April 11, 2025 • 35 mins
It's Will this time! He's the one with the issue! Well, it's also Laura and Claire... and probably you.
It turns out passive aggressiveness isn't just about your one snarky friend. That disconnect between what we express and what we communicate lies at the heart of passive-aggressive behavior.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to, before you Cut Bangs.
I'm Laura Quick and I'm ClaireFehrman.
I am a professional storytellerand I'm currently working on my
first book.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I have worked in mental health for many years in
lots of capacities and this is areally important time to tell
you our big disclaimer this isnot therapy.
We are not your therapists orcoaches or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I mean you shouldn't really trust us very
much at all.
Unless you want to and it turnsout well, then you can trust us
.
That's great.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Okay, what is always worth the added expense, like
spending a little more moneyeven though normally you
wouldn't, even if you're frugal.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
That list is endless for me I was about to say I can
convince myself.
You know, I gave up shoppingfor Lent.
It's been terrifying.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
What does that mean?
You have to buy stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
No, I have.
If it is not an essential which, let me tell you how I can bend
that rule.
If it is an an essential which,let me tell you how I can bend
that rule.
If it is an essential, I don'tbuy it until April 20th.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Almost finished For me.
I mean, we've talked abouttravel recently.
I've said I can eat in a gasstation, but I will spare no
expense as far as where I'msleeping Hotels.
So to me accommodations forwhere I'm sleeping, I will pay
more.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, for sure, that's a great answer.
More simple, like paperproducts.
So like yes, toilet paper, eventhough I don't want to talk
about it, but like printingpaper, like I recently for our
trivia games that I host, orwhatever, like I give out answer
sheets to.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
You don't want it to be on crappy paper.
I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
But I bought crappy paper accidentally at like a
dollar store or whatever andpeople I felt it and was like oh
, that's crazy how thin this is.
And people talked about it alot, a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
You were getting hazed yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
I can't believe you don't want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I to talk about.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I can believe it, but toilet paper is absolutely the
same.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Like he kind of turned red even saying I was
gonna say, if I have to give ananswer, I would say bedding,
like sheets, really matter.
They change the, the nightsleep that you get, you know.
And if you're a woman, you haveto worry about my sheets giving
me wrinkles.
Sure, yeah, so that's what Iwould spare, no expense on.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Very nice.
What are we going to spare?
No expense talking about today.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Oh wait, there's a school bus coming oh.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Hello children, this is a Front Porch episode.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Guys, yeah, it's another Front Porch episode.
Which is what we do on FrontPorch we wave at the children,
or the child, in that case Onechild in that big bus, lonely
ride Singular child.
They've been out for an hour orso Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Maybe that child belongs to the bus driver.
Maybe, so, Okay, well, I had arecent experience that I thought
I would bring to the show.
I was in a meeting recently anda person who's not normally in
this meeting, that I haveregularly showed up we do not
necessarily report to thisperson and she came at us so
(03:14):
strong, very passive, aggressive, like passive aggressive AF,
and it was off putting.
And in a professional setting Iwas like whoa, it's just not
something that I deal with a ton.
Um, now, I have in historyhistorically definitely had some
clients like that, but man it,it really got me thinking like
(03:35):
well one.
It pissed me off and I didn'treally feel like I could.
I felt like it was trying toengage old Laura.
She wanted to come out and belike well, bitch, let me tell
you.
But instead I was like how manypeople have complained just out
of curiosity?
And none, as it turns out.
She was letting us know about ahypothetical problem that
(03:57):
didn't actually exist andseemingly pretending it was our
problem, but being like reallycondescending, very passive,
aggressive, super rude, and itwas just like an ick, right,
yeah, so gross.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Let's define passive aggressive, because because
here's the thing, Like when yousaid like came out hot and
whatever, when was passiveaggressive?
I think of passive aggressiveas kind of opposite of like
being stern and pointed and hotcoming out hot right.
Am I wrong?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
no yeah, you're not wrong.
I think it was very like.
Maybe I should reframe it.
She asked a question.
The question was can youexplain to me why you chose to?
That was?
It was a tone of like there wasno curiosity in the question,
it was extremely accusatory, andso I think of that as a very
(04:53):
passive-aggressive approach,especially in business, but
really in anything.
If you think about comingtoward even me as your friend,
if you were like, coming at mehot with a like, the tone of
your voice is already soaccusatory even in the question,
like I know the answer to thisand you were wrong and I'm
throwing it out there like that.
(05:14):
So that's why I saidpassive-aggressive.
Um, but am I wrong about?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
that.
No, I think there's differentforms, um, of being
passive-aggressive.
The what came to my mind wasmore what Will was talking about
.
It's this like subtle.
I feel like, for some reason,moms are coming to mind when
moms might be like well, I'msorry I offended you.
I guess I'm the worst motherever Like.
To me that's very like well,when it's almost this
(05:42):
victimization, I guess, of theself so like it's, I'm not mad,
but you're upset but then saysomething about the situation
that shows that you're mad whichis kind of like what she was
saying.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
She was asking a question, but it was clear in
her tone she was deeply offendedby the choices that had been
made around a strategy that shewas not involved in at all,
which wasn't my fault.
There was nothing I could doabout it.
I didn't have that choice tobring her in or not bring her in
.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, so passive aggressive could come out in
that sharper tone and kind ofaccusatory.
But passive aggressivebehaviors could be being silent
and ignoring somebody.
I mean, I think the core inbeing passive aggressive is a
complete lack of clarity, andthe other person is likely
(06:31):
sensing something's going on,but it's not clear what it is.
So the recipient is like whydoes this feel terrible?
Or you said icky, that'spassive aggressive, so it could
be louder or direct.
I say direct meaning like asharp question or something.
But she still didn't get to thepoint.
What were you about to do?
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I feel like this is gonna be the episode where I'm
like oh, I am very passive,aggressive we cracked him
finally after all this secrettherapy.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
He didn't know he was attending.
Well, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
From sitting here one reading over stuff and hearing
some of these examples.
It's because of my trying toavoid conflict.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Totally.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
That that all of a sudden makes me
passive-aggressive, even thoughI'm not trying to be.
But like the silent treatment,yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Say more.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Well, like, oh, what's wrong?
No, I'm fine, like.
That, apparently, is a examplebut, you're brooding, yeah, but
I'm real pissed because I don'twant to talk about it.
So I will like just avoid, andI don't think that I make snide
comments, I don't think thatplays but this whole like silent
(07:43):
treatment and like saying I'mfine when I'm not.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Because the person that probably knows you really
well has sent something enoughto say what's going on and
you're like nothing, I'm fine,and then they're probably left
being like, well, then, what thefuck is happening.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Or then you I think this happens to me too like a
lot, because Shane may be reallypissed off about something that
happened at work and in hismind he's like I just don't want
to rehash it or talk about it,and for me I start just because
of my attachment style.
I'm probably a little bit like.
So we're obviously fallingapart and it might not have
anything to do with me, butobviously it probably does.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Even though he was direct, like that wasn't passive
, aggressive right, so he couldsay, hey, I don't really want to
.
No, no, he doesn't ever say hedoesn't.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
He's not telling me like, hey, something really
shitty happened at work.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
He's just like, no, I'm good, but I'm like, well,
clearly he's not in this Form,if it's nonverbal, since we're
on, that is, I don't know whythis is coming into my head.
I'm like have I done this?
Probably Like angrily loadingthe dishwasher you know Slamming
(08:53):
a cabinet.
Doing something physical.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Will.
This is really resonating withWill.
Well, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Will already is oh no , like I don't want to call
anyone out.
Okay yeah, I don't want to callanyone out, okay yeah, but I
understand that you might knowsomeone, I might know someone
who.
That's the only way that I eversense any kind of like I'm
actually the most hardcorecleaner of all time.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
When I'm really mad, I'm going to start cleaning the
shit out of something.
You know, you know I'm madbecause I'm in that kitchen.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
I hate dishes, but I'll load the fuck out of the
dishwasher.
