November 15, 2024 • 45 mins
We're all fascinated with true crime and documentaries in general, but why? Filmmaker Matthew Galkin joins us for a fascinating conversation about the incredible influence of documentaries, highlighting how they transform perspectives and ignite important discussions.
Matthew opens up about his shift into the true crime genre, a transition he never anticipated but found fascinating due to the genre's combination of mystery, voyeurism, and the pursuit of justice.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to, before you Cut Bangs.
I'm Laura Quick and I'm ClaireFehrman.
I am a professional storytellerand I'm currently working on my
first book.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I have worked in mental health for many years in
lots of capacities and this is areally important time to tell
you our big disclaimer this isnot therapy.
We are not your therapists orcoaches or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I mean you shouldn't really trust us very
much at all.
Unless you want to and it turnsout well, then you can trust us
.
That's great.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
We're recording this on my front porch.
It's a new front porch, soapologies that it's not painted
or stained.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Oh my God, stop being weird about it.
I know, I'm just sayingDisclaimer.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Yeah, but either way also, this means like you're
going to hear birds and you'regoing to hear neighbors walking
by and coming up on the porch orwhatever.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
It's just we're going to do this every now and then A
little neighborhood show right,I love it Right.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I'm into it, all right.
So here's the deal.
I'm looking really forward tothis one, because we have
matthew gawkin here, who is adocumentarian, and claire, and
we've talked about this laura,we've talked about this a little
bit, but, like, documentariesare my thing oh, you and shane,
quick, good lord yeah reallyexcited about this and so I want
to start off.
matthew, first, thanks for likehanging with us, but also like
we do an opening question and wekind of go around the room and
(01:27):
we can start with me.
Porch, also I'm nervous thatI've set you guys up on a swing.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
We love it.
It's great.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Swinging right around those mics.
Yeah, it'll be good though.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I've engaged my core.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
You got it, you got it.
So the question today, to startthe episode, is what's your
favorite documentary?
And, like I, probably this is atough one because I have to go
through a lot, but one kind ofcame to my mind initially, which
was Paradise Lost, the WestMemphis three documentary series
really, but that was one of thefirst I really got into and
(01:58):
it's been such like an actualgame changer and I think in my
life even now, like some of thenonprofits that I work with and
about justice and whatever.
I think a lot of that stemmedfrom Paradise Lost.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
So Matthew, hi, hey, what's up?
It's great to be here.
Thank you, um, what can I askyou?
Why Paradise Lost?
What about it?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Yeah, it was just so impactful, I think.
Uh, initially I was young,youngish, you know, probably 19,
20 or something when I firstsaw it.
And I think for most people,like when you hear like oh,
somebody confessed to something,it's like, OK, well, yeah, why
would anyone ever confess tosomething that they didn't do?
And that was my first everexample of like oh, here's why
(02:41):
people will confess to somethingthey didn't do.
I don't know, I think you justgrow up unless you're exposed to
it, thinking well, if someonewent through a trial and is in
prison, of course they did it,like they did it.
And that was the first like eyeopening thing of like or not.
And then, of course, we've seenyou know how prolific that is
(03:02):
throughout the country.
But that was the first thingfor me that was kind of eye
opening and also like it wasjust something you could follow
for years I mean like 20 yearskind of followed that story.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, that's like one of the OG true crime films.
I mean, I love that film Funny,you bring that up.
Not necessarily my favoritedocumentary, but the very first
documentary that made me want tomake documentaries is a film
called Brothers Keeper.
I don't know if you've everseen it.
It's the same director asParadise Lost.
It's his first.
It was a guy named JoeBerlinger and he had a
(03:33):
filmmaking partner named BruceZanofsky and those two made this
incredibly compelling filmabout five inbred brothers in
deep upstate New York.
They all lived in a one roomshack together their entire
lives.
They were in their 60s, I wantto say, and one of them dies and
(03:55):
another one of them is accusedof his murder and it becomes a
murder trial with the.
I mean I'm probably not doingit justice.
It's an incredibly compellingfilm.
It was the first one I went toa movie theater not knowing
anything about it.
I was in film school at thetime studying to be like a
scripted filmmaker.
I wanted to be a director andthat just completely spun my
(04:16):
head around.
About documentaries, favoritedocumentary probably is a film
called Give Me Shelter.
Have you ever seen that?
It's about the Rolling Stones.
Sure, it is specifically aboutthe Rolling Stones playing a
concert at the Altamont Speedway100%.
So have you guys ever seen thisfilm?
Yeah, incredible, incredible Abecause the music is amazing and
(04:36):
there's.
You know they were on tour withTina Turner, so there's just
like incredible footage of themin concert and that was like
peak rolling stones, um.
But the most amazing thingabout it is these famous
documentarians named the mazelbrothers.
Mazel's brothers captured therolling stones were playing a
free concert at the altamontspeedway, which is in california
(04:58):
, at the end of the summer.
Basically, the woodstockstarted that summer and Altamont
was like the bookend.
It ended that summer andWoodstock was all you know love
and hugs.
Altamont ultimately became likeyou could see the summer of
love end and all of the darknesskind of rolled in.
Because they captured on filmsomeone getting stabbed to death
(05:20):
, like right in front of thestage, like total, like crazy
lightning in a bottle moment.
Like in right in front of thestage, like total, like crazy
lightning in a bottle moment.
The Rolling Stones then likebecome kind of detectives,
filmmakers.
They're starting to figure outwhat happened, but it's like
like literally on film, theycaptured the moment that like
the Summer of Love ended and forme that is like the essence of
(05:40):
why I make documentaries.
It's like to find these thingsyou're never supposed to capture
on film.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
And no spoilers, but the Hells Angels were.
I can't remember this, though.
Were they hired by the RollingStones to be security, or did
the promoter hire them?
But either way, the HellsAngels were the security, which
is what started all of them.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
That's pretty gangster.
I'm just thinking.
My husband's literally in themusic business and does huge
festivals, so, like I mean,hundreds of thousands of people
come to his festivals every year.
And I'm thinking about theHells Angels being security and
how crazy that would be.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
And because they hated the hippies.
It was just like it was justinstant tension and there was
just darkness.
Yeah, it was fascinating, Idon't know the Central Park five
.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
for me, I mean, it was really heavy but really
necessary.
It's like such an eye openingthe same thing Will was talking
about just like seeing how ithappens, like not knowing but
almost feeling like a curtainwas pulled back and going like,
oh my God, this is sodevastating for me as a mother
(06:44):
to watch that back and goinglike, oh my God, this is so
devastating for me as a motherto watch that.
For me as like a human, tounderstand that I really have no
idea what that would be likebut to feel so much empathy and
the pain and the like riding thewave.
It was just heavy andenlightening and I feel like it
changed the world and how theworld.
Because it went so mainstream.
It felt really good that somany people had access to hear
(07:06):
that story.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
And it's a story that people maybe thought they knew
but didn't know at all.
Right, it's like you've heardof the Central.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Park Five yes.
I mean because I live in NewYork, but like it's yeah To see
an authentic narrative around,like really what happened, like
whoa, these were little babies,I mean I can't, I couldn't even
and like on the ava front, like13th as well, it's also just
(07:34):
yeah insane, yeah clear um, soI'll go old and new, so for sure
the last waltz that was.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I can remember watching that with my dad and
having this moment of like oh,like this is this is it for me.
And then music has impacted mywhole life with my family, like
that's how my dad, if somethingbad happened or good or whatever
he's like, well, this is thesong that goes with it.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
So that's such a therapy family thing that has
ever been said in the history offamilies.
Go on, I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
I mean he read me Bob Dylan's Forever.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Young, when I was 14.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And.
I was like you know.
And then, when I drove mylittle Subaru to Colorado, oh my
God, of course you had a Subaru.
I opened my glove box and itwas the music and the lyrics to
Truckin' by the Grateful Deadand it said read this on the way
to Colorado, and on the back itwas.
And then, when you decide tocome home, read this and it was
(08:34):
the last part.
So sweet, I won't sing it foryou.
And then recently I watchedWill and Harper.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Yeah, I finished that two nights ago.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I haven't seen it yet .
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It should be appointment viewing it got me
good oh yeah it got me good andI know spoilers.
Every human should be requiredto watch it, no doubt.
Okay, good question.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I didn't see it coming, honestly so we're as, as
you mentioned will.
We're talking about ourobsession with true crime.
We've got documentaries.
We talked about that.
We talked about podcasts, wetalked about movies.
We talked about culture and howwe're obsessed with them.
And really what I love aboutClaire the most is that Claire's
always got a guy for that.
Literally, Claire's got a guyfor everything.
(09:18):
You need Botox she's got a guyfor that.
You need some sort of B12 shotshe's got a guy for that.
You need.
You need some sort of B-12 shotshe's got a guy for that.
And, of course, we want to knowabout obsessions with true
crime.
She's like I got a guy for that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
So tell us about your guy.
I do get Botox and lip fillerin a man's home His name is Dr
Carl and he's not fucking around.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Has he been on the podcast?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
We are going to have him on after the Halloween
costume.
I think it's time, but we can'tshare it.
But go on.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Well, I do have a guy or gal for most things.
