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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And then I did a teeny little rotation like which
should not have been a problem,and I did not have the language
for herniation at that time,but that was pretty much what I
thought had happened, because itwrecked me.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome to Bed Back and Beyond, sharing positive
stories of recovery from seriousback or neck injury.
Your host is CK, a fellowchampion who draws on her own
experience with herniated discsurgery.
Join her as she talks withothers who have overcome the
physical and emotional trauma ofa painful injury and discover
(00:38):
for yourself how you can findhope and encouragement in
recovery.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hi Debra.
Thank you so much for joiningme on this episode of Bed, back
and Beyond.
Before we dive into your injury, how about you tell us a little
bit about yourself?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Hi CK, and thanks for having me.
I was an academic for decades.
I retired in 2021.
I worked in the field ofchildren's literature and now,
since retirement, I'm doing alot of home archival stuff like
family films, working on thegarden which fell into sad
(01:16):
disrepair, and doing a lot ofkayaking, doing a lot of short
day trips to see friends seeshows in cities.
So I highly recommendretirement to anybody lucky
enough to get there.
It's been great.
So did you write any children'sbooks?
I didn't write children's books.
I wrote reviews of children'sbooks, so I did a ton of writing
.
What happens a lot to people inthose positions is that we
(01:41):
develop really high standardsand we're not sure if we can
meet our own standards.
So we're happy to cheerlead thepeople who are really good at
it and write really importantstuff.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
And how long have you been kayaking?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I did some canoeing as a kid and then the first
summer when I retired I starteddoing some kayaking rentals in
the state parks around here andI just really loved it.
And then a couple years ago Ibought a teeny little kayak that
fits inside my Prius, so Idon't even have to hoist it up
to a roof rack, I just shove thething in the car and off I go.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
And I really love that.
That's great, my husband and I.
We just had our 20th weddinganniversary Congratulations and
we went to thank you to BanffNational Park.
Gorgeous we canoed on MoraineLake.
It was amazing.
I did not want to get out ofthat canoe, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And there's something I mean I'm not like a big
whitewater person or anythingand I don't live in an area
where that's really a thinganyway but there is something
about just the difference insort of the texture of the world
when you're out on water.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Why don't we jump into your back history?
When did it become an issue foryou?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Sure, in 2014, in January which was a bad time to
be out gardening in general, butI was I got into a pitched
battle with a rosebush that wasstuck in a trellis and started
having back pain within about 24hours.
And if I'd known then what Iknow now and I'm sure a lot of
(03:18):
us say this the trajectory ofthat year would have been a
little different.
But I went through PT and Iwent through sports med and I
didn't get an MRI till aboutAugust and I'd been in a
considerable amount of painthroughout that year and my job
was always it's an academicthing, so it's already weird and
(03:40):
we were almost literally underthe radar.
We were working in a basement,so I would like work lying on
the floor or we had a littlesofa.
I'd work on that so I could doadaptations.
But I mean, let's be real, itwasn't great.
So I had an MRI in August andfrom across the room, I saw the
degree of the herniation andsaid, oh yeah, that's not good.
(04:01):
And at that point, oh yeah,that's not good.
And at that point I was.
I had previously had a cervicalfusion, and I want to say 2005,
about 10 years before that, so Ihad enough experience with
waiting too long which, lookingback, I did for this too, but
whatever and knew the instantthat I saw I'd already been
(04:23):
waiting eight months dealingwith a lot of pain.
Things hadn't improved.
I wanted surgery.
I called around the next daybecause there wasn't really much
in the way of surgicalopportunities in the town that I
lived at that point.
The one person who did I'm noteven sure he did
(04:44):
microdiscectomies but he'dretired from surgery.
He was just doing sort ofsurgical consults.
So I called Chicago, which isthe nearest big city, and called
the two big spine centers atRush and at Northwestern, and
Northwestern wouldn't promise toget me in with someone who did
(05:04):
microdiscectomies and Rush did.
So I went to Rush and went infor a consult in probably got in
in August and the surgeon saidyep, absolutely, you're a great
candidate for microdiscectomy,let's do it.
I waited till November because Ineeded to time it.
(05:25):
Since I was in a unit head, Ineeded to time it so I could
take the time off.
So I timed it for the weekbefore Thanksgiving had my
surgery the week beforeThanksgiving had a slower and
more complicated recovery than Ihad hoped for.
So I did a lot of working athome was on.
(05:49):
Fmla really went back to theoffice starting in January and
even then it was sort of shortterm and I had like a temporary
disabled tag which was utterlypointless at work but was
helpful in some other places.
So it took probably six monthsto a year before I was really
able to say, oh, that had been agood thing to do.
(06:10):
I was glad that I did it and,as we will get into, there have
been subsequent developmentswhere I've felt even better.
So I think there's differentkinds of improvement you can get
post-surgery.
There's straight up healing,but there's also just improving
your strength and yourbiomechanics, which can be as
(06:31):
effective as healing in makingyou feel good and able to do
stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
You're my first guest ever attacked by a rose bush,
just so you know.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
It's good to have kind of a unique selling point.
It is it is no more sparringwith the bushes.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Doctors don't warn about that enough.
So, from January to November,between your initial injury and
your surgery, what kind ofthings were you doing for your
back during that time?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Oh, heating pads and whining I had a wine.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I whining with wine.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, sadly, no, no, okay, I had a cane for
occasional use, like there was aonce-in-a-lifetime sort of
memorial reunion thing happeningthat summer up in Minnesota and
that was, you know, in a ruralarea, and I'm like I need
something that says I am afragile thing.
So I wandered around with acane and that was helpful.
But yeah, I've always been abig heat person and still I run
(07:38):
to heating pads every now andthen.
Something is an ice thing andprobably a lot of ibuprofen,
which I think you've been therethat there's only so much
ibuprofen will get you whenyou're in serious distress.
But you do these thingssometimes as an article of faith
(08:01):
as well as because they workLike maybe I don't know, maybe I
shouldn't stop.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
And did you say you tried physical therapy for a
little bit?
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Oh yeah, I did a fair bit of physical therapy Again.
I know so much more aboutphysical therapy now than I did.
Then there is the standard, aswe know when you have an MRI
that shows a herniation,insurance wants you to do six to
eight weeks of physical therapy.
(08:30):
Some of that is just busy work.
It's like it's probably goingto heal here, be occupied, this.
So the physical therapists.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
I mean, and I really support physical therapy.
I love physical therapy, but Ithink it's good to be pragmatic
about what its goals are atcertain points when it's
presented to you.
So they focused on somestandard things like there's a
lot of back extensions.
In fact, I now know I'mextremely extension sensitive.
(09:01):
I don't do back extension atall.
So they kept running me and I'mlike should?
It hurt this much.
He's like, yeah, it'll hurt alittle, no, it shouldn't hurt
that much.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
So it wasn't great physical therapy, but it uh but
you check that box and you gotit and you know it's probably
not a bad thing.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
It probably.
I don't know whether itsustained any of the gains long
enough towards surgery anyway,but it's not a bad thing.
I don't know whether Isustained any of the gains long
enough towards surgery anyway,but it's not a terrible thing to
have some improved strength,like in the glutes and stuff.
If you're going into surgery,that's not a bad thing anyway
because you're going to wantthat.
So I did it.
It did not fix me.
A lot of people most people getbetter in that time.
(09:42):
Yeah, so you just say likeeight months you're herniated
disc pain.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
So after eight months you're like nope, I'm still in
a lot of pain.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, enough is enough.
And retrospectively, I'd sayalso and this I think doesn't
get factored in as much as Ithink it might when people are
talking about surgery and a lotof the time here I'm talking
about Reddit, which is where I'mtalking to a lot of people who
are suffering and I like to hangout and go.
I did it, it went well, I'mdoing well.
(10:12):
Most people like that go away.
I'm still here to go.
Really, most people get better.
But they weigh the risk ofsurgery and there is a risk,
let's not lie, and one of therisks is it doesn't make you
better.
But they don't weigh the risksof not doing surgery.
They don't weigh the risks ofkeeping things the way they are.
(10:32):
So, for instance, I have atouch.
I'm 62 now I have a touch ofosteoporosis in the left hip,
which is the side where I had myherniation.
I think the debility of notusing it contributed a lot to
that and of course, itcontributes to other
biomechanical stuff and you knowit messes with your brain.
(10:54):
Pain brain is a hard thing toget over.
So there's risks in not actionas well as there's risks in
action, and they both have to beweighed.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
For me it was a cost analysis of time.
I was out of work without payand there was no way I could go
back to work.
I was in so much pain.
So it was either wait the eightmonths to see if it starts to
get better or have the surgery,and hopefully it gets better
quicker.
(11:23):
And so I, you know it just madesense financially to get the
surgery sooner.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I couldn't have hung on to my job for another year.
I mean, as I said, I mostlywrote.
That's a really fine mentalprocess.
That is much harder to do whenyour brain is struggling to deal
with pain.
So I was lucky that it was aweird job that I could hang on
to during those eight months andduring the month or two when
(11:53):
recovery was going weird.
But I mean, I think thatespecially when you're talking
about microdiscectomy and notfusion, especially when you're
talking a microdiscectomy andnot fusion, so there's much less
risk of sort of subsequentsequelae, like my cervical
fusion is doing really well.
(12:13):
I have a teeny bit of adjacentsegment where Very little but
people.
