March 14, 2025 • 25 mins
What if the chaos that keeps finding you isn't random at all? Laura and Claire tackle the uncomfortable question many of us face when drama seems to follow us everywhere: "Is it me or is it them?"
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to, before you Cut Bangs.
I'm Laura Quick and I'm ClaireFehrman.
I am a professional storytellerand I'm currently working on my
first book.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I have worked in mental health for many years in
lots of capacities and this is areally important time to tell
you our big disclaimer this isnot therapy.
We are not your therapists orcoaches or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I mean you shouldn't really trust us very
much at all, unless you want toand it turns out well, then you
can trust us, that's great.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
That sound means we're recording.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We are recording Another listener wanted to hear
the second verse of ChristmasShoes.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Alright well that episode's over, claire, okay,
and that joke is dumb it wasgreat that we both like
immediately, like she'sdescribing Christmas.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Shoes right now.
It's nice to recap the previousepisode, laura, and it was on
Christmas Shoes.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
No, it wasn't remember to hush, and I will say
for continuity yeah, just likethat last episode and it was on
Christmas.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
No, it wasn't Remember to hush.
Okay, and I will say forcontinuity yeah, just like that
last episode.
This is outside again.
This is an outside episode, onthe front porch.
It's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
It's fake spring.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Today yes, as we are.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
We are at the end of February, where fake spring
shows up and tricks us intobelieving it's going to be 70
and beautiful until it freezesand possibly snows in one week.
Okay, um, but we are talkingabout chaos, which y'all are
being very chaotic right now.
So is it is it me, or is itthem?
You?
definitely right now honestly,it's always been me.
(01:39):
I have been the problem.
If I look back at my history,it's not like I can be like.
No, it was definitely them.
When my life was chaotic, itwas 100% me.
So what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
by chaos.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Well, for me, chaos looked like a bunch of
accidental marriages and a lotof friends that I like to be the
queen of, and so, in order tobe the coolest person in the
room, you have to find some realshit shows, and so that's,
that's what I mean.
What do you mean?
Are you, is it you or is itthem?
(02:13):
Now I don't have a lot of it.
Oh, I don't have.
Yeah, I don't have chaos now,except for every like couple
months I want to start up with.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Start out with a fun mixer instead of this question.
You were like, hmm, I like itwhen Will's like, where could
you go on vacation today?
Instead of like, do you want totalk about how you've been the
worst actually, I mean, this isthe truth.
From like 20 to 30, Ifunctioned in.
(02:43):
If there's a problem, it wasvalidating, so like I always.
I wouldn't even have called itchaos, but there was always like
a thing to be upset about orthing to worry about, and that
was a decade of exhaustion.
There's a lot of therapeuticthings that go along with that
and I don't feel like it wouldbe prudent to go through all of
(03:05):
them, but yeah, it was for sureme.
That felt normal, that feltengaging.
That's how I got love andattention.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
And I don't even know why we have to do this, but
Will.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Yeah, I just have no place for chaos.
You know this, I know I thinkit's just the chaos.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
You know this, I know , I know, I know.
I think it's just the cutest,we get it.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
You're a golden retriever and you have no chaos
ever.
I will say this there'ssomething that really struck me
for people there were a coupleof people that messaged you
around this subject specifically.
You know, when you're goingthrough a chaotic moment, for
(03:51):
instance, if you have childrenand they're going through drama,
like as your kids go throughteenage years, you start to go
like what's happening?
Am I in the vortex of likewildlife?
Well, not you.
Well, obviously, your childrenare also perfect, but um.
There's no such thing, but Ithink that when I think back at
those things, there can besituations where there's chaos
happening, but that is notnormal, it's not the regular
thing.
I think that the is it me or isit them?
(04:13):
Scenario is if you keep findingyourself in a repeatable
situation where it's like plugand play maybe the characters
are changing, but the scenariois really similar.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
What is that?
Not for me, thanks, but what isthat?
What were you going to say?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Well, I mean, just to explain myself, because I
talked about this today.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Sorry, we really have to lighten up on him, that's
okay.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
One.
I really just don't have thecapacity for chaos, like I just
really I'll avoid it.
So if something is seemingchaotic or whatever, I'll just
like pivot and go the other way.
But also just the way I thinkabout things is very pragmatic,
and so that lends itself to notbe chaotic For sure.
And so those are the tworeasons.
One I just think about, evenlike bad stressful situations,
(05:00):
I'm like all right, well, let'sjust think about how to resolve
this, because I want to get itresolved.
And then also, if something ischaotic or tumultuous, I just
will get away from it, I justwant nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So that's why I can easily say like, yeah, chaotic,
not not in my playbook I thinkfor adults now that's what
you're asking like adults thatseemingly are always in like
drama or a problem with a friend, or like the drama finds you
like, because I feel likesometimes people feel that way
(05:32):
like god, how does this keepfinding me like I moved to
another job and now there's likemore drama, or I, you know,
like my friend group, there'sjust always some drama, or
whatever it has to be them right.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Well, yeah, so we recreate our unfinished business
until we get through thebusiness right, and it doesn't
even have to be chaos, butthat's what we're talking about.
So if you find yourself inrepeatedly bad relationships, I
hate to say, well, it's you,because that sounds shitty.
What I mean is… but it was mebut.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
I'm just using a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, I've done a lot of work, but I think like one,
so you don't feel alone.
In case you are in that seasonof your life where you're like,
damn, I just keep hitting thesame wall.
