January 17, 2025 • 33 mins
We dig into the crucial differences between Licensed Professional Counselors (LCPs) and pastoral counselors, addressing how negative church experiences can deter people from seeking effective therapy. Inspired by a listener's traumatic encounter with an unlicensed "counselor" who imposed detrimental contractual agreements, we delve into avoiding harmful mental healthcare experiences. We discuss essential questions to ask and emphasize seeking appropriate care: just as you wouldn't consult a church for a broken leg, mental health concerns require qualified professionals.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to, before you Cut Bangs.
I'm Laura Quick and I'm ClaireFehrman.
I am a professional storytellerand I'm currently working on my
first book.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I have worked in mental health for many years in
lots of capacities and this is areally important time to tell
you our big disclaimer this isnot therapy.
We are not your therapists orcoaches or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I mean, you shouldn't really trust us very
much at all, unless you want toand it turns out well, then you
can trust us.
That's great.
I have a confession, oh okay,okay.
On the way here this morningwhen I texted and said I was
running a bit behind, which isobviously I knew yourself to a
(00:46):
great start being on time.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I wasn't going to mention that.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I don't want to hear it.
What I learned about myself isI looked for my phone in my
house for a substantial amountof time before I realized that
it was in my back pocket.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I thought you were going to say your hands.
Me too, back pocket's a littlebit better.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I mean I was like where is it?
I just had it and then only tofind it in my pocket.
It was a dark time for me.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Okay, I just I feel like we need to really set the
record straight on who we are aspeople.
When you guys were on the wayhere, it was snowing, like it
started flaring for a minute andthen like for five minutes like
dang it is like snowing,snowing, uh, which is my
favorite thing in the world.
How are we on snow and winterweather in all?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
all around winter weather I also saw snow this
morning, like big snowflakesfalling at my house, and I was.
You know, there was this partof me that's like oh.
I love it like a hallmark film,like happy ending, you know um.
And then there was this otherpart of me that is like no, I'm
terrible at snow, I don't evenown the right, and you don't
(01:56):
like deeply cold weather forseveral days either.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Can't do it oh yeah, heads weeks.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, I know I'm already a little dead inside.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I'm wearing heated socks right now.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
I'm so jealous.
That's a battery pack.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
And you just plug it in like USB-C.
Oh right, what?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
do they charge?
Well, I need to go wherever yougot those and get some.
What about you?
You obviously are a snowbird.
I winter, well, I winter well,she winters well.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I love it because I know it's temporary and y'all
know I love that Nordiclifestyle of hygge.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Say more.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, I don't know, y'all don't know what that is.
What is that?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Hygge.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So it's spelled H-Y-G-G-E, okay, but pronounced
hygge, it's very like Danish.
Don't quote me on the Danish,but Nordic for sure I get.
I'm not great at geography, butcold Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I'm not Mappy either.
I'm not going to test you on it.
Gotcha, you're like point toAmsterdam right now.
Show me on that, I can't.
How many hours does it?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
take.
So this, it's the idea of likeyou kind of just know that it's
going to be dark and cold andquiet, so you do things that are
cozy.
It's basically cozy living.
Like you dress really cozy Uh, Iguess electronic socks follow
in that category but like lotsof like wool and blankets and
(03:24):
sweaters and fires, warmbeverages, like always, and
really warm foods, and so youjust take care of yourself and
then you're supposed to havereally dim light, so like lots
of candles and lamps, and it's atime to like be with the people
that you really like, and thenyou know that when spring and
summer come, the days aredifferent.
(03:44):
So it's just this idea of likeI'm going to give into this and
so I love it I think leaning inis a lot better than fighting it
.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I get so mad, I'm like pumped.
I put on 14 sweaters and aturtleneck and layer up and then
you know 10 minutes and I'mlike who agreed to this?
This is bullshit.
Where are my heated socks?
Like I don't uh.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I don't obviously want anybody to be hurt or you
know, uh, whatever, but like icestorms, everybody hates.
I love it.
I love something exactly if Ican be stuck at home and play
it's like then that's what I getto do is like play and go,
slide around and stuff.
Like the night beforesnowmageddon he was supposed to
snow like one to three inchesthat next day, and then that
(04:27):
night before is like it's notgoing to do anything and I was
so frustrated it was going to bereally cold so I iced down the
front yard so we could stillsled.
Then, of course, it iced in amajor snowy way and we were
stuck here for a week, which wasgreat because we're not alabama
people.
This was like 2013 14 maybe,yeah, okay, something like that,
and the town shut down.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Oh, and I will say even last year, when we got some
stuff, if you're in alabama ora really southern state that
doesn't see a lot of winterweather, we have no skills well,
we don't, uh, we have noinfrastructure.
Yeah, that's what I meannobody's salting our roads, and
(05:08):
here's what happens.
You have a bunch of 16 to 17year olds who are like I'm gonna
get my hair done, I need to goto Sephora, and then they're all
out on the roads no, you have16 and 17 year olds being like I
gotta make out with myboyfriend.
Well, I wasn't gonna throwy'all under the bus like that,
but there she did it, so therewe go.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I will say also like up in new york a couple years
ago.
They had a very similar stylestorm where it was like the ice
and snow mixed together and theyit was exact same.
They were all stuck for days onthe road.
So that was like a veryspecific storm where you could.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
There was nothing, I mean I think like the difference
is they know to stay home andpeople in Alabama are like, nah,
we're going to go ahead.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I have my Ford F-150.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
We'll put it in four-wheel drive.
Hey, Shane will kill me fordoing this, but he literally had
to call a dude to find out howto use his four-wheel drive on
his truck.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I was like, oh, I'm glad you bought that.
I think any man would be upsetabout that I don't know.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I think he thinks it's funny Because he was like I
don't know.
You know he bought that thingjust to.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, so bring on all the snow.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
All right, so super fun topic idea.
This is from a fan.
I'm not going to mention hername Therapist, Because I am a
relatively educated woman.
But I didn't realize thedifference between pastoral
counselors and licensedtherapist.
And oh boy did I get completelyscrewed over by a non-licensed
(06:36):
pastoral female counselor inBirmingham who marketed herself
as a therapist, had a signed andsigned air and agreement about
confidentiality and how she'donly meet with both of us
present.
Then broke all of it.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Wait, wait.
Both of us meaning a couple, aspouse.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Okay, okay and, tragically, no way to file a
complaint that I'm aware of.
And posting reviews ispointless because I don't feel
like the world knowing about ourexperience.
So, yeah, maybe a primer on thedifferent types of therapist.
Premiere episode I don't know.
I'm not sure why she saidprimer, licensed chair, why it
(07:16):
matters and what to expect ifsomeone is going to a pastoral
counseling route, because thischick is all over Birmingham
self-promoting and speaking atconferences which is where I
first heard her speak and thenstupidly wasted years and a lot
of money on quote counselingthat ultimately nearly tanked
our family.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I had no idea we're gonna have to tiptoe around
defamation, uh stuff in this onewell, the good news is, we're
not gonna say her name.
I don't, she didn't tell me.
She didn't tell me.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
The less we know, the better yes, so we don't know
who this person is, but one ofthe things that I do know for
sure, um, is because I'm such ahuge mental health advocate that
I hear so many times how peoplegot burned by therapists.