I think the sort of commonfeeling about back surgeries I
think comes from old schoolfusions and they're like oh yeah
, if you have a back surgeryit's going to make you weaker
for the rest of your life.
It's really not.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And also they're like if you have a microdiscectomy,
you're likely to have a fusion.
It's like well, I don't thinkit's because of the
microdiscectomy, I think it'sbecause of the microdiscectomy,
I think it's because you'vemessed up your back and that
makes it likely to have a fusion.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Right.
One of the biggest anxietyfactors for me when I was
deciding on surgery or not wasthe number of older people,
older generation people comingto me saying whatever you do,
don't let a doctor open up yourback.
You know all experiencedstories from old fusions Like no
, don, don't, don't tell me that.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, yeah, it's.
I mean it really has changed somuch and you know it's it's
still highly imperfect andthere's a lot going on that I
think we'll get to about what ison a scan and what seems
surgically plausible and whetherthat's going to bring you
relief or not.
But this is also why, again,I'm going to go back to Reddit
(13:30):
discourse a lot why why I don'ttell people whether or not to
have surgery, but if they can'tconvince a surgeon to have
surgery, I'm like, if a surgeondidn't want to have surgery on
you, you don't want to havesurgery.
They like to do surgery.
That's what they live for.
They don't think it's going tomake you better.
(13:51):
They have a really good idea ofthese things.
So you know I wouldn't assumethey're wrong.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Now, do you happen to know the millimeters of your
herniation?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I don't remember.
I went back and checked andthis goes a little bit to what I
was just talking about aboutscans and stuff.
I looked at my text reports ofthe MRI pre-surgery and then I
had another one in 2020, becauseI developed a lot of back pain
in 2020.
A lot of us had pain in 2020.
(14:24):
And that got a lot better withreally good PT.
But the scan, the radiologysupport, is not hugely different
, which is kind of interesting,is not hugely different, which
is kind of interesting.
But yeah, I also had alaminectomy and that I think was
pretty significant because itwas, let's see, yes, moderate to
(14:47):
severe central spinal canalstenosis.
But I vividly remember thevisual of the standard sagittal
cut of the MRI and I literally,as I said, was sitting on the
exam table across the room.
From the computer going, I cansee that.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yes, I don't know the millimeters measurement of mine
.
I can't find my old report, butwhen I look at the picture I
think that that little thinglike it looks like a little
thumb poking out compared toothers where it comes all the
way out or it's going down.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, yeah, the ones that are ascending or descending
?
Yes, that doesn't look goodyeah.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
I was like what am I crying about?
I was on the floor for twohours.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
But you know, think about itwhat I, what I compare it to, is
like dental work.
It's like you, you get a nervetouched in dental work.
A drill isn't a big thing butthat hurts a lot.
So you know, it's think of itas dental work on your, your
(15:48):
spinal nerves.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So that's going to hurt Now, when you so.
When you made the decision onwhich practice was it just based
on who could see me fastest?
On which practice Was?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
it just based on who could see me fastest.
I went with US News WorldReport and also it was going to
be University of Chicago, rushor Northwestern, and Rush and
Northwestern had higher ratedspinal things.
Northwestern just had the kindof recalcitrant scheduler who
was.
I said, look, I'm reallyinterested in getting a
microdiscectomy.
(16:19):
If that's possible, can youschedule me with someone who
could do those?
And she said we're not going todo that until we know if that's
possible for you.
I'm like okay, but you have toschedule me with somebody.
And I was like I'm not going tohave this fight.
And I called up Rush and theywere like sure, we'll schedule
you with Frank Phillips.
And I called up Rush and theywere like sure, we'll schedule
you with Frank Phillips.
And I went to Frank Phillips,who ends up being the big cheese
(16:40):
there.
And I don't know whether you'veread much, actually.
No, I take it back.
That's the wrong source, nevermind, but there's a Malcolm
Gladwell thing about surgery andhe's basing it on umbilical
hernia surgery and he said youwant somebody who just does this
over and over and over againevery day.
That's what you want and that'spart of why I wanted to go to
(17:02):
Chicago and not there was.
They have like somebody comingin twice a week.
You know they're operating on abunch of different things.
I want somebody who's like.
I have seen 76 spineherniations before breakfast
today, so you know, if I waslucky, I have good insurance and
have been fortunate enough thatI can afford to pay for the
(17:23):
slightly fancier one that letsme go and choose in bigger
cities.
So it was just the first onewho said yes, we will go and
have a look at you.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And was that orthopedic or neurosurgeon?
It's orthopedic.
I made my decision based on whocould get me in soonest.
Yeah, Terrible way to make adecision, but you're in so much
pain you'll do anything.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, I think if you weed out the bottom feeders, if
you will after that, I think formost of us it's obviously super
important to us, but I don'tthink it's that hard a surgery
to do.
I think when you know whatyou're doing, this is fairly
straightforward.
Sure, I don't think that neuroversus ortho matters a ton.
(18:10):
It doesn't.
I don't think it does either.
Yeah, I mean there's a littlebit of research that suggests
slightly better outcomes withneuro.
I mean there's a little bit ofresearch that suggests slightly
better outcomes with neuro.
But I think that's also kind ofthe bottom feeder's effect,
that when you get up to acertain level it's probably
pretty much the same.
Right, right, and it's alsowhen you have a specialized
spine surgeon, they're not somuch a neuro or an ortho,
(18:33):
they're a spine surgeon.
That's what they're about.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Right, yeah, and was your procedure same day or did
you have to stay overnight?
Speaker 1 (18:50):
It was same day.
It's two and a half hours fromwhere I live.
So a friend and I went up thenight before and she drove me
back that night after I came outof surgery and they were like
nope, we can do that, that's noproblem, we will, I think,
probably did some localanesthetic so that I was
reasonably comfortable on theride home.
The one thing I hadn't factoredin was that, you know, they
(19:10):
pumped fluid in me in themeantime, so desperately needed
to pee a couple times on theride home.
So I used to live on the southside of Chicago, so I remember
there was a Walgreens.
I'm like can you get off?
We need to go to the Walgreens.
Okay, fine.
And then, closer to home, I waslike I don't think I'm going to
make it.
Can we get off at this exit andsee what we can find?
(19:33):
And I'll just stand in a ditchif that's what I have to do.
And we found a lovely pornstore that was incredibly
hospitable, very nice woman,just charming, and she's like oh
sure, use the bathroom.
Beautiful little ceramicbustier with dried flowers on
the back of the toilet, andwe're like this is wonderful.
(19:54):
If we ever need porn, we'recoming back here.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Probably would have boosted your spirits while you
were recovering.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I wasn't feeling quite up to it but, later on for
later use.
So yeah, that was it was.
It was mostly negotiating thebathroom stops and I was very
glad to be home and well, therewere a few times in recovery.
Standard protocol would havebeen a post-surgery exam, like
within a month or something, andthey said you know what, you
(20:22):
don't need to come up.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
That's going to be it .
So you mentioned that yourrecovery was difficult.
Can we talk about that a littlebit?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
In what way I had what I think is not uncommon,
which is some delayed post-opinflammation.
Uncommon which is some delayedpost-op inflammation.
And my surgeon and I think thisis not uncommon really likes to
focus on the positive stories.
He was also and I was perfectlyhappy with him, but he was not
a people person and very wiselyleft the handling the humans to
(20:52):
like his physician assistant.
And the first week went prettywell and I was, you know,
mapping how far I was walking.
And the second week things kindof got worse and I wasn't super
happy about that.
But, you know, hanging in thereand then I did a teeny little
rotation like which should nothave been a problem, and I did
(21:14):
not have the language forherniation at that time, but
that was pretty much what Ithought had happened because it
wrecked me and I spoke to theoffice and they're like we think
you just irritated a nerve,we're going to prescribe you
some Lyrica and we're going tosuggest you hang in there,
(21:38):
suggest you hang in there.
But yeah, that was the famousChristmas where I was kind of
butt, scooting my way around thehouse and sort of lying on the
floor and crying and watchingPoirot.
So a low point.
If again.
If I'd known then what I knownow, also about how it came out,
I would have been mentallyready for it in a way that I
wasn't Right.
Right, and that's again.
People I see posting are going.
(21:59):
I had surgery two weeks ago andthings are really starting to
hurt.
I'm like I don't know what thesurgeon told you.
This actually happens.
Yes, it doesn't mean it didn'twork.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
That's why I started the Reddit, because I got hit
with the two week surge of painand then I think it was five to
six weeks, another round of painand weird symptoms and also
many ups and downs.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
The weird symptoms are wild.
I genuinely thought I haddeveloped tarsal tunnel syndrome
at one point, because I'm likenobody had, ever I hadn't had
pain on the inside of my anklebone.
It was like what the hell wouldthat?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
have to do with it.
Yeah Well.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I had pain in the opposite leg leg swelling.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
My butt was cramping.
I had to drag my foot.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, and it is.
You know.
Now it's funny, we got throughit, it turned out okay.
But during that time I mean oneof the things I remember
specifically is that I asked mysurgeon I said my bedroom's
things I remember specificallyis that I asked my surgeon I
said my bedroom's on the secondfloor Do I need to make
arrangements?
He said never had anybody had aproblem with stairs.
So after four weeks I went upon my two legs and not on my
(23:10):
arms and feet anymore.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, it's emotionally traumatic.
Yeah, the recovery for a lot ofus, not for everyone, not for
everyone.
But yeah, no, but.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
I think the flip side of the generation is like don't
let the doctors in there withtheir knives.
