March 27, 2025 • 32 mins
Phil shares his 30-year journey through four back surgeries, from a herniated disc at age 22 to a successful spinal fusion in his fifties, proving that recovery and returning to an active lifestyle is possible with the right approach.
• Developed first herniated disc at L5-S1 at age 22 despite being very fit and active
• Underwent laminectomy followed by microdiscectomy at L4-5 four years later
• Returned to full athletic activity after surgeries, even running the LA marathon
• Successfully advocated for himself through the healthcare system to avoid lengthy delays
• Experienced third herniation requiring another microdiscectomy, followed by fusion six months later
• Found fusion recovery surprisingly manageable with proper preparation and the right surgeon
• Achieved complete pain relief following each surgery, including fusion
• Emphasizes importance of physical therapy for optimal recovery
• Advises not waiting too long for surgical intervention when clearly needed
• Recommends being in good physical condition before surgery for better outcomes
If you have a positive story of recovery from a serious back or neck injury, please visit bedbackbeyond.com and click "share your story" to be featured on the show.
Was this episode helpful to you? If you would like to support my work on the show, you can buy me a coffee at https://buymeacoffee.com/bedbackandbeyond
Have a positive story of recovery to tell? Head over to https://bedbackbeyond.com/share-your-story/ to apply.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Phil (00:00):
I was biking, running, doing all sorts of stuff.
Everything felt great and Ifelt that telltale tingling and
then pain right in the glutedown the leg.
That advanced pretty quickly.
Dan (00:12):
Welcome to Bed Back and Beyond, sharing positive stories
of recovery from serious backor neck injury.
Your host is CK, a fellowchampion who draws on her own
experience with herniated discsurgery.
Join her as she talks withothers who have overcome the
physical and emotional trauma ofa painful injury and discover
(00:34):
for yourself how you can findhope and encouragement in
recovery.
CK (00:40):
Hi Phil, Thank you so much for joining me on this episode
of Bed, Back and Beyond.
Before we talk about all yourinjury stories, how about you
tell us a little bit aboutyourself?
Phil (00:50):
Certainly Thanks for having me on.
My name is Phil.
I live in a little town on thesoutheast coast of Massachusetts
.
I am 55 years old, remarriedtwo kids and working primarily
from home in the IT industry.
CK (01:05):
Do you have the ocean nearby , then I do, right down the
street.
Oh nice, Does it ever get warmup there, the water?
Phil (01:13):
It does.
It takes a while, it takesuntil about July, and then July
through October.
It's beautiful outside of that.
You don't want to be swimmingaround here.
CK (01:22):
I'm like two hour hour and a half from the Jersey shore, so,
yeah, it gets warm around July,but then that's when all the
jellyfish show up and I don'twant to go in.
Phil (01:31):
There are a lot of jellyfish here too as well.
CK (01:35):
And are you from there or did you move there?
Phil (01:37):
Moved here about 20, 25 years ago, actually grew up in
the mountains of Colorado andthen spent 10 or 15 years in
Southern California and thenmoved here to start a family and
have kids.
CK (01:49):
Nice, nice.
Now, from what you sent me, itsounded like way back when, 30
some years ago, you were a veryactive guy.
What kind of things were youinto before your injury?
Phil (02:01):
I played tennis almost every day, golf, a little bit of
running, hiking.
Yeah, I was a don't sit.
Still got to be outside, wantto be doing something fun and
athletic all the time.
So I was in excellent shape.
There was no reason whatsoeverfor me to have a back injury,
but I did.
CK (02:18):
So you didn't have any kind of like back pain that was
always hanging around before it.
You just got suddenly hit withan injury.
Phil (02:25):
Suddenly hit with an injury when I was 22, active all
the time.
That turned out to be a bulgeddisc at L5-S1 that required
laminectomy surgery.
CK (02:38):
And did the injury?
Do you remember?
Were you playing a sport or didyou just wake up one morning
and suddenly you had terriblepain?
Phil (02:45):
It just.
It was that one didn't come onright away, that one came on
kind of slowly, but but it wasevident that something was wrong
.
So I went to see a neurosurgeonright away, got an MRI and, yep
, you have an injury, not fromany trauma at all, Just out of
nowhere.
And that's that.
That bared more and more truedown the line when I got more
herniations, also from no trauma, that told finally got my
(03:09):
degenerative disc diseasediagnosis and how did?
CK (03:12):
at 22, it sounds like it was pretty easy for to get the
doctor to listen to you.
I've seen on the redditcommunity a lot of the younger
guys and girls are saying I keep, keep getting waved off.
You didn't experience that.
Phil (03:24):
I didn't.
Thankfully, I had my companythat I worked for had really
good health insurance.
It was an EPO plan executivepreferred provider, so I didn't
have to go through any referrals.
I just asked around who was agood neurosurgeon in LA and got
this guy.
He sent me for an MRI rightaway at the time and I think
even still the insurance companystill required me to go through
(03:47):
conservative measures.
So it was six weeks of physicaltherapy, multiple rounds of
injections those didn't doanything and then right into
surgery.
Okay.
CK (03:58):
I only had one injection, and it lasted for about two
weeks, and then the pain cameright back.
Phil (04:02):
Yeah, back in the so back in those days.
So I went through the surgeryat L5S1 in 92, four years later
I had another bulge disc at L4-5and the insurance required me,
before both of those surgeries,to go through rounds of three
injections once a week for threeweeks.
So those were just straightcortisone and they were done in
an outpatient, so it was just alittle local numbing and they
(04:26):
stabbed me right there in theoffice.
Those did nothing.
In fact, the second round thatI got, before the four or five
surgery, he added lidocaine toit, which was like cheating.
That was like great.
Of course I felt great becauseyou stuck me with lidocaine.
Why would you do that?
Yeah, of course, the next.
That will last for like sixhours and then I'm back in the
(04:49):
pain again.
CK (04:50):
So yeah, yeah.
What kind of symptoms were youhaving at 22 that made the
doctor say let's get you an MRI?
Phil (04:58):
Pain right in the middle of the buttock.
It's that one spot thateveryone knows about.
And then it starts to radiatedown the outside at the at the,
the L5 S1, it was down the leftleg on the outside to the ankle
around the calf and into theankle, and then on the 451, four
years later that was down theright side and it was the exact
same thing.
It starts right in the glutethat one spot that everyone
knows and then starts to go downthe outside of the right leg
(05:20):
and then outside of the thighright leg and then outside of
the thigh.
Now you said he did your firstsurgery was just the laminectomy
it was.
So I had two differentexperiences, because the first
surgery was a neurosurgeon, whoare known for kind of doing more
fine surgical work.
Orthopedic surgeons are moreknown for being like carpenters
(05:41):
they do more.
They just like do more.
The neurosurgeon did just thelaminectomy, which is just
creating some space, and youleave the disc alone.
So you basically left the discherniated.
It's still there.
In fact, it's herniated eventoday.
And then, four years later, theorthopedic surgeon did a
microdiscectomy where he tookout almost a third of it.
That's the one that lasted along time.
CK (06:03):
We took out almost a third of it.
That's the one that lasted along time.
So when you had the laminectomythe first time did you wake up?
Phil (06:12):
pain-free or did you still have remaining symptoms?
No, I did so.
I've had four surgeries, eachone of them.
I wake up that nerve pain iscompletely gone.
I remember the recovery ofthose first two surgeries in
1992 and 1996 being very easy.
It was the incision pain isabsolutely nothing compared to
the nerve pain before.
So if it was just the incisionpain you'd probably be in a
world of hurt, but it wascomparatively so much less.
(06:35):
It didn't bother me a bit.
The the restrictions of notbeing able to bend, lift or
twist for six or eight weeks.
That becomes annoying andtroublesome when you live alone.
But outside of that the painwas just nothing.
It was like Christmas daygetting the surgery.
CK (06:50):
Right.
So when you had themicrodiscectomy your second
surgery was the microdiscectomyyou said right.
Dan (06:56):
Yes.
CK (06:56):
Did your disc herniate further out?
Phil (06:59):
It did so that the second surgery was at a different level
.
So the first surgery was at L5S1 and then I herniated L4 5.
That one was far worse.
That one came on pretty quicklyand within a few weeks I tried
to get up from my couch in themorning I was down on the floor
of my apartment.
I literally could not get up.
