Behind the Build: Katherine Chia - Desai Chia Architecture - Behind the Build

Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Welcome to Behind the Build. I am your host Jonathan Jacobs,
and today I have with me a practice not from Canada,
actually based out of New York City.
I have a practice that focuses not solely on residential
architecture either. They have their hand in civic
work, they have it in cultural work, residential, commercial.

(00:30):
They've done product design, artistic collaborations, like a
whole variety of beautiful designs, and I have with me one
of the founders today. So without further ado, let me
say who this is we have today, Kathy Cha, co-founder and Co
Principal with her husband ArjunDesai of Desai Shah

(00:55):
Architecture. Kathy, thanks for joining.
My pleasure, nice to meet you. Likewise, you'll hear later in
my conversation with Kathy how much she values detail.
That idea that even the smallestdecision align in a drawing, or

(01:17):
the way light enters a space hasthe power to shape how people
live in it for decades. And it reminds me of something I
see every time I step into Caplan's appliances.
Kaplans isn't about selling boxes off of a shelf.
It's about curating the right details, the right products, the
way you actually live. They've built their Toronto

(01:38):
showroom around that philosophy,and it's constantly evolving.
Every manufacturer has its own dedicated environment, so you're
not walking past rows of machines under bright lights.
You're seeing how Sub-zero, Wolf, Neeley, Jenn-air,
Thermador Fisher, and Pikel and La Cornue work as a part of a
real kitchen, and the Kaplans team treats every speck like it

(02:01):
matters. Because it does.
In custom homes and renovations,millwork is built around exact
dimensions, and your lifestyle is built around how those
appliances perform every day. Kaplan specialists don't just
hand you a brochure. They walk you through the
options, help you narrow down the choices without overwhelming
you, and make sure every detail aligns with the bigger picture.

(02:25):
It's the same mindset Kathy brings to architecture, rigor,
craft and care, and it's why I trust Kaplan as a partner in
this industry. Visit kaplans.ca, drop by their
showroom to see how they've elevated the experience of
choosing appliances into something thoughtful and
enduring, or e-mail me. It's Jonathan.

(02:46):
Jonathan at waldenholmes.ca, Kathy and I had a brief chat, I
would say, what is it about a month, about a month ago where
we just kind of talked about theidea of doing this.
And we had a really, really fun,well, how would the house would
describe what other objectives can I use here?

(03:07):
Just a really fun open conversation about industry and
about the concept of what this podcast is about.
And when I asked if you participate eventually, you
know, we said, yeah, OK. And so here we are.
And for those of you that are unfamiliar with Kathy and
Arjun's Immaculate work, I wouldhighly recommend that you go to

(03:29):
our Instagram profile where you'll be able to see some of
the projects that they want to feature.
But beyond hours, I would go to theirs, I would go to their
website. I'm a big fan.
So all that said, Kathy, let's talk about let's talk about your
early life. Let's talk about what what life
look for you at an early stage? What kind of led you down this

(03:49):
path into ultimately being a founder of a fantastic
architecture practice? Wow, we're going way back.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it will go as early as
you can take it. Well, when I was young, I always
enjoyed making things with my hands.
So that was something that, you know, has always kind of been a
part of just who I am. So whether it was drawing,

(04:14):
painting, collecting rocks and you know, doing things with them
as a small child, I really enjoyed that.
My grandfather was he did a lot of painting as a hobby and he
would take me to his workshop where he had both like a little
mini area for painting, but he also had a woodworking shop.

(04:34):
So I would basically hang out with him and watch him make
little projects and he showed mehow to make things.
Was it was it watercolor or acrylic?
What was he? Was he painting?
He was doing Chinese brush painting and Chinese
calligraphy. OK.
And then also making small little projects out of wood

(04:55):
wire, you know, metal. And he had this wood shop with
all these different tools. And I was fascinated by the
tools and, you know, just love to work on these little projects
with him as a child. And then as I started to sort
of, you know, go through the various stages of of school, I
became very interested in math as well.

(05:15):
So math for me was a passion. I almost Chamath major in
college, but at the end of the day, I ended up becoming a Fine
Arts major. So I've always tried to balance
this interest in sort of math and cognitive skills with the
artistic side and looking at howart can create inspiring

(05:37):
experiences for people. And architecture was kind of the
fusion of those two areas or those two disciplines.
So in college, I went to liberalarts college, Amherst College in
Western Massachusetts, got a liberal arts degree.
And liberal arts, for those who don't know that concept, is a
very broad based education. So it's fundamentally about

(05:58):
critical thinking and about interdisciplinary work and
pulling from different fields tounderstand the world around us
and how we can improve people's lives.
So at Amherst College, I studiedart, math, philosophy, theatre,
Greek, civilization, psychology,anthropology, you know, the

(06:19):
whole range of what I could get my hands on.
And at one point I was curious about architecture.
And my mother was actually the one who said even before going
to college, when I was in high school, she said you might want
to consider architecture as a future career.
And I wasn't really prepared forit at the time, but in college,
I definitely started to get curious about architecture.

(06:40):
And luckily I had folks at the college and advisor and faculty
members who were able to help mecarve out a path towards
architecture. So I ended up applying to
Graduate School and architectureand then got into MIT, went to
MIT for architecture school. I met my husband there.
And you know, we came out of MITa pretty tough time.

(07:03):
It was the early 90s, so a big recession here in the US, Super
challenging to, to find work. I almost went abroad to
Singapore to take a job there. That's how challenging it was to
find work in the US. But at the last minute, the
Singapore firm said, you know what, we have a place for you,
but the project we were going toput you on got put on hold.

(07:24):
So if you want to come over to Singapore and just hang out and
wait for the project to start, we're happy with that.
But that was not my idea of sortof, you know, taking the first
job and basically waiting aroundfor it in a foreign country.
So I said, you know, I'm going to stay in New York.
And then luckily there was a small position that opened up.
It was initially a part time jobat a firm, but I went in and I

(07:47):
said, you know what, I'm just going to do the best I can at
this very small task. And from there they offered me a
full time. So I think, you know, I always
tell people it doesn't matter how small or menial the task may
seem, do the best you can at it and prove people that prove to
people that you can really master it.
And that kind of grit allows youto to leap to other things.

(08:12):
Also add, I mean based on what you were saying is that you it's
never really too late to be ableto make a deviation in your path
when you're in school and pivot towards something that sounds to
be far more in line with what you're looking for that you
don't even know yet. That's true.
And I feel like, you know, especially nowadays the notion
of a pure profession or a pure field of study, it doesn't

(08:37):
really exist anymore. Maybe in the pure sciences it
does, but in all other professions, I think there are
many ways to pivot within the profession.
There are many ways to cross pollinate with other
professions. So I feel like people who
graduate from architecture school now, I believe a lot of
them pursue tangential related fields in architecture overtime,

(08:59):
you know, they do not all of them become pure architects in
the traditional way that I was, you know, that I pursued.
I think a lot of people will go into other aspects of the field
or kind of related professions, whether it's real estate, you
know, gaming, construction, evenworking in house in creative

(09:20):
areas of a company that might do3 dimensional design or have a
tangential relationship to the built environment.
But or teach, you know, so thereare a lot of different ways to
pursue an architectural, a career related to architecture,
but not necessarily be the traditional architect.
Yeah. You'll hear in just a moment how

(09:41):
Kathy describes her time studying in Copenhagen, how it
opened her eyes to architecture as something more than walls and
roofs, but as light, transparency, and connection.
That's what The Doors for You makes possible.
Since 2006, they've been shapingspaces through glass curtain
walls that turn landscapes into living backdrops, pivot doors

(10:03):
that feel like sculpture and motion, and lift and slide
systems that erase the thresholdbetween interior and exterior.
Their partners include Europe's finest makers, Reiners, Shuko,
Alloplastic, Alekperov, but whatsets them apart is the way they
carry vision from drawing to detail.
Every measurement, every shop drawing, every installation is

(10:25):
done in house with a precision that honors the architects
intent. And the result isn't just
performance, it's atmosphere. Rooms bathed in daylight,
boundaries dissolved, homes thatbreathe with their surroundings.
Like Kathy's work, their philosophy is that glass is
never background. It's the medium through which

(10:46):
architecture connects us to place, to light, to each other.
exploremorewiththedoorsforyou.comor visit their Mississauga
showroom or e-mail me. It's Jonathan, Jonathan at
waldenhomes.ca and I'm happy to connect you with their team.
Can I ask you what it, what it was like?
Because you, you kind of alludedto it when you were in school

(11:09):
and you were making your, your, the change in, in your focus.
And you said that you had met with some advisors at the
school. What was that framework like
when you were sitting down? Were you establishing the
concept of getting into architecture?
Were you sitting down with them to talk about what it would look
like and what other opportunities there were with
what your what your potential shift might be?

