Behind the Build: Waterloo University Alumni - Carol Phillips, Robert Kastelic, Lisa D'Abbondanza, & Drew Mandel - Behind the Build

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
O Welcome to Behind the Build. I'm your host, Jonathan Jacobs.
And today is a special. Recording at University of
Waterloo, we have 4 alumni with us today.
We have Carol Phillips of Moriyama Teshima, we have Robert
Kostelic from AKB, we have Drew Mandel from Drew Mandel
Architects, and we have Lisa David Danza from Arcades.

(00:37):
O the four of you all went to school together a couple of
years ago. You.
And, and what we wanted to do with this university concept was
to bring people together that were alumni and have them talk
about what it was like to one, select a school 2, what the
experience was like during the course of your tenure at the

(00:59):
school, but then what it's like post school and what is life
like as an architect managing different scales of practice.
Before we dive in, I want to thank Zinco Canada for
sponsoring today's food and making this.
Live recording possible? Zinco isn't just a sponsor for
us, they're a trusted partner onour project.

(01:19):
As you'll hear later in the conversation, the panelists talk
a lot about materials, sustainability, and the way
architecture shapes environments.
That's exactly what Zinco does. Their green roof system is
installed over my own studio, and it's become a living,
flourishing space for insects, pollinators and wildlife.
It also assists with rainwater management and makes the

(01:42):
outdoors more usable and inviting.
We've already collaborated with Zinco on projects alongside SMPL
Design Studio, Black Lab Architects, Drew Mandel
Architects and Eisen Architecture, with more to come
every time. They bring reliability,
technical expertise, and a real commitment to creating spaces
that perform not just in design,but in how they interact with

(02:05):
the natural world. Zinko Canada's proof that when
we talk about architecture beingbigger than the building itself,
we can actually put it into practice.
If you want to learn more about Zinco and their suite of
opportunities and enhancing yourprojects, feel free to e-mail
me. It's Jonathan.

(02:26):
That's Jonathan at waldenhomes.ca.
So I will start off with the open-ended question and we can
kind of work our way across. There's no real direct format
and I don't want to point to someone as they can you answer
this, but can you describe what it was like when you were
selecting schools and you said like I, I think I'm going to go

(02:48):
to Waterloo. What was that like for you
individually? And feel free you can look to
each other and decide who you want to answer first.
I I can. Start go for it you'll.
Yeah, so my, my journey to Waterloo was a bit circuitous.
I would say that, you know, it was probably my older sister
who's sort of saw the potential for me to study architecture,

(03:10):
suggested it. And like most siblings, you take
it with a grain of salt. And, and I, and I did, I did
apply only to Carlton and, and to the University of Waterloo.
And my sister studied math at Waterloo.
So I was familiar with with the school, I was familiar with
reputation. And I came here out of at the
time, straight out of grade 13. And I remember sitting in the

(03:33):
interview and and Lorenzo Pignati looked at me and he
said, Are you sure you want to do this?
And I said, I'm not. And he said, well, we have a
whole group of people here over the next three days who really
know they want to be here. So maybe you want to think about
that and I did, I didn't start at Waterloo.

(03:56):
I, I started at Waterloo, but inphysics.
And that was my big passion. I was into the poetry of, you
know, expanding universes and, and, and string theory.
And then I came to study architecture.
So science at, at Waterloo and sat in a room with 350 students
and it was not poetic at all. And it was not mind expanding.

(04:20):
But I also took iconography as an elective and I was completely
smitten with Robert Wilder standing in front of the class.
And that's where that mind expansion happened is was in the
iconography class. And I decided there that
absolutely I want to go to this school and I came to

(04:43):
architecture through the cultural history.
Program. So that was my pathway to to
studying architecture at Fed Waterloo.
Do you want me to direct this is?
It I can I go for it out so I being from Toronto I had applied
to uterus Toronto Carlton and Waterloo.

