April 20, 2025 • 37 mins
The salient point of today's discussion centers on the imperative for enhanced leadership training within the Roman Catholic Church, particularly for clergy. My esteemed guest, Bernadette Kime, who boasts over two decades of leadership experience in the Church and recently earned her PhD in instructional management and leadership, articulates the critical need for equipping church leaders with the requisite skills to navigate the complexities of their roles. We delve into the dichotomy of spiritual guidance versus administrative responsibilities that priests must balance, and the challenges posed by inadequate formal training in seminaries. Moreover, Bernadette shares her insights on the importance of mentorship and the need for clergy to embrace a mindset open to change and adaptation in response to the evolving demands of their congregations. Through our dialogue, we illuminate the pressing necessity for structural reforms that prioritize leadership development and support within the Church, aiming to foster a healthier, more effective environment for faith leadership.
In our engaging discussion with Bernadette, we traverse the landscape of church leadership, highlighting her extensive background and the recent completion of her PhD in instructional management and leadership. This academic achievement serves as a springboard for our exploration of the critical competencies required for effective church leadership. Bernadette elucidates the necessity for a harmonious blend of spiritual guidance and administrative acumen, positing that many clergy are often overwhelmed by the demands of management, which can obscure their pastoral mission. This theme resonates throughout the conversation as we examine the delicate balancing act that church leaders must perform in their daily responsibilities.
Bernadette shares her personal journey, reflecting on formative influences that shaped her understanding of leadership within the church. Her father's resilience and the mentorship of a dedicated nun inspired her to embrace challenges and pursue a career in ecclesiastical leadership, despite the obstacles she faced as a woman in a predominantly male-dominated institution. These narratives underscore the vital importance of role models and mentorship in cultivating the next generation of church leaders. The dialogue then shifts to Bernadette's research findings, revealing a consensus among clergy regarding the necessity of leadership training, juxtaposed against the stark reality of insufficient resources and initiatives to facilitate this development.
As we delve deeper, the conversation addresses the pervasive issue of clergy burnout and the systemic inadequacies within seminary training programs. Bernadette advocates for a reimagined approach to pastoral education that integrates practical leadership skills with theological training, thereby equipping new pastors with the tools necessary to navigate the complexities of modern church life. The discussion culminates in a call to action for church leadership to prioritize the development of supportive frameworks that empower clergy while fostering a culture of collaboration and shared responsibility within congregations. Bernadette's insights illuminate the path forward for church leaders seeking to thrive in their vocations while remaining true to their spiritual commitments.
Takeaways:
- Bernadette has over two decades of experience in leadership within the Roman Catholic Church, emphasizing the necessity for skilled leadership in church positions.
- She completed her PhD in 2023, focusing on instructional management and leadership, particularly in the context of church leadership.
- Her research revealed a strong desire among priests for leadership training, highlighting an openness to change within the church.
- Effective church leadership requires a delicate balance between spiritual guidance and practical...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:00):
My guest today, Bernadette,has over 20 years experience working
in leadership positions withinthe Roman Catholic Church.
In 2023, she completed her PhDat Robert Morris University in instructional
management and Leadership.
Her primary area of focus ischurch leadership, specifically ensuring
that those positions ofleadership possess the skills necessary
(01:21):
to lead.
In addition, Burdette is anadjunct instructor for St.
Madrid Seminary in herpermanent Deacon Deconant Formation
program, course facilitatorfor University of Dayton Virtual
Learning Community for FaithFormation, and adjunct faculty for
Ohio Dominican University intheir theological department.
(01:42):
We welcome her to the podcast.
To the podcast.
Well, Bernadette, welcome tothe podcast.
How are you doing today?
Oh, pretty good.
Trying to stay warm in thiswinter weather.
Aren't we all?
So I'm going to ask you myfavorite question, ask all my guests.
What's the best piece ofadvice you ever received?
(02:04):
Well, I think for my father,embrace challenges.
He was always one that says,never shy away from challenges.
And when things come your way,that's unexpected, just embrace them
and, you know, and look atthem as opportunities to grow.
Not, not something to fret or fear.
Oh, I love that.
That's so good because, youknow, challenges will come again.
(02:24):
Somebody else said about thesame, kind of along those same lines
of, you know, life gives you lemons.
What do you do with it?
Do you make lemonade or do youjust suck on a sour lemon?
You know, so for sure.
Sure for sure.
So I'm curious as you thinkabout your life and people who have
been important to you, whowere some people who maybe served
to inspire you or be a mentorfor you along your journey.
Well, I would have to say, youknow, given the advice I just shared
(02:47):
with you from my father, thathe's one of them.
You know, he came from humble beginnings.
He never had a more than ahigh school diploma, but yet he became
very successful in the federalgovernment in the mine safety industry.
So he was very, you know,driven and he didn't let obstacles
get in his way.
And even though he had limitedformal education, he really, you
(03:09):
know, inspired me to just try,strive for the, to be the best and,
you know, in the church as well.
He was always either mowingthe lawn at the church or he became
active in boards, schoolboards for the diocese, mission boards
for the diocese.
So I always saw him active asthe church being a center of his
(03:29):
life.
And, you know, also along withthat, you know, when I was trying
to decide what career path Iwanted to go into after college,
I did a volunteer year and inthat year they assigned me to A small
church in rural West Virginia,believe it or not.
Never thought I'd come fullcircle and end up back in West Virginia.
But there was this little nun,little religious sister running the
(03:51):
parish, and she just had so many.
You know, the people loved her.
She did a great job in keepingpeople, you know, organized.
She'd go out and evangelizeand was committed to social justice.
And she inspired me to say,hey, hey, you know, I could do that.
You know, even though I'm awoman, even though I'm, you know,
I can still be a leader in theCatholic Church, just in a different
(04:14):
sort of way.
And that sort of led me in mycareer path that, you know, has sustained
me to this day.
That's great.
So I see you just completedyour PhD.
Tell us a little bit aboutwhat your PhD area of study was.
Well, it was actually interesting.
I was never really looking fora PhD, believe it or not.
And, you know, we wereactually at the diocese, know, and
(04:35):
going through some reallytough times.
As you know, the CatholicChurch has experienced a lot of scandal.
We had a bishop who was doingimproper things on many levels, and
he was ousted.
And I was very, very down.
I was.
I went through those stages ofgrief when you mourn and you get
angry and.
And, you know, and then I gota postcard in the mail that said,
come and learn about theInstructional Management and Leadership
(04:58):
program at Robert MorrisUniversity in Pittsburgh.
And I'm like, why me?
Why did this come to me?
But as I started thinkingabout, I'm like, you know, who knows
more about dysfunctionalleadership at this moment than me?
And I was living through it.
And I said, rather thangrieving and being angry and emotional,
do something productive.
So I said, you know, I want tostudy leadership.
(05:18):
I knew when I went into theprogram that I wanted to do something
on church leadership becausethat was what I was passionate about
at the time.
But then, you know, as Istarted getting into the program
and meeting with mentors andstuff, they're like, you have to
stop being angry.
You have to stop letting youremotions take over, and you have
to look at this critically and academically.
So I had a come to Jesusmoment, and I bracketed all of my,
(05:40):
you know, anger and emotionand said, you know, this is a real
problem.
And the more I started talkingto people in different diet in our
surrounding dioceses, the moreI realized, you know, this is an
issue that.
That really needs somereflection and some study and some,
you know, and so that's what I did.
So, you know, three yearslater, you know, I got my PhD and
(06:01):
my dissertation was on RomanCatholic priests, the need for leadership
and management training.
And it was a really proud accomplishment.
I know I did my research, Icame across some surprising results.
I came in with, you know, thishypothesis of what I was trying to
investigate, but found somethings that I was not expecting.
(06:21):
So what was the mostsurprising part of your research?
Well, I think the surprisingthing was there's that desire for
leadership and management training.
Everyone knows that it's a problem.
Um, the seminaries know it's a problem.
The, the seminarians, youknow, knew it was a problem.
The, the priests knew it was a problem.
(06:42):
So the awareness of the problem.
But how are, are, are thereinitiatives to help solve the problem?
And there were, you know, thatthere are programs out there, leadership
development programs and toolsfor priests.
Um, you know, and there'sdifferent ideas that were floating
through.
