my little French state ofLouisiana, but it's fun to have you
(02:23):
on.
I'm really happy to be here.
I was thrilled to see that youhad my book in hand, so thanks for
looking into that.
I always love looking at wayshow people communicate because I
know in my profession the onething that causes the most issues
in an organization is lack of communication.
Yeah.
(02:43):
Well, some people are hard tocommunicate with and I know all of
us find it very challenging tocommunicate certain things in certain
circumstances.
And that's sort of why Ibrought the theme of courage into
the book.
Because I find myselfsometimes holding back when I really
am ready and being truthful.
(03:05):
And there's something I needto say or that I could offer that
might help someone else.
And I'm hoping that ourlisteners will think about that as
we discuss communication andmaybe choose a goal for themselves
that will help them be morebrave and effective in the year ahead.
Yeah, because I've worked inorganizations where because lack
of courage and communicationwe end up, the organization suffers,
(03:28):
the employees suffer, everyonesuffers because we don't have the
courage to say what needs tobe said.
So it'll be fun conversation.
Okay, but before we get intotoo deep into that, we gotta go to
my favorite go to question.
What's the best piece ofadvice you've ever received?
I've received a lot of greatadvice, but I have to say that this
(03:49):
brought to mind my mom and dad.
I love them Very much.
They're now deceased.
But they had a lot of pithylittle things they would say to us
kids.
And my mom really liked toquote Shakespeare, who might have
been quoting someone elsebased on recent research I've seen.
But she would always remind meto thine own self be true.
(04:09):
And she counseled me through alot of heartache.
When I was a kid, I felt different.
You know, I think I wasperceived differently.
I certainly wasn't a superpopular kid.
And whenever I was feeling onthe outside, she'd remind myself
that.
She would remind me that wecan have a.
A rich inner life that cansustain us.
So I like to thine own self be true.
(04:31):
And my dad would often say,keep your nose clean.
And I think what he meant was,stay out of trouble, I love you.
Because he knew I would be arisk taker and I would be probably
engaged in some riskycommunication, maybe telling somebody,
maybe telling a teacher what Ireally thought.
But they both preached thevalue of education, diplomacy and
(04:54):
assertiveness.
So I got good advice fromthose two.
I love that.
And assertiveness can be good.
It's good to scoop in somediplomacy with it so that we don't
leave people, you know,shocked at what we've said or more
importantly, how we've said it.
And there are so many studiesthat support humans care, as you
well know, more about tonethan word choice.
(05:15):
You can say a lot with your tone.
I admit sometimes when I'm not pleased.
If I ran you back a transcriptof the words I chose, I could say
all I said was, but thenagain, when I listen into the tone,
I know that maybe I'm notbeing as forthright as I could be.
There might be some passiveaggressiveness in there.
(05:36):
Yeah, I learned that early onin life.
It was really funny when Iremember changing out of the parish
into and more of an executive role.
I would go have difficultconversations with congregations
and I come back and say, well,how did it go?
And I would read every recantto them, know, recall the conversation.
And like, you said that andyou're still here.
(05:56):
I'm like, well, yeah, itdidn't come across the.
I mean, the transcript doesn'ttell you how the tone went, but they
took it really well.
And they were like, I don'tknow how you get away with that.
So you're right.
Tone does matter.
Who do you think taught you todo that?
So well, Reverend Doctor.
Reverend Doctor.
Well, thank you.
(06:17):
I think my.
I think my mom was a truth teller.
I think what I learned from myMom's way of truth telling was she
would say in a way thatsometimes annoyed people and they
turned tuned it out.
So I learned to say the samething, but in a way either with a
smile or something where itwas received without the negative
(06:39):
pushback that she might have gotten.
So I learned to say it withoutgetting the pushback she got.
Excellent.
I'm very blessed to have ateam of eight that works with me.
We're based in Fort Wayne,Indiana, and we serve clients all
around the United States.
And something that some of ourexecutive coaching clients are trying
(06:59):
on for size is if they havesomething challenging to say or to
ask a difficult subject tobring up, we counsel them to use
some preamble.
You know, something like, now,Keith, I know you're doing your best
and you mean well, and I havesome feedback to share today that
I think will help this teamcontinue to grow.
(07:20):
So we're learning.
I'm learning.
And as I'm learning it, I'mtrying to teach our clients, sometimes
stating your intention orusing a preamble is the best thing
you can do so that the ego ofthe recipient of your behavior isn't
stunned, shocked, or theperson doesn't get defensive or on
the offensive right away.
We really have to.
Emotions are such a big partof communication.
(07:42):
It doesn't make any sense totry to pretend that they aren't right.
So I like to speak to othersemotions, try to honor them.
When I'm in, when I'm being mybest self as a communicator, I always
take into consideration howmight the other be feeling, which
is also a good way to human.
If we want to make human averb, you know, that is taking care
(08:03):
of others.
And in the long run, there'sthat virtuous circle and it ends
up taking care of you and your career.
I've also had to learn becauseI work a lot cross culturally with
other people from othercountries, that communication is
different depending upon whatculture you're coming from.
So I remember we had, I wasworking with an Asian individual
(08:25):
before and I learned thatsometimes in Asian culture they will
say yes to avoid conflict,having no intention of actually following
through on whatever you justasked of.
So it was like, oh, this isimportant to know because you go,
well, why didn't you show up?
Why didn't this happen?
It's like we had a deal, wewere going to meet, we were going
to do this collaboration.
(08:46):
How do you then find outwhether yes means yes yes or yes
means no?
Yes.
I talk more with them to makesure that we're okay with this.
And this is not just mepushing something on people, especially
with certain groups.
I also learned that people whoare French, when you're doing feedback
with them, they're used tocoming from a culture where they
(09:09):
don't get very many, very many compliments.
So they're used to negative.
So in our culture, when wetend to do feedback, and we do, let
me tell you three things.
You're doing well, and the onething that you're not doing well.
Well, if you come from aFrench culture, you go, wow, I got
three compliments.
And really in America, thosethree things were just kind of throw
(09:30):
away, just so we could get tothe one really important thing.
But if I'm just thinking aboutmy French roots, and perhaps this
is why sometimes I missopportunities, or I've been accused
of my feedback being tooblunt, mostly with loved ones, especially
with family, and less so withclients and college students, etc.
(09:54):
And I wonder if that's not inmy nature to get to just the heart
of the matter, but it, if itshuts the other person down, then
we're going nowhere.
So I'm.
I think every year that I getolder, I refine something else about
my communication.
And if I'm lucky enough tolive into my 90s, maybe I will be
a very, very good communicator.
(10:14):
But it's a lifelong effort,don't you think it is?
Certainly not.
You're always.
Yeah, for sure.
So what inspired you?
Let's get into your book towrite Communicate with Courage.
I was having so much fun doingcustom training, design and then
presenting training in topicsall over communication, all over
(10:37):
the whole field ofcommunication, presentation skills,
conflict management, businesswriting, performance reviews, stress
and change management.
Those the good stuff, I thinkthat really can make a career and
a life happier and more successful.
And those companies that hireus to do that, it's 10 people, it's
30 people, it's 300 people, orit might be an auditorium of 2,000
(11:00):
people.
But I didn't have a way to getthese ideas out to a larger audience.
And I think we need to knowabout these hidden challenges in
communication.
I just wanted to offer what Icould offer.
This is my area of subjectmatter expertise.
And I want the world to knowthat wherever they start, they can
make more of a difference ascommunicators than they probably
(11:22):
realize.
So I wanted a book that wouldbe fun, interesting, there'd be some
humor, there might be some tears.
They're all real life storiesabout myself and other Real life
people.
And the idea was we keep itshort to about 140 pages so that
it's something you could readin two hours or you could dip in
and try the pro moves, as Icall them, and the exercises at the
(11:44):
end of each chapter.