This was wild and Matthewcontacted me and asked me to
work on a documentary with himor be a part of it, and I was
incredibly hesitant and this isgoing to be so vague for y'all
listening and I'm sorry, butwhen I can talk about it, I'll
talk about it.
So when Matthew asked to chatwith me, he asked if we could
(10:09):
get coffee, which was reallynice, and we're going to be
talking about some reallyvulnerable things, which is
laughable for what I'vedisclosed on this podcast, but
they're usually pretty funny orembarrassing or humiliating.
But this was like a heart andsoul project and we sat down for
(10:29):
coffee and talked for a reallylong time and I trusted him.
He asked the right questions andwe connected and then I asked
him to do a favor for me BecauseI had some questions.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Because he makes incredible documentaries about
stuff that we really want totalk about.
Like dude, we could go forhours about jack of work in,
right, I mean like that alone,but also just like a lot of kind
of you know on that verge oflike crime or not, happy
subjects, right, stuff is toughto dive into, which is what we
(11:03):
want to dive into okay, so stateof the union.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Matthew, who are you?
Speaker 4 (11:09):
um, I am a I'd like to say new york-based filmmaker,
but I actually live in newjersey's, which sounds much
lamer no, that's totally stillcool you're in alabama right now
calm down there's like acoolness to Alabama that Jersey
will never have.
All right.
I have been directingdocumentaries for about 20 some
(11:30):
odd years now and have made allsorts of projects Like.
My first film was about thePixies Huge fan, awesome,
they're great.
Huge fan, awesome, so great.
I made a film about PETA, theanimal rights group, and the
woman that founded it.
Her name is Ingrid Newkirk.
(11:50):
That was for HBO.
And then I made another HBOfilm about Jack Vorkian.
As Will said, I was MorganSpurlock's producing partner.
Do you know him?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I don't, he made Supersize Me, yeah, passed away
this last year and he died ofcancer this past year.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Um, I was his partner until 2017 and then I left
company and started my owncompany.
Okay, um, I had no interest inlike crime as a genre.
Really it wasn't like.
I don.
Even now I don't think of themas like crime projects.
It just so happens that thatbecame quite popular, like, I
(12:31):
mean, crime has always beenpopular, but like there has been
really since Netflix came alongand a lot of the streamers
started, you know, expanding thepipeline of projects.
Tons of crime.
Crime has just just likeflooded television, obviously
flooded podcasts.
So I haven't done a ton ofcrime but the you know I think
(12:54):
maybe for the last six years orso it's, it's been primarily
what I've been focused ondirecting so why are people
obsessed with?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
what do you think the obsession is?
Speaker 4 (13:05):
with crime.
Yeah of an age-old narrativetrope.
(13:26):
People like to, people likemysteries, they like a nice tidy
ending, they like a conclusion.
Beginnings, middles, ends,twists and turns, I mean that's
sort of the underpinnings ofmost movies and television shows
.
I think there's a there's asort of voyeuristic draw in the
idea of like watching you'resort of it's participatory and
(13:47):
voyeuristic in the sense thatyou're watching someone or
something terrible happen.
You're in the safety of yourliving room with a bowl of
popcorn, but like you can kindof live out this thrilling like
holy shit, asshole clenched.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
I'm not.
Not, by the way.
I'm the girl who literallywould be like sorry, I can't do
this unless there's lots ofpeople and everyone's sleeping
in my bed tonight.
Okay, I can't, I'm too scared.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
True crime stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Even true crime.
I can't do it by myself, I'vegot to have a group.
It's a group project.
Guys, go on, don't watch themenendez press.
Oh, I've literally yes, myhusband's been watching it.
I'm like, okay, I'll be insidereading of something that's like
half true, that series that'sout.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Now you're talking about the, the scripted one
that's the scripted one.
Yeah, yeah because that's likea dramatization of yeah yeah,
but it is tough.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It's tough to watch.
So it's solving the mystery.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
It's voyeurism yeah, I mean, I think that there's,
there is a, there's a real pullin, like the having the distance
but also like feelingparticipatory at the same time,
like it's not your life and youcan kind of place yourself in
that position, whether it's likethe main character is a
(15:07):
detective or if the maincharacter is like a you know, a
grieved widow trying to figureout who killed her husband.
You can.
It's like playing along at home, to like in the darkest, most
macabre kind of way.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
The group watching session settings always have
somebody who's vocal I'm alwayslike no, why you know better.
Why are you this way?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
People love that dopamine hit too, of like, and
then it's like I can wash myface and put my night cream on
and go to bed and come down fromit.
I think you can totallydissociate when you're watching
some any documentary, I thinkyou can, but then true crime,
you're just like out of your ownstuff.
Well, I'm gonna save myquestion around it, but yeah,
(15:54):
that's my other perspective andI watched the most disgusting,
dark, fucked up stuff and youthink, bobby, you think
something's wrong with me Idon't.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I am like pollyanna all the way.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Unless it can happen to me, then I can't do it.
But if someone's shooting theirmom because they were an
asshole, I'm like I'm for sureI'm not gonna do that and I'm a
really nice.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
I'm nervous.
It's a slippery slope.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Anything could take me backwards where do we feel
like dateline falls in this?
I'm scared of that shit toobecause it's my like yard work
podcast okay, I mean, I think Iwas on it you're on, you're on
daylight, I think totally if
Speaker 1 (16:34):
you really google claire that would make sense.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
But I mean, that's my kind of go-to, like if I'm
gonna do a long project for anhour or two, whatever, like
that's a good go to podcast.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Yeah, and because they're.
They're all tidy like it's itis.
They fit in that space.
They don't leave anythingunresolved.
They pick cases that areadjudicated.
So they're like are you know?
They know who's you know who'sthe bad bad guy is?
There's also that element oftrue crime that I think people
are drawn to, which is they wantto see bad guys go away.
(17:09):
So the idea that you're goingto catch the perpetrator and
there's justice at the end, Ithink is quite appealing for
most people, which was thejustice.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah, it brings me to my question I want to ask, like
have you ever taken on aproject where you didn't know
the resolution?
No, Like where you were goingto figure it out throughout the
process.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Yes, I have a couple.
I did a series.
I did two series for Showtime,sort of back to back.
One is called Murder in theBayou and the other is called
Murder in Bighorn.
Neither have actual closedendings.
Murder in the Bayou is abouteight women in a small town in
(17:49):
in louisiana who were allmurdered.
They all knew each other.
The cases were neverinvestigated and never solved.
Ultimately it became clear thatthese eight women were
informants for crooked police inthe small town.
So as a five-hour series forShowtime where we sort of
(18:09):
uncover this whole thing, thereis no closure.
No one has ever been, and whenI say closure, I mean no one has
been arrested or convicted ofany of these cases.
We make it very clear like whodid it?
It's very clear.
We have documented proof.
These people just weren't everarrested, which is a little
dicey to make, I mean legally,but also because we were
(18:32):
shooting the series did you everfeel unsafe?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
yes I was gonna say like that feels sketch, I'm
definitely I would not be onthat team you have to zoom me in
bro zoom me absentee Absentee.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Absentee producer.
Absentee producer Y'all aregoing to be great.
You haven't invited me yet, butjust in case you were thinking
of it, I'm probably not going tobe able to come Crooked yeah,
so there were.
There were crooked cops thatwere on the force they're still
on the force and we were like inthis tiny little town there was
a maybe serial killer, a maybeserial killer.
(19:08):
He had killed multiple of these.
He had killed numerous womenwhose story we were telling Did,
like you know, 10 hours worthof interviews with this guy who
was still on the loose, lovescameras, wanted to be on camera.
Totally crazy.
(19:34):
Murder and Bighorn is a seriesabout missing and murdered
Native American women that Ico-directed with a great Native
filmmaker named Rizal Benali.
So she and I made this seriesfocused on the Crow Reservation
in Montana, which is sort of the.
There is a huge issue in theNative community that I was
completely unaware of before2020, which for centuries, you
know, native women have justeither gone missing or have been
murdered in like astronomicallyhigh numbers.
(19:54):
So Showtime approached me.
This is a very long me.
Am I interested in maybe liketaking this very big idea of
missing and murdered Nativewomen and seeing if there's a
(20:16):
series to be made out of it?
What they really wanted was atrue crime series set on a
Native American reservation.
They wanted something likejuicy and twisty and turny and
because you know it is a, it isa fascinating world that I think
most non-natives just knownothing about 100%.
So, but they also gave me like avery wide swath to kind of make
(20:38):
the thing that I wanted to makeand ultimately what we found.
We used the true crime aspectsas a sort of point of departure,
the true crime aspects as asort of point of departure, and
ultimately the series becomesabout centuries-long
relationship between, like, thenon-native community and the
native community and why nativewomen have become so vulnerable,
(20:59):
and it's this sort ofaccumulation of many, many
different issues.
So we sort of used true crimein order to tell another story.
It was a bit of a bait andswitch.
I bring that up only to saythere's no ending, because it
ultimately like it wasn't reallyabout solving cases as much as
it was like solving an issue andkind of giving and giving an
(21:20):
ending, not an ending, giving ananswer to why this keeps
happening.
And it's very complicatedanswer and it's not like there's
a white boogeyman runningaround killing everyone.
There are those, but itactually is much more
complicated than that.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
That's so hard to not have that resolution exposing
this thing so people have thisgreater understanding of what's
happening within our country.