Yeah, all the people are likeoh yeah, my, you know doctors
especially love the.
My colleague had that and hewent and did more surgery that
same day.
You know they're all.
I went dancing that night and Iwas like well, that's not
what's happening to me.
Is this right?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
my brother-in-law just last year.
He had a uh microdiscectomyafter waiting 20 years, you know
, dealing with the pain for 20years.
He he had the surgery on thefront on Friday.
He was back to his job onmonday and he's a painter.
So, like climbing ladders, Isaid how on earth are you doing
this?
And he said well, pain has beenmy friend for the last 20 years
(24:06):
, so it doesn't feel anydifferent to me like I'm crying
I mean, you do get differentrelationships with this pain,
it's true.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Um, I find in some ways I'm actually less tolerant
of it than I was because it wasso stressful at that point.
I have a better understandingof it and I can figure out
better where it fits in thelandscape.
But I don't think I would havethe ability now to go.
(24:39):
No, I'll wait eight months andwork lying on the floor.
I don't think.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I could do that.
So are you back to kayaking andthings like that?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And how soon after surgery didit take you to start getting
back into your normal living?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Well, I didn't really start kayaking until 2021.
So that was seven years aftersurgery and my work was pretty
intensely focused, so it took alot of time.
There's a lot of after hoursreading and stuff like that.
(25:16):
So my I mean which is my way ofsaying my normal life didn't
involve doing a lot, so itdidn't take a lot to get back to
that.
Um, I think that people talkabout the year as a useful
marker and yeah, I think I waspretty much doing most things by
year.
The, the 2020 back pain, um,where I kind of had another.
(25:39):
MRI and they said it's probablyyour facet joints.
Go for a steroid shot, not anepidural, just a steroid shot.
And it did nothing and maybemade things slightly worse, and
the injection doctor said, ohwell, that's probably because we
(26:00):
did it in the wrong place.
We should do it again.
I'm like, no, I don't think so.
I said look, seriously, there'sgot to be something else.
Do you know a specialized PT?
And he said okay, I know thisone guy.
Well, this one guy who Istarted seeing in 2020 has a
sideline in personal trainingtraining and I've been with him
for the last five years.
Um, so that is.
(26:21):
It is, uh, an incredible strokeof good fortune that I know,
not everybody gets to have Um,but I really thought I'd
reherniated and he was like no,you just have no butt here, I'll
work with you.
And in like four weeks, I waslike, oh yeah that's fine,
(26:43):
that's better now.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, I don't think people realize how important the
butt is for supporting the back.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
We all think about our abdomen.
You got to have a butt.
You got to have a butt.
You sit all day.
That's not great for butts.
And then the glute mediusespecially tends to get ignored
a lot, tends to get ignored alot and mine is not very
talented, so a lot of focus onthat and also just the
(27:13):
difference of having somebody towork with consistently is I
think this is what a lot ofpeople really want from
healthcare and can't get is thatit's somebody who is familiar
with my body and who, afterexperience, I now trust but also
can go.
Yeah, that's not right, I'm notdoing that.
Are you out of your mind?
But also, I think a lot of ushave experiences with different
(27:34):
kinds of treatments and PT andgoing.
Okay, I put in a really goodgood faith effort and that did
not help and it kind of sucked.
So you get less enthusiasticabout trying other stuff.
So finding somebody who'sreally knowledgeable and really
curious and intelligent andthoughtful and, to a certain
(27:55):
extent, a scholar.
He's a fellow of the AOMBT.
We talk a lot about pain theory.
We've done a lot of reading onthat.
I'm an academic.
I like that stuff.
That's made a big difference inoverall how this gets mentally
incorporated into my life.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Now, did you try physical therapy right after, or
were you prescribed it afteryour surgery?
Was it part of the healing Iwas?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
not.
And I said are you sure I'm notsupposed to have physical
therapy?
They're like I guess you could.
And I went and had someMcKenzie therapy which seemed
useless.
And I'm not making a commentabout McKenzie therapy in
general, just for me.
I was like, well, that's notmaking much of a difference.
(28:39):
I don't know whether you'vedone any McKenzie, but that's
basically sort of finding reliefpositions and if you keep going
at the relief positions, thatwill help things.
And he was always like has itimproved anything?
I'm like maybe half a point, Idon't know More targeted and
perceptive focuses and strengthand working.
(29:02):
It's also important to work withthat window and I think this is
a challenge with the sort ofcookie cutter out of the box BT.
Is it like you will do 15 repsof this thing?
Well, your body might only beable to tolerate eight.
So it's like if you'd doneeight you'd be fine, you'd be
getting better, but you did 15.
So now you're having a painfulday and you don't want to do it
(29:23):
again.
That's really hard to negotiate, especially when you're not
familiar with how this can goand you're coming out of surgery
.
So I'm not.
I think people should have goodPT after surgery.
I don't know what.
The PT I would have gottenworking down here would have
been really good PT Some.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I swear by my physical therapist because he
was a big help emotionally forme.
Yes, the number of times I wasscared that I had re-herniated,
went into physical therapy andhe was able to show me this is
your muscles reacting and thisis because your muscle is weak.
And I could walk in and theywould look at me and just say,
(30:05):
okay, why don't we lay down anddo some breaths first before we
start?
Because they would see that Iwas having anxiety.
So they were just soinfluential with getting me not
afraid to move anymore.
Like, use your muscles, it'sokay.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
That is huge and I think you know it's, it's
understandable.
It's sort of like I don't know.
It's like if your first timeusing a gas stove it blew up in
your face and you're likethere's weird flames on my gas
stove, it's going to blow up inmy face again and they're like
no, mostly they don't.
Let me show you how to turn theknobs, and that's just.
(30:51):
You know, one of the phrases myPT is considering using in his
business is pain coach, which Iinitially sort of resisted and
then thought, no, actually Ilike it as long as it's not the
primary thing, because mostpeople are like but I don't want
to have pain at all.
But part of what he's been souseful on is that's the same
thing you're talking about isbeing able to say, yeah, it
hurts, but it'll be okay.
(31:12):
Pain is not doom.
Pain is something that can getbetter.
You're going to do things.
It'll settle down.
Pain can be.
You had a bad morning, not?
Oh, my God, I'm losing a yearof my life and I'll never be the
same.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Now, how long did it take you to feel better after
your surgery Physically?
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah, better is a tricky term, isn't it?
Normal maybe term, isn't it?
Um, normal maybe?
Well, I'm not sure.
I ever felt that.
Let's call it six months.
Um, I think it was probablybecause three months is when I
(31:52):
was still kind of uh, sorewalking from long parking spots
and stuff like that and feelingweird stuff.
So, november, december toJanuary, february, april, may,
june yeah, six months is a is agood is a good call.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I think, yes, that's that's what I will say.
For mine, it was a six monthmark when I looked at my boss
and I said hey, I think I'mactually feeling normal.
Yeah, yes, took me a yearemotionally to recover.
Oh, yeah, easily.
Yeah, yes, that's great.
So do you mind if we just touchon your neck fusion a little?
(32:27):
Bit you mentioned that you hadlearned not to wait.
So was neck pain something youjust dealt with for a long time.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
I mean, none of this is your brother-in-law's 20 year
thing.
I do not have that level ofpatience, um, but it was closer
to a year I was.
I was trying to remember whatthe duration was and I don't Um,
and, and it was a little bitsimilar in that it was the
people I was initially seeingwere kind of wrong footing me
(32:59):
and it was like, well, you'dhave to have this dangerous
surgery and you'd have to havethis other thing and then, when
you can, if you're in a smallertown, get out of town and go to
a big city.
I went in this time.
In this case, I went to Barnesand St Louis, which is a
fabulous hospital health carecenter, and the doctor there
(33:20):
said, yeah, you got a herniation, you need a fusion, it's not a
big deal.
Oh, okay, and they had a fellowwho just graduated from that
program who's now practicing inmy town, so I was able to do
that in town and that was abreeze, that surgery.
I had a two-level fusion.
I stayed overnight I don't knowif there even be overnight
(33:41):
these days.
They didn't do like the fullneck brace which still
occasionally some do.
They just sit here, have a softcollar and then a couple of
days later I went.
I have a really short neck, thecollar hurts.
He said, well then, take it off, it's just to make it feel
better, okay.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Um now, did you panic when you heard fusion, or was
your doctor uh great atexplaining the procedure to you?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Uh, mixture of I didn't panic because I just
wanted it over with.
And also he did a good job ofsaying, look.
Also he did a good job ofsaying, look, he was a good
surgeon for an academic, he wasnerdy, he liked getting into the
technical stuff, it was fun.
He said, yeah, you will losesome range of motion at these
(34:28):
levels.
Probably you have lost morerange of motion from pain
already, so you are not likelyto notice a loss.
And that was absolutely true.
The only time for years that Icould tell that anything had
happened was when I was backingup in a car and turning Luke
over my shoulder and I couldn'tget quite the rotation that I
(34:49):
used to.
And interestingly, when Istarted doing a lot of work on
thoracic mobility which I superrecommend for everybody because
that's just so good for spine tokeep that part mobile, it takes
the stress off our poor lumbarand cervical regions Then I
could pretty much turn backaround and now I have a backup
(35:11):
camera so that I think some ofthat was just being younger.
But also in general, I thinknecks are just easier.
They're so much less mobilethan lumbar spines.
I go on the fusion sub and talkto people who are looking at
(35:34):
cervical fusions and go thefusion sub and talk to people
who are looking at cervicalfusions and go.