And I'll give you a quickdefinition of pro moves.
Pro moves are small things wecan do as communicators that the
average bear tends to miss.
They walk on by not thinking,oh, there's an opportunity for praise.
Or I could have asked aclarifying question or forgot to
say thank you for that favor.
So little things that canreally lift a person up and that
(12:07):
can also improve our own reputation.
I call those pro moves andthey're sprinkled throughout the
book.
I'm really just trying toshare and, you know, not hide my
light under a bushel basket.
I guess you could say I like that.
We all want to be better communicators.
Is there a major thing wecould do right away today to be a
(12:29):
better communicator?
If there's just we.
We just have one thing we wantto improve on, what would be that
one thing we should all do tobe a better communicator?
Let's be brave, all of us, andask someone we trust, how did I come
across just now?
How did you perceive that?
Is there something I could dodifferently or better, in your opinion,
(12:52):
without giving constructivefeedback in return?
Invite others to tell you whatthey see that you do well as a communicator
and then something that youcould, in their opinion, sometimes
do better.
And you get a in the moment,real life, real talk example of how
your behavior impacts othersas a communicator.
(13:13):
And if you can keep your mindopen and keep the wall down so you
can hear what people aresaying, you'll learn at least how
to communicate better.
And what's going well withthat one person that you asked.
And our coaching clients allaround the us are taking on challenges
like that, but they go ask 12or 13 people.
(13:35):
Sounds like being vulnerable.
It's kind of sounds like it does.
We call it the feedback challenge.
Yeah.
But you know, the more we arevulnerable, the more we become strong.
And everybody likes, I thinkeverybody likes to say, Keith, well,
nobody's perfect.
No one's perfect.
You have to have grace, giveothers grace, use grace with yourself.
(13:58):
But then secretly, I don'tknow about you, but secretly I expect
my performance to be perfect.
Or sometimes I get intonegative self talk about it.
So I say this, that Iunderstand humanity is about imperfection,
but Then I have a differentexpectation of myself.
And when I do that, I'm alsounkind and unfair sometimes to others
(14:19):
because they can't reach myexpectations either.
And this is hard to say, butthis is some hard work and self awareness.
And this comes from askingothers how they perceive right how
I'm communicating with them.
Especially in times ofconflict where there's great growth
to be gained.
If we could just stop runningaway from conflict and also stop
rushing to get in there to winusing more collaboration, compromise
(14:44):
and the five styles ofhandling human conflict are listed
in the book explained.
And ideally we'd all get goodat all five.
So that would be another tip.
I would say that would be agood takeaway for folks who might
read the book.
You talk about those fivestyles of your clients you've worked
with.
Is there one style that seemsto be more most challenging for people?
(15:05):
There are two.
Avoidance.
And that is when we deny thesituation exists or we delay dealing
with it.
Kind of magical thinking, hopeit's going to resolve itself.
We're all adults.
Well, probably not, but that'sprobably good for my business because
we teach a lot of conflictmanagement skills.
So those teams often callthat's great.
(15:26):
But as supervisors, especiallyif someone is a manager in their
workplace or their, theirplace of volunteerism or their church,
then you really do have to bebrave and bring up dysfunctional
behavior or divisions amongteam members that does fall to you.
So, so I encourage, I'mfinding myself encouraging thousands
(15:47):
of clients over the last 25years to stop with the conflict avoidance
and only avoid when you reallyhave to.
When you need a third party orwhen now is not the time because
you're too angry to seestraight or you need to gather data.
Okay, avoid.
But don't avoid it forever ifit needs to come up.
And the other dangerous whenoverused style is competing.
(16:10):
And that is to take the mowalk in with a modus operandi of
I will win and you will lose.
And this is the person whohates to be wrong and often can't
apologize easily.
And I am describing myself inmany ways because I'm pretty competitive
and I think I was raised to bethat way.
So now I look foropportunities to accommodate more.
(16:32):
But a good personalityassessment is a wonderful, a wonderful
idea and a great investment in oneself.
Something that is valid andreliable statistically.
And then you go through with atrained practitioner to help, hopefully
to help you understand yourpersonality report.
Life changing.
Life changing for me the firsttime I did it about 15 years ago
(16:54):
and now we make sure everycoaching client does take our personality
assessment so we can see thestrengths and weaknesses we're dealing
with.
I used to tell my staff I waswrong once.
1973, August 13th.
So if it happens again, if ithappens again, I'll let you know.
But funny they say whathappened that day?
(17:18):
I'm like, I don't remember.
But it was something.
I know I want to know whathappened that day.
That's when you rolled throughthe stoplight instead of a full and
complete stop.
Keith, that was it.
Exactly one thing, the onething I've ever done wrong.
But so I'm curious as youthink about this book and I think
every organization couldbenefit from a book like this.
I always wonder how do we besttake a book like this into a organizational
(17:44):
setting and best utilize it toimprove communication.
You have like a suggestion ofif you're going to do this as a group,
how would you do that?
Oh sure.
Well, we love designing bookworkshops and so I've put on our
website.
Our website will probably bein your show notes but it's that
gladioconsulting.com thatFrench last name G L A D I E U x
(18:10):
like X Ray consulting.com andfolks could go there and just a few
months ago we created acompanion guide, myself and my designers
and we've got that out therefor free on the website currently.
And it takes you through howyou can apply what you're reading
to your own life for each chapter.
Another way to do it in agroup would be everyone choose one
(18:33):
exercise.
10 short chapters.
Choose one exercise, try itout in your own life, Come back to
the next Monday morningmeeting or your next training time
together and go around theroom and simply share.
Here's the exercise.
Here were the results thatopens eyes and you learn a lot from
your co workers just byspeaking what exercise you undertook.
(18:56):
How would you handle this in acorporation setting or organizational
setting where the leader is abad communicator but you want to
help them to grow?
Because I know we, we allmaybe know we need to do this, but
the person who needs to be theone to lead the spearhead, this is
really bad at it.
But how do we communicate tohim he's really bad or heard that
(19:19):
she's really bad at it.
I would look for some one onone time with that leader and I would
share what I observed and Iwould offer steps so that that person
could begin to immediatelyimprove their reputation and their
skill set.
You need both credibility anda strong skill set.
And if I could gain their trust.
And usually that comes prettyeasy because my motives are good.
(19:42):
You know, I really care abouttheir success and I think they can
really tell.
I might ask them to makeapologies or a verbal admittance
of some weaknesses that theyare working on.
And I was just today coachinga CEO at a medical practice.
And they have become aware oftheir shortcomings and how they've
(20:05):
interacted with employees.
Hasn't always been pictureperfect, of course.
And this person is now workinginto conversation.
Hey, I'm in coaching and I'mgetting a goal plan every month.
So you're going to see somenew behaviors from me because I realize
I need to grow too.
And I just know how.
I know how it feels to be an employee.
When someone with moreorganizational power is willing to
(20:26):
admit they have things to workon, I'd follow them anywhere.
And so that person is startingto realize, oh, after I told employees
that I am getting homework andworking on me and I want feedback,
it changed the tenor, the toneor the vibe of that workplace.
And it has to be sincerebecause whether you're 4 years old
(20:47):
or 104 years old, you can always.
There's, there's often a feeling.
Maybe not always, but there'soften a feeling when someone is trying
to pull the wool over your eyes.
So you.
I think I would go for, I'd gofor one on one, of course.
Yeah.
Because that's a heart toheart conversation.
I think that's important.
And I think again, having thecourage to communicate, even with
(21:07):
people who are above you, is abig part of your book.
Right, right.
It is, it is.
They need feedback too.
And if you do it with asincere intention to make the relationship
better or customer servicebetter or the workplace better, and
you can state that intention,it's going to help you along through
a tough conversation, as is remembering.