(11:30):
Do you remember that? Yeah, I mean, it's a 1920 year
old, you know, you don't know the full expanse of what's
available to you. And especially back then.
I mean, I'm a bit of a dinosaur.You know, I, I was in college
where there was no Internet, no,no, no way to share the wealth
of information that we have at our disposal now.
So I was just gathering information from, you know,

(11:53):
people I was chatting with and asking questions of.
So the, the advisor and the faculty at the college sort of
understood that I was trying to pursue architecture, understand
how how to pursue architecture. They didn't have specific course
offerings in architecture at thetime.
And at one point I took a week off and I went around and looked

(12:18):
at some architecture schools because I thought, you know,
maybe I should transfer. Maybe it's better for me to go
to an undergraduate architectureprogram.
And I did look at a few when I was, you know, touring around at
the end of high school to see ifthat's the direction I wanted to
go in. But I, I didn't necessarily find
the architecture school that I felt like, you know, I want to
make the leap and leave my current college and go to this

(12:39):
place. So as I talked to my advisor, he
said you should not go to architecture school as an
undergrad. You can go to architecture
school for Graduate School and you can always do that, But a
liberal arts education you can only get as an undergrad.
There's no graduate program for liberal arts per se.
So he said take all the classes that you can now that you won't

(13:01):
be able to take in an architecture grad school and use
that as the foundation for long term growth.
So I'd say that I may have takenkind of the slow road to get,
you know, to my end goal, which is to become an architect.
So I ended up doing 4 years as an undergrad of liberal arts
college and then three years of Graduate School in architecture.

(13:21):
But the long road has, I think served me well personally.
I mean, I feel like I've been able to carve out a professional
perspective that is interdisciplinary that does
continually allow me to learn new things from other
professions, from other people. So that critical thinking
approach and the liberal arts kind of interdisciplinary

(13:45):
connections that that I was trained for at a place like
Amherst College was really foundational to, to who I am now
as a person and, and how I thinkabout architecture.
So I was lucky that the faculty at Amherst said, don't leave the
college, you know, stay here, but we'll help you carve out
what you need in order to prove to a Graduate School you've got

(14:09):
the chops to to apply. So they introduced me to a local
architect in town. So I worked for a firm called
Gillian Kuhn Riddle and Gray Bill Gillen was a mentor to me
and and continues to be somebodywho's very, very supportive.
And then the college said, you know, just see if you can work

(14:29):
for firm in town. So I did that for like a month
during the winter break. I did that for a summer between
school years. And then they said, oh, they're
these study abroad programs. So maybe if you want to go
junior year abroad to Florence or Paris, or, you know, think
about some of these programs that you can apply to as an
undergrad. So I found one in Denmark, in

(14:51):
Copenhagen. It's run by the Danish
International Studies Program. It's still in existence.
And I had an amazing year. So I went and I took classes in
an architecture program for undergrads.
I'd say 95% of the students wereactually bachelors of
architecture students from undergraduate programs in the
US, Australia, and Britain. And I was one of the few people

(15:15):
who came who was really like, completely green, you know?
Just. Don't know background.
So I met some amazing students. They told me what it was like to
be in architecture school. They gave me insight into, you
know, what they were learning, what they were thinking about
the kinds of issues that they were grappling with.

(15:38):
Plus, you know, amazing faculty who were all trained architects
or teaching at the local Danish university in architecture.
And I lived with the Danish family.
So I had like total cultural immersion, which was amazing.
And I'm still in touch with the Danish family and I'm still in
touch with my class, many of my classmates from that program.
So, so that year allowed me to have in a way that insight into

(16:02):
at least the academic side of anarchitectural education and that
allowed me to say, OK, I, I could see myself pursuing this.
So I applied to Graduate School for architecture and went
straight after graduating from undergrad.
So I didn't take any time off. And then I did three years at
MIT at the Master of Architecture program there came

(16:25):
out and you know, it was, it wasa rough ride because early 90s,
as I mentioned, was full on recession, not a lot of work.
But in those first years, you know, I, I kind of found
opportunities to work for different architects and
eventually I was very fortunate to be able to find a position
with Maya Lin. So Myelin is an artist and an

(16:47):
architect, and I was allowed to do architecture and art projects
as her assistant, which was kindof the perfect marriage for me
of my interest in art and architecture, which had kind of
been nurtured through my undergraduate years.
And here was an opportunity for me to do both.
So I worked for her for three years and then Arjun and I, my

(17:11):
husband. So at the time, we were dating,
but we weren't yet married. But he was working in New York
as well for an architecture firm.
And we had both always considered opening an office
and, you know, putting up our shingle and kind of pushing
through, you know, our own interests and philosophy about

(17:32):
architecture. Episode Kathy talks about how
design has to respond to its setting, how form and landscape
can't be separated. That's exactly how a Quantum
Pools approaches water. They don't see pools as add-ons,
they see them as sculptural, site specific elements that work

(17:52):
with the contours of the land. A vanishing edge that carries
your eye to the horizon, a curved form that tucks into rock
or woodland, a surface that mirrors the sky as to the pool
feels like part of the terrain itself.
Every system is engineered for Canada's climate, but shaped
with an Italian design sensibility, organic forms,

(18:15):
natural finishes, and technologythat allows concrete free shells
to flex with the earth rather than fight it.
That means fewer cracks, more freedom and design, and the
ability to build on sites where conventional pool just wouldn't
work. Like Kathy's practice, a quanta
treats material, structure and environment as one composition.

(18:38):
The result isn't just a pool, it's an experience of land,
light, and water designed to last.
Discover more at aquanta.ca or e-mail me Jonathan Jonathan
waldenhomes.ca. So we, we were lucky in that a

(19:00):
friend of Arjun's from undergradgave us a project.
It was a, a Native American Indian tribe out in California
who wanted to do a children's learning centre, like a
children's recreation centre. So we started working on that
project, Moonlighting. And I also had gotten a project

(19:21):
through a friend who had mentioned us to one of their
friends. They bought an apartment so that
that friend of a friend hired usto do an apartment combination
for them in New York City. So we had these two projects.
We were sort of juggling Moonlighting and then Arjun
basically broke off 1st to kind of run the firm full time for

(19:41):
the first like 6 months. And then I joined him afterwards
and I transitioned out of Maas by helping to train her next
assistant to be able to do the art and architecture.
So I was lucky in that the, the job that I was in as an
assistant to my land, we were able to work out an arrangement
where over a period of I'd say 5to 6 months, I was able to

(20:06):
transition out of her office, train a new assistant to do the
architecture and the art with her and kind of work my way into
full time with Arjun at our firm.
So that was actually really nicethat it wasn't, you know, I
mean, we were, I was very transparent with my and you

(20:27):
know, we worked it out so she could have a smooth transition
and so could I. Then when Arjuni sort of, you
know, landed together to be fulltime at our office, you know, we
were kind of learning in a very organic way to put it politely.
We did not have a business plan.We did not have a business
manager or, you know, PR marketing person.

