April 13, 2025 • 22 mins
Carl Panzram remains one of history's most fascinating yet forgotten monsters – a methodical killer whose path from abused child to international murderer exposes critical failures in our justice system that still resonate today.
Born to Prussian immigrants in 1891 Minnesota, Panzram's life trajectory was forever altered when, at just 11 years old, his family sent him to the Minnesota State Training School. Far from rehabilitation, this institution subjected him to systematic physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. In his own chilling words, this was where he "learned to hate," developing a worldview that would fuel decades of escalating violence.
What makes Panzram's case uniquely valuable is the extraordinary documentation of his crimes and psychology. After being arrested in 1928, he encountered prison guard Henry Lesser, whose simple act of kindness – giving Panzram a dollar for tobacco – prompted the killer to produce detailed autobiographical accounts of his life and crimes. These writings reveal a man of surprising intelligence and self-awareness who claimed responsibility for 21 murders across multiple continents, including a horrific incident in Angola where he executed six men after hiring them as hunting guides. Perhaps most remarkably, he successfully burglarized former President William Howard Taft's home, stealing jewelry and a gun he would later use in other crimes.
Panzram's story challenges us to examine how systems meant to reform troubled individuals can instead create monsters. His case represents a perfect storm of childhood trauma, institutional abuse, and philosophical darkness that culminated in a man who welcomed his own execution in 1930, spitting in his executioner's face with his final breath. For criminal psychologists, prison reformers, and anyone interested in the darkest corners of human behavior, Panzram's story offers invaluable insights into cycles of violence that, tragically, continue to this day. Subscribe now to explore more forgotten stories that illuminate the shadows of criminal history.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Some serial killers make the headlines, but the most
terrifying ones lurk in theshadows.
Their stories left untold.
Welcome to Behind theBloodstains, where we uncover
the dark and forgotten cases ofhistory's most elusive murderers
, from chilling crime scenes tothe twisted minds behind them.
We dive deep into the storiesthat never got their spotlight
(00:21):
until now, because everybloodstain has a story and some
are still waiting to beuncovered.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
This podcast contains disturbing content that some
listeners may find upsetting.
The following episode includesdescriptions of true crimes,
violence and discussions ofserial killers.
Listener discretion is stronglyadvised.
If you're sensitive to thesetopics, you may want to skip
this episode.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
So I've got something super interesting lined up for
today's episode of Behind theBloodstains, and I literally
couldn't sleep last nightthinking about it.
You know how we've covered somepretty dark stuff before right,
but this one, this one'sdifferent.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Oh, you're not kidding.
When you told me who we'd becovering today, I dove straight
into the research because, likethis case is absolutely
fascinating, we're talking aboutKarl Pansrum and, trust me,
he's probably one of the mostwell let's just say complex and
disturbing criminals we've everdiscussed.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I know you've done tons of research on this and
I've got so many questionsbecause, like, I've only
scratched the surface, but whatreally caught my attention was
the way he ended up documentingeverything that's actually one
of the most incredible parts ofthis whole story.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
we're dealing with someone who not only committed
these horrific crimes, butactually wrote about them in
detail, and and what makes thiscase so unique is that we have
this first-hand account of histhoughts, his motivations,
everything.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Oh my gosh, I can't wait to get into all of that
Like hmm, where do we even startwith someone like Karl Pansrum?
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Well, I think we need to start at the very beginning
because, trust me, every singlepart of his story plays into
what he eventually became.
And it's not just about thecrimes, it's about how society,
institutions and personalchoices all kind of created this
perfect storm.
So what we're looking at hereis a childhood.
That's just well, it'sabsolutely devastating.
Carl Pansrum was born inMinnesota right around 1891, and
(02:24):
from day one I mean literallyfrom the beginning life was
incredibly tough for him.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Like um what kind of environment was he growing up in
?
Speaker 4 (02:32):
So he was born into this immigrant family right
Prussian immigrants and theywere living on this farm in
Minnesota and things were just.
They were rough.
His father basically abandonedthe family when Karl was really
young, leaving his mom to tryand raise six kids on her own,
and they were living in completepoverty.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Oh my god, that must have been so hard on all of them
.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Exactly, and here's where things start getting
really dark.
By the time he was eight yearsold, like just a little kid, he
was already showing signs ofwell troubled behaviors and
instead of getting help, youknow what happened.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
At age 11, his family sent him to this place called
the Minnesota State TrainingSchool.
Wait, at 11 years old, whatkind of place was this training
school?
Speaker 4 (03:16):
That's the thing.
It wasn't really a school inthe way we think of schools.
It was basically a reforminstitution.
And what happened to him thereit's just absolutely horrific.
The staff there.
They would beat these kidsregularly.
They were talking aboutphysical abuse, emotional abuse
and Well, there was sexual abusetoo.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
That's just terrible.
How long was he there for?
Speaker 4 (03:39):
He was there for several years and it's where he
first experienced what he latercalled being reformed.
But here's the thing that'sreally crucial to understand the
reform school didn't actuallyreform him at all.