When is there a line of ofservice interesting to
exploiting somebody in thedocumentary world?
I don't know if you've had thatexperience and had to say no, I
can't do that.
Or even with things that havebeen made unrelated to you,
(22:04):
where you feel like that waswrongdoing to you where you feel
like that was wrongdoing.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
That's a great question.
I mean, I feel like intent ispart of it.
Although probably no filmmakerhas ever like truly honest with
their intent, I thinkexploitation is part of it, like
I feel like everything I do youcould look at as exploitation.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
And it depends what side you're on right, Correct I?
Mean depending on where yourperspective is coming from, is
going to determine if you see itas exploitation or not.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
Yeah, I mean extractive filmmaking was a term
that we had used a lot while wewere making Murder in Bighorn.
I'm a white, jewish, non-nativefilmmaker.
The wrong person to be making aseries about native american
women, right, couldn't befurther from my lived experience
.
So I always I do feel sometimeslike, regardless of the project
(23:02):
, I am exploiting them.
I do think it's if it's, ifit's mutually beneficial and I
approach it in the mostsensitive, trauma, informed way.
I feel like it can mitigatemost of that.
But I just feel like I mean youcould argue this forever the
relationship between, say, ajournalist and a subject or a
(23:25):
documentary filmmaker and asubject.
It's so complicated because Ineed you.
If I'm making a documentaryabout you, I need you to help me
tell your story Right, and it'sa transactional relationship in
some respects, Not us.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Matthew, not you no.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
And when I say you, I mean the collective.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
My anxiety lies with like confrontation, and so
always when I think of likedocumentary makers that are
tackling these tough subjects,or podcast, you know, producers
that are going after unsolvedmysteries.
Maybe not the interview process, because that I'm all about,
it's the cold calling, rightlike reaching out to people that
don't expect you to reach out.
(24:07):
You mean like Claire.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Yeah, but even like Claire had a bit of a buffer, I
did.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
And also, like in Claire's story, she's not like
under any kind of investment,like she has nothing to stress
about on her end, but peoplethat do have something hidden
and distress like cold callingthem.
How do you approach that?
Because for me that's alwayswhat gives me anxiety uh,
gingerly, I would say uh, it's,it's hard.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
I mean, many people have said no and meant it, and
then you have to go away andback off, and you know, I mean
okay, see, put me in coach.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
This is the part I could be into oh yeah, I'll
totally handle all that for youand I'd get them all they'd love
it.
Now they would have no ideawhere the fuck they were coming
to.
They'd be like I thought wewere here for cocktail party,
but they'll be there, don'tworry.
I got you, matthew, call mewhite lies.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I don't know if you heard this podcast, but white
lies incredible.
And so the npr podcast aboutthe murders in selma, like, like
way back in the day and they'reunearthing, you know murders,
that the murders are still alive, and like approaching these
people 40, 50, 60 years later.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Like it's crazy, yeah , but also like exciting, and I
mean that's the weird.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Do you ever get your feelings hurt when people say no
?
Speaker 4 (25:24):
No.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Just part of the job OK.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
Yeah, I mean, if they saw my work and they're like
you fucking suck, and that wouldhurt your feelings making
documentaries like I don't wantto be in your thing because I
think, you're a terriblefilmmaker.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
That would hurt my feelings.
I would have said yes.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
The research that I've done, though, has really
upset me.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
I don't take it first .
I never take it personally, butit's, it is, it is, it's not.
It's not the part of the jobthat I enjoy, it's just a
necessity, yeah, and you have tofigure out a way to make it
appealing for them.
You have to show them the valueof what you would like to do
with the story.
Yeah, but it's, it's.
(26:05):
It's hard and a lot of you know, when I make a series or
documentary, I'm interviewinglike 40 people, 50 people.
All of those people need to bereached out to at some point and
convinced to sit for aninterview, and it's like that's
the whole thing.
And out of those 40 people thathave agreed, there are probably
40 people that just said fuckoff.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
You spent time with Jack Kevorkian.
I spent a year of my life withJack kvorkian.
I spent a year of my life withjack working.
Uh, here's a thing I I think ofhim as like having done really
great service for a lot ofpeople, but also just a very
conflicted character.
Is that a good like assessmentof kvorkian?
Speaker 4 (26:45):
completely.
I mean, that's why I was sointerested in making a film
about him, Because it's, it's,it's like.
You know, the sort of thesisquestion is like is he the right
, is it the right message withthe wrong messenger?
Speaker 3 (27:00):
You know, it's like that's exactly how I've always
kind of looked at it.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Like, yeah, and he is , and I didn't know.
You know, I knew about Jack ofOrchid.
What I think most Americansknew about Jack of Orchid, which
is he sort of came intoprominence in the 90s.
He kind of put doctor-assistedsuicide on the map.
But there's this whole historyto him that I found so
fascinating, which is that youknow, he found this cause in his
(27:26):
mid-60s Like he was almostthrough his life by that point.
He was a failed musician, hewas a pathologist by trade but
didn't do it for very long.
He tried to be a movie directorand he failed.
He painted, he wrote books,like there was some part of Jack
that wanted to be famous.
So then you have to then factorin, when you factor in the
(27:49):
doctor assisted suicide.
It's a real issue and what's sofunny?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
I mean, I'm just saying like we're we, this is
what the podcast is about really.
Like this mental health segueinto like, like Claire always
likes to say, like, like, ifyou're, if you're sitting with a
great therapist and you tellthem the darkest, craziest shit
you've ever done and you andthey understand your story,
their response is of course.
Of course you got there yeah solike there's probably a lot
(28:19):
about his story, even though youknow all of those things that
we'll never know and that I'llnever know yeah, exactly certain
things I'm sure he kept for me.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
So you probably took a deeper dive with kvorkin than
anybody anyone almost anyone, Iwould say that's probably true.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Yeah, yeah, and I had .
I mean, I had the luxury oftime.
It's like if you make a quick60 minutes piece on him, it's
like you're gonna spend a weekon his story.
But I was on that film for twoyears, so that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
How do you take care of yourself, like when you're,
if you've had a heavy interviewor you just learned something
that you're like, damn, how doyou, how do you take care of
yourself?
Mental health wise yeah, and,like you know, you've got to go
back and be a dad and a husbandand all those things, it's a
great question and it honestly,until about a year ago it never
(29:13):
even crossed my mind.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
So I didn't take care of myself for a long time.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
What happened when you didn't take care of yourself
, Matthew?
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Depression, high blood pressure, it's just like
it was.
My body was like revoltingagainst me.
So you know I'm in therapy, I'mon there's a sort of a support
group for people that deal withthese kinds of films or shows
you know where.
You're just like constantlyexposed to people going through
trauma or going, you know.
(30:01):
And it's funny, like it nevercrossed my mind that that might
actually affect me mentally.
And maybe that's screwed up,like I think, because a lot of
people wouldn't even do it.
They wouldn't even go therebecause it would be like too
intense.
And sometimes I feel like theremaybe there's something wrong
with me.
That it's not, like it didn'tever slow me down, like there
(30:22):
aren't dark topics that like aretoo dark for me, and it's not
that I seek them out, it's justsort of like, oh, that's
interesting.
Like let's talk about death.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Well, I told Matthew yesterday.
I was like we do the same job,basically Like you have to ask
the right question.
We both have to ask the rightquestion to get to the story
right.
And his just shows up on ascreen.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
And yours is far more important because you're
actually helping humans.
That's what I'm saying, I mean.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I don't know.
I think documentaries help alot of people.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
But I think we both probably nobody made I didn't
read a book to become a goodtherapist.
Ok, I grew into it.
I truly believe I was meant todo it.
Probably the same for you.
No one was like I think you'dbe great.
Here's a book, figure it out,like.
(31:15):
Probably the same for you.
No one was like I think you'dbe great.
Here's a book, figure it outlike it just comes through you.
So I think, with with that, Ihad this gift, because people
ask me all the time like, how doyou hold all of that?
You know, and to be fair, it'snot like I'm going home crying
about clients, I just don't.
And it's like this switchhappens I I'm on, then I'm off,
and then I change clothes and Imake my kids a PB and J like,
and I can and I will tell you,yes, I've heard horrible things
(31:36):
that have stuck with me or sunkin.
But the body will revolt rightfirst, even if it's not stuck in
my head.
My body will tell me this istoo much, you're exhausted, you
got to move it.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Move, move it through what was the tipping point?
Speaker 4 (31:52):
you said until about a year ago the tipping point was
um, I went to a cardiologistbecause I felt like I was having
sort of rapid you know I've hadpanic attacks since I was 18,
um.
But I went to a cardiologistbecause my heartbeat was kind of
rapid and I had crazy highblood pressure, like stroke
(32:12):
level blood pressure and thedoctor was like what the fuck
are you doing in your life?
Like they probably thought Iwas on coke or something.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
You know, it's just like off the rails.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
So you know, he, he sort of did a whole workup on me
and he strapped, he kept tryingto take my blood pressure and
it was just like all over theplace.
It's like he did like threereadings in like 10 minutes and
it was like just totallydifferent scores.
And he's just like I, you'resuch a mess I can't even like, I
can't even understand what'sgoing on inside your body.
Here's a.
Here's a blood pressure.