(20:48):
We were sort of wearing many hats, actually all of the hats
at the same time to to jump start the firm.
And I mean, this is an old saying that, you know, goes way
back, but architecture school doesn't really train you to run
the business. I think some schools now or
within, let's say the last 10 years have tried to put in

(21:09):
practice, you know, classes where they teach you a little
bit about business and how to think through, you know, all of
the requirements and needs to, to make your business
successful. If you're going to go off on
your own or even if you're working for another firm, but
had to think about the business side of, of the profession.

(21:30):
But you know, back then when we started the firm sort of 95 to
96, we were just learning, you know, from experience as we were
sort of rolling out the the projects and working with
clients. Kathy, were you scared?
You know, I think at that age you 1 is so naive, you just kind

(21:52):
of roll with it and you sort of feel like, you know, I'm going
to make this work and, you know,worse comes to worse, if it
doesn't work out, you know, one can always look for a job with a
firm. But we felt like we had enough
sort of gumption to to kind of make it work.
And we were getting referrals through friends and friends of
friends. So there was that, you know,

(22:13):
network that was helping us out for sure.
And luckily people liked the design approach that we had and
the aesthetic. And I think a lot of what goes
into building a small firm is also just the chemistry between
people. So when you hang your big firm,
you know, typically you don't always know who's gonna be on

(22:34):
the team to work on the project,but you just know the big firm
has executed. They do, you know, hopefully
great work with the smaller firm.
I think people are hiring for the personal chemistry.
And I think that's, you know, important for both sides to find
the right fit because at least at our firm, each project is so
meaningful and each project is anew exploration.

(22:55):
So to be able to go on that journey with a client who
appreciates that, appreciates that there's a process and it's
not always a linear process. And to have a client who also
wants to see the architect put, you know, unexpected ideas out
there for discussion, that's really important.
To us, I want to ask you a question on that topic.

(23:17):
So I'm, I'm glad that you went right there.
Like when you start out, you in some ways you want to just, you
want to get some projects and you want to be able to, you
know, bring some money in to make yourself feel like you can
do this. But you also might sometimes be
slightly concerned about our clients going to give you the
liberties to go out there and really push boundaries on what

(23:38):
they think they would be willingto accept for themselves.
So were you given those types ofof liberties from clients early
on or were you met with some trepidation and and uncertainty
from them? Like what did that look like?
Well, I think, you know, most clients have a certain amount of
trepidation about things. I mean, it's oftentimes, you

(24:00):
know, they're doing this project, if not for the first
time, you know, it's just a tremendous commitment for them.
You know, financial, it's a chunk of time in their lives and
architecture is very permanent. So once you build something,
it's going to be with you for, you know, let's say at least
five years, if not your lifetime, whether it's a
residence or, you know, in institutional project or a

(24:24):
commercial project. These these projects are meant
to be around for a long time andmeant to serve the folks who are
using the project for a long time and grow with them.
So I find that the clients that sort of can put their trust in
us are, are ones who listen carefully.
We don't always agree. We don't always, you know, end

(24:48):
up pursuing the scheme that let's say, you know, as an
architect, I would like to pursue, but we're pursuing the
project in a collaborative kind of mission driven way.
So the clients needs kind of fold into ideas that we're
bringing to the table and we, I always tell people, you know,
we're going to hustle a little bit.
You just have to expect that it's not personal.

(25:10):
You know, I'm not like if I pushback on a client, it's not
because of them personally. It's because I want to make sure
they get the best. And if a client pushes back on
me, I have to remember that theywant to make sure that long term
the project is, is fulfilling their goals and their dreams.
And I have to listen carefully because sometimes when clients

(25:33):
push back on us, I realize it's because there's some nuanced
aspect that they're trying to communicate.
But maybe because, you know, they, they can't draw it,
they're, you know, discussing itin a way to try and have us
understand some theme or some experience that's really
important to them. So I have to listen very
carefully to kind of parse that out because clients are often

(25:56):
made-up of many people. So if it's a family, you know,
I'm listening to, let's say, youknow, one or two parents, plus,
you know, perhaps the children or perhaps the in laws.
And if it's a company, I'm listening to many stakeholders
from different departments, and they won't always have the same
needs and goals. And sometimes the way they use

(26:18):
space is quite different. And when we do work for
institutions, you know, I'm looking at sometimes groups of
people that I don't even have access to.
Like a board of directors. For, for example, we do a
certain amount of work for Columbia University right now
and you know, there's a huge student population out there.
I'm not actually sitting down with the undergraduate class to

(26:42):
say, hey, what are you guys all think?
I'm receiving information, you know, from people at Columbia
who are saying, you know, these are the kinds of experiences the
students want. This is the way the faculty
works with students. And so I have to, I have to
think broadly about, you know, what each group needs and listen
really carefully when people, you know, give us feedback and

(27:04):
vice versa, when we give clientsfeedback, I'd like them to
listen as well. So I find that the chemistry
with our clients is fundamentally built on trust.
That's that's the number one thing that even if something
goes sideways or if the project needs further exploration and
further development, that the client trusts us enough to say,

(27:26):
I know you're going to get us there at the end.
Let's go through what sometimes is a little bit of a winding Rd.
process, but we'll get there in the end and let's you know, this
is a journey. So I think that's, you know,
that's really important. Is there is there a situation
you can think of in a project kind of early on in in the
practice where you really propose something that pushed

(27:49):
the boundaries for a client and they were hesitant, but they
said yes. And there was like this aha
moment for what you're gonna create for the business in terms
of like this, this now is going to be a real portfolio piece.
Well, let's see the LM Guesthouse which is on our
website, that was our very firsthouse and we had come up with

(28:12):
several schemes for the client and several configurations and
the arrangement of the sleeping,sleeping quarters on the inside.
We had a couple that were more conventional where like every
sleeping quarter is, you know, had a proper window and, you
know, kind of a fully enclosed room with the door, still a lot

(28:33):
of glass. And we were exploring, you know,
these multiple versions of, let's say, a slightly more
conventional arrangement for bedrooms.
But then we put out one concept where the bedrooms are more
internal, glass wraps all the way around.
You can create privacy by pulling these wood screens out.

(28:56):
And then the middle bunk room, instead of it being a full
bedroom, was just like a sleeve for sleeping because they
basically said this is going to be a guesthouse.
It's not, you know, our primary residence, right?
So we were really nervous. We put that in the presentation
and presented it and explained all the reasons why it's not
completely conventional, but whyexperientially it's pretty

(29:20):
powerful because you can walk around the whole perimeter
interior of the house and just be up against nature and glass
the whole time. And then we explain to them, the
bunk room being this screened off inner core, you know, how
beautiful it would be in the morning to wake up with the
raking light coming into those slats.
And you know what it means to sort of be, you know, cocooned

(29:40):
in. And after the presentation, we
paused and the client kind of looked at all the schemes and
then pointed to the one that was, you know, the most unusual
and said, I like this a lot. And so that was just a hint of
validation because we said, we always say to clients, look,
we're going to send you the presentation and we're going to,
you know, give you this deck, think about it for a week and

(30:03):
come back to us. You know, don't, don't feel like
you have to make a decision on the spot.
So they came back in a week and said, you know, that's the one
we really want to pursue. So experience.
When, when, when that happens, because I've never really asked
anyone this when that happens. You know, you wanna stay
reserved but excited, right? Do you not feel the need to,

(30:25):
like, get up like Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz and like, jump
up and click your feet together and, like, just throw your hands
in the air? Like, I cannot believe we're
gonna be able to do this. Well, that, you know, that
moment definitely is like sort of, you know, in, in one's gut
because, yeah, there's there's aglimmer here.
There's a glimmer of hope that something that is that the

(30:47):
client has never seen before, you know, that they're
gravitating towards it. And for us, it just opens up the
conversation, which is really nice.
You know, we again, I still haveto listen to understand why did
the client gravitate towards that scheme and what will make
it an enduring like a decision that they will not not regret

(31:11):
and an enduring experience for them going forward that they
will always see as like, you know, renewing and, you know,
really iconic for them now and in the future.
Like it can't be a one liner. It can't be just like this
gestural thing that's like cool for the first, you know, couple
visits and then it's like, oh, that's starting to feel old.