Instead, it's where he learnedto hate Like really hate.
He later wrote that this iswhere he learned that the only
way to deal with people wasthrough violence.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
So basically the place that was supposed to help
him.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Exactly.
It completely transformed himand not in any way that was
positive.
The abuse was systematic, itwas constant and it literally
shaped his entire worldview,like we're talking about a child
who went in with problems andcame out completely hardened.
And what's really telling isthat this wasn't just Pansrom's
account.
(04:23):
There were later investigationsthat confirmed just how brutal
these reform institutions were.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Um, what happened after he got out?
Speaker 4 (04:31):
So, after he was released, he was just got
completely different.
He started committing moreserious crimes, starting with
burglary and theft.
But here's what's reallysignificant he was carrying all
this rage, all this hatred fromhis experiences and the thing is
well, this was just thebeginning of what would become a
really long, really dark path.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
So, um, what kind of crimes are we talking about here
?
Like when did things startgetting really serious?
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Well, after leaving the reform school, panzrum
started with break-ins and theft.
But here's the thing he wasincredibly mobile and theft.
But here's the thing he wasincredibly mobile, like he'd
commit crimes in one state, moveto another, change his name and
just keep going.
He was really methodical aboutit.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Wow, so he was actually pretty organized then.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Absolutely, and what's really fascinating is
that he managed to escape frompretty much every prison they
put him in, like there was thisone time in Montana.
He broke out of jail, stole thewarden's gun and money and then
get this he actually used thewarden's own money to buy drinks
at local bars.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Oh my god, that's actually kind of Bold.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Yeah, and that was just the beginning.
He had this pattern where eachtime he'd escape, his crimes
would get more violent.
It's like every time he wentthrough the prison system he
came out more hardened, moreangry.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
So when did things start to you know, escalate
beyond just theft?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
That's a dark turn, and it happened gradually.
By 1920, he was doing more thanjust stealing.
He started carrying a gunregularly and his robberies
became more violent.
He'd beat and sodomize hisvictims and well, he started
viewing violence as this tool ofpower.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Um, that's really disturbing.
Was there like a specificmoment when things changed?
Speaker 4 (06:17):
There was this one incident that really marked the
shift.
After escaping from prison inOregon, he burned down the
prison chapel.
I mean, we're talking about$100,000 in damage in 1920s
money, and here's the thingthat's really crucial Quote.
He later said he did itspecifically as revenge against
organized religion, which heblamed for a lot of his early
(06:39):
suffering.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
At the reform school.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Exactly right.
And from that point on, hiscrimes just they became more and
more violent.
He started targeting anyone hesaw as representing authority or
power.
The thing is, he wasn't justacting randomly.
Every crime, every act ofviolence, it was all tied to
this deep-seated hatred that hadbeen building since his
(07:01):
childhood.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
So he was like targeting specific types of
people.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
In a way, yes, but it was getting less and less
discriminant.
See, by this point, his hatredhad become so, so
all-encompassing, thatpractically everyone was a
potential target, and what'sreally chilling is how
calculating he became.
Each crime was like building onthe last one, getting more
sophisticated, more violent.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
And then what happened, Like where did he go
from there?
Speaker 4 (07:30):
So this is where things get really intense.
In 1920, panzrum actuallymanaged to get work as a
merchant seaman, and that's whenhis crimes went international.
He worked his way to Africa,specifically Angola, and look
what happened.
There is just… it's absolutelyhorrific.
So in Angola, he hired sixlocal men to help him hunt for
(07:53):
crocodiles right, but that wasjust a cover.
He got them drunk and then… hemurdered all of them, just
executed them one by one, andthe thing that's really chilling
is how he described it later inhis confessions.
He was just… completelymatter-of-fact about it.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
That's… that's absolutely terrifying.
Like six people at once.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Yeah, and here's the thing that wasn't even close to
the end.
After Africa, he startedtraveling all over the world.
He later claimed that hecommitted murders in Africa,
south America and all acrossEurope.
We're talking about possiblydozens of victims.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Were all these claims like verified.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Not all of them, but enough were confirmed to make
his other confessions prettycredible.
See, Pan's Room had this reallyunique thing about him he was
brutally honest, like when heconfessed.
He wasn't trying to brag orexaggerate.
He was brutally honest, likewhen he confessed.
He wasn't trying to brag orexaggerate, he was just telling
it exactly as it happened.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So what kind of um, what sort of things was he doing
during this time?
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Well, besides the murders, he was committing
robberies, burglaries and youknow what's really fascinating?
In a horrible way, he actuallymanaged to rob William Howard
Taft's home in New Haven.
Like the former President ofthe United States, he stole
jewelry, bonds and a .45 caliberrevolver.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Wait, seriously, the actual President.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Absolutely, and what he did with those stolen items
is just.
It's like a perfect example ofhow he operated A or Y.
He used the money from sellingTaft's possessions to buy a
yacht, the Akista, and then hestarted using that yacht to rob
other boats and commit moremurders.