So I thought that that wasvery surprising that there's there
(07:03):
while they admit that there'sa problem, there's an openness to
change and to realize thatpriests do need to, and church leaders
do need training and they doneed to continue to grow and develop.
And that was somethingpositive, but that was something
that I found.
I know when I work a lot,being a pastor myself, we struggle
(07:26):
with the idea are we leadersor are we shepherds?
And I'm sure you have the sameissue in your, in the Catholic Church
as well.
What do you believe are someof the core skills that priests and
pastors need to be effectivechurch leaders?
Well, I think you're, you're right.
There are two different set of skills.
There's a shepherding, there'sthe, the spiritual side and there's
(07:51):
helping them grow spirituallyand close to God.
But then there's also thoseday to day tasks of being a leader
and building up thecongregation and meeting the temporal
needs of the parish and thechurch and making sure it funct.
So I think there's thatbalance where I think that priests
tend to be so bogged down inthat leadership management, that
(08:13):
day to day administrative workthat they forget about the spiritual
side.
So I think you're right.
It's a delicate tightrope towalk that they have to be spiritual
and realize that they'releading people to God and that's,
and to help them to spread themission of the church.
On the other hand, they haveto realize how to juggle those other
(08:34):
responsibilities.
I think it's, it's a balancingact and they have to.
You know, what I'm going tosuggest is that they do more, more
delegating and more discerningand looking at people in their parish
that can help them with theseadministrative tasks because they
want to do spiritual things.
You know, one of the biggestfindings in my research was that
(08:56):
priest said, you know, Ididn't sign up to be a janitor.
I didn't sign up to be amaintenance man.
I didn't sign up to be a.
A finance budget planner.
I signed up to be a spiritualadvisor, to walk with people on their
journey to Christ and to beprayerful and to be there at deathbeds
and to be there for funerals.
And instead I'm bogged down,you know, with these other things.
(09:17):
And, you know, so that'sreally tough.
And that's a challenge that Ithink is unique to church leaders.
You're right.
And I think the thing Inoticed too is, you know, in my seminary
training, we had one class onpastor as administrator.
So it was a three hour class.
It was in our fourth year.
And at that point you justwere thinking about, where's your
(09:39):
first.
Your first assignment?
You're going to be administrative?
Not necessarily.
But we didn't learn how to run meetings.
We didn't learn how to set upbudgets or even advise leaders to
do that.
How do you.
What strategies have youfigured out that work well to help
pastors develop skills intheir members?
(10:00):
Because that's important.
If you want to delegate, yougot to make sure your people are.
How do you help develop thoseleaders around you?
Well, I think you have to be.
Important thing is the.
In the Catholic Church is gift discernment.
You have to be.
The pastor has to be attentiveto every gift that the parapariushioners
have.
I know that's a big task withlarge congregations, but, you know,
(10:21):
with the smallercongregations, especially where they're
most in need of theseresources, they need to look at the
parish and say, who do I havethat's really come out?
And really, you know, I canreally trust, you know, like, if
you have a bank president inyour parish is your congregation,
why don't you make him part ofyour financial advisor and help you
with the finances?
(10:42):
You know, but being attentiveto the gifts that people bring to
the table, you know, you justhave to be very observant.
And I think, you know, comingback to the spiritual side, you have
to be really attentive to theHoly Spirit.
You know, I believe that'scritical, and that's something that
I've been really passionateabout working with, listening and
just Listening, be observant.
(11:02):
I think we're so busy in thisculture, do, do, do, do, do.
But we're not stopping andstepping back and looking around
and listening to the voice ofthe spirit, which, which takes time
and patience.
But I think there's, there'screative ways that, that pastors
can do this and you know, itcan be effective.
But you're right, you know,about that.
That was.
I chuckled when you said aboutthe seminary training because that's
(11:25):
what I found in my, in mydissertation research that you know,
they aren't, they are givenone course on pastoral administration
and you know, while ideallyfor at least for the Catholic Church
with the shortage of priestsis to have the priest, the priest
like be an associate.
I don't know what you all havein your, in your congregation if
(11:46):
you have, you know, where thepath the priest is a newly ordained
priest and a minister and theywalk alongside a seasoned priest
and they're at the parishlearning on the job training.
But they're not solely responsible.
You know, now we have guyscoming out of seminary and then they
make them in charge of aparish and they don't know the first
thing about the managementside and the leadership side.
(12:07):
And you know, and that, that's unfortunate.
So I don't know how we do that.
You know, seminary rectorsI've talked to said well we have
to cram it all in.
We have to get so manytheology, so many scriptures, so
many philosop because we don'thave time for one more course.
So if they're not getting thatin seminary and they're, they're
being ordained and going rightinto that, that parish setting, you
(12:28):
know, what a, what we're doinga disservice to them.
Yeah.
At our model we, during ourseminary training, early years, the
first two years we areassigned to a local parish for the,
on Sunday morning.
So we're kind of fieldwork students.
But you're really typicallyonly there maybe on Sunday, maybe
there's an event during theweek, but you're typically just there
(12:48):
on the weekend.
Yeah.
So you don't really learn asmuch during that time.
On when we have a year ofvicarage where you go off and spend
a year at a church where youmay learn more of hands on things.
Yeah, again that's kind of hitand miss depending upon the supervisor,
the church you're in and a lotof our past because we have the same
kind of a shortage.
(13:08):
Their first call is not as an associate.
Their first call is tosometimes a dual parish or even a
smaller parish, Very fewbecome associates.
So you're right.
With that in mind, though, howdo we.
And the seminary is strugglingwith that too.
How do you balance the formaleducation with experiential learning?
Because we don't.
(13:29):
If you're not in a place wheresomeone comes along, here's how you
run a meeting, here's how you lead.
We had no classes when I wasdisseminating on stewardship.
And you're supposed to walkin, all of a sudden, know how to
do stewardship in a congregation.
So, you know, how do youbalance all that?
And that's the challenge.
And that's what I think weneed to look towards these other
(13:49):
programs.
We need to provide support forchurch leaders.
And I don't know if that's happening.
And I think you're right.
That need has to be met somehow.
And I think we have to look tooutside organizations and dioceses.
I know you all have moreformal structures as well, and maybe
(14:09):
we have to look at those forresources, because you're right,
the seminaries can't addanything more to their plate.
So where are they getting thiskind of training?
And I agree that it's achallenge that we need to be alerted
to and be aware for the future.
So it really kind of falls alot on the pastor himself.
(14:31):
So as you think about whatyou've been studying, how can leaders
stay adaptable and responsiveto the changing needs of their congregations?
Well, I think they have to beopen to change.
You know, and I.
We've.
We've talked about that before.
The change is very difficult,and people that are stuck in the
old model that the priest doeseverything and the father's in charge
(14:51):
of everything, you know, thatmindset can no longer operate in
this culture.
And we have to be able tothink outside the boat, like we said,
you know, outside the box.
My father used to say, youknow, get out the boat.
You know, God, Jesus calledPeter to get out of the boat and
to go into that unchartedterritory, which we need to do too,
but we need to prepare thepriest for that.
(15:12):
So if there's a way thatseminary can.
Can open them to this wholebigger picture of, you know, it's
the human side, theintellectual side, the.
The pastoral side, and openthem up to being adaptable and being
open to change.
I think the seminaries have tofoster that kind of attitude, because
when they get out, if they'renot adaptable, if they're not ready
(15:34):
to face changes, if they'renot ready to ask the big questions,
Then we're in, we're in forsome trouble.
What kind of after seminarysupport does the Catholic Church
provide for young pastors?
Well, and that, that, that Ithink is an issue as well.
There are outsideorganizations, like right now our
(15:56):
diocese has contracted aCatholic leadership institute.
And they're supposed, they,they have an outside consultant come
in, do leadership development,leadership coaching with our priests.
And I think it's thoseprograms right now that have the
best success rate.
But again, they're costly.
Does a bishop know about them?
You know, so they have somechallenges too.
(16:18):
So what I found in mydissertation research is the diocese
really needs to be that support.
Like, you know, where I work,I work for the liturgy side of it.
So if a priest has a questionabout liturgy, they call me and I'll
answer the question.
Well, we have an HR person, wehave a cfo, we have accountants.