(31:34):
So we still challenge ourselves to say, OK, if they're going to
go and take up a bit of a risk and go with the scheme that, you
know, they would not have come up with on their own and they've
never seen before, We have to make sure it's gonna it's going
to be powerful for the long haul.
So the word timeless is one thatgets thrown around a lot, you

(31:55):
know, not only in our profession, but in, you know, a
lot of other creative professions.
You might want things that are timeless.
But it is really true that it's important to think about the
longevity of your project and how your client is going to
appreciate it over time. So, you know, there there's a
lot of brash architecture out there that is, you know, kind of

(32:17):
visually very compelling, very powerful.
But we always think about in thelong run are, are the buildings
that we build, you know, committed to the clients
experience for the long haul anddoes it provide, you know,
again, an enduring experience, something that will renew them
every time they go to the building?

(32:38):
And is the care that we put intothe project going to be
Stillwell received, you know, 10/15/20 years from now?
Because I think it's really important.
And this goes back to, I mean, this goes to notions of
sustainability and a lot of people don't really reference
when they talk about sustainablearchitecture.
But for us, buildings that survive and endure and maybe

(33:01):
they get renovated, you know, even from now, but they stand
the test of time. They're not going to get ripped
down. They're not going to get sort of
totally gutted out. You know, that side of
sustainability, of building, youknow, to last is I think really
important. Just some some basics for those
listening about this project. I mean, yeah, I'm assuming we'll

(33:23):
feature this on the on our Instagram account because of how
exceptional this project is. What actually one of my favorite
projects that you have it is it's it's all heated with
geothermal. It has won a ton of awards
throughout the US. It was and it was what completed
in 2013. So when you talk about a project

(33:44):
that can that can last and sustain you, you will see if you
go to Instagram what this project looks like and it looks
like it could have been designedand built 20252030.
Like this is really when you talk about a modern project, a
really exceptional project with.You know, Fast forward to the

(34:05):
Michigan Lake house. And what's interesting for us is
that client called us out of theblue and said, I saw this
guesthouse that you designed in the Wall Street Journal.
I saved the article. I think he he had held on to the
article for two or three years. And he said, I've been, you
know, searching for a firm that can produce that, you know,

(34:28):
something like this. And I just decided I'd give you
guys a call in the hopes that coming from New York wouldn't be
such an issue for you. And so we said, and this was
before the pandemic. So this is when typically, you
know, clients would want to meetface to face and they would tend
to, you know, hire somebody morelocal so they can have all the
local meetings. But we said we'd love to do a

(34:50):
project with you. And initially he said, I'd like
the LM guesthouse on my propertyin Michigan.
And I said, well, you know, we, we have these kinds of
conversations with clients a lotwhere they, they like a project
of ours. However, your site is very
different. Your needs are probably very
different and all of the experiences you've had in life

(35:11):
are very different from this other client.
So let's talk a little bit aboutyou.
Let's talk a little bit about your site and dive in a little
deeper. And then, you know, if we end up
coming to something like the Michigan or like the Ellen Guest
House, that's fine. But maybe we need to think,
think more specifically about a bespoke project for you.
And So what initially was a request to do the LM Guest House

(35:34):
in Michigan, the Michigan Lake House, which looks very
different but has a lot of similar themes and philosophies
from the LM Guesthouse and that client also, we had a very
similar experience. We presented to them, I think 3
different schemes for the house and they ended up, you know,

(35:56):
picking one scheme, but the roofwas something that we were still
struggling with and we were presenting these schemes, you
know, 3 dimensional with plans and, you know, sections and that
sort of thing, but said, you know, the roof, we're grappling
with the roof. It's not coming together yet,
but be patient, you know, we'll get there.
And again, this client incredibly trusting and willing

(36:18):
to go with the process. And then as we develop those
inverted butterfly roofs, which were inspired by some of the
local Fishtown architecture and themes that we had seen with the
erosion of the bluff on that edge of Lake MI.
So we could basically trying to capture the water with the house
and through environmental stewardship, through the

(36:40):
architecture, grabbed the water and pull it away from the bluff.
So the house acts as a giant kind of catch basin.
The roof is sort of a series of giant catch basins that grab the
water, moved them to scuppers. The scuppers transfer the water
to cisterns below, and then the water slowly moves away from the
bluff. Because are they French drains

(37:01):
below or they're they're Sistrans?
Sorry you. Said there are cisterns below
and we, you know, because we noticed that a lot of houses
that had not done that, there's a tremendous amount of erosion
on these 100 to 200 foot high cliffs that basically drop off
towards Lake MI. And we realized that, you know,

(37:21):
there was a performative aspect of the design that could also
result in incredibly beautiful vaulted spaces inside.
So. That outside.
And outside. So for those listening, you'll
see this, I'm assuming you'll see this project 2 on our
Instagram because I've got a feature this.
You've got this incredible cantilevered section with the

(37:44):
outdoor fireplace that in some ways, I don't know if I'm going
to call it, but like the Cove lighting, the the recessed
lighting within the the joist cavities.
And then you have the ability tosit out there.
And I'm just envisioning when I first saw this project before I
called you Kathy, I was thinkingabout sitting out there during a
rainstorm and having the sound on one side of crackling fire

(38:07):
and on the other side of the water shooting off and hitting
the stones that are below as it kind of dissipates into the
ground. And you have this immersive
experience outdoors, dry, maybe a little bit of mist on you.
But all of that while you can look out at the at the at the
lake and it is like that is an experience.

(38:29):
What the client had described tous is one of their kind of
images of of the site. They said, you know, it would be
beautiful if we could spend almost all Four Seasons outdoors
because we've got this incredible view of the lake.
We're surrounded by nature. And if only we were, you know,
covered and protected. So that came about, you know,

(38:52):
that whole concept of the 22 foot cantilever roof came about
because of this conversation we had with the clients.
And then they talked about how they, you know, loved building
the open fire. Should we have a fire pit?
So we did the two sided fireplace.
So, you know, one of the challenges I think for us is how
do you weave all of these, you know, really strong themes

(39:14):
coming from the client, coming from the site into an experience
that feels somewhat effortless or feels like it's integrated
beautifully. It's not forced.
And that takes a lot of effort and tussling and struggling.
And, you know, our patient, our clients are very patient in
terms of working through a process with us.
So we never, I never find that the first I, the first concept

(39:36):
or the first, you know, model weput in front of them is the one
we build. It's always, you know, an
evolution. It's always an iterative process
and you know, clients who like that journey and who like to be
part of that journey get really excited and then we can draw
even more feedback and more kindof nuanced themes from them As

(40:00):
they see what's developing, theystart to talk about.
Their own personal experiences, their own lives, their own
backgrounds in ways that are really quite revealing.
And again, this goes for not only residential clients, but
it's, you know, commercial institutional clients.
They, I think that process, you know, to have the patience for

(40:20):
the process does result in a much richer project.
So I have like multiple questions in my head that I want
to get out to you here. I'm trying to think of how to
categorize them. So give me a SEC.
So you go. So the LM House is one of the
first is, is the 1st house that you get to design, right.
And from there, were there others between the the