(21:27):
If you're complaining aboutanybody else's leadership style,
communication, whatever thatis, ask yourself, is that ever me?
Do I sometimes have that weakness?
And if then you see that inyourself, verbalize it.
I know, I do this too.
Right Is how I put it.
So here's what I'm doing toget around it.
(21:48):
Yeah.
So you have four hidden challenges.
Give us those four challengesand kind of give us a little summary
of those four.
Sure we have.
In my practice, I've seenpeople hide from risk and that's
when they're afraid to look,let us see who they are.
They're afraid to take risk.
Perhaps they've been punishedfor it, perhaps they haven't had
(22:08):
an easy time in childhood.
It would be nice if there werepeople around us that were helping
us to see our strengths.
We don't all have thatprivilege and blessing, so we can
start hiding from risk.
Defining to be right is whenyou're so darn sure that nobody's
even going to try to tell youdifferently because you make it impossible
(22:29):
to do so.
You will not say, h, you mightbe right or I might be wrong.
The third hidden challenge Iwrite about in the book is rationalizing
the negative.
And in that chapter, I take on pessimism.
And I ask our readers to thinklong and hard if they identify as
(22:50):
pessimists or if others wouldidentify them in that way, to perhaps
at any age in life, make achange and make a choice about optimism.
It's not the easy choice, butwe do need to spend some time, you
know, visualizing positiveoutcomes that might be possible,
or we may never see thosepositive outcomes, you know, and
(23:11):
plus, it can just be a realdrag to live with or work with someone
who is very aligned withpessimistic thinking.
So I offer some solutions inthe book to help readers deal with
that in loved ones or coworkers and in themselves.
And the fourth hiddenchallenge that I write about is called
settling for good enough.
And that's.
It's okay sometimes.
(23:32):
I mean, we all have to justchoose what is satisficing, what
will get me through here.
When we're going through toughtimes, it's hard to really give 110%.
But we can't always besettling for good enough if we want
to leave any kind of legacy inour families and in our teams as
communicators.
So I offer some steps forpeople to stop settling for good
(23:54):
enough and choose some thingsthat matter to work towards.
I love that.
How is writing this book andall the research you did, they put
behind this book change yourown communication style and personal
growth?
Well, I, you know, I'velaughed a bit because I must have
(24:15):
been out of my mind to say I'mgoing to write a book called Communicate
with Courage, Keith for therest of my life.
Now I have to communicate withcourage or I'm the lady who wrote
the book.
So it's certainly helping melook at myself and where I'm not
brave and some of those places within.
I am just not quite ready toface my failings and others.
(24:36):
I'm ready to go do the hardparts that really make relationships
better.
And I'm always asking foranother chance for Grace.
I'm asking for feedbackBecause I figure if I can get others
working along with me to helpme get better, and I'm helping them
get better at this, we're allgoing to win.
So I don't know if that's astraight answer to your question
(24:58):
or not.
How has it changed my life?
It's required me to be bravepersonally and professionally because
now pretty much everybodyknows about the book.
And it's required me to becomea better time manager because thankfully
the book has, I think it's got11 literary awards to date.
And that's fantastic and soexciting for myself and my team.
(25:19):
But it does mean moreinterviews and more time paying attention
to the book.
At the same time, I want to beteaching and training and coaching
just as much as I always was.
So there's a bit of sort of Ifeel like I'm raising a book and
it's two years old now.
And I'm also managing myconsulting and training practice.
(25:40):
So I've, I've had to practicegood time management.
So let's talk about your consulting.
Give me an real lifeillustration of someone who has benefited
from your consulting andbecome a better communicator.
Okay.
Well, this morning's I havetwo coaching sessions before this
interview and they both ranabout 90 minutes.
(26:02):
And that's, that's about wherewe like them.
It's a deep discussion ofwhat's going well and what could
be better in one's work life.
And the first was with a highranking CEO who is finding their
voice in dealing withchallenging board members who aren't
likely to take responsibility,sometimes don't follow through.
(26:23):
You know how it goes.
Sometimes they get staffworried about things when we don't
want them talking to staffabout things.
There are just things going onand this person really needed to
find their courage andremember that they are just as valuable
as anyone else in the roomwhen asking for behavior change diplomatically.
And then the very next sessionwas with someone 40, 30 or 40 years
(26:47):
younger who is anadministrative assistant.
And that person, one of theirgoals for this month was to research
different colleges that mightbe of interest and enroll.
And so we were able tocelebrate in the second month of
coaching that that was completed.
And we're also looking at someself talk with that person and they're
(27:07):
documenting for me and forthemselves the kind things they say
to themselves and the unkind things.
And then we are going to takethat list of unkind self talk and
in the next session we'll seewhat's true and what's not true.
And we will cross off and letgo anything that's from the past
or was a past label,stereotype, whatever that might be,
(27:28):
that was a sign.
That's not true.
That's not helping their self esteem.
So I guess what I love aboutthe job is all of the different types
of humans.
Military, academia, industry,manufacturing, health care, banking,
nonprofits, some churches.
Not often, but sometimeschurches call and what they're looking
for is often personalityassessment and one on one or team
(27:51):
coaching to help them leadbetter together.
I love the diversity, I wouldsay, in the clients.
So there's a lot of goodthat's happening every day.
It's very addictive.
Cool.
Are you discovering thatthere's a difference with communication
based on age?
I.
I noticed that maybe youngerpeople, because of the social media
(28:12):
aspects, maybe struggle withcommunication a little bit more than
an older generation might.
Are you noticing some of that?
I would say I'm noticing less.
I think it's a struggle insome way for all of us.
I'm noticing more differencesin personality types and what the
different personality stylesare challenged by.
(28:34):
And that holds prettyconsistent across those.
We could, if we wanted to saythere are four main human personality
styles.
There's a lot more, of course,that goes into a person's way of
interacting with the world.
But just to start at that30,000 foot level, I see more differences
among personalities than I doage or gender.
(28:56):
So what whether forpersonality types, I'm just kind
of curious.
Yeah, yeah.
People call them differentthings, but there are only four.
So it depends on whatassessment you're looking at.
I like the terminology.
I believe it's.
Psychologist David Merrillcame up with these four and I think
of it as driver, kick butt andget things done.
Person expressive.
(29:16):
And the expressive is veryrelational and gregarious, outgoing,
could talk to anyone about anything.
Then there's the amiable.
And all of us have some of allfour styles.
But the person who has a lotof amiable in their style, they really
seek to keep the peace, keepthings cool, make sure everybody's
happy.
And analysts value data andmetrics very much.
(29:39):
And they're thinking logicallyand they're thinking process improvement
and research.
And so it's really nice iswhen we do personality assessment
with an entire team, whetherthat's 30 people or three people,
we can share the graphs andshare the reports and look and understand.
Wow.
The way this person isinteracting comes from DNA which
(30:00):
is not changeable and largelyfrom upbringing and life experience.
And our upbringing is also not changeable.
Now we can Gain and learn new skills.
But it really serves us wellto understand at least the four human
social styles or personalitiesand then the pros and cons of having
a lot of any of those four.
(30:21):
Yeah, it's been fun.
I've taken every.
Have you?
Well, Myers, you know thyself.
Yeah, that's right.
I keep thinking it's going tochange, but it never really does.
Um, well, it might be changinga little and sometimes it's that
3% change that can reallychange your life.
Well, I know I went from ahigh D and the Myers Briggs to a
(30:42):
high I, which was aninteresting shift.
But they're related becausethose are the two most risk taking
and go get it styles, the mostachievement oriented styles.
So they're very closelywedded, I discovered.
And you're changing the world.
I mean, you know, you don't.
I don't know.