So if they have issues, theyneed to be know who to call for help
(16:40):
and not to be afraid to askthose questions and to seek out those
resources.
But you're right, they have tobe made aware that they exist.
You know, and that's another challenge.
Yeah.
And especially with theshortage of pastors.
I know you, we're experiencinga lot of clergy burnout.
Are you guys also, how are youhandling worker wellness in your
(17:02):
train, your organization?
I don't think that we areaddressing that.
You know, we work them till you.
Right till they, you know,drop over.
I mean, unfortunately that'sthe case.
But again, if we learn how toparcel out those responsibilities
and don't expect them to bechief maintenance man, chief CFO,
chief, you know, and we letthem look to other people for those
(17:24):
administrative tasks then Ithink, and let them do that spiritual
side.
I think that is critical.
But you know, they have.
Pastors have to be willing tolet go and, and to delegate and like
you said, be able to.
Who can I trust?
You know, the trust is a big issue.
You know, if I trust thisperson with my finances and they
go run off or embezzle thefunding, you know, how am I, how.
(17:47):
So they're ultimately responsible.
So I think that level ofresponsibility can, you know, cause
burnout, because you're responsible.
You know, my dad used to tellme, you look at pre bishops, they're
in charge of multimilliondollar corporations with all that
money and finances, and yetthey don't know a thing about finances
and a thing about managing a corporation.
(18:08):
So you're right.
How do you balance theshepherding and the leadership?
How do you balance thepastoral and the Temporal.
So I think those arechallenges that the church has to
face.
And you're right, I don'tthink we have enough resources yet
to provide that.
And they are getting burnedout because they are expected to
do everything, be everythingto all people and they just can't.
They're human.
(18:29):
Yeah.
I think it hit me for realitycheck when I looked at the our state
form we had to fill out andsaid, who was like, who's basically
serving as the CEO of this organization?
And my name was on there like,wait a minute, if this goes wrong,
I'm the one going to prison.
So it's like we had to makesure, we make sure all of our T's
(18:52):
were crossed and our I's weredotted, like, I'm not going to prison.
But I'm sure if you're a youngseminarian with, you know, bright
eyed about sharing the gospeland teaching Jesus message and then
you realize, oh, I'm a CEO ofa corporation.
I'm in charge of these finances.
I have to run a meeting.
You're making me fire thesecretary because she's not showing
(19:12):
up.
You know, they're not, that'snot what they expected.
So, you know, my dad said insome sense we're setting them up
for failure.
And I think that's why a lotof them do experience burnout.
Because, hey, you know, Isigned on to be a spiritual leader.
I didn't sign off for all thisother, you know, stuff that went
along with being a leader.
I'm curious, what from yourstudies, did you have any recommendations
(19:35):
to improve the situation forthe church?
Well, I think, you know,having, making people aware of these
organizations trying to findleadership development opportunities
designed for clergy and forchurch leaders, even lay church leaders.
You know, I think having, youknow, having these, these opportunities,
(19:57):
making them available, I thinkalso doing, having that mentorship
as much as you can.
You know, we talked abouthaving them with the seasoned priest.
I think we have to set that up.
And they always said that waskey, you know, finding someone who's
been in the church for 30years and taken a new, you know,
and doing a better job withour seminarian program.
(20:17):
Like you said about thatpastoral year, they have a year where
they spend.
Don't just make them serve atthe altar.
Don't just make them, youknow, see if there's enough candles
and, you know, have them sitin a finance council meeting, have
them look at the budget, havethem, you know, be very, very intentional
about your seminary and thosepastoral years and those pastoral
(20:39):
experiences.
Because unless you Are, youknow, like you said, they might not
ever get exposed to that tillhey, I'm in this situation now, what
do I do?
So I think there's ways but wehave to be intentional about those
ways.
Yeah, I like that.
I kind of wish that there wasmore of an, of a guided process for
(21:00):
that year.
Like.
Yeah, the first, the firstquarter of your time because you,
when you just get to parish asa, in my vicarage year I was just
trying to figure out where,where the bathroom was, you know,
where my office was.
Yeah, but, but if you had itbroken down, where you spend a quarter
working, going to the finance meetings.
Where you spend a quarterworking with the school.
(21:21):
If you have a school.
Yeah, every, everything isintentional that you get these experience.
Because my, the biggest thingmy bishop did was we're going to
make sure you preach every,you know, preach a lot and you do
liturgy.
Yeah, same here.
You know, once I got that it's fine.
But what happens after I, youknow, I'd ever run a meeting or let
the person run a meeting, setup the, set up the agenda.
(21:42):
Yeah, we don't.
Yeah, I don't think that intentional.
Yeah, that's what I think hasto happen, you know.
Yeah.
Especially knowing that we'reshortage of having these mentor priests
because we don't have them anymore.
But having something beingintentional and then the diocese,
I think the diocese has to bea resource, has to be willing to
be there when the window, whenthe priest knows and, and the priest
(22:03):
has to know who the financeperson is at the diocese so they
can call them for help, youknow, or who's the HR person.
Oh yes, I need your helpbecause I'm having a staff issue
or I'm having a budgetingproblem or I need you to come in
and teach me or we have a, youknow, development office where we're
fundraising.
Like you said.
Teach me how to run astewardship campaign.
Teach me how to.
If they know who those peopleare, you know, they seek them, they
(22:24):
can seek them out.
So I think we have to just bemore intentional of supporting our
clergy and our church leadersin finding support for this leaders
their leadership role.
Oh, I love that.
I'm curious what have you.
Give me an example ofeffective leadership you've seen
and who kind of how that, howthat laid out.
(22:45):
Well, I think it's kind of interesting.
I'm going to have to givecredit to Pope Francis because you
know, he's very revolutionaryin his way of thinking.
But I'm not sure if you'refamiliar what the Catholic Church
has been doing is the Synod onSynodality, where he started in year
2000 with these consultationsfrom all across the country.
(23:06):
So he, we've.
He listened to the people inthe pew on the local level.
So we all gathered together,every diocese in the whole world
gathered together to listen tothe people, the grassroots.
And then we compiled, compiled all.
We compiled all those reports,and then they made their way up the
chain to Rome.
And he sat there and he hadthese, these meetings where people,
(23:28):
they sat down and they justtalked and actively listened and
actually actively heard whatthe, what is really, you know, happening.
And I think that was revolutionary.
So while.
And he opened it up to the.
These meetings in Rome weren'tjust bishops, which was the first
time this ever happened.
They were women and laity andyoung and old and sitting at the
(23:51):
same table.
So a cardinal might be sittingnext to a young person from another
country, and they listened toeach other and talk.
And I think that's one way, Ithink his effective leadership style
in the Synod on Synodality isa model for how we should be conducting
leadership and how we shouldbe synodal leaders.
And I know you all Lutheranslike to use that word, synod a lot.
(24:15):
And synod, though, meansjourneying together, walking together,
listening to one another.
And, you know, I think thatthat for me, is a great example of
what we should be doing andsupporting one another and listening
to each other.
That's interesting.
I don't think sometimeslaypeople's voice gets heard a lot,
especially in upperleadership, and I think it's really
(24:36):
important for that voice to be heard.
I also want to go back tosomething you said earlier, and I
want to kind of tap into your experience.
You talked about, and we havethe same struggle in our Lutheran
Church as well, is how do wefind and make use of women serving
in the church.
How have you kind of brokensome of those guidelines to help
(24:57):
people figure out?
Because in your church bodylike mine, women don't serve as pastors
and priests, but I thinkthey're underutilized in terms of
their ability to provide theirgifts and talents to the church.
How have you guys effectivelyor continue to kind of work to get
women more active in the church?
Well, and that's one of thethings that came out of the synod
(25:19):
that the Pope said that we dounder value women.
And I think for me, you know,I was, you know, when I was familiar
with other denominations likeLutheran and other ones that do have
women pastors, they would askme, they would Say, well, don't you
wish you had the, the caller?
And I said, no, I don't,because I can do things.
(25:40):
I just have to go in adifferent direction.
So, yes, it's been, it's beenhard, it's been challenging.
But like I said, there arerole models.
There are very inspirationalwomen like that sister that I told
you about that probablyinspired me to do what I do.
You know, I think I can be arole model for other people.
There are a lot of women whojust don't get recognized.
