April 2, 2025 • 31 mins
The focal point of our discussion today centers on the profound insights regarding the detrimental effects of marijuana, as elucidated by Dr. Raymond Wiggins in his recently published work, "Weeding out the Myths about Marijuana." Dr. Wiggins, drawing from his extensive expertise as both a medical professional and a minister, provides a compelling analysis of marijuana's impact on mental and physical health, revealing alarming statistics regarding its correlation with increased risks of anxiety, psychosis, and heart issues. Through a personal narrative intertwined with professional observations, he underscores the critical need for a reevaluation of prevailing perceptions surrounding marijuana as a benign substance. Our conversation delves into the societal implications of marijuana legalization, as well as the spiritual dimensions that inform Dr. Wiggins' perspective on addiction and recovery. Ultimately, we aspire to illuminate the urgent necessity of addressing these misconceptions in our communities for the betterment of public health and well-being.
The discourse unfolds with a profound exploration of personal adversity articulated through a poignant anecdote from Dr. Raymond Wiggins' formative years. A significant piece of advice from a mentor, encapsulated in the phrase 'a calm sea never made a skillful sailor,' serves as a thematic cornerstone for the discussion. This metaphor underlines the essential role of challenges in personal development and resilience. Dr. Wiggins reflects on his own life, particularly the adversities faced by his family concerning substance abuse, and how these experiences have equipped him to minister to others in similar predicaments. The conversation deftly weaves between personal narrative and broader societal implications, emphasizing the importance of using one's trials as a foundation for helping others navigate their own challenges. As the dialogue progresses, Dr. Wiggins recounts his diverse academic and professional journey, transitioning from a business degree to a medical career in oral and maxillofacial surgery, ultimately embracing a calling towards ministry. His multifaceted background enriches the conversation, highlighting the intersection of medicine and spirituality in addressing contemporary issues surrounding substance use and addiction, particularly in relation to marijuana.
Takeaways:
- The best piece of advice received was that a calm sea never made a skillful sailor, highlighting the importance of adversity in personal growth.
- The speaker shared personal experiences with family adversity related to addiction, emphasizing that such experiences can prepare one to help others.
- The podcast discussed the significant changes in the medical field, specifically in anesthesia, over the past three decades, including advancements in medication and imaging technology.
- The speaker's new book addresses misconceptions about marijuana and discusses its negative impact on mental health, including increased anxiety and risk of psychosis.
- Legalization of marijuana is argued to lead to an increase in addiction, psychiatric issues, and other social problems, countering popular belief.
- The importance of incorporating biblical principles into discussions around marijuana use was emphasized, suggesting that spiritual guidance can aid in overcoming addiction.
Links referenced in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:58):
Foreign.
Welcome to the podcast.
How you doing today, my friend?
I am great.
How are you, Keith?
I'm good.
It's good to have you on.
Looking forward to talkingabout this important topic today.
So we're going to jump rightin with some great conversation.
Glad to do it.
Glad to be here and honored tobe here.
(01:20):
So we're going to start withmy favorite question first.
What's the best piece ofadvice you've ever received?
There was a gentleman in mychurch growing up.
He was our guitar player, agreat man.
He was about 10 years olderthan me and kind of a mentor to me.
And he told me one time, and Idon't remember the conversation other
than what he told me is that acalm sea never made a skillful sailor.
(01:45):
And I've always remembered that.
And I found it to be so true.
You know, any adversity inlife, you don't like it while you're
going through it.
But man, you look back on itand you know that you've grown and
wouldn't be the person thatyou are today without it.
And for instance, theadversity that I've seen in my family
(02:06):
with drugs and marijuana,alcohol, etc, I wouldn't be able
to minister to people today inthose situations had that not happened
to me and my family.
That is so true that those,those ways that God has used those
things in our life to prepareus for what's next I think are just
so critical.
Absolutely.
(02:27):
So, Dr.
Wayman Wiggins, tell us alittle bit about your background.
Kind of walk us through howyou, because you have a very diverse
background, MDIV, MD.
So kind of walk us throughyour, your journey.
Well, my first degree was abusiness degree from smu.
And I thought I was going togo into business with my dad.
(02:48):
He had a construction company.
He was successful through theseventies and most of the eighties,
but I was about to graduate inthe late eighties from, from college.
And he came to me justliterally a few months beforehand
and he said, hey son, I amstarving right now and if you come
into business with me, you'regoing to starve as well.
And I don't want that for you.
(03:10):
And I recommend that you lookfor something else.
And I didn't want to hearthat, but I knew that he loved me
and I knew that he was tellingme what was best for me.
So I started looking at otherthings and I saw that oral and maxillofacial
surgeons got to fix cleft lipand palate and do other craniofacial
stuff.
And I thought Hey, I thoughtthat's what I would be doing if I
(03:32):
did that.
And so I thought that's a wayto help people and I just thought
that would be amazing.
So I went into that field andmost OMSs get both their dental degree
and their medical degreebecause it's kind of the bridge between
the two.
And so I got that.
And then later on, about 10years ago I started really.
(03:57):
I've always felt a call toministry but I just decided to at
that point really yield to itmore and you know, a deeper calling
and, and decided to get my M.
Div And I went to RegentUniversity and it was a great experience.
I learned a lot.
I feel much more comfortableministering, writing, delivering
(04:19):
sermons, lectures, writingbooks, et cetera.
It was great.
So how do you balance allthose different interests with all
the things you have going onin your life?
Well, if you ask my wife,she'll tell you it's probably not
very balanced and she'sprobably right.
I burn the candle at both ends.
(04:39):
I have four children as welland a full time job in practice as
well as a lot of ministrycommitments, a whole lot more.
And I was just asked to takeanother role here just this past
Friday, which I'm prayingabout it but I can't imagine that
I wouldn't ex.
Wouldn't step into that newrole as well.
So the good Lord's doing greatthings through, through my ministry
(05:02):
and I'm so thankful, just oddat what he's doing in my life and
thankful.
So it kind of reminds me ofthe, the Spider man phrase.
With great talent comes great responsibility.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
One of my mentors told methat, that you know, if you are,
(05:23):
are blessed then you need tobe blessing other people.
He was the leader of theresidency program that I was in.
Mark Wong, great man.
And he told me that.
So it's kind of the, the same thing.
It just a little different wording.
Yeah, I kind of, I kind offudged a little bit on the Spider
man line, but it kind ofapplied to this, this situation.
(05:45):
Yep, absolutely.