I had to reach from my phone.
My brother came and that washorrific.
(07:21):
That was the instance where theinsurance took three to four
months to just red tape, justbureaucratic stuff.
Setting an appointment to evensee a neurosurgeon was like two
or three weeks out and then itwas another month to get the MRI
and then it was a month tostart boss the other day and I
(07:42):
said I don't know if I herniateda disc again.
CK (07:44):
I don't know if I would go to the emergency room, because I
went and they didn't even do anMRI.
They said go see a painspecialist, so that was a two
week wait and then he orderedthe MRI, so that was another.
So like why did I even go to?
Phil (08:00):
the ER.
That's interesting because whenI went to the first console
with a the nurse, the orthopedicsurgeon in the practice, not
the guy who actually did thesurgery for my for my first
visit there they're the ones whoactually order the MRI, order
PT, they like start the wholeprocess.
He said you're in such badshape right now.
I could admit you if you want,and then you could go through
(08:23):
this process.
Probably it would happen fasterif I, if it was in the hospital
at the time.
You're nuts.
I'm not going to spend the nextmonth in the hospital waiting
for it.
If I'm going to wait, I'm goingto wait at home.
CK (08:34):
Yeah.
Phil (08:34):
Hindsight.
I probably should have donethat, Cause I would have gotten
that MRI a lot faster had I beenhospitalized.
But I just didn't want to dothat sitting in the hospital.
CK (08:44):
How did you deal with the idea at 20 something years old
that you were going to need backsurgery?
Phil (08:49):
It was a no brainer to just get rid of that pain.
That pain was so severe and itwas keeping me from doing the
active lifestyle that was justimperative to me.
I just could not envision alifestyle where I couldn't do
the sports that I want to do.
I do it almost every day.
So if I can't do it, there hasto be something to fix it now,
(09:10):
or I'm not going to just sit andwait.
I'm not going to do that.
CK (09:14):
So after both surgeries did you go back to playing sports?
Phil (09:18):
I did quickly, so both recoveries were very quick.
After that 1996 surgery Irecovered very quickly.
I remember he put me throughlots of home PT and I was asked
to do lots of walking.
At that point I was living inSouthern California so I was
walking on the beach and after acouple of weeks of that I'm
like this just feels like I'mnot doing anything.
And I called him and said can Istart running?
And he said if you can runwithout pain, do whatever you
(09:41):
can do.
And I started running.
That sped up the recoverybecause the more you move like
everyone knows, the more youmove, the better your recovery
goes.
I recovered from that and thatlasted 35 years.
CK (09:52):
So you were golfing, running all that.
Phil (09:55):
Everything, no restrictions, doing all my
sports.
I ran the LA marathon.
I just was active all the time.
I had flare-ups Like I wouldhave.
Every few years we have aflare-up, either a minor one or
a major one, that would requireprednisone or another injection,
but I dealt with those up untillast year.
CK (10:17):
But then something else happened.
Phil (10:19):
Yeah, so feeling great.
I got into road biking.
I was biking 200 to 300 miles aweek and feeling really good.
And then I herniated the L4-5in February of last year.
I'm sorry, would this be thesecond herniation then on the
L4-5 in February of last year?
CK (10:31):
I'm sorry.
Would this be the secondherniation then on the L?
Phil (10:34):
The second herniation at L4-5.
Yeah, 5-1 was herniated firstand it's still there and it's
just.
It's just herniated but notcausing any pain Not causing
pain, it's just there, okay.
So L4-5, I felt that telltaleAgain, no trauma leading up to
it, I didn't have didn't fall,didn't slip, nothing like that
happened.
Just I felt that telltale rightin the glute.
I was telling my wife whenwe're walking every day I'm like
(10:55):
this is not good.
I know what this feels like Ifit starts going down the leg.
I know I'm in real trouble.
So I called, I started thiswhole insurance nightmare again.
So I called my primary caredoctor and he said great, I can
see you, I can get you areferral for an orthopedic
surgeon.
My next appointment is in sixweeks.
CK (11:13):
Your primary care was six weeks, six weeks out.
Phil (11:16):
I'm like that's not going to happen.
So I found an orthopedicsurgeon in my hospital group,
called him directly and said I'mgoing to come see you.
He's fine, you can see me in mynext appointments in eight
weeks.
I'm like this is not going towork.
So I went to urgent care andsaid I need prednisone and she
gave me one.
This nurse practitioner wasfabulous.
I said if you can hook me upwith an orthopedic surgeon visit
(11:38):
, that would be even better.
And she said be right back.
She came back in the room andsaid do you have an appointment
tomorrow?
CK (11:44):
Great.
Phil (11:45):
Yes, all I need.
I don't know this guy at all,but if he can get me hooked up
with an MRI which he did.
I saw him the next morning andhe was like you just went to
urgent care yesterday and you'reseeing a neurosurgeon.
CK (12:00):
So he said that just doesn't happen.
Phil (12:01):
I know the system, I know how it works.
He said he just did what theyall do, which is, I mean,
schedule you for MRI.
You're going to start six weeksof physical therapy and then
come back and come back and seeme.
CK (12:12):
Any improvement with the physical therapy.
Phil (12:15):
No, I got hooked up with the most phenomenal physical
therapist ever.
This guy is super, superknowledgeable.
He has you told me he was.
He has enough education to be ageneral practitioner as to be
like a family doctor.
He's gone through so mucheducation.
So really impressed with howmuch this guy knows, he was able
to diagnose everything that wasgoing on.
He had access to the MRIresults so he knew exactly what
(12:37):
he could do.
And then he knew within a fewvisits that it is not going to
be productive at all to continuethat, because everything he was
doing was just hurting.
So he said we can get past thissix weeks.
But if I write in my notes,here's everything I tried.
CK (12:57):
And it's my medical opinion that this guy does not need does
he need surgery.
Phil (13:00):
Did you even consider cortisone injections again, or
are you like?
No, not wasting my time, yeah,I know where this goes.
In the meantime, I wassearching around for so I got I
got a referral to thisneurosurgeon a couple of towns
away.
I don't even know who he is, um, so I was asking around who is
like, who is the guy who is theback surgeon in this area, and I
was directed to this doctorthat I ended up with, who is the
(13:22):
head of neurology and theentire hospital system around
here.
He's who even some familymembers have said.
I've gone to him and he's great.
So I called his office and hesaid, just like his office said,
I can see you in about six oreight weeks.
And I started calling theiroffice every morning 9.30 and
being very nice and just saying,look, I'm in terrible pain.
(13:44):
I know how this goes.
I'm on a.
You can put me on acancellation list.
I'm 15 minutes away.
And it took about four of thosephone calls before this lady
said, okay, we'll see youtomorrow.
CK (13:55):
So what made you at that point?
What made you say I'm going togo to a neuro over an ortho
Because you've had a surgery byeach?
At this point, I did.
Phil (14:03):
It was just the fact that this guy is the head of
neurology for the entire, forthe hospital system, and his the
number of recommendations I gotfrom people for different types
of surgeries that all said.
Even the nurse said, oh yeah,dr Phillips, that's the guy.
So you want to.
If you can get hooked up withthem, you very luck.
CK (14:18):
So that's a better way to choose a doctor than than how I
chose my doctor.
I went with who can see mefirst Great.
Phil (14:33):
Yeah, yeah, see, I got.
I got so little faith.
I was so happy that the thewhen the nurse practitioner got
me that that next dayappointment.
It was great to get in withthat guy.
But I could tell by the way, hewas just sloughing me off to
say I'm going to schedule forthis and I'll see you in six
weeks.
I'm like you're not taking meseriously at all.
I'm telling you, this is likenumber three for me.
I know how this goes.
Even if you've done it athousand times, I've done it
three times to myself Just getme scheduled for this stuff.
(14:54):
I knew I don't want this guyoperating on me.
I know, I can tell.
CK (14:59):
And I've encouraged people previous times in the forum or
on TikTok If you don't vibe withthe doctor that you've seen,
get another consult.
I mean, obviously you have torisk the waiting couple of weeks
, obviously you have to risk thewaiting couple of weeks, but
you really need to becomfortable with who's opening
you up.
Phil (15:15):
You should right.
You're going to live with thisfor the rest of your life, so,
yeah, find the best.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
CK (15:22):
So at this point, was this a third or a microdissectomy, or
sorry?