When you rest, you have a lotof roles.
(31:03):
That's what my wife asked me.
Yeah, well, you know, rest isnot our favorite thing.
I'm also, I'm also di ordriver expressive.
And I find it hard to watch togo to a movie theater for two hours
and watch a movie.
My mind is like, you know, howmany people you could be helping
or emailing or you could bewriting training.
It's.
It's.
(31:23):
Sometimes it's hard for us tobe still, right?
Yes, exactly.
I have to put music on so I'mnot thinking which is love it, love
it.
Right.
Or watch some ridiculous TV show.
I'm curious, so what's nextfor you?
You've gotten this and you'restarting to gain momentum.
Is there a new book on Horizon?
(31:44):
There is.
To communicate with love orsomething else besides courage?
No, because I'm still.
All these ideas that I put inthe book, a lot of them were fresh
and new from my five yearwriting process.
And now folks are wantingkeynotes and workshops based on the
book.
So I'm still getting to knowhow I want to teach what's in the
(32:06):
book and getting the book, theword out about the book.
So I'm not ready to writeanother book yet, but I am.
I did just hire another teammember and she's a real go getter.
And so I think we're going to.
I'm excited to see what myteam and I will do this year.
We're out to change lives andchange organizations by helping people
(32:27):
be better communicators andleaders with humor.
A dose of humor as we look at ourselves.
So like a community, I think the.
Doors, you know, I keepbelieving that the right clients
come around at the right timeand that has worked out now for almost
for at least 20, 25 years.
So, you know, I'm just hopingthat the phone keeps ringing, Keith,
(32:47):
and that people bring theirkeep opening their hearts to us and
opening their organizations tous so we can come be guides as people
learn.
So as a consultant, how wouldyou counsel someone who wants to
be a person who communicateswith courage?
What would you say are thefirst steps they need to work on
to do that?
(33:09):
Well, we've talked aboutgetting feedback about how you come
across.
I would say make sure you, youdeeply understand and own your own
unique mission statement.
So what do you love to do?
And I know no job is all rosesand fun and sunshine, but what do
you love to do?
And then who do you serve bydoing it?
(33:29):
How are they changed as aresult of knowing you?
Once you figure that out, whatyour niche is, how you're going to
contribute, what people willbe saying about you at your memorial
service, when your body liesdown and takes its last breath, what
do you want people to sayabout you?
And then once you know that,then the doors start to open and
(33:51):
also fears will start to come up.
And that's when we begin totry to articulate or define the fear
so that we can work through it.
And hopefully with a good amentor, a guide or a coach can help
with that or a good friend, anaccountability partner.
So live for your Know yourmission and if you'd like help figuring
out what your unique missionis, back to our website gladio consulting.com
(34:16):
hit free tools one of the tabsat the top and down, a bunch of one
to two page.
I think they're fun andcolorful, e fillable, downloadable.
We want to be a service that'sone of the things you can grab from
our website, the uniquemission exercise.
And that keeps me goingthrough good times and bad to remember
(34:38):
what I've said about myself ismy unique mission.
And some people have more thanone and we wear different hats.
But thinking generally now asa communicator, what will you be
known for?
And that will open some doors.
So you've segue into my otherfavorite question.
What do you want your legacyto be?
(34:59):
Oh, I think I want it to bewhat it is becoming and that is that
I see people's potential.
I will meet them where theyare, I will hold them to fair, high
standards and hopefullywelcome their feedback in the process.
(35:20):
It's an honor to be on thejourney with the people I get to
help.
They let me see their heart, Ilet them see mine.
And we celebrate the wins thatcome up from the goals in communication.
And we try to laugh about thefailures, realizing the failures
are the best stories whenyou're teaching somebody something
(35:41):
later.
And also they help you.
If you're going to take a riskand fail as a communicator, it's
certainly going to help youempathize with the rest of us who
take risks and mess up.
I had a pretty large keynotelast month.
There were 1500 people in theroom in Denver.
Grant writers, a grantwriters, the Grant Summit, Grant
(36:03):
Writers Conference.
And the keynote was reallygoing very well.
I got to chat, was doinghighlights from each chapter, speaking
for a little over an hour.
I got to chapter nine and Ithink it was that Denver air, being
the mile high city, all of thedryness of living inside the conference
center for several days, Idon't know.
But I lost my voice completelyand I was embarrassed.
(36:27):
I tried it.
It didn't sound good.
It's being broadcast alsoonline to people who paid to receive
the keynote.
And I remember I turned myback just for a second to the audience,
usually a no, no.
And I sort of shook my handsup at the sky.
I just wanted them to know.
And also I was thinking,guardian angels.
(36:48):
Guardian angels.
Do you not see me in thissuit, in these heels with all of
these people?
Some angel, maybe guardianangel ran up to the stage with a
basket of cough drops.
I popped a couple in, tookanother sip.
This didn't take long.
This was maybe three minutes.
It felt like three hours to me.
And I got half my voice backand I finished and you know, the
(37:11):
audience was excited.
I think that I got to the end,but it sure wasn't what I planned.
And, and I think of myself asa pro.
And I was shocked that myvoice gave up on me.
We can't, we can't preventthese things from happening.
But it's going to make me abetter teacher and more empathic
when I'm working with someonewho fears public speaking.
Right, right.
(37:31):
Exactly.
Been there.
So I love to ask you this as well.
Where can people connect withyou again to make sure we can find
you and get some of your, getyour book, Communicate with Courage.
Where can I buy that?
Everywhere, happily.
It's available on Amazon andBook, you know, every bookseller
(37:53):
that you might be a fan of,you can go to that bookseller.
You can get it on our website,gladio consulting.com but I do hope
folks will give me a call if Ican help.
My cell phone number is 260-450-4202.
My business card says eightdays a week because I love the Beatles
and I love rock and roll, butalso because it's okay to call outside
(38:16):
of.
I definitely feel like I ampursuing my passion.
So 8 to 5 doesn't apply very often.
And then I do a newsletter andit's pretty fun, I hear, to receive.
I think people are enjoying it.
I always include a music videothat ties into communication somehow
and I write it four times ayear and you can sign up for that.
(38:39):
It's called Breakdown, namedafter a Tom Petty song.
Actually it's called Breakdownand that's available on the website
along with back issues thatpeople might enjoy the free tools
I think they can go to linksto research and links to articles
and small things that can helpwith a job search or managing a conflict
or working on listening skillsor writing or speaking.
(39:01):
Well, we try to put good stuffin there for free every quarter.
That's awesome.
As we wrap up our phenomenalconversation, what key takeaways
you want to leave with theaudience from our conversation?
I want to remind everyone thatthere's no one that you're going
to meet in this lifetime thatis more or less valuable than you
at the soul level.
(39:21):
At least that is my deep belief.
And once we get that down,that we're all in this journey together
here to to improve and better ourselves.
Celebrate our strengths,celebrate our failures.
Because we were brave to takea risk, lift others up and we start
to see ourselves as equally valuable.
A lot of those communicationfears will fall away.
(39:44):
Well, Michelle, thanks so muchfor what you do and helping us be
better communicators.
So continue the hard work ofmaking us all learn to communicate
with each other better.
You too.
I'm such a fan of your work.
Keep it up.
Thank you.
My guest today is Michelle Gladnow.
She's been called a humanpotential whisperer.
She is the author of the awardwinning book Communicate with Courage.
And she's president of GladNowConsulting, a team known for top
notch seminars andcommunication leadership topics around
the U.S.
she has 18 years of collegiateteaching experience at three universities
(01:21):
in her home state of Indiana,accepting a first faculty position
teaching organizationalleadership at age 23.
She's worked at humanresources and training training director
in a cold storage Robotics,construction industries and enjoys
visiting conferences askeynote speaker.