And then, when I ask morequestions, I find out very
(08:08):
quickly that it was a churchcounselor, a counselor, a coach,
kind of showing up in thistherapeutic way without having
the licensing to back it, and Ithink that this is a good.
Well, we're going to talk abouta couple things today.
We're going to talk about thiswhat's the difference between a
counselor and a therapist, and apastoral person in your life
(08:32):
who maybe is guiding you, versusactually seeing a licensed
therapist?
but we're also going to talkabout why y'all are all calling
me right why everybody blowingup Claire's phone and my phone
like, do you know, a goodtherapist I'm like.
You know, let me get you thelist, let me connect you with
Claire.
So that's what we're talkingabout today so let's give our.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I guess we can call her a fan, but maybe a listener.
Can you make up a name for her,just so I have some somebody to
reference.
Amanda, amanda, okay.
So Amanda wrote us about thishorrible experience and she used
the word pastoral counselor.
Is that right?
Okay?
So I want to be clear on thefront end for therapists.
So my licensure is licensedprofessional counselor.
(09:12):
So when you hear counselor,that's not a red flag.
There's plenty of licensure forcounselor, but my master's was
marriage and family therapy.
So, like you, just everyone hasto kind of relax about those
terms.
When you're licensed, in moststates you can either be
counselor or therapist, andthey're very similar.
Where things go wacky and wonkyis in religious settings.
(09:38):
You can decide what you are andthen they're really like one of
my friends her mother got a umdoctorate of wisdom just online
and so doctor, whatever is thatlike my phd in difficult men, is
that what you have?
I always say that okay I think Ido, but do you have a piece of
(10:00):
paper?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I'm, I'm an ordained minister with a piece of paper,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So there's lots of things that you can just kind of
wake up Google and get acertificate on, so obviously our
pastor here Will is one ofthose people.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I also have a piece of paper.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
She has written for the—.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
I just gave myself this license, but that's pretty
equivalent to what, what?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I'm up against okay.
So I went to so much school,years of years and years of
hours to get and let's talkabout that, because I don't
think people understand.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I know that I didn't understand, understand this
until I became like really closefriends with you.
The qualifications, not justthe schooling.
So let's just go ahead andthrow it, throw out.
You gotta have five to sixyears of school.
I had seven, seven years ofschool.
Then on top of that, how many?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
hours did you have?
So it depends on your licensure.
Licensed marriage and familytherapists usually have the most
.
That's why I didn't do that.
Um, I was just ready to go, butsomewhere between three and
6,000 hours depending, that's alot of work.
If, by the way, um, that's alot of free work a lot of times,
um, because you're oftentimesan intern, I had a great
(11:11):
opportunity and got paid duringthat time because I wouldn't
have been able to do it, butyou're giving a lot of time to
people.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, I mean, I was gonna say in the like, uh,
online ordained minister thingso I could do this wedding, the
first one.
I was frustrated with how easyit was.
I was like looking forward tomaybe taking some test.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Some kind of 10 question thing.
Nothing.
You put your information in andspits out a piece of paper.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
And I think that that's something I always
encourage people.
So kind of what I was sayingabout the frustrations that I
feel like I get to capture asbeing like an advocate.
I mean like always reach out ifyou ever want to, if you're
curious about therapy or you'reready to start your therapy
journey, like I'd love to tellyou about why I did it and like
the benefits and whatever.
And then you get these horrorstories and a lot of what I
(11:57):
understand is just because youmet a person or you found them
online does not mean they'regoing to be your guru.
That's right, okay.
So if you're not asking greatqualifying questions to these
people and digging into theirexperience, man, I think that's
kind of a different definiteprerequisite of like get, find
(12:19):
out more.
What would be those questions?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Okay, so I want to.
So I can't say this moreclearly enough If you have not
read Maybe you Should Talk toSomebody, or Maybe you Should
Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb.
It is the and I am so antiself-help psychology.
All those books really bore me.
She's so good, so good.
She goes through her owntherapeutic journey as a
(12:44):
therapist, with the therapistand then what it's like to be a
clinician and it's the mostaccurate description.
And here's the big thing umcoaches and mentors super useful
.
I've had coaches and mentors.
Coaches and mentors can givereally specific um direction.
Hey, have you tried this?
Like career coaching, like youwant action steps, but a good
(13:07):
clinician, if someone sat downor actually I'm about to give an
example of a bad clinician ifyou sit across from a therapist
and they tell you what theywould do and you go do it and it
blows up your life.
That has caused a huge rupturein the client and therapist
relationship.
You can't trust that personanymore.
(13:27):
And then you're second guessinglike what have I told them?
And was that accurate?
Do I even trust myself?
So a therapist never, ever,ever gives advice.
They can say have youconsidered this thing?
What would it look like if youtried that and then you walk
them through it.
So a good therapist only asksthe right questions.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Right, a great therapist in my experience and
even being friends with you,claire has been that you get to
say, okay, but what's what?
What is the next step?
Like, how do you take your nextstep?
And and it's more of putting itback on me Like I'm the owner
of my life and a great therapistis just letting me hold,
(14:06):
holding up a mirror and lettingme see myself a little bit
better.
I mean, that's been myexperience, is that true?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah.
So when we hold up the mirrorand it's like, what would this
be like?
Or whatever the question is,and you have to look at yourself
, we're tolerating you in a waythat you've never tolerated you
before, and so then it gives youpermission to do something
different.
And I'm sure I've said this ina million other other episodes
of, like the unbiased witness isa good therapist, because we
(14:33):
sit here and you tell uswhatever it is.
You need to tell us Rememberthe chickens, remember the
chickens?
Uh, we just hold it, and Idon't mean hold it in silence, I
can't stand those therapists,okay, but we hold it and love
you anyways.
Or we ask these questions whereit's like gosh, that does sound
really hard.
Where else has that happened toyou before?
And so then you have to look atall those patterns that you've
(14:54):
been a part of.
So, like in good relationshipcounseling, everyone always
comes in to talk about theirpartner.
He did this, she does that, he,she, over and over again.
Finger point, finger point,finger point.
Until you change in therelationship, the relationship
doesn't change.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
A great therapist once said to me, more recent
than I'd care to admit can youask that person to leave the
room which is hilarious becausethey weren't actually in the
room but what was being said tome is you're letting this person
take over your session.
The only thing we actually havecontrol over today is you and
how you want to show up and thework you want to do, and I was
(15:32):
like it's the worst, so annoyingmel's up there laughing.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
It's the worst and the best and the best, and it
helped me a ton.
Let's go back to amanda'squestion.
Yes, um, so big differences.
Are a counselor and a therapist?
If they hold a license in thestate, have gone through
exceptional training, thatdoesn't mean they're the right
fit for you.
The right fit is absolutelyimportant.
Um, and then if someone is aspecific type of coach, like,
(16:01):
let's say, career coaching, youat least know what you're
getting into.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I just hired I, three weeks ago, started with my new
career coach or executive coach,and I use coaches to help me
with implementation.
So I've had one throughout mycareer.
I'm really have some big,audacious things.
I want to do with myself,career wise that person I hire a
coach, one like anything.