So you've been on the frontlines of patient care for nearly
three decades.
Can you share some of the mostsignificant changes you've seen in
a medical field during that time?
Yeah, especially well inanesthesia, the anesthesia side of
things.
Most oral and maxillofacialsurgeons do.
(06:08):
The vast majority of ourprocedures are under general anesthetic
and I've seen a big change inthe meds that we've used.
The drugs, the anestheticdrugs, they're much cleaner, fewer
side effects, they're shorteracting, they're a lot safer.
That's a big difference thatI've seen.
And that all happened around20, 25 years ago.
(06:30):
And then the imaging that weuse is way different.
You know, when I started, wewere using plain films for, for radiographs.
I would, you know, we had adark room in our office and the staff
would take the, theradiograph, they would take it to
the dark room and develop it.
Well now, of course,everything's instant, it's all digital.
And I have a CT scanner in myoffice and you know, now I can go
(06:54):
into surgery.
You, years ago, I would go inliterally blind.
I, you know, it's, I don'teven know how we did it back then,
but, but we did.
You know, the first decadethat I was doing this, I was blind.
But now I go in there and Iknow before I get in there the precise
location of, you know, ifthere's a lesion, for instance, a
(07:15):
cyst or a tumor or somethinglike that in a jawbone or, you know,
inside, in the face orwhatever, I can know the precise
location and, and the exactdimensions of it, you know, down
to 100th of a millimeter, how,how big it is.
So that's a, that's a hugedifference between now and 30 years
ago.
So let's get into why I kindof had you come on and you have a
(07:38):
new book out, Weeding out theMyths about Marijuana.
What motivated you to delveinto that topic and write a book
about it?
Well, there's a professionalside, first of all.
About 10 years ago, I, alongwith many of my medical colleagues,
began seeing that many peoplewere becoming much more difficult
(08:00):
to sedate.
We were using three to fourtimes more propofol for these total
IV anesthetics.
And people were often stillawake and struggling and even fighting
us.
And we didn't understand whatwas happening.
It was happening mostly inyoung people, but not exclusively.
And, and after several yearsof study, we determined that it was
marijuana use that was causing that.
(08:21):
And then we saw that thesepatients were having much more anxiety.
They were taking 58% more postoperative pain medication.
That's the professional sideand then the personal side.
I come from a large family andthere are just so many people that
have been addicted to drugs,alcohol, et cetera.
(08:42):
And unfortunately, I'vewitnessed the devastating effects
in my family leading topremature death in some of them.
Three of my cousins, I have nodoubt would be here today if not
for marijuana.
One died of a Sudden heart attack.
After smoking it Heavily forabout 30 years, two others started
with marijuana and moved on toother drugs.
(09:04):
But if not for marijuana, theywouldn't have died from those other
drugs.
And then a few years ago,another close family member, a very
close family member, washeaded in the right direction.
He grew up going to church.
He went to a Christian schoolwhen he was young.
He graduated high school andwent to college with a young man
that he had grown up with.
They were in youth grouptogether at church, but they got
(09:27):
to school and got in with agroup of guys who were smoking marijuana.
And they thought, hey,everybody is doing it.
Everybody seems to be okay, sowhy not?
And so they, they startedsmoking it as well.
And the second time they didthis, this young man had a psychotic
episode and he thought peoplewere chasing him.
He was displaying very bizarre behavior.
He didn't know his own identity.
(09:48):
And he was taken to apsychiatric hospital and doctors
told our family that he mightnever be the same.
He was released, butunfortunately he was never able to
return to school.
So I, I began investigatingthe subject and what I found really
shocked me.
What I found, you know, what Ihad heard from pop culture and most
of marijuana being safe andbenign just wasn't true.
(10:10):
And so I started speakingabout what I was finding.
So you'd mentioned your research.
What are some of the mostshocking things you found, your research
on effects of marijuana?
There's, there's a lot of them.
The, probably the three mostshocking are the greatly increased
risk of a suicide attempt,especially in young people, somewhere
(10:32):
between three to three and ahalf to nine times the risk of a
suicide attempt.
The risk of psychosis is up tosix times normal in marijuana users.
There's a huge study about that.
And then the risk of heart attack.
You know, until my cousin hadthat heart attack, I hadn't even
(10:53):
really thought about that.
I looked into it a little bitbecause the other incident happened
just several months before that.
And so I was already lookingat marijuana.
But when I started lookinginto heart attack, there's a five
times risk of a heart attackfor an hour after smoking marijuana.
I had no idea, even as adoctor that that was the case.
(11:14):
So why is it that we're toldall around that marijuana is a safe
drug and it's not a gatewaydrug and it's okay, and let's legalize
it because it really is harmless.
Why are people.
I shouldn't say, you can'ttell if a.
Why is that narrative beingpushed so much?
I think it's a profit Motive.
(11:35):
I just got back from aconference in D.C.
i was able to speak at thatconference, the Good Drug policy
conference in D.C.
and so many of the peoplethere were telling us the profit
motive behind this.
You know, if there wasn't ahuge profit motive.
Think about it this way.
(11:56):
Florida Amendment 3 that theywere trying to push to get it legalized
in Florida, which thankfully failed.
One Canadian company, just oneCanadian company, put $100 million,
over $100 million into thatreferendum trying to get it legalized.
If there wasn't a huge profitmotive there, they wouldn't have
(12:17):
done that.
And I also heard at thatconference that George Soros has
put $70 million into it, intothe cannabis industry.
So, you know, thesebillionaires that, that already have
a lot of money but are wantingto make more money on the backs of
our children, you know,they're, they're putting a lot of
money into this.
(12:39):
That is, that is shocking.
So, so kind of give us anoverview of your book.
What are the topics that youcover and how do you lay the book
out for those who pick this up?
Well, I, I start out talkingabout the, the economic and societal
impacts of it.
And then I, the, the medicalimpacts, both physical and mental
(13:02):
health.
I talk about the problems withthe, with the brain, with the heart,
with the lungs, with theimmune system.
And then I go into the, themental health effects, the increased
suicide, the increasedschizophrenia and anxiety, et cetera,
even personality disorders andsubstance use disorders, of course.
(13:26):
And then I, in the expandededition, I go into the biblical side
of things too, and I talkabout what the Bible says about it.
And even though the Bibledoesn't use the words cannabis or
marijuana, it does have a lotto say about this subject.
Are you getting any pushbackfrom your research, from the medical
profession about this topic?