(05:03):
I kept it Ontario based and I think I didn't make the mail
wasn't coming in. I was like, oh, this is not
happening. And finally a letter from
Waterloo came and said, can you come up for these interviews and
present your portfolio? So I didn't know where Waterloo
was. Waterloo for me was that
geographically I, I hadn't really gone out of the city very

(05:23):
much because I was just sort of inner city guy.
And so I took a train to Waterloo thinking must be really
out there far right, this is precell phone Internet stuff.
And just had my big portfolio with oversized paintings
sticking out and ending up in Kitchener.
And I get off the train and thenI'm trying to find out how to

(05:46):
get to the University of Waterloo.
And I ask someone on the street,where is the University of
Waterloo because it's just up down to King Street or just go
down there. So I ended up walking I guess
cause I just assumed that it wasaround and I kept walking and
then it started to rain and I was like, oh, and My Portfolio

(06:06):
is open with those old leather portfolios with the zipper.
And it was so stuff getting wet.And I'm sitting out there in a
yellow sort of Canadian patterned, I think with trees
and reindeer sweater. And I was trying to hail a cab,
but I think only you couldn't hail a cab.
You have to call for a cab to come to you.

(06:26):
And so before Toronto was like, what's going on?
What's wrong with me? I can't heal a cab.
And I'm like, it's raining. And so I'll tell you.
Finally I went on a bus. I saw, I convinced myself or
convinced the driver to let me on the bus.
I don't know if I have tokens and finally make it to Waterloo
and to the, I guess I almost called it audition and and you

(06:47):
write the praise, see, which wasamazing thing to do to think in
that context where you get this kind of sort of philosophical
line that you have to debate andand sort out and reason, I think
in an hour and a half. And then the the interview came
up and that was Mark. I remember Thomas Seebohm was

(07:07):
there and that was pretty remarkable fellow and you had
some great questions and I, you know, they, they, they looked at
me and said, your calculus mark isn't very good.
And I was like, I was failing calculus and I was like, I know
I'm because I did, I was thinking about a set designer
theatre work at the school. And so my time was associated to

(07:27):
there, which when I presented, that was a thing of interest, I
think for the interviewers and, and for me, I was really caring
about the markets. I really working hard.
I will pass it. I but I honestly, I don't think
I'll get past the 60. And then I, you know, I finished
the interview and left and I thought, OK, that's not
happening. But then ultimately I got an

(07:47):
acceptance, and that was straight from high school and I
was pretty excited. I'm very excited because it was
really the place I wanted to be at, right?
Well, you don't know him very much when you're in grade 13,
but I I was aware of the cultural history component of
Waterloo and thought it would bewell aligned with my interests
and I did not get in the first attempt.

(08:10):
And so I worked on things and advanced, tried to advance the
portfolio came in. I actually folded up my
rejection letter into his littleamulet.
I called it what to make of rejection letter from
architecture school and recalledand be laughed for a good deal
of the interview after that. And I felt at home and I felt

(08:35):
that I was in and I was, and it was a great experience.
So similar to Drew, I didn't getin the first time, I wasn't
prepared. I had a guidance counselor told
me I couldn't be an architect because I didn't take drafting.
And I guess I, when I got there and didn't get in, I thought

(08:55):
maybe that was true. But I so then my next path was
to try and take a year and work on My Portfolio.
So ended up at York University in May trying to find an opening
for who might accept you in May with math and science courses.
And I was studying honors math and the physics department while

(09:17):
working on a portfolio, which was an interesting year.
And second time around, again, Iapplied, didn't know much.
I was a sheltered suburban kid and you know, Waterloo was still
the place where was deemed to bea very good place, had a Co-op
department was kind of close to home, but not too far away from

(09:39):
home. Similar you've T Carlton and and
Waterloo and wasn't getting the letter in the mail.
Letter in the mail And the second time and Carlton's came
in and I had to make an answer, had to answer.
And I still remember putting theyes on an actual piece of paper
just waiting for Waterloo, waiting for Waterloo.

(10:00):
And I, it came in and it said you're in.
And I had took, literally took alittle bottle of liquid paper
and liquid paper off the yes andput the no mailed it actor
Carlton in my interview. I, I still remember it was Paul
Bakalich, who was he always had students, Paul Beckwith and Val.
And that was in my interview. And yeah, I remember Rick up at

(10:25):
the top with the, with the privacy, which I will say I
struggle with as I don't communicate as most architects
do. I prefer to produce lots of
drawings and models rather than stand up and talk about
architecture. So for me that part of it was a
was challenging, but I second time around I did it and ended

(10:45):
up with these fine people. And now here you are sitting.
Yeah, I mean, we were in the same.
Class. Same class, same class.
Yeah, I was too ahead. And as you know, in Waterloo,
because of the Co-op program, the class is 2 ahead and two
below. We're on the same stream.
So we feel very close that, you know, we, we, we just saw each

(11:09):
other every four months and kneweverybody in, in the, in, in the
classes, the epic Halloween parties and we just knew each
other really, really well through the years.
Halloween. Parties.
Oh yeah, epic Halloween parties after a deadline.
Actually randomly had lunch the 1st.
Day of Waterloo together. Yeah, Yeah.