(16:26):
I'm not going to you to get myeyebrows done If you have crazy
eyebrows.
I am not going to work out andhave you tell me what to do if I
don't like the way your bodylooks.
Okay, I'm not letting you touchmy hair if you have crazy hair,
and I ultimately would not hirean executive coach if I don't
like the way their career hasgone.
So you have to haveaccomplished a lot, not just got
(16:49):
went online, because that iswhat happens with coaches they
go and get these certificationsand they're all of a sudden
they're a life coach or they'rean executive coach.
You need to be asking for theirresume if you're hiring these
people.
But they are way more aboutexecution.
How can I help you accomplishthe things you have on your goal
list, to-do list, team list,infrastructure, whatever?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
So coaching, the format is typically different.
So coaching is typically donein 30, 60 or 90 day increments,
like you're signing some kind ofcontract, like you're setting
really tangible goals, typicallythat you can kind of see and
check these boxes.
Coaching that I absolutely loveis what Laura's describing.
(17:32):
One of my best friends has acompany called Glide and it's
100% executive functioningcoaching, so it is ADHD.
If you're on the spectrum, likeall of these people that are
like man, I'm just getting stuck.
What do I need to do?
And they do everything fromlike, uh, budgeting, planning,
all of that.
Really a plus B equals C stuff.
So that is not red flagcoaching.
(17:54):
To me that makes a ton of senseand it really pairs well.
If you're doing the deep dark,somebody's holding up the mirror
to me.
So um, um and I don't want tojust like dog any kind of like
religious pastoral counseling.
I think that there's a placefor it however, we will.
I will, but I also.
I also will.
(18:16):
It's just not the same.
The training isn't the same.
Uh, there's no ability todiagnose.
They wouldn't even know what adiagnosis is or how to like have
the criteria to diagnose.
I mean, I guess anybody canGoogle anything, but it can be
very solution focused instead ofunderlying problems and issues
(18:37):
patterns.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
That's right, yeah, and I think, too, one of the
things that we've seen happen ina religion driven environment.
If a pastoral or like someonein a church is saying they're
counseling you, um, if youhaven't asked them what their
qualifications are, that's agreat place to start.
Like tell me about yourexperience, why do you feel like
(18:58):
you would be a good fit for me?
What are you?
What are we trying toaccomplish together?
One, you're allowed to askthose questions, but two, I
think it's really important thatwe just talk about the like big
ugly elephant in the room whichis we're living in.
What I would consider is themost church hurt generation of
all time.
(19:18):
People are leaving, uh,organized religion in in a mass
exodus.
I've never seen anything notjust christianity not just
christianity.
We're gonna say something no,I'm agreeing with you, yeah and
I think that when we think, whenyou ask people why they needed
a break or why they leftcompletely, what you hear over
(19:39):
and over again was one they puttheir faith in the people in
that organization, hoping theycould really help them, or
believing what they told them,and they got super let down and
hurt or even abused, likethere's a lot of that coming out
.
And so I would just say oneasking the right questions, but
(19:59):
two, just understanding.
I would just say one asking theright questions, but two, just
understanding that a church isthe hospital for the sick, for,
like the sick of heart, peopleare looking to gather with like
minded people who believesimilarly.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I don't know, if that's where you should go get
your mental health checked in,unless they actually have
licenses.
So if you Will fell down hisstairs the other night, okay, he
slipped, this is a real thing,that really happened.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
We did see the video and if you haven't seen the
video, it's on his Instagram.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
It's on my TikTok and Instagram and all that you need
to check it and let's say, whenWill did that, he landed on his
wrist and broke it.
He would I would say he wouldhave been insane if he drove to
a church to have that mended.
That is what we're seeing,where religion and mental health
(20:56):
care are having a bizarrecrossover.
So if you have chronicdepression like true major
depressive disorder or bipolaror even like some mild anxiety,
and you're driving into a church, a synagogue, whatever, or or
even like a yoga training whichI'm in, like people go there to
(21:16):
get well too.
I mean, it's all the same.
Um, who that felt risky to saybut whatever, if we're going
there, that is the same as mywrist broke.
So I drove to this building inhopes that they can talk me
through this, and that's nuts tome.
We just don't give mentalhealth issues as much
(21:37):
credibility as they deserve.
It's a deep wounding thatdeserves deep fixing and healing
.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Well, and it normally didn't show up just because you
have a symptom that pops up inyour life, because maybe your
anxiety is higher than it's everbeen, your depression is darker
than it's ever been.
Typically, those things are likeClaire was talking about, when
you hold up that mirror and youget to look in it and we get to
ask these and answer thesequestions that our therapist is
(22:04):
asking like, oh man, actuallythis does happen to me every
year at this time and whatever.
But if you're going to churchand you're trying to get your
wrist that is broken fixed,that's crazy.
The same way that if you'regoing to church or any organized
place where people who aresimilar with with similar
beliefs gather to buildcommunity and thinking that
(22:25):
that's where your healingmentally is going to come from,
that's it might be a component,but I don't think it's the
component.
I think we should be open tounderstanding.
I always it's like when Clay'slike I'm going to, I'm, I'm
planning events, now I'm like,oh, you're a professional event
planner, you know.
Sorry, clay, I love you.
You actually did a great job.
(22:45):
But if you're not aprofessional and if you don't
have the right, proper training,you can really hurt people.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
There's a state representative that has put this
bill up in Alabama.
That is would requirecounseling before any marriage,
before you could sign.
Like there are no more marriagelicenses in Alabama.
That's a whole different episode, uh, but there are marriage
contracts now that you get okay,and to this bill, if passed,
which it will not would say thatyou have to, you're required to
go to counseling before you dothat.
But the many concerns.
There are many concerns, butone of them is like yeah, then
people are going to be going toa bunch of unqualified people
(23:24):
who have no business tellingthem any advice.
That's right, and it's going toput people in financial burdens
that may not be able to affordcounseling.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
It's a whole thing, it's a cycle and I would say
Couple therapy is not covered byinsurance, by the way.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
No Right, that's what I'm saying Most therapy, even
now is not covered, or greattherapists, I find typically
don't.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Unfortunately, we don't take it.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yeah, sometimes we go into therapy and what we say it
is what it is, and sometimeswhat we say it's not even the
truth, but it's not what'sreally hurting us.
And a good therapist seesbeyond that.
A newer therapist not even badwill latch on to that Like
(24:07):
here's the presenting problemand they leave on the train.
But once you learn to thinkwhat is this really about, you
can start to do it.
So we're at Will's house today.
I used to live in thisneighborhood and in my first
marriage and I rarely thinkabout it when I come over here
but January of that year waswhen I knew that I wanted to get
(24:30):
a divorce and it was like superdark and when I was driving
over here I started crying likenot likeically my eyes were just
kind of burning and I had thiswhole thing of oh, I passed the
kids preschool, like theirpreschool is right down the
street and like just how manydays I sat in that line.
(24:51):
But I had not made theconnection about that.
This was the time of year Iknew the divorce was happening.
So my head starts going likeI'm.
I miss that when my kids arelittle and I need to do
something to feel better.
Right, like that's what I do.
I feel uncomfortable, need todo something to feel better.