See that for me that's like I'min the best mood ever.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I'm gonna clean like crazy oh right, if I'm super
happy I clean.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Oh yeah, I'm super happy I've hired a cleaning lady
no, she's, that's indesperation and I'm like I'm
feeling low and really needsomebody to help me.
Um, so yeah, the aside fromsilent treatment is this more
like physical doing stuff.
I mean, there's stuff onInstagram all the time of like.
If you ask your husband to dosomething and if he hasn't done
(09:54):
it in 30 seconds, it's like,well, I'll just do it myself,
like.
To me, that's really passiveaggressive.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Very passive, aggressive.
Okay, so let's talk about wherethis comes from, like where did
?
If you are a person that maybestruggles with this
passive-aggressive behavior,whether you're loud or not, well
, go ahead.
Where did it come from?
Speaker 3 (10:12):
It comes from wanting to avoid conflict.
That's it.
So I don't want to talk aboutit, and so I'd rather give you
the silent treatment.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You know, you know, you know what's up it's so hard
for me to take off therapist hatand I'll just say the question.
I don't have to answer it.
I'm like who modeled that foryou?
What was confrontation like inyour home?
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Non-existent.
There wasn't much no, there was.
They were actually doingexactly what you did.
I mean, I'm sure there wasconflict, but it was a nice
house.
I mean't, there wasn't yelling,and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I don't mean like drug addiction, yeah, I just
mean your parents, which we didexperience.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
They had to rub each other in the wrong way, sure,
yeah, I just don't remember itlike I don't remember it being
something that stuck outgrandparents a little bit and
that definitely was like homersimpson back into the bushes,
like Like I just, for whateverreason, my entire life, like I
will just avoid I wanted to makemy teachers happy.
I wanted them to like me Likeall of it across the board.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Okay, so confrontation, fear of it, want
to be liked, and then eventuallywe know from this podcast our
emotions have to come outsomehow.
So, in the case of Will, he isgoing to not speak to you and
feel all of his feelings alone.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah sure .
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So, aside from conflict avoidant, it's,
sometimes people don't reallyeven know what they're feeling
or how to even say.
Let's use this client example.
Maybe she was scared aboutsomething.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I actually think now, because I've had like a couple
days and I've uncovered like newlayers of this particular
client, I think she feels superoverwhelmed and I think she
feels like very alone and howoverwhelmed, and so sometimes I
think we look for something tocontrol when we don't feel like
anything's in control.
And that can be where it camefrom.
(12:05):
It's like a power play, alittle bit of a like, a power
move, like and maybe again, notbecause of us she didn't feel
included in those conversationsand wanted to be, and that's why
it came out.
So I have, at first I waspissed and then I felt like a
ton of compassion around itbecause I'm like, damn, what
must be going on that I don'tknow about, because this person,
I think, is like wildly likedand like appreciated and highly
(12:29):
valued, and so you know, I haveto believe the mass majority is
probably right on this, and it'snot just like one interaction
she had with me, but I alsothink this behavior can be
modeled for you like.
I think I think you can grow upin a household where this was
like the norm and not yourscenario necessarily will.
But I definitely think when weget to the next segment, like
(12:50):
that part of the like spotted orgot it like that version of it,
I definitely think I grew up ina household where that they it
would almost be like theythought they were being funny,
but it was super passive.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I'm so glad you said that, because sarcasm can be
such a funny piece of humor.
It's highly passive, aggressive, and I'm sarcastic all the time
and so I don't think every timeI'm doing it.
It's like a defense mechanism.
But if you're responding inthis kind of rude tone with the,
with some sarcasm, that'sabsolutely a form of passive,
aggressive behavior.
(13:25):
So everything we've describedas a defense, let me say that
all again, everything we'vedescribed as a defense mechanism
.
So defense means I'm protectingsomething.
So if I'm feeling a need to bepassive aggressive, I don't
think most people are even awarethey're doing it.
By the way, now Will is sosounds like you have some amends
(13:47):
to make what an?
epiphany.
What a breakthrough.
Typically in a defense, I amprotecting something that is
touched on, something that Ilike about myself, and what I
mean by that is I think I'm mosthighly defensive if someone
brings up my children.
I think that would probably befairly common for most parents.
(14:08):
Of course, I would be highlydefensive.
Not only is that in my naturenow, it's biologically given to
me since I had these children,but a value of mine is that I'm
a good mother.
I hold it really tightly.
So if that gets touched on, adefense will come out for me.
So when I'm thinking aboutpassive, aggressive people, well
(14:30):
what is it that they'reprotecting?
So to me it's either this isthe only way I learned how to
manage this it was modeled orsomething feels so bad I don't
have my big boy words or biggirl words to to use, so I'm
going to be shitty, sarcastic,silent, slam some cabinets
(14:50):
aggressively, load thedishwasher or say I'm fine,
you've made this up in your head.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, and I think like that feels very like the
teenage version of yourself isshowing up, right.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Y'all know I love that.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Like that girl that just went through puberty and
she's like get out of my face,I'm fine.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
It's so funny because you're not reading anything,
Claire or Laura here, but I haveall of this in front of me.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Are we right?
Oh yeah, it's exactly right,yes.
Like I'm fine, all of myeducation.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
It's fine.
I'm fine If you say so.
Yeah, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah Well, yeah, it's fine.
Yeah well, this is lifeexperience.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well, you can't make this shit up.
Um okay, what about spotted?
Or got it explain?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
what spotted or got it is.
Well, we're gonna read out somescenarios and then we're gonna
guess if these are passive,aggressive or they're just
awkward hmm, it's a little gamehere.
Okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
All right, it's me versus Claire.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
All right, ready.
Yeah Must be nice.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
What that's passive, aggressive.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, okay, I hated that.
Okay, no worries if not.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
No worries if not.
Oh, I say it all the time.
I refuse to say it's passiveaggressive Gosh.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
I don't think that would be.
I don't think it is either.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
by the way, I really mean it, and if I'm worried,
that's my own fucking fault,because I said it, you know, and
I am consistently worried.
She's probably definitelyworried, Like it is totally fine
that we do it this way and thenthat's for me to work out.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
But I'm not mad at you about it, right Okay, I just
think it's funny how oh yeah,it's passive-aggressive yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I can tell I have these visceral responses to the
ones that are passive, it'sgoing to be an easy game.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Oh, you finally decided to answer your phone.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah, that's passive-aggressive.
I mean it seems just aggressive, but I think it's gonna fit in
passive, aggressive and and rudelevel.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
spicy for sure, definitely spicy.
Yeah, it could be playful butcould be totally loaded.
Because I will say, if you'remy best friend, first of all,
when I call shelly, if she hasher children or I don't talk to
her, and so when she finally,first of all when she re-emerges
and those children are not withwith her anymore, she will call
me four times a day and she'llbe like I guess our friendship
(17:11):
is falling apart now and I'mlike bitch, a whole week and you
didn't talk to me at all and Idon't answer my call because I
am working.
I am not not talking to you.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
How many kids does she have?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
So 25, five.
Really it feels like 25, thoughFive, five as a single mom,
five as a single mom.
She gets a pass every week andI bust her ass too.
Okay, I mean, I guess we'lljust do whatever you want, not
what.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
That's passive aggressive.
That's very passive.
That's very what are youtalking about?
That's incredibly passiveaggressive.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Claire just admitted how passive, aggressive she is.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
I just won.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Okay, I think I heard it differently because I think
I'm a little accommodatingsometimes, so I would totally be
like yeah, we can do whateveryou want and I mean it okay.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
No, I do mean it like on vacation.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
We've talked about this I have a couple of friends
who really like, are they?
Particular, and I'm like thisway, I'm down for whatever, oh
yeah, the way she said itdefinitely was
passive-aggressive okay, that'sfine, I'm just picturing.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I went on this girl's trip to Charleston a few
weekends ago.
It was magical and I told themin the most direct way I want to
plan nothing, I will show up.