Relationally, I've been thereand you can get on the other
side of it.
So like, don't beat yourself up, just keep listening, don't
turn us off.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah.
So Lori Gottlieb, who wroteMaybe you Should Talk to Someone
, is brilliant and she saidsomething I don't even remember
where I read it, maybe itdoesn't matter.
She said, and boy did it irk me.
She said you marry yourunfinished business and I
couldn't tolerate it and I waslike I saw it and I was like
(06:50):
that's one thing she's wrongabout.
You know, I hate when people arelike people marry their fathers
and I'm like what that?
I haven't seen therapeutically,but it bothered me because the
same pattern from my firstmarriage has shown up in my
second marriage and that isexcruciating.
(07:10):
So the choice is chaos in myinstance would have been running
or blowing up the marriage orwhatever, or looking into the
darkness and walking through itwith somebody that I love and
trust.
So I think that's therelationship piece as far as
chaos.
Like you will continue to findyour unfinished business until
(07:31):
you finish the business, andthat does have to do with you.
On the other hand, if you'relike constantly in it with
girlfriends, like I hear thesestories I cannot imagine having
an altercation with a girlfriendat this point in my life.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I literally just was with someone who told me about a
.
Like adults like my, betweenour ages there's a huge, huge
age.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
It's huge, it's.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I'm very old and you're extremely young, thirty
eight.
You look like an actual eightyear old driving your car.
So let's just be clear aboutthat.
But this person was telling meabout this crazy drama that's
always happening in a friendgroup and my immediately thought
, my immediate thought, was likeI would leave the friend group.
I would not stay in a scenariolike that, because I absolutely
(08:21):
one.
It's one thing if, like, anissue happens and we need to
talk it through and we need toget on the same page or
someone's feelings were hurt orwhatever, totally on board with
that.
It happens, we're all human,okay.
But if repeatedly there is adrama like a housewife situation
happening, I'm outie 5,000.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I love that phrase.
First, I've never heard it, Imade it up.
I think it's like a mix ofseveral iterations Never.
I hear this so often I'm like,well, we're not talking to her
anymore.
What Like in?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
middle school.
It's wild?
No, it's like grown.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
This is a grown people thing, and it's like.
What I keep thinking is likeI'm so grateful that all of my
people are like healing.
They're not perfect, they'refiguring things out too, but
they're like working onthemselves.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, have the ability, like with my tier ones.
I was mean shocking to Amandaand she's like you really hurt
my feelings and I kind of cried.
I was like, oh, like I knew, Iknew I'd been a little direct.
I was like gosh, I'm so sorry.
And she was like want to getcoffee.
Like that's as long as thatlasts like 90 seconds.
So if in those chaoticsituations where it keeps
(09:42):
happening, kind of back to whatI said in the beginning, where,
when there was always a problem,I felt seen important this is
cringe worthy to say butsomebody was paying attention to
me and that is like boosting.
And so if you're like, oh, Ikeep finding myself in these
(10:04):
situations, like what's themissing link here?
So, instead of saying oh, I'msuch a piece of shit and keep
doing this, maybe it's like whatis it that you're seeking?
Because you're just knocking onthe wrong doors for it, and
maybe it's start knocking on adifferent door which is
uncomfortable and it's new andit's vulnerable, but, like, this
is not sustainable.
(10:24):
Does that answer?
Speaker 1 (10:25):
the chaos.
Yeah, 100 percent, and I thinkit kind of leads into that.
And this is like the part whereI feel like we do need to
unpack which is the likeself-awareness versus
self-shaming, which is the likeself-awareness versus
self-shaming, like in thisscenario.
Let's say, you're the person,you're Laura in her 20s, who's
like damn, I keep waking up andfinding myself living this
(10:46):
groundhog day like, and finally,maybe you're at that place
where you're like I need tofigure out what is going on in
me, because I keep gettingmarried, because I keep getting
married and running and movingand taking my child with me,
which is obviously not the bestpart of it.
And the self-awareness piece wasI need some help.
(11:08):
Obviously, I can't figure thisout on my own, but I shamed
myself for so long because whatI, what I did, instead of trying
to figure it out and gettingcurious about like where is this
coming from and like do I needhelp or can I figure it out on
my own, is I would just run away, I would change scenes and hope
(11:28):
that the change of scenery orthe change of people or you know
, a new wedding obviously wouldhelp me heal.
You know that that person wouldmake me happy, or that new
thing or that new job or thatnew position or the new business
or whatever would check the boxand all of a sudden I would be
better and the chaos would begone.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
But alas, You're still you.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
I was Everywhere you go.
There you'll find yourself,that's right there you go.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
That's what we like to say.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I wanna buy, but I think some people like it right,
even if they don't know that.
They like it, like it's justtheir life it's programmed chaos
and turmoil is just the waythat they go about it grew up.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Probably grew up that way, or they either probably
had too much chaos or nobodypaid any attention to them, and
so how do I get a need met?
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, and even though they act like oh, this is
terrible.
Oh girl, I'm so mad about it.
Yeah, but that's you 24 hours aday.
Obviously, this is you.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, and so what that does?
Because they're not connectedto self?
Is it because they're notconnected to self?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
is that disconnect, disconnect, disconnect, and it
just further disconnects youfrom people because you're
uncomfortable here and I thinkand this is something I did too
to detach myself from my ownchaos, right?
So, like, don't look in themirror.
What ended up happening is Iwould be the fixer for all these
other people, like, I'm justthat one phone call you make and
(12:57):
I'll make it all better, andblah, blah, blah, which is
complete, like, I'm sorry, mylife is a dumpster fire.