And then I just like pause andask the question wait, what's
this really about?
(25:12):
Well, that this is the exacttime of year when I was so dark
and so sad and so lonely.
And I'm right back in the sameneighborhood and once I just sat
with that and I could just say,oh, that's grief, that's just
old grief that still lives in me.
Then I can pull in and keepdoing the podcast, like I don't
need to call my ex-husband, Idon't need to go pick up the
(25:33):
kids, I don't need to knock onthe preschool door, I don't need
to go change my medication,like.
But that's what we do.
We get so uncomfortable, likehere's the thing, so a newer
therapist might like have wantedto like go down that track or
do something to make that feelbetter, when really it was like,
oh, that was just old stuff andit got to come out today, last
(25:54):
thing, and then maybe I'll zipit.
I don't know, I would be verywary, is that?
the word Okay Alongside kind ofthis coaching thing.
I've seen a lot of peopledecide that they're nutrition
coaches and I work hand-in-handwith a lot of dieticians.
Dieticians go to almost thelength of schools as physicians
(26:17):
which is wild to me and soanyone can wake up and tell you
what to eat, what vitamins totake, blah, blah, blah.
They did not do the sameschooling and so be super aware
of, like when you're joining,like a challenge or a cleanse or
whatever.
People can wake up and whatworked for them they've assumed
(26:37):
works for you.
Same thing with mental healthcare.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, strong encouragements are don't be
afraid to ask people for theirresume.
How long have you been atherapist?
How long have you beencounseling people?
Why do you feel like this wouldbe a successful partnership?
Why do you think that you're agood?
I wouldn't say that to atherapist, but I did say that to
this coach that I interviewedand I really liked her and,
quite frankly, if I think you'rea badass, I'm like God.
(27:03):
I just want to like, know youand be your friend and learn
from you.
And so you know, in this caseI'm paying her to learn from her
, to have her pour into me,because I feel like she's
further down the path of success, what I think a woman in
success needs to or should looklike in some ways.
But I would ask a lot ofquestions, get references, who
(27:25):
you know like.
You can't do that as atherapist because they can't
give you their butt.
But you can say I'd love toknow your credentials and how
long you've been doing this, andyou can ask a therapist if
they're in therapy.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
They don't have to tell you that, but the best ones
in my experience will tell youhave to tell you that, but the
best ones in my experience willtell you when is a pastoral
counselor, when is that a goodperson to go to.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Laura, here's what I think If you are a member of a
congregation or a church of somesort or some organization where
you're meeting with like-mindedpeople believing in a similar
faith and pursuing a deeperfaith in that place, I think
that it's really smart to bedialed into a small group or a
(28:08):
group of people who are holdingyou accountable to your core
values and what you believe in.
I think that it is appropriatethat if you're getting married
in a religious setting, if youhave a faith that you're tied to
that, it would make sense tomeet with your pastoral, the
person who pastors you, and talkabout what a successful
(28:29):
marriage and partnership mightlook like in that scenario.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
So awkward First marriage.
The guy that married his friendof the family and like family
to me, like I love him so much,but because he was a preacher,
like it's part of his thing,like if I'm'm gonna do your
thing, you got to come to theseaccounts.
It was so awkward, it was justterrible and awkward and of
course that marriage didn't last.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
uh, but whatever, I just look back at that and just
cringe so much and I think again, this is about being a willing
participant when you you, youshould be a willing participant
of what it is that you aresigning up for, because, one, if
you're not bought in, it ain'tgoing to work anyway.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Two, Will I agree with this 100%.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
But two.
I'll tell you you have to lookat the church community, the
people of like-mindedfaith-oriented believers that
you're surrounding yourself in,Whatever you're believing in,
like-minded faith-orientedbelievers that you're
surrounding yourself in,whatever you're believing in,
and you should only be lettingthe ones that you admire the way
that they're living pour intoyou.
(29:28):
If you are not a good studentof their life and know, wow, I
really like the way they'reliving and showing up, you
probably shouldn't let anybodythat you don't have an intimate
connection with, unless you'repaying them and they are
licensed.
Um, so those are my, that's mytwo cents.
That's the way that I live inmy faith.
(29:49):
I'm not saying that's right,but that's what I would
recommend.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Yeah, and I feel like what you just hit on the
hypocrisy in some situations andthe way people like what is
preached and what is actually.
I think that's a big reasonpeople are leaving organized
religion as well.
I think a lot of times peopleare seeing that and like what.
Unfortunately not you know, alot of times it's the other way
around.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I know, especially if you've had a role at a church,
I think sometimes you get to seebehind the curtain and you
understand there's a whole lotof humanity that live in these
spaces and what that means isthese are also broken people.
There's no perfect peopleanywhere, like Will likes to say
, but there's specifically noperfect people living leading
(30:29):
religious organizations.
There's no pastor.
That's perfect.
There's no pastor's wife that'sperfect.
There's no coach within thatorganization that's perfect,
just like there's no perfecttherapist.
However, there are people thatcan lead you to your healing.
Just make sure you're askinggood questions before you hire,
before you sign a document,before you do anything and
(30:50):
understanding.
Is there recourse there?
If someone's making me sign acontract, guess what?
I'm gonna make sure thatcontract serves me as much as it
serves them.
So I'm gonna to come after youif you make me sign a contract
and then you blow up my life.
Okay, just know that about me.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
You read all the fine print.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I have attorneys for that.
You should pay someone else.
All the smart people that aregood at details they do that for
me.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I would never fully read fine print.
God knows what I've signed inmy life read fine print.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
God knows what I've signed in my life.
Thank you, lindsey miller, foryour team of smart people who
read things and tell people toraise things recently, like it's
terrible, but someone uh hadfood.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Let's just say this they had food poisoning at
disney world, and do you?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
know this person.
No, this is a news story.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
This is a big news and, uh, it's so severe that it
was whatever.
They end up suing because, youknow, for they actually died.
The person died.
Right, that's not, but I didn'twant to like ruin the funny
story with that, but that's whatI was saying.
They just said food clear spacewhatever.
So the family, like you know,sued and had really good reason
to.
But he had signed when he triedthe Disney Plus free month
(32:00):
trial by clicking, acceptingwhatever.
He had agreed to never be ableto sue any Disney entity ever
for anything.
Yeah, by clicking on the trialfor Disney Plus.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
The old fine print gets you every time.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
And in that there was a thing about you can't sue
Disney but my wife can and Iwould have her sue.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
A thing about you can't sue Disney but my wife can
and I would have her sue youbecause she didn't click on it
and she would like to still sue.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
How crazy is that?
Because, like everybody, that'sso awful yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
That's terrible and so scary.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Hey, I hope y'all practice hygge today Hygge.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Hygie.
Is it hygie?
No, but that's how it spellsright, it looks like Hy-gee.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
I used to say that too.
Oh, I've never heard of ituntil today, and we're all going
to go get electronic socks.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
And aren't we proud of me for not interrupting the
podcast to make you guys look atthe snow outside, because it
was snowing really hard at onepoint.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Okay, happy.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
New Year, guys.
Happy New Year Before you.
Cut Bangs is hosted by LauraQuick and Claire Feerman and
produced by Will Lockamade.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Follow along with us everywhere.