She has mentored thousands ofpeople and her positive effect on
(01:42):
those she advises evident evenas just one interaction.
We welcome her to the podcast.
Hi Michelle.
Welcome to the podcast.
How you doing today?
Doing great.
So pleased to be here to talkcommunication with a communicator
like yourself.
(02:02):
I love your last name.
Reminds me of my home state of Louisiana.
Everything we, everything wehave ends on that same I E U X so
the ghost saints and all that.
So it's good to have you on.
Yeah, yeah.
Laissez le bon temps brulee, right?
That's right.
Love my little French state ofLouisiana, but it's fun to have you
(02:23):
on.
I'm really happy to be here.
I was thrilled to see that youhad my book in hand, so thanks for
looking into that.
I always love looking at wayshow people communicate because I
know in my profession the onething that causes the most issues
in an organization is lack of communication.
Yeah.
(02:43):
Well, some people are hard tocommunicate with and I know all of
us find it very challenging tocommunicate certain things in certain
circumstances.
And that's sort of why Ibrought the theme of courage into
the book.
Because I find myselfsometimes holding back when I really
am ready and being truthful.
(03:05):
And there's something I needto say or that I could offer that
might help someone else.
And I'm hoping that ourlisteners will think about that as
we discuss communication andmaybe choose a goal for themselves
that will help them be morebrave and effective in the year ahead.
Yeah, because I've worked inorganizations where because lack
of courage and communicationwe end up, the organization suffers,
(03:28):
the employees suffer, everyonesuffers because we don't have the
courage to say what needs tobe said.
So it'll be fun conversation.
Okay, but before we get intotoo deep into that, we gotta go to
my favorite go to question.
What's the best piece ofadvice you've ever received?
I've received a lot of greatadvice, but I have to say that this
(03:49):
brought to mind my mom and dad.
I love them Very much.
They're now deceased.
But they had a lot of pithylittle things they would say to us
kids.
And my mom really liked toquote Shakespeare, who might have
been quoting someone elsebased on recent research I've seen.
But she would always remind meto thine own self be true.
(04:09):
And she counseled me through alot of heartache.
When I was a kid, I felt different.
You know, I think I wasperceived differently.
I certainly wasn't a superpopular kid.
And whenever I was feeling onthe outside, she'd remind myself
that.
She would remind me that wecan have a.
A rich inner life that cansustain us.
So I like to thine own self be true.
(04:31):
And my dad would often say,keep your nose clean.
And I think what he meant was,stay out of trouble, I love you.
Because he knew I would be arisk taker and I would be probably
engaged in some riskycommunication, maybe telling somebody,
maybe telling a teacher what Ireally thought.
But they both preached thevalue of education, diplomacy and
(04:54):
assertiveness.
So I got good advice fromthose two.
I love that.
And assertiveness can be good.
It's good to scoop in somediplomacy with it so that we don't
leave people, you know,shocked at what we've said or more
importantly, how we've said it.
And there are so many studiesthat support humans care, as you
well know, more about tonethan word choice.
(05:15):
You can say a lot with your tone.
I admit sometimes when I'm not pleased.
If I ran you back a transcriptof the words I chose, I could say
all I said was, but thenagain, when I listen into the tone,
I know that maybe I'm notbeing as forthright as I could be.
There might be some passiveaggressiveness in there.
(05:36):
Yeah, I learned that early onin life.
It was really funny when Iremember changing out of the parish
into and more of an executive role.
I would go have difficultconversations with congregations
and I come back and say, well,how did it go?
And I would read every recantto them, know, recall the conversation.
And like, you said that andyou're still here.
(05:56):
I'm like, well, yeah, itdidn't come across the.
I mean, the transcript doesn'ttell you how the tone went, but they
took it really well.
And they were like, I don'tknow how you get away with that.
So you're right.
Tone does matter.
Who do you think taught you todo that?
So well, Reverend Doctor.
Reverend Doctor.
Well, thank you.
(06:17):
I think my.
I think my mom was a truth teller.
I think what I learned from myMom's way of truth telling was she
would say in a way thatsometimes annoyed people and they
turned tuned it out.
So I learned to say the samething, but in a way either with a
smile or something where itwas received without the negative
(06:39):
pushback that she might have gotten.
So I learned to say it withoutgetting the pushback she got.
Excellent.
I'm very blessed to have ateam of eight that works with me.
We're based in Fort Wayne,Indiana, and we serve clients all
around the United States.
And something that some of ourexecutive coaching clients are trying
(06:59):
on for size is if they havesomething challenging to say or to
ask a difficult subject tobring up, we counsel them to use
some preamble.
You know, something like, now,Keith, I know you're doing your best
and you mean well, and I havesome feedback to share today that
I think will help this teamcontinue to grow.
(07:20):
So we're learning.
I'm learning.
And as I'm learning it, I'mtrying to teach our clients, sometimes
stating your intention orusing a preamble is the best thing
you can do so that the ego ofthe recipient of your behavior isn't
stunned, shocked, or theperson doesn't get defensive or on
the offensive right away.
We really have to.
Emotions are such a big partof communication.
(07:42):
It doesn't make any sense totry to pretend that they aren't right.
So I like to speak to othersemotions, try to honor them.
When I'm in, when I'm being mybest self as a communicator, I always
take into consideration howmight the other be feeling, which
is also a good way to human.
If we want to make human averb, you know, that is taking care
(08:03):
of others.
And in the long run, there'sthat virtuous circle and it ends
up taking care of you and your career.
I've also had to learn becauseI work a lot cross culturally with
other people from othercountries, that communication is
different depending upon whatculture you're coming from.
So I remember we had, I wasworking with an Asian individual
(08:25):
before and I learned thatsometimes in Asian culture they will
say yes to avoid conflict,having no intention of actually following
through on whatever you justasked of.
So it was like, oh, this isimportant to know because you go,
well, why didn't you show up?
Why didn't this happen?
It's like we had a deal, wewere going to meet, we were going
to do this collaboration.
(08:46):
How do you then find outwhether yes means yes yes or yes
means no?
Yes.
I talk more with them to makesure that we're okay with this.
And this is not just mepushing something on people, especially
with certain groups.
I also learned that people whoare French, when you're doing feedback
with them, they're used tocoming from a culture where they
(09:09):
don't get very many, very many compliments.
So they're used to negative.
So in our culture, when wetend to do feedback, and we do, let
me tell you three things.
You're doing well, and the onething that you're not doing well.
Well, if you come from aFrench culture, you go, wow, I got
three compliments.
And really in America, thosethree things were just kind of throw
(09:30):
away, just so we could get tothe one really important thing.
But if I'm just thinking aboutmy French roots, and perhaps this
is why sometimes I missopportunities, or I've been accused
of my feedback being tooblunt, mostly with loved ones, especially
with family, and less so withclients and college students, etc.
(09:54):
And I wonder if that's not inmy nature to get to just the heart
of the matter, but it, if itshuts the other person down, then
we're going nowhere.
So I'm.
I think every year that I getolder, I refine something else about
my communication.
And if I'm lucky enough tolive into my 90s, maybe I will be
a very, very good communicator.
(10:14):
But it's a lifelong effort,don't you think it is?
Certainly not.
You're always.
Yeah, for sure.
So what inspired you?
Let's get into your book towrite Communicate with Courage.
I was having so much fun doingcustom training, design and then
presenting training in topicsall over communication, all over
(10:37):
the whole field ofcommunication, presentation skills,
conflict management, businesswriting, performance reviews, stress
and change management.
Those the good stuff, I thinkthat really can make a career and
a life happier and more successful.
And those companies that hireus to do that, it's 10 people, it's
30 people, it's 300 people, orit might be an auditorium of 2,000
(11:00):
people.
But I didn't have a way to getthese ideas out to a larger audience.