Phil (15:27):
Third.
So that was last February.
I saw I was very happy when Ifinally got my first consult
with this head of neurology.
He saw me on the day afterThanksgiving and he said I am
going to, I'm sorry, take thisback.
This was I'm thinking of thefourth surgery, the third
surgery at L4-5 with this guy.
He saw me on with my the firstconsult on a Tuesday.
(15:50):
Said what do you want to do?
He said I read Tuesday.
Said what do you want to do?
He said I read all your stuff.
What do you want to do?
Do you want to do try moreconservative stuff or do you
want surgery?
And I said I want surgery.
He goes OK, I'll see you Friday, three days because I'm going
on vacation.
So if you want surgery, we'regoing to do this on Friday.
Let's go in the hospital or ina surgery center.
CK (16:09):
I was in a hospital.
Phil (16:09):
Okay.
CK (16:10):
Did you have to stay the night or were you able to go
home on all of them?
Phil (16:12):
Microdyskectomies nowadays , that's just.
It was outpatient, I think.
I was in at like eight o'clockin the morning.
I was home by one.
Those are pretty amazing.
The first two back in the day.
I was in the hospital for acouple of days for two or three
nights for a microdyskectomy.
Seems kind of silly, butnowadays it's pretty quick.
CK (16:29):
I got stuck in the hospital for three nights.
After mine, mine was, yeah, in2019, but I had my Dora tour
because my hernia it just wasactually glued to the spinal
cord.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there was a tear and theyhad to put a patch on, so I
wasn't allowed to walk, sit upor anything.
I had to lay flat on my backfor three nights.
Phil (16:49):
Oh no.
So if yours was adhered to thenerve root, you must have
lasting nerve damage.
CK (16:55):
So, yeah, there's still a chunk that's stuck to the uh, to
the nerve and, uh, they did thelaminectomy as well to give it
my nerve freedom of movementRight.
So my my numbness never wentaway, but I only noticed that
when I'm shaving my legs.
Phil (17:14):
I'm used to it at this point the whole right side of my
leg down my ankle.
I don't feel that at all.
It doesn't affect the movementof the leg, it's just.
It's kind of weird, yeah yeah,and I get flares.
CK (17:23):
But I think everyone from now after any surgery will
always get flares, right butotherwise, but otherwise, I'm
great.
Most of the 95% of the time I'm, I'm pain-free.
Awesome, awesome, yeah, yeah,at three surgeries.
What is going through your mindat that point?
How did you deal with thatemotionally?
Phil (17:41):
Uh, so that one wasn't too bad.
This was the number three.
It wasn't too bad because Isort of I knew how it went.
I knew as soon as you getsurgery that pain is gone, you
have a little bit of recoveryand then you're what I had
experienced before I had.
Once you get through thatrecovery, then you're good to go
for for a while.
A little scarier, being thethird, knowing that all right.
(18:01):
So this is probably my lastmicro discectomy, because after
this options start to becomefusions and other more more
invasive type stuff.
So I kind of knew that washappening and over the years I
had been talking to people andI've heard a lot of people say
if you've had more than one ofmicrodiscectomy, you're going to
have a fusion at some point.
It's just a matter of time.
(18:22):
You just want to put that offas long as you can.
CK (18:25):
And with that third MRI were they saying hey, the disc
height here is getting risky oryou have degener.
Phil (18:30):
Third one was okay.
The third one that was enoughleft in this.
This guy said.
The surgeon said um, you knowwe have the choice of
microcystic acne or fusion.
I don't see you as a fusioncandidate yet because you have
enough.
It has not started to compressthe height as much as you would
think it would in other people.
And he said if you have healthydisc tissue in there, leave it.
(18:50):
If you want to maintain yourability to move around and do
your sports, you want to leavethat, that disc, in there for as
long as possible.
For me it lasted six months.
CK (19:00):
Oh no, did a second injury happen, or was it just woke up
and you had pain again.
Phil (19:05):
Woke up and had pain again .
I was biking, running, doingall sorts of stuff, Everything
felt great and I felt thattelltale tingling and then pain
right in the glute down the leg.
That advanced pretty quickly.
CK (19:19):
Did you go back to the same neurosurgeon then, or did you?
Phil (19:21):
have to go through.
CK (19:22):
Okay, all right, yep.
Phil (19:28):
So what happened then?
Then quick MRI Same deal withlook he's you just schedule me
for an MRI.
That MRI is like a month out.
So I'm calling the diagnosticcenter saying I'll take an
earlier appointment because,telling you, I know what I'm
going to, I know what you'regoing to see, right, so let's
just get this done.
Yeah, so that one ended upbeing a longer delay because I
didn't get the MRI until.
(19:50):
So that showed up beginning ofOctober.
I didn't get the MRI until theend of November.
And then when I saw him he said, all right, you're looking for
a fusion, so we need to get thisdone.
We need to get this done prettyquickly.
I said we're going to put thisout to the insurance and we
expect to get this done within aweek or two.
Unfortunately, I found out I gota call it took two weeks for
(20:12):
the insurance topre-authorization, which is the
longest I've ever heard.
I was calling insurance everyday.
What's taking so long?
And they finally authorized it.
And then I got that call.
I was waiting by the phone,like I got that call from my
neurosurgeon.
Here's my date.
It was January 22nd.
I'm like that's seven weeks.
You're going to make me waitseven weeks.
CK (20:31):
Right After he just said we got to get this done pretty
quickly right he did.
Phil (20:35):
I was told that the people who do the drugs
anesthesiologists they all taketheir vacations at the same time
and it's at the end of the yearthe last two weeks of the year
there's no surgery.
So that screws up everyoneelse's booking and the fact that
this surgery was being done inthe main OR not at a surgery
(20:57):
center that's just naturallybooked up like everything else
is booked up.
So that was a seven week to getthat surgery.
CK (21:04):
That's a shame, because the end of the year is when
everybody has met theirdeductible and wants to get
their surgeries done before thenew year starts.
Phil (21:11):
Exactly Terrible it was, it was.
CK (21:16):
What was it about your MRI?
That the doctor was saying weshould get this done as soon as
possible?
Phil (21:23):
the fact that I had started to see narrowing of the
space quite a bit.
And he said and when he, whenhe first saw me, he said all
right, so we can talk aboutanother micro discectomy or we
can talk about a fusion.
And I said, wait a minute, thisis my.
He said this is your secondright?
I'm like this is my third.
On that he goes oh, third, oh,fusion, yeah for sure, we don't.
We don't recommend that much.
If you already had the firstsurgery took out a third of the
(21:46):
disc, the second surgery tookout another third of the disc.
So now we're looking at lessthan half and the MRI results
was showing an error on that.
So it's just going to get worse.
CK (21:56):
Did you have to think about it at all, or were you like this
is my lot in life?
Phil (22:00):
So how soon can you do it?
How?
Soon can you do it.
Do it tomorrow, I'm ready.
CK (22:05):
Get me out of this pain.
Phil (22:06):
Oh, this nasty pain.
This last one was bad onmultiple levels.
I mean just shooting pain.
I was reading and writing onsome of these Reddit threads of
people doing it, and on one ofthem I was explaining how you
could look in my face.
If you're a normal person, youcould look at my face right now,
(22:31):
when I'm in the middle of this,and you wouldn't know that I'm
in any pain.
But if you felt I'm feelingright now, you'd be on the floor
because I have no choice but tojust put up with it, just to
learn to walk around and dealwith it, cause it's going to
hurt all the time.
Medications don't do anything,it's just nerve pain is is
different.
It's just nasty, it's nasty.
CK (22:46):
Yeah, and people do not understand it until they-.
Phil (22:51):
No, oh man.
CK (22:53):
Now, did your surgeon talk about disc replacement at all,
or was it straight fusion?
Phil (22:59):
This was straight fusion and it was only the P-LIF, which
I understood was sort of hisspecialty.
He'd been doing that surgeryand had to refine that over
decades, and that was what hewas going to do.
For me, it's based on where thewhere he was going to gain
access from the back, so thatmust've been where the the disc
was broken out and ruptured.
CK (23:19):
Okay, yeah, so they didn't have to go through your abdomen.
Phil (23:22):
No, thankfully I've heard those recoveries a little bit
difficult, a little bitdifficult, a little bit more
difficult.