(13:48):
You know, I really haven't,not from the medical profession.
The pushback that I get isfrom a lot on social media.
There's just a lot of trollsout there and they're, they're not
people that are, that haveexpertise in the area.
The, the medical community hasbeen overwhelmingly supportive because
(14:08):
we see it, no matter whatspecialty we're in, we're seeing
the devastating effects.
Whether it's ER doctors, I'mgetting a lot of feedback from them.
Great feedback.
Neurologists, people that,that are our therapist and psychologists,
LPCs, they're all giving megreat feedback.
And in fact, a very prominentneurologist wrote the forward for
(14:32):
my book and she just ravedabout it.
Also recently, just a coupleof weeks ago, A doctor told me that
anytime someone asks her aboutmarijuana or for medical marijuana,
she just says, hey, this isthe book you need.
And she gives them the link tothe book and asks them to do that
(14:55):
because she's not willing togive that.
I'm curious.
Before we ran across you inthe summit, I really have not heard
many doctors ringing the alarmbells about marijuana.
Why is that?
I think there's so much pushback.
And there's also, like I toldyou, even as a doctor, I didn't understand
(15:17):
the effects.
I kind of believed what Iheard from pop culture and the media
before I really starteddigging into this.
And I, I don't think it's, it's.
People are.
I, I don't think it, thatit's, that they don't care about
it.
They just don't understand the risk.
And when they really startlooking into it, they, they do understand
(15:38):
the risk.
Now, like I said, ER doctors,there, there's, there's a lot of
specialists, er doctors,neurologists, psychiatrists, they
understand the effects for themost part, but a lot of other specialists,
yeah, we see some of theeffects, but then, you know, they
just don't really understandand they don't want the pushback.
(15:58):
Honestly, some of them, they.
You get a lot of pushback whenyou start pushing in this direction.
Wow.
So do you have a specific caseexample from your practice that illustrates,
kind of.
You talked about your, your relative.
But are there other casestudies that you have that you've.
From your practice that talkabout the adverse effects of marijuana?
(16:19):
Yeah, I, I see people withsignificant anxiety all the time.
And at this point, I know alot of times that that that's due
to marijuana.
These young people that, thathave just an incredible amount of
anxiety.
I pretty much know thatthey're using marijuana.
Not, not always.
They, they may have otherpsychiatric issues, but a lot of
(16:43):
times that's, that's the case.
And one thing that I see, atleast on a weekly basis and sometimes
even a couple of weeks ago, Ihad two in one day.
But I see that it takes somuch more propofol to keep patients
sedated.
You know, the, I had a patientthat, that told me, no, I don't use
(17:04):
marijuana.
And I suspected that he did.
I suspected that he was nottelling me the truth.
Really nice young man.
But, you know, he didn't wantme to know that he was using.
Well, I gave him the normalamount of propofol.
He was still wide awake.
I gave him half again what Ihad given him before.
He was still completely awake,you know, just barely, barely relaxed.
(17:27):
I gave him some more, and Isaid, hey, do you use marijuana?
And I know I knew what the answer.
At least I knew the what theanswer should be.
And he told me, oh, oh, yeah,all the time.
I use three or four times a day.
And then when he was fullyawake again, he would only admit
to rarely using.
He backed off on what he hadtold me.
(17:48):
But I know that when he toldme that he uses three or four times
a day, that's really the truth.
And it's funny that even mystaff can tell now.
They know.
Users, you don't always know,but you have a really good feel for
it, and we can tell.
Okay, we need extra help inthe room.
We know that this patient'sgoing to be a difficult sedation,
(18:09):
because even though they'renot telling us that they use, we
know they do.
The myth is that marijuana, ifyou are anxious, marijuana will help
to calm you down.
So people will say, I usemarijuana because it keeps me calm.
And now you're telling us thatit actually increases anxiety, so
the more anxious you are, themore marijuana you probably need
(18:31):
because you think it calms you down.
Exactly.
Yeah.
There's so many things, somany directions I could go with with
that statement and thequestion there.
But number one, marijuana causes.
It almost doubles your risk ofgeneral anxiety disorder.
It's.
(18:51):
It's a 92% increase.
So, yes, when you're on it,you have that dopamine hit, you feel
good, at least for most people.
But even some people when they're.
They have significant anxiety.
But definitely when you comedown, then you have more anxiety
than you would have had hadyou not used.
And it all has to do with dopamine?
(19:14):
Yes, the.
The marijuana works on thecannabinoid receptors, you know,
in the brain and elsewhere inthe body.
But ultimately it leads to a.
A boost in your dopamine,which is the pleasure chemical of
the body.
Well, when you come down fromthat, your body now thinks, okay,
I have to.
I have too much dopamine, so Ineed to produce less dopamine, and
(19:38):
I need to have lesssensitivity to dopamine as well.
So now without that extra hitof marijuana, now you're feeling
like, you're feeling horrible,you're feeling more anxious, you
have more depression.
And so you need that hit, youneed that marijuana now just to feel
normal.
(19:59):
And without it, all thepsychiatric issues that.
That we see with it and theaddiction occur.
So being also a minister, howdo you incorporate biblical principles
into your marrow, into a talkabout marijuana use and to kind of
help treat people who aredealing with marijuana.
(20:20):
Well, I, I have a, an expandededition of my book, Weeding out the
Myths About Marijuana.
There's, there's a, there's astandard edition which only has secular
information.
You know, it's for, for publicschools and law enforcement agencies
and, and people that, thatdon't want to look at the spiritual
(20:41):
side of things.
But the expanded edition hasthree extra chapters and woven throughout
the whole book is a biblicaland spiritual perspective because
I know that when people ignorethat side of their life, it often
leads to failure when theyattempt to overcome addiction.
(21:01):
And so I like to talk aboutthat biblical and spiritual side
of things.
I give six reasons, biblicalreasons in the book that people shouldn't
use marijuana, for instance,it makes you a slave to sin.
Addiction is slavery.
And I use Galatians 5, onewhich talks about it is for freedom
(21:22):
that Christ has set us free.
Stand firm and don't letyourself be burdened again with the
yoke of slavery.
And we know that 30 to 46%,30% overall of all people who use
marijuana are addicted andcan't stop.
46% of young people areaddicted and can't stop.
And those are CDC statistics.
(21:43):
So I use that in many more scriptures.
God wants that.
He wants to be our source ofpeace and our joy.
There's a lot of scripturesthat talk about that.