Please subscribe to the podcast.
Find us on Instagram.
We're constantly doing polls.
We want to know what you think,and I know that you probably
know this, but reviewing us andgiving us five stars matters
more than anything, and we areso grateful to have you here.
Welcome to, before you Cut Bangs.
I'm Laura Quick and I'm ClaireFehrman.
I am a professional storytellerand I'm currently working on my
first book.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I have worked in mental health for many years in
lots of capacities and this is areally important time to tell
you our big disclaimer this isnot therapy.
We are not your therapists orcoaches or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I mean, you shouldn't really trust us very
much at all, unless you want toand it turns out well, then you
can trust us.
That's great.
I have a confession, oh okay,okay.
On the way here this morningwhen I texted and said I was
running a bit behind, which isobviously I knew yourself to a
(00:46):
great start being on time.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I wasn't going to mention that.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I don't want to hear it.
What I learned about myself isI looked for my phone in my
house for a substantial amountof time before I realized that
it was in my back pocket.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I thought you were going to say your hands.
Me too, back pocket's a littlebit better.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I mean I was like where is it?
I just had it and then only tofind it in my pocket.
It was a dark time for me.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Okay, I just I feel like we need to really set the
record straight on who we are aspeople.
When you guys were on the wayhere, it was snowing, like it
started flaring for a minute andthen like for five minutes like
dang it is like snowing,snowing, uh, which is my
favorite thing in the world.
How are we on snow and winterweather in all?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
all around winter weather I also saw snow this
morning, like big snowflakesfalling at my house, and I was.
You know, there was this partof me that's like oh.
I love it like a hallmark film,like happy ending, you know um.
And then there was this otherpart of me that is like no, I'm
terrible at snow, I don't evenown the right, and you don't
(01:56):
like deeply cold weather forseveral days either.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Can't do it oh yeah, heads weeks.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, I know I'm already a little dead inside.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I'm wearing heated socks right now.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
I'm so jealous.
That's a battery pack.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
And you just plug it in like USB-C.
Oh right, what?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
do they charge?
Well, I need to go wherever yougot those and get some.
What about you?
You obviously are a snowbird.
I winter, well, I winter well,she winters well.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I love it because I know it's temporary and y'all
know I love that Nordiclifestyle of hygge.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Say more.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, I don't know, y'all don't know what that is.
What is that?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Hygge.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So it's spelled H-Y-G-G-E, okay, but pronounced
hygge, it's very like Danish.
Don't quote me on the Danish,but Nordic for sure I get.
I'm not great at geography, butcold Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I'm not Mappy either.
I'm not going to test you on it.
Gotcha, you're like point toAmsterdam right now.
Show me on that, I can't.
How many hours does it?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
take.
So this, it's the idea of likeyou kind of just know that it's
going to be dark and cold andquiet, so you do things that are
cozy.
It's basically cozy living.
Like you dress really cozy Uh, Iguess electronic socks follow
in that category but like lotsof like wool and blankets and
(03:24):
sweaters and fires, warmbeverages, like always, and
really warm foods, and so youjust take care of yourself and
then you're supposed to havereally dim light, so like lots
of candles and lamps, and it's atime to like be with the people
that you really like, and thenyou know that when spring and
summer come, the days aredifferent.
(03:44):
So it's just this idea of likeI'm going to give into this and
so I love it I think leaning inis a lot better than fighting it
.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I get so mad, I'm like pumped.
I put on 14 sweaters and aturtleneck and layer up and then
you know 10 minutes and I'mlike who agreed to this?
This is bullshit.
Where are my heated socks?
Like I don't uh.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I don't obviously want anybody to be hurt or you
know, uh, whatever, but like icestorms, everybody hates.
I love it.
I love something exactly if Ican be stuck at home and play
it's like then that's what I getto do is like play and go,
slide around and stuff.
Like the night beforesnowmageddon he was supposed to
snow like one to three inchesthat next day, and then that
(04:27):
night before is like it's notgoing to do anything and I was
so frustrated it was going to bereally cold so I iced down the
front yard so we could stillsled.
Then, of course, it iced in amajor snowy way and we were
stuck here for a week, which wasgreat because we're not alabama
people.
This was like 2013 14 maybe,yeah, okay, something like that,
and the town shut down.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Oh, and I will say even last year, when we got some
stuff, if you're in alabama ora really southern state that
doesn't see a lot of winterweather, we have no skills well,
we don't, uh, we have noinfrastructure.
Yeah, that's what I meannobody's salting our roads, and
(05:08):
here's what happens.
You have a bunch of 16 to 17year olds who are like I'm gonna
get my hair done, I need to goto Sephora, and then they're all
out on the roads no, you have16 and 17 year olds being like I
gotta make out with myboyfriend.
Well, I wasn't gonna throwy'all under the bus like that,
but there she did it, so therewe go.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I will say also like up in new york a couple years
ago.
They had a very similar stylestorm where it was like the ice
and snow mixed together and theyit was exact same.
They were all stuck for days onthe road.
So that was like a veryspecific storm where you could.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
There was nothing, I mean I think like the difference
is they know to stay home andpeople in Alabama are like, nah,
we're going to go ahead.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I have my Ford F-150.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
We'll put it in four-wheel drive.
Hey, Shane will kill me fordoing this, but he literally had
to call a dude to find out howto use his four-wheel drive on
his truck.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I was like, oh, I'm glad you bought that.
I think any man would be upsetabout that I don't know.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I think he thinks it's funny Because he was like I
don't know.
You know he bought that thingjust to.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, so bring on all the snow.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
All right, so super fun topic idea.
This is from a fan.
I'm not going to mention hername Therapist, Because I am a
relatively educated woman.
But I didn't realize thedifference between pastoral
counselors and licensedtherapist.
And oh boy did I get completelyscrewed over by a non-licensed
(06:36):
pastoral female counselor inBirmingham who marketed herself
as a therapist, had a signed andsigned air and agreement about
confidentiality and how she'donly meet with both of us
present.
Then broke all of it.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Wait, wait.
Both of us meaning a couple, aspouse.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Okay, okay and, tragically, no way to file a
complaint that I'm aware of.
And posting reviews ispointless because I don't feel
like the world knowing about ourexperience.
So, yeah, maybe a primer on thedifferent types of therapist.
Premiere episode I don't know.
I'm not sure why she saidprimer, licensed chair, why it
(07:16):
matters and what to expect ifsomeone is going to a pastoral
counseling route, because thischick is all over Birmingham
self-promoting and speaking atconferences which is where I
first heard her speak and thenstupidly wasted years and a lot
of money on quote counselingthat ultimately nearly tanked
our family.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I had no idea we're gonna have to tiptoe around
defamation, uh stuff in this onewell, the good news is, we're
not gonna say her name.
I don't, she didn't tell me.
She didn't tell me.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
The less we know, the better yes, so we don't know
who this person is, but one ofthe things that I do know for
sure, um, is because I'm such ahuge mental health advocate that
I hear so many times how peoplegot burned by therapists.
And then, when I ask morequestions, I find out very
(08:08):
quickly that it was a churchcounselor, a counselor, a coach,
kind of showing up in thistherapeutic way without having
the licensing to back it, and Ithink that this is a good.