CK (23:25):
They are a little, yeah, they're a little harder.
Okay, so that was January.
Then you went in for the fusion.
Okay, and how long was thehospital stay after a fusion?
Phil (23:35):
That was two nights.
So that was Wednesday.
No, that was.
I went on on Friday morning andcame home on Sunday.
Oh, take that back.
I went on on Wednesday.
I was home Friday morning, okay, doctor told me three nights
and I was only there for two.
I felt great.
I felt, um, I had, uh, an issuewith the catheter and I had an
(23:57):
issue with the drain.
I had this big giant disc drainthing that was hooked up to me.
Every time I got out of bed Ihad to stuff it in my little, uh
johnny, and like walk around.
But I was walking circlesaround the that floor that night
because I knew how important itis to move.
And then, um, because I wasable to to get through all my
(24:17):
urinary stuff, that in thatfirst day, um, it's like I'd
rather go home.
CK (24:21):
And she's there, go home what are the uh post fusion
restrictions like compared to amicro dissection?
Phil (24:29):
Quite a bit more.
The no bending, no lifting, notwisting, that is 100%.
You cannot do that at all.
Number one, but big one for me,is I had to quit smoking.
CK (24:40):
Yep, it slows your healing process down.
Phil (24:43):
Smoked a pack a day for 40 years, so I made that decision
on the morning of Dr AnnekeVandenbroek.
Oh gosh, cold turkey.
CK (24:50):
Dr Justin.
Phil (24:50):
Marchegiani Cold turkey.
Yeah, I did.
I figured it would actuallyhelp me because I knew the
experience of the first two orthree days after surgery.
I'm going to be medicated, I'mgoing to be in a different
environment in a hospital.
I'm going to get through thosefirst two or three days of
whatever withdrawals off ofnicotine pretty easily, and it's
(25:11):
it's.
It's nearly not been that bigof a deal.
It's the difference, it's thechoice of do I want to maintain
an active lifestyle or do I wantto smoke?
So I want to maintain thatactive lifestyle, so I quit.
CK (25:23):
That's great.
It definitely seems like youare the perfect mindset kind of
person to go through all this.
Unfortunately, yeah.
Realistic and and and notafraid.
Phil (25:34):
I get that people are nervous about medicine, nervous
about surgery.
I'm not, because I've just I'vehad my fourth, so I've been
through it before.
I've also just had a lot ofsurgeries.
I get I tear stuff all the time.
I've had plastic surgeries andthree knee surgeries and just it
seems like I'm getting somesort of medical care all the
time.
When, when I leave the house inmy truck, siri and the little
(25:58):
heads up display will will showyou.
You know where do you thinkyou're going.
And I took a picture of it afew months ago, last summer, and
it was the physical therapycenter.
No, it was urgent care.
It was urgent care.
Thanks, mr.
Thanks, phil's going to urgentcare.
Yeah, that's hilarious.
CK (26:15):
So where are you right now as far as doing normal
activities?
You said the fusion was Januaryand right now we are in March.
We're March 17th.
Phil (26:24):
So I was supposed to have my six week follow up with the
neurosurgeon on March 17th.
So I was supposed to have mysix week follow-up with the
neurosurgeon on March 11th.
I got a call the day beforesaying that he's out on leave.
So he pushed that back untilthe beginning of April, which is
a bummer because that's when Ifigured I would have a lot of my
restrictions lifted.
I insisted on that phone callthat they find out if I can
start doing a little bit moretypes of exercise and not just
(26:45):
walk all the time because thatwas boring.
Can start doing a little bitmore types of exercise and not
just walk all the time becausethat was boring.
And they said I was askingspecifically when can I get back
on my bike?
They got the okay because ofhow I'd been doing.
They said start doing yourbiking sort of in moderation.
And then that was really theonly thing that was lifted.
The bending, lifting andtwisting is still in place and
(27:08):
that's still working entirelyfrom home.
CK (27:09):
And will you go to physical therapy?
Phil (27:11):
Yes, I started that, so that's another tip for people
going through this.
When I went to see theneurosurgeon's nurse
practitioner at the two-weekfollow-up that's where they just
do an incision check.
It's not really a realfollow-up, it's just like a
basic first follow-up she said Iasked when I would be able to
start physical therapy because Ihad such a great experience
(27:33):
with physical therapy followingthe last surgery that the
physical therapist put methrough the ringer in such a
great way.
He said by the time I was donewith that, I was doing core
exercises that were really onlyfor people, for highly trained
athletes, and I'm like I'm notthat, I'm just really motivated
to get back to my lifestyle.
But this guy was so good Icouldn't wait to get back to
(27:54):
work with him because I knew howquickly he'd get me back in
good shape.
When I went to see this nursepractitioner, she said you're
going to probably start thatphysical therapy around the time
you see the doctor, which is atsix weeks.
And I said, great, be aroundthe time you see the doctor
which is at six weeks.
And I said, great, I would likeyou to put the order in now so
that I can schedule it now andnot wait until March 11th where
he says, okay, you're free to gonow, go schedule it.
(28:15):
It's a month out, I'm not goingto do that.
So I had my my.
My neurosurgeon's visit wassupposed to be March 11th.
I had my PT visit on March 12thand I was able to keep that.
So I started PT last week.
CK (28:28):
Yeah, and are you still in pain or are you pain-free now?
Phil (28:31):
Pain-free.
I don't feel a thing.
If I didn't have this bending,lifting, twisting restriction, I
would not know that I hadsurgery.
CK (28:38):
Wow, that's amazing.
So you, if someone said, ohgosh, I have to get fusion, you
would say don't worry about it.
Phil (28:51):
Don't worry about it.
It's all about several thingsin my opinion and experience.
Dan (28:53):
How good condition are you in before surgery?
That's?
Phil (28:54):
true, you need to be strong in the core.
Do as much exercise.
The better shape you're inbefore surgery, the better shape
you're going to be aftersurgery.
Number one number two not allsurgeons are the same, so get a
good one and I know I got a goodone because everything right
down to the incision itself islike you can barely even see it.
It's amazing.
I've seen pictures of otherpeople's jagged nasty.
(29:15):
That is a surgeon doesn't knowwhat he's doing.
Get the right surgeon.
And number two lean heavilyinto physical therapy.
The harder you work after yoursurgery, the better, and the
faster your recovery is going tobe in my.
CK (29:27):
In my experience, Unfortunately, not every doctor
recommends physical therapy.
There's, there's an idea that,yeah, my physical therapist was
a was a savior as far asemotional, like just being able
to move again.
I had to get past fear for that.
So, not going to a physicaltherapist?
(29:48):
I don't get it.
Phil (29:49):
I don't understand that whatsoever.
That's just it was.
I had PT after every one of mysurgeries back into the nineties
, so who wouldn't do it?
CK (29:57):
Well, Phil, if you had any last words of encouragement or
wisdom that you would want toshare with people in your
situation, what would you haveto say?
Phil (30:13):
Don't wait.
I've read a lot of stories ofpeople who said I've been
dealing with this for six months, for years, for 10 years.
I'm like man, I've dealt withthis for quite a bit before, but
I never waited to take actionon it.
So I get people's hesitance todo it, but my experience, and
then the experiences I've readfrom uh, from other people and
from other patients, has beenvery positive.
If, uh, if you get the rightperson.
(30:34):
So I'd say don't wait, becausepeople end up with nerve damage
and numbness and the inabilityto use certain extremities.
If you, if you wait, so it'sit's.
I don't believe herniationsever get better on their own.
It's not the type of tissuethat heals itself Right.
So, um, don't wait, yeah that'sgreat.
CK (30:53):
Did you with the fusion?
Um, did you have any likepost-surgical inflammation, rear
its head two weeks later, oranything like that?
Never, never, okay.
What about with the othersurgeries?
Phil (31:06):
No, no, I never had any.
The only issue I ever had was alittle bit of inflammation
after my second or the firstmicrodiscectomy in 1996, where
the nurse who took my stitchesout missed one.
A couple weeks later somethingwas like that little
inflammation was developingOutside of that.
No, the incisions.
The incisions look great.
CK (31:28):
That's awesome, phil.
I really appreciate youreaching out and being willing
to share your story on Bed Backand Beyond.
It means a whole lot.
Phil (31:37):
I'm happy to be here.
I hope my experience can helpsomeone else.