And then I go into the, thefact that, you know, God calls us
to be sober at all times.
And there's a, there's a lotof scriptures.
Paul wrote scriptures to, toTitus and, and to Timothy, to, to
(22:08):
four of the churches, four ofthe epistles that he wrote.
He talked about sobriety, andPeter talks about it as well.
And God really commands us tobe sober.
And I give nine reasons for that.
And it's not that God wants totake away our fun, it's that he loves
us, he knows what's best for us.
And, and not being sober ordrunkenness, if you want to say it
(22:30):
that way, leads to poorjudgment, it leads to indulgence
in sin, it leads to poverty,it leads to loss of spiritual insight,
it leads to attacks of the enemy.
And, and when you, you look atall those things, I just can't see
a reason that someone wouldwant to, to live a life where, where
they are drunk.
How is that version of youredition of your book being received?
(22:54):
Very well.
There, you know, there arepeople, people that aren't Christians.
Sometimes, you know, they'll,they'll laugh at me and say, you
know, the Bible shouldn't haveanything to do with science and things
like that.
You know, they should becompletely separate.
And you know, all the, all thethings that, that we hear from, from
people who are not just notChristian, but, but anti Christian.
(23:16):
You know, I, you know, thosepeople, they're going to be against
whatever I say.
They're, they're against thefact that, that I'm against that
I don't support marijuana, etc.
But for the most part,especially from the Christian community,
I.
It's been received very well.
And even people that aren'tChristian, the book, the expanded
(23:37):
edition, has much more depthbecause of the spiritual side of
it, and that has been received really.
Some of my friends who I knowdon't know the Lord, they have really
enjoyed that expanded edition.
So I use it as a tool reallyfor witnessing to a lot of people.
(23:58):
For those church leaderslistening to our podcast going, this
would be a really goodworkshop seminar in my congregation.
How would you recommend theytake the book and the information
and maybe turn that into kindof a support group for their community?
Well, one of the things that,that I wrote, I didn't just write
the two books, but I wrote twostudy guides.
(24:19):
I have a study guide with eachone of those.
And it's made for Biblestudies for, or, or for, for the
secular version, for, for justknow, community groups, etc.
But each chapter has a studythat goes along with it.
So it's already there for you.
You don't have to develop it.
(24:40):
It's already developed foryou, and it's really great.
I've had great feedback onthat as well.
Would you start with parentsor would you start with young people
who maybe not understand theimportance of not getting hooked
on marijuana?
Well, we definitely have toget parents on board.
(25:00):
There's absolutely no doubtabout that.
And when we can get them onboard, then they can teach their
children.
But absolutely.
I mean, I think it's amultifaceted approach.
I don't think we can just keyin on one or the other.
I think it's both and noteither or.
That's great.
So I know we talked a littlebit about the legal issues involving
(25:21):
marijuana.
How do you address that inyour book?
Well, I talk about whatlegalization does, and there are
so many studies that show thatlegalization leads to more suicide,
it leads to more use, it leadsto more psychosis, it leads to more
hospitalizations, it leads tomore car accidents.
(25:41):
I mean, you can just go on andon all the problems that it causes.
It leads to more crime.
You know, you think it's goingto lead to less crime.
It leads to more addiction.
People think that, oh, welegalize it and then people will
use that instead of opioids.
Well, guess what happens whenyou legalize it?
They get addicted to marijuanaand opioids.
So, you know, there's just somany things when we legalize it.
(26:05):
If you really look at thestatistics, the statistics are staggering
against it.
Wow.
So what you.
You've got this project.
Is there something else you'reworking on in the future?
Well, I, I do have a couple ofbooks that, that I wrote during.
Actually during the M.
(26:26):
Div.
Process.
I, I have people that want meto write one about hallucinogens,
because that's another issuethat we're seeing.
That, that's a, you know, it'sa, it's a hot topic right now.
Hallucinogens, hallucinogensare, are a very high hot topic.
And I've thought about doing that.
(26:46):
I haven't decided to do thatyet, but I, I wrote a book about
repentance and one about Gideon.
There's, there's a Bible studythat I wrote.
I had had the opportunity towrite a Bible study during my M.
Div.
Program, and I, I think that'sprobably where I'm.
Where I'm headed next isGideon and then to a book about repentance.
(27:08):
We, we don't really understand repentance.
It's.
It's much more than, than whatwe really understand.
It's very true.
I love to ask my guest this question.
What do you want your legacyto be?
I definitely want to be knownas someone who loves God, loves people.
And Jesus said that's the mostimportant thing.
(27:29):
Right.
And so I trust his judgment.
I want to be remembered assomeone who loved people enough that
I was willing to.
To tell them the truth.
I didn't let them languish,you know, and possibly not even be
saved.
So I just want to love God andlove people and lead as many people
as I can to him.
As we wrap up ourconversation, what key takeaways
(27:53):
do you want to leave with theaudience about our discussion today?
Well, marijuana is not abenign drug.
That, that's, that is woventhroughout the whole book.
That, that's what the wholebook is about.
It's about the dangers of marijuana.
And whether you're looking atit from a societal standpoint, an
economic standpoint, a medicalstandpoint, a psychiatric standpoint,
(28:18):
you know, it's, it's not adrug that is benign.
It's a drug that causessignificant problems and can even
lead to death.
And so I hope that, thatpeople will, will understand that.
And again, my, my book talksabout that throughout.
Well, I hope the listenerswill take this podcast and share
(28:38):
it widely across their spherebecause I think this is a conversation
we don't have much of or very often.
And I don't think peopleunderstand exactly how dangerous
this drug is.
We've been told it's just a,it's a party drug and there's no
consequences for gettinginvolved and indulging in it.
So I'm glad you set someimportant light on the topic for
(28:59):
us.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
And I hope your listeners willalso go to drwiggins.coM-R-W-I-G-G-I-N-S.com
and follow me on social media.
And there's a whole lot ofresources there, especially if someone
has an addiction issue.
There are a lot of resourcesthere that can help you overcome
(29:20):
that.
And don't try to do it alone.
That's, that's another thing Iwant to tell your listeners.
Please don't try to do this alone.
You know, allow your, yourpastors, your, your teachers, your
counselors, etc, to, to helpyou because people that try to do
it alone usually fail.
And where can they find your book?
Anywhere books are sold.
But Amazon.com is, is a greatplace to find it.
(29:44):
But anywhere books are sold,you can find it.