Why would you trust me to helpyou with anything?
But OK, so you're making thecall to me which makes which
lets me escape, right, so notbeing aware, right, I'm not
self-aware, I'm living in shame.
The way I'm avoiding my shameis by helping other people, or
I'm using the air quotes here,helping other people with their
(13:19):
life.
And it pushed me further intoshame, because then I feel like
a fraud.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
This I do see in my practice a lot Women.
I'm saying women just because Isee mostly women.
Yeah, not by design, it justhappened, or men are scared of
me, I don't know.
But women get to this placewhere they're like okay, I'm
seeing the same pattern likeowning, I have a part in this,
and then it goes intoself-loathing, judgment and
(13:47):
criticism.
Here I go again.
Of course I did it that way,not the like tender, of course,
but like god damn it.
And so then it's like I'll hatethis part of me until it
changes impossible.
So the work is, instead of theshame, it's okay.
(14:08):
Of course I did these things.
How do I move closer toconnection?
How do I move closer to?
I'm saying connection?
Is that landing?
Like what I mean by this ischaos, is disconnect, disconnect
, not real, like I'm gonna fixyou all of that.
Connection is I sit with mypain and I have like love around
(14:30):
it and I can be light.
I can even make jokes about it.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
How you can joke about those parts of your life
now which, by the way, which Iwould historically and in my 20s
, even into my 30s, liedwouldn't tell people wanted to
hide those parts of myselfbecause I was not on the other
side of it.
I didn't know how to joke aboutit because it wasn't funny.
It was really hurtful and Ifelt a lot of shame, and that I
(14:55):
mean honestly.
When I met Shane, my husband,and he said that to me, he was
like you know, shame is likeshit on your shoes.
I was first of all wanted toliterally run 700 miles per hour
away from him immediately andsecond of all was like fuck you,
I don't have shame.
No one had ever named it likethat.
And I was like, oh damn.
(15:16):
And that was a catalyst for meof like, oh, is this what that
is?
I have a lot of shame.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
I feel so nervous about my own story so if we
decide to not engage in thechaos, that means I'm stuck with
myself.
So if I hate myself, I'll goback back and reengage in those
old patterns.
So when I'm saying connect, Imean you have to be with
yourself.
Clients hate that, like theycan't wrap their minds around it
(15:45):
because, like a little shame Idon't think is that big of a
deal, like maybe it pushes youinto doing something that you
didn't want to do or whatever.
But when we think we will growand heal by hating ourselves, we
are misinformed.
So it's not like I jump fromhating myself to self-love.
I sit in the tolerance and sitwith the intolerable feeling of
(16:11):
you get the phone call, can youfix blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm in crisis and your heartgoes pitter patter.
Like of course I can.
It's the pause right there oflike gosh, I wish I knew what to
tell you.
I would call this person orwhatever.
So it's this like free fallingthing of like whoa, I'm going to
change the behavior.
And it's this like free fallingthing of like whoa, I'm going
to change the behavior.
(16:31):
And it's going to feel badinitially because I haven't
engaged in the old chaos, andthen I change.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
I, literally just this week, had someone that I
know I shouldn't engage withengage with me and ask me to do
something that is like my secretfavorite thing, like would you
come speak to this large groupof people?
But I shouldn't engage withthis person and I'm really proud
(16:58):
that, instead of sayingabsolutely I'd love to, because
I knew it was going to put me ina vulnerable situation I'm not
really ready for, I said hey, Ican't do that, but let me refer
you to somebody who probablywill and would be a really ready
for.
I said, hey, I can't do that,but let me refer you to somebody
who probably will and would bea really good fit, but the old
part of Laura probably didn'tlove that the old part of Laura
wanted to rearrange my life tomake this thing.
(17:19):
that was not going to be a goodchoice for me work.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
So you had to sit within the discomfort of like
man.
That sounds like so good, butthe better choice is the harder
choice.
So that's like a long way tosay and this is like the hippie
yoga part that has to come out.
Like it all comes back to likecan I pause before I engage in
these things?
So like will sniffs it out andhe's like oh, I don't have time.
(17:45):
I Like redirect the mission.
It's both of y'all alreadypause and there's no
self-loathing anymore.
It's just like no, that's not agood choice for me.
What do you do?
Make horrible choices?
Speaker 1 (17:59):
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
So mine isn't chaos.
I don't think I have it a lot,but I'll talk I guess about I
don't think I have it a lot, butI'll talk I guess about.
So I get to this hard part inmy marriage where my same stuff
is showing up.
And I told myself fairlyrecently and I keep all this
very secret inside.
(18:22):
Now it's on a podcast, but I'vedone many therapy sessions
between then.
But I had to call my therapist.
I'm like Megan, I thought wewere done.
So I have this little war goingon where it said you're
incapable of being a wife.
That's what your history shows.
So I tell my therapist Well,immediately she comes up on the
(18:43):
screen and I was like I think,and I was so serious, I either
need to see a psychic or startketamine treatment.
And she was like okay, well,tell me more.
You know Cool.
And what it boiled down to waslike, internally, I'm telling
myself you're such a piece ofshit, you can't do this.
(19:04):
Blow it up now.
Go back to what you know, bealone, be super mom.
Survive, survive, survivesurvive because I it is so
uncomfortable for me to actuallylike I just wasn't asking my
husband what I needed so hewouldn't know.