You know, mine was really easy.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
My lumbar microdiscectomy we'll talk about
, but this fusion was reallyeasy.
This fusion was easier than themicrodiscectomy.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, and I think that's really just a case of
cervical versus lumbar.
Yes, Okay, I mean lumbar fusionsseem like not fun.
I don't want one.
Right fusions seem like not fun.
I don't want one right.
Um, but uh, if I knew now and Idon't even know how much of an
option it was I would probablysee if I could get an artificial
disc replacement at least inone level.
Um, as far as uh activitywarnings, I mean it is one one
(36:10):
of those things.
That is kind of it.
It's up to you.
It's not like the the neckpolice are going to come and get
you.
But the surgeon said so, ifyou're a professional football
player, if you were alreadymaking a ton of money and had a
two-level fusion, you'd keepplaying.
You shouldn't take up football.
But if you were a professionalfootball player and had to have
(36:33):
a three-level fusion, yourcareer would be over.
So I found that useful as a wayof illustrating what the kind
of risk and reward balance is.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
So like I want to try one of those flow riders, the
water parks have them.
They're kind of little fakesurfing things where they have
water going up a hill.
Yes, and my PT was like I thinkthat's fine, don't try standing
up on one.
Yes, that's where.
Yeah, if you bonk your head,your neck is not good.
(37:02):
So you don't have room to spareon that, I'm like all right,
that's fair.
I don't think I probably wouldanyway.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
I have talked to two people on the podcast who have
had the lumbar fusions and bothof them say they wish they had
gotten it sooner, but they hadwaited too long because of the
fear of fusion and since thenthey're feeling great.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
I hear that with knee replacements which obviously
I'm of an age where I have a lotof friends are doing this and I
think people are less scared ofknee replacements as a surgery
but even then I think, yeah, therecovery can often be tough but
that doesn't mean it's notbetter than things were before,
which I mean I feel very muchthat about my microdiscectomy as
(37:46):
well is somebody with a toughrecovery and I think it sounds
like you're feeling the same way.
It's like, yeah, that wasn'tfun, still glad I did it Right?
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yes, if I could go back in time, if I had to choose
again, I would definitely havethe surgery again, but I would
just tell myself all the secrets, for this is what you're going
to experience during recovery.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Right, right, yeah, that you know it.
It might suck for a while.
You don't have to just listento the people who are saying
that you will be cured instantlyand be a Disney character
waltzing through the hospital.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yes, yes, so do you have any remaining sciatica pain
or flares?
I?
Speaker 1 (38:22):
do have some residual sciatica pain to sensitivity.
I have stayed on Lyrica.
I've gone off it voluntarilyand the decision to go back on
it.
I tolerate it really well.
I don't have side effects, it'sall fine and it's not a super
high dose.
And this is something I talkedto my trainer about is that I
(38:47):
can tolerate a lot more workingout and physical activity if I'm
on the Lyrica working out andphysical activity if I'm on the
Lyrica, and for me the goal iswhat is up and around, what is
up and doing, what is doingthings that are contributing to
my health.
So the, the, the Lyrica wins inthat.
(39:07):
The other thing is so I don'tknow whether you've run into the
theory of central sensitizationat all.
That's Greg Lehman.
L-e-h-m-a-n.
Is a good person to look at.
He has an interesting painrecovery workbook, but that's
talking about.
Again, I see some people onReddit.
(39:29):
I'm like I think I see a littlebit of me there that the way I
tend to think of it is like ifyour alarm system went off in a
really big fire, once it getskind of hair trigger, the alarm
system goes off pretty readilyand that's the.
The central sensitizationtheory is essentially that that
(39:50):
your, your system is now alittle hyper reactive and that's
.
I think that's a useful wayalso of framing it.
I mean, I could go on for hoursabout the, and this is a
problem with healthcareprofessionals and not just
patients, but with the sort ofcore misunderstanding that
either we see something on ourscan or we're lying.
(40:12):
It's like no, no, somebodyposted something last night
saying pain is real and whatthey're talking about was a
friend of theirs who turned out,um, after people had missed it,
to have a tumor on their spinelike valid, utterly valid.
But pain is always real.
There's no fake pain, right?
It doesn't make a differencewhat your scan is.
(40:32):
Your pain is real.
Now mine might come a littlemore readily and that's where
the Lyrica kicks in.
It's like all right, that maybedials me back to kind of a
normal Esprance level, andthat's absolutely fair by me.
And also I think being able tomove is itself something that
(40:58):
helps with that.
I think inactivity is so hardon the nervous system, so hard
on the body, so stuff that getsyou up and moving is so good for
you.
Sometimes I just think of us,as you know, like if you had a
dog, it's like it needs to goout for walks, it needs to eat
and it needs to poop.
And are you, are you managingthose?
And if you're not managing thegoing out for walks, what can
(41:21):
you do to do that?
Cause that's really important.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
I was saying it was like I had PTSD for the like the
year after Cause.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
anytime I would get a sharp pain triggered, like you
said, and I would think I'mabout to reherniate and I don't
think it's like ptsd.
I think it is a form of ptsd umit's, you know, probably milder
than if you were in a war, um,but it's a it's, it's a
traumatic response and the otherthing that happens and I think
probably you were experiencingthis too and may still
(41:52):
occasionally is that we, we, welist.
You know, it's like if you're aparent and you have a baby, you
listen for the baby cry, um,and that.
So you miss ordinarily, andthere are noises in your house
you wouldn't have looked for,but it's like I felt something
weird in my leg.
Is this an important thing?
Weird in my leg?
Yes, 10 years ago I wouldn'teven have it, wouldn't have
risen to the conscious level ofnoticing, right.
(42:14):
So you part of the umpost-surgical mental coaching
journey is figuring out thesignal and the noise.
It's going.
Yeah, it was really loud signal.
Before we're back to noise,think of it as noise, right?
(42:36):
Yes, yes, your body made anoise.
Move on, you don't have to stopthe world for that, right?
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Yes, I'm a.
My surgery was 2019.
Okay, so I'll still.
I'll get a.
My numbness never went away,but I only really noticed that
when I'm shaving my legs.
I got to feel the differencebetween the two, and then I'll
get a flare every once in awhile, and it's usually around
work.
If I had a tough day at workand at this point I'm just like
I'll just use my heating pad,yeah, and I just move on.
(43:05):
And and I don't think peoplewere you know, people who are in
it right now can never see themgetting to that point, but you
do.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
I also think that that people who are in it can
sometimes think that anythingshort of I will never feel
anything negative again.
Is is is taking a big L andnobody gets that in their life.
I especially feel for theyounger people who are, you know
(43:38):
, like 20-something and this isthe first big thing to happen to
them physically.
That isn't going to be betterin a couple weeks, right, and
that's so.
That's two lessons.
You're learning about thisspecific injury and you're also
developing a differentunderstanding of bodily frailty
and what health and whatwellness means, and that it
(44:00):
doesn't mean nothing ever beingwrong.
And I'm not going.
I'm 90, I'm gonna have aches andpains, like no, you know, it's
just.
You're always gonna have likethat label in your clothes
that's poking at you and thisother thing and this hair pulls
right and and the back stuff ispart of that.
It's just, it's all as long asit's contained within the.
(44:21):
I can still live my life and Idon't think either of us are
talking about being, um, youknow, brave little soldiers and
working, biting our lips andtrying not to think about our
agony.
We're just saying, well, thatwas an annoying morning and now
things are kind of okay and yeah, god bless the heating pad.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
So you've had so many nice lessons in here, make sure
you have a nice butt.
Learn about pain.
Anything else you would love tosay to people who are
recovering or are about to get amicro disectomy?
Speaker 1 (44:58):
people who are recovering or about to get a
microdiscectomy I'm trying tothink of if I can encapsulate
this because I think it can be areally isolating experience and
I think that's part of why itgets scary.
I think forums can be trickybecause advice is all over the
(45:23):
map and some people areself-interested in selling you
shit and some people are justkind of wandering through and
there was someone last week isgo you have a terrible
herniation Like that's.
That's their vertebrae, son, soyou get stuff like that, but
that I don't know.
(45:45):
It feels alone, but you're notalone.
And one of the things that Isometimes think can be useful to
think about, to get out of myown head, is that you do
sometimes have people saying noone in my family understands
this, and that definitelyhappens.
But I also think there's the Ithink it's called the illusion
of asymmetric knowledge.
(46:06):
Is that we don't understandother people's pain either?
We may think we do.
I mean, they're not thinking alot because we're, you know,
we're in pain, we're in our ourhead, so we're all in our own
head, right?
So, um it's, there are otherpeople going through this.
This is a common experience,even though it feels maybe like
(46:30):
you're totally on your ownbecause your bodily pain kind of
cuts you off from people, soyou are not as alone as you feel
.
I guess I didn't think that waswhere I was going, but maybe
that's where I'll land.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Deborah, it was an absolute pleasure having you on
the show.
I really enjoyed speaking toyou and I'm so glad to hear that
you've had a great recoverysince 2014.
It's a long-term success storythat people are always looking
for, so I think they'll reallyenjoy hearing your story.
Well, thank you for having me.
(47:03):
It was great to talk to you.
Thank you, if you are alistener and you have a positive
story of recovery that youwould like to share head to
bedbackbeyondcom and click shareyour story, I would love to
include your voice on the show.
Once again, debra, thank you somuch.