It's like each crime was justfeeding into the next one.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
How how is he getting away with all this?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
That's the thing.
He was incredibly smart andmethodical.
He kept moving, changing hisname, switching between
countries, and remember this wasthe 1920s.
No DNA evidence, nointernational databases, very
little communication between lawenforcement agencies.
He'd commit crimes in one placeand just vanish.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
And during all this time, like was he showing any
remorse at all.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Not even slightly.
In fact, he was developing thisreally dark philosophy about
humanity.
He would later write thatduring this period, every murder
, every violent act justreinforced his belief that all
humans were evil and deserved tosuffer.
And the scary part is, he wastotally lucid.
He knew exactly what he wasdoing.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
So what finally brought all this to an end?
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Well, in 1928, panzerum got caught during a
burglary in Washington DC, andthat's when things took this
really interesting turn.
Like this is where we startseeing a different side of his
story, because he met someonewho well, who actually treated
him like a human being.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Wait, who was that?
Speaker 4 (10:49):
That would be Henry Lesser, a guard at the
Washington DC jail.
And here's the thing Lesser didsomething that nobody had ever
done before.
He showed Panzrum actualkindness, like he gave him a
dollar to buy tobacco and justtalked to him, treated him with
respect.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And did that Like.
Did that change anything?
Speaker 4 (11:10):
It absolutely did.
See, panzrum was so moved bythis simple act of kindness that
he started opening up to Lesser, and I mean really opening up.
He began writing theseincredibly detailed
autobiographical accounts of hislife and crimes.
The writings were just brutallyhonest and totally uncensored
(11:30):
what kind of things did he writeabout?
so the writings were well, theywere intense.
He documented everything hischildhood, the abuse he suffered
, every crime he committed.
And the thing is he wasn'ttrying to justify anything, he
wasn't looking for sympathy, hewas just laying it all out there
, raw and unfiltered.
That must have been really hardto read.
Oh, absolutely.
(11:51):
And you know what's reallyfascinating?
His writing style wasincredibly articulate.
Like for someone who hadminimal formal education, he had
this really powerful way ofexpressing himself.
He wrote things like In mylifetime I have murdered 21
human beings, I have committedthousands of burglaries,
robberies, larcenies, arsons and, last but not least, I have
(12:13):
committed sodomy on more than1,000 male human beings.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Oh my god, and he was just just totally upfront about
all of it.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Completely.
And here's another interestingthing During his time in various
prisons, he became this sort ofwell infamous figure.
The guards knew him as thisincredibly dangerous prisoner,
but also as someone who wasterrifyingly intelligent.
He'd engage in thesephilosophical discussions about
human nature, society, religion,all while being one of the most
(12:43):
violent inmates they'd everencountered.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
So like did his relationship with Lesser
continue.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Yeah, it did right up until the end.
Lesser actually kept all ofPanzrum's writings, and thank
goodness he did, because they'vebecome some of the most
important documents we have forunderstanding the criminal mind.
They're just completely uniquein terms of their honesty and
self-awareness.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And was he writing all this from one prison or?
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Actually, he was transferred around quite a bit.
He spent time in multiplefacilities, but the most
significant was LeavensworthFederal Penitentiary, and that's
where well, that's where thingswould eventually come to an end
.
But the writings he producedduring this period, they're just
, they're absolutely crucial tounderstanding who he was and
what made him tick.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
So what?
What happened at Leavenworth?
Like how did things end?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Well, this is where the story takes its final dark
turn.
In 1929, while at Leavenworth,Pansrum killed a civilian
employee named Robert Warren Kaywho was working in the prison
laundry and you know what'sreally chilling he just he did
it with an iron bar, right infront of everyone.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Oh my god, but like, why would he do that?
Speaker 4 (13:56):
That's the thing he later said.
He did it just to ensure he'dget the death penalty.
And well, he got exactly whathe wanted they sentenced him to
death by hanging.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
And how did he react to that?
Speaker 4 (14:07):
So get this.
He welcomed it.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
That's absolutely terrifying.
Did anyone try to stop theexecution?
Speaker 4 (14:15):
You know what's fascinating?
Some people actually did try tosave him.
There were anti-death penaltyactivists who wanted to appeal
his case, but Panzram he, wantednothing to do with it.
He actually wrote them thisletter saying the only thanks
you and your kind will ever getfrom me for your efforts on my
behalf is that I wish you allhad one neck and that I had my
(14:35):
hands on it.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
So he actually wanted to die.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
He absolutely did.
And on September 5th 1930, theycarried out the execution and
right up until his final momenthe stayed totally consistent
with who he was.
When they put the noose aroundhis neck, the executioner said I
hope you die easy.
And Panzerum just spat in hisface and said yes, hurry it up.
(15:00):
You, who's your bastard?
I could kill a dozen men whileyou're screwing around.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
And what about his like, his legacy?
What impact did his case have?
Speaker 4 (15:09):
See, that's where things get really interesting.