I don't care what we eat, Idon't care what we drink, and I
truly meant it.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Wow, which is a big feels like a real yoga Claire
thing to do.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
That's me too.
We talked about this onvacations.
That's how I am.
It is so soothing.
She likes to be in control.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
I do, but I was so tired and I really meant it.
So if they were like what doyou want to do?
I'm like whatever y'all wantand I'm great with it.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I love that Okay so that's a different tone.
I think a tone would to do withit.
Yeah, the way Laura said it wasvery past figure.
What?
Speaker 1 (18:48):
about texting K period.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Look, here's the thing Generational issue.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Yeah, so I have the guy that I work with.
He can't stand when peoplerespond to a text with cool.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
What.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
And I respond to almost every text to him as that
.
And I was like oh, I was likewell, dude, I got this on the
air.
I was like look, I was like, oh, I was like well, dude, I got
it on the air.
I was like look at our time.
I was like every response tohim is because I'm saying, okay,
like that's okay.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, cool, I agree with that.
Yeah, that's good.
You should switch it to coolbeans or yep he hates.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yep too.
Anyway, which are the things Irespond with?
Cool and yep.
Well, I was like a lot of timesI'm like on a run or something
and on my watch I can just likedink hit it and that's what it
sends.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
But, whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
But the point is people think that's very K or
yep, or cool or whatever it'svery passive, aggressive.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I think that's just like such a a dude thing, like
now I don't need to write asentence to tell you I agree
like I'm never offended if, ifshane's, if shane's like, okay,
like I'm like, or even like mybrother, like I don't, I'm not
like wow dick.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Like it's an affirmative response it's an
affirmative response.
Well, I'm saying like yep orcool.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I think k is probably the same thing, I don't know k
period is aggressive, like youtyped a k and then a period.
That's like a hole.
You had to switch keyboards.
I do think this is generational.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
No, you just double.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
You're just like ending the sentence and then it
automatically puts up when bobbyand I have to purposely not put
periods because it just oh yeahoh really, no, I don't need
help, I'll just stay up allnight finishing it.
I mean obviously passive,aggressive, okay, guilt-tripping
cross.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Oh God.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I think I might do some of that.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
When would you say that, unless you just actually
wanted to stay up all night?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I mean I literally go to bed at 8.30 or 9.
I don't mean it like that.
I mean I'll be like I will sayI've got it and I don't got it.
But I think sometimes in likemarriage or with my parents,
I'll be like no worries, I'vegot it.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
But then you finish the sentence and you say I'll
just I'll work the rest of theweek to get this over the finish
line.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I think that's very aggressive.
When you add that I think eventhe no it it's cool, I've got it
, or no worries?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I think no.
I think that's passiveaggressive.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
I think you saying it depends again on the situation
or the tone tone but saying likeno worries, I've got it, can be
passive.
Aggressive I think when you addI'll just stay up all night and
do it.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
What a twat to say that.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Okay, this has actually happened to me.
My sister's ex-husband once Ivisited them and he clearly
hated me like legitimately hatedme.
He gave me a book once, andthis is like 12 or 13, maybe 15
years ago.
He was like, hey, and listen,they also have this on audiobook
(21:50):
so you could even read it.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
That was sweet I would take that as a compliment,
even though I know it'sprobably passive-aggressive or
whatever.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
I was literally like you don't think I read like then
.
Then I was like I don't readthat much.
Yeah, I mean it's back then nowI read 50 books a I mean a year
.
I love reading, but likereading or audiobooks.
I'd say half and half.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah, because my brother and Danielle have this
crazy list of hundreds ofwhatever books a year, but some
of those are audiobooks and theystill count that.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I do half and half For the record.
Unrelated to passive aggressivebehaviors, audiobooks count.
I don't like it when people saythat they don't.
I agree with that.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Some people say they don't, it's still consumption.
It's still consumption.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
And you're still learning.
Okay, venmo request.
That says $4.75 for the coffeeyou said you'd get me back for
that's just aggressive.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
That's just aggressive.
I think maybe just sending therequest for it without saying
anything would be passive.
Aggressive possibly, yes, butsaying the thing you were
supposed to pay me for blah blah, that's just aggressive.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, these are teetering on just straight up
aggression.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I'm thinking like these are pretty aggressive yeah
if you do that, no one likesyou.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
No, nobody in your life likes you, no, like nobody
in your life likes you, yourfriends.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
I hate to say that your kids don't like it.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
I kind of feel like what we just learned is because,
like I will say, I definitelyam the girl who's angry cleans
in the kitchen if I'm reallypissed off about something,
which I'm sure ispassive-aggressive, because I'm
saying nothing but my body istelling you.
So, like the passive side is,I'm not saying anything but the
way I'm moving around our houseis so aggressive that clearly
(23:34):
I'm not well and so, like I lovethat the spotted or got it is
not just like the ick you wouldget if it was happening to you,
but also like the epiphany ofjust like Will being, like I do
that and you saying I think I dothat.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Was that the end of spotted?
Or got it.
That's just the end of it.
I think I do that.
Was that the end of Spotted orNot it?
That's just the end of it, itwas a fun game.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
I enjoyed it I almost feel like we need a game every
time now.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
All right.
So what do we do to move out ofpassive aggressive and into
clear as fuck?
Like how can we get?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
clear and kind.
You know who's about to startis this guy?
Yeah, I'll just go ahead andtell you what are you going to?
Do?
I'm not changing it.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I'm not changing it Because I'm fine with it.
It's a very peaceful way to go.
Where's Danielle?
She's resting or working out orsomething.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
No, I feel like we need to get her out of here.
Oh yeah, no, she's not.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
But honestly, here's the thing.
I don't like to argue.
I want to avoid conflict.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And so if something's bothering me, I would rather
just stay silent about it.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
And then but where does it go?
Oh I don't know.
Eventually my brain's gonnalike explode out of the side of
my head or something, it doesn'tbother like I can just think
about it and then eventuallytalk to danielle about it okay,
so you do, you do eventuallytalk about it some stuff, yeah,
but some stuff also.
I'm just like doesn't matterI'll talk to to Nick about it
some, so you do put it somewhere.
And you exercise a lot which.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I think is a good release.
I want to just shift somethingin your head.
If you're upset in your mind,that will turn into an argument
if you express it, which isinteresting because it's almost
like you just don't want thedistressing feeling out there
because it could turn intoarguing.
(25:13):
I hate arguing.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
But I can still be direct.
I just won't do it.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think and I'm onlyreferencing this with people in
my life that I know are going toargue if I say to them what's
bothering me.
That's good adulthood and sotherefore, I'm just going to
like, just move on.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
So you have to weigh out if it's worth the potential
risk or if this person ishealthy enough to just hear.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Obviously I'm not talking about with Danielle.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
We talk about stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Like that's an easy cover.
You're not in trouble right now.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Yeah, if something bothers her or me, we're gonna
say it right, right, this cameup.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You have a really good the.
What do we do with it?
Um, about confusing versusclarity.
I won't spoil that story orthat like sentence in your
company oh, oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
So, um, I hired a co like two and a half years ago
and I asked her for the first 90days, you know, chief operating
officer.
We'd never really been bigenough to have somebody like
that that could kind of like runsupport for just really taking
care of our people.
And for the first 90 days Iasked her to do nothing but
listen and learn and askquestions, that's it.
I was like I don't want you tochange anything, fix anything, I
just want you to like justlisten and ask questions, that's
(26:27):
it.
I was like I don't want you tochange anything, fix anything, I
just want you to like justlisten, ask questions.
So after 90 days I went to herand was like so what have you
been learning?
Like what do you know about ourcompany?
And she was like, well, goodgrit has a catchphrase.
And I was like, oh my god, whatis it good news?
Speaker 3 (26:46):
and she was like no.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
And I was like expect good things are tagline.
And she was like no.
And I was like I expect goodthings are tagline.
And she was like no.
And I was like and she was likeI'm confused.
And I was like what were youconfused about it?