And then I did a teeny little rotation like which
should not have been a problem,and I did not have the language
for herniation at that time,but that was pretty much what I
thought had happened, because itwrecked me.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome to Bed Back and Beyond, sharing positive
stories of recovery from seriousback or neck injury.
Your host is CK, a fellowchampion who draws on her own
experience with herniated discsurgery.
Join her as she talks withothers who have overcome the
physical and emotional trauma ofa painful injury and discover
(00:38):
for yourself how you can findhope and encouragement in
recovery.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hi Debra.
Thank you so much for joiningme on this episode of Bed, back
and Beyond.
Before we dive into your injury, how about you tell us a little
bit about yourself?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Hi CK, and thanks for having me.
I was an academic for decades.
I retired in 2021.
I worked in the field ofchildren's literature and now,
since retirement, I'm doing alot of home archival stuff like
family films, working on thegarden which fell into sad
(01:16):
disrepair, and doing a lot ofkayaking, doing a lot of short
day trips to see friends seeshows in cities.
So I highly recommendretirement to anybody lucky
enough to get there.
It's been great.
So did you write any children'sbooks?
I didn't write children's books.
I wrote reviews of children'sbooks, so I did a ton of writing
.
What happens a lot to people inthose positions is that we
(01:41):
develop really high standardsand we're not sure if we can
meet our own standards.
So we're happy to cheerlead thepeople who are really good at
it and write really importantstuff.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
And how long have you been kayaking?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I did some canoeing as a kid and then the first
summer when I retired I starteddoing some kayaking rentals in
the state parks around here andI just really loved it.
And then a couple years ago Ibought a teeny little kayak that
fits inside my Prius, so Idon't even have to hoist it up
to a roof rack, I just shove thething in the car and off I go.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
And I really love that.
That's great, my husband and I.
We just had our 20th weddinganniversary Congratulations and
we went to thank you to BanffNational Park.
Gorgeous we canoed on MoraineLake.
It was amazing.
I did not want to get out ofthat canoe, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And there's something I mean I'm not like a big
whitewater person or anythingand I don't live in an area
where that's really a thinganyway but there is something
about just the difference insort of the texture of the world
when you're out on water.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Why don't we jump into your back history?
When did it become an issue foryou?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Sure, in 2014, in January which was a bad time to
be out gardening in general, butI was I got into a pitched
battle with a rosebush that wasstuck in a trellis and started
having back pain within about 24hours.
And if I'd known then what Iknow now and I'm sure a lot of
(03:18):
us say this the trajectory ofthat year would have been a
little different.
But I went through PT and Iwent through sports med and I
didn't get an MRI till aboutAugust and I'd been in a
considerable amount of painthroughout that year and my job
was always it's an academicthing, so it's already weird and
(03:40):
we were almost literally underthe radar.
We were working in a basement,so I would like work lying on
the floor or we had a littlesofa.
I'd work on that so I could doadaptations.
But I mean, let's be real, itwasn't great.
So I had an MRI in August andfrom across the room, I saw the
degree of the herniation andsaid, oh yeah, that's not good.
(04:01):
And at that point, oh yeah,that's not good.
And at that point I was.
I had previously had a cervicalfusion, and I want to say 2005,
about 10 years before that, so Ihad enough experience with
waiting too long which, lookingback, I did for this too, but
whatever and knew the instantthat I saw I'd already been
(04:23):
waiting eight months dealingwith a lot of pain.
Things hadn't improved.
I wanted surgery.
I called around the next daybecause there wasn't really much
in the way of surgicalopportunities in the town that I
lived at that point.
The one person who did I'm noteven sure he did
(04:44):
microdiscectomies but he'dretired from surgery.
He was just doing sort ofsurgical consults.
So I called Chicago, which isthe nearest big city, and called
the two big spine centers atRush and at Northwestern, and
Northwestern wouldn't promise toget me in with someone who did
(05:04):
microdiscectomies and Rush did.
So I went to Rush and went infor a consult in probably got in
in August and the surgeon saidyep, absolutely, you're a great
candidate for microdiscectomy,let's do it.
I waited till November because Ineeded to time it.
(05:25):
Since I was in a unit head, Ineeded to time it so I could
take the time off.
So I timed it for the weekbefore Thanksgiving had my
surgery the week beforeThanksgiving had a slower and
more complicated recovery than Ihad hoped for.
So I did a lot of working athome was on.
(05:49):
Fmla really went back to theoffice starting in January and
even then it was sort of shortterm and I had like a temporary
disabled tag which was utterlypointless at work but was
helpful in some other places.
So it took probably six monthsto a year before I was really
able to say, oh, that had been agood thing to do.
(06:10):
I was glad that I did it and,as we will get into, there have
been subsequent developmentswhere I've felt even better.
So I think there's differentkinds of improvement you can get
post-surgery.
There's straight up healing,but there's also just improving
your strength and yourbiomechanics, which can be as
(06:31):
effective as healing in makingyou feel good and able to do
stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
You're my first guest ever attacked by a rose bush,
just so you know.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
It's good to have kind of a unique selling point.
It is it is no more sparringwith the bushes.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Doctors don't warn about that enough.
So, from January to November,between your initial injury and
your surgery, what kind ofthings were you doing for your
back during that time?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Oh, heating pads and whining I had a wine.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I whining with wine.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, sadly, no, no, okay, I had a cane for
occasional use, like there was aonce-in-a-lifetime sort of
memorial reunion thing happeningthat summer up in Minnesota and
that was, you know, in a ruralarea, and I'm like I need
something that says I am afragile thing.
So I wandered around with acane and that was helpful.
But yeah, I've always been abig heat person and still I run
(07:38):
to heating pads every now andthen.
Something is an ice thing andprobably a lot of ibuprofen,
which I think you've been therethat there's only so much
ibuprofen will get you whenyou're in serious distress.
But you do these thingssometimes as an article of faith
(08:01):
as well as because they workLike maybe I don't know, maybe I
shouldn't stop.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
And did you say you tried physical therapy for a
little bit?
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Oh yeah, I did a fair bit of physical therapy Again.
I know so much more aboutphysical therapy now than I did.
Then there is the standard, aswe know when you have an MRI
that shows a herniation,insurance wants you to do six to
eight weeks of physical therapy.
(08:30):
Some of that is just busy work.
It's like it's probably goingto heal here, be occupied, this.
So the physical therapists.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
I mean, and I really support physical therapy.
I love physical therapy, but Ithink it's good to be pragmatic
about what its goals are atcertain points when it's
presented to you.
So they focused on somestandard things like there's a
lot of back extensions.
In fact, I now know I'mextremely extension sensitive.
(09:01):
I don't do back extension atall.
So they kept running me and I'mlike should?
It hurt this much.
He's like, yeah, it'll hurt alittle, no, it shouldn't hurt
that much.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
So it wasn't great physical therapy, but it uh but
you check that box and you gotit and you know it's probably
not a bad thing.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
It probably.
I don't know whether itsustained any of the gains long
enough towards surgery anyway,but it's not a bad thing.
I don't know whether Isustained any of the gains long
enough towards surgery anyway,but it's not a terrible thing to
have some improved strength,like in the glutes and stuff.
If you're going into surgery,that's not a bad thing anyway
because you're going to wantthat.
So I did it.
It did not fix me.
A lot of people most people getbetter in that time.
(09:42):
Yeah, so you just say likeeight months you're herniated
disc pain.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
So after eight months you're like nope, I'm still in
a lot of pain.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, enough is enough.
And retrospectively, I'd sayalso and this I think doesn't
get factored in as much as Ithink it might when people are
talking about surgery and a lotof the time here I'm talking
about Reddit, which is where I'mtalking to a lot of people who
are suffering and I like to hangout and go.
I did it, it went well, I'mdoing well.
(10:12):
Most people like that go away.
I'm still here to go.
Really, most people get better.
But they weigh the risk ofsurgery and there is a risk,
let's not lie, and one of therisks is it doesn't make you
better.
But they don't weigh the risksof not doing surgery.
They don't weigh the risks ofkeeping things the way they are.
(10:32):
So, for instance, I have atouch.
I'm 62 now I have a touch ofosteoporosis in the left hip,
which is the side where I had myherniation.
I think the debility of notusing it contributed a lot to
that and of course, itcontributes to other
biomechanical stuff and you knowit messes with your brain.
(10:54):
Pain brain is a hard thing toget over.
So there's risks in not actionas well as there's risks in
action, and they both have to beweighed.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
For me it was a cost analysis of time.
I was out of work without payand there was no way I could go
back to work.
I was in so much pain.
So it was either wait the eightmonths to see if it starts to
get better or have the surgery,and hopefully it gets better
quicker.
(11:23):
And so I, you know it just madesense financially to get the
surgery sooner.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I couldn't have hung on to my job for another year.
I mean, as I said, I mostlywrote.
That's a really fine mentalprocess.
That is much harder to do whenyour brain is struggling to deal
with pain.
So I was lucky that it was aweird job that I could hang on
to during those eight months andduring the month or two when
(11:53):
recovery was going weird.
But I mean, I think thatespecially when you're talking
about microdiscectomy and notfusion, especially when you're
talking a microdiscectomy andnot fusion, so there's much less
risk of sort of subsequentsequelae, like my cervical
fusion is doing really well.
(12:13):
I have a teeny bit of adjacentsegment where Very little but
people.