And I think we need to knowabout these hidden challenges in
communication.
I just wanted to offer what Icould offer.
This is my area of subjectmatter expertise.
And I want the world to knowthat wherever they start, they can
make more of a difference ascommunicators than they probably
(11:22):
realize.
So I wanted a book that wouldbe fun, interesting, there'd be some
humor, there might be some tears.
They're all real life storiesabout myself and other Real life
people.
And the idea was we keep itshort to about 140 pages so that
it's something you could readin two hours or you could dip in
and try the pro moves, as Icall them, and the exercises at the
(11:44):
end of each chapter.
And I'll give you a quickdefinition of pro moves.
Pro moves are small things wecan do as communicators that the
average bear tends to miss.
They walk on by not thinking,oh, there's an opportunity for praise.
Or I could have asked aclarifying question or forgot to
say thank you for that favor.
So little things that canreally lift a person up and that
(12:07):
can also improve our own reputation.
I call those pro moves andthey're sprinkled throughout the
book.
I'm really just trying toshare and, you know, not hide my
light under a bushel basket.
I guess you could say I like that.
We all want to be better communicators.
Is there a major thing wecould do right away today to be a
(12:29):
better communicator?
If there's just we.
We just have one thing we wantto improve on, what would be that
one thing we should all do tobe a better communicator?
Let's be brave, all of us, andask someone we trust, how did I come
across just now?
How did you perceive that?
Is there something I could dodifferently or better, in your opinion,
(12:52):
without giving constructivefeedback in return?
Invite others to tell you whatthey see that you do well as a communicator
and then something that youcould, in their opinion, sometimes
do better.
And you get a in the moment,real life, real talk example of how
your behavior impacts othersas a communicator.
(13:13):
And if you can keep your mindopen and keep the wall down so you
can hear what people aresaying, you'll learn at least how
to communicate better.
And what's going well withthat one person that you asked.
And our coaching clients allaround the us are taking on challenges
like that, but they go ask 12or 13 people.
(13:35):
Sounds like being vulnerable.
It's kind of sounds like it does.
We call it the feedback challenge.
Yeah.
But you know, the more we arevulnerable, the more we become strong.
And everybody likes, I thinkeverybody likes to say, Keith, well,
nobody's perfect.
No one's perfect.
You have to have grace, giveothers grace, use grace with yourself.
(13:58):
But then secretly, I don'tknow about you, but secretly I expect
my performance to be perfect.
Or sometimes I get intonegative self talk about it.
So I say this, that Iunderstand humanity is about imperfection,
but Then I have a differentexpectation of myself.
And when I do that, I'm alsounkind and unfair sometimes to others
(14:19):
because they can't reach myexpectations either.
And this is hard to say, butthis is some hard work and self awareness.
And this comes from askingothers how they perceive right how
I'm communicating with them.
Especially in times ofconflict where there's great growth
to be gained.
If we could just stop runningaway from conflict and also stop
rushing to get in there to winusing more collaboration, compromise
(14:44):
and the five styles ofhandling human conflict are listed
in the book explained.
And ideally we'd all get goodat all five.
So that would be another tip.
I would say that would be agood takeaway for folks who might
read the book.
You talk about those fivestyles of your clients you've worked
with.
Is there one style that seemsto be more most challenging for people?
(15:05):
There are two.
Avoidance.
And that is when we deny thesituation exists or we delay dealing
with it.
Kind of magical thinking, hopeit's going to resolve itself.
We're all adults.
Well, probably not, but that'sprobably good for my business because
we teach a lot of conflictmanagement skills.
So those teams often callthat's great.
(15:26):
But as supervisors, especiallyif someone is a manager in their
workplace or their, theirplace of volunteerism or their church,
then you really do have to bebrave and bring up dysfunctional
behavior or divisions amongteam members that does fall to you.
So, so I encourage, I'mfinding myself encouraging thousands
(15:47):
of clients over the last 25years to stop with the conflict avoidance
and only avoid when you reallyhave to.
When you need a third party orwhen now is not the time because
you're too angry to seestraight or you need to gather data.
Okay, avoid.
But don't avoid it forever ifit needs to come up.
And the other dangerous whenoverused style is competing.
(16:10):
And that is to take the mowalk in with a modus operandi of
I will win and you will lose.
And this is the person whohates to be wrong and often can't
apologize easily.
And I am describing myself inmany ways because I'm pretty competitive
and I think I was raised to bethat way.
So now I look foropportunities to accommodate more.
(16:32):
But a good personalityassessment is a wonderful, a wonderful
idea and a great investment in oneself.
Something that is valid andreliable statistically.
And then you go through with atrained practitioner to help, hopefully
to help you understand yourpersonality report.
Life changing.
Life changing for me the firsttime I did it about 15 years ago
(16:54):
and now we make sure everycoaching client does take our personality
assessment so we can see thestrengths and weaknesses we're dealing
with.
I used to tell my staff I waswrong once.
1973, August 13th.
So if it happens again, if ithappens again, I'll let you know.
But funny they say whathappened that day?
(17:18):
I'm like, I don't remember.
But it was something.
I know I want to know whathappened that day.
That's when you rolled throughthe stoplight instead of a full and
complete stop.
Keith, that was it.
Exactly one thing, the onething I've ever done wrong.
But so I'm curious as youthink about this book and I think
every organization couldbenefit from a book like this.
I always wonder how do we besttake a book like this into a organizational
(17:44):
setting and best utilize it toimprove communication.
You have like a suggestion ofif you're going to do this as a group,
how would you do that?
Oh sure.
Well, we love designing bookworkshops and so I've put on our
website.
Our website will probably bein your show notes but it's that
gladioconsulting.com thatFrench last name G L A D I E U x
(18:10):
like X Ray consulting.com andfolks could go there and just a few
months ago we created acompanion guide, myself and my designers
and we've got that out therefor free on the website currently.
And it takes you through howyou can apply what you're reading
to your own life for each chapter.
Another way to do it in agroup would be everyone choose one
(18:33):
exercise.
10 short chapters.
Choose one exercise, try itout in your own life, Come back to
the next Monday morningmeeting or your next training time
together and go around theroom and simply share.
Here's the exercise.
Here were the results thatopens eyes and you learn a lot from
your co workers just byspeaking what exercise you undertook.
(18:56):
How would you handle this in acorporation setting or organizational
setting where the leader is abad communicator but you want to
help them to grow?
Because I know we, we allmaybe know we need to do this, but
the person who needs to be theone to lead the spearhead, this is
really bad at it.
But how do we communicate tohim he's really bad or heard that
(19:19):
she's really bad at it.
I would look for some one onone time with that leader and I would
share what I observed and Iwould offer steps so that that person
could begin to immediatelyimprove their reputation and their
skill set.
You need both credibility anda strong skill set.
And if I could gain their trust.
And usually that comes prettyeasy because my motives are good.
(19:42):
You know, I really care abouttheir success and I think they can
really tell.
I might ask them to makeapologies or a verbal admittance
of some weaknesses that theyare working on.
And I was just today coachinga CEO at a medical practice.
And they have become aware oftheir shortcomings and how they've
(20:05):
interacted with employees.
Hasn't always been pictureperfect, of course.
And this person is now workinginto conversation.
Hey, I'm in coaching and I'mgetting a goal plan every month.
So you're going to see somenew behaviors from me because I realize
I need to grow too.
And I just know how.
I know how it feels to be an employee.
When someone with moreorganizational power is willing to
(20:26):
admit they have things to workon, I'd follow them anywhere.
And so that person is startingto realize, oh, after I told employees
that I am getting homework andworking on me and I want feedback,
it changed the tenor, the toneor the vibe of that workplace.
And it has to be sincerebecause whether you're 4 years old
(20:47):
or 104 years old, you can always.