Is there anything I haven'tasked you that I should have asked
you?
Well, you did a great job.
I will tell you one morething, that my Audible book actually
just came out.
I haven't announced itanywhere yet.
So this is an exclusive.
This is an exclusive breaking news.
(30:04):
The Audible book just cameout, the expanded edition.
And it's, it's on Audible andyou can find it on Amazon.
I hope you'll go get it.
And who was who?
Read if it was a James Earl Jones.
No, the gentleman that did it.
You, you asked me a questionthat I wasn't prepared for.
There.
I wish I could remember his name.
He.
Great guy, really great voice.
(30:26):
And he did, he did anincredible job.
But it's not James Earl Jones.
I love his voice as well.
Of course.
Who wouldn't like that voice?
Well, Dr.
Wiggins, thank you so much forwhat you do and thank you for talking
about this topic.
Like I said, I just don'tthink enough of it's been told and
we've been really given theimpression that hey, this is not
(30:46):
a big deal, and anyone can doit and have fun and just fala la,
la, la, you know?
So I'm glad you kind of openour eyes that there's something deeper
and.
And more sinister behind thatthan we been led to believe.
Well, thank you for allowingme to.
To talk to your audience aboutthat, and I'm just honored to have
(31:07):
been able to do it.
Well, thank you.
Blessings on the work you'redoing, and.
Blessings to you as well.
Thank you.
Foreign.
Welcome to the podcast.
How you doing today, my friend?
I am great.
How are you, Keith?
I'm good.
It's good to have you on.
Looking forward to talkingabout this important topic today.
So we're going to jump rightin with some great conversation.
Glad to do it.
Glad to be here and honored tobe here.
(01:20):
So we're going to start withmy favorite question first.
What's the best piece ofadvice you've ever received?
There was a gentleman in mychurch growing up.
He was our guitar player, agreat man.
He was about 10 years olderthan me and kind of a mentor to me.
And he told me one time, and Idon't remember the conversation other
than what he told me is that acalm sea never made a skillful sailor.
(01:45):
And I've always remembered that.
And I found it to be so true.
You know, any adversity inlife, you don't like it while you're
going through it.
But man, you look back on itand you know that you've grown and
wouldn't be the person thatyou are today without it.
And for instance, theadversity that I've seen in my family
(02:06):
with drugs and marijuana,alcohol, etc, I wouldn't be able
to minister to people today inthose situations had that not happened
to me and my family.
That is so true that those,those ways that God has used those
things in our life to prepareus for what's next I think are just
so critical.
Absolutely.
(02:27):
So, Dr.
Wayman Wiggins, tell us alittle bit about your background.
Kind of walk us through howyou, because you have a very diverse
background, MDIV, MD.
So kind of walk us throughyour, your journey.
Well, my first degree was abusiness degree from smu.
And I thought I was going togo into business with my dad.
(02:48):
He had a construction company.
He was successful through theseventies and most of the eighties,
but I was about to graduate inthe late eighties from, from college.
And he came to me justliterally a few months beforehand
and he said, hey son, I amstarving right now and if you come
into business with me, you'regoing to starve as well.
And I don't want that for you.
(03:10):
And I recommend that you lookfor something else.
And I didn't want to hearthat, but I knew that he loved me
and I knew that he was tellingme what was best for me.
So I started looking at otherthings and I saw that oral and maxillofacial
surgeons got to fix cleft lipand palate and do other craniofacial
stuff.
And I thought Hey, I thoughtthat's what I would be doing if I
(03:32):
did that.
And so I thought that's a wayto help people and I just thought
that would be amazing.
So I went into that field andmost OMSs get both their dental degree
and their medical degreebecause it's kind of the bridge between
the two.
And so I got that.
And then later on, about 10years ago I started really.
(03:57):
I've always felt a call toministry but I just decided to at
that point really yield to itmore and you know, a deeper calling
and, and decided to get my M.
Div And I went to RegentUniversity and it was a great experience.
I learned a lot.
I feel much more comfortableministering, writing, delivering
(04:19):
sermons, lectures, writingbooks, et cetera.
It was great.
So how do you balance allthose different interests with all
the things you have going onin your life?
Well, if you ask my wife,she'll tell you it's probably not
very balanced and she'sprobably right.
I burn the candle at both ends.
(04:39):
I have four children as welland a full time job in practice as
well as a lot of ministrycommitments, a whole lot more.
And I was just asked to takeanother role here just this past
Friday, which I'm prayingabout it but I can't imagine that
I wouldn't ex.
Wouldn't step into that newrole as well.
So the good Lord's doing greatthings through, through my ministry
(05:02):
and I'm so thankful, just oddat what he's doing in my life and
thankful.
So it kind of reminds me ofthe, the Spider man phrase.
With great talent comes great responsibility.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
One of my mentors told methat, that you know, if you are,
(05:23):
are blessed then you need tobe blessing other people.
He was the leader of theresidency program that I was in.
Mark Wong, great man.
And he told me that.
So it's kind of the, the same thing.
It just a little different wording.
Yeah, I kind of, I kind offudged a little bit on the Spider
man line, but it kind ofapplied to this, this situation.
(05:45):
Yep, absolutely.
So you've been on the frontlines of patient care for nearly
three decades.
Can you share some of the mostsignificant changes you've seen in
a medical field during that time?
Yeah, especially well inanesthesia, the anesthesia side of
things.
Most oral and maxillofacialsurgeons do.
(06:08):
The vast majority of ourprocedures are under general anesthetic
and I've seen a big change inthe meds that we've used.
The drugs, the anestheticdrugs, they're much cleaner, fewer
side effects, they're shorteracting, they're a lot safer.
That's a big difference thatI've seen.
And that all happened around20, 25 years ago.
(06:30):
And then the imaging that weuse is way different.
You know, when I started, wewere using plain films for, for radiographs.
I would, you know, we had adark room in our office and the staff
would take the, theradiograph, they would take it to
the dark room and develop it.
Well now, of course,everything's instant, it's all digital.
And I have a CT scanner in myoffice and you know, now I can go
(06:54):
into surgery.
You, years ago, I would go inliterally blind.
I, you know, it's, I don'teven know how we did it back then,
but, but we did.
You know, the first decadethat I was doing this, I was blind.
But now I go in there and Iknow before I get in there the precise
location of, you know, ifthere's a lesion, for instance, a
(07:15):
cyst or a tumor or somethinglike that in a jawbone or, you know,
inside, in the face orwhatever, I can know the precise
location and, and the exactdimensions of it, you know, down
to 100th of a millimeter, how,how big it is.