I think the sort of commonfeeling about back surgeries I
think comes from old schoolfusions and they're like oh yeah
, if you have a back surgeryit's going to make you weaker
for the rest of your life.
It's really not.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And also they're like if you have a microdiscectomy,
you're likely to have a fusion.
It's like well, I don't thinkit's because of the
microdiscectomy, I think it'sbecause of the microdiscectomy,
I think it's because you'vemessed up your back and that
makes it likely to have a fusion.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Right.
One of the biggest anxietyfactors for me when I was
deciding on surgery or not wasthe number of older people,
older generation people comingto me saying whatever you do,
don't let a doctor open up yourback.
You know all experiencedstories from old fusions Like no
, don, don't, don't tell me that.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, yeah, it's.
I mean it really has changed somuch and you know it's it's
still highly imperfect andthere's a lot going on that I
think we'll get to about what ison a scan and what seems
surgically plausible and whetherthat's going to bring you
relief or not.
But this is also why, again,I'm going to go back to Reddit
(13:30):
discourse a lot why why I don'ttell people whether or not to
have surgery, but if they can'tconvince a surgeon to have
surgery, I'm like, if a surgeondidn't want to have surgery on
you, you don't want to havesurgery.
They like to do surgery.
That's what they live for.
They don't think it's going tomake you better.
(13:51):
They have a really good idea ofthese things.
So you know I wouldn't assumethey're wrong.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Now, do you happen to know the millimeters of your
herniation?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I don't remember.
I went back and checked andthis goes a little bit to what I
was just talking about aboutscans and stuff.
I looked at my text reports ofthe MRI pre-surgery and then I
had another one in 2020, becauseI developed a lot of back pain
in 2020.
A lot of us had pain in 2020.
(14:24):
And that got a lot better withreally good PT.
But the scan, the radiologysupport, is not hugely different
, which is kind of interesting,is not hugely different, which
is kind of interesting.
But yeah, I also had alaminectomy and that I think was
pretty significant because itwas, let's see, yes, moderate to
(14:47):
severe central spinal canalstenosis.
But I vividly remember thevisual of the standard sagittal
cut of the MRI and I literally,as I said, was sitting on the
exam table across the room.
From the computer going, I cansee that.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yes, I don't know the millimeters measurement of mine
.
I can't find my old report, butwhen I look at the picture I
think that that little thinglike it looks like a little
thumb poking out compared toothers where it comes all the
way out or it's going down.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, yeah, the ones that are ascending or descending
?
Yes, that doesn't look goodyeah.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
I was like what am I crying about?
I was on the floor for twohours.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
But you know, think about itwhat I, what I compare it to, is
like dental work.
It's like you, you get a nervetouched in dental work.
A drill isn't a big thing butthat hurts a lot.
So you know, it's think of itas dental work on your, your
(15:48):
spinal nerves.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So that's going to hurt Now, when you so.
When you made the decision onwhich practice was it just based
on who could see me fastest?
On which practice Was?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
it just based on who could see me fastest.
I went with US News WorldReport and also it was going to
be University of Chicago, rushor Northwestern, and Rush and
Northwestern had higher ratedspinal things.
Northwestern just had the kindof recalcitrant scheduler who
was.
I said, look, I'm reallyinterested in getting a
microdiscectomy.
(16:19):
If that's possible, can youschedule me with someone who
could do those?
And she said we're not going todo that until we know if that's
possible for you.
I'm like okay, but you have toschedule me with somebody.
And I was like I'm not going tohave this fight.
And I called up Rush and theywere like sure, we'll schedule
you with Frank Phillips.
And I called up Rush and theywere like sure, we'll schedule
you with Frank Phillips.
And I went to Frank Phillips,who ends up being the big cheese
(16:40):
there.
And I don't know whether you'veread much, actually.
No, I take it back.
That's the wrong source, nevermind, but there's a Malcolm
Gladwell thing about surgery andhe's basing it on umbilical
hernia surgery and he said youwant somebody who just does this
over and over and over againevery day.
That's what you want and that'spart of why I wanted to go to
(17:02):
Chicago and not there was.
They have like somebody comingin twice a week.
You know they're operating on abunch of different things.
I want somebody who's like.
I have seen 76 spineherniations before breakfast
today, so you know, if I waslucky, I have good insurance and
have been fortunate enough thatI can afford to pay for the
(17:23):
slightly fancier one that letsme go and choose in bigger
cities.
So it was just the first onewho said yes, we will go and
have a look at you.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And was that orthopedic or neurosurgeon?
It's orthopedic.
I made my decision based on whocould get me in soonest.
Yeah, Terrible way to make adecision, but you're in so much
pain you'll do anything.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, I think if you weed out the bottom feeders, if
you will after that, I think formost of us it's obviously super
important to us, but I don'tthink it's that hard a surgery
to do.
I think when you know whatyou're doing, this is fairly
straightforward.
Sure, I don't think that neuroversus ortho matters a ton.
(18:10):
It doesn't.
I don't think it does either.
Yeah, I mean there's a littlebit of research that suggests
slightly better outcomes withneuro.
I mean there's a little bit ofresearch that suggests slightly
better outcomes with neuro.
But I think that's also kind ofthe bottom feeder's effect,
that when you get up to acertain level it's probably
pretty much the same.
Right, right, and it's alsowhen you have a specialized
spine surgeon, they're not somuch a neuro or an ortho,
(18:33):
they're a spine surgeon.
That's what they're about.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Right, yeah, and was your procedure same day or did
you have to stay overnight?
Speaker 1 (18:50):
It was same day.
It's two and a half hours fromwhere I live.
So a friend and I went up thenight before and she drove me
back that night after I came outof surgery and they were like
nope, we can do that, that's noproblem, we will, I think,
probably did some localanesthetic so that I was
reasonably comfortable on theride home.
The one thing I hadn't factoredin was that, you know, they
(19:10):
pumped fluid in me in themeantime, so desperately needed
to pee a couple times on theride home.
So I used to live on the southside of Chicago, so I remember
there was a Walgreens.
I'm like can you get off?
We need to go to the Walgreens.
Okay, fine.
And then, closer to home, I waslike I don't think I'm going to
make it.
Can we get off at this exit andsee what we can find?
(19:33):
And I'll just stand in a ditchif that's what I have to do.
And we found a lovely pornstore that was incredibly
hospitable, very nice woman,just charming, and she's like oh
sure, use the bathroom.
Beautiful little ceramicbustier with dried flowers on
the back of the toilet, andwe're like this is wonderful.
(19:54):
If we ever need porn, we'recoming back here.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Probably would have boosted your spirits while you
were recovering.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I wasn't feeling quite up to it but, later on for
later use.
So yeah, that was it was.
It was mostly negotiating thebathroom stops and I was very
glad to be home and well, therewere a few times in recovery.
Standard protocol would havebeen a post-surgery exam, like
within a month or something, andthey said you know what, you
(20:22):
don't need to come up.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
That's going to be it .
So you mentioned that yourrecovery was difficult.
Can we talk about that a littlebit?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
In what way I had what I think is not uncommon,
which is some delayed post-opinflammation.
Uncommon which is some delayedpost-op inflammation.
And my surgeon and I think thisis not uncommon really likes to
focus on the positive stories.
He was also and I was perfectlyhappy with him, but he was not
a people person and very wiselyleft the handling the humans to
(20:52):
like his physician assistant.
And the first week went prettywell and I was, you know,
mapping how far I was walking.
And the second week things kindof got worse and I wasn't super
happy about that.
But, you know, hanging in thereand then I did a teeny little
rotation like which should nothave been a problem, and I did
(21:14):
not have the language forherniation at that time, but
that was pretty much what Ithought had happened because it
wrecked me and I spoke to theoffice and they're like we think
you just irritated a nerve,we're going to prescribe you
some Lyrica and we're going tosuggest you hang in there,
(21:38):
suggest you hang in there.
But yeah, that was the famousChristmas where I was kind of
butt, scooting my way around thehouse and sort of lying on the
floor and crying and watchingPoirot.
So a low point.
If again.
If I'd known then what I knownow, also about how it came out,
I would have been mentallyready for it in a way that I
wasn't Right.
Right, and that's again.
People I see posting are going.
(21:59):
I had surgery two weeks ago andthings are really starting to
hurt.
I'm like I don't know what thesurgeon told you.
This actually happens.
Yes, it doesn't mean it didn'twork.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
That's why I started the Reddit, because I got hit
with the two week surge of painand then I think it was five to
six weeks, another round of painand weird symptoms and also
many ups and downs.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
The weird symptoms are wild.
I genuinely thought I haddeveloped tarsal tunnel syndrome
at one point, because I'm likenobody had, ever I hadn't had
pain on the inside of my anklebone.
It was like what the hell wouldthat?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
have to do with it.
Yeah Well.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I had pain in the opposite leg leg swelling.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
My butt was cramping.
I had to drag my foot.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, and it is.
You know.
Now it's funny, we got throughit, it turned out okay.
But during that time I mean oneof the things I remember
specifically is that I asked mysurgeon I said my bedroom's
things I remember specificallyis that I asked my surgeon I
said my bedroom's on the secondfloor Do I need to make
arrangements?
He said never had anybody had aproblem with stairs.
So after four weeks I went upon my two legs and not on my
(23:10):
arms and feet anymore.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, it's emotionally traumatic.
Yeah, the recovery for a lot ofus, not for everyone, not for
everyone.
But yeah, no, but.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
I think the flip side of the generation is like don't
let the doctors in there withtheir knives.