Panzrum's case has had thisprofound impact on criminal
psychology and our understandingof violent offenders.
His writings, which, Lesserpreserved, they've become this
invaluable resource for studyingthe criminal mind.
They provide this uniqueinsight into how childhood
trauma, institutional abuse andsocietal factors can shape
(15:31):
someone's path to violence.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Has it changed anything about how we you know
how we handle these cases now.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Absolutely.
His case has influencedeverything from prison reform to
rehabilitation programs.
It's really highlighted theimportance of early intervention
in troubled youth and it's madeus question the effectiveness
of punitive measures versusrehabilitation.
And you know what's reallysignificant?
His story has become thispowerful argument both for and
(15:58):
against capital punishment,depending on how you look at it.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
In what way?
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Well, on one hand, you've got this person who
seemed completely beyondrehabilitation and actually
wanted to die, but on the otherhand, his case really shows how
the system itself might havehelped create the monster it
ended up having to destroy.
It's like this perfect exampleof what happens when society's
approach to criminal justice ispurely punitive.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
You know, I've been thinking like what actually goes
on in the mind of someone likePanzrum.
What makes someone become thisway?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
That's such a complex question and Panzrum's case is
particularly fascinating becausehe was incredibly self-aware.
See, most violent offendersdon't have this level of this
kind of insight into their ownpsychology, but Panzrum he
actually wrote extensively aboutwhat he believed, made him who
he was.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Really, what did he say about himself?
Speaker 4 (16:51):
So here's the thing he directly linked his violent
tendencies to his experiences asa child.
He wrote, and I'm quoting hereI was so full of hate that there
was no room in me for suchfeelings as love, pity, kindness
or honor or decency.
And he traced all of that backto his earliest experiences with
institutional abuse.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
But lots of people have terrible childhoods and
don't become you know.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
That's absolutely right and that's what makes this
case so interesting from apsychological perspective.
With Panzram, we're looking atthis perfect storm of factors.
First you've got the severechildhood trauma, then there's
the systematic institutionalabuse and on top of that he
developed this incredibly darkphilosophical worldview what
(17:36):
kind of philosophical views arewe talking about?
so get this.
Pansram developed this beliefthat human beings were
fundamentally evil and corrupt.
He didn't see himself as somekind of exception to humanity.
He saw himself as the pureexpression of what humanity
really was.
He believed society's moralswere just like this thin veneer
(17:58):
covering our true nature.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
That's… that's really intense, Like how did mental
health professionals analyze hiscase?
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Modern psychologists have identified several key
factors in Panzram's psychology.
First, there's clear evidenceof antisocial personality
disorder, but it's combined withthis remarkable intelligence
and self-awareness.
He displayed all the classictraits Lack of empathy,
inability to feel remorse,extreme aggression—but he could
articulate his motivations inways that most criminals simply
(18:28):
can't.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Did anyone ever try to help him Like?
Was there any attempt attreatment?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
And that's another fascinating aspect of his case.
In those days, the concept ofrehabilitation was pretty much
non-existent.
The system was purely punitive,which just reinforced Panzrum's
worldview.
Every time he encounteredauthority, it just it confirmed
everything he believed abouthuman nature.
How so.
Think about it.
(18:53):
From his earliest experiencesat reform school, what he
learned was that power equalsabuse.
The people who were supposed tohelp him just hurt him instead.
So he developed this philosophythat the only truth in life was
power and violence.
Everything else kindness,morality, reform he saw it all
(19:14):
as lies.
People tell themselves.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
That's so sad, Like it almost seems like the system
created exactly what it wastrying to prevent.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
That's exactly right, and what's really powerful
about Panzram's case is how itillustrates this vicious cycle.
The abuse he suffered made himviolent.
His violence led to punishment,and the punishment just
reinforced his beliefs abouthumanity.
It's become this textbookexample of how institutional
failure can actually perpetuatecriminal behavior rather than
(19:43):
prevent it.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
So what can we actually learn from Panzram's
case, like, how does this relateto what we're doing today with
criminal rehabilitation?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
You know, what's really striking about this case?
It's that so many of thesystemic issues Panzram faced
they're still relevant today.
Issues pans from face they'restill relevant today.
The way we handle juvenileoffenders, the conditions in our
prisons, the whole approach torehabilitation these are all
things we're still grapplingwith are things getting any
better though?
well, there's definitely beenprogress since pans rooms time.
(20:15):
We're seeing more emphasis onmental health treatment,
trauma-informed care andactually trying to understand
what drives criminal behavior.
But here's the thing we'restill seeing many of the same
patterns of institutionalfailure that Panzrum experienced
.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
God, that's really concerning.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
It absolutely is, and I think that's why Panzrum's
story remains so important.
It's this incredibly starkreminder of what happens when
the system fails completely,like.
His case really shows us thatif we want to prevent creating
more Karl Pansrooms, we need tofundamentally rethink how we
approach rehabilitation andcriminal justice.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Thanks for sharing this incredible story with us on
Behind the Bloodstains.