She's like no, that's yourcatchphrase.
And I was like what do you mean?
And she was like and thenimmediately I felt so convicted
(27:07):
because what will happen is I'mnot in the grind of every day
and so sometimes I will comeinto a strategy meeting where
people have been working reallyhard on something, and I will.
I would have said something likehey guys, maybe I'm confused
here.
Okay, so this catchphrase camefrom directly from me.
I said I'm confused all thetime and like in a, she called
(27:31):
it blessing their hearts todeath.
She was like what happens isy'all bless each other's hearts.
And you'll be like maybe I'mconfused.
I think maybe we're confused.
She was like the bad news is ithas transferred into client
conversations.
So now you're showing up toclients and you're saying you
know?
I was like oh my, why did youwait 90 days to tell me?
This is terrible?
And so she eradicated using theword confused.
(27:54):
In our culture.
We cannot say it.
We are only allowed to say I'mseeking more clarity.
I think I need some clarity.
I'd like to have a meeting toestablish what the KPIs for this
are so like.
Anyways, that was the anecdote.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, what made me think of that was passive,
aggressive behaviors, includingwords, give no clarity and leave
the other person guessing whatis going on.
So to me, if you're listeningto this, I do not what he's just
blushing because he feelsconvicted.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
No, no, I feel very Strong, empowered, Strong about
it.
Yeah, yeah, what.
He's just blushing because hefeels convicted.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
No, no, I feel very Strong, empowered, strong about
it.
Yeah, yeah, really yeah,because I think the person knows
why I'm silent.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
I think they know I don't feel like I'm leaving them
confused at all.
Okay, yeah, like in whateversituation it is, if it's
something they're oblivious to,then I'll be like, hey, listen,
let's work on this or let's tryto do better.
No, and the situation is mebeing silent.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
They know what they've done.
Okay, so we've been here toomany times and that's why you go
silent.
Yeah, 100% Got it got it got itAll right, so we leave the
person guessing.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, let's leave Will outof this at this point.
Don't listen to his advice.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Agreed.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
I agree as well.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
He's very strong and empowered right now.
But listen, when we startedthis episode, I think I like
pride myself in being direct andclear and then, as we went
through that, I was like, ohshit, I have some of these
things that I do in stress, inshame, in like a case of the not
good enoughs.
I don't think it's often.
(29:30):
It's typically with the peopleI'm closest to.
I would never treat a strangerlike that.
So if some of these are comingup, recognize it, get clear.
It's typically, remember it's adefense.
What are you defending?
Just say that and I'll givewill some credit.
You get to decide.
Is it worth even addressing?
(29:52):
Is withholding it and taking itsomewhere?
Healthy val, you know thatmight be more valid.
There's your gold star, um,thank you but yeah, to me that's
what we do with it.
Get really clear now.
If you're on the other side, Imean, I want you to answer for
the professional side, but to me, if you're in relationship with
(30:13):
someone that's incrediblypassive, aggressive, that is a
couples therapy thing.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Well, I mean Gottman says sarcasm and condescension
and passive aggressive behaviorwithin a relationship is one of
the leading causes of divorce.
Yeah, what is he?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I think he is of the leading causes of divorce.
Yeah, what is he?
I think he has like the topfive or ten, yeah the top five.
But that's in there, but that is100% in.
There is sarcasm andpassive-aggressive behavior,
damage, damage, damage marriagesor long-term relationships.
Sometimes the partner doesn'teven know that they're doing it.
They might even be defensivearound that.
That's why I said couples,therapists, having the unbiased
(30:49):
third party.
I think is really vital foreveryone to feel safe and if you
have just a really amicablepartner who can hear it like,
knock it off.
And sometimes it might be likeI live with someone that's just
overly sarcastic and they thinkthey're being funny but it's
actually getting really hurtful.
Just have the conversation.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I will say this because I love sarcasm.
I like eat it up, but there is aplace it belongs sure sarcasm
is is playful when it's nothurtful and when there's enough
trust in the bank account ofthat relationship that you know,
they know I'm totally fuckingwith you, like if they don't
(31:29):
know that or and listen.
Sometimes even in those bankaccounts where you have all that
trust in the relationship, theycould just be having a bad week
or a bad day and you saysomething and they're like whoa,
that hurt me or whatever it'sthe whole like, yeah, I'm
messing with my family members,like we're all joking around
being sarcastic.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
and then someone yeah , I'm messing with my family
members, like we're all jokingaround and being sarcastic.
And then someone else says likeI'm sorry, what?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yes, you said what Exactly yeah?
Speaker 3 (31:52):
It's like no, no, no, we're like joking around, we're
siblings.
You can't say that.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah, we're a silly family and I think that's why we
did the microphone, because Ifeel like like a step too far in
the family and you have to rollout the fake microphone and say
that you're sorry, but I will.
So, like, from a professionalstandpoint, what I would tell
(32:16):
you and this is even somethingI'm sorting out, because this
just happened not too long agofor me, I think one consider the
source of where it came from.
So like, if this person, from aprofessional standpoint, is
someone that you're interactingwith all the time and this is a
persistent and consistentbehavior, then you might want to
sort that out.
Like think through a strategy,talk to a boss, a mentor or
(32:39):
somebody of like how do I handlethis?
This is something I'm comingagainst.
For me, this is a person I don'twork with all the time.
I don't report to them, so likethis is kind of like I'm being
curious about that, but I'm notgonna make that.
I'm not gonna let thisdeteriorate this entire
professional relationshipbecause I just had this really
shitty moment with this person.
(32:59):
I'm gonna watch it and then, ifit becomes a theme, I might
circle back to it and figure itout.
So like I say, err on the sideof grace in professional
settings, like let people have ashitty day.
You don't know what people aregoing through, especially you
don't work with them all day.
You don't know.
Did their dog die?
Is their grandma sick?
Is their child or two childrensick?
(33:19):
Like you, have no idea.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
I would even say that in family, like outside of
marriage, generationally, like Ithink that was pretty common,
like certainly somepassive-aggressive behaviors and
, um, I don't think likeconfronting your mom who's in
her 70s about it would be veryfruitful.
Like some of them like let thatshit go.
Yeah, you don't have to, youdon't have to address everything
(33:44):
again.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
What's your level of consumption with this person?
Good news for will you don'thave to address yeah, you don't.
What's your level ofconsumption?
Speaker 2 (33:47):
with this person.
Good news for Will you don'thave to address everything.
Yeah, you don't.
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
As you guys know, we're having our first ever yoga
retreat this weekend.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Yeah, this will come out.
Oh yeah, the day before, yeahthat's crazy.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
It's sold out, it's sold out.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
That's no surprise, and we just can't wait.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Should I FaceTime in?
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yes, Okay, to each person individually.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Okay, we'll go around the room Super weird.
Get some questions from themthat they can ask and I'll
answer.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
We're going to have a Q&A, campfire, a spotted or got
it.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
No joke, I would love it.
If they all have some kind ofweird question for me or
whatever.
I will answer everyone.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Do you hear that?
Speaker 3 (34:22):
What time is?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
this going to be All day, all day, and we're going to
do like a yeah, so it's like a9 to 10, until literally the
next day at night.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Well, let's make it evening-ish.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Okay, fine, we'll call you in the evening.
We got stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Hey, and, by the way, to finish, when I said like, oh
yeah, I do eventually like talkabout those things with
Danielle and Nick, I really ourlittle befores and afters oh, I
thought you meant you'd give usa silent treatment and I was
like I'm completely a boy.
No, no, I tell you guys moreabout the stuff that frustrates.
No, no, I vent to you guys.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
We'll take it.
That is so satisfying.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Off of the mic, obviously, duh.
Okay, actually, those are gonnaerase it bye y'all.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Well bye before you cut bangs.
Is hosted by laura, quick andclaire fearman, and produced by
will lock me, follow along withus everywhere.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Please subscribe to the podcast.
Find us on Instagram.
We're constantly doing polls.