(40:45):
construction of LM House and Michigan house, were there
others of the portfolio that happened to be between or like
what did that look like? And so that's Part 1.
Part 2 is then how did you startto manage this kind of influx of
project that I'm assuming startsto come your way after winning

(41:05):
awards with LM House in terms ofthe operation, was it still just
the two of you or did you start to look at this and say, you
know, we're gonna need, we're gonna need some additional
support here? You know, we did start to hire,
I mean, we have a small firm, but we, we did hire, you know,
people who could join us on this, you know, this very

(41:27):
intense journey. Because when you're a small
firm, again, you know, everybody's wearing multiple
hats, which I think is a really great experience for a young
architect if they're interested in seeing how the sausage gets
made and having a more hands on role in that experience.
So being able to work through design and then construction

(41:48):
management, drawing sets, detailed drawing sets.
So I think that's really important.
What were some of the first roles that you had to fill?
Initially, the first people thatwe hired were really like junior
architects who were coming in and helping us with, you know,
model building and visualizationand early drawing sets, like

(42:11):
schematic design sets. And we've, you know, tried to
have people work through this early experiences and then, you
know, get into the CD set. So to see a project through from
concept into detail drawings andthen ideally through
construction. And so it's it's a very layered

(42:33):
experience in our office. I know a bigger firms, you know,
there's different structure thatmight be needed, but at our firm
it's sort of like you have to just dive in and be ready to
learn a lot but also participatein a lot of different
experiences. And So what did, what did the
practice look like? And were you were these hires in
the 90s or were these hires coming into the early 2000s?

(42:57):
See, in the 90s we did most of the work, just myself and Arjun.
So when we first started, we pretty much did everything just
the two of us. And then in the 2000s, we
started to, you know, hire and bring people in.
And I have to say that, you know, we've gone through, I

(43:17):
mean, you know, as a country, we've gone through multiple
recessions and, you know, economic ups and downs.
There was the blow up in 2008 and all of that.
And we've really tried to, you know, keep the staff going even
through the ups and downs. And, you know, same with
clients. I mean, we've had clients, you

(43:38):
know, drop off because of economic downturn.
So it's it hasn't. It's not a.
Straight path. Completely, yeah, you know,
simple thing in terms of runninga practice.
But we've had, you know, I thinkall of the projects that we've
built, we've really tried to inject design into every one of

(43:59):
those projects, regardless of budget, regardless of location
or size. And the work comes in waves.
It's not completely, you know, linear.
We don't have, we have very few projects where it's like 1
client for 20 years. You know, I know some retail
clients can be like that, where you can continue to roll out

(44:19):
projects one after the other. So our projects come in waves,
but we have been lucky that a certain number of projects are
repeat clients. So they might have one project,
there might be a pause for four or five years, then they'll come
back to us for another one. And then they refer us to
people. And then we do get a certain
number of clients through totally cold calls.

(44:40):
They'll see our our work, you know, somewhere in an article,
we're winning an award. So one can never judge where the
next project is going to come from.
We've had some clients call us for a very small project and it
turns into a huge project. And every now and then, you
know, we have a client who givesus a huge project and then they
decide I'm going to put it on hold.
You know, I'm going to kind of rethink.

(45:02):
So I'd say the business side of architecture is really, you
know, unpredictable. But it's important, I think to
have sort of a resilient personality and just say, you
know, it's going to be OK. We just have to keep looking
forward. Definitely learn from past
experiences, but not kind of getso bogged down in the moment

(45:24):
because for every downturn that our firm has been through, you
know, big sort of like global economic downturn, we've pulled
out of it. You know, it's been hard, but
you know, you, you pull out of it and you, you realize like
people will come to you if you put out really great work,
they're going to, things are going to resonate with a certain
group of people and, and they will seek out that quality work.

(45:47):
And So what, what has have you found in terms of the number of
projects? Has there been a point where you
felt like you actually had too many projects kind of busting at
the seams and then you realize, you know what, we actually need
to tone it down a little bit to be able to to control this.
Or have you always kind of been able to find that balance that
it works between those that you're on boarding, those in

(46:09):
construction, those nearing completion?
I think we've always managed to balance.
There have been times when a lotof work has either come in or
projects that were like, you know, paused for whatever reason
came back at the same time as other things.
So all of a sudden, like there was this massive crunch.
And I think the tricky part is just, you know, managing is as

(46:33):
managing it as an office and just making sure that the team
can work through projects in a methodical way.
And sometimes we do tell clientslike you need to give us a
little bit more time, right? So I don't have a problem with
saying that to a client, you know, especially if they come
back to us after, you know, a month or, or, you know, a year

(46:53):
or whatever it is and we're crunched.
I don't mind saying to them, like we're going to definitely
ease you back in now. But you know, just give us a
little bit of time to kind of really, you know, get everybody
sort of running with your job. I think that's just a matter of
communication. I mean, I think we communicate
clearly with your clients and ifthey appreciate what you do.
And again, it's about. Trust.
I was just going to say trust isthe other major factor there.

(47:16):
If they trust you to get the project done at the other end,
then or, you know, completed, you know, they'll, they'll work
with you on that. And then the in-house team, it's
important that they understand that, you know, we're all
driving towards the same goal, which is great project, happy
clients and learning. You know, I always tell people
like every experience is a learning experience.

(47:38):
So I, I think we're very fair interms of how we run the office.
You know, we don't do late nights, We don't force people to
work on the weekends. Every now and then we might have
a long deadline, but I'll tell people in advance and I'll say
you can do comp time or whatever.
So, but I do tell our team that we want them to push hard.
Like pushing for excellence is not, it's not easy.

(48:00):
It's not straightforward. It takes time, it takes a lot of
focus and effort. So we just have to commit to
that. And, and I always tell them,
look, if we need more time to dothat, tell me.
I'm not asking. You don't tell me the day before
the deadline. Right.
But I, I don't want people to feel like they've got to have,
you know, just endless nights and weekends to meet a deadline.

(48:23):
That's not, that's not a good way to think creatively.
So I always tell people like, ifyou need more time, just let me
know. We'll figure it out or we'll
change the the requirements for the deadline so we can still
produce, you know good quality package but a more limited scope
and the client can respond to that.
So, So what does it look like? What have you found is your

(48:45):
sweet spot in terms of like a project, project number?
Is there? Is it?
Would you like? Is your ideal to have, if you
could, 10 to 15 projects? Is that or more or less like?
What does that look like? You know, it's really hard to
answer that question because it's dependent on the size of
the project, the needs of the client.
You know, we have some projects where we're doing multiple

(49:09):
iterations and so that takes a long time.
So that takes, you know, just like, you know, is more work as
one project and then other projects are at a point where
they're essentially in construction administration.
And so we're executing, which still is a lot of time and
effort, but some of those projects we have a local

(49:30):
architect. Whenever we have to get on an
airplane, we usually try and have a local architect be under
our umbrella as our kind of, youknow, partner on the site, our
boots on the ground. So in those scenarios, you know,
maybe see a is not quite as intense on our part, but we're
really leaning on the AOR to do that.

(49:52):
So we try to balance out the workload across all these
different scenarios. You know, projects that are
super intense in SD where there's like multiple
iterations, a lot of, you know, we're going into it versus, you
know, project that might be in CA where our presence on the job
site, you know, is a more limited amount of time.

(50:12):
So we can kind of purse that outin a different way.
But Arjun and I are involved in every project, which can be
pretty exhausting because we we really care about every project.
But I think it's important and Ithink that's why clients do come
to us, because they know they'regoing to get at least one
principle, if not to like personally committed to the
project. OK.