(26:00):
But I think, you know, thePope Francis has appointed women
to the, to hide the Romanoffices in the Vatican.
And I think that there's, there's.
We're opening the doors.
And I think, me, I do thinkmyself a revolutionary.
A lot of times, you know, Ihave to prove myself a little bit
harder.
You know, I'll be in a roomfull, full of men, you know, or I'll
(26:21):
be with priests and I'll be.
But, you know, I just, once Ishow them I know the theology of
the church.
I know leadership.
I'm very educated.
And when I speak that way, oh,we didn't know.
We're sorry, you know, they,the tables turn.
So, you know, where it's, It'sa challenge.
I think the church is gettingbetter at it, I think with the shortage
of priests.
While women's ordination will,you know, may never be, but, you
(26:45):
know, they are looking atmaybe women and says the act and
that, that could happen maybedown the road.
But I think women serving inleadership roles are critical.
The more we have the shortageof priests.
So you work in faith formationkind of tell me what, what, what
process is that, how that looklike in the Catholic Church?
I know we have some of that inour church body as well.
(27:08):
Well, actually, I'm in theliturgy world.
I'm the director of worship.
So my job is even morechallenging because you're right,
I'm dealing with priests.
I'm dealing with, you know,telling them how to run the liturgy.
And they're like, what are yougoing to tell us?
And then when I know myrubrics and I know my structure,
what's supposed to happen, andI know the theology behind it, they're
(27:29):
like, whoa, you know, so, youknow, we do have, we try to reduce,
have some formation.
I think it's struggles.
I think our struggle is havingan educated laity.
You know, people just don'tknow their faith.
And, you know, when I hear,you know, parents don't know the
basic tenets of the prayers toteach their children, you know, that.
(27:52):
That saddens me.
So where, you know, I think weneed a more.
We need people, more capableleadership people to be more educated
on their faith.
And I don't know how we dothat, because right now that's not
happening.
Our church body just got agrant to actually get our young people
(28:13):
to be more connected to the liturgy.
So it's kind of interesting.
That's your.
Your area of focus.
That's going to be a.
I'm kind of curious how ourchurch body actually moves forward
with that, going forward, kindof getting our young people to have
a deeper appreciation of theliturgy and the power the liturgy
has in our life.
But I think the young peoplereally hunger for that because, you
(28:34):
know, I'm teaching undergradsright now, Intro to Catholic theology
for Ohio Dominican Universityin Columbus.
And, you know, they've.
They've really.
They're hungry to tell them,you know, what our belief systems
are.
And once they learn it, they.
They're like, they're hungryfor some more.
But I think there's a gap thathappened, and especially in the Catholic
Church.
You know, in the 1960s, we hadthe Second Vatican Council, which
(28:57):
was very revolutionary andchanged our way of thinking, but
we didn't know what quite whatto do with it afterward.
So there was a time when faithformation consisted of making crafts
and singing Kumbaya and JesusLoves Me.
But, you know, so it's like,then they started, well, wait, we
need to get back to center.
So there's a whole generation,I'd say my generation, who learned
(29:19):
those to make crosses out ofPopsicle sticks and didn't really,
really engage in our faith.
So I think now we're lacking.
We have this whole populationof the laity who's not very formed
in their faith.
And then we're expecting themto teach the youth.
And, you know, and there'sthat gap.
So I think trying to be more,you know, we have to be more intentional
(29:42):
about forming our faithful,our congregations in their faith,
so that they can teach it,pass it on to the next generation.
Because we can't rely onculture anymore.
We don't live in a Christianculture like we used to.
Church is not at the center ofpeople's world.
They have sports on Sunday mornings.
And, you know, it's.
It's.
It's.
We're competing with all thesesecular activities.
(30:04):
So finding people to pass onthe faith, I think is the biggest
challenge I'm seeing at thepresent time.
You know, I'm curious.
One of the Controversiesthat's always going into church,
especially lately, is if we,if young people aren't in our church,
we have to abandon liturgy andgive them something different.
Being someone who works in theliturgy field, how do you answer
(30:28):
when churches are like,there's no young people here.
We have to go bring a praiseban in and get rid of all of our
liturgy, historic liturgy, toget young people to come.
Since you work so closely withyoung people, tell us a little bit
about how you approach thatconcept of do we just throw this
out and do something different?
Yeah, I hear that a lot, and Ithink we have to find that again.
(30:49):
It's all about balance.
I think we bring them to, ifwe bring them to a liturgy that's
bad preaching, music is boringand bad.
You know, I'm not saying wehave to entertain or bring a praise
band in, but we have to keepour structure.
And because it's verytraditional, you know, it does have
a long history and, you know,we've, we've preserved it this long,
(31:10):
but I think what we have to dois look at it.
Are we doing it effectively?
And, you know, and are we, andare we explaining what we're doing?
Is there some kind of contextbehind it?
You know, literature can bevery formative.
But I agree, I have a nineyear old and a seven year old to
get them to pay attention in Mass.
Oh, this is boring.
(31:31):
Oh, I'm, you know, they'drather be punching each other and
stuff, but I say, no, let'slisten, let's.
And then at home, they'llmimic the prayers.
They'll mimic the sign of the cross.
You know, they'll, they'll,you know, if a prayer breaks out,
they'll finish it.
You know, so I think it is,it's a teachable.
The liturgy teaches, informs.
(31:52):
But first of all, it has to begood liturgy.
And second of all, we justhave to stick with it, inform people
of why we do what we do.
And I think that that's critical.
So I love to ask my guest this question.
What do you want your legacyto be?
Well, I want people to, torealize that I was passionate about
(32:13):
church leadership and that I'mnot afraid to ask the challenging
questions.
And a lot of times people lookat me with three heads in a meeting
when I ask the challenging questions.
But I do, because I'm notafraid to speak out.
You know, there are times inmy life when I try to stay quiet,
but the Holy Spirit won't letme stay quiet.
You know how that I'm sureYou've had that experience before.
(32:35):
Jeremiah Bowman, right?
I'm not going to comment.
I'm not going to comment.
I'm not going to comment.
Next thing I know, I'mcommenting in the whole thing room
go silent.
But, you know, I feel likethese questions need to be asked
and these things need to bewrestled with.
And you know, I wasn't afraidto say them and to speak out and
to, to.
I want to see the church growand thrive because I think it is
divinely inspired.
(32:56):
I told one of my old bossesthat I said if I was just concentrating
on the human element, I wouldbe an atheist now because of what
I've seen, how flawed humanbeings have operated.
But I know down deep in myheart that there's something more
and that Jesus is leading anddriving the ship and, you know, we
just have to stay the course.
(33:18):
If you had a message for thechurch going forward about leadership,
what would it be?
Well, I think like you said,being aware that there is a need
for leadership developmentamong clergy.
You know, they have suffering, burnout.
They can't be expected to beall things to all people.
They have to be, you know, youhave to have, you have to address
(33:39):
the issue and we have torealize that it is an issue and we
have to do something about itgoing forward.
I think that's what I'd like to.
The message to be communicatedbecause I see what happened in my
own experience, what happenswhen it gets dysfunctional.
I've seen the hurt, I've seenthe anger.
I've seen the.
And something that I'm sureyou familiar with is that people
(34:01):
associate the church withJesus and with God.
So if something goes wrong, ifI see a priest scandalizing or stealing
money or abusing pe, sexualabusing children, that's going to
affect my faith in God, youknow, And I think that holds church
leaders to an even moreaccountability than say the CEO of
Enron or, or Microsoft, youknow, because you are affecting people's
(34:25):
relationship with God andthat, that's even, I think in my
opinion, that's, you know,something horrible that we, we, we
don't want to do.
Right?
Because I could just buy adifferent computer if I don't like
Microsoft.
But if I abandon my faith, andI've seen a lot of people abandon
their faith in God because ofthe church scandal.
(34:45):
And you have to remind themit's flawed human beings.
It's not the divinelyinstituted body of Christ.
But, you know, how do you, howdo you reconcile that?
So church leaders have to takeA good hard look at how they're operating
because of that.
So is there anything I haven'tasked you that I should have asked
you?
(35:05):
Well, no, no, really, I justwanted to kind of tell you what I've
been up to.