Clueless, you know, you havechickens, you know like he has
(19:26):
no idea, and so thatdisconnected us.
So I disconnect.
This goes back to that abyssthing.
So instead of connecting withmy husband, I'm living in this
turmoil of I knew I can't do itand I'm not telling him.
He has no idea and I'm totallyshut down, working my ass off,
only focusing on kids'activities and no, like, not a
(19:48):
wife, like not a partner, barelya friend.
He's like what is happening andI couldn't you know?
I'm good, I'm good, I'll figureit out, and inside I'm like we
got to pack it up.
I guess you know.
And that therapist helped meboil down to this has nothing to
do with who he is.
As a person, you're not able tosay what you want, what you
(20:08):
need, and instead of doing that,you've told yourself what a
piece of shit you are.
And when she called me out onit, I was like no, that's not
the case.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Actually I think I'm going to call my psychic.
Thank you so much for this callAppreciate you.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
What's funny is one of my friends was like I think
I'm going to have a card readercome into my shop.
I was like I'd like the twoo'clock spot, please.
And I didn't go because I waslike no, like what am I doing?
So so this therapist is likeyou go to the abyss, you go to
this world inside.
No one knows about it.
So dark, it's so lonely, it'sso sad.
(20:42):
You disconnect.
And she was like what wouldconnection look like?
I was like I should probablyjust eat dinner with my husband,
like just anything.
And she was like that's exactlyright.
And so my job, I didn't hatemyself into being a better wife.
I like got to the part where Iwas like man, I feel so bad
right now.
The job was like move, movetowards connection, move towards
(21:06):
connection.
My shame says disconnect,disconnect.
And so the work was like assimple as like okay, oh yeah, I
can't hate myself into beingbetter, but I can do these like
bite-sized things to show up andlike you know, clue my husband
into how I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Well, and also you did the brave thing.
And the brave thing is youdidn't live in that alone.
Even though you were ready tocall a psychic psychic, you also
scheduled an appointment withyour therapist.
They work it's crazy insane whata therapist will actually do
for you change your life trulyokay.
So for somebody who's sittingin this right now because I was
(21:44):
just kind of thinking through,like, if you're in that loop of
like, damn, I keep findingmyself here over and over and
over again, what I'm hearing islike one, you cannot, you can't
hate yourself into somewheredifferent Sorry, girls and being
the collector of all of thechaos or the crazy of your
(22:08):
friend group, of your family, ofyour whatever, and you're the
fixer, then that could just be amedicator keeping you from the
work maybe that you need to doto move into more awareness.
And then what's the last one?
Is there another one?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Well, I just want to say that I sound really like zen
and aware of all this.
I wasn't, and I will say I grewup in a house that was like
really loud, and like there wasaddiction and there was chaos,
and so there is history thatplays a part in this for people.
So, like just be aware of that.
It doesn't mean you have tolike go back and do a bunch of
inner child work, but that'sawesome too.
(22:43):
But my mother is in town rightnow, which is one of my favorite
weeks when she comes and myhouse was chaos.
Like I have two little kids, wehave two dogs, like it was wild
.
My kids are screaming at eachother and one of my kids yells
at the other one.
Maybe you should meditate more.
And I was like, yeah, I do itevery day.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
And my mom goes see how well it's working for your
mother.
I was like really working forher Really.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
But the point is like it is bite-sized, itty-bitty
pieces.
It's not a giant light bulb,it's not a 180.
It is like hating yourself getsyou nowhere.
Sitting with yourself righthere out of the abyss gets you
everywhere you want to go, evenwhen it feels like futile or
useless Totally.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Hey, thanks for telling us what y'all want to
talk about we love it when youdo that.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
It's very helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
It's very, very helpful and we love fake spring.
Thanks for letting us be onyour porch for fake spring.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Do y'all want to guess what bird?
That is real quick.
I'm saying blue Bird.
Yeah, I'm afraid, okay, yeahapp, that's what you're going
with it definitely wants to saysomething I just learned about
this app the other day.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I use it every day.
It's Merlin, a Merlin, justMerlin, merlin, mockingbird,
mockingbird.
It's a northern mockingbird, isit Well?
Speaker 3 (24:06):
I've just seen a blue jay over there too.
Oh, the house sparrowsresponding to him.
Right now.
It's a northern mockingbird, isit?
Well, I just seen a blue jayover there too, which is oh.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
The house sparrows respond into them right now.
It's a great app.
Wait, what's that?
That's cool.
It's called Merlin.
When the weather's warm, thatis my.
I will give y'all a littlemeditation hack.
I don't sit quietly on a pillowfor 20 minutes.
I pour my coffee.
I go outside, I listen, drinkcoffee.
Minutes.
I pour my coffee, I go outside,I listen, drink coffee, and
then I queue up old Merlin and Isee who I've been listening to
(24:31):
and it's the best, which isamazing, because I went for a
walk.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I'm doing some walks this year with no phone, like
that's, like a big part of it isjust like completely psychopath
level no headphones, no phoneor nothing.
Um, and I was overwhelmed withhow much nature, like I was like
, damn, listen to all the thingsI'm missing out on, because I'm
like listening to a podcast ora book or whatever.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Meditation, walking meditation.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Good stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Bye, bye Before you Cut.
Bangs is hosted by Laura Quickand Claire Feerman and produced
by Will Lockamey.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Follow along with us everywhere.
Please subscribe to the podcast.
Find us on Instagram.
We're constantly doing polls.