(32:43):
What do you recall it?
The?
cuff um, wear this for 24 hours.
You know, there's a littlemachine.
Every 30 minutes it's going totake your blood pressure and
after 24 hours it's going togive me a median read of, like,
what your actual blood pressureis over the course of a day, and
what he found was my bloodpressure was insanely high when
I was awake and when I wassleeping it was 120 over 80.
(33:04):
And so he's just like you havean anxiety disorder, like you
need to get your head checked,basically, before I like give
you any medication what a gooddoctor yeah, really he's
actually an asshole.
Okay, um like I hated hisbedside manner, dr lux, if
you're listening, if you'relistening uh, he's a, he's a
(33:26):
dick I think his advice was wasnice.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
It was good advice.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
He just delivered he delivered it in the worst
possible way because I wasalready like out of my mind and
he was such a dick, um, but uh,that's, that's what.
That was the tipping point forme and I was just like oh, jesus
and I'm, I'm 51, um, and it'sjust like.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Oh, like people die at my age, like it's like you
know, like people just drop deadat my age, like, yeah, you know
like people just drop dead atmy age like a wake-up call too,
because we're old enough nowwhere you've had a friend that
just like randomly, was on a jogand then had a heart attack and
you're like what, what?
Exactly yeah, it's really scary.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Yeah, so, matthew, you look good for 51s but the
only reason that I brought thatup was to get that yeah it was
not even like a nonsense.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Thank you, I just assume after the age of 30,
we're all the same age and solike learning people's ages.
Okay, I don't know who's.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I do have a friend that literally says that all the
time she's like well, we're all40.
And I'm like you're 36.
Stop trying to pretend you're40.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Thought I was the same age as a 24 year old the
other day and I was like thereyou look, 18.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Are there topics like you want to go after.
That are your passion projectsthat maybe wouldn't even be like
the biggest hits ever, but youreally just like, want to make
documentaries about them.
I like music right, you'vealready done some of that I love
music films.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
I would love to do nothing but make music films.
I've never out after my firstfilm.
I've never made another music.
Actually I lied, that's nottrue.
I've never directed anothermusic film.
I produced a film about onedirection, um the boy band we
are familiar um the 3d onedirection movie, when that was
(35:05):
like a big like in the in theway this was like 2014, I want
to say there were like all thesefelt like the bieber film and
like katie perry they're all 3dand like they all came out sort
of in the same five-year period,I produced the one direction
one.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
So what was that?
I mean?
Because those dudes were young.
They were.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
It was like when they were the, the most famous five
dudes in the world.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
yeah, uh, and course this has been in the news
recently, obviously with Liam'spassing Like so let's just kind
of talk about that and how theywere at that point and now like
what your feelings are on what'shappened.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
Well, it's totally tragic.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Yeah, yeah, I mean and I think there was this
feeling even back then that likeget it on tape now, because the
shelf life is very short,especially when you're like at
that end of the market whereyou're so popular.
It's like it's almost like youcan't sustain it.
And so I really got a peek oflike the machine that is around
(36:04):
a band that famous, where it'slike these kids had binders of
their schedules like two yearsin advance, like wow, like down
to like the 15 minute incrementslike per hour.
It was insane.
They had their whole livesplanned out for them.
It's like it was just.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
It made me a little depressed, I have to say I felt
bad for them and, yeah, it'sterrible about you if someone
approaches you with something,what's like a no for you, what
won't you take on?
I mean, you said there'snothing too dark I don't there's
.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
I don't think there's anything I'll always like
listen to, like if I'm there hasto be a spark of like intrigue
there for me and then I have tospend time with it and figure
out like my way into that idea,like, but I wouldn't.
I usually wouldn't dismissanything out of hand unless I'm
like that in no way interests me.
There's no topic I don't thinkthat I would just dismiss out of
(37:02):
hand.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Have you ever interviewed someone where it was
so like their life was sopainful you wanted to like pluck
them out of it and just takecare of them.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Aw Example.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
I just finished a series that will be out on
Amazon Prime next year about thefour students that were stabbed
to death at the University ofIdaho.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Do you know this story?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Yes, Brian Koberger Brian.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Koberger, brian Koberger.
So I've spent the last year anda half two years working on
this project, basically sincelike February of like two months
after the murders happened, andfilming with families of these
victims and they're the mostincredible people, but it's so
(37:50):
raw.
They've never talked to themedia before.
Some of the families thataren't part of our project have
done a lot of press and are sortof out there doing like Nancy
Grace kind of shows.
The families that we're filmingwith just don't.
They've never engaged with themedia and so they don't.
It's like they didn't know howto tell the story in a, which
(38:12):
I'm so honored by, but it was.
The interviews are incredible,but they're so it's like almost
(38:35):
like more raw than almost anytelevision interview I've seen,
because it's it's hard toexplain.
They just there's no.
People tell a story over timeand it sort of becomes hardened
and like this is the way youtell that story and there's none
of that.
So it's like it's they'realmost hard to watch in in a
very moving way.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
So that was a lot of words for that no, that was just
perfect yeah, also, like wedon't say that it sucks to
immediately know oh yeah, you'retalking about the brian
coberger situation as opposed toimmediately knowing maddie,
like all the kids names.
That's a great point.
All right, you know thekiller's name and these four
(39:16):
kids, like those, aren'thousehold names but brian's is,
which is a.
You know, there's that wholelike westboro baptist church,
right, louis through did thatdocumentary about them, and so
then I end up interviewing a fewof the people that now run that
church, which is insane.
These are the people that holdup.
They're, like you know, gay yeahyeah, god like all the stuff,
(39:38):
yeah, but it's almost comicalyeah, awful right, like it
doesn't even seem to be real.
Speaker 4 (39:42):
Yeah, they're like they're like fake bad people
because they're like you're soevil that you're like not even
you're not scary, you're so evil.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
And so the interview they're like that my brother and
I did with them was pretty muchjust like why are you this way?
And it was civil, right, it wasa very civil just like.
Tell us about.
Like okay, what, what do youthink?
Like, here's how I would answerthis for my kid what would you
say?
And a lot of people like you're, like I can't believe, like
you're giving them any airtime,but at the same time, for them I
(40:10):
was like they're not convincinganyone, right, like if the KKK
probably can convince people tojoin their club, westboro
Baptist Church, maybe not somuch.
But at the same time there isthat like who do you want to
lift up and give airtime to?
Probably doesn't deserve it.
Which Brian Kober.
It's a very interesting subject, but that dude doesn't.
We don't need to know his nameit's actually it's.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
It's it's why we made the series in the first place.
To be honest with you, we madea victim focused series about
that crime, but like how thatcataclysmic event has, like
shattered families, families, aschool, a town, like so we keep
the mentions of him to a minimumand we really put the families
(40:54):
first.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
When there's like school shootings and stuff.
I do have to do the news everymorning on my show and I just
will not say the person's name.
I think we're kind of past thatanyway.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
I mean, most of the times those people aren't
getting like huge recognition,but that's because there are so
many of them, parents andteachers and I was with her,
maybe a week at like, when rightafter at a conference and she
(41:35):
was sitting, we're sitting at adinner table and barely holding
it together because ofeverything she had seen and
heard.
And you know, those kids havejust gone back into that school
Like, and it's like to yourpoint.
It's the fact that they'reeverywhere, it's happening all
the time.
It's like this is where ourculture is, that we are enamored
(41:57):
with these really horrificthings because they're happening
so much and we have so muchmore access to hear about them.
I think that you know, like,how do we make a good, how do we
turn it to something good?
Like, how do you see purposecoming out of these stories that
you're telling?
Speaker 4 (42:13):
At the end of Murder and Bighorn.
You know there's a website foran organization.
We did a whole outreach program.
You know it doesn't.
I feel like the work doesn'tstop at the once you complete
the film there's still morestuff to be done.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I have two more super quick questions.
What have you learned about theconcept of forgiveness?
Speaker 4 (43:15):
And the people that are able to actually forgive.
This is a sweepinggeneralization, so I'm sorry.
They seem at peace in a waythat it's the living in the
grief that they made to move on.
Not move on, but to get out ofbed and put one foot in front of
the other and like just theywent to pieces for months and
(43:37):
it's like you have that youeither sink or you swim.
It's like you have that moment,that reckoning moment, where
it's like I need to move forwardin life or I'm never going to
sort of claw my way out of theabyss forward in life, or I'm
never going to sort of claw myway out of the abyss.
And I feel like forgiveness issimilar.
It's like if you're faced withsomething horrific and there is
a human at the center of thathorrific thing maybe someone has
(43:59):
killed a loved one, you knowit's like you either hold on to
your anger or you forgive andyou find inner peace and you
move on, and that's.
I feel like that's a personalchoice for everybody and some
people make it and some peopledon't.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
All right, I need, like, as honest as you can be,
what did you think of Alabama?
I love it here.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Okay, this is not the first time I've been here, um,
I I really love it and I loveBirmingham.
I actually think this is agreat town and I look it's not.
I travel a lot.
I pick a lot of projects andplaces that I don't really enjoy
going to, but this is a placethat I really like and I look
forward to coming back.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Hey, thank you guys for listening.
We love having you here.
We're so happy to be back forseason two.