And you know, as you know,I've been saying about Pope Francis
has sent it on synodality.
Well, I've developed a programcalled Gifted in the Spirit, which
it's a leadership developmentprogram for church leaders based
on those principles of synodand citadelity.
Listening to the spirit,discernment, you know, active listening,
(35:30):
you know, coaching, mentoring,asking the right big questions, you
know.
So that's something I'm reallyexcited about developing and making
available.
So when, when will that beavailable for people to kind of check
out?
Well, it's kind of inprogress, so it's up and I have a
LinkedIn page.
I have some materials on it,but I'm just trying to work it out
(35:53):
and figure out when I canlaunch it.
So where can people find youand follow where the project is going
and know when it's going tocome out?
Now they can follow me on LinkedIn.
I'm there.
And Bernadette McMasterskyimand gifted in the Spirit is my leadership
development program that I'mhoping to launch.
Wow.
So cool.
When you get that launch, comeback out and we'll talk about it
(36:13):
and we'll delve into it some more.
Sounds great.
Thank you.
Well, thanks for being such awonderful guest and for having this
conversation, an importantconversation about church leadership
because like you said, thechurch is a.
The leaders to the front linesof people, kind of their first experience
sometimes with Jesus.
And we want that experience tobe one that we know we're flawed,
(36:34):
but that is one that doesn'tlead people away from the gospel
and our Savior as opposed toleading us to.
Leading us to him.
Exactly.
So blessings on what you doand thank you for the leadership
you provide.
Thank you.
My guest today, Bernadette,has over 20 years experience working
in leadership positions withinthe Roman Catholic Church.
In 2023, she completed her PhDat Robert Morris University in instructional
management and Leadership.
Her primary area of focus ischurch leadership, specifically ensuring
that those positions ofleadership possess the skills necessary
(01:21):
to lead.
In addition, Burdette is anadjunct instructor for St.
Madrid Seminary in herpermanent Deacon Deconant Formation
program, course facilitatorfor University of Dayton Virtual
Learning Community for FaithFormation, and adjunct faculty for
Ohio Dominican University intheir theological department.
(01:42):
We welcome her to the podcast.
To the podcast.
Well, Bernadette, welcome tothe podcast.
How are you doing today?
Oh, pretty good.
Trying to stay warm in thiswinter weather.
Aren't we all?
So I'm going to ask you myfavorite question, ask all my guests.
What's the best piece ofadvice you ever received?
(02:04):
Well, I think for my father,embrace challenges.
He was always one that says,never shy away from challenges.
And when things come your way,that's unexpected, just embrace them
and, you know, and look atthem as opportunities to grow.
Not, not something to fret or fear.
Oh, I love that.
That's so good because, youknow, challenges will come again.
(02:24):
Somebody else said about thesame, kind of along those same lines
of, you know, life gives you lemons.
What do you do with it?
Do you make lemonade or do youjust suck on a sour lemon?
You know, so for sure.
Sure for sure.
So I'm curious as you thinkabout your life and people who have
been important to you, whowere some people who maybe served
to inspire you or be a mentorfor you along your journey.
Well, I would have to say, youknow, given the advice I just shared
(02:47):
with you from my father, thathe's one of them.
You know, he came from humble beginnings.
He never had a more than ahigh school diploma, but yet he became
very successful in the federalgovernment in the mine safety industry.
So he was very, you know,driven and he didn't let obstacles
get in his way.
And even though he had limitedformal education, he really, you
(03:09):
know, inspired me to just try,strive for the, to be the best and,
you know, in the church as well.
He was always either mowingthe lawn at the church or he became
active in boards, schoolboards for the diocese, mission boards
for the diocese.
So I always saw him active asthe church being a center of his
(03:29):
life.
And, you know, also along withthat, you know, when I was trying
to decide what career path Iwanted to go into after college,
I did a volunteer year and inthat year they assigned me to A small
church in rural West Virginia,believe it or not.
Never thought I'd come fullcircle and end up back in West Virginia.
But there was this little nun,little religious sister running the
(03:51):
parish, and she just had so many.
You know, the people loved her.
She did a great job in keepingpeople, you know, organized.
She'd go out and evangelizeand was committed to social justice.
And she inspired me to say,hey, hey, you know, I could do that.
You know, even though I'm awoman, even though I'm, you know,
I can still be a leader in theCatholic Church, just in a different
(04:14):
sort of way.
And that sort of led me in mycareer path that, you know, has sustained
me to this day.
That's great.
So I see you just completedyour PhD.
Tell us a little bit aboutwhat your PhD area of study was.
Well, it was actually interesting.
I was never really looking fora PhD, believe it or not.
And, you know, we wereactually at the diocese, know, and
(04:35):
going through some reallytough times.
As you know, the CatholicChurch has experienced a lot of scandal.
We had a bishop who was doingimproper things on many levels, and
he was ousted.
And I was very, very down.
I was.
I went through those stages ofgrief when you mourn and you get
angry and.
And, you know, and then I gota postcard in the mail that said,
come and learn about theInstructional Management and Leadership
(04:58):
program at Robert MorrisUniversity in Pittsburgh.
And I'm like, why me?
Why did this come to me?
But as I started thinkingabout, I'm like, you know, who knows
more about dysfunctionalleadership at this moment than me?
And I was living through it.
And I said, rather thangrieving and being angry and emotional,
do something productive.
So I said, you know, I want tostudy leadership.
(05:18):
I knew when I went into theprogram that I wanted to do something
on church leadership becausethat was what I was passionate about
at the time.
But then, you know, as Istarted getting into the program
and meeting with mentors andstuff, they're like, you have to
stop being angry.
You have to stop letting youremotions take over, and you have
to look at this critically and academically.
So I had a come to Jesusmoment, and I bracketed all of my,
(05:40):
you know, anger and emotionand said, you know, this is a real
problem.
And the more I started talkingto people in different diet in our
surrounding dioceses, the moreI realized, you know, this is an
issue that.
That really needs somereflection and some study and some,
you know, and so that's what I did.
So, you know, three yearslater, you know, I got my PhD and
(06:01):
my dissertation was on RomanCatholic priests, the need for leadership
and management training.
And it was a really proud accomplishment.
I know I did my research, Icame across some surprising results.
I came in with, you know, thishypothesis of what I was trying to
investigate, but found somethings that I was not expecting.
(06:21):
So what was the mostsurprising part of your research?
Well, I think the surprisingthing was there's that desire for
leadership and management training.
Everyone knows that it's a problem.
Um, the seminaries know it's a problem.
The, the seminarians, youknow, knew it was a problem.
The, the priests knew it was a problem.
(06:42):
So the awareness of the problem.
But how are, are, are thereinitiatives to help solve the problem?
And there were, you know, thatthere are programs out there, leadership
development programs and toolsfor priests.
Um, you know, and there'sdifferent ideas that were floating
through.
So I thought that that wasvery surprising that there's there
(07:03):
while they admit that there'sa problem, there's an openness to
change and to realize thatpriests do need to, and church leaders
do need training and they doneed to continue to grow and develop.
And that was somethingpositive, but that was something
that I found.
I know when I work a lot,being a pastor myself, we struggle
(07:26):
with the idea are we leadersor are we shepherds?
And I'm sure you have the sameissue in your, in the Catholic Church
as well.
What do you believe are someof the core skills that priests and
pastors need to be effectivechurch leaders?
Well, I think you're, you're right.
There are two different set of skills.
There's a shepherding, there'sthe, the spiritual side and there's
(07:51):
helping them grow spirituallyand close to God.
But then there's also thoseday to day tasks of being a leader
and building up thecongregation and meeting the temporal
needs of the parish and thechurch and making sure it funct.
So I think there's thatbalance where I think that priests
tend to be so bogged down inthat leadership management, that
(08:13):
day to day administrative workthat they forget about the spiritual
side.
So I think you're right.
It's a delicate tightrope towalk that they have to be spiritual
and realize that they'releading people to God and that's,
and to help them to spread themission of the church.
On the other hand, they haveto realize how to juggle those other
(08:34):
responsibilities.
I think it's, it's a balancingact and they have to.
You know, what I'm going tosuggest is that they do more, more
delegating and more discerningand looking at people in their parish
that can help them with theseadministrative tasks because they
want to do spiritual things.