(11:30):
And we sat each other because Rick Andrew Getty gave us the
numbers. You had to sit with the same
thing. And I remember Drew was in a
rush because he parked his van on the lawn.
He's moving van on the lawn and had to.
You seem to have these like car stories grew.
And Rob and I live together in ahouse. 7 more.

(11:52):
It's in Waterloo and I think that was the last year the
village residents allowed architects to stay because
everyone was just defecting, saying you can't, can't eat the
food here we're. Never left at Christmas.
And it's like, yeah. And then I think after that, no
more residents. You have to find her own spaces.
And yeah, we ended up in a wild wild House scenario.

(12:14):
So what do you feel like when and just more of an open-ended
question. Do you feel like when you were,
when you were in school, when you were learning about it all
that it had given you a because of that, coop had given you a
really good opportunity to understand what it was going to
be like when you entered the profession?
Most definitely, without a doubt, I think.
Yeah, it was really tough times though.

(12:36):
So yeah, I mean, some, some people, I remember you guys just
like there's a lot of work abroad cause it was a really bad
recession, so we had to kind of fend for ourselves and maybe
invent some kind of jobs to get concrete.
Sometimes. Recession.
Yeah, yeah. So sometimes you got work,
sometimes you have to make something up to get some
credits. Yeah, that's right.

(12:57):
But on the question of coop, youknow, I, I still maintain that
this is the best architecture school.
And because it stands on those sort of three pillars, it stands
on cultural history, design studio and, and Co-op.
And I think somehow you come outof that with this really, really

(13:19):
well-rounded experience where you understand the cultural
importance of what you're doing,the poetic importance of what
you're doing. You've exercised your design
hand, but but you've had these rotating practical experiences
and see what it's like to work in architecture office.
And for myself, I had a bit of wanderlust.
So even back in the day when there was no Internet or cell

(13:42):
phones, you know, I worked in Vancouver and Barcelona and you
know, I just, I just left, I went to these places and just
tried everything. And when there were session hit
when I graduated, I had no problem leaving to go to Hong
Kong for 2 1/2 years. And so I think that that
experience of knowing you could have these kind of little

(14:05):
adventures through your career that were not just about working
in an office, but likely workingin another location, in another
city, another country even, thatreally broadened my ability to
be resilient in in in a recession and also just take
chances when I could. Henry Rothberg Steel Family run

(14:26):
third generation, serving projects across the GTA and
beyond. We've partnered with them for
years on projects with Eyes and Architecture, Vanessa Fong
Architects, Drew Mandel Architects, SMPL Design Studio,
Richard Leebrick Architects, Black Lab Architects, Ask with
Architects and more. They supply it all.

(14:47):
Structural beams, lentils, posts, HSS, columns, plates,
brackets, base plates, embeds the backbone of a project.
What matters most. They show up when they say they
will. They stand behind every promise.
Their installers are sharp, efficient and professional.

(15:10):
In this industry, timing and trust means everything.
Henry Roberg Steel delivers both.
And I'll tell you, I was having a call today with Brett.
Their general manager is pouringrain here in the city of Toronto
and his installers were installing happily inside of a
renovation. Why?
Because they knew others wouldn't be there today.

(15:32):
They knew they'd be able to put their head down and get the job
done. I highly recommend them.
I'm happy to introduce you. e-mail me.
It's Jonathan. Jonathan at waldenhomes.ca and I
will happily connect you with their amazing team.
Now back into the episode. Yeah, it it's also be, as you

(15:53):
describe it, it's a different time when you, it's easy to say
this, but to not have cell phones, like when you're
traveling abroad, you're callingcollect.
And for those that don't know, calling collect is like you had
to call and ask for someone elseon the other end of the phone to
accept the charges of that phonecall.
OK? Like it is a different time and

(16:16):
you're talking about complete and utter independence and
without the fall back of a parachute of this and I'm
holding up a cell phone like youcan't.
You didn't have that as an option.
So when you committed to going somewhere, you were gone.
So like I can, I can appreciate what that would be like.
Yeah, and also I would say that the, the Co-op experience also

(16:39):
worked against me in some ways too, because I did go abroad all
the time. Because when, when I did land in
in Toronto as a graduate with tons of student loans and wanted
to live at home, I had no contacts.
I, I never worked in Toronto. My first, my first job after
after first year, which wasn't an official work term, but was