We want to know what you think,and I know that you probably
know this, but reviewing us andgiving us five stars matters
more than anything, and we areso grateful to have you here,
thank you.
Welcome to, before you Cut Bangs.
I'm Laura Quick and I'm ClaireFehrman.
I am a professional storytellerand I'm currently working on my
first book.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I have worked in mental health for many years in
lots of capacities and this is areally important time to tell
you our big disclaimer this isnot therapy.
We are not your therapists orcoaches or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I mean you shouldn't really trust us very
much at all.
Unless you want to and it turnsout well, then you can trust us
.
That's great.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Okay, what is always worth the added expense, like
spending a little more moneyeven though normally you
wouldn't, even if you're frugal.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
That list is endless for me I was about to say I can
convince myself.
You know, I gave up shoppingfor Lent.
It's been terrifying.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
What does that mean?
You have to buy stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
No, I have.
If it is not an essential which, let me tell you how I can bend
that rule.
If it is an an essential which,let me tell you how I can bend
that rule.
If it is an essential, I don'tbuy it until April 20th.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Almost finished For me.
I mean, we've talked abouttravel recently.
I've said I can eat in a gasstation, but I will spare no
expense as far as where I'msleeping Hotels.
So to me accommodations forwhere I'm sleeping, I will pay
more.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, for sure, that's a great answer.
More simple, like paperproducts.
So like yes, toilet paper, eventhough I don't want to talk
about it, but like printingpaper, like I recently for our
trivia games that I host, orwhatever, like I give out answer
sheets to.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
You don't want it to be on crappy paper.
I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
But I bought crappy paper accidentally at like a
dollar store or whatever andpeople I felt it and was like oh
, that's crazy how thin this is.
And people talked about it alot, a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
You were getting hazed yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
I can't believe you don't want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I to talk about.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I can believe it, but toilet paper is absolutely the
same.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Like he kind of turned red even saying I was
gonna say, if I have to give ananswer, I would say bedding,
like sheets, really matter.
They change the, the nightsleep that you get, you know.
And if you're a woman, you haveto worry about my sheets giving
me wrinkles.
Sure, yeah, so that's what Iwould spare, no expense on.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Very nice.
What are we going to spare?
No expense talking about today.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Oh wait, there's a school bus coming oh.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Hello children, this is a Front Porch episode.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Guys, yeah, it's another Front Porch episode.
Which is what we do on FrontPorch we wave at the children,
or the child, in that case Onechild in that big bus, lonely
ride Singular child.
They've been out for an hour orso Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Maybe that child belongs to the bus driver.
Maybe, so, Okay, well, I had arecent experience that I thought
I would bring to the show.
I was in a meeting recently anda person who's not normally in
this meeting, that I haveregularly showed up we do not
necessarily report to thisperson and she came at us so
(03:14):
strong, very passive, aggressive, like passive aggressive AF,
and it was off putting.
And in a professional setting Iwas like whoa, it's just not
something that I deal with a ton.
Um, now, I have in historyhistorically definitely had some
clients like that, but man it,it really got me thinking like
(03:35):
well one.
It pissed me off and I didn'treally feel like I could.
I felt like it was trying toengage old Laura.
She wanted to come out and belike well, bitch, let me tell
you.
But instead I was like how manypeople have complained just out
of curiosity?
And none, as it turns out.
She was letting us know about ahypothetical problem that
(03:57):
didn't actually exist andseemingly pretending it was our
problem, but being like reallycondescending, very passive,
aggressive, super rude, and itwas just like an ick, right,
yeah, so gross.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Let's define passive aggressive, because because
here's the thing, Like when yousaid like came out hot and
whatever, when was passiveaggressive?
I think of passive aggressiveas kind of opposite of like
being stern and pointed and hotcoming out hot right.
Am I wrong?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
no yeah, you're not wrong.
I think it was very like.
Maybe I should reframe it.
She asked a question.
The question was can youexplain to me why you chose to?
That was?
It was a tone of like there wasno curiosity in the question,
it was extremely accusatory, andso I think of that as a very
(04:53):
passive-aggressive approach,especially in business, but
really in anything.
If you think about comingtoward even me as your friend,
if you were like, coming at mehot with a like, the tone of
your voice is already soaccusatory even in the question,
like I know the answer to thisand you were wrong and I'm
throwing it out there like that.
(05:14):
So that's why I saidpassive-aggressive.
Um, but am I wrong about?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
that.
No, I think there's differentforms, um, of being
passive-aggressive.
The what came to my mind wasmore what Will was talking about
.
It's this like subtle.
I feel like, for some reason,moms are coming to mind when
moms might be like well, I'msorry I offended you.
I guess I'm the worst motherever Like.
To me that's very like well,when it's almost this
(05:42):
victimization, I guess, of theself so like it's, I'm not mad,
but you're upset but then saysomething about the situation
that shows that you're mad whichis kind of like what she was
saying.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
She was asking a question, but it was clear in
her tone she was deeply offendedby the choices that had been
made around a strategy that shewas not involved in at all,
which wasn't my fault.
There was nothing I could doabout it.
I didn't have that choice tobring her in or not bring her in
.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, so passive aggressive could come out in
that sharper tone and kind ofaccusatory.
But passive aggressivebehaviors could be being silent
and ignoring somebody.
I mean, I think the core inbeing passive aggressive is a
complete lack of clarity, andthe other person is likely
(06:31):
sensing something's going on,but it's not clear what it is.
So the recipient is like whydoes this feel terrible?
Or you said icky, that'spassive aggressive, so it could
be louder or direct.
I say direct meaning like asharp question or something.
But she still didn't get to thepoint.
What were you about to do?
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I feel like this is gonna be the episode where I'm
like oh, I am very passive,aggressive we cracked him
finally after all this secrettherapy.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
He didn't know he was attending.
Well, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
From sitting here one reading over stuff and hearing
some of these examples.
It's because of my trying toavoid conflict.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Totally.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
That that all of a sudden makes me
passive-aggressive, even thoughI'm not trying to be.
But like the silent treatment,yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Say more.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Well, like, oh, what's wrong?
No, I'm fine, like.
That, apparently, is a examplebut, you're brooding, yeah, but
I'm real pissed because I don'twant to talk about it.
So I will like just avoid, andI don't think that I make snide
comments, I don't think thatplays but this whole like silent
(07:43):
treatment and like saying I'mfine when I'm not.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Because the person that probably knows you really
well has sent something enoughto say what's going on and
you're like nothing, I'm fine,and then they're probably left
being like, well, then, what thefuck is happening.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Or then you I think this happens to me too like a
lot, because Shane may be reallypissed off about something that
happened at work and in hismind he's like I just don't want
to rehash it or talk about it,and for me I start just because
of my attachment style.
I'm probably a little bit like.
So we're obviously fallingapart and it might not have
anything to do with me, butobviously it probably does.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Even though he was direct, like that wasn't passive
, aggressive right, so he couldsay, hey, I don't really want to
.
No, no, he doesn't ever say hedoesn't.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
He's not telling me like, hey, something really
shitty happened at work.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
He's just like, no, I'm good, but I'm like, well,
clearly he's not in this Form,if it's nonverbal, since we're
on, that is, I don't know whythis is coming into my head.
I'm like have I done this?
Probably Like angrily loadingthe dishwasher you know Slamming
(08:53):
a cabinet.
Doing something physical.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Will.
This is really resonating withWill.
Well, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Will already is oh no , like I don't want to call
anyone out.
Okay yeah, I don't want to callanyone out, okay yeah, but I
understand that you might knowsomeone, I might know someone
who.
That's the only way that I eversense any kind of like I'm
actually the most hardcorecleaner of all time.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
When I'm really mad, I'm going to start cleaning the
shit out of something.
You know, you know I'm madbecause I'm in that kitchen.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
I hate dishes, but I'll load the fuck out of the
dishwasher.