I know it's been pretty heavy,it's been intense, but these are
the stories we need tounderstand.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
Pretty heavy, it's been intense, but these are the
stories we need to understand.
They show us where we've beenand, more importantly, they
point us toward where we need togo, and that's what makes them
worth telling.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
And that's all we've got time for today.
Everyone, thank you so much forlistening.
The world is full of shadowsand some monsters never make the
headlines.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
But here, in the dark corners of history, their
stories will be told.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Thanks for joining us on this journey into the
headlines.
But here, in the dark cornersof history, their stories will
be told.
Thanks for joining us on thisjourney into the unknown.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to subscribe, leave a
review and share with fellowtrue crime fans.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Follow us on social media for updates, exclusive
content and more chillingstories.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Until next time, stay curious, stay cautious and
remember behind every bloodstainthere's a story waiting to be
uncovered.
Some serial killers make the headlines, but the most
terrifying ones lurk in theshadows.
Their stories left untold.
Welcome to Behind theBloodstains, where we uncover
the dark and forgotten cases ofhistory's most elusive murderers
, from chilling crime scenes tothe twisted minds behind them.
We dive deep into the storiesthat never got their spotlight
(00:21):
until now, because everybloodstain has a story and some
are still waiting to beuncovered.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
This podcast contains disturbing content that some
listeners may find upsetting.
The following episode includesdescriptions of true crimes,
violence and discussions ofserial killers.
Listener discretion is stronglyadvised.
If you're sensitive to thesetopics, you may want to skip
this episode.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
So I've got something super interesting lined up for
today's episode of Behind theBloodstains, and I literally
couldn't sleep last nightthinking about it.
You know how we've covered somepretty dark stuff before right,
but this one, this one'sdifferent.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Oh, you're not kidding.
When you told me who we'd becovering today, I dove straight
into the research because, likethis case is absolutely
fascinating, we're talking aboutKarl Pansrum and, trust me,
he's probably one of the mostwell let's just say complex and
disturbing criminals we've everdiscussed.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I know you've done tons of research on this and
I've got so many questionsbecause, like, I've only
scratched the surface, but whatreally caught my attention was
the way he ended up documentingeverything that's actually one
of the most incredible parts ofthis whole story.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
we're dealing with someone who not only committed
these horrific crimes, butactually wrote about them in
detail, and and what makes thiscase so unique is that we have
this first-hand account of histhoughts, his motivations,
everything.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Oh my gosh, I can't wait to get into all of that
Like hmm, where do we even startwith someone like Karl Pansrum?
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Well, I think we need to start at the very beginning
because, trust me, every singlepart of his story plays into
what he eventually became.
And it's not just about thecrimes, it's about how society,
institutions and personalchoices all kind of created this
perfect storm.
So what we're looking at hereis a childhood.
That's just well, it'sabsolutely devastating.
Carl Pansrum was born inMinnesota right around 1891, and
(02:24):
from day one I mean literallyfrom the beginning life was
incredibly tough for him.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Like um what kind of environment was he growing up in
?
Speaker 4 (02:32):
So he was born into this immigrant family right
Prussian immigrants and theywere living on this farm in
Minnesota and things were just.
They were rough.
His father basically abandonedthe family when Karl was really
young, leaving his mom to tryand raise six kids on her own,
and they were living in completepoverty.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Oh my god, that must have been so hard on all of them
.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Exactly, and here's where things start getting
really dark.
By the time he was eight yearsold, like just a little kid, he
was already showing signs ofwell troubled behaviors and
instead of getting help, youknow what happened.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
At age 11, his family sent him to this place called
the Minnesota State TrainingSchool.
Wait, at 11 years old, whatkind of place was this training
school?
Speaker 4 (03:16):
That's the thing.
It wasn't really a school inthe way we think of schools.
It was basically a reforminstitution.
And what happened to him thereit's just absolutely horrific.
The staff there.
They would beat these kidsregularly.
They were talking aboutphysical abuse, emotional abuse
and Well, there was sexual abusetoo.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
That's just terrible.
How long was he there for?
Speaker 4 (03:39):
He was there for several years and it's where he
first experienced what he latercalled being reformed.
But here's the thing that'sreally crucial to understand the
reform school didn't actuallyreform him at all.
Instead, it's where he learnedto hate Like really hate.
He later wrote that this iswhere he learned that the only
way to deal with people wasthrough violence.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
So basically the place that was supposed to help
him.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Exactly.
It completely transformed himand not in any way that was
positive.
The abuse was systematic, itwas constant and it literally
shaped his entire worldview,like we're talking about a child
who went in with problems andcame out completely hardened.
And what's really telling isthat this wasn't just Pansrom's
account.
(04:23):
There were later investigationsthat confirmed just how brutal
these reform institutions were.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Um, what happened after he got out?
Speaker 4 (04:31):
So, after he was released, he was just got
completely different.
He started committing moreserious crimes, starting with
burglary and theft.