(17:01):
in Toronto, but every other one was elsewhere.
And so I didn't really know any of the architects in Toronto you
guys worked in. Come up also, I mean, I think
any practical vocational training sets out an ideal.
And so you know, lawyers are setup to have an ideal.
They will want to leave school and work on constitutional or

(17:23):
human rights issues and architects aspire to great
things from the school training.And the Co-op does begin your
process of reconciling with the world, which I think happens.
And so I think it was, it's a very helpful component to do
that which carries on. My first job was at the Toronto
Catholic District School Board. Drawing up very free washrooms

(17:45):
drew a lot of very few washing, but I learned how to draw
barrier free. Washroom.
But yeah, that was that was A and I was lucky to have at the
job. But again, contacts at the
school board, contacts with the world and real buildings,
measuring things like all that practical stuff that.

(18:05):
When you're talking about drawing barrier free washrooms
as a Co-op student or obsessing over turning radius of a
wheelchair, what you're really learning is that details matter.
That carries through every stageof practice.
Kaplan's Appliances takes that same approach.
They've been a family run business in Toronto for
generations and their focus has always been on service and

(18:27):
expertise. It's not about which appliance
has the most features or the highest price tag, it's about
finding the right fit for your space and the way you live
there. Team knows the products inside
and out, and they're there long after the sale.
From delivery to installation tomaking it, Shirt actually works

(18:49):
the way it should. Just like the panelists
describe, success in architecture often comes down to
sweating the details and taking responsibility for how people
experience the everyday. Caplan's Appliances brings that
mindset to something as essential as your fridge or
stove, and that's why they've earned such trust in the design

(19:11):
community and with us at Walden Homes.
If you'd like to learn more, e-mail me
jonathan.j.onathan@waldenholmes.ca.And the people you meet too, I
mean, my first Co-op job, I'm still going out for drinks with
that the clan from the locksmithcrew that was there.
So that's been like over 30 years and we still get together.

(19:36):
So we made some really nice friendships in the coop.
And so don't take advantage of the people that are you're
working with because they'll grow in community.
And it's almost like a network that you have established in, in
Co-op, which you know, and, and Kelly and I would be hiring
Co-op students, you know, because we, we know the caliber
of student and education out they have coming into the

(19:57):
office. So there's been a lot of
contribution from Waterloo Co-opHair Studio.
And you know, and we still, we still, we had that party invited
a whole bunch of them. They all showed up.
It was amazing to see them come back to.
Life and life makes a lot more sense looking backwards.
So you have these jobs that at the time you might not feel your
career trajectory is where you want it to be and not working at

(20:18):
a an emboldened name firm, but those experiences can serve you
well. I, I was working at a
residential firm. I mean, wasn't my, my preferred
firm, but you're always gratefulfor people who hire you.
But it wasn't my preferred firm.And, and then when I had, as
life took me, had opportunity todo a residence and then from

(20:41):
that open a firm that focused largely on residential work, I
had a, I had much more confidence from that experience.
And again, looking backwards, itmakes a lot more sense, gave me
a lot more skills that I, I was able to, to use that I didn't,
that I took for granted and didn't value at the time.
So, so I it's a careful dance ofpatience and impatience and

(21:03):
ambition when you're younger. And I also think Robbie
mentioned this piece about relationships, and I always try
to, you know, recall the, you know, things were a little
looser when we were younger. But Peter Busby gave me the keys
to his vintage Alfa Romeo that Ipromptly drove the wrong way on

(21:23):
a runway One way St. in in Vancouver with him standing,
like, looking at me waving, you know?
Laughed. Laughed.
But I mean, you know, there was these kind of fun experiences
and making friends with your with the people who employed
you. And for me working in different
cities, you know, there was thisgenerosity where people said,

(21:45):
well, we're going to take you skiing.
We're going to show you these places because you, you're only
here for four months. So, and, and I try to remember
that with the students that cometo our offices to make sure it's
not just about the work and the experience, but to make sure
that they have some fun experiences and to, and to make
sure that somebody takes them onand, and, and tries to give them

(22:07):
the opportunity to experience the life of, of the office and
have experiences that are different than just being with
your peers all the time. Yeah, it's a pretty magical, I
thought it was a pretty magical experience, especially looking
back. We're chatting in the hallway
about how I was saying school isincredibly magical because you
get lit up, you know, they sort of, I don't know, maybe central