I know it's an unfortunate clubthat we're in, so the more
people can learn and be ready toadvocate for themselves and get
themselves better.
I wish everyone the best ofluck.
CK (31:51):
Are you also on the Spinal Fusion Reddit community or just?
Phil (31:54):
I am, yeah, okay, great, I've contributed quite a bit to
that.
CK (31:58):
Awesome.
If you are a listener and youhave a positive story of
recovery from a serious back orneck injury, head over to
bedbackbeyondcom and click shareyour story.
I would love to include yourvoice on the show.
Once again, Phil, thank you somuch.
Phil (32:14):
Thank you, I'm glad to be here.
I was biking, running, doing all sorts of stuff.
Everything felt great and Ifelt that telltale tingling and
then pain right in the glutedown the leg.
That advanced pretty quickly.
Dan (00:12):
Welcome to Bed Back and Beyond, sharing positive stories
of recovery from serious backor neck injury.
Your host is CK, a fellowchampion who draws on her own
experience with herniated discsurgery.
Join her as she talks withothers who have overcome the
physical and emotional trauma ofa painful injury and discover
(00:34):
for yourself how you can findhope and encouragement in
recovery.
CK (00:40):
Hi Phil, Thank you so much for joining me on this episode
of Bed, Back and Beyond.
Before we talk about all yourinjury stories, how about you
tell us a little bit aboutyourself?
Phil (00:50):
Certainly Thanks for having me on.
My name is Phil.
I live in a little town on thesoutheast coast of Massachusetts
.
I am 55 years old, remarriedtwo kids and working primarily
from home in the IT industry.
CK (01:05):
Do you have the ocean nearby , then I do, right down the
street.
Oh nice, Does it ever get warmup there, the water?
Phil (01:13):
It does.
It takes a while, it takesuntil about July, and then July
through October.
It's beautiful outside of that.
You don't want to be swimmingaround here.
CK (01:22):
I'm like two hour hour and a half from the Jersey shore, so,
yeah, it gets warm around July,but then that's when all the
jellyfish show up and I don'twant to go in.
Phil (01:31):
There are a lot of jellyfish here too as well.
CK (01:35):
And are you from there or did you move there?
Phil (01:37):
Moved here about 20, 25 years ago, actually grew up in
the mountains of Colorado andthen spent 10 or 15 years in
Southern California and thenmoved here to start a family and
have kids.
CK (01:49):
Nice, nice.
Now, from what you sent me, itsounded like way back when, 30
some years ago, you were a veryactive guy.
What kind of things were youinto before your injury?
Phil (02:01):
I played tennis almost every day, golf, a little bit of
running, hiking.
Yeah, I was a don't sit.
Still got to be outside, wantto be doing something fun and
athletic all the time.
So I was in excellent shape.
There was no reason whatsoeverfor me to have a back injury,
but I did.
CK (02:18):
So you didn't have any kind of like back pain that was
always hanging around before it.
You just got suddenly hit withan injury.
Phil (02:25):
Suddenly hit with an injury when I was 22, active all
the time.
That turned out to be a bulgeddisc at L5-S1 that required
laminectomy surgery.
CK (02:38):
And did the injury?
Do you remember?
Were you playing a sport or didyou just wake up one morning
and suddenly you had terriblepain?
Phil (02:45):
It just.
It was that one didn't come onright away, that one came on
kind of slowly, but but it wasevident that something was wrong
.
So I went to see a neurosurgeonright away, got an MRI and, yep
, you have an injury, not fromany trauma at all, Just out of
nowhere.
And that's that.
That bared more and more truedown the line when I got more
herniations, also from no trauma, that told finally got my
(03:09):
degenerative disc diseasediagnosis and how did?
CK (03:12):
at 22, it sounds like it was pretty easy for to get the
doctor to listen to you.
I've seen on the redditcommunity a lot of the younger
guys and girls are saying I keep, keep getting waved off.
You didn't experience that.
Phil (03:24):
I didn't.
Thankfully, I had my companythat I worked for had really
good health insurance.
It was an EPO plan executivepreferred provider, so I didn't
have to go through any referrals.
I just asked around who was agood neurosurgeon in LA and got
this guy.
He sent me for an MRI rightaway at the time and I think
even still the insurance companystill required me to go through
(03:47):
conservative measures.
So it was six weeks of physicaltherapy, multiple rounds of
injections those didn't doanything and then right into
surgery.
Okay.
CK (03:58):
I only had one injection, and it lasted for about two
weeks, and then the pain cameright back.
Phil (04:02):
Yeah, back in the so back in those days.
So I went through the surgeryat L5S1 in 92, four years later
I had another bulge disc at L4-5and the insurance required me,
before both of those surgeries,to go through rounds of three
injections once a week for threeweeks.
So those were just straightcortisone and they were done in
an outpatient, so it was just alittle local numbing and they
(04:26):
stabbed me right there in theoffice.
Those did nothing.
In fact, the second round thatI got, before the four or five
surgery, he added lidocaine toit, which was like cheating.
That was like great.
Of course I felt great becauseyou stuck me with lidocaine.
Why would you do that?
Yeah, of course, the next.
That will last for like sixhours and then I'm back in the
(04:49):
pain again.
CK (04:50):
So yeah, yeah.
What kind of symptoms were youhaving at 22 that made the
doctor say let's get you an MRI?
Phil (04:58):
Pain right in the middle of the buttock.
It's that one spot thateveryone knows about.
And then it starts to radiatedown the outside at the at the,
the L5 S1, it was down the leftleg on the outside to the ankle
around the calf and into theankle, and then on the 451, four
years later that was down theright side and it was the exact
same thing.
It starts right in the glutethat one spot that everyone
knows and then starts to go downthe outside of the right leg
(05:20):
and then outside of the thighright leg and then outside of
the thigh.
Now you said he did your firstsurgery was just the laminectomy
it was.
So I had two differentexperiences, because the first
surgery was a neurosurgeon, whoare known for kind of doing more
fine surgical work.
Orthopedic surgeons are moreknown for being like carpenters
(05:41):
they do more.
They just like do more.
The neurosurgeon did just thelaminectomy, which is just
creating some space, and youleave the disc alone.
So you basically left the discherniated.
It's still there.
In fact, it's herniated eventoday.
And then, four years later, theorthopedic surgeon did a
microdiscectomy where he tookout almost a third of it.
That's the one that lasted along time.
CK (06:03):
We took out almost a third of it.
That's the one that lasted along time.
So when you had the laminectomythe first time did you wake up?
Phil (06:12):
pain-free or did you still have remaining symptoms?
No, I did so.
I've had four surgeries, eachone of them.
I wake up that nerve pain iscompletely gone.
I remember the recovery ofthose first two surgeries in
1992 and 1996 being very easy.
It was the incision pain isabsolutely nothing compared to
the nerve pain before.
So if it was just the incisionpain you'd probably be in a
world of hurt, but it wascomparatively so much less.
(06:35):
It didn't bother me a bit.
The the restrictions of notbeing able to bend, lift or
twist for six or eight weeks.
That becomes annoying andtroublesome when you live alone.
But outside of that the painwas just nothing.
It was like Christmas daygetting the surgery.
CK (06:50):
Right.
So when you had themicrodiscectomy your second
surgery was the microdiscectomyyou said right.
Dan (06:56):
Yes.
CK (06:56):
Did your disc herniate further out?
Phil (06:59):
It did so that the second surgery was at a different level
.
So the first surgery was at L5S1 and then I herniated L4 5.
That one was far worse.
That one came on pretty quicklyand within a few weeks I tried
to get up from my couch in themorning I was down on the floor
of my apartment.
I literally could not get up.
I had to reach from my phone.
My brother came and that washorrific.
(07:21):
That was the instance where theinsurance took three to four
months to just red tape, justbureaucratic stuff.
Setting an appointment to evensee a neurosurgeon was like two
or three weeks out and then itwas another month to get the MRI
and then it was a month tostart boss the other day and I
(07:42):
said I don't know if I herniateda disc again.
CK (07:44):
I don't know if I would go to the emergency room, because I
went and they didn't even do anMRI.
They said go see a painspecialist, so that was a two
week wait and then he orderedthe MRI, so that was another.
So like why did I even go to?
Phil (08:00):
the ER.