We want to know what you think,and I know that you probably
know this, but reviewing us andgiving us five stars matters
more than anything, and we areso grateful to have you here.
Welcome to, before you Cut Bangs.
I'm Laura Quick and I'm ClaireFehrman.
I am a professional storytellerand I'm currently working on my
first book.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I have worked in mental health for many years in
lots of capacities and this is areally important time to tell
you our big disclaimer this isnot therapy.
We are not your therapists orcoaches or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I mean you shouldn't really trust us very
much at all, unless you want toand it turns out well, then you
can trust us, that's great.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
That sound means we're recording.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We are recording Another listener wanted to hear
the second verse of ChristmasShoes.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Alright well that episode's over, claire, okay,
and that joke is dumb it wasgreat that we both like
immediately, like she'sdescribing Christmas.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Shoes right now.
It's nice to recap the previousepisode, laura, and it was on
Christmas Shoes.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
No, it wasn't remember to hush, and I will say
for continuity yeah, just likethat last episode and it was on
Christmas.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
No, it wasn't Remember to hush.
Okay, and I will say forcontinuity yeah, just like that
last episode.
This is outside again.
This is an outside episode, onthe front porch.
It's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
It's fake spring.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Today yes, as we are.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
We are at the end of February, where fake spring
shows up and tricks us intobelieving it's going to be 70
and beautiful until it freezesand possibly snows in one week.
Okay, um, but we are talkingabout chaos, which y'all are
being very chaotic right now.
So is it is it me, or is itthem?
You?
definitely right now honestly,it's always been me.
(01:39):
I have been the problem.
If I look back at my history,it's not like I can be like.
No, it was definitely them.
When my life was chaotic, itwas 100% me.
So what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
by chaos.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Well, for me, chaos looked like a bunch of
accidental marriages and a lotof friends that I like to be the
queen of, and so, in order tobe the coolest person in the
room, you have to find some realshit shows, and so that's,
that's what I mean.
What do you mean?
Are you, is it you or is itthem?
(02:13):
Now I don't have a lot of it.
Oh, I don't have.
Yeah, I don't have chaos now,except for every like couple
months I want to start up with.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Start out with a fun mixer instead of this question.
You were like, hmm, I like itwhen Will's like, where could
you go on vacation today?
Instead of like, do you want totalk about how you've been the
worst actually, I mean, this isthe truth.
From like 20 to 30, Ifunctioned in.
(02:43):
If there's a problem, it wasvalidating, so like I always.
I wouldn't even have called itchaos, but there was always like
a thing to be upset about orthing to worry about, and that
was a decade of exhaustion.
There's a lot of therapeuticthings that go along with that
and I don't feel like it wouldbe prudent to go through all of
(03:05):
them, but yeah, it was for sureme.
That felt normal, that feltengaging.
That's how I got love andattention.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
And I don't even know why we have to do this, but
Will.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Yeah, I just have no place for chaos.
You know this, I know I thinkit's just the chaos.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
You know this, I know , I know, I know.
I think it's just the cutest,we get it.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
You're a golden retriever and you have no chaos
ever.
I will say this there'ssomething that really struck me
for people there were a coupleof people that messaged you
around this subject specifically.
You know, when you're goingthrough a chaotic moment, for
(03:51):
instance, if you have childrenand they're going through drama,
like as your kids go throughteenage years, you start to go
like what's happening?
Am I in the vortex of likewildlife?
Well, not you.
Well, obviously, your childrenare also perfect, but um.
There's no such thing, but Ithink that when I think back at
those things, there can besituations where there's chaos
happening, but that is notnormal, it's not the regular
thing.
I think that the is it me or isit them?
(04:13):
Scenario is if you keep findingyourself in a repeatable
situation where it's like plugand play maybe the characters
are changing, but the scenariois really similar.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
What is that?
Not for me, thanks, but what isthat?
What were you going to say?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Well, I mean, just to explain myself, because I
talked about this today.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Sorry, we really have to lighten up on him, that's
okay.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
One.
I really just don't have thecapacity for chaos, like I just
really I'll avoid it.
So if something is seemingchaotic or whatever, I'll just
like pivot and go the other way.
But also just the way I thinkabout things is very pragmatic,
and so that lends itself to notbe chaotic For sure.
And so those are the tworeasons.
One I just think about, evenlike bad stressful situations,
(05:00):
I'm like all right, well, let'sjust think about how to resolve
this, because I want to get itresolved.
And then also, if something ischaotic or tumultuous, I just
will get away from it, I justwant nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So that's why I can easily say like, yeah, chaotic,
not not in my playbook I thinkfor adults now that's what
you're asking like adults thatseemingly are always in like
drama or a problem with a friend, or like the drama finds you
like, because I feel likesometimes people feel that way
(05:32):
like god, how does this keepfinding me like I moved to
another job and now there's likemore drama, or I, you know,
like my friend group, there'sjust always some drama, or
whatever it has to be them right.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Well, yeah, so we recreate our unfinished business
until we get through thebusiness right, and it doesn't
even have to be chaos, butthat's what we're talking about.
So if you find yourself inrepeatedly bad relationships, I
hate to say, well, it's you,because that sounds shitty.
What I mean is… but it was mebut.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
I'm just using a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, I've done a lot of work, but I think like one,
so you don't feel alone.
In case you are in that seasonof your life where you're like,
damn, I just keep hitting thesame wall.
Relationally, I've been thereand you can get on the other
side of it.
So like, don't beat yourself up, just keep listening, don't
turn us off.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah.