But here's what's reallysignificant he was carrying all
this rage, all this hatred fromhis experiences and the thing is
well, this was just thebeginning of what would become a
really long, really dark path.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
So, um, what kind of crimes are we talking about here
?
Like when did things startgetting really serious?
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Well, after leaving the reform school, panzrum
started with break-ins and theft.
But here's the thing he wasincredibly mobile and theft.
But here's the thing he wasincredibly mobile, like he'd
commit crimes in one state, moveto another, change his name and
just keep going.
He was really methodical aboutit.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Wow, so he was actually pretty organized then.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Absolutely, and what's really fascinating is
that he managed to escape frompretty much every prison they
put him in, like there was thisone time in Montana.
He broke out of jail, stole thewarden's gun and money and then
get this he actually used thewarden's own money to buy drinks
at local bars.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Oh my god, that's actually kind of Bold.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Yeah, and that was just the beginning.
He had this pattern where eachtime he'd escape, his crimes
would get more violent.
It's like every time he wentthrough the prison system he
came out more hardened, moreangry.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
So when did things start to you know, escalate
beyond just theft?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
That's a dark turn, and it happened gradually.
By 1920, he was doing more thanjust stealing.
He started carrying a gunregularly and his robberies
became more violent.
He'd beat and sodomize hisvictims and well, he started
viewing violence as this tool ofpower.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Um, that's really disturbing.
Was there like a specificmoment when things changed?
Speaker 4 (06:17):
There was this one incident that really marked the
shift.
After escaping from prison inOregon, he burned down the
prison chapel.
I mean, we're talking about$100,000 in damage in 1920s
money, and here's the thingthat's really crucial Quote.
He later said he did itspecifically as revenge against
organized religion, which heblamed for a lot of his early
(06:39):
suffering.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
At the reform school.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Exactly right.
And from that point on, hiscrimes just they became more and
more violent.
He started targeting anyone hesaw as representing authority or
power.
The thing is, he wasn't justacting randomly.
Every crime, every act ofviolence, it was all tied to
this deep-seated hatred that hadbeen building since his
(07:01):
childhood.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
So he was like targeting specific types of
people.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
In a way, yes, but it was getting less and less
discriminant.
See, by this point, his hatredhad become so, so
all-encompassing, thatpractically everyone was a
potential target, and what'sreally chilling is how
calculating he became.
Each crime was like building onthe last one, getting more
sophisticated, more violent.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
And then what happened, Like where did he go
from there?
Speaker 4 (07:30):
So this is where things get really intense.
In 1920, panzrum actuallymanaged to get work as a
merchant seaman, and that's whenhis crimes went international.
He worked his way to Africa,specifically Angola, and look
what happened.
There is just… it's absolutelyhorrific.
So in Angola, he hired sixlocal men to help him hunt for
(07:53):
crocodiles right, but that wasjust a cover.
He got them drunk and then… hemurdered all of them, just
executed them one by one, andthe thing that's really chilling
is how he described it later inhis confessions.
He was just… completelymatter-of-fact about it.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
That's… that's absolutely terrifying.
Like six people at once.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Yeah, and here's the thing that wasn't even close to
the end.
After Africa, he startedtraveling all over the world.
He later claimed that hecommitted murders in Africa,
south America and all acrossEurope.
We're talking about possiblydozens of victims.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Were all these claims like verified.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Not all of them, but enough were confirmed to make
his other confessions prettycredible.
See, Pan's Room had this reallyunique thing about him he was
brutally honest, like when heconfessed.
He wasn't trying to brag orexaggerate.
He was brutally honest, likewhen he confessed.
He wasn't trying to brag orexaggerate, he was just telling
it exactly as it happened.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So what kind of um, what sort of things was he doing
during this time?
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Well, besides the murders, he was committing
robberies, burglaries and youknow what's really fascinating?
In a horrible way, he actuallymanaged to rob William Howard
Taft's home in New Haven.
Like the former President ofthe United States, he stole
jewelry, bonds and a .45 caliberrevolver.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Wait, seriously, the actual President.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Absolutely, and what he did with those stolen items
is just.
It's like a perfect example ofhow he operated A or Y.
He used the money from sellingTaft's possessions to buy a
yacht, the Akista, and then hestarted using that yacht to rob
other boats and commit moremurders.
It's like each crime was justfeeding into the next one.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
How how is he getting away with all this?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
That's the thing.
He was incredibly smart andmethodical.
He kept moving, changing hisname, switching between
countries, and remember this wasthe 1920s.
No DNA evidence, nointernational databases, very
little communication between lawenforcement agencies.
He'd commit crimes in one placeand just vanish.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
And during all this time, like was he showing any
remorse at all.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Not even slightly.
In fact, he was developing thisreally dark philosophy about
humanity.
He would later write thatduring this period, every murder
, every violent act justreinforced his belief that all
humans were evil and deserved tosuffer.
And the scary part is, he wastotally lucid.
He knew exactly what he wasdoing.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
So what finally brought all this to an end?
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Well, in 1928, panzerum got caught during a
burglary in Washington DC, andthat's when things took this
really interesting turn.