Please give us a review, shareus with your friends and if you
ever want to reach out and youhave a topic you want us to
cover or something that you'rejust wondering about, let us
know.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Before you Cut Things is hosted by Claire Fehrman and
Laura Quick and produced by me,Will Ockamy the best.
Welcome to, before you Cut Bangs.
I'm Laura Quick and I'm ClaireFehrman.
I am a professional storytellerand I'm currently working on my
first book.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I have worked in mental health for many years in
lots of capacities and this is areally important time to tell
you our big disclaimer this isnot therapy.
We are not your therapists orcoaches or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I mean you shouldn't really trust us very
much at all.
Unless you want to and it turnsout well, then you can trust us
.
That's great.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
We're recording this on my front porch.
It's a new front porch, soapologies that it's not painted
or stained.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Oh my God, stop being weird about it.
I know, I'm just sayingDisclaimer.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Yeah, but either way also, this means like you're
going to hear birds and you'regoing to hear neighbors walking
by and coming up on the porch orwhatever.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
It's just we're going to do this every now and then A
little neighborhood show right,I love it Right.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I'm into it, all right.
So here's the deal.
I'm looking really forward tothis one, because we have
matthew gawkin here, who is adocumentarian, and claire, and
we've talked about this laura,we've talked about this a little
bit, but, like, documentariesare my thing oh, you and shane,
quick, good lord yeah reallyexcited about this and so I want
to start off.
matthew, first, thanks for likehanging with us, but also like
we do an opening question and wekind of go around the room and
(01:27):
we can start with me.
Porch, also I'm nervous thatI've set you guys up on a swing.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
We love it.
It's great.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Swinging right around those mics.
Yeah, it'll be good though.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I've engaged my core.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
You got it, you got it.
So the question today, to startthe episode, is what's your
favorite documentary?
And, like I, probably this is atough one because I have to go
through a lot, but one kind ofcame to my mind initially, which
was Paradise Lost, the WestMemphis three documentary series
really, but that was one of thefirst I really got into and
(01:58):
it's been such like an actualgame changer and I think in my
life even now, like some of thenonprofits that I work with and
about justice and whatever.
I think a lot of that stemmedfrom Paradise Lost.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
So Matthew, hi, hey, what's up?
It's great to be here.
Thank you, um, what can I askyou?
Why Paradise Lost?
What about it?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Yeah, it was just so impactful, I think.
Uh, initially I was young,youngish, you know, probably 19,
20 or something when I firstsaw it.
And I think for most people,like when you hear like oh,
somebody confessed to something,it's like, OK, well, yeah, why
would anyone ever confess tosomething that they didn't do?
And that was my first everexample of like oh, here's why
(02:41):
people will confess to somethingthey didn't do.
I don't know, I think you justgrow up unless you're exposed to
it, thinking well, if someonewent through a trial and is in
prison, of course they did it,like they did it.
And that was the first like eyeopening thing of like or not.
And then, of course, we've seenyou know how prolific that is
(03:02):
throughout the country.
But that was the first thingfor me that was kind of eye
opening and also like it wasjust something you could follow
for years I mean like 20 yearskind of followed that story.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, that's like one of the OG true crime films.
I mean, I love that film Funny,you bring that up.
Not necessarily my favoritedocumentary, but the very first
documentary that made me want tomake documentaries is a film
called Brothers Keeper.
I don't know if you've everseen it.
It's the same director asParadise Lost.
It's his first.
It was a guy named JoeBerlinger and he had a
(03:33):
filmmaking partner named BruceZanofsky and those two made this
incredibly compelling filmabout five inbred brothers in
deep upstate New York.
They all lived in a one roomshack together their entire
lives.
They were in their 60s, I wantto say, and one of them dies and
(03:55):
another one of them is accusedof his murder and it becomes a
murder trial with the.
I mean I'm probably not doingit justice.
It's an incredibly compellingfilm.
It was the first one I went toa movie theater not knowing
anything about it.
I was in film school at thetime studying to be like a
scripted filmmaker.
I wanted to be a director andthat just completely spun my
(04:16):
head around.
About documentaries, favoritedocumentary probably is a film
called Give Me Shelter.
Have you ever seen that?
It's about the Rolling Stones.
Sure, it is specifically aboutthe Rolling Stones playing a
concert at the Altamont Speedway100%.
So have you guys ever seen thisfilm?
Yeah, incredible, incredible Abecause the music is amazing and
(04:36):
there's.
You know they were on tour withTina Turner, so there's just
like incredible footage of themin concert and that was like
peak rolling stones, um.
But the most amazing thingabout it is these famous
documentarians named the mazelbrothers.
Mazel's brothers captured therolling stones were playing a
free concert at the altamontspeedway, which is in california
(04:58):
, at the end of the summer.
Basically, the woodstockstarted that summer and Altamont
was like the bookend.
It ended that summer andWoodstock was all you know love
and hugs.
Altamont ultimately became likeyou could see the summer of
love end and all of the darknesskind of rolled in.
Because they captured on filmsomeone getting stabbed to death
(05:20):
, like right in front of thestage, like total, like crazy
lightning in a bottle moment.
Like in right in front of thestage, like total, like crazy
lightning in a bottle moment.
The Rolling Stones then likebecome kind of detectives,
filmmakers.
They're starting to figure outwhat happened, but it's like
like literally on film, theycaptured the moment that like
the Summer of Love ended and forme that is like the essence of
(05:40):
why I make documentaries.
It's like to find these thingsyou're never supposed to capture
on film.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
And no spoilers, but the Hells Angels were.
I can't remember this, though.
Were they hired by the RollingStones to be security, or did
the promoter hire them?
But either way, the HellsAngels were the security, which
is what started all of them.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
That's pretty gangster.
I'm just thinking.
My husband's literally in themusic business and does huge
festivals, so, like I mean,hundreds of thousands of people
come to his festivals every year.
And I'm thinking about theHells Angels being security and
how crazy that would be.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
And because they hated the hippies.
It was just like it was justinstant tension and there was
just darkness.
Yeah, it was fascinating, Idon't know the Central Park five
.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
for me, I mean, it was really heavy but really
necessary.
It's like such an eye openingthe same thing Will was talking
about just like seeing how ithappens, like not knowing but
almost feeling like a curtainwas pulled back and going like,
oh my God, this is sodevastating for me as a mother
(06:44):
to watch that back and goinglike, oh my God, this is so
devastating for me as a motherto watch that.
For me as like a human, tounderstand that I really have no
idea what that would be likebut to feel so much empathy and
the pain and the like riding thewave.
It was just heavy andenlightening and I feel like it
changed the world and how theworld.
Because it went so mainstream.
It felt really good that somany people had access to hear
(07:06):
that story.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
And it's a story that people maybe thought they knew
but didn't know at all.
Right, it's like you've heardof the Central.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Park Five yes.
I mean because I live in NewYork, but like it's yeah To see
an authentic narrative around,like really what happened, like
whoa, these were little babies,I mean I can't, I couldn't even
and like on the ava front, like13th as well, it's also just
(07:34):
yeah insane, yeah clear um, soI'll go old and new, so for sure
the last waltz that was.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I can remember watching that with my dad and
having this moment of like oh,like this is this is it for me.
And then music has impacted mywhole life with my family, like
that's how my dad, if somethingbad happened or good or whatever
he's like, well, this is thesong that goes with it.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
So that's such a therapy family thing that has
ever been said in the history offamilies.
Go on, I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
I mean he read me Bob Dylan's Forever.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Young, when I was 14.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And.
I was like you know.
And then, when I drove mylittle Subaru to Colorado, oh my
God, of course you had a Subaru.
I opened my glove box and itwas the music and the lyrics to
Truckin' by the Grateful Deadand it said read this on the way
to Colorado, and on the back itwas.
And then, when you decide tocome home, read this and it was
(08:34):
the last part.
So sweet, I won't sing it foryou.
And then recently I watchedWill and Harper.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Yeah, I finished that two nights ago.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I haven't seen it yet .
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It should be appointment viewing it got me
good oh yeah it got me good andI know spoilers.
Every human should be requiredto watch it, no doubt.
Okay, good question.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I didn't see it coming, honestly so we're as, as
you mentioned will.
We're talking about ourobsession with true crime.
We've got documentaries.
We talked about that.
We talked about podcasts, wetalked about movies.
We talked about culture and howwe're obsessed with them.
And really what I love aboutClaire the most is that Claire's
always got a guy for that.
Literally, Claire's got a guyfor everything.
(09:18):
You need Botox she's got a guyfor that.
You need some sort of B12 shotshe's got a guy for that.
You need.
You need some sort of B-12 shotshe's got a guy for that.
And, of course, we want to knowabout obsessions with true
crime.
She's like I got a guy for that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
So tell us about your guy.
I do get Botox and lip fillerin a man's home His name is Dr
Carl and he's not fucking around.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Has he been on the podcast?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
We are going to have him on after the Halloween
costume.
I think it's time, but we can'tshare it.
But go on.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Well, I do have a guy or gal for most things.
This was wild and Matthewcontacted me and asked me to
work on a documentary with himor be a part of it, and I was
incredibly hesitant and this isgoing to be so vague for y'all
listening and I'm sorry, butwhen I can talk about it, I'll
talk about it.