You know, one of the biggestfindings in my research was that
(08:56):
priest said, you know, Ididn't sign up to be a janitor.
I didn't sign up to be amaintenance man.
I didn't sign up to be a.
A finance budget planner.
I signed up to be a spiritualadvisor, to walk with people on their
journey to Christ and to beprayerful and to be there at deathbeds
and to be there for funerals.
And instead I'm bogged down,you know, with these other things.
(09:17):
And, you know, so that'sreally tough.
And that's a challenge that Ithink is unique to church leaders.
You're right.
And I think the thing Inoticed too is, you know, in my seminary
training, we had one class onpastor as administrator.
So it was a three hour class.
It was in our fourth year.
And at that point you justwere thinking about, where's your
(09:39):
first.
Your first assignment?
You're going to be administrative?
Not necessarily.
But we didn't learn how to run meetings.
We didn't learn how to set upbudgets or even advise leaders to
do that.
How do you.
What strategies have youfigured out that work well to help
pastors develop skills intheir members?
(10:00):
Because that's important.
If you want to delegate, yougot to make sure your people are.
How do you help develop thoseleaders around you?
Well, I think you have to be.
Important thing is the.
In the Catholic Church is gift discernment.
You have to be.
The pastor has to be attentiveto every gift that the parapariushioners
have.
I know that's a big task withlarge congregations, but, you know,
(10:21):
with the smallercongregations, especially where they're
most in need of theseresources, they need to look at the
parish and say, who do I havethat's really come out?
And really, you know, I canreally trust, you know, like, if
you have a bank president inyour parish is your congregation,
why don't you make him part ofyour financial advisor and help you
with the finances?
(10:42):
You know, but being attentiveto the gifts that people bring to
the table, you know, you justhave to be very observant.
And I think, you know, comingback to the spiritual side, you have
to be really attentive to theHoly Spirit.
You know, I believe that'scritical, and that's something that
I've been really passionateabout working with, listening and
just Listening, be observant.
(11:02):
I think we're so busy in thisculture, do, do, do, do, do.
But we're not stopping andstepping back and looking around
and listening to the voice ofthe spirit, which, which takes time
and patience.
But I think there's, there'screative ways that, that pastors
can do this and you know, itcan be effective.
But you're right, you know,about that.
That was.
I chuckled when you said aboutthe seminary training because that's
(11:25):
what I found in my, in mydissertation research that you know,
they aren't, they are givenone course on pastoral administration
and you know, while ideallyfor at least for the Catholic Church
with the shortage of priestsis to have the priest, the priest
like be an associate.
I don't know what you all havein your, in your congregation if
(11:46):
you have, you know, where thepath the priest is a newly ordained
priest and a minister and theywalk alongside a seasoned priest
and they're at the parishlearning on the job training.
But they're not solely responsible.
You know, now we have guyscoming out of seminary and then they
make them in charge of aparish and they don't know the first
thing about the managementside and the leadership side.
(12:07):
And you know, and that, that's unfortunate.
So I don't know how we do that.
You know, seminary rectorsI've talked to said well we have
to cram it all in.
We have to get so manytheology, so many scriptures, so
many philosop because we don'thave time for one more course.
So if they're not getting thatin seminary and they're, they're
being ordained and going rightinto that, that parish setting, you
(12:28):
know, what a, what we're doinga disservice to them.
Yeah.
At our model we, during ourseminary training, early years, the
first two years we areassigned to a local parish for the,
on Sunday morning.
So we're kind of fieldwork students.
But you're really typicallyonly there maybe on Sunday, maybe
there's an event during theweek, but you're typically just there
(12:48):
on the weekend.
Yeah.
So you don't really learn asmuch during that time.
On when we have a year ofvicarage where you go off and spend
a year at a church where youmay learn more of hands on things.
Yeah, again that's kind of hitand miss depending upon the supervisor,
the church you're in and a lotof our past because we have the same
kind of a shortage.
(13:08):
Their first call is not as an associate.
Their first call is tosometimes a dual parish or even a
smaller parish, Very fewbecome associates.
So you're right.
With that in mind, though, howdo we.
And the seminary is strugglingwith that too.
How do you balance the formaleducation with experiential learning?
Because we don't.
(13:29):
If you're not in a place wheresomeone comes along, here's how you
run a meeting, here's how you lead.
We had no classes when I wasdisseminating on stewardship.
And you're supposed to walkin, all of a sudden, know how to
do stewardship in a congregation.
So, you know, how do youbalance all that?
And that's the challenge.
And that's what I think weneed to look towards these other
(13:49):
programs.
We need to provide support forchurch leaders.
And I don't know if that's happening.
And I think you're right.
That need has to be met somehow.
And I think we have to look tooutside organizations and dioceses.
I know you all have moreformal structures as well, and maybe
(14:09):
we have to look at those forresources, because you're right,
the seminaries can't addanything more to their plate.
So where are they getting thiskind of training?
And I agree that it's achallenge that we need to be alerted
to and be aware for the future.
So it really kind of falls alot on the pastor himself.
(14:31):
So as you think about whatyou've been studying, how can leaders
stay adaptable and responsiveto the changing needs of their congregations?
Well, I think they have to beopen to change.
You know, and I.
We've.
We've talked about that before.
The change is very difficult,and people that are stuck in the
old model that the priest doeseverything and the father's in charge
(14:51):
of everything, you know, thatmindset can no longer operate in
this culture.
And we have to be able tothink outside the boat, like we said,
you know, outside the box.
My father used to say, youknow, get out the boat.
You know, God, Jesus calledPeter to get out of the boat and
to go into that unchartedterritory, which we need to do too,
but we need to prepare thepriest for that.
(15:12):
So if there's a way thatseminary can.
Can open them to this wholebigger picture of, you know, it's
the human side, theintellectual side, the.
The pastoral side, and openthem up to being adaptable and being
open to change.
I think the seminaries have tofoster that kind of attitude, because
when they get out, if they'renot adaptable, if they're not ready
(15:34):
to face changes, if they'renot ready to ask the big questions,
Then we're in, we're in forsome trouble.
What kind of after seminarysupport does the Catholic Church
provide for young pastors?
Well, and that, that, that Ithink is an issue as well.
There are outsideorganizations, like right now our
(15:56):
diocese has contracted aCatholic leadership institute.
And they're supposed, they,they have an outside consultant come
in, do leadership development,leadership coaching with our priests.
And I think it's thoseprograms right now that have the
best success rate.
But again, they're costly.
Does a bishop know about them?
You know, so they have somechallenges too.
(16:18):
So what I found in mydissertation research is the diocese
really needs to be that support.
Like, you know, where I work,I work for the liturgy side of it.
So if a priest has a questionabout liturgy, they call me and I'll
answer the question.
Well, we have an HR person, wehave a cfo, we have accountants.
So if they have issues, theyneed to be know who to call for help
(16:40):
and not to be afraid to askthose questions and to seek out those
resources.
But you're right, they have tobe made aware that they exist.
You know, and that's another challenge.
Yeah.
And especially with theshortage of pastors.
I know you, we're experiencinga lot of clergy burnout.
Are you guys also, how are youhandling worker wellness in your
(17:02):
train, your organization?
I don't think that we areaddressing that.
You know, we work them till you.
Right till they, you know,drop over.
I mean, unfortunately that'sthe case.
But again, if we learn how toparcel out those responsibilities
and don't expect them to bechief maintenance man, chief CFO,
chief, you know, and we letthem look to other people for those
(17:24):
administrative tasks then Ithink, and let them do that spiritual
side.
I think that is critical.
But you know, they have.
Pastors have to be willing tolet go and, and to delegate and like
you said, be able to.
Who can I trust?
You know, the trust is a big issue.
You know, if I trust thisperson with my finances and they
go run off or embezzle thefunding, you know, how am I, how.
(17:47):
So they're ultimately responsible.
So I think that level ofresponsibility can, you know, cause
burnout, because you're responsible.
You know, my dad used to tellme, you look at pre bishops, they're
in charge of multimilliondollar corporations with all that
money and finances, and yetthey don't know a thing about finances
and a thing about managing a corporation.
(18:08):
So you're right.
How do you balance theshepherding and the leadership?
How do you balance thepastoral and the Temporal.