There's, there's often a feeling.
Maybe not always, but there'soften a feeling when someone is trying
to pull the wool over your eyes.
So you.
I think I would go for, I'd gofor one on one, of course.
Yeah.
Because that's a heart toheart conversation.
I think that's important.
And I think again, having thecourage to communicate, even with
(21:07):
people who are above you, is abig part of your book.
Right, right.
It is, it is.
They need feedback too.
And if you do it with asincere intention to make the relationship
better or customer servicebetter or the workplace better, and
you can state that intention,it's going to help you along through
a tough conversation, as is remembering.
(21:27):
If you're complaining aboutanybody else's leadership style,
communication, whatever thatis, ask yourself, is that ever me?
Do I sometimes have that weakness?
And if then you see that inyourself, verbalize it.
I know, I do this too.
Right Is how I put it.
So here's what I'm doing toget around it.
(21:48):
Yeah.
So you have four hidden challenges.
Give us those four challengesand kind of give us a little summary
of those four.
Sure we have.
In my practice, I've seenpeople hide from risk and that's
when they're afraid to look,let us see who they are.
They're afraid to take risk.
Perhaps they've been punishedfor it, perhaps they haven't had
(22:08):
an easy time in childhood.
It would be nice if there werepeople around us that were helping
us to see our strengths.
We don't all have thatprivilege and blessing, so we can
start hiding from risk.
Defining to be right is whenyou're so darn sure that nobody's
even going to try to tell youdifferently because you make it impossible
(22:29):
to do so.
You will not say, h, you mightbe right or I might be wrong.
The third hidden challenge Iwrite about in the book is rationalizing
the negative.
And in that chapter, I take on pessimism.
And I ask our readers to thinklong and hard if they identify as
(22:50):
pessimists or if others wouldidentify them in that way, to perhaps
at any age in life, make achange and make a choice about optimism.
It's not the easy choice, butwe do need to spend some time, you
know, visualizing positiveoutcomes that might be possible,
or we may never see thosepositive outcomes, you know, and
(23:11):
plus, it can just be a realdrag to live with or work with someone
who is very aligned withpessimistic thinking.
So I offer some solutions inthe book to help readers deal with
that in loved ones or coworkers and in themselves.
And the fourth hiddenchallenge that I write about is called
settling for good enough.
And that's.
It's okay sometimes.
(23:32):
I mean, we all have to justchoose what is satisficing, what
will get me through here.
When we're going through toughtimes, it's hard to really give 110%.
But we can't always besettling for good enough if we want
to leave any kind of legacy inour families and in our teams as
communicators.
So I offer some steps forpeople to stop settling for good
(23:54):
enough and choose some thingsthat matter to work towards.
I love that.
How is writing this book andall the research you did, they put
behind this book change yourown communication style and personal
growth?
Well, I, you know, I'velaughed a bit because I must have
(24:15):
been out of my mind to say I'mgoing to write a book called Communicate
with Courage, Keith for therest of my life.
Now I have to communicate withcourage or I'm the lady who wrote
the book.
So it's certainly helping melook at myself and where I'm not
brave and some of those places within.
I am just not quite ready toface my failings and others.
(24:36):
I'm ready to go do the hardparts that really make relationships
better.
And I'm always asking foranother chance for Grace.
I'm asking for feedbackBecause I figure if I can get others
working along with me to helpme get better, and I'm helping them
get better at this, we're allgoing to win.
So I don't know if that's astraight answer to your question
(24:58):
or not.
How has it changed my life?
It's required me to be bravepersonally and professionally because
now pretty much everybodyknows about the book.
And it's required me to becomea better time manager because thankfully
the book has, I think it's got11 literary awards to date.
And that's fantastic and soexciting for myself and my team.
(25:19):
But it does mean moreinterviews and more time paying attention
to the book.
At the same time, I want to beteaching and training and coaching
just as much as I always was.
So there's a bit of sort of Ifeel like I'm raising a book and
it's two years old now.
And I'm also managing myconsulting and training practice.
(25:40):
So I've, I've had to practicegood time management.
So let's talk about your consulting.
Give me an real lifeillustration of someone who has benefited
from your consulting andbecome a better communicator.
Okay.
Well, this morning's I havetwo coaching sessions before this
interview and they both ranabout 90 minutes.
(26:02):
And that's, that's about wherewe like them.
It's a deep discussion ofwhat's going well and what could
be better in one's work life.
And the first was with a highranking CEO who is finding their
voice in dealing withchallenging board members who aren't
likely to take responsibility,sometimes don't follow through.
(26:23):
You know how it goes.
Sometimes they get staffworried about things when we don't
want them talking to staffabout things.
There are just things going onand this person really needed to
find their courage andremember that they are just as valuable
as anyone else in the roomwhen asking for behavior change diplomatically.
And then the very next sessionwas with someone 40, 30 or 40 years
(26:47):
younger who is anadministrative assistant.
And that person, one of theirgoals for this month was to research
different colleges that mightbe of interest and enroll.
And so we were able tocelebrate in the second month of
coaching that that was completed.
And we're also looking at someself talk with that person and they're
(27:07):
documenting for me and forthemselves the kind things they say
to themselves and the unkind things.
And then we are going to takethat list of unkind self talk and
in the next session we'll seewhat's true and what's not true.
And we will cross off and letgo anything that's from the past
or was a past label,stereotype, whatever that might be,
(27:28):
that was a sign.
That's not true.
That's not helping their self esteem.
So I guess what I love aboutthe job is all of the different types
of humans.
Military, academia, industry,manufacturing, health care, banking,
nonprofits, some churches.
Not often, but sometimeschurches call and what they're looking
for is often personalityassessment and one on one or team
(27:51):
coaching to help them leadbetter together.
I love the diversity, I wouldsay, in the clients.
So there's a lot of goodthat's happening every day.
It's very addictive.
Cool.
Are you discovering thatthere's a difference with communication
based on age?
I.
I noticed that maybe youngerpeople, because of the social media
(28:12):
aspects, maybe struggle withcommunication a little bit more than
an older generation might.
Are you noticing some of that?
I would say I'm noticing less.
I think it's a struggle insome way for all of us.
I'm noticing more differencesin personality types and what the
different personality stylesare challenged by.
(28:34):
And that holds prettyconsistent across those.
We could, if we wanted to saythere are four main human personality
styles.
There's a lot more, of course,that goes into a person's way of
interacting with the world.
But just to start at that30,000 foot level, I see more differences
among personalities than I doage or gender.
(28:56):
So what whether forpersonality types, I'm just kind
of curious.
Yeah, yeah.
People call them differentthings, but there are only four.
So it depends on whatassessment you're looking at.
I like the terminology.
I believe it's.
Psychologist David Merrillcame up with these four and I think
of it as driver, kick butt andget things done.
Person expressive.
(29:16):
And the expressive is veryrelational and gregarious, outgoing,
could talk to anyone about anything.
Then there's the amiable.
And all of us have some of allfour styles.
But the person who has a lotof amiable in their style, they really
seek to keep the peace, keepthings cool, make sure everybody's
happy.
And analysts value data andmetrics very much.
(29:39):
And they're thinking logicallyand they're thinking process improvement
and research.
And so it's really nice iswhen we do personality assessment
with an entire team, whetherthat's 30 people or three people,
we can share the graphs andshare the reports and look and understand.
Wow.
The way this person isinteracting comes from DNA which
(30:00):
is not changeable and largelyfrom upbringing and life experience.
And our upbringing is also not changeable.
Now we can Gain and learn new skills.
But it really serves us wellto understand at least the four human
social styles or personalitiesand then the pros and cons of having
a lot of any of those four.
(30:21):
Yeah, it's been fun.
I've taken every.