That's interesting because whenI went to the first console
with a the nurse, the orthopedicsurgeon in the practice, not
the guy who actually did thesurgery for my for my first
visit there they're the ones whoactually order the MRI, order
PT, they like start the wholeprocess.
He said you're in such badshape right now.
I could admit you if you want,and then you could go through
(08:23):
this process.
Probably it would happen fasterif I, if it was in the hospital
at the time.
You're nuts.
I'm not going to spend the nextmonth in the hospital waiting
for it.
If I'm going to wait, I'm goingto wait at home.
CK (08:34):
Yeah.
Phil (08:34):
Hindsight.
I probably should have donethat, Cause I would have gotten
that MRI a lot faster had I beenhospitalized.
But I just didn't want to dothat sitting in the hospital.
CK (08:44):
How did you deal with the idea at 20 something years old
that you were going to need backsurgery?
Phil (08:49):
It was a no brainer to just get rid of that pain.
That pain was so severe and itwas keeping me from doing the
active lifestyle that was justimperative to me.
I just could not envision alifestyle where I couldn't do
the sports that I want to do.
I do it almost every day.
So if I can't do it, there hasto be something to fix it now,
(09:10):
or I'm not going to just sit andwait.
I'm not going to do that.
CK (09:14):
So after both surgeries did you go back to playing sports?
Phil (09:18):
I did quickly, so both recoveries were very quick.
After that 1996 surgery Irecovered very quickly.
I remember he put me throughlots of home PT and I was asked
to do lots of walking.
At that point I was living inSouthern California so I was
walking on the beach and after acouple of weeks of that I'm
like this just feels like I'mnot doing anything.
And I called him and said can Istart running?
And he said if you can runwithout pain, do whatever you
(09:41):
can do.
And I started running.
That sped up the recoverybecause the more you move like
everyone knows, the more youmove, the better your recovery
goes.
I recovered from that and thatlasted 35 years.
CK (09:52):
So you were golfing, running all that.
Phil (09:55):
Everything, no restrictions, doing all my
sports.
I ran the LA marathon.
I just was active all the time.
I had flare-ups Like I wouldhave.
Every few years we have aflare-up, either a minor one or
a major one, that would requireprednisone or another injection,
but I dealt with those up untillast year.
CK (10:17):
But then something else happened.
Phil (10:19):
Yeah, so feeling great.
I got into road biking.
I was biking 200 to 300 miles aweek and feeling really good.
And then I herniated the L4-5in February of last year.
I'm sorry, would this be thesecond herniation then on the
L4-5 in February of last year?
CK (10:31):
I'm sorry.
Would this be the secondherniation then on the L?
Phil (10:34):
The second herniation at L4-5.
Yeah, 5-1 was herniated firstand it's still there and it's
just.
It's just herniated but notcausing any pain Not causing
pain, it's just there, okay.
So L4-5, I felt that telltaleAgain, no trauma leading up to
it, I didn't have didn't fall,didn't slip, nothing like that
happened.
Just I felt that telltale rightin the glute.
I was telling my wife whenwe're walking every day I'm like
(10:55):
this is not good.
I know what this feels like Ifit starts going down the leg.
I know I'm in real trouble.
So I called, I started thiswhole insurance nightmare again.
So I called my primary caredoctor and he said great, I can
see you, I can get you areferral for an orthopedic
surgeon.
My next appointment is in sixweeks.
CK (11:13):
Your primary care was six weeks, six weeks out.
Phil (11:16):
I'm like that's not going to happen.
So I found an orthopedicsurgeon in my hospital group,
called him directly and said I'mgoing to come see you.
He's fine, you can see me in mynext appointments in eight
weeks.
I'm like this is not going towork.
So I went to urgent care andsaid I need prednisone and she
gave me one.
This nurse practitioner wasfabulous.
I said if you can hook me upwith an orthopedic surgeon visit
(11:38):
, that would be even better.
And she said be right back.
She came back in the room andsaid do you have an appointment
tomorrow?
CK (11:44):
Great.
Phil (11:45):
Yes, all I need.
I don't know this guy at all,but if he can get me hooked up
with an MRI which he did.
I saw him the next morning andhe was like you just went to
urgent care yesterday and you'reseeing a neurosurgeon.
CK (12:00):
So he said that just doesn't happen.
Phil (12:01):
I know the system, I know how it works.
He said he just did what theyall do, which is, I mean,
schedule you for MRI.
You're going to start six weeksof physical therapy and then
come back and come back and seeme.
CK (12:12):
Any improvement with the physical therapy.
Phil (12:15):
No, I got hooked up with the most phenomenal physical
therapist ever.
This guy is super, superknowledgeable.
He has you told me he was.
He has enough education to be ageneral practitioner as to be
like a family doctor.
He's gone through so mucheducation.
So really impressed with howmuch this guy knows, he was able
to diagnose everything that wasgoing on.
He had access to the MRIresults so he knew exactly what
(12:37):
he could do.
And then he knew within a fewvisits that it is not going to
be productive at all to continuethat, because everything he was
doing was just hurting.
So he said we can get past thissix weeks.
But if I write in my notes,here's everything I tried.
CK (12:57):
And it's my medical opinion that this guy does not need does
he need surgery.
Phil (13:00):
Did you even consider cortisone injections again, or
are you like?
No, not wasting my time, yeah,I know where this goes.
In the meantime, I wassearching around for so I got I
got a referral to thisneurosurgeon a couple of towns
away.
I don't even know who he is, um, so I was asking around who is
like, who is the guy who is theback surgeon in this area, and I
was directed to this doctorthat I ended up with, who is the
(13:22):
head of neurology and theentire hospital system around
here.
He's who even some familymembers have said.
I've gone to him and he's great.
So I called his office and hesaid, just like his office said,
I can see you in about six oreight weeks.
And I started calling theiroffice every morning 9.30 and
being very nice and just saying,look, I'm in terrible pain.
(13:44):
I know how this goes.
I'm on a.
You can put me on acancellation list.
I'm 15 minutes away.
And it took about four of thosephone calls before this lady
said, okay, we'll see youtomorrow.
CK (13:55):
So what made you at that point?
What made you say I'm going togo to a neuro over an ortho
Because you've had a surgery byeach?
At this point, I did.
Phil (14:03):
It was just the fact that this guy is the head of
neurology for the entire, forthe hospital system, and his the
number of recommendations I gotfrom people for different types
of surgeries that all said.
Even the nurse said, oh yeah,dr Phillips, that's the guy.
So you want to.
If you can get hooked up withthem, you very luck.
CK (14:18):
So that's a better way to choose a doctor than than how I
chose my doctor.
I went with who can see mefirst Great.
Phil (14:33):
Yeah, yeah, see, I got.
I got so little faith.
I was so happy that the thewhen the nurse practitioner got
me that that next dayappointment.
It was great to get in withthat guy.
But I could tell by the way, hewas just sloughing me off to
say I'm going to schedule forthis and I'll see you in six
weeks.
I'm like you're not taking meseriously at all.
I'm telling you, this is likenumber three for me.
I know how this goes.
Even if you've done it athousand times, I've done it
three times to myself Just getme scheduled for this stuff.
(14:54):
I knew I don't want this guyoperating on me.
I know, I can tell.
CK (14:59):
And I've encouraged people previous times in the forum or
on TikTok If you don't vibe withthe doctor that you've seen,
get another consult.
I mean, obviously you have torisk the waiting couple of weeks
, obviously you have to risk thewaiting couple of weeks, but
you really need to becomfortable with who's opening
you up.
Phil (15:15):
You should right.
You're going to live with thisfor the rest of your life, so,
yeah, find the best.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
CK (15:22):
So at this point, was this a third or a microdissectomy, or
sorry?
Phil (15:27):
Third.
So that was last February.
I saw I was very happy when Ifinally got my first consult
with this head of neurology.
He saw me on the day afterThanksgiving and he said I am
going to, I'm sorry, take thisback.
This was I'm thinking of thefourth surgery, the third
surgery at L4-5 with this guy.
He saw me on with my the firstconsult on a Tuesday.
(15:50):
Said what do you want to do?
He said I read Tuesday.
Said what do you want to do?
He said I read all your stuff.
What do you want to do?
Do you want to do try moreconservative stuff or do you
want surgery?
And I said I want surgery.
He goes OK, I'll see you Friday, three days because I'm going
on vacation.