So I think those arechallenges that the church has to
face.
And you're right, I don'tthink we have enough resources yet
to provide that.
And they are getting burnedout because they are expected to
do everything, be everythingto all people and they just can't.
They're human.
(18:29):
Yeah.
I think it hit me for realitycheck when I looked at the our state
form we had to fill out andsaid, who was like, who's basically
serving as the CEO of this organization?
And my name was on there like,wait a minute, if this goes wrong,
I'm the one going to prison.
So it's like we had to makesure, we make sure all of our T's
(18:52):
were crossed and our I's weredotted, like, I'm not going to prison.
But I'm sure if you're a youngseminarian with, you know, bright
eyed about sharing the gospeland teaching Jesus message and then
you realize, oh, I'm a CEO ofa corporation.
I'm in charge of these finances.
I have to run a meeting.
You're making me fire thesecretary because she's not showing
(19:12):
up.
You know, they're not, that'snot what they expected.
So, you know, my dad said insome sense we're setting them up
for failure.
And I think that's why a lotof them do experience burnout.
Because, hey, you know, Isigned on to be a spiritual leader.
I didn't sign off for all thisother, you know, stuff that went
along with being a leader.
I'm curious, what from yourstudies, did you have any recommendations
(19:35):
to improve the situation forthe church?
Well, I think, you know,having, making people aware of these
organizations trying to findleadership development opportunities
designed for clergy and forchurch leaders, even lay church leaders.
You know, I think having, youknow, having these, these opportunities,
(19:57):
making them available, I thinkalso doing, having that mentorship
as much as you can.
You know, we talked abouthaving them with the seasoned priest.
I think we have to set that up.
And they always said that waskey, you know, finding someone who's
been in the church for 30years and taken a new, you know,
and doing a better job withour seminarian program.
(20:17):
Like you said about thatpastoral year, they have a year where
they spend.
Don't just make them serve atthe altar.
Don't just make them, youknow, see if there's enough candles
and, you know, have them sitin a finance council meeting, have
them look at the budget, havethem, you know, be very, very intentional
about your seminary and thosepastoral years and those pastoral
(20:39):
experiences.
Because unless you Are, youknow, like you said, they might not
ever get exposed to that tillhey, I'm in this situation now, what
do I do?
So I think there's ways but wehave to be intentional about those
ways.
Yeah, I like that.
I kind of wish that there wasmore of an, of a guided process for
(21:00):
that year.
Like.
Yeah, the first, the firstquarter of your time because you,
when you just get to parish asa, in my vicarage year I was just
trying to figure out where,where the bathroom was, you know,
where my office was.
Yeah, but, but if you had itbroken down, where you spend a quarter
working, going to the finance meetings.
Where you spend a quarterworking with the school.
(21:21):
If you have a school.
Yeah, every, everything isintentional that you get these experience.
Because my, the biggest thingmy bishop did was we're going to
make sure you preach every,you know, preach a lot and you do
liturgy.
Yeah, same here.
You know, once I got that it's fine.
But what happens after I, youknow, I'd ever run a meeting or let
the person run a meeting, setup the, set up the agenda.
(21:42):
Yeah, we don't.
Yeah, I don't think that intentional.
Yeah, that's what I think hasto happen, you know.
Yeah.
Especially knowing that we'reshortage of having these mentor priests
because we don't have them anymore.
But having something beingintentional and then the diocese,
I think the diocese has to bea resource, has to be willing to
be there when the window, whenthe priest knows and, and the priest
(22:03):
has to know who the financeperson is at the diocese so they
can call them for help, youknow, or who's the HR person.
Oh yes, I need your helpbecause I'm having a staff issue
or I'm having a budgetingproblem or I need you to come in
and teach me or we have a, youknow, development office where we're
fundraising.
Like you said.
Teach me how to run astewardship campaign.
Teach me how to.
If they know who those peopleare, you know, they seek them, they
(22:24):
can seek them out.
So I think we have to just bemore intentional of supporting our
clergy and our church leadersin finding support for this leaders
their leadership role.
Oh, I love that.
I'm curious what have you.
Give me an example ofeffective leadership you've seen
and who kind of how that, howthat laid out.
(22:45):
Well, I think it's kind of interesting.
I'm going to have to givecredit to Pope Francis because you
know, he's very revolutionaryin his way of thinking.
But I'm not sure if you'refamiliar what the Catholic Church
has been doing is the Synod onSynodality, where he started in year
2000 with these consultationsfrom all across the country.
(23:06):
So he, we've.
He listened to the people inthe pew on the local level.
So we all gathered together,every diocese in the whole world
gathered together to listen tothe people, the grassroots.
And then we compiled, compiled all.
We compiled all those reports,and then they made their way up the
chain to Rome.
And he sat there and he hadthese, these meetings where people,
(23:28):
they sat down and they justtalked and actively listened and
actually actively heard whatthe, what is really, you know, happening.
And I think that was revolutionary.
So while.
And he opened it up to the.
These meetings in Rome weren'tjust bishops, which was the first
time this ever happened.
They were women and laity andyoung and old and sitting at the
(23:51):
same table.
So a cardinal might be sittingnext to a young person from another
country, and they listened toeach other and talk.
And I think that's one way, Ithink his effective leadership style
in the Synod on Synodality isa model for how we should be conducting
leadership and how we shouldbe synodal leaders.
And I know you all Lutheranslike to use that word, synod a lot.
(24:15):
And synod, though, meansjourneying together, walking together,
listening to one another.
And, you know, I think thatthat for me, is a great example of
what we should be doing andsupporting one another and listening
to each other.
That's interesting.
I don't think sometimeslaypeople's voice gets heard a lot,
especially in upperleadership, and I think it's really
(24:36):
important for that voice to be heard.
I also want to go back tosomething you said earlier, and I
want to kind of tap into your experience.
You talked about, and we havethe same struggle in our Lutheran
Church as well, is how do wefind and make use of women serving
in the church.
How have you kind of brokensome of those guidelines to help
(24:57):
people figure out?
Because in your church bodylike mine, women don't serve as pastors
and priests, but I thinkthey're underutilized in terms of
their ability to provide theirgifts and talents to the church.
How have you guys effectivelyor continue to kind of work to get
women more active in the church?
Well, and that's one of thethings that came out of the synod
(25:19):
that the Pope said that we dounder value women.
And I think for me, you know,I was, you know, when I was familiar
with other denominations likeLutheran and other ones that do have
women pastors, they would askme, they would Say, well, don't you
wish you had the, the caller?
And I said, no, I don't,because I can do things.
(25:40):
I just have to go in adifferent direction.
So, yes, it's been, it's beenhard, it's been challenging.
But like I said, there arerole models.
There are very inspirationalwomen like that sister that I told
you about that probablyinspired me to do what I do.
You know, I think I can be arole model for other people.
There are a lot of women whojust don't get recognized.
(26:00):
But I think, you know, thePope Francis has appointed women
to the, to hide the Romanoffices in the Vatican.
And I think that there's, there's.
We're opening the doors.
And I think, me, I do thinkmyself a revolutionary.
A lot of times, you know, Ihave to prove myself a little bit
harder.
You know, I'll be in a roomfull, full of men, you know, or I'll
(26:21):
be with priests and I'll be.
But, you know, I just, once Ishow them I know the theology of
the church.
I know leadership.
I'm very educated.
And when I speak that way, oh,we didn't know.
We're sorry, you know, they,the tables turn.
So, you know, where it's, It'sa challenge.
I think the church is gettingbetter at it, I think with the shortage
of priests.
While women's ordination will,you know, may never be, but, you
(26:45):
know, they are looking atmaybe women and says the act and
that, that could happen maybedown the road.
But I think women serving inleadership roles are critical.
The more we have the shortageof priests.
So you work in faith formationkind of tell me what, what, what
process is that, how that looklike in the Catholic Church?
I know we have some of that inour church body as well.
(27:08):
Well, actually, I'm in theliturgy world.
I'm the director of worship.
So my job is even morechallenging because you're right,
I'm dealing with priests.
I'm dealing with, you know,telling them how to run the liturgy.
And they're like, what are yougoing to tell us?
And then when I know myrubrics and I know my structure,
what's supposed to happen, andI know the theology behind it, they're
(27:29):
like, whoa, you know, so, youknow, we do have, we try to reduce,
have some formation.