See that for me that's like I'min the best mood ever.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I'm gonna clean like crazy oh right, if I'm super
happy I clean.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Oh yeah, I'm super happy I've hired a cleaning lady
no, she's, that's indesperation and I'm like I'm
feeling low and really needsomebody to help me.
Um, so yeah, the aside fromsilent treatment is this more
like physical doing stuff.
I mean, there's stuff onInstagram all the time of like.
If you ask your husband to dosomething and if he hasn't done
(09:54):
it in 30 seconds, it's like,well, I'll just do it myself,
like.
To me, that's really passiveaggressive.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Very passive, aggressive.
Okay, so let's talk about wherethis comes from, like where did
?
If you are a person that maybestruggles with this
passive-aggressive behavior,whether you're loud or not, well
, go ahead.
Where did it come from?
Speaker 3 (10:12):
It comes from wanting to avoid conflict.
That's it.
So I don't want to talk aboutit, and so I'd rather give you
the silent treatment.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You know, you know, you know what's up it's so hard
for me to take off therapist hatand I'll just say the question.
I don't have to answer it.
I'm like who modeled that foryou?
What was confrontation like inyour home?
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Non-existent.
There wasn't much no, there was.
They were actually doingexactly what you did.
I mean, I'm sure there wasconflict, but it was a nice
house.
I mean't, there wasn't yelling,and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I don't mean like drug addiction, yeah, I just
mean your parents, which we didexperience.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
They had to rub each other in the wrong way, sure,
yeah, I just don't remember itlike I don't remember it being
something that stuck outgrandparents a little bit and
that definitely was like homersimpson back into the bushes,
like Like I just, for whateverreason, my entire life, like I
will just avoid I wanted to makemy teachers happy.
I wanted them to like me Likeall of it across the board.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Okay, so confrontation, fear of it, want
to be liked, and then eventuallywe know from this podcast our
emotions have to come outsomehow.
So, in the case of Will, he isgoing to not speak to you and
feel all of his feelings alone.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah sure .
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So, aside from conflict avoidant, it's,
sometimes people don't reallyeven know what they're feeling
or how to even say.
Let's use this client example.
Maybe she was scared aboutsomething.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I actually think now, because I've had like a couple
days and I've uncovered like newlayers of this particular
client, I think she feels superoverwhelmed and I think she
feels like very alone and howoverwhelmed, and so sometimes I
think we look for something tocontrol when we don't feel like
anything's in control.
And that can be where it camefrom.
(12:05):
It's like a power play, alittle bit of a like, a power
move, like and maybe again, notbecause of us she didn't feel
included in those conversationsand wanted to be, and that's why
it came out.
So I have, at first I waspissed and then I felt like a
ton of compassion around itbecause I'm like, damn, what
must be going on that I don'tknow about, because this person,
I think, is like wildly likedand like appreciated and highly
(12:29):
valued, and so you know, I haveto believe the mass majority is
probably right on this, and it'snot just like one interaction
she had with me, but I alsothink this behavior can be
modeled for you like.
I think I think you can grow upin a household where this was
like the norm and not yourscenario necessarily will.
But I definitely think when weget to the next segment, like
(12:50):
that part of the like spotted orgot it like that version of it,
I definitely think I grew up ina household where that they it
would almost be like theythought they were being funny,
but it was super passive.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I'm so glad you said that, because sarcasm can be
such a funny piece of humor.
It's highly passive, aggressive, and I'm sarcastic all the time
and so I don't think every timeI'm doing it.
It's like a defense mechanism.
But if you're responding inthis kind of rude tone with the,
with some sarcasm, that'sabsolutely a form of passive,
aggressive behavior.
(13:25):
So everything we've describedas a defense, let me say that
all again, everything we'vedescribed as a defense mechanism
.
So defense means I'm protectingsomething.
So if I'm feeling a need to bepassive aggressive, I don't
think most people are even awarethey're doing it.
By the way, now Will is sosounds like you have some amends
(13:47):
to make what an?
epiphany.
What a breakthrough.
Typically in a defense, I amprotecting something that is
touched on, something that Ilike about myself, and what I
mean by that is I think I'm mosthighly defensive if someone
brings up my children.
I think that would probably befairly common for most parents.
(14:08):
Of course, I would be highlydefensive.
Not only is that in my naturenow, it's biologically given to
me since I had these children,but a value of mine is that I'm
a good mother.
I hold it really tightly.
So if that gets touched on, adefense will come out for me.
So when I'm thinking aboutpassive, aggressive people, well
(14:30):
what is it that they'reprotecting?
So to me it's either this isthe only way I learned how to
manage this it was modeled orsomething feels so bad I don't
have my big boy words or biggirl words to to use, so I'm
going to be shitty, sarcastic,silent, slam some cabinets
(14:50):
aggressively, load thedishwasher or say I'm fine,
you've made this up in your head.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, and I think like that feels very like the
teenage version of yourself isshowing up, right.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Y'all know I love that.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Like that girl that just went through puberty and
she's like get out of my face,I'm fine.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
It's so funny because you're not reading anything,
Claire or Laura here, but I haveall of this in front of me.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Are we right?
Oh yeah, it's exactly right,yes.
Like I'm fine, all of myeducation.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
It's fine.
I'm fine If you say so.
Yeah, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah Well, yeah, it's fine.
Yeah well, this is lifeexperience.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well, you can't make this shit up.
Um okay, what about spotted?
Or got it explain?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
what spotted or got it is.
Well, we're gonna read out somescenarios and then we're gonna
guess if these are passive,aggressive or they're just
awkward hmm, it's a little gamehere.
Okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
All right, it's me versus Claire.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
All right, ready.
Yeah Must be nice.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
What that's passive, aggressive.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, okay, I hated that.
Okay, no worries if not.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
No worries if not.
Oh, I say it all the time.
I refuse to say it's passiveaggressive Gosh.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
I don't think that would be.
I don't think it is either.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
by the way, I really mean it, and if I'm worried,
that's my own fucking fault,because I said it, you know, and
I am consistently worried.
She's probably definitelyworried, Like it is totally fine
that we do it this way and thenthat's for me to work out.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
But I'm not mad at you about it, right Okay, I just
think it's funny how oh yeah,it's passive-aggressive yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I can tell I have these visceral responses to the
ones that are passive, it'sgoing to be an easy game.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Oh, you finally decided to answer your phone.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah, that's passive-aggressive.
I mean it seems just aggressive, but I think it's gonna fit in
passive, aggressive and and rudelevel.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
spicy for sure, definitely spicy.
Yeah, it could be playful butcould be totally loaded.
Because I will say, if you'remy best friend, first of all,
when I call shelly, if she hasher children or I don't talk to
her, and so when she finally,first of all when she re-emerges
and those children are not withwith her anymore, she will call
me four times a day and she'llbe like I guess our friendship
(17:11):
is falling apart now and I'mlike bitch, a whole week and you
didn't talk to me at all and Idon't answer my call because I
am working.
I am not not talking to you.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
How many kids does she have?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
So 25, five.
Really it feels like 25, thoughFive, five as a single mom,
five as a single mom.
She gets a pass every week andI bust her ass too.
Okay, I mean, I guess we'lljust do whatever you want, not
what.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
That's passive aggressive.
That's very passive.
That's very what are youtalking about?
That's incredibly passiveaggressive.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Claire just admitted how passive, aggressive she is.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
I just won.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Okay, I think I heard it differently because I think
I'm a little accommodatingsometimes, so I would totally be
like yeah, we can do whateveryou want and I mean it okay.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
No, I do mean it like on vacation.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
We've talked about this I have a couple of friends
who really like, are they?
Particular, and I'm like thisway, I'm down for whatever, oh
yeah, the way she said itdefinitely was
passive-aggressive okay, that'sfine, I'm just picturing.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I went on this girl's trip to Charleston a few
weekends ago.
It was magical and I told themin the most direct way I want to
plan nothing, I will show up.
I don't care what we eat, Idon't care what we drink, and I
truly meant it.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Wow, which is a big feels like a real yoga Claire
thing to do.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
That's me too.