So if you want surgery, we'regoing to do this on Friday.
Let's go in the hospital or ina surgery center.
CK (16:09):
I was in a hospital.
Phil (16:09):
Okay.
CK (16:10):
Did you have to stay the night or were you able to go
home on all of them?
Phil (16:12):
Microdyskectomies nowadays , that's just.
It was outpatient, I think.
I was in at like eight o'clockin the morning.
I was home by one.
Those are pretty amazing.
The first two back in the day.
I was in the hospital for acouple of days for two or three
nights for a microdyskectomy.
Seems kind of silly, butnowadays it's pretty quick.
CK (16:29):
I got stuck in the hospital for three nights.
After mine, mine was, yeah, in2019, but I had my Dora tour
because my hernia it just wasactually glued to the spinal
cord.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there was a tear and theyhad to put a patch on, so I
wasn't allowed to walk, sit upor anything.
I had to lay flat on my backfor three nights.
Phil (16:49):
Oh no.
So if yours was adhered to thenerve root, you must have
lasting nerve damage.
CK (16:55):
So, yeah, there's still a chunk that's stuck to the uh, to
the nerve and, uh, they did thelaminectomy as well to give it
my nerve freedom of movementRight.
So my my numbness never wentaway, but I only noticed that
when I'm shaving my legs.
Phil (17:14):
I'm used to it at this point the whole right side of my
leg down my ankle.
I don't feel that at all.
It doesn't affect the movementof the leg, it's just.
It's kind of weird, yeah yeah,and I get flares.
CK (17:23):
But I think everyone from now after any surgery will
always get flares, right butotherwise, but otherwise, I'm
great.
Most of the 95% of the time I'm, I'm pain-free.
Awesome, awesome, yeah, yeah,at three surgeries.
What is going through your mindat that point?
How did you deal with thatemotionally?
Phil (17:41):
Uh, so that one wasn't too bad.
This was the number three.
It wasn't too bad because Isort of I knew how it went.
I knew as soon as you getsurgery that pain is gone, you
have a little bit of recoveryand then you're what I had
experienced before I had.
Once you get through thatrecovery, then you're good to go
for for a while.
A little scarier, being thethird, knowing that all right.
(18:01):
So this is probably my lastmicro discectomy, because after
this options start to becomefusions and other more more
invasive type stuff.
So I kind of knew that washappening and over the years I
had been talking to people andI've heard a lot of people say
if you've had more than one ofmicrodiscectomy, you're going to
have a fusion at some point.
It's just a matter of time.
(18:22):
You just want to put that offas long as you can.
CK (18:25):
And with that third MRI were they saying hey, the disc
height here is getting risky oryou have degener.
Phil (18:30):
Third one was okay.
The third one that was enoughleft in this.
This guy said.
The surgeon said um, you knowwe have the choice of
microcystic acne or fusion.
I don't see you as a fusioncandidate yet because you have
enough.
It has not started to compressthe height as much as you would
think it would in other people.
And he said if you have healthydisc tissue in there, leave it.
(18:50):
If you want to maintain yourability to move around and do
your sports, you want to leavethat, that disc, in there for as
long as possible.
For me it lasted six months.
CK (19:00):
Oh no, did a second injury happen, or was it just woke up
and you had pain again.
Phil (19:05):
Woke up and had pain again .
I was biking, running, doingall sorts of stuff, Everything
felt great and I felt thattelltale tingling and then pain
right in the glute down the leg.
That advanced pretty quickly.
CK (19:19):
Did you go back to the same neurosurgeon then, or did you?
Phil (19:21):
have to go through.
CK (19:22):
Okay, all right, yep.
Phil (19:28):
So what happened then?
Then quick MRI Same deal withlook he's you just schedule me
for an MRI.
That MRI is like a month out.
So I'm calling the diagnosticcenter saying I'll take an
earlier appointment because,telling you, I know what I'm
going to, I know what you'regoing to see, right, so let's
just get this done.
Yeah, so that one ended upbeing a longer delay because I
didn't get the MRI until.
(19:50):
So that showed up beginning ofOctober.
I didn't get the MRI until theend of November.
And then when I saw him he said, all right, you're looking for
a fusion, so we need to get thisdone.
We need to get this done prettyquickly.
I said we're going to put thisout to the insurance and we
expect to get this done within aweek or two.
Unfortunately, I found out I gota call it took two weeks for
(20:12):
the insurance topre-authorization, which is the
longest I've ever heard.
I was calling insurance everyday.
What's taking so long?
And they finally authorized it.
And then I got that call.
I was waiting by the phone,like I got that call from my
neurosurgeon.
Here's my date.
It was January 22nd.
I'm like that's seven weeks.
You're going to make me waitseven weeks.
CK (20:31):
Right After he just said we got to get this done pretty
quickly right he did.
Phil (20:35):
I was told that the people who do the drugs
anesthesiologists they all taketheir vacations at the same time
and it's at the end of the yearthe last two weeks of the year
there's no surgery.
So that screws up everyoneelse's booking and the fact that
this surgery was being done inthe main OR not at a surgery
(20:57):
center that's just naturallybooked up like everything else
is booked up.
So that was a seven week to getthat surgery.
CK (21:04):
That's a shame, because the end of the year is when
everybody has met theirdeductible and wants to get
their surgeries done before thenew year starts.
Phil (21:11):
Exactly Terrible it was, it was.
CK (21:16):
What was it about your MRI?
That the doctor was saying weshould get this done as soon as
possible?
Phil (21:23):
the fact that I had started to see narrowing of the
space quite a bit.
And he said and when he, whenhe first saw me, he said all
right, so we can talk aboutanother micro discectomy or we
can talk about a fusion.
And I said, wait a minute, thisis my.
He said this is your secondright?
I'm like this is my third.
On that he goes oh, third, oh,fusion, yeah for sure, we don't.
We don't recommend that much.
If you already had the firstsurgery took out a third of the
(21:46):
disc, the second surgery tookout another third of the disc.
So now we're looking at lessthan half and the MRI results
was showing an error on that.
So it's just going to get worse.
CK (21:56):
Did you have to think about it at all, or were you like this
is my lot in life?
Phil (22:00):
So how soon can you do it?
How?
Soon can you do it.
Do it tomorrow, I'm ready.
CK (22:05):
Get me out of this pain.
Phil (22:06):
Oh, this nasty pain.
This last one was bad onmultiple levels.
I mean just shooting pain.
I was reading and writing onsome of these Reddit threads of
people doing it, and on one ofthem I was explaining how you
could look in my face.
If you're a normal person, youcould look at my face right now,
(22:31):
when I'm in the middle of this,and you wouldn't know that I'm
in any pain.
But if you felt I'm feelingright now, you'd be on the floor
because I have no choice but tojust put up with it, just to
learn to walk around and dealwith it, cause it's going to
hurt all the time.
Medications don't do anything,it's just nerve pain is is
different.
It's just nasty, it's nasty.
CK (22:46):
Yeah, and people do not understand it until they-.
Phil (22:51):
No, oh man.
CK (22:53):
Now, did your surgeon talk about disc replacement at all,
or was it straight fusion?
Phil (22:59):
This was straight fusion and it was only the P-LIF, which
I understood was sort of hisspecialty.
He'd been doing that surgeryand had to refine that over
decades, and that was what hewas going to do.
For me, it's based on where thewhere he was going to gain
access from the back, so thatmust've been where the the disc
was broken out and ruptured.
CK (23:19):
Okay, yeah, so they didn't have to go through your abdomen.
Phil (23:22):
No, thankfully I've heard those recoveries a little bit
difficult, a little bitdifficult, a little bit more
difficult.
CK (23:25):
They are a little, yeah, they're a little harder.
Okay, so that was January.
Then you went in for the fusion.
Okay, and how long was thehospital stay after a fusion?
Phil (23:35):
That was two nights.
So that was Wednesday.
No, that was.
I went on on Friday morning andcame home on Sunday.
Oh, take that back.
I went on on Wednesday.
I was home Friday morning, okay, doctor told me three nights
and I was only there for two.
I felt great.
I felt, um, I had, uh, an issuewith the catheter and I had an
(23:57):
issue with the drain.
I had this big giant disc drainthing that was hooked up to me.
Every time I got out of bed Ihad to stuff it in my little, uh
johnny, and like walk around.