Well, we're going to talk abouta couple things today.
We're going to talk about thiswhat's the difference between a
counselor and a therapist, and apastoral person in your life
(08:32):
who maybe is guiding you, versusactually seeing a licensed
therapist?
but we're also going to talkabout why y'all are all calling
me right why everybody blowingup Claire's phone and my phone
like, do you know, a goodtherapist I'm like.
You know, let me get you thelist, let me connect you with
Claire.
So that's what we're talkingabout today so let's give our.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I guess we can call her a fan, but maybe a listener.
Can you make up a name for her,just so I have some somebody to
reference.
Amanda, amanda, okay.
So Amanda wrote us about thishorrible experience and she used
the word pastoral counselor.
Is that right?
Okay?
So I want to be clear on thefront end for therapists.
So my licensure is licensedprofessional counselor.
(09:12):
So when you hear counselor,that's not a red flag.
There's plenty of licensure forcounselor, but my master's was
marriage and family therapy.
So, like you, just everyone hasto kind of relax about those
terms.
When you're licensed, in moststates you can either be
counselor or therapist, andthey're very similar.
Where things go wacky and wonkyis in religious settings.
(09:38):
You can decide what you are andthen they're really like one of
my friends her mother got a umdoctorate of wisdom just online
and so doctor, whatever is thatlike my phd in difficult men, is
that what you have?
I always say that okay I think Ido, but do you have a piece of
(10:00):
paper?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I'm, I'm an ordained minister with a piece of paper,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So there's lots of things that you can just kind of
wake up Google and get acertificate on, so obviously our
pastor here Will is one ofthose people.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I also have a piece of paper.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
She has written for the—.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
I just gave myself this license, but that's pretty
equivalent to what, what?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I'm up against okay.
So I went to so much school,years of years and years of
hours to get and let's talkabout that, because I don't
think people understand.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I know that I didn't understand, understand this
until I became like really closefriends with you.
The qualifications, not justthe schooling.
So let's just go ahead andthrow it, throw out.
You gotta have five to sixyears of school.
I had seven, seven years ofschool.
Then on top of that, how many?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
hours did you have?
So it depends on your licensure.
Licensed marriage and familytherapists usually have the most
.
That's why I didn't do that.
Um, I was just ready to go, butsomewhere between three and
6,000 hours depending, that's alot of work.
If, by the way, um, that's alot of free work a lot of times,
um, because you're oftentimesan intern, I had a great
(11:11):
opportunity and got paid duringthat time because I wouldn't
have been able to do it, butyou're giving a lot of time to
people.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, I mean, I was gonna say in the like, uh,
online ordained minister thingso I could do this wedding, the
first one.
I was frustrated with how easyit was.
I was like looking forward tomaybe taking some test.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Some kind of 10 question thing.
Nothing.
You put your information in andspits out a piece of paper.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
And I think that that's something I always
encourage people.
So kind of what I was sayingabout the frustrations that I
feel like I get to capture asbeing like an advocate.
I mean like always reach out ifyou ever want to, if you're
curious about therapy or you'reready to start your therapy
journey, like I'd love to tellyou about why I did it and like
the benefits and whatever.
And then you get these horrorstories and a lot of what I
(11:57):
understand is just because youmet a person or you found them
online does not mean they'regoing to be your guru.
That's right, okay.
So if you're not asking greatqualifying questions to these
people and digging into theirexperience, man, I think that's
kind of a different definiteprerequisite of like get, find
(12:19):
out more.
What would be those questions?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Okay, so I want to.
So I can't say this moreclearly enough If you have not
read Maybe you Should Talk toSomebody, or Maybe you Should
Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb.
It is the and I am so antiself-help psychology.
All those books really bore me.
She's so good, so good.
She goes through her owntherapeutic journey as a
(12:44):
therapist, with the therapistand then what it's like to be a
clinician and it's the mostaccurate description.
And here's the big thing umcoaches and mentors super useful
.
I've had coaches and mentors.
Coaches and mentors can givereally specific um direction.
Hey, have you tried this?
Like career coaching, like youwant action steps, but a good
(13:07):
clinician, if someone sat downor actually I'm about to give an
example of a bad clinician ifyou sit across from a therapist
and they tell you what theywould do and you go do it and it
blows up your life.
That has caused a huge rupturein the client and therapist
relationship.
You can't trust that personanymore.
(13:27):
And then you're second guessinglike what have I told them?
And was that accurate?
Do I even trust myself?
So a therapist never, ever,ever gives advice.
They can say have youconsidered this thing?
What would it look like if youtried that and then you walk
them through it.
So a good therapist only asksthe right questions.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Right, a great therapist in my experience and
even being friends with you,claire has been that you get to
say, okay, but what's what?
What is the next step?
Like, how do you take your nextstep?
And and it's more of putting itback on me Like I'm the owner
of my life and a great therapistis just letting me hold,
(14:06):
holding up a mirror and lettingme see myself a little bit
better.
I mean, that's been myexperience, is that true?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah.
So when we hold up the mirrorand it's like, what would this
be like?
Or whatever the question is,and you have to look at yourself
, we're tolerating you in a waythat you've never tolerated you
before, and so then it gives youpermission to do something
different.
And I'm sure I've said this ina million other other episodes
of, like the unbiased witness isa good therapist, because we
(14:33):
sit here and you tell uswhatever it is.
You need to tell us Rememberthe chickens, remember the
chickens?
Uh, we just hold it, and Idon't mean hold it in silence, I
can't stand those therapists,okay, but we hold it and love
you anyways.
Or we ask these questions whereit's like gosh, that does sound
really hard.
Where else has that happened toyou before?
And so then you have to look atall those patterns that you've
(14:54):
been a part of.
So, like in good relationshipcounseling, everyone always
comes in to talk about theirpartner.
He did this, she does that, he,she, over and over again.
Finger point, finger point,finger point.
Until you change in therelationship, the relationship
doesn't change.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
A great therapist once said to me, more recent
than I'd care to admit can youask that person to leave the
room which is hilarious becausethey weren't actually in the
room but what was being said tome is you're letting this person
take over your session.
The only thing we actually havecontrol over today is you and
how you want to show up and thework you want to do, and I was
(15:32):
like it's the worst, so annoyingmel's up there laughing.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
It's the worst and the best and the best, and it
helped me a ton.
Let's go back to amanda'squestion.
Yes, um, so big differences.
Are a counselor and a therapist?
If they hold a license in thestate, have gone through
exceptional training, thatdoesn't mean they're the right
fit for you.
The right fit is absolutelyimportant.
Um, and then if someone is aspecific type of coach, like,
(16:01):
let's say, career coaching, youat least know what you're
getting into.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I just hired I, three weeks ago, started with my new
career coach or executive coach,and I use coaches to help me
with implementation.
So I've had one throughout mycareer.
I'm really have some big,audacious things.
I want to do with myself,career wise that person I hire a
coach, one like anything.
(16:26):
I'm not going to you to get myeyebrows done If you have crazy
eyebrows.
I am not going to work out andhave you tell me what to do if I
don't like the way your bodylooks.