Yeah, all the people are likeoh yeah, my, you know doctors
especially love the.
My colleague had that and hewent and did more surgery that
same day.
You know they're all.
I went dancing that night and Iwas like well, that's not
what's happening to me.
Is this right?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
my brother-in-law just last year.
He had a uh microdiscectomyafter waiting 20 years, you know
, dealing with the pain for 20years.
He he had the surgery on thefront on Friday.
He was back to his job onmonday and he's a painter.
So, like climbing ladders, Isaid how on earth are you doing
this?
And he said well, pain has beenmy friend for the last 20 years
(24:06):
, so it doesn't feel anydifferent to me like I'm crying
I mean, you do get differentrelationships with this pain,
it's true.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Um, I find in some ways I'm actually less tolerant
of it than I was because it wasso stressful at that point.
I have a better understandingof it and I can figure out
better where it fits in thelandscape.
But I don't think I would havethe ability now to go.
(24:39):
No, I'll wait eight months andwork lying on the floor.
I don't think.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I could do that.
So are you back to kayaking andthings like that?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And how soon after surgery didit take you to start getting
back into your normal living?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Well, I didn't really start kayaking until 2021.
So that was seven years aftersurgery and my work was pretty
intensely focused, so it took alot of time.
There's a lot of after hoursreading and stuff like that.
(25:16):
So my I mean which is my way ofsaying my normal life didn't
involve doing a lot, so itdidn't take a lot to get back to
that.
Um, I think that people talkabout the year as a useful
marker and yeah, I think I waspretty much doing most things by
year.
The, the 2020 back pain, um,where I kind of had another.
(25:39):
MRI and they said it's probablyyour facet joints.
Go for a steroid shot, not anepidural, just a steroid shot.
And it did nothing and maybemade things slightly worse, and
the injection doctor said, ohwell, that's probably because we
(26:00):
did it in the wrong place.
We should do it again.
I'm like, no, I don't think so.
I said look, seriously, there'sgot to be something else.
Do you know a specialized PT?
And he said okay, I know thisone guy.
Well, this one guy who Istarted seeing in 2020 has a
sideline in personal trainingtraining and I've been with him
for the last five years.
Um, so that is.
(26:21):
It is, uh, an incredible strokeof good fortune that I know,
not everybody gets to have Um,but I really thought I'd
reherniated and he was like no,you just have no butt here, I'll
work with you.
And in like four weeks, I waslike, oh yeah that's fine,
(26:43):
that's better now.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, I don't think people realize how important the
butt is for supporting the back.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
We all think about our abdomen.
You got to have a butt.
You got to have a butt.
You sit all day.
That's not great for butts.
And then the glute mediusespecially tends to get ignored
a lot, tends to get ignored alot and mine is not very
talented, so a lot of focus onthat and also just the
(27:13):
difference of having somebody towork with consistently is I
think this is what a lot ofpeople really want from
healthcare and can't get is thatit's somebody who is familiar
with my body and who, afterexperience, I now trust but also
can go.
Yeah, that's not right, I'm notdoing that.
Are you out of your mind?
But also, I think a lot of ushave experiences with different
(27:34):
kinds of treatments and PT andgoing.
Okay, I put in a really goodgood faith effort and that did
not help and it kind of sucked.
So you get less enthusiasticabout trying other stuff.
So finding somebody who'sreally knowledgeable and really
curious and intelligent andthoughtful and, to a certain
(27:55):
extent, a scholar.
He's a fellow of the AOMBT.
We talk a lot about pain theory.
We've done a lot of reading onthat.
I'm an academic.
I like that stuff.
That's made a big difference inoverall how this gets mentally
incorporated into my life.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Now, did you try physical therapy right after, or
were you prescribed it afteryour surgery?
Was it part of the healing Iwas?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
not.
And I said are you sure I'm notsupposed to have physical
therapy?
They're like I guess you could.
And I went and had someMcKenzie therapy which seemed
useless.
And I'm not making a commentabout McKenzie therapy in
general, just for me.
I was like, well, that's notmaking much of a difference.
(28:39):
I don't know whether you'vedone any McKenzie, but that's
basically sort of finding reliefpositions and if you keep going
at the relief positions, thatwill help things.
And he was always like has itimproved anything?
I'm like maybe half a point, Idon't know More targeted and
perceptive focuses and strengthand working.
(29:02):
It's also important to work withthat window and I think this is
a challenge with the sort ofcookie cutter out of the box BT.
Is it like you will do 15 repsof this thing?
Well, your body might only beable to tolerate eight.
So it's like if you'd doneeight you'd be fine, you'd be
getting better, but you did 15.
So now you're having a painfulday and you don't want to do it
(29:23):
again.
That's really hard to negotiate, especially when you're not
familiar with how this can goand you're coming out of surgery
.
So I'm not.
I think people should have goodPT after surgery.
I don't know what.
The PT I would have gottenworking down here would have
been really good PT Some.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I swear by my physical therapist because he
was a big help emotionally forme.
Yes, the number of times I wasscared that I had re-herniated,
went into physical therapy andhe was able to show me this is
your muscles reacting and thisis because your muscle is weak.
And I could walk in and theywould look at me and just say,
(30:05):
okay, why don't we lay down anddo some breaths first before we
start?
Because they would see that Iwas having anxiety.
So they were just soinfluential with getting me not
afraid to move anymore.
Like, use your muscles, it'sokay.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
That is huge and I think you know it's, it's
understandable.
It's sort of like I don't know.
It's like if your first timeusing a gas stove it blew up in
your face and you're likethere's weird flames on my gas
stove, it's going to blow up inmy face again and they're like
no, mostly they don't.
Let me show you how to turn theknobs, and that's just.
(30:51):
You know, one of the phrases myPT is considering using in his
business is pain coach, which Iinitially sort of resisted and
then thought, no, actually Ilike it as long as it's not the
primary thing, because mostpeople are like but I don't want
to have pain at all.
But part of what he's been souseful on is that's the same
thing you're talking about isbeing able to say, yeah, it
hurts, but it'll be okay.
(31:12):
Pain is not doom.
Pain is something that can getbetter.
You're going to do things.
It'll settle down.
Pain can be.
You had a bad morning, not?
Oh, my God, I'm losing a yearof my life and I'll never be the
same.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Now, how long did it take you to feel better after
your surgery Physically?
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah, better is a tricky term, isn't it?
Normal maybe term, isn't it?
Um, normal maybe?
Well, I'm not sure.
I ever felt that.
Let's call it six months.
Um, I think it was probablybecause three months is when I
(31:52):
was still kind of uh, sorewalking from long parking spots
and stuff like that and feelingweird stuff.
So, november, december toJanuary, february, april, may,
june yeah, six months is a is agood is a good call.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I think, yes, that's that's what I will say.
For mine, it was a six monthmark when I looked at my boss
and I said hey, I think I'mactually feeling normal.
Yeah, yes, took me a yearemotionally to recover.
Oh, yeah, easily.
Yeah, yes, that's great.
So do you mind if we just touchon your neck fusion a little?
(32:27):
Bit you mentioned that you hadlearned not to wait.
So was neck pain something youjust dealt with for a long time.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
I mean, none of this is your brother-in-law's 20 year
thing.
I do not have that level ofpatience, um, but it was closer
to a year I was.
I was trying to remember whatthe duration was and I don't Um,
and, and it was a little bitsimilar in that it was the
people I was initially seeingwere kind of wrong footing me
(32:59):
and it was like, well, you'dhave to have this dangerous
surgery and you'd have to havethis other thing and then, when
you can, if you're in a smallertown, get out of town and go to
a big city.
I went in this time.
In this case, I went to Barnesand St Louis, which is a
fabulous hospital health carecenter, and the doctor there
(33:20):
said, yeah, you got a herniation, you need a fusion, it's not a
big deal.
Oh, okay, and they had a fellowwho just graduated from that
program who's now practicing inmy town, so I was able to do
that in town and that was abreeze, that surgery.
I had a two-level fusion.
I stayed overnight I don't knowif there even be overnight
(33:41):
these days.
They didn't do like the fullneck brace which still
occasionally some do.
They just sit here, have a softcollar and then a couple of
days later I went.
I have a really short neck, thecollar hurts.
He said, well then, take it off, it's just to make it feel
better, okay.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Um now, did you panic when you heard fusion, or was
your doctor uh great atexplaining the procedure to you?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Uh, mixture of I didn't panic because I just
wanted it over with.
And also he did a good job ofsaying, look.
Also he did a good job ofsaying, look, he was a good
surgeon for an academic, he wasnerdy, he liked getting into the
technical stuff, it was fun.
He said, yeah, you will losesome range of motion at these
(34:28):
levels.
Probably you have lost morerange of motion from pain
already, so you are not likelyto notice a loss.
And that was absolutely true.
The only time for years that Icould tell that anything had
happened was when I was backingup in a car and turning Luke
over my shoulder and I couldn'tget quite the rotation that I
(34:49):
used to.
And interestingly, when Istarted doing a lot of work on
thoracic mobility which I superrecommend for everybody because
that's just so good for spine tokeep that part mobile, it takes
the stress off our poor lumbarand cervical regions Then I
could pretty much turn backaround and now I have a backup
(35:11):
camera so that I think some ofthat was just being younger.
But also in general, I thinknecks are just easier.
They're so much less mobilethan lumbar spines.
I go on the fusion sub and talkto people who are looking at
(35:34):
cervical fusions and go thefusion sub and talk to people
who are looking at cervicalfusions and go.