(50:33):
And, and in terms of projects that are you and you just kind
of touched on IT projects that are not local, you know,
Michigan has being obviously oneof them, but you know, work in
Mexico. Like how, how does that, how
does that come to you? And what does that look like
when you're going through that process working on, you know, if

(50:53):
you're, if there is a courting process, what does it look like?
And when someone says, well, howare you going to manage this?
Well, I think the management side of it during construction
really comes through our local architect of record partner.
So for Mexico, we're doing a project in Costa Rica.
We have a project on the island of Barbuda.
So they're projects that are sort of all over the place.

(51:16):
The local architect is definitely somebody who is an
important collaborator with us. When we worked on the Michigan
Lake House, we had Ray Kendra ofEnvironment Architects, and Ray
has a firm of his own. He's talented architect in his
own right, but he was willing topartner with us and he, he

(51:39):
really was, you know, a great collaborator during CA and even
before that. Like we like to work with our
collaborating architects in a way that they provide us with
peer reviews. We talk about local conditions,
you know, aspects of, you know, local contractors and really try
and have them provide the, the local knowledge to help smooth

(52:02):
out the whole construction process.
But they provide that pretty early on.
And then right now we're workingon another project in Michigan,
a little South of of the Michigan Lake house.
And Sears Architects is our local architect of record.
And Rob Sears and his team have been great to, you know, work

(52:23):
with us through a lot of different kinds of issues and,
you know, help us pave the way. So we try to think about our AOR
collaborators as just like embedded in our team.
So we, we work as one. So the clients not hiring 2
firms and I actually set up our our agreements with the clients

(52:43):
that way that they're they're hiring our firm.
The AR is listed and acknowledged, but you know, we
work as a conjoined team. I think that's really important.
Yeah. So when when you look at the the
evolution of your practice and you think back to the time in
which you were, you know, leaving the the other practice

(53:06):
and starting this with Arjun, Can you or do you ever have
those moments where you are ableto actually stop and sit back
and say like, look at what we have been able to do and
accomplish over the last 30 years of the practice?
Like it's it's from designing the first renovation to
award-winning homes. I just feel like sometimes you,

(53:29):
it's, it's easy to get caught upin, in the going of the of the
practice and not you can't, you can't take the lens and sit back
and look at it at all. Do you, how do you get those
moments? Do and I think it's very much
trying to be disciplined about those moments.
I think Arjun's much more disciplined about that and he

(53:51):
does kind of say, hey, we need to look at what we've done, but
look at where we want to go as well.
So, you know, the, and there aremoments when, for example, we
were doing a lot of residential work and we were sort of
reflecting on that and we were saying, oh, you know, it would
be really nice to do more work for institutions and commercial

(54:15):
clients and expand the kind of work that we do and push
ourselves, you know, to try a different typology.
And we reached out to a couple of real estate brokers that we
know, and they were kind enough to recommend us.
And we started to get commercialwork.
And then clients of ours said, oh, you know, I love my home.

(54:37):
If you can do for my office whatyou did for my home and create
these welcoming environments anduse materials to make people,
you know, sort of feel like the offices of destination they want
to go to and make our clients feel excited about coming to our
office, that would be great. And we said, yeah, we could
certainly do that. So it opened up a number of
conversations, these moments of reflection.

(54:58):
And then it opened up, you know,between Arch and myself.
But then it opened up conversations with other people
to say, oh, yeah, there are other possibilities out there.
Same with institutional work. So we do a certain amount of
work for Columbia University right now.
And it was that same kind of epiphany.
We were looking at our our commercial work and our

(55:19):
residential work and saying we could potentially impact the
lives of students and faculty atuniversities and colleges with
the same, you know, kind of exciting moments of design that
would make their spaces places of destination and places of
collaboration and community on auniversity campus.

(55:42):
And luckily I was chatting with a fellow architect and she said,
oh, let me introduce you to somebody who's at Columbia,
maybe they could give you some advice.
And that person ended up saying,let me put you on a list for
consideration. So, you know, these things kind
of happen just somewhat organically, but somewhat

(56:03):
intentionally. So when you sort of think about
where you want to go, you start telling people about it.
If they see that you have the talent and potential to go
there, they can make some introductions.
We're starting to do some cultural work now.
So, you know, that's also springboarding off of some past
cultural work we've done as wellas institutional work,

(56:24):
commercial work. So, you know, I feel like every
past experience has its place tobe the springboard for the next
the next move. And it's just important to to
put oneself out there. So I think that's maybe the the
challenge for us right now is, and I think it's or, you know,
the ongoing challenge for a lot of firms is presenting yourself

(56:45):
and marketing yourself in a way that gets you out there in a
genuine way. You know, you don't want to
oversell, you don't want to, youknow, pretend to be something
that you're not. You want to be genuine.
Our goal right now is to, you know, obviously continue to do
great work in any typology, but we certainly are very excited
about the work that we're doing more of on the institutional

(57:08):
side with universities. Yeah.
And to be able to do work with cultural institutions.
So I think that the, the reflective part of, you know,
what anybody to go through, whether it's in their personal
lives or their business life that you mentioned is incredibly
important. Like to be able to look back on
your work, your career, and frankly pat yourself on the back

(57:33):
for the accomplishments. Because there are plenty of
moments, I think for all of us as individuals, as well as, you
know, for those who are running businesses to get anxious or
stressed out or feel not good enough.
You know, and there's, I think, you know, so much that we're
seeing out there on the Internetthat when I was a young

(57:54):
architect, there was no Internet.
So, you know, you only knew whatwas in your small little bubble.
Now you can see like everything that's out there globally all
the time, 24/7. And you know, it can be
overwhelming. It can make you feel like, wow,
I'm not doing enough. I'm not accomplishing enough.
I'm not, you know, getting enough projects.
And I guess I'm the type of person who compartmentalizes a

(58:16):
bit and says, you know, I understand that's there's like a
lot of stuff out there that I'm not doing.
But let me think about what I amdoing.
What am I doing well? What have I done well in the
past? What does the firm done well in
the past? How can we launch that into the
next group of projects? Because you can't do everything.
So you really have to find out what's satisfying for the firm,

(58:37):
what's satisfying for yourself personally and run with that.
You know, so we have some reallygreat clients that are super fun
to work with. They're really willing to take
ideas and, and kind of like nurture them with us.
And I'm really grateful for that.
And that I think, you know, one never knows, but you always hope

(58:57):
that that's going to lead to thenext great project.
You never know what your next great project is going to be
until you actually finish it. Because some projects that we've
had where we think, oh, that's going to be the next great
project. Sometimes it doesn't
materialize. Sometimes for whatever reason,
it gets chopped up into lots of little bits.
And then sometimes the project where we think, you know, this

(59:18):
is a great project, but you know, isn't really going to be
like the next one that, you know, gets well publicized and,
you know, wins awards and that sort of thing.
And then it turns out it goes ona roll and it's, you know, it,
it turns into one that really surprises all of us.
And it's exciting. It's exciting for the clients,

(59:38):
It's exciting for us. It's exciting for the builders.
And you honestly don't know until until it wraps up because
anything could happen along the way.
You know, these journeys can sometimes be fraught with such
unexpected ups and downs, and sometimes the, the ups happen
when you least expect it. And then that's what kind of

(01:00:00):
launches the project into, you know, a totally different, you
know, level of, of creativity orcollaboration that one could not
have necessarily predicted. On that very first client
meeting. So trying to be open, open to
that is important. And just catch those moments
when you can and keep nurturing them.