So that's a, that's a hugedifference between now and 30 years
ago.
So let's get into why I kindof had you come on and you have a
(07:38):
new book out, Weeding out theMyths about Marijuana.
What motivated you to delveinto that topic and write a book
about it?
Well, there's a professionalside, first of all.
About 10 years ago, I, alongwith many of my medical colleagues,
began seeing that many peoplewere becoming much more difficult
(08:00):
to sedate.
We were using three to fourtimes more propofol for these total
IV anesthetics.
And people were often stillawake and struggling and even fighting
us.
And we didn't understand whatwas happening.
It was happening mostly inyoung people, but not exclusively.
And, and after several yearsof study, we determined that it was
marijuana use that was causing that.
(08:21):
And then we saw that thesepatients were having much more anxiety.
They were taking 58% more postoperative pain medication.
That's the professional sideand then the personal side.
I come from a large family andthere are just so many people that
have been addicted to drugs,alcohol, et cetera.
(08:42):
And unfortunately, I'vewitnessed the devastating effects
in my family leading topremature death in some of them.
Three of my cousins, I have nodoubt would be here today if not
for marijuana.
One died of a Sudden heart attack.
After smoking it Heavily forabout 30 years, two others started
with marijuana and moved on toother drugs.
(09:04):
But if not for marijuana, theywouldn't have died from those other
drugs.
And then a few years ago,another close family member, a very
close family member, washeaded in the right direction.
He grew up going to church.
He went to a Christian schoolwhen he was young.
He graduated high school andwent to college with a young man
that he had grown up with.
They were in youth grouptogether at church, but they got
(09:27):
to school and got in with agroup of guys who were smoking marijuana.
And they thought, hey,everybody is doing it.
Everybody seems to be okay, sowhy not?
And so they, they startedsmoking it as well.
And the second time they didthis, this young man had a psychotic
episode and he thought peoplewere chasing him.
He was displaying very bizarre behavior.
He didn't know his own identity.
(09:48):
And he was taken to apsychiatric hospital and doctors
told our family that he mightnever be the same.
He was released, butunfortunately he was never able to
return to school.
So I, I began investigatingthe subject and what I found really
shocked me.
What I found, you know, what Ihad heard from pop culture and most
of marijuana being safe andbenign just wasn't true.
(10:10):
And so I started speakingabout what I was finding.
So you'd mentioned your research.
What are some of the mostshocking things you found, your research
on effects of marijuana?
There's, there's a lot of them.
The, probably the three mostshocking are the greatly increased
risk of a suicide attempt,especially in young people, somewhere
(10:32):
between three to three and ahalf to nine times the risk of a
suicide attempt.
The risk of psychosis is up tosix times normal in marijuana users.
There's a huge study about that.
And then the risk of heart attack.
You know, until my cousin hadthat heart attack, I hadn't even
(10:53):
really thought about that.
I looked into it a little bitbecause the other incident happened
just several months before that.
And so I was already lookingat marijuana.
But when I started lookinginto heart attack, there's a five
times risk of a heart attackfor an hour after smoking marijuana.
I had no idea, even as adoctor that that was the case.
(11:14):
So why is it that we're toldall around that marijuana is a safe
drug and it's not a gatewaydrug and it's okay, and let's legalize
it because it really is harmless.
Why are people.
I shouldn't say, you can'ttell if a.
Why is that narrative beingpushed so much?
I think it's a profit Motive.
(11:35):
I just got back from aconference in D.C.
i was able to speak at thatconference, the Good Drug policy
conference in D.C.
and so many of the peoplethere were telling us the profit
motive behind this.
You know, if there wasn't ahuge profit motive.
Think about it this way.
(11:56):
Florida Amendment 3 that theywere trying to push to get it legalized
in Florida, which thankfully failed.
One Canadian company, just oneCanadian company, put $100 million,
over $100 million into thatreferendum trying to get it legalized.
If there wasn't a huge profitmotive there, they wouldn't have
(12:17):
done that.
And I also heard at thatconference that George Soros has
put $70 million into it, intothe cannabis industry.
So, you know, thesebillionaires that, that already have
a lot of money but are wantingto make more money on the backs of
our children, you know,they're, they're putting a lot of
money into this.
(12:39):
That is, that is shocking.
So, so kind of give us anoverview of your book.
What are the topics that youcover and how do you lay the book
out for those who pick this up?
Well, I, I start out talkingabout the, the economic and societal
impacts of it.
And then I, the, the medicalimpacts, both physical and mental
(13:02):
health.
I talk about the problems withthe, with the brain, with the heart,
with the lungs, with theimmune system.
And then I go into the, themental health effects, the increased
suicide, the increasedschizophrenia and anxiety, et cetera,
even personality disorders andsubstance use disorders, of course.
(13:26):
And then I, in the expandededition, I go into the biblical side
of things too, and I talkabout what the Bible says about it.
And even though the Bibledoesn't use the words cannabis or
marijuana, it does have a lotto say about this subject.
Are you getting any pushbackfrom your research, from the medical
profession about this topic?
(13:48):
You know, I really haven't,not from the medical profession.
The pushback that I get isfrom a lot on social media.
There's just a lot of trollsout there and they're, they're not
people that are, that haveexpertise in the area.
The, the medical community hasbeen overwhelmingly supportive because
(14:08):
we see it, no matter whatspecialty we're in, we're seeing
the devastating effects.
Whether it's ER doctors, I'mgetting a lot of feedback from them.
Great feedback.
Neurologists, people that,that are our therapist and psychologists,
LPCs, they're all giving megreat feedback.
And in fact, a very prominentneurologist wrote the forward for
(14:32):
my book and she just ravedabout it.
Also recently, just a coupleof weeks ago, A doctor told me that
anytime someone asks her aboutmarijuana or for medical marijuana,
she just says, hey, this isthe book you need.
And she gives them the link tothe book and asks them to do that
(14:55):
because she's not willing togive that.
I'm curious.
Before we ran across you inthe summit, I really have not heard
many doctors ringing the alarmbells about marijuana.
Why is that?
I think there's so much pushback.
And there's also, like I toldyou, even as a doctor, I didn't understand
(15:17):
the effects.
I kind of believed what Iheard from pop culture and the media
before I really starteddigging into this.
And I, I don't think it's, it's.
People are.
I, I don't think it, thatit's, that they don't care about
it.