But I was walking circlesaround the that floor that night
because I knew how important itis to move.
And then, um, because I wasable to to get through all my
(24:17):
urinary stuff, that in thatfirst day, um, it's like I'd
rather go home.
CK (24:21):
And she's there, go home what are the uh post fusion
restrictions like compared to amicro dissection?
Phil (24:29):
Quite a bit more.
The no bending, no lifting, notwisting, that is 100%.
You cannot do that at all.
Number one, but big one for me,is I had to quit smoking.
CK (24:40):
Yep, it slows your healing process down.
Phil (24:43):
Smoked a pack a day for 40 years, so I made that decision
on the morning of Dr AnnekeVandenbroek.
Oh gosh, cold turkey.
CK (24:50):
Dr Justin.
Phil (24:50):
Marchegiani Cold turkey.
Yeah, I did.
I figured it would actuallyhelp me because I knew the
experience of the first two orthree days after surgery.
I'm going to be medicated, I'mgoing to be in a different
environment in a hospital.
I'm going to get through thosefirst two or three days of
whatever withdrawals off ofnicotine pretty easily, and it's
(25:11):
it's.
It's nearly not been that bigof a deal.
It's the difference, it's thechoice of do I want to maintain
an active lifestyle or do I wantto smoke?
So I want to maintain thatactive lifestyle, so I quit.
CK (25:23):
That's great.
It definitely seems like youare the perfect mindset kind of
person to go through all this.
Unfortunately, yeah.
Realistic and and and notafraid.
Phil (25:34):
I get that people are nervous about medicine, nervous
about surgery.
I'm not, because I've just I'vehad my fourth, so I've been
through it before.
I've also just had a lot ofsurgeries.
I get I tear stuff all the time.
I've had plastic surgeries andthree knee surgeries and just it
seems like I'm getting somesort of medical care all the
time.
When, when I leave the house inmy truck, siri and the little
(25:58):
heads up display will will showyou.
You know where do you thinkyou're going.
And I took a picture of it afew months ago, last summer, and
it was the physical therapycenter.
No, it was urgent care.
It was urgent care.
Thanks, mr.
Thanks, phil's going to urgentcare.
Yeah, that's hilarious.
CK (26:15):
So where are you right now as far as doing normal
activities?
You said the fusion was Januaryand right now we are in March.
We're March 17th.
Phil (26:24):
So I was supposed to have my six week follow up with the
neurosurgeon on March 17th.
So I was supposed to have mysix week follow-up with the
neurosurgeon on March 11th.
I got a call the day beforesaying that he's out on leave.
So he pushed that back untilthe beginning of April, which is
a bummer because that's when Ifigured I would have a lot of my
restrictions lifted.
I insisted on that phone callthat they find out if I can
start doing a little bit moretypes of exercise and not just
(26:45):
walk all the time because thatwas boring.
Can start doing a little bitmore types of exercise and not
just walk all the time becausethat was boring.
And they said I was askingspecifically when can I get back
on my bike?
They got the okay because ofhow I'd been doing.
They said start doing yourbiking sort of in moderation.
And then that was really theonly thing that was lifted.
The bending, lifting andtwisting is still in place and
(27:08):
that's still working entirelyfrom home.
CK (27:09):
And will you go to physical therapy?
Phil (27:11):
Yes, I started that, so that's another tip for people
going through this.
When I went to see theneurosurgeon's nurse
practitioner at the two-weekfollow-up that's where they just
do an incision check.
It's not really a realfollow-up, it's just like a
basic first follow-up she said Iasked when I would be able to
start physical therapy because Ihad such a great experience
(27:33):
with physical therapy followingthe last surgery that the
physical therapist put methrough the ringer in such a
great way.
He said by the time I was donewith that, I was doing core
exercises that were really onlyfor people, for highly trained
athletes, and I'm like I'm notthat, I'm just really motivated
to get back to my lifestyle.
But this guy was so good Icouldn't wait to get back to
(27:54):
work with him because I knew howquickly he'd get me back in
good shape.
When I went to see this nursepractitioner, she said you're
going to probably start thatphysical therapy around the time
you see the doctor, which is atsix weeks.
And I said, great, be aroundthe time you see the doctor
which is at six weeks.
And I said, great, I would likeyou to put the order in now so
that I can schedule it now andnot wait until March 11th where
he says, okay, you're free to gonow, go schedule it.
(28:15):
It's a month out, I'm not goingto do that.
So I had my my.
My neurosurgeon's visit wassupposed to be March 11th.
I had my PT visit on March 12thand I was able to keep that.
So I started PT last week.
CK (28:28):
Yeah, and are you still in pain or are you pain-free now?
Phil (28:31):
Pain-free.
I don't feel a thing.
If I didn't have this bending,lifting, twisting restriction, I
would not know that I hadsurgery.
CK (28:38):
Wow, that's amazing.
So you, if someone said, ohgosh, I have to get fusion, you
would say don't worry about it.
Phil (28:51):
Don't worry about it.
It's all about several thingsin my opinion and experience.
Dan (28:53):
How good condition are you in before surgery?
That's?
Phil (28:54):
true, you need to be strong in the core.
Do as much exercise.
The better shape you're inbefore surgery, the better shape
you're going to be aftersurgery.
Number one number two not allsurgeons are the same, so get a
good one and I know I got a goodone because everything right
down to the incision itself islike you can barely even see it.
It's amazing.
I've seen pictures of otherpeople's jagged nasty.
(29:15):
That is a surgeon doesn't knowwhat he's doing.
Get the right surgeon.
And number two lean heavilyinto physical therapy.
The harder you work after yoursurgery, the better, and the
faster your recovery is going tobe in my.
CK (29:27):
In my experience, Unfortunately, not every doctor
recommends physical therapy.
There's, there's an idea that,yeah, my physical therapist was
a was a savior as far asemotional, like just being able
to move again.
I had to get past fear for that.
So, not going to a physicaltherapist?
(29:48):
I don't get it.
Phil (29:49):
I don't understand that whatsoever.
That's just it was.
I had PT after every one of mysurgeries back into the nineties
, so who wouldn't do it?
CK (29:57):
Well, Phil, if you had any last words of encouragement or
wisdom that you would want toshare with people in your
situation, what would you haveto say?
Phil (30:13):
Don't wait.
I've read a lot of stories ofpeople who said I've been
dealing with this for six months, for years, for 10 years.
I'm like man, I've dealt withthis for quite a bit before, but
I never waited to take actionon it.
So I get people's hesitance todo it, but my experience, and
then the experiences I've readfrom uh, from other people and
from other patients, has beenvery positive.
If, uh, if you get the rightperson.
(30:34):
So I'd say don't wait, becausepeople end up with nerve damage
and numbness and the inabilityto use certain extremities.
If you, if you wait, so it'sit's.
I don't believe herniationsever get better on their own.
It's not the type of tissuethat heals itself Right.
So, um, don't wait, yeah that'sgreat.
CK (30:53):
Did you with the fusion?
Um, did you have any likepost-surgical inflammation, rear
its head two weeks later, oranything like that?
Never, never, okay.
What about with the othersurgeries?
Phil (31:06):
No, no, I never had any.
The only issue I ever had was alittle bit of inflammation
after my second or the firstmicrodiscectomy in 1996, where
the nurse who took my stitchesout missed one.
A couple weeks later somethingwas like that little
inflammation was developingOutside of that.
No, the incisions.
The incisions look great.
CK (31:28):
That's awesome, phil.
I really appreciate youreaching out and being willing
to share your story on Bed Backand Beyond.
It means a whole lot.
Phil (31:37):
I'm happy to be here.
I hope my experience can helpsomeone else.
I know it's an unfortunate clubthat we're in, so the more
people can learn and be ready toadvocate for themselves and get
themselves better.
I wish everyone the best ofluck.
CK (31:51):
Are you also on the Spinal Fusion Reddit community or just?
Phil (31:54):
I am, yeah, okay, great, I've contributed quite a bit to
that.
CK (31:58):
Awesome.
If you are a listener and youhave a positive story of
recovery from a serious back orneck injury, head over to
bedbackbeyondcom and click shareyour story.
I would love to include yourvoice on the show.
Once again, Phil, thank you somuch.
Phil (32:14):
Thank you, I'm glad to be here.
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.