So Lori Gottlieb, who wroteMaybe you Should Talk to Someone
, is brilliant and she saidsomething I don't even remember
where I read it, maybe itdoesn't matter.
She said, and boy did it irk me.
She said you marry yourunfinished business and I
couldn't tolerate it and I waslike I saw it and I was like
(06:50):
that's one thing she's wrongabout.
You know, I hate when people arelike people marry their fathers
and I'm like what that?
I haven't seen therapeutically,but it bothered me because the
same pattern from my firstmarriage has shown up in my
second marriage and that isexcruciating.
(07:10):
So the choice is chaos in myinstance would have been running
or blowing up the marriage orwhatever, or looking into the
darkness and walking through itwith somebody that I love and
trust.
So I think that's therelationship piece as far as
chaos.
Like you will continue to findyour unfinished business until
(07:31):
you finish the business, andthat does have to do with you.
On the other hand, if you'relike constantly in it with
girlfriends, like I hear thesestories I cannot imagine having
an altercation with a girlfriendat this point in my life.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I literally just was with someone who told me about a
.
Like adults like my, betweenour ages there's a huge, huge
age.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
It's huge, it's.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I'm very old and you're extremely young, thirty
eight.
You look like an actual eightyear old driving your car.
So let's just be clear aboutthat.
But this person was telling meabout this crazy drama that's
always happening in a friendgroup and my immediately thought
, my immediate thought, was likeI would leave the friend group.
I would not stay in a scenariolike that, because I absolutely
(08:21):
one.
It's one thing if, like, anissue happens and we need to
talk it through and we need toget on the same page or
someone's feelings were hurt orwhatever, totally on board with
that.
It happens, we're all human,okay.
But if repeatedly there is adrama like a housewife situation
happening, I'm outie 5,000.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I love that phrase.
First, I've never heard it, Imade it up.
I think it's like a mix ofseveral iterations Never.
I hear this so often I'm like,well, we're not talking to her
anymore.
What Like in?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
middle school.
It's wild?
No, it's like grown.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
This is a grown people thing, and it's like.
What I keep thinking is likeI'm so grateful that all of my
people are like healing.
They're not perfect, they'refiguring things out too, but
they're like working onthemselves.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, have the ability, like with my tier ones.
I was mean shocking to Amandaand she's like you really hurt
my feelings and I kind of cried.
I was like, oh, like I knew, Iknew I'd been a little direct.
I was like gosh, I'm so sorry.
And she was like want to getcoffee.
Like that's as long as thatlasts like 90 seconds.
So if in those chaoticsituations where it keeps
(09:42):
happening, kind of back to whatI said in the beginning, where,
when there was always a problem,I felt seen important this is
cringe worthy to say butsomebody was paying attention to
me and that is like boosting.
And so if you're like, oh, Ikeep finding myself in these
(10:04):
situations, like what's themissing link here?
So, instead of saying oh, I'msuch a piece of shit and keep
doing this, maybe it's like whatis it that you're seeking?
Because you're just knocking onthe wrong doors for it, and
maybe it's start knocking on adifferent door which is
uncomfortable and it's new andit's vulnerable, but, like, this
is not sustainable.
(10:24):
Does that answer?
Speaker 1 (10:25):
the chaos.
Yeah, 100 percent, and I thinkit kind of leads into that.
And this is like the part whereI feel like we do need to
unpack which is the likeself-awareness versus
self-shaming, which is the likeself-awareness versus
self-shaming, like in thisscenario.
Let's say, you're the person,you're Laura in her 20s, who's
like damn, I keep waking up andfinding myself living this
(10:46):
groundhog day like, and finally,maybe you're at that place
where you're like I need tofigure out what is going on in
me, because I keep gettingmarried, because I keep getting
married and running and movingand taking my child with me,
which is obviously not the bestpart of it.
And the self-awareness piece wasI need some help.
(11:08):
Obviously, I can't figure thisout on my own, but I shamed
myself for so long because whatI, what I did, instead of trying
to figure it out and gettingcurious about like where is this
coming from and like do I needhelp or can I figure it out on
my own, is I would just run away, I would change scenes and hope
(11:28):
that the change of scenery orthe change of people or you know
, a new wedding obviously wouldhelp me heal.
You know that that person wouldmake me happy, or that new
thing or that new job or thatnew position or the new business
or whatever would check the boxand all of a sudden I would be
better and the chaos would begone.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
But alas, You're still you.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
I was Everywhere you go.
There you'll find yourself,that's right there you go.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
That's what we like to say.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I wanna buy, but I think some people like it right,
even if they don't know that.
They like it, like it's justtheir life it's programmed chaos
and turmoil is just the waythat they go about it grew up.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Probably grew up that way, or they either probably
had too much chaos or nobodypaid any attention to them, and
so how do I get a need met?
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, and even though they act like oh, this is
terrible.
Oh girl, I'm so mad about it.
Yeah, but that's you 24 hours aday.
Obviously, this is you.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, and so what that does?
Because they're not connectedto self?
Is it because they're notconnected to self?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
is that disconnect, disconnect, disconnect, and it
just further disconnects youfrom people because you're
uncomfortable here and I thinkand this is something I did too
to detach myself from my ownchaos, right?
So, like, don't look in themirror.
What ended up happening is Iwould be the fixer for all these
other people, like, I'm justthat one phone call you make and
(12:57):
I'll make it all better, andblah, blah, blah, which is
complete, like, I'm sorry, mylife is a dumpster fire.