They just don't understand the risk.
And when they really startlooking into it, they, they do understand
(15:38):
the risk.
Now, like I said, ER doctors,there, there's, there's a lot of
specialists, er doctors,neurologists, psychiatrists, they
understand the effects for themost part, but a lot of other specialists,
yeah, we see some of theeffects, but then, you know, they
just don't really understandand they don't want the pushback.
(15:58):
Honestly, some of them, they.
You get a lot of pushback whenyou start pushing in this direction.
Wow.
So do you have a specific caseexample from your practice that illustrates,
kind of.
You talked about your, your relative.
But are there other casestudies that you have that you've.
From your practice that talkabout the adverse effects of marijuana?
(16:19):
Yeah, I, I see people withsignificant anxiety all the time.
And at this point, I know alot of times that that that's due
to marijuana.
These young people that, thathave just an incredible amount of
anxiety.
I pretty much know thatthey're using marijuana.
Not, not always.
They, they may have otherpsychiatric issues, but a lot of
(16:43):
times that's, that's the case.
And one thing that I see, atleast on a weekly basis and sometimes
even a couple of weeks ago, Ihad two in one day.
But I see that it takes somuch more propofol to keep patients
sedated.
You know, the, I had a patientthat, that told me, no, I don't use
(17:04):
marijuana.
And I suspected that he did.
I suspected that he was nottelling me the truth.
Really nice young man.
But, you know, he didn't wantme to know that he was using.
Well, I gave him the normalamount of propofol.
He was still wide awake.
I gave him half again what Ihad given him before.
He was still completely awake,you know, just barely, barely relaxed.
(17:27):
I gave him some more, and Isaid, hey, do you use marijuana?
And I know I knew what the answer.
At least I knew the what theanswer should be.
And he told me, oh, oh, yeah,all the time.
I use three or four times a day.
And then when he was fullyawake again, he would only admit
to rarely using.
He backed off on what he hadtold me.
(17:48):
But I know that when he toldme that he uses three or four times
a day, that's really the truth.
And it's funny that even mystaff can tell now.
They know.
Users, you don't always know,but you have a really good feel for
it, and we can tell.
Okay, we need extra help inthe room.
We know that this patient'sgoing to be a difficult sedation,
(18:09):
because even though they'renot telling us that they use, we
know they do.
The myth is that marijuana, ifyou are anxious, marijuana will help
to calm you down.
So people will say, I usemarijuana because it keeps me calm.
And now you're telling us thatit actually increases anxiety, so
the more anxious you are, themore marijuana you probably need
(18:31):
because you think it calms you down.
Exactly.
Yeah.
There's so many things, somany directions I could go with with
that statement and thequestion there.
But number one, marijuana causes.
It almost doubles your risk ofgeneral anxiety disorder.
It's.
(18:51):
It's a 92% increase.
So, yes, when you're on it,you have that dopamine hit, you feel
good, at least for most people.
But even some people when they're.
They have significant anxiety.
But definitely when you comedown, then you have more anxiety
than you would have had hadyou not used.
And it all has to do with dopamine?
(19:14):
Yes, the.
The marijuana works on thecannabinoid receptors, you know,
in the brain and elsewhere inthe body.
But ultimately it leads to a.
A boost in your dopamine,which is the pleasure chemical of
the body.
Well, when you come down fromthat, your body now thinks, okay,
I have to.
I have too much dopamine, so Ineed to produce less dopamine, and
(19:38):
I need to have lesssensitivity to dopamine as well.
So now without that extra hitof marijuana, now you're feeling
like, you're feeling horrible,you're feeling more anxious, you
have more depression.
And so you need that hit, youneed that marijuana now just to feel
normal.
(19:59):
And without it, all thepsychiatric issues that.
That we see with it and theaddiction occur.
So being also a minister, howdo you incorporate biblical principles
into your marrow, into a talkabout marijuana use and to kind of
help treat people who aredealing with marijuana.
(20:20):
Well, I, I have a, an expandededition of my book, Weeding out the
Myths About Marijuana.
There's, there's a, there's astandard edition which only has secular
information.
You know, it's for, for publicschools and law enforcement agencies
and, and people that, thatdon't want to look at the spiritual
(20:41):
side of things.
But the expanded edition hasthree extra chapters and woven throughout
the whole book is a biblicaland spiritual perspective because
I know that when people ignorethat side of their life, it often
leads to failure when theyattempt to overcome addiction.
(21:01):
And so I like to talk aboutthat biblical and spiritual side
of things.
I give six reasons, biblicalreasons in the book that people shouldn't
use marijuana, for instance,it makes you a slave to sin.
Addiction is slavery.
And I use Galatians 5, onewhich talks about it is for freedom
(21:22):
that Christ has set us free.
Stand firm and don't letyourself be burdened again with the
yoke of slavery.
And we know that 30 to 46%,30% overall of all people who use
marijuana are addicted andcan't stop.
46% of young people areaddicted and can't stop.
And those are CDC statistics.
(21:43):
So I use that in many more scriptures.
God wants that.
He wants to be our source ofpeace and our joy.
There's a lot of scripturesthat talk about that.
And then I go into the, thefact that, you know, God calls us
to be sober at all times.
And there's a, there's a lotof scriptures.
Paul wrote scriptures to, toTitus and, and to Timothy, to, to
(22:08):
four of the churches, four ofthe epistles that he wrote.
He talked about sobriety, andPeter talks about it as well.
And God really commands us tobe sober.
And I give nine reasons for that.
And it's not that God wants totake away our fun, it's that he loves
us, he knows what's best for us.
And, and not being sober ordrunkenness, if you want to say it
(22:30):
that way, leads to poorjudgment, it leads to indulgence
in sin, it leads to poverty,it leads to loss of spiritual insight,
it leads to attacks of the enemy.
And, and when you, you look atall those things, I just can't see
a reason that someone wouldwant to, to live a life where, where
they are drunk.
How is that version of youredition of your book being received?
(22:54):
Very well.
There, you know, there arepeople, people that aren't Christians.
Sometimes, you know, they'll,they'll laugh at me and say, you
know, the Bible shouldn't haveanything to do with science and things
like that.
You know, they should becompletely separate.
And you know, all the, all thethings that, that we hear from, from
people who are not just notChristian, but, but anti Christian.
(23:16):
You know, I, you know, thosepeople, they're going to be against
whatever I say.
They're, they're against thefact that, that I'm against that
I don't support marijuana, etc.