We talked about this onvacations.
That's how I am.
It is so soothing.
She likes to be in control.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
I do, but I was so tired and I really meant it.
So if they were like what doyou want to do?
I'm like whatever y'all wantand I'm great with it.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I love that Okay so that's a different tone.
I think a tone would to do withit.
Yeah, the way Laura said it wasvery past figure.
What?
Speaker 1 (18:48):
about texting K period.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Look, here's the thing Generational issue.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Yeah, so I have the guy that I work with.
He can't stand when peoplerespond to a text with cool.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
What.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
And I respond to almost every text to him as that
.
And I was like oh, I was likewell, dude, I got this on the
air.
I was like look, I was like, oh, I was like well, dude, I got
it on the air.
I was like look at our time.
I was like every response tohim is because I'm saying, okay,
like that's okay.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, cool, I agree with that.
Yeah, that's good.
You should switch it to coolbeans or yep he hates.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yep too.
Anyway, which are the things Irespond with?
Cool and yep.
Well, I was like a lot of timesI'm like on a run or something
and on my watch I can just likedink hit it and that's what it
sends.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
But, whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
But the point is people think that's very K or
yep, or cool or whatever it'svery passive, aggressive.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I think that's just like such a a dude thing, like
now I don't need to write asentence to tell you I agree
like I'm never offended if, ifshane's, if shane's like, okay,
like I'm like, or even like mybrother, like I don't, I'm not
like wow dick.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Like it's an affirmative response it's an
affirmative response.
Well, I'm saying like yep orcool.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I think k is probably the same thing, I don't know k
period is aggressive, like youtyped a k and then a period.
That's like a hole.
You had to switch keyboards.
I do think this is generational.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
No, you just double.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
You're just like ending the sentence and then it
automatically puts up when bobbyand I have to purposely not put
periods because it just oh yeahoh really, no, I don't need
help, I'll just stay up allnight finishing it.
I mean obviously passive,aggressive, okay, guilt-tripping
cross.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Oh God.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I think I might do some of that.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
When would you say that, unless you just actually
wanted to stay up all night?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I mean I literally go to bed at 8.30 or 9.
I don't mean it like that.
I mean I'll be like I will sayI've got it and I don't got it.
But I think sometimes in likemarriage or with my parents,
I'll be like no worries, I'vegot it.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
But then you finish the sentence and you say I'll
just I'll work the rest of theweek to get this over the finish
line.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I think that's very aggressive.
When you add that I think eventhe no it it's cool, I've got it
, or no worries?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I think no.
I think that's passiveaggressive.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
I think you saying it depends again on the situation
or the tone tone but saying likeno worries, I've got it, can be
passive.
Aggressive I think when you addI'll just stay up all night and
do it.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
What a twat to say that.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Okay, this has actually happened to me.
My sister's ex-husband once Ivisited them and he clearly
hated me like legitimately hatedme.
He gave me a book once, andthis is like 12 or 13, maybe 15
years ago.
He was like, hey, and listen,they also have this on audiobook
(21:50):
so you could even read it.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
That was sweet I would take that as a compliment,
even though I know it'sprobably passive-aggressive or
whatever.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
I was literally like you don't think I read like then
.
Then I was like I don't readthat much.
Yeah, I mean it's back then nowI read 50 books a I mean a year
.
I love reading, but likereading or audiobooks.
I'd say half and half.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah, because my brother and Danielle have this
crazy list of hundreds ofwhatever books a year, but some
of those are audiobooks and theystill count that.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I do half and half For the record.
Unrelated to passive aggressivebehaviors, audiobooks count.
I don't like it when people saythat they don't.
I agree with that.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Some people say they don't, it's still consumption.
It's still consumption.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
And you're still learning.
Okay, venmo request.
That says $4.75 for the coffeeyou said you'd get me back for
that's just aggressive.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
That's just aggressive.
I think maybe just sending therequest for it without saying
anything would be passive.
Aggressive possibly, yes, butsaying the thing you were
supposed to pay me for blah blah, that's just aggressive.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, these are teetering on just straight up
aggression.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I'm thinking like these are pretty aggressive yeah
if you do that, no one likesyou.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
No, nobody in your life likes you, no, like nobody
in your life likes you, yourfriends.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
I hate to say that your kids don't like it.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
I kind of feel like what we just learned is because,
like I will say, I definitelyam the girl who's angry cleans
in the kitchen if I'm reallypissed off about something,
which I'm sure ispassive-aggressive, because I'm
saying nothing but my body istelling you.
So, like the passive side is,I'm not saying anything but the
way I'm moving around our houseis so aggressive that clearly
(23:34):
I'm not well and so, like I lovethat the spotted or got it is
not just like the ick you wouldget if it was happening to you,
but also like the epiphany ofjust like Will being, like I do
that and you saying I think I dothat.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Was that the end of spotted?
Or got it.
That's just the end of it.
I think I do that.
Was that the end of Spotted orNot it?
That's just the end of it, itwas a fun game.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
I enjoyed it I almost feel like we need a game every
time now.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
All right.
So what do we do to move out ofpassive aggressive and into
clear as fuck?
Like how can we get?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
clear and kind.
You know who's about to startis this guy?
Yeah, I'll just go ahead andtell you what are you going to?
Do?
I'm not changing it.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I'm not changing it Because I'm fine with it.
It's a very peaceful way to go.
Where's Danielle?
She's resting or working out orsomething.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
No, I feel like we need to get her out of here.
Oh yeah, no, she's not.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
But honestly, here's the thing.
I don't like to argue.
I want to avoid conflict.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And so if something's bothering me, I would rather
just stay silent about it.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
And then but where does it go?
Oh I don't know.
Eventually my brain's gonnalike explode out of the side of
my head or something, it doesn'tbother like I can just think
about it and then eventuallytalk to danielle about it okay,
so you do, you do eventuallytalk about it some stuff, yeah,
but some stuff also.
I'm just like doesn't matterI'll talk to to Nick about it
some, so you do put it somewhere.
And you exercise a lot which.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I think is a good release.
I want to just shift somethingin your head.
If you're upset in your mind,that will turn into an argument
if you express it, which isinteresting because it's almost
like you just don't want thedistressing feeling out there
because it could turn intoarguing.
(25:13):
I hate arguing.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
But I can still be direct.
I just won't do it.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think and I'm onlyreferencing this with people in
my life that I know are going toargue if I say to them what's
bothering me.
That's good adulthood and sotherefore, I'm just going to
like, just move on.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
So you have to weigh out if it's worth the potential
risk or if this person ishealthy enough to just hear.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Obviously I'm not talking about with Danielle.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
We talk about stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Like that's an easy cover.
You're not in trouble right now.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Yeah, if something bothers her or me, we're gonna
say it right, right, this cameup.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You have a really good the.
What do we do with it?
Um, about confusing versusclarity.
I won't spoil that story orthat like sentence in your
company oh, oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
So, um, I hired a co like two and a half years ago
and I asked her for the first 90days, you know, chief operating
officer.
We'd never really been bigenough to have somebody like
that that could kind of like runsupport for just really taking
care of our people.
And for the first 90 days Iasked her to do nothing but
listen and learn and askquestions, that's it.
I was like I don't want you tochange anything, fix anything, I
just want you to like justlisten and ask questions, that's
(26:27):
it.
I was like I don't want you tochange anything, fix anything, I
just want you to like justlisten, ask questions.
So after 90 days I went to herand was like so what have you
been learning?
Like what do you know about ourcompany?
And she was like, well, goodgrit has a catchphrase.
And I was like, oh my god, whatis it good news?
Speaker 3 (26:46):
and she was like no.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
And I was like expect good things are tagline.
And she was like no.
And I was like I expect goodthings are tagline.
And she was like no.
And I was like and she was likeI'm confused.
And I was like what were youconfused about it?
She's like no, that's yourcatchphrase.
And I was like what do you mean?