Why would you trust me to helpyou with anything?
But OK, so you're making thecall to me which makes which
lets me escape, right, so notbeing aware, right, I'm not
self-aware, I'm living in shame.
The way I'm avoiding my shameis by helping other people, or
I'm using the air quotes here,helping other people with their
(13:19):
life.
And it pushed me further intoshame, because then I feel like
a fraud.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
This I do see in my practice a lot Women.
I'm saying women just because Isee mostly women.
Yeah, not by design, it justhappened, or men are scared of
me, I don't know.
But women get to this placewhere they're like okay, I'm
seeing the same pattern likeowning, I have a part in this,
and then it goes intoself-loathing, judgment and
(13:47):
criticism.
Here I go again.
Of course I did it that way,not the like tender, of course,
but like god damn it.
And so then it's like I'll hatethis part of me until it
changes impossible.
So the work is, instead of theshame, it's okay.
(14:08):
Of course I did these things.
How do I move closer toconnection?
How do I move closer to?
I'm saying connection?
Is that landing?
Like what I mean by this ischaos, is disconnect, disconnect
, not real, like I'm gonna fixyou all of that.
Connection is I sit with mypain and I have like love around
(14:30):
it and I can be light.
I can even make jokes about it.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
How you can joke about those parts of your life
now which, by the way, which Iwould historically and in my 20s
, even into my 30s, liedwouldn't tell people wanted to
hide those parts of myselfbecause I was not on the other
side of it.
I didn't know how to joke aboutit because it wasn't funny.
It was really hurtful and Ifelt a lot of shame, and that I
(14:55):
mean honestly.
When I met Shane, my husband,and he said that to me, he was
like you know, shame is likeshit on your shoes.
I was first of all wanted toliterally run 700 miles per hour
away from him immediately andsecond of all was like fuck you,
I don't have shame.
No one had ever named it likethat.
And I was like, oh damn.
(15:16):
And that was a catalyst for meof like, oh, is this what that
is?
I have a lot of shame.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
I feel so nervous about my own story so if we
decide to not engage in thechaos, that means I'm stuck with
myself.
So if I hate myself, I'll goback back and reengage in those
old patterns.
So when I'm saying connect, Imean you have to be with
yourself.
Clients hate that, like theycan't wrap their minds around it
(15:45):
because, like a little shame Idon't think is that big of a
deal, like maybe it pushes youinto doing something that you
didn't want to do or whatever.
But when we think we will growand heal by hating ourselves, we
are misinformed.
So it's not like I jump fromhating myself to self-love.
I sit in the tolerance and sitwith the intolerable feeling of
(16:11):
you get the phone call, can youfix blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm in crisis and your heartgoes pitter patter.
Like of course I can.
It's the pause right there oflike gosh, I wish I knew what to
tell you.
I would call this person orwhatever.
So it's this like free fallingthing of like whoa, I'm going to
change the behavior.
And it's this like free fallingthing of like whoa, I'm going
to change the behavior.
(16:31):
And it's going to feel badinitially because I haven't
engaged in the old chaos, andthen I change.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
I, literally just this week, had someone that I
know I shouldn't engage withengage with me and ask me to do
something that is like my secretfavorite thing, like would you
come speak to this large groupof people?
But I shouldn't engage withthis person and I'm really proud
(16:58):
that, instead of sayingabsolutely I'd love to, because
I knew it was going to put me ina vulnerable situation I'm not
really ready for, I said hey, Ican't do that, but let me refer
you to somebody who probablywill and would be a really ready
for.
I said, hey, I can't do that,but let me refer you to somebody
who probably will and would bea really good fit, but the old
part of Laura probably didn'tlove that the old part of Laura
wanted to rearrange my life tomake this thing.
(17:19):
that was not going to be a goodchoice for me work.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
So you had to sit within the discomfort of like
man.
That sounds like so good, butthe better choice is the harder
choice.
So that's like a long way tosay and this is like the hippie
yoga part that has to come out.
Like it all comes back to likecan I pause before I engage in
these things?
So like will sniffs it out andhe's like oh, I don't have time.
(17:45):
I Like redirect the mission.
It's both of y'all alreadypause and there's no
self-loathing anymore.
It's just like no, that's not agood choice for me.
What do you do?
Make horrible choices?
Speaker 1 (17:59):
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
So mine isn't chaos.
I don't think I have it a lot,but I'll talk I guess about I
don't think I have it a lot, butI'll talk I guess about.
So I get to this hard part inmy marriage where my same stuff
is showing up.
And I told myself fairlyrecently and I keep all this
very secret inside.
(18:22):
Now it's on a podcast, but I'vedone many therapy sessions
between then.
But I had to call my therapist.
I'm like Megan, I thought wewere done.
So I have this little war goingon where it said you're
incapable of being a wife.
That's what your history shows.
So I tell my therapist Well,immediately she comes up on the
(18:43):
screen and I was like I think,and I was so serious, I either
need to see a psychic or startketamine treatment.
And she was like okay, well,tell me more.
You know Cool.
And what it boiled down to waslike, internally, I'm telling
myself you're such a piece ofshit, you can't do this.
(19:04):
Blow it up now.
Go back to what you know, bealone, be super mom.
Survive, survive, survivesurvive because I it is so
uncomfortable for me to actuallylike I just wasn't asking my
husband what I needed so hewouldn't know.
Clueless, you know, you havechickens, you know like he has
(19:26):
no idea, and so thatdisconnected us.
So I disconnect.