So when Matthew asked to chatwith me, he asked if we could
(10:09):
get coffee, which was reallynice, and we're going to be
talking about some reallyvulnerable things, which is
laughable for what I'vedisclosed on this podcast, but
they're usually pretty funny orembarrassing or humiliating.
But this was like a heart andsoul project and we sat down for
(10:29):
coffee and talked for a reallylong time and I trusted him.
He asked the right questions andwe connected and then I asked
him to do a favor for me BecauseI had some questions.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Because he makes incredible documentaries about
stuff that we really want totalk about.
Like dude, we could go forhours about jack of work in,
right, I mean like that alone,but also just like a lot of kind
of you know on that verge oflike crime or not, happy
subjects, right, stuff is toughto dive into, which is what we
(11:03):
want to dive into okay, so stateof the union.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Matthew, who are you?
Speaker 4 (11:09):
um, I am a I'd like to say new york-based filmmaker,
but I actually live in newjersey's, which sounds much
lamer no, that's totally stillcool you're in alabama right now
calm down there's like acoolness to Alabama that Jersey
will never have.
All right.
I have been directingdocumentaries for about 20 some
(11:30):
odd years now and have made allsorts of projects Like.
My first film was about thePixies Huge fan, awesome,
they're great.
Huge fan, awesome, so great.
I made a film about PETA, theanimal rights group, and the
woman that founded it.
Her name is Ingrid Newkirk.
(11:50):
That was for HBO.
And then I made another HBOfilm about Jack Vorkian.
As Will said, I was MorganSpurlock's producing partner.
Do you know him?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I don't, he made Supersize Me, yeah, passed away
this last year and he died ofcancer this past year.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Um, I was his partner until 2017 and then I left
company and started my owncompany.
Okay, um, I had no interest inlike crime as a genre.
Really it wasn't like.
I don.
Even now I don't think of themas like crime projects.
It just so happens that thatbecame quite popular, like, I
(12:31):
mean, crime has always beenpopular, but like there has been
really since Netflix came alongand a lot of the streamers
started, you know, expanding thepipeline of projects.
Tons of crime.
Crime has just just likeflooded television, obviously
flooded podcasts.
So I haven't done a ton ofcrime but the you know I think
(12:54):
maybe for the last six years orso it's, it's been primarily
what I've been focused ondirecting so why are people
obsessed with?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
what do you think the obsession is?
Speaker 4 (13:05):
with crime.
Yeah of an age-old narrativetrope.
(13:26):
People like to, people likemysteries, they like a nice tidy
ending, they like a conclusion.
Beginnings, middles, ends,twists and turns, I mean that's
sort of the underpinnings ofmost movies and television shows
.
I think there's a there's asort of voyeuristic draw in the
idea of like watching you'resort of it's participatory and
(13:47):
voyeuristic in the sense thatyou're watching someone or
something terrible happen.
You're in the safety of yourliving room with a bowl of
popcorn, but like you can kindof live out this thrilling like
holy shit, asshole clenched.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
I'm not.
Not, by the way.
I'm the girl who literallywould be like sorry, I can't do
this unless there's lots ofpeople and everyone's sleeping
in my bed tonight.
Okay, I can't, I'm too scared.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
True crime stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Even true crime.
I can't do it by myself, I'vegot to have a group.
It's a group project.
Guys, go on, don't watch themenendez press.
Oh, I've literally yes, myhusband's been watching it.
I'm like, okay, I'll be insidereading of something that's like
half true, that series that'sout.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Now you're talking about the, the scripted one
that's the scripted one.
Yeah, yeah because that's likea dramatization of yeah yeah,
but it is tough.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It's tough to watch.
So it's solving the mystery.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
It's voyeurism yeah, I mean, I think that there's,
there is a, there's a real pullin, like the having the distance
but also like feelingparticipatory at the same time,
like it's not your life and youcan kind of place yourself in
that position, whether it's likethe main character is a
(15:07):
detective or if the maincharacter is like a you know, a
grieved widow trying to figureout who killed her husband.
You can.
It's like playing along at home, to like in the darkest, most
macabre kind of way.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
The group watching session settings always have
somebody who's vocal I'm alwayslike no, why you know better.
Why are you this way?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
People love that dopamine hit too, of like, and
then it's like I can wash myface and put my night cream on
and go to bed and come down fromit.
I think you can totallydissociate when you're watching
some any documentary, I thinkyou can, but then true crime,
you're just like out of your ownstuff.
Well, I'm gonna save myquestion around it, but yeah,
(15:54):
that's my other perspective andI watched the most disgusting,
dark, fucked up stuff and youthink, bobby, you think
something's wrong with me Idon't.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I am like pollyanna all the way.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Unless it can happen to me, then I can't do it.
But if someone's shooting theirmom because they were an
asshole, I'm like I'm for sureI'm not gonna do that and I'm a
really nice.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
I'm nervous.
It's a slippery slope.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Anything could take me backwards where do we feel
like dateline falls in this?
I'm scared of that shit toobecause it's my like yard work
podcast okay, I mean, I think Iwas on it you're on, you're on
daylight, I think totally if
Speaker 1 (16:34):
you really google claire that would make sense.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
But I mean, that's my kind of go-to, like if I'm
gonna do a long project for anhour or two, whatever, like
that's a good go to podcast.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Yeah, and because they're.
They're all tidy like it's itis.
They fit in that space.
They don't leave anythingunresolved.
They pick cases that areadjudicated.
So they're like are you know?
They know who's you know who'sthe bad bad guy is?
There's also that element oftrue crime that I think people
are drawn to, which is they wantto see bad guys go away.
(17:09):
So the idea that you're goingto catch the perpetrator and
there's justice at the end, Ithink is quite appealing for
most people, which was thejustice.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah, it brings me to my question I want to ask, like
have you ever taken on aproject where you didn't know
the resolution?
No, Like where you were goingto figure it out throughout the
process.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Yes, I have a couple.
I did a series.
I did two series for Showtime,sort of back to back.
One is called Murder in theBayou and the other is called
Murder in Bighorn.
Neither have actual closedendings.
Murder in the Bayou is abouteight women in a small town in
(17:49):
in louisiana who were allmurdered.
They all knew each other.
The cases were neverinvestigated and never solved.
Ultimately it became clear thatthese eight women were
informants for crooked police inthe small town.
So as a five-hour series forShowtime where we sort of
(18:09):
uncover this whole thing, thereis no closure.
No one has ever been, and whenI say closure, I mean no one has
been arrested or convicted ofany of these cases.
We make it very clear like whodid it?
It's very clear.
We have documented proof.
These people just weren't everarrested, which is a little
dicey to make, I mean legally,but also because we were
(18:32):
shooting the series did you everfeel unsafe?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
yes I was gonna say like that feels sketch, I'm
definitely I would not be onthat team you have to zoom me in
bro zoom me absentee Absentee.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Absentee producer.
Absentee producer Y'all aregoing to be great.
You haven't invited me yet, butjust in case you were thinking
of it, I'm probably not going tobe able to come Crooked yeah,
so there were.
There were crooked cops thatwere on the force they're still
on the force and we were like inthis tiny little town there was
a maybe serial killer, a maybeserial killer.
(19:08):
He had killed multiple of these.
He had killed numerous womenwhose story we were telling Did,
like you know, 10 hours worthof interviews with this guy who
was still on the loose, lovescameras, wanted to be on camera.
Totally crazy.
(19:34):
Murder and Bighorn is a seriesabout missing and murdered
Native American women that Ico-directed with a great Native
filmmaker named Rizal Benali.
So she and I made this seriesfocused on the Crow Reservation
in Montana, which is sort of the.
There is a huge issue in theNative community that I was
completely unaware of before2020, which for centuries, you
know, native women have justeither gone missing or have been
murdered in like astronomicallyhigh numbers.
(19:54):
So Showtime approached me.
This is a very long me.
Am I interested in maybe liketaking this very big idea of
missing and murdered Nativewomen and seeing if there's a
(20:16):
series to be made out of it?
What they really wanted was atrue crime series set on a
Native American reservation.
They wanted something likejuicy and twisty and turny and
because you know it is a, it isa fascinating world that I think
most non-natives just knownothing about 100%.
So, but they also gave me like avery wide swath to kind of make
(20:38):
the thing that I wanted to makeand ultimately what we found.
We used the true crime aspectsas a sort of point of departure,
the true crime aspects as asort of point of departure, and
ultimately the series becomesabout centuries-long
relationship between, like, thenon-native community and the
native community and why nativewomen have become so vulnerable,
(20:59):
and it's this sort ofaccumulation of many, many
different issues.
So we sort of used true crimein order to tell another story.
It was a bit of a bait andswitch.
I bring that up only to saythere's no ending, because it
ultimately like it wasn't reallyabout solving cases as much as
it was like solving an issue andkind of giving and giving an
(21:20):
ending, not an ending, giving ananswer to why this keeps
happening.
And it's very complicatedanswer and it's not like there's
a white boogeyman runningaround killing everyone.
There are those, but itactually is much more
complicated than that.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
That's so hard to not have that resolution exposing
this thing so people have thisgreater understanding of what's
happening within our country.
When is there a line of ofservice interesting to
exploiting somebody in thedocumentary world?
I don't know if you've had thatexperience and had to say no, I
can't do that.