(22:29):
back, you know, break you down, break down your ideas and your
conventional thinking and, and light you up.
And it's a very exciting time. And then these adventure, the
opportunities for adventures in the world are incredibly
exciting. And then I think this is well
timed because now we've all, I think everyone in our our world,
in our history that stayed in the profession now is at a

(22:50):
position of of great opportunityand leadership.
And so the ride looks like it was all fun all the time.
Yeah, but not necessarily the case.
Well, you, you just, you forget maybe the hard work, but but I
mean school reflecting back was magical.
And now I think we're all, we'veall been fortunate to find land

(23:10):
in a in a position of of great opportunity for what we do and,
and lead the worlds that were involved with and and so it's,
it's a nice story. I want to ask that the question
and you kind of alluded to Drew in one of the commentaries you
had there about the job you had at a school and your first job

(23:30):
and how did that place your trajectory and practice?
Did it say I I don't want to do this or I want to do?
This Oh yeah, start off so my first job out of school really
my first real job was actually with Carol and Drew at MGMA for
10 years. And I would have to say those

(23:51):
were will leave the golden yearsof taking ourselves seriously
and not taking ourselves seriously enough with Rob down
the street as a kind of Friday evening fixture and.
Like still walking? Still walking and I think like I
think people still get sick of me talking about my old job,

(24:13):
which is now 20 years ago and the times and the work that we
did and the how we worked together again as a people in
the community you build around your projects and the
relationships you made started at school.
So that's. We were talking about earlier,
we, they, I think they taught rigor and joy, right?

(24:34):
That they, they had, they took the work very seriously, but
they always made sure we had funand we, we made sure we had fun.
And those were great lessons to learn that we all try to, I'm
sure, carry forward in our firms.
And, you know, we all had experiences because I think it's
important to learn what you don't want as much as what you
do want. And the Co-op has that kind of

(24:54):
range and variety where we all learned, you know, that, you
know, if you're beaten as children, you're likely to beat
your kids. And we all made decisions to
work. More.
Reference. But that we we chose MGM and or
MGM chose us and it was a magical time and they really did
teach us great lessons. It was very kind of non
hierarchical environment and great great learning place that

(25:18):
we we still fondly remember. And I would say just to tie back
to Waterloo, though, very culturally familiar, right,
because Vic was there and Rob was there and Andy was there.
So these are all alumni of of Waterloo.
And so there was, you know, there was this kind of familiar,
immediate familiarity and, and understanding of the kind of

(25:42):
education that we went through, the kind of values that we had,
the memories we had. You know, we all, we also, Rick
in the forum, you know, we all had that experience.
We all had that really life altering experience.
And, and it was familiar territory.
And yeah, I would, I know, and Iactually say this a lot too.

(26:02):
I, I do mentor quite a few younggraduates and I always tell them
to choose their placements and their jobs really wisely,
especially right out of school, because it has tremendous
influence on your, your next steps.
It's you can, you can map that like, like life in general, you
know, you can map your, your choices based on the experiences

(26:24):
that you, you had. And that's just really to echo.
But what Drew was just saying is, is that it's formative.
And the 10 years that we spent together was really incredible.
I just saw that little smirk across the face there thinking
about it. Yeah.
Yeah, I thought I was missing onthe party started walk down to
their. Office still walking.

(26:45):
They're referencing what happened in Waterloo and
Kitchener. Were walking down the street,
walking down the street again. Where's the party at?
I was at KPMV for about 7 years during that time, which is a
whole different kind of setup, but still a wonderful place to
be in really, you know, an opportunity to expose yourself
to a lot of range of projects and, and, and, and wonderful

(27:06):
partners and people there. And I think at the time there
wasn't that much of A Waterloo presence.
I think Bob Sims was the one associated there was actually
from Waterloo and there weren't many others.
I know you worked there for a long cycle OPS then so.
Yeah, I was there as a student. Yeah, we all sort of, you know,
dipped our feet into the Cape and waters and I got there
through a circuitous route, but ended up being very formative.