This goes back to that abyssthing.
So instead of connecting withmy husband, I'm living in this
turmoil of I knew I can't do itand I'm not telling him.
He has no idea and I'm totallyshut down, working my ass off,
only focusing on kids'activities and no, like, not a
(19:48):
wife, like not a partner, barelya friend.
He's like what is happening andI couldn't you know?
I'm good, I'm good, I'll figureit out, and inside I'm like we
got to pack it up.
I guess you know.
And that therapist helped meboil down to this has nothing to
do with who he is.
As a person, you're not able tosay what you want, what you
(20:08):
need, and instead of doing that,you've told yourself what a
piece of shit you are.
And when she called me out onit, I was like no, that's not
the case.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Actually I think I'm going to call my psychic.
Thank you so much for this callAppreciate you.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
What's funny is one of my friends was like I think
I'm going to have a card readercome into my shop.
I was like I'd like the twoo'clock spot, please.
And I didn't go because I waslike no, like what am I doing?
So so this therapist is likeyou go to the abyss, you go to
this world inside.
No one knows about it.
So dark, it's so lonely, it'sso sad.
(20:42):
You disconnect.
And she was like what wouldconnection look like?
I was like I should probablyjust eat dinner with my husband,
like just anything.
And she was like that's exactlyright.
And so my job, I didn't hatemyself into being a better wife.
I like got to the part where Iwas like man, I feel so bad
right now.
The job was like move, movetowards connection, move towards
(21:06):
connection.
My shame says disconnect,disconnect.
And so the work was like assimple as like okay, oh yeah, I
can't hate myself into beingbetter, but I can do these like
bite-sized things to show up andlike you know, clue my husband
into how I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Well, and also you did the brave thing.
And the brave thing is youdidn't live in that alone.
Even though you were ready tocall a psychic psychic, you also
scheduled an appointment withyour therapist.
They work it's crazy insane whata therapist will actually do
for you change your life trulyokay.
So for somebody who's sittingin this right now because I was
(21:44):
just kind of thinking through,like, if you're in that loop of
like, damn, I keep findingmyself here over and over and
over again, what I'm hearing islike one, you cannot, you can't
hate yourself into somewheredifferent Sorry, girls and being
the collector of all of thechaos or the crazy of your
(22:08):
friend group, of your family, ofyour whatever, and you're the
fixer, then that could just be amedicator keeping you from the
work maybe that you need to doto move into more awareness.
And then what's the last one?
Is there another one?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Well, I just want to say that I sound really like zen
and aware of all this.
I wasn't, and I will say I grewup in a house that was like
really loud, and like there wasaddiction and there was chaos,
and so there is history thatplays a part in this for people.
So, like just be aware of that.
It doesn't mean you have tolike go back and do a bunch of
inner child work, but that'sawesome too.
(22:43):
But my mother is in town rightnow, which is one of my favorite
weeks when she comes and myhouse was chaos.
Like I have two little kids, wehave two dogs, like it was wild
.
My kids are screaming at eachother and one of my kids yells
at the other one.
Maybe you should meditate more.
And I was like, yeah, I do itevery day.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
And my mom goes see how well it's working for your
mother.
I was like really working forher Really.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
But the point is like it is bite-sized, itty-bitty
pieces.
It's not a giant light bulb,it's not a 180.
It is like hating yourself getsyou nowhere.
Sitting with yourself righthere out of the abyss gets you
everywhere you want to go, evenwhen it feels like futile or
useless Totally.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Hey, thanks for telling us what y'all want to
talk about we love it when youdo that.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
It's very helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
It's very, very helpful and we love fake spring.
Thanks for letting us be onyour porch for fake spring.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Do y'all want to guess what bird?
That is real quick.
I'm saying blue Bird.
Yeah, I'm afraid, okay, yeahapp, that's what you're going
with it definitely wants to saysomething I just learned about
this app the other day.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I use it every day.
It's Merlin, a Merlin, justMerlin, merlin, mockingbird,
mockingbird.
It's a northern mockingbird, isit Well?
Speaker 3 (24:06):
I've just seen a blue jay over there too.
Oh, the house sparrowsresponding to him.
Right now.
It's a northern mockingbird, isit?
Well, I just seen a blue jayover there too, which is oh.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
The house sparrows respond into them right now.
It's a great app.
Wait, what's that?
That's cool.
It's called Merlin.
When the weather's warm, thatis my.
I will give y'all a littlemeditation hack.
I don't sit quietly on a pillowfor 20 minutes.
I pour my coffee.
I go outside, I listen, drinkcoffee.
Minutes.
I pour my coffee, I go outside,I listen, drink coffee, and
then I queue up old Merlin and Isee who I've been listening to
(24:31):
and it's the best, which isamazing, because I went for a
walk.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I'm doing some walks this year with no phone, like
that's, like a big part of it isjust like completely psychopath
level no headphones, no phoneor nothing.
Um, and I was overwhelmed withhow much nature, like I was like
, damn, listen to all the thingsI'm missing out on, because I'm
like listening to a podcast ora book or whatever.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Meditation, walking meditation.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Good stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Bye, bye Before you Cut.
Bangs is hosted by Laura Quickand Claire Feerman and produced
by Will Lockamey.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Follow along with us everywhere.
Please subscribe to the podcast.
Find us on Instagram.
We're constantly doing polls.
We want to know what you think,and I know that you probably
know this, but reviewing us andgiving us five stars matters
more than anything, and we areso grateful to have you here.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.