Or even with things that havebeen made unrelated to you,
(22:04):
where you feel like that waswrongdoing to you where you feel
like that was wrongdoing.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
That's a great question.
I mean, I feel like intent ispart of it.
Although probably no filmmakerhas ever like truly honest with
their intent, I thinkexploitation is part of it, like
I feel like everything I do youcould look at as exploitation.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
And it depends what side you're on right, Correct I?
Mean depending on where yourperspective is coming from, is
going to determine if you see itas exploitation or not.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
Yeah, I mean extractive filmmaking was a term
that we had used a lot while wewere making Murder in Bighorn.
I'm a white, jewish, non-nativefilmmaker.
The wrong person to be making aseries about native american
women, right, couldn't befurther from my lived experience
.
So I always I do feel sometimeslike, regardless of the project
(23:02):
, I am exploiting them.
I do think it's if it's, ifit's mutually beneficial and I
approach it in the mostsensitive, trauma, informed way.
I feel like it can mitigatemost of that.
But I just feel like I mean youcould argue this forever the
relationship between, say, ajournalist and a subject or a
(23:25):
documentary filmmaker and asubject.
It's so complicated because Ineed you.
If I'm making a documentaryabout you, I need you to help me
tell your story Right, and it'sa transactional relationship in
some respects, Not us.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Matthew, not you no.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
And when I say you, I mean the collective.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
My anxiety lies with like confrontation, and so
always when I think of likedocumentary makers that are
tackling these tough subjects,or podcast, you know, producers
that are going after unsolvedmysteries.
Maybe not the interview process, because that I'm all about,
it's the cold calling, rightlike reaching out to people that
don't expect you to reach out.
(24:07):
You mean like Claire.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Yeah, but even like Claire had a bit of a buffer, I
did.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
And also, like in Claire's story, she's not like
under any kind of investment,like she has nothing to stress
about on her end, but peoplethat do have something hidden
and distress like cold callingthem.
How do you approach that?
Because for me that's alwayswhat gives me anxiety uh,
gingerly, I would say uh, it's,it's hard.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
I mean, many people have said no and meant it, and
then you have to go away andback off, and you know, I mean
okay, see, put me in coach.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
This is the part I could be into oh yeah, I'll
totally handle all that for youand I'd get them all they'd love
it.
Now they would have no ideawhere the fuck they were coming
to.
They'd be like I thought wewere here for cocktail party,
but they'll be there, don'tworry.
I got you, matthew, call mewhite lies.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I don't know if you heard this podcast, but white
lies incredible.
And so the npr podcast aboutthe murders in selma, like, like
way back in the day and they'reunearthing, you know murders,
that the murders are still alive, and like approaching these
people 40, 50, 60 years later.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Like it's crazy, yeah , but also like exciting, and I
mean that's the weird.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Do you ever get your feelings hurt when people say no
?
Speaker 4 (25:24):
No.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Just part of the job OK.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
Yeah, I mean, if they saw my work and they're like
you fucking suck, and that wouldhurt your feelings making
documentaries like I don't wantto be in your thing because I
think, you're a terriblefilmmaker.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
That would hurt my feelings.
I would have said yes.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
The research that I've done, though, has really
upset me.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
I don't take it first .
I never take it personally, butit's, it is, it is, it's not.
It's not the part of the jobthat I enjoy, it's just a
necessity, yeah, and you have tofigure out a way to make it
appealing for them.
You have to show them the valueof what you would like to do
with the story.
Yeah, but it's, it's.
(26:05):
It's hard and a lot of you know, when I make a series or
documentary, I'm interviewinglike 40 people, 50 people.
All of those people need to bereached out to at some point and
convinced to sit for aninterview, and it's like that's
the whole thing.
And out of those 40 people thathave agreed, there are probably
40 people that just said fuckoff.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
You spent time with Jack Kevorkian.
I spent a year of my life withJack kvorkian.
I spent a year of my life withjack working.
Uh, here's a thing I I think ofhim as like having done really
great service for a lot ofpeople, but also just a very
conflicted character.
Is that a good like assessmentof kvorkian?
Speaker 4 (26:45):
completely.
I mean, that's why I was sointerested in making a film
about him, Because it's, it's,it's like.
You know, the sort of thesisquestion is like is he the right
, is it the right message withthe wrong messenger?
Speaker 3 (27:00):
You know, it's like that's exactly how I've always
kind of looked at it.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Like, yeah, and he is , and I didn't know.
You know, I knew about Jack ofOrchid.
What I think most Americansknew about Jack of Orchid, which
is he sort of came intoprominence in the 90s.
He kind of put doctor-assistedsuicide on the map.
But there's this whole historyto him that I found so
fascinating, which is that youknow, he found this cause in his
(27:26):
mid-60s Like he was almostthrough his life by that point.
He was a failed musician, hewas a pathologist by trade but
didn't do it for very long.
He tried to be a movie directorand he failed.
He painted, he wrote books,like there was some part of Jack
that wanted to be famous.
So then you have to then factorin, when you factor in the
(27:49):
doctor assisted suicide.
It's a real issue and what's sofunny?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
I mean, I'm just saying like we're we, this is
what the podcast is about really.
Like this mental health segueinto like, like Claire always
likes to say, like, like, ifyou're, if you're sitting with a
great therapist and you tellthem the darkest, craziest shit
you've ever done and you andthey understand your story,
their response is of course.
Of course you got there yeah solike there's probably a lot
(28:19):
about his story, even though youknow all of those things that
we'll never know and that I'llnever know yeah, exactly certain
things I'm sure he kept for me.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
So you probably took a deeper dive with kvorkin than
anybody anyone almost anyone, Iwould say that's probably true.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Yeah, yeah, and I had .
I mean, I had the luxury oftime.
It's like if you make a quick60 minutes piece on him, it's
like you're gonna spend a weekon his story.
But I was on that film for twoyears, so that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
How do you take care of yourself, like when you're,
if you've had a heavy interviewor you just learned something
that you're like, damn, how doyou, how do you take care of
yourself?
Mental health wise yeah, and,like you know, you've got to go
back and be a dad and a husbandand all those things, it's a
great question and it honestly,until about a year ago it never
(29:13):
even crossed my mind.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
So I didn't take care of myself for a long time.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
What happened when you didn't take care of yourself
, Matthew?
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Depression, high blood pressure, it's just like
it was.
My body was like revoltingagainst me.
So you know I'm in therapy, I'mon there's a sort of a support
group for people that deal withthese kinds of films or shows
you know where.
You're just like constantlyexposed to people going through
trauma or going, you know.
(30:01):
And it's funny, like it nevercrossed my mind that that might
actually affect me mentally.
And maybe that's screwed up,like I think, because a lot of
people wouldn't even do it.
They wouldn't even go therebecause it would be like too
intense.
And sometimes I feel like theremaybe there's something wrong
with me.
That it's not, like it didn'tever slow me down, like there
(30:22):
aren't dark topics that like aretoo dark for me, and it's not
that I seek them out, it's justsort of like, oh, that's
interesting.
Like let's talk about death.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Well, I told Matthew yesterday.
I was like we do the same job,basically Like you have to ask
the right question.
We both have to ask the rightquestion to get to the story
right.
And his just shows up on ascreen.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
And yours is far more important because you're
actually helping humans.
That's what I'm saying, I mean.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I don't know.
I think documentaries help alot of people.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
But I think we both probably nobody made I didn't
read a book to become a goodtherapist.
Ok, I grew into it.
I truly believe I was meant todo it.
Probably the same for you.
No one was like I think you'dbe great.
Here's a book, figure it out,like.
(31:15):
Probably the same for you.
No one was like I think you'dbe great.
Here's a book, figure it outlike it just comes through you.
So I think, with with that, Ihad this gift, because people
ask me all the time like, how doyou hold all of that?
You know, and to be fair, it'snot like I'm going home crying
about clients, I just don't.
And it's like this switchhappens I I'm on, then I'm off,
and then I change clothes and Imake my kids a PB and J like,
and I can and I will tell you,yes, I've heard horrible things
(31:36):
that have stuck with me or sunkin.
But the body will revolt rightfirst, even if it's not stuck in
my head.
My body will tell me this istoo much, you're exhausted, you
got to move it.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Move, move it through what was the tipping point?
Speaker 4 (31:52):
you said until about a year ago the tipping point was
um, I went to a cardiologistbecause I felt like I was having
sort of rapid you know I've hadpanic attacks since I was 18,
um.
But I went to a cardiologistbecause my heartbeat was kind of
rapid and I had crazy highblood pressure, like stroke
(32:12):
level blood pressure and thedoctor was like what the fuck
are you doing in your life?
Like they probably thought Iwas on coke or something.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
You know, it's just like off the rails.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
So you know, he, he sort of did a whole workup on me
and he strapped, he kept tryingto take my blood pressure and
it was just like all over theplace.
It's like he did like threereadings in like 10 minutes and
it was like just totallydifferent scores.
And he's just like I, you'resuch a mess I can't even like, I
can't even understand what'sgoing on inside your body.
Here's a.
Here's a blood pressure.
(32:43):
What do you recall it?
The?
cuff um, wear this for 24 hours.
You know, there's a littlemachine.