Okay, I'm not letting you touchmy hair if you have crazy hair,
and I ultimately would not hirean executive coach if I don't
like the way their career hasgone.
So you have to haveaccomplished a lot, not just got
(16:49):
went online, because that iswhat happens with coaches they
go and get these certificationsand they're all of a sudden
they're a life coach or they'rean executive coach.
You need to be asking for theirresume if you're hiring these
people.
But they are way more aboutexecution.
How can I help you accomplishthe things you have on your goal
list, to-do list, team list,infrastructure, whatever?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
So coaching, the format is typically different.
So coaching is typically donein 30, 60 or 90 day increments,
like you're signing some kind ofcontract, like you're setting
really tangible goals, typicallythat you can kind of see and
check these boxes.
Coaching that I absolutely loveis what Laura's describing.
(17:32):
One of my best friends has acompany called Glide and it's
100% executive functioningcoaching, so it is ADHD.
If you're on the spectrum, likeall of these people that are
like man, I'm just getting stuck.
What do I need to do?
And they do everything fromlike, uh, budgeting, planning,
all of that.
Really a plus B equals C stuff.
So that is not red flagcoaching.
(17:54):
To me that makes a ton of senseand it really pairs well.
If you're doing the deep dark,somebody's holding up the mirror
to me.
So um, um and I don't want tojust like dog any kind of like
religious pastoral counseling.
I think that there's a placefor it however, we will.
I will, but I also.
I also will.
(18:16):
It's just not the same.
The training isn't the same.
Uh, there's no ability todiagnose.
They wouldn't even know what adiagnosis is or how to like have
the criteria to diagnose.
I mean, I guess anybody canGoogle anything, but it can be
very solution focused instead ofunderlying problems and issues
(18:37):
patterns.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
That's right, yeah, and I think, too, one of the
things that we've seen happen ina religion driven environment.
If a pastoral or like someonein a church is saying they're
counseling you, um, if youhaven't asked them what their
qualifications are, that's agreat place to start.
Like tell me about yourexperience, why do you feel like
(18:58):
you would be a good fit for me?
What are you?
What are we trying toaccomplish together?
One, you're allowed to askthose questions, but two, I
think it's really important thatwe just talk about the like big
ugly elephant in the room whichis we're living in.
What I would consider is themost church hurt generation of
all time.
(19:18):
People are leaving, uh,organized religion in in a mass
exodus.
I've never seen anything notjust christianity not just
christianity.
We're gonna say something no,I'm agreeing with you, yeah and
I think that when we think, whenyou ask people why they needed
a break or why they leftcompletely, what you hear over
(19:39):
and over again was one they puttheir faith in the people in
that organization, hoping theycould really help them, or
believing what they told them,and they got super let down and
hurt or even abused, likethere's a lot of that coming out
.
And so I would just say oneasking the right questions, but
(19:59):
two, just understanding.
I would just say one asking theright questions, but two, just
understanding that a church isthe hospital for the sick, for,
like the sick of heart, peopleare looking to gather with like
minded people who believesimilarly.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I don't know, if that's where you should go get
your mental health checked in,unless they actually have
licenses.
So if you Will fell down hisstairs the other night, okay, he
slipped, this is a real thing,that really happened.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
We did see the video and if you haven't seen the
video, it's on his Instagram.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
It's on my TikTok and Instagram and all that you need
to check it and let's say, whenWill did that, he landed on his
wrist and broke it.
He would I would say he wouldhave been insane if he drove to
a church to have that mended.
That is what we're seeing,where religion and mental health
(20:56):
care are having a bizarrecrossover.
So if you have chronicdepression like true major
depressive disorder or bipolaror even like some mild anxiety,
and you're driving into a church, a synagogue, whatever, or or
even like a yoga training whichI'm in, like people go there to
(21:16):
get well too.
I mean, it's all the same.
Um, who that felt risky to saybut whatever, if we're going
there, that is the same as mywrist broke.
So I drove to this building inhopes that they can talk me
through this, and that's nuts tome.
We just don't give mentalhealth issues as much
(21:37):
credibility as they deserve.
It's a deep wounding thatdeserves deep fixing and healing
.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Well, and it normally didn't show up just because you
have a symptom that pops up inyour life, because maybe your
anxiety is higher than it's everbeen, your depression is darker
than it's ever been.
Typically, those things are likeClaire was talking about, when
you hold up that mirror and youget to look in it and we get to
ask these and answer thesequestions that our therapist is
(22:04):
asking like, oh man, actuallythis does happen to me every
year at this time and whatever.
But if you're going to churchand you're trying to get your
wrist that is broken fixed,that's crazy.
The same way that if you'regoing to church or any organized
place where people who aresimilar with with similar
beliefs gather to buildcommunity and thinking that
(22:25):
that's where your healingmentally is going to come from,
that's it might be a component,but I don't think it's the
component.
I think we should be open tounderstanding.
I always it's like when Clay'slike I'm going to, I'm, I'm
planning events, now I'm like,oh, you're a professional event
planner, you know.
Sorry, clay, I love you.
You actually did a great job.
(22:45):
But if you're not aprofessional and if you don't
have the right, proper training,you can really hurt people.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
There's a state representative that has put this
bill up in Alabama.
That is would requirecounseling before any marriage,
before you could sign.
Like there are no more marriagelicenses in Alabama.
That's a whole different episode, uh, but there are marriage
contracts now that you get okay,and to this bill, if passed,
which it will not would say thatyou have to, you're required to
go to counseling before you dothat.
But the many concerns.
There are many concerns, butone of them is like yeah, then
people are going to be going toa bunch of unqualified people
(23:24):
who have no business tellingthem any advice.
That's right, and it's going toput people in financial burdens
that may not be able to affordcounseling.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
It's a whole thing, it's a cycle and I would say
Couple therapy is not covered byinsurance, by the way.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
No Right, that's what I'm saying Most therapy, even
now is not covered, or greattherapists, I find typically
don't.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Unfortunately, we don't take it.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yeah, sometimes we go into therapy and what we say it
is what it is, and sometimeswhat we say it's not even the
truth, but it's not what'sreally hurting us.
And a good therapist seesbeyond that.
A newer therapist not even badwill latch on to that Like
(24:07):
here's the presenting problemand they leave on the train.
But once you learn to thinkwhat is this really about, you
can start to do it.
So we're at Will's house today.
I used to live in thisneighborhood and in my first
marriage and I rarely thinkabout it when I come over here
but January of that year waswhen I knew that I wanted to get
(24:30):
a divorce and it was like superdark and when I was driving
over here I started crying likenot likeically my eyes were just
kind of burning and I had thiswhole thing of oh, I passed the
kids preschool, like theirpreschool is right down the
street and like just how manydays I sat in that line.
(24:51):
But I had not made theconnection about that.
This was the time of year Iknew the divorce was happening.
So my head starts going likeI'm.
I miss that when my kids arelittle and I need to do
something to feel better.
Right, like that's what I do.
I feel uncomfortable, need todo something to feel better.
And then I just like pause andask the question wait, what's
this really about?
(25:12):
Well, that this is the exacttime of year when I was so dark
and so sad and so lonely.
And I'm right back in the sameneighborhood and once I just sat
with that and I could just say,oh, that's grief, that's just
old grief that still lives in me.