Like this is where we startseeing a different side of his
story, because he met someonewho well, who actually treated
him like a human being.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Wait, who was that?
Speaker 4 (10:49):
That would be Henry Lesser, a guard at the
Washington DC jail.
And here's the thing Lesser didsomething that nobody had ever
done before.
He showed Panzrum actualkindness, like he gave him a
dollar to buy tobacco and justtalked to him, treated him with
respect.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And did that Like.
Did that change anything?
Speaker 4 (11:10):
It absolutely did.
See, panzrum was so moved bythis simple act of kindness that
he started opening up to Lesser, and I mean really opening up.
He began writing theseincredibly detailed
autobiographical accounts of hislife and crimes.
The writings were just brutallyhonest and totally uncensored
(11:30):
what kind of things did he writeabout?
so the writings were well, theywere intense.
He documented everything hischildhood, the abuse he suffered
, every crime he committed.
And the thing is he wasn'ttrying to justify anything, he
wasn't looking for sympathy, hewas just laying it all out there
, raw and unfiltered.
That must have been really hardto read.
Oh, absolutely.
(11:51):
And you know what's reallyfascinating?
His writing style wasincredibly articulate.
Like for someone who hadminimal formal education, he had
this really powerful way ofexpressing himself.
He wrote things like In mylifetime I have murdered 21
human beings, I have committedthousands of burglaries,
robberies, larcenies, arsons and, last but not least, I have
(12:13):
committed sodomy on more than1,000 male human beings.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Oh my god, and he was just just totally upfront about
all of it.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Completely.
And here's another interestingthing During his time in various
prisons, he became this sort ofwell infamous figure.
The guards knew him as thisincredibly dangerous prisoner,
but also as someone who wasterrifyingly intelligent.
He'd engage in thesephilosophical discussions about
human nature, society, religion,all while being one of the most
(12:43):
violent inmates they'd everencountered.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
So like did his relationship with Lesser
continue.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Yeah, it did right up until the end.
Lesser actually kept all ofPanzrum's writings, and thank
goodness he did, because they'vebecome some of the most
important documents we have forunderstanding the criminal mind.
They're just completely uniquein terms of their honesty and
self-awareness.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And was he writing all this from one prison or?
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Actually, he was transferred around quite a bit.
He spent time in multiplefacilities, but the most
significant was LeavensworthFederal Penitentiary, and that's
where well, that's where thingswould eventually come to an end
.
But the writings he producedduring this period, they're just
, they're absolutely crucial tounderstanding who he was and
what made him tick.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
So what?
What happened at Leavenworth?
Like how did things end?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Well, this is where the story takes its final dark
turn.
In 1929, while at Leavenworth,Pansrum killed a civilian
employee named Robert Warren Kaywho was working in the prison
laundry and you know what'sreally chilling he just he did
it with an iron bar, right infront of everyone.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Oh my god, but like, why would he do that?
Speaker 4 (13:56):
That's the thing he later said.
He did it just to ensure he'dget the death penalty.
And well, he got exactly whathe wanted they sentenced him to
death by hanging.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
And how did he react to that?
Speaker 4 (14:07):
So get this.
He welcomed it.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
That's absolutely terrifying.
Did anyone try to stop theexecution?
Speaker 4 (14:15):
You know what's fascinating?
Some people actually did try tosave him.
There were anti-death penaltyactivists who wanted to appeal
his case, but Panzram he, wantednothing to do with it.
He actually wrote them thisletter saying the only thanks
you and your kind will ever getfrom me for your efforts on my
behalf is that I wish you allhad one neck and that I had my
(14:35):
hands on it.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
So he actually wanted to die.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
He absolutely did.
And on September 5th 1930, theycarried out the execution and
right up until his final momenthe stayed totally consistent
with who he was.
When they put the noose aroundhis neck, the executioner said I
hope you die easy.
And Panzerum just spat in hisface and said yes, hurry it up.
(15:00):
You, who's your bastard?
I could kill a dozen men whileyou're screwing around.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
And what about his like, his legacy?
What impact did his case have?
Speaker 4 (15:09):
See, that's where things get really interesting.
Panzrum's case has had thisprofound impact on criminal
psychology and our understandingof violent offenders.
His writings, which, Lesserpreserved, they've become this
invaluable resource for studyingthe criminal mind.
They provide this uniqueinsight into how childhood
trauma, institutional abuse andsocietal factors can shape
(15:31):
someone's path to violence.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Has it changed anything about how we you know
how we handle these cases now.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Absolutely.
His case has influencedeverything from prison reform to
rehabilitation programs.
It's really highlighted theimportance of early intervention
in troubled youth and it's madeus question the effectiveness
of punitive measures versusrehabilitation.
And you know what's reallysignificant?
His story has become thispowerful argument both for and
(15:58):
against capital punishment,depending on how you look at it.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
In what way?
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Well, on one hand, you've got this person who
seemed completely beyondrehabilitation and actually
wanted to die, but on the otherhand, his case really shows how
the system itself might havehelped create the monster it
ended up having to destroy.