But for the most part,especially from the Christian community,
I.
It's been received very well.
And even people that aren'tChristian, the book, the expanded
(23:37):
edition, has much more depthbecause of the spiritual side of
it, and that has been received really.
Some of my friends who I knowdon't know the Lord, they have really
enjoyed that expanded edition.
So I use it as a tool reallyfor witnessing to a lot of people.
(23:58):
For those church leaderslistening to our podcast going, this
would be a really goodworkshop seminar in my congregation.
How would you recommend theytake the book and the information
and maybe turn that into kindof a support group for their community?
Well, one of the things that,that I wrote, I didn't just write
the two books, but I wrote twostudy guides.
(24:19):
I have a study guide with eachone of those.
And it's made for Biblestudies for, or, or for, for the
secular version, for, for justknow, community groups, etc.
But each chapter has a studythat goes along with it.
So it's already there for you.
You don't have to develop it.
(24:40):
It's already developed foryou, and it's really great.
I've had great feedback onthat as well.
Would you start with parentsor would you start with young people
who maybe not understand theimportance of not getting hooked
on marijuana?
Well, we definitely have toget parents on board.
(25:00):
There's absolutely no doubtabout that.
And when we can get them onboard, then they can teach their
children.
But absolutely.
I mean, I think it's amultifaceted approach.
I don't think we can just keyin on one or the other.
I think it's both and noteither or.
That's great.
So I know we talked a littlebit about the legal issues involving
(25:21):
marijuana.
How do you address that inyour book?
Well, I talk about whatlegalization does, and there are
so many studies that show thatlegalization leads to more suicide,
it leads to more use, it leadsto more psychosis, it leads to more
hospitalizations, it leads tomore car accidents.
(25:41):
I mean, you can just go on andon all the problems that it causes.
It leads to more crime.
You know, you think it's goingto lead to less crime.
It leads to more addiction.
People think that, oh, welegalize it and then people will
use that instead of opioids.
Well, guess what happens whenyou legalize it?
They get addicted to marijuanaand opioids.
So, you know, there's just somany things when we legalize it.
(26:05):
If you really look at thestatistics, the statistics are staggering
against it.
Wow.
So what you.
You've got this project.
Is there something else you'reworking on in the future?
Well, I, I do have a couple ofbooks that, that I wrote during.
Actually during the M.
(26:26):
Div.
Process.
I, I have people that want meto write one about hallucinogens,
because that's another issuethat we're seeing.
That, that's a, you know, it'sa, it's a hot topic right now.
Hallucinogens, hallucinogensare, are a very high hot topic.
And I've thought about doing that.
(26:46):
I haven't decided to do thatyet, but I, I wrote a book about
repentance and one about Gideon.
There's, there's a Bible studythat I wrote.
I had had the opportunity towrite a Bible study during my M.
Div.
Program, and I, I think that'sprobably where I'm.
Where I'm headed next isGideon and then to a book about repentance.
(27:08):
We, we don't really understand repentance.
It's.
It's much more than, than whatwe really understand.
It's very true.
I love to ask my guest this question.
What do you want your legacyto be?
I definitely want to be knownas someone who loves God, loves people.
And Jesus said that's the mostimportant thing.
(27:29):
Right.
And so I trust his judgment.
I want to be remembered assomeone who loved people enough that
I was willing to.
To tell them the truth.
I didn't let them languish,you know, and possibly not even be
saved.
So I just want to love God andlove people and lead as many people
as I can to him.
As we wrap up ourconversation, what key takeaways
(27:53):
do you want to leave with theaudience about our discussion today?
Well, marijuana is not abenign drug.
That, that's, that is woventhroughout the whole book.
That, that's what the wholebook is about.
It's about the dangers of marijuana.
And whether you're looking atit from a societal standpoint, an
economic standpoint, a medicalstandpoint, a psychiatric standpoint,
(28:18):
you know, it's, it's not adrug that is benign.
It's a drug that causessignificant problems and can even
lead to death.
And so I hope that, thatpeople will, will understand that.
And again, my, my book talksabout that throughout.
Well, I hope the listenerswill take this podcast and share
(28:38):
it widely across their spherebecause I think this is a conversation
we don't have much of or very often.
And I don't think peopleunderstand exactly how dangerous
this drug is.
We've been told it's just a,it's a party drug and there's no
consequences for gettinginvolved and indulging in it.
So I'm glad you set someimportant light on the topic for
(28:59):
us.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
And I hope your listeners willalso go to drwiggins.coM-R-W-I-G-G-I-N-S.com
and follow me on social media.
And there's a whole lot ofresources there, especially if someone
has an addiction issue.
There are a lot of resourcesthere that can help you overcome
(29:20):
that.
And don't try to do it alone.
That's, that's another thing Iwant to tell your listeners.
Please don't try to do this alone.
You know, allow your, yourpastors, your, your teachers, your
counselors, etc, to, to helpyou because people that try to do
it alone usually fail.
And where can they find your book?
Anywhere books are sold.
But Amazon.com is, is a greatplace to find it.
(29:44):
But anywhere books are sold,you can find it.
Is there anything I haven'tasked you that I should have asked
you?
Well, you did a great job.
I will tell you one morething, that my Audible book actually
just came out.
I haven't announced itanywhere yet.
So this is an exclusive.
This is an exclusive breaking news.
(30:04):
The Audible book just cameout, the expanded edition.
And it's, it's on Audible andyou can find it on Amazon.
I hope you'll go get it.
And who was who?
Read if it was a James Earl Jones.
No, the gentleman that did it.
You, you asked me a questionthat I wasn't prepared for.
There.
I wish I could remember his name.
He.
Great guy, really great voice.
(30:26):
And he did, he did anincredible job.
But it's not James Earl Jones.
I love his voice as well.
Of course.
Who wouldn't like that voice?
Well, Dr.
Wiggins, thank you so much forwhat you do and thank you for talking
about this topic.
Like I said, I just don'tthink enough of it's been told and
we've been really given theimpression that hey, this is not
(30:46):
a big deal, and anyone can doit and have fun and just fala la,
la, la, you know?
So I'm glad you kind of openour eyes that there's something deeper
and.
And more sinister behind thatthan we been led to believe.
Well, thank you for allowingme to.
To talk to your audience aboutthat, and I'm just honored to have
(31:07):
been able to do it.
Well, thank you.
Blessings on the work you'redoing, and.
Blessings to you as well.
Thank you.
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