Then I can pull in and keepdoing the podcast, like I don't
need to call my ex-husband, Idon't need to go pick up the
(25:33):
kids, I don't need to knock onthe preschool door, I don't need
to go change my medication,like.
But that's what we do.
We get so uncomfortable, likehere's the thing, so a newer
therapist might like have wantedto like go down that track or
do something to make that feelbetter, when really it was like,
oh, that was just old stuff andit got to come out today, last
(25:54):
thing, and then maybe I'll zipit.
I don't know, I would be verywary, is that?
the word Okay Alongside kind ofthis coaching thing.
I've seen a lot of peopledecide that they're nutrition
coaches and I work hand-in-handwith a lot of dieticians.
Dieticians go to almost thelength of schools as physicians
(26:17):
which is wild to me and soanyone can wake up and tell you
what to eat, what vitamins totake, blah, blah, blah.
They did not do the sameschooling and so be super aware
of, like when you're joining,like a challenge or a cleanse or
whatever.
People can wake up and whatworked for them they've assumed
(26:37):
works for you.
Same thing with mental healthcare.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, strong encouragements are don't be
afraid to ask people for theirresume.
How long have you been atherapist?
How long have you beencounseling people?
Why do you feel like this wouldbe a successful partnership?
Why do you think that you're agood?
I wouldn't say that to atherapist, but I did say that to
this coach that I interviewedand I really liked her and,
quite frankly, if I think you'rea badass, I'm like God.
(27:03):
I just want to like, know youand be your friend and learn
from you.
And so you know, in this caseI'm paying her to learn from her
, to have her pour into me,because I feel like she's
further down the path of success, what I think a woman in
success needs to or should looklike in some ways.
But I would ask a lot ofquestions, get references, who
(27:25):
you know like.
You can't do that as atherapist because they can't
give you their butt.
But you can say I'd love toknow your credentials and how
long you've been doing this, andyou can ask a therapist if
they're in therapy.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
They don't have to tell you that, but the best ones
in my experience will tell youhave to tell you that, but the
best ones in my experience willtell you when is a pastoral
counselor, when is that a goodperson to go to.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Laura, here's what I think If you are a member of a
congregation or a church of somesort or some organization where
you're meeting with like-mindedpeople believing in a similar
faith and pursuing a deeperfaith in that place, I think
that it's really smart to bedialed into a small group or a
(28:08):
group of people who are holdingyou accountable to your core
values and what you believe in.
I think that it is appropriatethat if you're getting married
in a religious setting, if youhave a faith that you're tied to
that, it would make sense tomeet with your pastoral, the
person who pastors you, and talkabout what a successful
(28:29):
marriage and partnership mightlook like in that scenario.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
So awkward First marriage.
The guy that married his friendof the family and like family
to me, like I love him so much,but because he was a preacher,
like it's part of his thing,like if I'm'm gonna do your
thing, you got to come to theseaccounts.
It was so awkward, it was justterrible and awkward and of
course that marriage didn't last.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
uh, but whatever, I just look back at that and just
cringe so much and I think again, this is about being a willing
participant when you you, youshould be a willing participant
of what it is that you aresigning up for, because, one, if
you're not bought in, it ain'tgoing to work anyway.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Two, Will I agree with this 100%.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
But two.
I'll tell you you have to lookat the church community, the
people of like-mindedfaith-oriented believers that
you're surrounding yourself in,Whatever you're believing in,
like-minded faith-orientedbelievers that you're
surrounding yourself in,whatever you're believing in,
and you should only be lettingthe ones that you admire the way
that they're living pour intoyou.
(29:28):
If you are not a good studentof their life and know, wow, I
really like the way they'reliving and showing up, you
probably shouldn't let anybodythat you don't have an intimate
connection with, unless you'repaying them and they are
licensed.
Um, so those are my, that's mytwo cents.
That's the way that I live inmy faith.
(29:49):
I'm not saying that's right,but that's what I would
recommend.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Yeah, and I feel like what you just hit on the
hypocrisy in some situations andthe way people like what is
preached and what is actually.
I think that's a big reasonpeople are leaving organized
religion as well.
I think a lot of times peopleare seeing that and like what.
Unfortunately not you know, alot of times it's the other way
around.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I know, especially if you've had a role at a church,
I think sometimes you get to seebehind the curtain and you
understand there's a whole lotof humanity that live in these
spaces and what that means isthese are also broken people.
There's no perfect peopleanywhere, like Will likes to say
, but there's specifically noperfect people living leading
(30:29):
religious organizations.
There's no pastor.
That's perfect.
There's no pastor's wife that'sperfect.
There's no coach within thatorganization that's perfect,
just like there's no perfecttherapist.
However, there are people thatcan lead you to your healing.
Just make sure you're askinggood questions before you hire,
before you sign a document,before you do anything and
(30:50):
understanding.
Is there recourse there?
If someone's making me sign acontract, guess what?
I'm gonna make sure thatcontract serves me as much as it
serves them.
So I'm gonna to come after youif you make me sign a contract
and then you blow up my life.
Okay, just know that about me.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
You read all the fine print.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I have attorneys for that.
You should pay someone else.
All the smart people that aregood at details they do that for
me.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I would never fully read fine print.
God knows what I've signed inmy life read fine print.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
God knows what I've signed in my life.
Thank you, lindsey miller, foryour team of smart people who
read things and tell people toraise things recently, like it's
terrible, but someone uh hadfood.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Let's just say this they had food poisoning at
disney world, and do you?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
know this person.
No, this is a news story.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
This is a big news and, uh, it's so severe that it
was whatever.
They end up suing because, youknow, for they actually died.
The person died.
Right, that's not, but I didn'twant to like ruin the funny
story with that, but that's whatI was saying.
They just said food clear spacewhatever.
So the family, like you know,sued and had really good reason
to.
But he had signed when he triedthe Disney Plus free month
(32:00):
trial by clicking, acceptingwhatever.
He had agreed to never be ableto sue any Disney entity ever
for anything.
Yeah, by clicking on the trialfor Disney Plus.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
The old fine print gets you every time.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
And in that there was a thing about you can't sue
Disney but my wife can and Iwould have her sue.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
A thing about you can't sue Disney but my wife can
and I would have her sue youbecause she didn't click on it
and she would like to still sue.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
How crazy is that?
Because, like everybody, that'sso awful yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
That's terrible and so scary.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Hey, I hope y'all practice hygge today Hygge.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Hygie.
Is it hygie?
No, but that's how it spellsright, it looks like Hy-gee.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
I used to say that too.
Oh, I've never heard of ituntil today, and we're all going
to go get electronic socks.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
And aren't we proud of me for not interrupting the
podcast to make you guys look atthe snow outside, because it
was snowing really hard at onepoint.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Okay, happy.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
New Year, guys.
Happy New Year Before you.
Cut Bangs is hosted by LauraQuick and Claire Feerman and
produced by Will Lockamade.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Follow along with us everywhere.
Please subscribe to the podcast.
Find us on Instagram.
We're constantly doing polls.
We want to know what you think,and I know that you probably
know this, but reviewing us andgiving us five stars matters
more than anything, and we areso grateful to have you here.
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