It's like this perfect exampleof what happens when society's
approach to criminal justice ispurely punitive.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
You know, I've been thinking like what actually goes
on in the mind of someone likePanzrum.
What makes someone become thisway?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
That's such a complex question and Panzrum's case is
particularly fascinating becausehe was incredibly self-aware.
See, most violent offendersdon't have this level of this
kind of insight into their ownpsychology, but Panzrum he
actually wrote extensively aboutwhat he believed, made him who
he was.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Really, what did he say about himself?
Speaker 4 (16:51):
So here's the thing he directly linked his violent
tendencies to his experiences asa child.
He wrote, and I'm quoting hereI was so full of hate that there
was no room in me for suchfeelings as love, pity, kindness
or honor or decency.
And he traced all of that backto his earliest experiences with
institutional abuse.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
But lots of people have terrible childhoods and
don't become you know.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
That's absolutely right and that's what makes this
case so interesting from apsychological perspective.
With Panzram, we're looking atthis perfect storm of factors.
First you've got the severechildhood trauma, then there's
the systematic institutionalabuse and on top of that he
developed this incredibly darkphilosophical worldview what
(17:36):
kind of philosophical views arewe talking about?
so get this.
Pansram developed this beliefthat human beings were
fundamentally evil and corrupt.
He didn't see himself as somekind of exception to humanity.
He saw himself as the pureexpression of what humanity
really was.
He believed society's moralswere just like this thin veneer
(17:58):
covering our true nature.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
That's… that's really intense, Like how did mental
health professionals analyze hiscase?
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Modern psychologists have identified several key
factors in Panzram's psychology.
First, there's clear evidenceof antisocial personality
disorder, but it's combined withthis remarkable intelligence
and self-awareness.
He displayed all the classictraits Lack of empathy,
inability to feel remorse,extreme aggression—but he could
articulate his motivations inways that most criminals simply
(18:28):
can't.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Did anyone ever try to help him Like?
Was there any attempt attreatment?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
And that's another fascinating aspect of his case.
In those days, the concept ofrehabilitation was pretty much
non-existent.
The system was purely punitive,which just reinforced Panzrum's
worldview.
Every time he encounteredauthority, it just it confirmed
everything he believed abouthuman nature.
How so.
Think about it.
(18:53):
From his earliest experiencesat reform school, what he
learned was that power equalsabuse.
The people who were supposed tohelp him just hurt him instead.
So he developed this philosophythat the only truth in life was
power and violence.
Everything else kindness,morality, reform he saw it all
(19:14):
as lies.
People tell themselves.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
That's so sad, Like it almost seems like the system
created exactly what it wastrying to prevent.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
That's exactly right, and what's really powerful
about Panzram's case is how itillustrates this vicious cycle.
The abuse he suffered made himviolent.
His violence led to punishment,and the punishment just
reinforced his beliefs abouthumanity.
It's become this textbookexample of how institutional
failure can actually perpetuatecriminal behavior rather than
(19:43):
prevent it.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
So what can we actually learn from Panzram's
case, like, how does this relateto what we're doing today with
criminal rehabilitation?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
You know, what's really striking about this case?
It's that so many of thesystemic issues Panzram faced
they're still relevant today.
Issues pans from face they'restill relevant today.
The way we handle juvenileoffenders, the conditions in our
prisons, the whole approach torehabilitation these are all
things we're still grapplingwith are things getting any
better though?
well, there's definitely beenprogress since pans rooms time.
(20:15):
We're seeing more emphasis onmental health treatment,
trauma-informed care andactually trying to understand
what drives criminal behavior.
But here's the thing we'restill seeing many of the same
patterns of institutionalfailure that Panzrum experienced
.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
God, that's really concerning.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
It absolutely is, and I think that's why Panzrum's
story remains so important.
It's this incredibly starkreminder of what happens when
the system fails completely,like.
His case really shows us thatif we want to prevent creating
more Karl Pansrooms, we need tofundamentally rethink how we
approach rehabilitation andcriminal justice.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Thanks for sharing this incredible story with us on
Behind the Bloodstains.
I know it's been pretty heavy,it's been intense, but these are
the stories we need tounderstand.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
Pretty heavy, it's been intense, but these are the
stories we need to understand.
They show us where we've beenand, more importantly, they
point us toward where we need togo, and that's what makes them
worth telling.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
And that's all we've got time for today.
Everyone, thank you so much forlistening.
The world is full of shadowsand some monsters never make the
headlines.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
But here, in the dark corners of history, their
stories will be told.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Thanks for joining us on this journey into the
headlines.
But here, in the dark cornersof history, their stories will
be told.
Thanks for joining us on thisjourney into the unknown.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to subscribe, leave a
review and share with fellowtrue crime fans.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Follow us on social media for updates, exclusive
content and more chillingstories.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Until next time, stay curious, stay cautious and
remember behind every bloodstainthere's a story waiting to be
uncovered.
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