I think it's struggles.
I think our struggle is havingan educated laity.
You know, people just don'tknow their faith.
And, you know, when I hear,you know, parents don't know the
basic tenets of the prayers toteach their children, you know, that.
(27:52):
That saddens me.
So where, you know, I think weneed a more.
We need people, more capableleadership people to be more educated
on their faith.
And I don't know how we dothat, because right now that's not
happening.
Our church body just got agrant to actually get our young people
(28:13):
to be more connected to the liturgy.
So it's kind of interesting.
That's your.
Your area of focus.
That's going to be a.
I'm kind of curious how ourchurch body actually moves forward
with that, going forward, kindof getting our young people to have
a deeper appreciation of theliturgy and the power the liturgy
has in our life.
But I think the young peoplereally hunger for that because, you
(28:34):
know, I'm teaching undergradsright now, Intro to Catholic theology
for Ohio Dominican Universityin Columbus.
And, you know, they've.
They've really.
They're hungry to tell them,you know, what our belief systems
are.
And once they learn it, they.
They're like, they're hungryfor some more.
But I think there's a gap thathappened, and especially in the Catholic
Church.
You know, in the 1960s, we hadthe Second Vatican Council, which
(28:57):
was very revolutionary andchanged our way of thinking, but
we didn't know what quite whatto do with it afterward.
So there was a time when faithformation consisted of making crafts
and singing Kumbaya and JesusLoves Me.
But, you know, so it's like,then they started, well, wait, we
need to get back to center.
So there's a whole generation,I'd say my generation, who learned
(29:19):
those to make crosses out ofPopsicle sticks and didn't really,
really engage in our faith.
So I think now we're lacking.
We have this whole populationof the laity who's not very formed
in their faith.
And then we're expecting themto teach the youth.
And, you know, and there'sthat gap.
So I think trying to be more,you know, we have to be more intentional
(29:42):
about forming our faithful,our congregations in their faith,
so that they can teach it,pass it on to the next generation.
Because we can't rely onculture anymore.
We don't live in a Christianculture like we used to.
Church is not at the center ofpeople's world.
They have sports on Sunday mornings.
And, you know, it's.
It's.
It's.
We're competing with all thesesecular activities.
(30:04):
So finding people to pass onthe faith, I think is the biggest
challenge I'm seeing at thepresent time.
You know, I'm curious.
One of the Controversiesthat's always going into church,
especially lately, is if we,if young people aren't in our church,
we have to abandon liturgy andgive them something different.
Being someone who works in theliturgy field, how do you answer
(30:28):
when churches are like,there's no young people here.
We have to go bring a praiseban in and get rid of all of our
liturgy, historic liturgy, toget young people to come.
Since you work so closely withyoung people, tell us a little bit
about how you approach thatconcept of do we just throw this
out and do something different?
Yeah, I hear that a lot, and Ithink we have to find that again.
(30:49):
It's all about balance.
I think we bring them to, ifwe bring them to a liturgy that's
bad preaching, music is boringand bad.
You know, I'm not saying wehave to entertain or bring a praise
band in, but we have to keepour structure.
And because it's verytraditional, you know, it does have
a long history and, you know,we've, we've preserved it this long,
(31:10):
but I think what we have to dois look at it.
Are we doing it effectively?
And, you know, and are we, andare we explaining what we're doing?
Is there some kind of contextbehind it?
You know, literature can bevery formative.
But I agree, I have a nineyear old and a seven year old to
get them to pay attention in Mass.
Oh, this is boring.
(31:31):
Oh, I'm, you know, they'drather be punching each other and
stuff, but I say, no, let'slisten, let's.
And then at home, they'llmimic the prayers.
They'll mimic the sign of the cross.
You know, they'll, they'll,you know, if a prayer breaks out,
they'll finish it.
You know, so I think it is,it's a teachable.
The liturgy teaches, informs.
(31:52):
But first of all, it has to begood liturgy.
And second of all, we justhave to stick with it, inform people
of why we do what we do.
And I think that that's critical.
So I love to ask my guest this question.
What do you want your legacyto be?
Well, I want people to, torealize that I was passionate about
(32:13):
church leadership and that I'mnot afraid to ask the challenging
questions.
And a lot of times people lookat me with three heads in a meeting
when I ask the challenging questions.
But I do, because I'm notafraid to speak out.
You know, there are times inmy life when I try to stay quiet,
but the Holy Spirit won't letme stay quiet.
You know how that I'm sureYou've had that experience before.
(32:35):
Jeremiah Bowman, right?
I'm not going to comment.
I'm not going to comment.
I'm not going to comment.
Next thing I know, I'mcommenting in the whole thing room
go silent.
But, you know, I feel likethese questions need to be asked
and these things need to bewrestled with.
And you know, I wasn't afraidto say them and to speak out and
to, to.
I want to see the church growand thrive because I think it is
divinely inspired.
(32:56):
I told one of my old bossesthat I said if I was just concentrating
on the human element, I wouldbe an atheist now because of what
I've seen, how flawed humanbeings have operated.
But I know down deep in myheart that there's something more
and that Jesus is leading anddriving the ship and, you know, we
just have to stay the course.
(33:18):
If you had a message for thechurch going forward about leadership,
what would it be?
Well, I think like you said,being aware that there is a need
for leadership developmentamong clergy.
You know, they have suffering, burnout.
They can't be expected to beall things to all people.
They have to be, you know, youhave to have, you have to address
(33:39):
the issue and we have torealize that it is an issue and we
have to do something about itgoing forward.
I think that's what I'd like to.
The message to be communicatedbecause I see what happened in my
own experience, what happenswhen it gets dysfunctional.
I've seen the hurt, I've seenthe anger.
I've seen the.
And something that I'm sureyou familiar with is that people
(34:01):
associate the church withJesus and with God.
So if something goes wrong, ifI see a priest scandalizing or stealing
money or abusing pe, sexualabusing children, that's going to
affect my faith in God, youknow, And I think that holds church
leaders to an even moreaccountability than say the CEO of
Enron or, or Microsoft, youknow, because you are affecting people's
(34:25):
relationship with God andthat, that's even, I think in my
opinion, that's, you know,something horrible that we, we, we
don't want to do.
Right?
Because I could just buy adifferent computer if I don't like
Microsoft.
But if I abandon my faith, andI've seen a lot of people abandon
their faith in God because ofthe church scandal.
(34:45):
And you have to remind themit's flawed human beings.
It's not the divinelyinstituted body of Christ.
But, you know, how do you, howdo you reconcile that?
So church leaders have to takeA good hard look at how they're operating
because of that.
So is there anything I haven'tasked you that I should have asked
you?
(35:05):
Well, no, no, really, I justwanted to kind of tell you what I've
been up to.
And you know, as you know,I've been saying about Pope Francis
has sent it on synodality.
Well, I've developed a programcalled Gifted in the Spirit, which
it's a leadership developmentprogram for church leaders based
on those principles of synodand citadelity.
Listening to the spirit,discernment, you know, active listening,
(35:30):
you know, coaching, mentoring,asking the right big questions, you
know.
So that's something I'm reallyexcited about developing and making
available.
So when, when will that beavailable for people to kind of check
out?
Well, it's kind of inprogress, so it's up and I have a
LinkedIn page.
I have some materials on it,but I'm just trying to work it out
(35:53):
and figure out when I canlaunch it.
So where can people find youand follow where the project is going
and know when it's going tocome out?
Now they can follow me on LinkedIn.
I'm there.
And Bernadette McMasterskyimand gifted in the Spirit is my leadership
development program that I'mhoping to launch.
Wow.
So cool.
When you get that launch, comeback out and we'll talk about it
(36:13):
and we'll delve into it some more.
Sounds great.
Thank you.
Well, thanks for being such awonderful guest and for having this
conversation, an importantconversation about church leadership
because like you said, thechurch is a.
The leaders to the front linesof people, kind of their first experience
sometimes with Jesus.
And we want that experience tobe one that we know we're flawed,
(36:34):
but that is one that doesn'tlead people away from the gospel
and our Savior as opposed toleading us to.
Leading us to him.
Exactly.
So blessings on what you doand thank you for the leadership
you provide.
Thank you.
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