Every 30 minutes it's going totake your blood pressure and
after 24 hours it's going togive me a median read of, like,
what your actual blood pressureis over the course of a day, and
what he found was my bloodpressure was insanely high when
I was awake and when I wassleeping it was 120 over 80.
(33:04):
And so he's just like you havean anxiety disorder, like you
need to get your head checked,basically, before I like give
you any medication what a gooddoctor yeah, really he's
actually an asshole.
Okay, um like I hated hisbedside manner, dr lux, if
you're listening, if you'relistening uh, he's a, he's a
(33:26):
dick I think his advice was wasnice.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
It was good advice.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
He just delivered he delivered it in the worst
possible way because I wasalready like out of my mind and
he was such a dick, um, but uh,that's, that's what.
That was the tipping point forme and I was just like oh, jesus
and I'm, I'm 51, um, and it'sjust like.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Oh, like people die at my age, like it's like you
know, like people just drop deadat my age, like, yeah, you know
like people just drop dead atmy age like a wake-up call too,
because we're old enough nowwhere you've had a friend that
just like randomly, was on a jogand then had a heart attack and
you're like what, what?
Exactly yeah, it's really scary.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Yeah, so, matthew, you look good for 51s but the
only reason that I brought thatup was to get that yeah it was
not even like a nonsense.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Thank you, I just assume after the age of 30,
we're all the same age and solike learning people's ages.
Okay, I don't know who's.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I do have a friend that literally says that all the
time she's like well, we're all40.
And I'm like you're 36.
Stop trying to pretend you're40.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Thought I was the same age as a 24 year old the
other day and I was like thereyou look, 18.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Are there topics like you want to go after.
That are your passion projectsthat maybe wouldn't even be like
the biggest hits ever, but youreally just like, want to make
documentaries about them.
I like music right, you'vealready done some of that I love
music films.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
I would love to do nothing but make music films.
I've never out after my firstfilm.
I've never made another music.
Actually I lied, that's nottrue.
I've never directed anothermusic film.
I produced a film about onedirection, um the boy band we
are familiar um the 3d onedirection movie, when that was
(35:05):
like a big like in the in theway this was like 2014, I want
to say there were like all thesefelt like the bieber film and
like katie perry they're all 3dand like they all came out sort
of in the same five-year period,I produced the one direction
one.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
So what was that?
I mean?
Because those dudes were young.
They were.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
It was like when they were the, the most famous five
dudes in the world.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
yeah, uh, and course this has been in the news
recently, obviously with Liam'spassing Like so let's just kind
of talk about that and how theywere at that point and now like
what your feelings are on what'shappened.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
Well, it's totally tragic.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Yeah, yeah, I mean and I think there was this
feeling even back then that likeget it on tape now, because the
shelf life is very short,especially when you're like at
that end of the market whereyou're so popular.
It's like it's almost like youcan't sustain it.
And so I really got a peek oflike the machine that is around
(36:04):
a band that famous, where it'slike these kids had binders of
their schedules like two yearsin advance, like wow, like down
to like the 15 minute incrementslike per hour.
It was insane.
They had their whole livesplanned out for them.
It's like it was just.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
It made me a little depressed, I have to say I felt
bad for them and, yeah, it'sterrible about you if someone
approaches you with something,what's like a no for you, what
won't you take on?
I mean, you said there'snothing too dark I don't there's
.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
I don't think there's anything I'll always like
listen to, like if I'm there hasto be a spark of like intrigue
there for me and then I have tospend time with it and figure
out like my way into that idea,like, but I wouldn't.
I usually wouldn't dismissanything out of hand unless I'm
like that in no way interests me.
There's no topic I don't thinkthat I would just dismiss out of
(37:02):
hand.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Have you ever interviewed someone where it was
so like their life was sopainful you wanted to like pluck
them out of it and just takecare of them.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Aw Example.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
I just finished a series that will be out on
Amazon Prime next year about thefour students that were stabbed
to death at the University ofIdaho.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Do you know this story?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Yes, Brian Koberger Brian.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Koberger, brian Koberger.
So I've spent the last year anda half two years working on
this project, basically sincelike February of like two months
after the murders happened, andfilming with families of these
victims and they're the mostincredible people, but it's so
(37:50):
raw.
They've never talked to themedia before.
Some of the families thataren't part of our project have
done a lot of press and are sortof out there doing like Nancy
Grace kind of shows.
The families that we're filmingwith just don't.
They've never engaged with themedia and so they don't.
It's like they didn't know howto tell the story in a, which
(38:12):
I'm so honored by, but it was.
The interviews are incredible,but they're so it's like almost
(38:35):
like more raw than almost anytelevision interview I've seen,
because it's it's hard toexplain.
They just there's no.
People tell a story over timeand it sort of becomes hardened
and like this is the way youtell that story and there's none
of that.
So it's like it's they'realmost hard to watch in in a
very moving way.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
So that was a lot of words for that no, that was just
perfect yeah, also, like wedon't say that it sucks to
immediately know oh yeah, you'retalking about the brian
coberger situation as opposed toimmediately knowing maddie,
like all the kids names.
That's a great point.
All right, you know thekiller's name and these four
(39:16):
kids, like those, aren'thousehold names but brian's is,
which is a.
You know, there's that wholelike westboro baptist church,
right, louis through did thatdocumentary about them, and so
then I end up interviewing a fewof the people that now run that
church, which is insane.
These are the people that holdup.
They're, like you know, gay yeahyeah, god like all the stuff,
(39:38):
yeah, but it's almost comicalyeah, awful right, like it
doesn't even seem to be real.
Speaker 4 (39:42):
Yeah, they're like they're like fake bad people
because they're like you're soevil that you're like not even
you're not scary, you're so evil.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
And so the interview they're like that my brother and
I did with them was pretty muchjust like why are you this way?
And it was civil, right, it wasa very civil just like.
Tell us about.
Like okay, what, what do youthink?
Like, here's how I would answerthis for my kid what would you
say?
And a lot of people like you're, like I can't believe, like
you're giving them any airtime,but at the same time, for them I
(40:10):
was like they're not convincinganyone, right, like if the KKK
probably can convince people tojoin their club, westboro
Baptist Church, maybe not somuch.
But at the same time there isthat like who do you want to
lift up and give airtime to?
Probably doesn't deserve it.
Which Brian Kober.
It's a very interesting subject, but that dude doesn't.
We don't need to know his nameit's actually it's.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
It's it's why we made the series in the first place.
To be honest with you, we madea victim focused series about
that crime, but like how thatcataclysmic event has, like
shattered families, families, aschool, a town, like so we keep
the mentions of him to a minimumand we really put the families
(40:54):
first.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
When there's like school shootings and stuff.
I do have to do the news everymorning on my show and I just
will not say the person's name.
I think we're kind of past thatanyway.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
I mean, most of the times those people aren't
getting like huge recognition,but that's because there are so
many of them, parents andteachers and I was with her,
maybe a week at like, when rightafter at a conference and she
(41:35):
was sitting, we're sitting at adinner table and barely holding
it together because ofeverything she had seen and
heard.
And you know, those kids havejust gone back into that school
Like, and it's like to yourpoint.
It's the fact that they'reeverywhere, it's happening all
the time.
It's like this is where ourculture is, that we are enamored
(41:57):
with these really horrificthings because they're happening
so much and we have so muchmore access to hear about them.
I think that you know, like,how do we make a good, how do we
turn it to something good?
Like, how do you see purposecoming out of these stories that
you're telling?
Speaker 4 (42:13):
At the end of Murder and Bighorn.
You know there's a website foran organization.
We did a whole outreach program.
You know it doesn't.
I feel like the work doesn'tstop at the once you complete
the film there's still morestuff to be done.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I have two more super quick questions.
What have you learned about theconcept of forgiveness?
Speaker 4 (43:15):
And the people that are able to actually forgive.
This is a sweepinggeneralization, so I'm sorry.
They seem at peace in a waythat it's the living in the
grief that they made to move on.
Not move on, but to get out ofbed and put one foot in front of
the other and like just theywent to pieces for months and
(43:37):
it's like you have that youeither sink or you swim.
It's like you have that moment,that reckoning moment, where
it's like I need to move forwardin life or I'm never going to
sort of claw my way out of theabyss forward in life, or I'm
never going to sort of claw myway out of the abyss.
And I feel like forgiveness issimilar.
It's like if you're faced withsomething horrific and there is
a human at the center of thathorrific thing maybe someone has
(43:59):
killed a loved one, you knowit's like you either hold on to
your anger or you forgive andyou find inner peace and you
move on, and that's.
I feel like that's a personalchoice for everybody and some
people make it and some peopledon't.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
All right, I need, like, as honest as you can be,
what did you think of Alabama?
I love it here.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Okay, this is not the first time I've been here, um,
I I really love it and I loveBirmingham.
I actually think this is agreat town and I look it's not.
I travel a lot.
I pick a lot of projects andplaces that I don't really enjoy
going to, but this is a placethat I really like and I look
forward to coming back.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Hey, thank you guys for listening.
We love having you here.
We're so happy to be back forseason two.
Please give us a review, shareus with your friends and if you
ever want to reach out and youhave a topic you want us to
cover or something that you'rejust wondering about, let us
know.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Before you Cut Things is hosted by Claire Fehrman and
Laura Quick and produced by me,Will Ockamy the best.
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