You know, mine was really easy.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
My lumbar microdiscectomy we'll talk about
, but this fusion was reallyeasy.
This fusion was easier than themicrodiscectomy.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, and I think that's really just a case of
cervical versus lumbar.
Yes, Okay, I mean lumbar fusionsseem like not fun.
I don't want one.
Right fusions seem like not fun.
I don't want one right.
Um, but uh, if I knew now and Idon't even know how much of an
option it was I would probablysee if I could get an artificial
disc replacement at least inone level.
Um, as far as uh activitywarnings, I mean it is one one
(36:10):
of those things.
That is kind of it.
It's up to you.
It's not like the the neckpolice are going to come and get
you.
But the surgeon said so, ifyou're a professional football
player, if you were alreadymaking a ton of money and had a
two-level fusion, you'd keepplaying.
You shouldn't take up football.
But if you were a professionalfootball player and had to have
(36:33):
a three-level fusion, yourcareer would be over.
So I found that useful as a wayof illustrating what the kind
of risk and reward balance is.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
So like I want to try one of those flow riders, the
water parks have them.
They're kind of little fakesurfing things where they have
water going up a hill.
Yes, and my PT was like I thinkthat's fine, don't try standing
up on one.
Yes, that's where.
Yeah, if you bonk your head,your neck is not good.
(37:02):
So you don't have room to spareon that, I'm like all right,
that's fair.
I don't think I probably wouldanyway.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
I have talked to two people on the podcast who have
had the lumbar fusions and bothof them say they wish they had
gotten it sooner, but they hadwaited too long because of the
fear of fusion and since thenthey're feeling great.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
I hear that with knee replacements which obviously
I'm of an age where I have a lotof friends are doing this and I
think people are less scared ofknee replacements as a surgery
but even then I think, yeah, therecovery can often be tough but
that doesn't mean it's notbetter than things were before,
which I mean I feel very muchthat about my microdiscectomy as
(37:46):
well is somebody with a toughrecovery and I think it sounds
like you're feeling the same way.
It's like, yeah, that wasn'tfun, still glad I did it Right?
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yes, if I could go back in time, if I had to choose
again, I would definitely havethe surgery again, but I would
just tell myself all the secrets, for this is what you're going
to experience during recovery.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Right, right, yeah, that you know it.
It might suck for a while.
You don't have to just listento the people who are saying
that you will be cured instantlyand be a Disney character
waltzing through the hospital.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yes, yes, so do you have any remaining sciatica pain
or flares?
I?
Speaker 1 (38:22):
do have some residual sciatica pain to sensitivity.
I have stayed on Lyrica.
I've gone off it voluntarilyand the decision to go back on
it.
I tolerate it really well.
I don't have side effects, it'sall fine and it's not a super
high dose.
And this is something I talkedto my trainer about is that I
(38:47):
can tolerate a lot more workingout and physical activity if I'm
on the Lyrica working out andphysical activity if I'm on the
Lyrica, and for me the goal iswhat is up and around, what is
up and doing, what is doingthings that are contributing to
my health.
So the, the, the Lyrica wins inthat.
(39:07):
The other thing is so I don'tknow whether you've run into the
theory of central sensitizationat all.
That's Greg Lehman.
L-e-h-m-a-n.
Is a good person to look at.
He has an interesting painrecovery workbook, but that's
talking about.
Again, I see some people onReddit.
(39:29):
I'm like I think I see a littlebit of me there that the way I
tend to think of it is like ifyour alarm system went off in a
really big fire, once it getskind of hair trigger, the alarm
system goes off pretty readilyand that's the.
The central sensitizationtheory is essentially that that
(39:50):
your, your system is now alittle hyper reactive and that's
.
I think that's a useful wayalso of framing it.
I mean, I could go on for hoursabout the, and this is a
problem with healthcareprofessionals and not just
patients, but with the sort ofcore misunderstanding that
either we see something on ourscan or we're lying.
(40:12):
It's like no, no, somebodyposted something last night
saying pain is real and whatthey're talking about was a
friend of theirs who turned out,um, after people had missed it,
to have a tumor on their spinelike valid, utterly valid.
But pain is always real.
There's no fake pain, right?
It doesn't make a differencewhat your scan is.
(40:32):
Your pain is real.
Now mine might come a littlemore readily and that's where
the Lyrica kicks in.
It's like all right, that maybedials me back to kind of a
normal Esprance level, andthat's absolutely fair by me.
And also I think being able tomove is itself something that
(40:58):
helps with that.
I think inactivity is so hardon the nervous system, so hard
on the body, so stuff that getsyou up and moving is so good for
you.
Sometimes I just think of us,as you know, like if you had a
dog, it's like it needs to goout for walks, it needs to eat
and it needs to poop.
And are you, are you managingthose?
And if you're not managing thegoing out for walks, what can
(41:21):
you do to do that?
Cause that's really important.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
I was saying it was like I had PTSD for the like the
year after Cause.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
anytime I would get a sharp pain triggered, like you
said, and I would think I'mabout to reherniate and I don't
think it's like ptsd.
I think it is a form of ptsd umit's, you know, probably milder
than if you were in a war, um,but it's a it's, it's a
traumatic response and the otherthing that happens and I think
probably you were experiencingthis too and may still
(41:52):
occasionally is that we, we, welist.
You know, it's like if you're aparent and you have a baby, you
listen for the baby cry, um,and that.
So you miss ordinarily, andthere are noises in your house
you wouldn't have looked for,but it's like I felt something
weird in my leg.
Is this an important thing?
Weird in my leg?
Yes, 10 years ago I wouldn'teven have it, wouldn't have
risen to the conscious level ofnoticing, right.
(42:14):
So you part of the umpost-surgical mental coaching
journey is figuring out thesignal and the noise.
It's going.
Yeah, it was really loud signal.
Before we're back to noise,think of it as noise, right?
(42:36):
Yes, yes, your body made anoise.
Move on, you don't have to stopthe world for that, right?
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Yes, I'm a.
My surgery was 2019.
Okay, so I'll still.
I'll get a.
My numbness never went away,but I only really noticed that
when I'm shaving my legs.
I got to feel the differencebetween the two, and then I'll
get a flare every once in awhile, and it's usually around
work.
If I had a tough day at workand at this point I'm just like
I'll just use my heating pad,yeah, and I just move on.
(43:05):
And and I don't think peoplewere you know, people who are in
it right now can never see themgetting to that point, but you
do.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
I also think that that people who are in it can
sometimes think that anythingshort of I will never feel
anything negative again.
Is is is taking a big L andnobody gets that in their life.
I especially feel for theyounger people who are, you know
(43:38):
, like 20-something and this isthe first big thing to happen to
them physically.
That isn't going to be betterin a couple weeks, right, and
that's so.
That's two lessons.
You're learning about thisspecific injury and you're also
developing a differentunderstanding of bodily frailty
and what health and whatwellness means, and that it
(44:00):
doesn't mean nothing ever beingwrong.
And I'm not going.
I'm 90, I'm gonna have aches andpains, like no, you know, it's
just.
You're always gonna have likethat label in your clothes
that's poking at you and thisother thing and this hair pulls
right and and the back stuff ispart of that.
It's just, it's all as long asit's contained within the.
(44:21):
I can still live my life and Idon't think either of us are
talking about being, um, youknow, brave little soldiers and
working, biting our lips andtrying not to think about our
agony.
We're just saying, well, thatwas an annoying morning and now
things are kind of okay and yeah, god bless the heating pad.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
So you've had so many nice lessons in here, make sure
you have a nice butt.
Learn about pain.
Anything else you would love tosay to people who are
recovering or are about to get amicro disectomy?
Speaker 1 (44:58):
people who are recovering or about to get a
microdiscectomy I'm trying tothink of if I can encapsulate
this because I think it can be areally isolating experience and
I think that's part of why itgets scary.
I think forums can be trickybecause advice is all over the
(45:23):
map and some people areself-interested in selling you
shit and some people are justkind of wandering through and
there was someone last week isgo you have a terrible
herniation Like that's.
That's their vertebrae, son, soyou get stuff like that, but
that I don't know.
(45:45):
It feels alone, but you're notalone.
And one of the things that Isometimes think can be useful to
think about, to get out of myown head, is that you do
sometimes have people saying noone in my family understands
this, and that definitelyhappens.
But I also think there's the Ithink it's called the illusion
of asymmetric knowledge.
(46:06):
Is that we don't understandother people's pain either?
We may think we do.
I mean, they're not thinking alot because we're, you know,
we're in pain, we're in our ourhead, so we're all in our own
head, right?
So, um it's, there are otherpeople going through this.
This is a common experience,even though it feels maybe like
(46:30):
you're totally on your ownbecause your bodily pain kind of
cuts you off from people, soyou are not as alone as you feel
.
I guess I didn't think that waswhere I was going, but maybe
that's where I'll land.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Deborah, it was an absolute pleasure having you on
the show.
I really enjoyed speaking toyou and I'm so glad to hear that
you've had a great recoverysince 2014.
It's a long-term success storythat people are always looking
for, so I think they'll reallyenjoy hearing your story.
Well, thank you for having me.
(47:03):
It was great to talk to you.
Thank you, if you are alistener and you have a positive
story of recovery that youwould like to share head to
bedbackbeyondcom and click shareyour story, I would love to
include your voice on the show.
Once again, debra, thank you somuch.
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