And she was like and thenimmediately I felt so convicted
(27:07):
because what will happen is I'mnot in the grind of every day
and so sometimes I will comeinto a strategy meeting where
people have been working reallyhard on something, and I will.
I would have said something likehey guys, maybe I'm confused
here.
Okay, so this catchphrase camefrom directly from me.
I said I'm confused all thetime and like in a, she called
(27:31):
it blessing their hearts todeath.
She was like what happens isy'all bless each other's hearts.
And you'll be like maybe I'mconfused.
I think maybe we're confused.
She was like the bad news is ithas transferred into client
conversations.
So now you're showing up toclients and you're saying you
know?
I was like oh my, why did youwait 90 days to tell me?
This is terrible?
And so she eradicated using theword confused.
(27:54):
In our culture.
We cannot say it.
We are only allowed to say I'mseeking more clarity.
I think I need some clarity.
I'd like to have a meeting toestablish what the KPIs for this
are so like.
Anyways, that was the anecdote.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, what made me think of that was passive,
aggressive behaviors, includingwords, give no clarity and leave
the other person guessing whatis going on.
So to me, if you're listeningto this, I do not what he's just
blushing because he feelsconvicted.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
No, no, I feel very Strong, empowered, Strong about
it.
Yeah, yeah, what.
He's just blushing because hefeels convicted.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
No, no, I feel very Strong, empowered, strong about
it.
Yeah, yeah, really yeah,because I think the person knows
why I'm silent.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
I think they know I don't feel like I'm leaving them
confused at all.
Okay, yeah, like in whateversituation it is, if it's
something they're oblivious to,then I'll be like, hey, listen,
let's work on this or let's tryto do better.
No, and the situation is mebeing silent.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
They know what they've done.
Okay, so we've been here toomany times and that's why you go
silent.
Yeah, 100% Got it got it got itAll right, so we leave the
person guessing.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, let's leave Will outof this at this point.
Don't listen to his advice.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Agreed.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
I agree as well.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
He's very strong and empowered right now.
But listen, when we startedthis episode, I think I like
pride myself in being direct andclear and then, as we went
through that, I was like, ohshit, I have some of these
things that I do in stress, inshame, in like a case of the not
good enoughs.
I don't think it's often.
(29:30):
It's typically with the peopleI'm closest to.
I would never treat a strangerlike that.
So if some of these are comingup, recognize it, get clear.
It's typically, remember it's adefense.
What are you defending?
Just say that and I'll givewill some credit.
You get to decide.
Is it worth even addressing?
(29:52):
Is withholding it and taking itsomewhere?
Healthy val, you know thatmight be more valid.
There's your gold star, um,thank you but yeah, to me that's
what we do with it.
Get really clear now.
If you're on the other side, Imean, I want you to answer for
the professional side, but to me, if you're in relationship with
(30:13):
someone that's incrediblypassive, aggressive, that is a
couples therapy thing.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Well, I mean Gottman says sarcasm and condescension
and passive aggressive behaviorwithin a relationship is one of
the leading causes of divorce.
Yeah, what is he?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I think he is of the leading causes of divorce.
Yeah, what is he?
I think he has like the topfive or ten, yeah the top five.
But that's in there, but that is100% in.
There is sarcasm andpassive-aggressive behavior,
damage, damage, damage marriagesor long-term relationships.
Sometimes the partner doesn'teven know that they're doing it.
They might even be defensivearound that.
That's why I said couples,therapists, having the unbiased
(30:49):
third party.
I think is really vital foreveryone to feel safe and if you
have just a really amicablepartner who can hear it like,
knock it off.
And sometimes it might be likeI live with someone that's just
overly sarcastic and they thinkthey're being funny but it's
actually getting really hurtful.
Just have the conversation.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I will say this because I love sarcasm.
I like eat it up, but there is aplace it belongs sure sarcasm
is is playful when it's nothurtful and when there's enough
trust in the bank account ofthat relationship that you know,
they know I'm totally fuckingwith you, like if they don't
(31:29):
know that or and listen.
Sometimes even in those bankaccounts where you have all that
trust in the relationship, theycould just be having a bad week
or a bad day and you saysomething and they're like whoa,
that hurt me or whatever it'sthe whole like, yeah, I'm
messing with my family members,like we're all joking around
being sarcastic.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
and then someone yeah , I'm messing with my family
members, like we're all jokingaround and being sarcastic.
And then someone else says likeI'm sorry, what?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yes, you said what Exactly yeah?
Speaker 3 (31:52):
It's like no, no, no, we're like joking around, we're
siblings.
You can't say that.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah, we're a silly family and I think that's why we
did the microphone, because Ifeel like like a step too far in
the family and you have to rollout the fake microphone and say
that you're sorry, but I will.
So, like, from a professionalstandpoint, what I would tell
(32:16):
you and this is even somethingI'm sorting out, because this
just happened not too long agofor me, I think one consider the
source of where it came from.
So like, if this person, from aprofessional standpoint, is
someone that you're interactingwith all the time and this is a
persistent and consistentbehavior, then you might want to
sort that out.
Like think through a strategy,talk to a boss, a mentor or
(32:39):
somebody of like how do I handlethis?
This is something I'm comingagainst.
For me, this is a person I don'twork with all the time.
I don't report to them, so likethis is kind of like I'm being
curious about that, but I'm notgonna make that.
I'm not gonna let thisdeteriorate this entire
professional relationshipbecause I just had this really
shitty moment with this person.
(32:59):
I'm gonna watch it and then, ifit becomes a theme, I might
circle back to it and figure itout.
So like I say, err on the sideof grace in professional
settings, like let people have ashitty day.
You don't know what people aregoing through, especially you
don't work with them all day.
You don't know.
Did their dog die?
Is their grandma sick?
Is their child or two childrensick?
(33:19):
Like you, have no idea.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
I would even say that in family, like outside of
marriage, generationally, like Ithink that was pretty common,
like certainly somepassive-aggressive behaviors and
, um, I don't think likeconfronting your mom who's in
her 70s about it would be veryfruitful.
Like some of them like let thatshit go.
Yeah, you don't have to, youdon't have to address everything
(33:44):
again.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
What's your level of consumption with this person?
Good news for will you don'thave to address yeah, you don't.
What's your level ofconsumption?
Speaker 2 (33:47):
with this person.
Good news for Will you don'thave to address everything.
Yeah, you don't.
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
As you guys know, we're having our first ever yoga
retreat this weekend.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Yeah, this will come out.
Oh yeah, the day before, yeahthat's crazy.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
It's sold out, it's sold out.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
That's no surprise, and we just can't wait.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Should I FaceTime in?
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yes, Okay, to each person individually.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Okay, we'll go around the room Super weird.
Get some questions from themthat they can ask and I'll
answer.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
We're going to have a Q&A, campfire, a spotted or got
it.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
No joke, I would love it.
If they all have some kind ofweird question for me or
whatever.
I will answer everyone.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Do you hear that?
Speaker 3 (34:22):
What time is?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
this going to be All day, all day, and we're going to
do like a yeah, so it's like a9 to 10, until literally the
next day at night.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Well, let's make it evening-ish.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Okay, fine, we'll call you in the evening.
We got stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Hey, and, by the way, to finish, when I said like, oh
yeah, I do eventually like talkabout those things with
Danielle and Nick, I really ourlittle befores and afters oh, I
thought you meant you'd give usa silent treatment and I was
like I'm completely a boy.
No, no, I tell you guys moreabout the stuff that frustrates.
No, no, I vent to you guys.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
We'll take it.
That is so satisfying.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Off of the mic, obviously, duh.
Okay, actually, those are gonnaerase it bye y'all.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Well bye before you cut bangs.
Is hosted by laura, quick andclaire fearman, and produced by
will lock me, follow along withus everywhere.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Please subscribe to the podcast.
Find us on Instagram.
We're constantly doing polls.
We want to know what you think,and I know that you probably
know this, but reviewing us andgiving us five stars matters
more than anything, and we areso grateful to have you here,
thank you.
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