(01:00:21):
So like you would have mentionedearlier, you know, the moment
when a client chooses the schemethat we secretly want to keep
pursuing and exploring. But we know there's some, you
know, kind of risky and unpredictable aspects to it.
Yeah, it when those, when those projects get resolved and they,

(01:00:42):
you know, they work their way through the whole process and
they turn out the other end and they're great, that's when you
kind of say it was worth the risk.
It was worth the the challenges,the extra time because a lot of
these projects require a lot of extra time that frankly we we
don't bill our clients for. You know you are not alone in
that. Yeah, there are a lot of late

(01:01:03):
nights where, you know, Arjuni, late nights and weekends where
Arjun I are tussling with things, resolving things in
order to bring it back the next morning or the next Monday to
the team and say, hey, let's trythis, right.
But you know, it's, it's that commitment, which I think is,
you know, some people say it's exclusive to architecture and

(01:01:23):
art, that it's that, you know, kind of like creative passion
that our dispassion. I see it in a lot of other
professions. So I think that anybody who is
committed to pushing the boundaries and doing better at
what they do in any profession is going to have that commitment
to sort of stay up late and takethe extra time to to really

(01:01:45):
think through how can I make this better or how can I jump to
the next level. Is there and you can take a
second to think about this, but is there a specific whether it's
a project or detail that you that you came forward with to a
client or when they said yes, you were like, wow, OK, this is

(01:02:07):
great. We were really excited.
And then you walk back in, the door closes and you're like, Oh
my God, we gotta go figure this thing.
Out. Well, we just had that
experience last week. OK, that's where we got pushed
off. That's the recording.
Yes, so, and I mean, this is, you know, for, for us, maybe not
for, you know, every architecture firm out there, but

(01:02:30):
you know, I find that I'm alwayslearning something new and I'm
always growing and, you know, evolving.
Like the notion of being a master architect or master
builder. I mean, we're not there yet.
We're still evolving and, and, you know, trying to really hone
our craft. And I think that that I, I try

(01:02:51):
to have humility with that because it allows me to say, OK,
we're going to make mistakes or missteps or we're going to put
some things out there that maybe, you know, will flummox us
a bit. But if we don't do that, we
won't know how far we can push something.
So last week we had a meeting with a client, put out three
design ideas out there and they gravitated to the one that we

(01:03:14):
were most nervous about. And, and I actually wrote them a
note afterwards. And I said, you know, this one
has challenges. It requires really precise
execution on the part of the builder, whoever you choose to
build it. So we can't have just any team
come in. Writing things down in a napkin.
So we're waiting to see what theclient says.

(01:03:36):
We we pointed out, you know, thepros and cons of every scheme,
but it is the kind of thing where, you know, you put an idea
out there, you try and I mean, we always try and resolve the
idea so that it's really plausible before it goes in
front of a client. But this particular one, we just
knew that it's because it's in aregion that has torrential

(01:03:58):
rainstorms at certain times of the year.
And we have worked mostly in climates where, yes, there are
rain storms. Sometimes there are even, you
know, a hurricane that blows through.
But it's not like a whole seasonwhere you've got like a month
and a half to two months of likealmost nonstop rain every day.
So with the roof form, you know,we were saying, OK, this one

(01:04:21):
roof form is going to really require very careful water
management because of its shape.It has the potential to, you
know, to potentially, you know, have some some issues.
So that's just an example where we know we can solve those
problems if we have, you know, some more time and maybe we have

(01:04:41):
to change the reform in certain ways to, you know, to manage the
deluge. But it was one that I had to
point out to the client, like this one is going to need more
time. This one's going to need more
effort because, you know, we, we, we try to be honest with
clients so they manage their expectations, but also let them
know, like, we put this in frontof you because visually it, it

(01:05:02):
has some compelling moments, butwe want to be very responsible
about the build side and the longevity side of a project.
On bringing in the right consultants, right help bring
this whole thing together. Right, right.
That you know, that's part of one of the value adds in hiring
the right practice is knowing the right consultants that
understand the ambition of what the design is so.

(01:05:25):
And you know, we also, I mean, our firm does architecture into
your design and a certain amountof landscape design immediately
around the house. I mean, we lean on landscape
architects for their creativity and their knowledge about the
technical side. But you know, when you marry
those 3 aspects into a package for a client, there's also, I

(01:05:47):
guess more risk involved becauseeach one of those areas is a
specialty in and of itself. So we, but, you know, trying to
merge all three and I think we've provided our clients with
a lot of kind of cohesive thought across a project and all
those 3 disciplines. But you know, each one requires

(01:06:07):
like a very focused dedication and commitment to executing it
well. So that's another place where,
you know, I always tell clients like we are happy to do all
three, but you know, give us time to sort of make sure each
one is successful, each, you know, sort of bucket is
successful in and of itself, butthat all three are kind of

(01:06:29):
married together across the project.
One you can. You can see that through a lot
of the design you have. I I would say to me one of those
compelling is, is your house in Mexico and like the the
connectivity that that home has to the landscape with the
courtyard in the centre. Well, that one, again, I'm not
sure if this is 1 you want to keep talking about or if you

(01:06:51):
want to edit it out, but that one didn't get built, so I don't
know if it's important for you to.
Have built products or not doesn't it doesn't matter to me.
It doesn't matter the the concept of that design plays
into what you're talking about. So hold on, let me, I'll let me
go back. So I want to do I want to keep
it to me. I think if you're OK with it, I
think that this design is incredibly compelling.

(01:07:13):
Fine. If you want to keep it and you
know the client, they put it on hold, but it's not like they've
said we don't want to build it. They just, you know, when they
said when we're ready, we'll reach back out to you.
We love the design and they actually know it's won awards as
unbuilt and they're thrilled about that.
So, you know, we still have a very good relationship with that
client. It's a, to me, a beautiful
representation of exactly what you're talking about and what

(01:07:34):
you're looking to accomplish from an architecture, interiors
and landscape perspective. It literally blends all of them
together where there's that seamless connection between
indoors and outdoors. And you lived in experience.
It's Yeah, I think, I think it'sbeautiful.
And I'm. I'm really hopeful that they
that they're gonna come back to you soon to get this built
because you definitely want to fly down there for the for the

(01:07:55):
day before they move in right when that it will happen, you
know, fly down there, you'll celebrate it and then they'll
take ownership and that'll be it.
But the, the ambition of it is, is beautiful as well.
So I look, I am greatly appreciative of you taking time
to go over all of this either ormaybe only about two or three

(01:08:17):
questions left. I'd like to ask you cognizant of
our time together and the, the dedication you have to your
clients and serving them and going off and completing some of
the work you've got to get on totoday.
So I wanted to ask you from yourown personal standpoint, what
does it look like when you want to unwind and decompress?

(01:08:38):
What are some of the hobbies that you take on or that you've
had over the years that allow you to in some ways turn off
work? Let's see.
I mean, you know, there's some very basic things.
So, you know, I'd love to go forwalks.
You know, walking around New York City is an inspiration, a
way to, you know, just kind of decompress when I can.

(01:09:00):
I love to play tennis. It's a fun sport for me.
I've played it as a kid and, youknow, trying to pick it back up
now. I coach tennis.
For wow, I'm impressed. Wow.
I got my certification that's atFlushing with the USTA.
Oh, that's impressive. Well, I won't ask you to to ever
have to play tennis with me because I'm really super

(01:09:22):
amateur, but I do have fun with it.
It's fun, that's all. It's supposed to be easy at this
stage of life. You just get out there and play.
It's it's it's the activity of doing it.
Sorry, I interrupt you. Go ahead.
Go ahead. It's OK.
I mean, I do love to travel. So whenever I get whenever we
get a chance, you know, we'll, we'll travel and explore a new
place. And I mean, I know this may

(01:09:44):
sound silly, but. And I remember telling a group
of young women who were looking for advice on architecture, and
they asked me the exact same question.
But just sometimes, like, doing very basic chores around the
house is a way for me to decompress.
And it's because I can sort of do something that's totally
mindless, but, you know, let my mind wander to other areas.