Have you?
Well, Myers, you know thyself.
Yeah, that's right.
I keep thinking it's going tochange, but it never really does.
Um, well, it might be changinga little and sometimes it's that
3% change that can reallychange your life.
Well, I know I went from ahigh D and the Myers Briggs to a
(30:42):
high I, which was aninteresting shift.
But they're related becausethose are the two most risk taking
and go get it styles, the mostachievement oriented styles.
So they're very closelywedded, I discovered.
And you're changing the world.
I mean, you know, you don't.
I don't know.
When you rest, you have a lotof roles.
(31:03):
That's what my wife asked me.
Yeah, well, you know, rest isnot our favorite thing.
I'm also, I'm also di ordriver expressive.
And I find it hard to watch togo to a movie theater for two hours
and watch a movie.
My mind is like, you know, howmany people you could be helping
or emailing or you could bewriting training.
It's.
It's.
(31:23):
Sometimes it's hard for us tobe still, right?
Yes, exactly.
I have to put music on so I'mnot thinking which is love it, love
it.
Right.
Or watch some ridiculous TV show.
I'm curious, so what's nextfor you?
You've gotten this and you'restarting to gain momentum.
Is there a new book on Horizon?
(31:44):
There is.
To communicate with love orsomething else besides courage?
No, because I'm still.
All these ideas that I put inthe book, a lot of them were fresh
and new from my five yearwriting process.
And now folks are wantingkeynotes and workshops based on the
book.
So I'm still getting to knowhow I want to teach what's in the
(32:06):
book and getting the book, theword out about the book.
So I'm not ready to writeanother book yet, but I am.
I did just hire another teammember and she's a real go getter.
And so I think we're going to.
I'm excited to see what myteam and I will do this year.
We're out to change lives andchange organizations by helping people
(32:27):
be better communicators andleaders with humor.
A dose of humor as we look at ourselves.
So like a community, I think the.
Doors, you know, I keepbelieving that the right clients
come around at the right timeand that has worked out now for almost
for at least 20, 25 years.
So, you know, I'm just hopingthat the phone keeps ringing, Keith,
(32:47):
and that people bring theirkeep opening their hearts to us and
opening their organizations tous so we can come be guides as people
learn.
So as a consultant, how wouldyou counsel someone who wants to
be a person who communicateswith courage?
What would you say are thefirst steps they need to work on
to do that?
(33:09):
Well, we've talked aboutgetting feedback about how you come
across.
I would say make sure you, youdeeply understand and own your own
unique mission statement.
So what do you love to do?
And I know no job is all rosesand fun and sunshine, but what do
you love to do?
And then who do you serve bydoing it?
(33:29):
How are they changed as aresult of knowing you?
Once you figure that out, whatyour niche is, how you're going to
contribute, what people willbe saying about you at your memorial
service, when your body liesdown and takes its last breath, what
do you want people to sayabout you?
And then once you know that,then the doors start to open and
(33:51):
also fears will start to come up.
And that's when we begin totry to articulate or define the fear
so that we can work through it.
And hopefully with a good amentor, a guide or a coach can help
with that or a good friend, anaccountability partner.
So live for your Know yourmission and if you'd like help figuring
out what your unique missionis, back to our website gladio consulting.com
(34:16):
hit free tools one of the tabsat the top and down, a bunch of one
to two page.
I think they're fun andcolorful, e fillable, downloadable.
We want to be a service that'sone of the things you can grab from
our website, the uniquemission exercise.
And that keeps me goingthrough good times and bad to remember
(34:38):
what I've said about myself ismy unique mission.
And some people have more thanone and we wear different hats.
But thinking generally now asa communicator, what will you be
known for?
And that will open some doors.
So you've segue into my otherfavorite question.
What do you want your legacyto be?
(34:59):
Oh, I think I want it to bewhat it is becoming and that is that
I see people's potential.
I will meet them where theyare, I will hold them to fair, high
standards and hopefullywelcome their feedback in the process.
(35:20):
It's an honor to be on thejourney with the people I get to
help.
They let me see their heart, Ilet them see mine.
And we celebrate the wins thatcome up from the goals in communication.
And we try to laugh about thefailures, realizing the failures
are the best stories whenyou're teaching somebody something
(35:41):
later.
And also they help you.
If you're going to take a riskand fail as a communicator, it's
certainly going to help youempathize with the rest of us who
take risks and mess up.
I had a pretty large keynotelast month.
There were 1500 people in theroom in Denver.
Grant writers, a grantwriters, the Grant Summit, Grant
(36:03):
Writers Conference.
And the keynote was reallygoing very well.
I got to chat, was doinghighlights from each chapter, speaking
for a little over an hour.
I got to chapter nine and Ithink it was that Denver air, being
the mile high city, all of thedryness of living inside the conference
center for several days, Idon't know.
But I lost my voice completelyand I was embarrassed.
(36:27):
I tried it.
It didn't sound good.
It's being broadcast alsoonline to people who paid to receive
the keynote.
And I remember I turned myback just for a second to the audience,
usually a no, no.
And I sort of shook my handsup at the sky.
I just wanted them to know.
And also I was thinking,guardian angels.
(36:48):
Guardian angels.
Do you not see me in thissuit, in these heels with all of
these people?
Some angel, maybe guardianangel ran up to the stage with a
basket of cough drops.
I popped a couple in, tookanother sip.
This didn't take long.
This was maybe three minutes.
It felt like three hours to me.
And I got half my voice backand I finished and you know, the
(37:11):
audience was excited.
I think that I got to the end,but it sure wasn't what I planned.
And, and I think of myself asa pro.
And I was shocked that myvoice gave up on me.
We can't, we can't preventthese things from happening.
But it's going to make me abetter teacher and more empathic
when I'm working with someonewho fears public speaking.
Right, right.
(37:31):
Exactly.
Been there.
So I love to ask you this as well.
Where can people connect withyou again to make sure we can find
you and get some of your, getyour book, Communicate with Courage.
Where can I buy that?
Everywhere, happily.
It's available on Amazon andBook, you know, every bookseller
(37:53):
that you might be a fan of,you can go to that bookseller.
You can get it on our website,gladio consulting.com but I do hope
folks will give me a call if Ican help.
My cell phone number is 260-450-4202.
My business card says eightdays a week because I love the Beatles
and I love rock and roll, butalso because it's okay to call outside
(38:16):
of.
I definitely feel like I ampursuing my passion.
So 8 to 5 doesn't apply very often.
And then I do a newsletter andit's pretty fun, I hear, to receive.
I think people are enjoying it.
I always include a music videothat ties into communication somehow
and I write it four times ayear and you can sign up for that.
(38:39):
It's called Breakdown, namedafter a Tom Petty song.
Actually it's called Breakdownand that's available on the website
along with back issues thatpeople might enjoy the free tools
I think they can go to linksto research and links to articles
and small things that can helpwith a job search or managing a conflict
or working on listening skillsor writing or speaking.
(39:01):
Well, we try to put good stuffin there for free every quarter.
That's awesome.
As we wrap up our phenomenalconversation, what key takeaways
you want to leave with theaudience from our conversation?
I want to remind everyone thatthere's no one that you're going
to meet in this lifetime thatis more or less valuable than you
at the soul level.
(39:21):
At least that is my deep belief.
And once we get that down,that we're all in this journey together
here to to improve and better ourselves.
Celebrate our strengths,celebrate our failures.
Because we were brave to takea risk, lift others up and we start
to see ourselves as equally valuable.
A lot of those communicationfears will fall away.
(39:44):
Well, Michelle, thanks so muchfor what you do and helping us be
better communicators.
So continue the hard work ofmaking us all learn to communicate
with each other better.
You too.
I'm such a fan of your work.
Keep it up.
Thank you.
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