(01:10:07):
And it's a little bit like, I guess, you know, some people
might say, you know, I do my best thinking in the shower kind
of thing, you know, So I think it's not so important to find,
like, you know, something earth shattering to say, you know,
that's my hobby or my way to decompress.
Sometimes it's the small things that can just be a little bit of

(01:10:28):
a break in a day and provide just a little bit of, you know,
mindless respite from all the intensity of what we do as
architects. I also have two children, so my
daughters in college. She's a sophomore.
My son is 25 and he's in Boston working and living and on his

(01:10:50):
own. How does that feel?
It feels great. I'm glad they're both super
happy and enjoying what they do.And so Arjun and I are.
We're married, so I can't remember if I mentioned that at
the very beginning, but, you know, we have raised a family
together as well as nurtured this firm together.
And, you know, having two children who I think have been

(01:11:14):
incredibly patient with us and appreciated.
I think they appreciate the factthat we have a firm and that
we're both, you know, working parents.
I think they see in us, hopefully a sense of commitment
to something that, you know, is important to us intellectually
and we're passionate about, hopefully helps them think about

(01:11:35):
how they want to drive their lives and, and move forward with
things that they really care about and things that they're
very passionate about. Raising two kids as part of the
having, having activities outside of work, you know, doing
things with the kids, talking tothe kids, you know, having down
time with the kids. And, you know, that balancing

(01:11:56):
of, of work and parenthood I think has been, you know, just
part of my life for the past 25 years and continues to be.
I feel like the kids, they're both doing well.
They're both very independent. But, you know, once you're a
parent, you're always a parent. Yeah.
You know, that's that's an important part of who I am.

(01:12:19):
Were you ever in, I'm, I'm gonnaassume the answer is yes.
So in some ways the loaded question, but did you, do you
remember taking your kids to programs and you and the, and
like in the early 2000s, you're taking the kids to programs.
You've got your laptop with you.They want you to pay attention
to them, but you're also workingon that deadline.
And so in some ways you're doing, you're doing something on
the computer, but it also tries to try to look up and make sure

(01:12:41):
they're getting the time. Well, I didn't do that, OK,
However, I didn't make it to every single, you know, school
activity. I wasn't the parent who was
always volunteering for the field trips, you know, so, and I
wasn't the parent who was alwaysat drop off or pick up every

(01:13:01):
single day, you know, I, I was working.
So I think, you know, I think everybody balances work and
parenthood in different ways. You know, tried to do the best I
could, tried to be there for thekids for all the important
stuff. And I know that they had they
definitely mommy working on vacations, for example, you

(01:13:24):
know, we go on vacation, but I would still have to stay
connected to the office here andthere.
So every now and then I'd have to, you know, break off for, for
that. Same with our, you know, Arjun
would have to break off for certain things for work, whether
we're on vacation or, you know, he wouldn't necessarily always
be able to make every single school function or sports
activity or that sort of thing. But that's just part of life.

(01:13:47):
And I, you know, growing up, I also look at my own parents.
My mom worked, but then stopped working when I was pretty young.
My dad worked, you know, for formany, many years.
And, you know, you realize that,you know, there's just a a
balancing act. It's never perfect, but it's
pretty good. You know, you kind of see how

(01:14:07):
parents care for, you know, theyhave tremendous care for the
family. My parents certainly did and
they just made it work. And, and I feel like, you know,
there's a certain sense of independence that I have because
my parents expected me to, you know, make something of myself
and do good in the world. And I always tell my kids that,
you know, that I'm not going to be able to lead your life for

(01:14:30):
you or be there to catch you every time you fall.
You're going to have to be somewhat independent,
self-sufficient, resilient, pickyourself up when things you
know, are crappy. But your father and I will
always be there for you. You know, you'll always be able
to lean on us. But there will be challenges in
life. And that's just the nature of

(01:14:50):
it. And you know, you, I mean,
they've, they've seen how the sausage gets made.
Neither of them, by the way, aregoing into architecture.
I was reading, so I was reading to ask that question.
Other sausage gets made. So they appreciate that, you
know, when people say to them, oh, you know, your parents are
architects. Wow, that's so cool.
They must be so creative. It must be so fun.

(01:15:13):
They know that there's a realitybehind it and it's hard work.
But again, I always tell my kids, every profession is hard
work. You know, you can go into any
profession and the headliner might be, you know, glamorous,
or you make a lot of money or, you know, you get to travel or
whatever it is. The back story is that it's hard

(01:15:33):
work and you earn it if you workhard and if you really absorb
the knowledge and you help people.
I always tell my kids, whatever job you decide to take, try to
be helpful. Try and ask people, what more
can I do and say, you know, whatcan I learn on my own that I can
then give back to the client or to the firm to help them elevate

(01:15:55):
what they do? That's the most important thing.
If you're going to want to be successful in what you do and if
you're going to want to get morechances and more opportunities
to raise your game, you just have to think like that.
So my son once said to me, yeah,my son once called me up for
advice about a challenge he was facing at his office.
And I gave him the advice and hesaid, mom, I actually didn't

(01:16:19):
want your advice as a business professional.
I just wanted your sympathy as amom.
And I was like, oh, OK, sorry, let me put on my mom hat and you
can cry on my shoulder and I'll,you know, put my arm around you
and all of that. But I said, I thought you needed
the practical advice. And he was like, well, I need
that too. But I, I just, you know,
sometimes all your practical advice is just like, it's too

(01:16:43):
practical. I was like, that's OK, I get it.
So, so anyway, you know, I thinkthat, you know, as, as we go
through life as individuals, youknow, the bigger picture is that
we balance out our passions. We push hard for what we're
passionate about in our professional career.
Hmm. But that we give ourselves
credit for things that we have done and things that we have

(01:17:06):
done outside of our profession as well.
Like I'm very proud of my two kids and how great they are and
that, you know, they, they seem to be on a good trajectory.
Anything could happen. But you know, they seem to be on
a good trajectory. And that, you know, raising the
kids has nothing to do with me as an architect.
But I do think it. Informs.
Yes it does. Forms how I think about
relationships with our clients, how I can help our clients build

(01:17:30):
stronger relationships either within their families, their
companies, their institutions and and also learning from the
small things you. Know how your kids interact with
space and, and you know small isms, you know when you walk
into your house where you're storing your cutlery or where
you're putting, you know your linens and, and these small

(01:17:53):
things inform what you're going to what you're, how you're going
to look at someone else in some way, because it's your
experience that is paramount. I think you know, and also the
balance of being able to understand the importance of
home for a family when you're working in residential.
If you have the family, you havea different overall

(01:18:14):
understanding of what it is to have seen the evolution of of
family now at this stage than you did when you first started
completely. Yeah, and I love hearing stories
about people's families because every family is different and
every client is different, you know?
So when I hear stories about family experiences, what people

(01:18:35):
like to do and some of the challenges within, you know,
family dynamics and family relationships.
And then I think about, well, how can we create basis to
bridge that to bring, you know, comfortable places where people
feel welcome? Yeah.
And same with, you know, when wedo commercial work or
institutional work, it's like, how do you build these places
where essentially the community feels like a family with all of

(01:18:59):
its quirks and dynamics and spats and, you know, love for
each other. How do you how do you kind of
create that kind of environment because people the space to be
who they are, but yet be part ofa collective?
Kathy, thank you so much for participating in this.
It's been an absolute pleasure. I admire your work and I admire
your ability to be able to go and open up and talk about some

(01:19:20):
of those things you've just shared about family and the
value of being a mom and also anentrepreneur.
Thank you. You're welcome.
It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting
me and look forward to reconnecting with you, hopefully
in person at some point in the near future.
Definitely I'm gonna I'll be coming to New York at some
point. OK.

(01:19:40):
Sounds great. Thanks so much.
Thanks.

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Behind the Build: Katherine Chia - Desai Chia Architecture

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Behind the Build: Katherine Chia - Desai Chia Architecture