(27:28):
And and he still, you know, he still, of course, my lovely wife
and partner Kelly over here. Yeah.
We met at KPMB. She thought I was trouble when
she first saw me and I, I think she was right.
Still trouble. Thank you, Kelly, for for

(27:48):
everything. One theme that kept surfacing in
this panel was balance. Rigor and joy.
Seriousness and fun. Work and life.
That balance is what a Quanta Pools is all about.
It create outdoor spaces that gofar beyond the pool itself.
It's about giving families and friends a place to gather,

(28:11):
recharge, and enjoy time together.
Their work is thoughtful and integrated, not just a hole in
the ground with water in it. They think about how the pool
connects with the house, the landscaping, and how people will
actually live around it in practice.
Architects talked about how every decision affects daily

(28:32):
life, whether it's a residence or a public building.
A Quanta brings that Singer philosophy to the backyard,
creating places that are beautifully built, low
maintenance, and design for reallife.
It's joy by design and it provesthe great architecture doesn't
stop at the back door. If you want to learn more about

(28:52):
A Quanta, please feel free to e-mail me.
It's Jonathan. Jonathan at waldenhomes.ca.
Curious question about you've all been practicing for a number
of years and you're all in completely different disciplines
in some way. Sorry, Robin, Rob, Andrea is
somewhat similar. Different scale practice,
different scales of practice. How did you find your way into

(29:15):
the discipline that you're in? Like what?
What led you into it? Well, I I can say that there is
continuity with with the work from MGM.
It's not specifically in the recreational area, but I guess
after graduation there was just this emphasis on public work.

(29:41):
So work that were institutional work that was serving
communities. And so that's what I knew,
that's what I believed in, that's what I was passionate
about. And, you know, even my
experiences sort of before graduation working in Barcelona
and working in Vancouver and, and living in these cities, I, I

(30:04):
really, regardless of the work Iwas doing at those placements, I
was a kind of tourist in those cities and had to and did
appreciate the public realm and the public buildings that were,
that were there because that, that, that was how I experienced
those cities. So finding myself in a firm that

(30:25):
does pretty much 95% of our workis public, institutional work is
just, is part of a trajectory of, of that.
And, you know, I, I would say that I would say that I have a
great variety of work that I do now, much more so than than I
did at, at MGM, which, which wasmore specialist firm at the

(30:47):
time, more AMA Toshima. And specifically because I do
specialize in a way in post secondary higher Ed work.
You know, what is that? That's a lab, that's a student
residence, that's a student centre, that's a, that's a, a
research facility. That's a that's a broad, broad

(31:07):
range of, of work. Is campuses are like many cities
and they have these different things.
So it's a rich diversity of work, but but all in the public
realm. So yeah, I I think that there's
a Direct Line landing here. I pivoted significantly from
MGM, had an opportunity to builda house at an early, earlier

(31:29):
stage of a career than I would have anticipated.
Was very fortunate to do that. And that was at the time, well,
proving to be a difference makerjust to launch a career, launch
a firm earlier than I had ever imagined.
I mean, that route might not take you to where it took me at
this point, but at that time it was very exciting to do an
undersized house and a modern residential house in Toronto

(31:50):
was, I believe it or not, more, more fresh and special than than
it is now. So the media world was very
different. And we, we, it was well received
and we was able to launch a firmbased on that.
But the, you know, the, the processes that you see at a
larger firm like MGMA or or others, it's, it's a more formal
process, but the same process isapplied to the more less formal

(32:12):
world of, of residential architecture.
And it's a great lesson to have learned that and then bring that
to, to the residential world. And I think Waterloo, you know,
taught you just to how to think rather than a specific type.
And so, you know, in a way, architects see everything in a
way undifferentiated, just as anopportunity to make the most of.

(32:33):
And so I don't see it as a different, a different world in
a way. It's just applying it to a
different type. And there I was just chatting
with an older gentleman that I met through family who was a
partner at Webster off along time ago.
And we were chatting, He was telling me about his wonderful,
accomplished career. And at the end of the

(32:54):
conversation, I said, you're a real architect because I felt,
you know, in terms of city building and public impact and
social agenda. And he said, actually, I was
going to say the same thing to you because you, you know, just
your, your direct engagement with makers and, and the small
tiny 3 legged stool project group were very direct contact

(33:15):
communication and satisfying clients.
And so I thought it was a lovelyconversation because we both saw
the, the great opportunities andthe values in what we're doing.
And so different work, but valuable all the same.
My kind of pivot after MJM. It's like we're in some self
help group. What did you do after MGMA?

(33:39):
So. Tell me your problems, Lisa.
My, my opinion from MGM actuallycame through another Waterloo
classmate, Celia Johnstone, who was working at a very small
practice that did TTC work at the time.
Transit wasn't a big thing, hadn't been built in decades.
And they were Richard was looking to retire and she

(34:01):
reached out and said, you know, would you be interested in that?
Kind of started my path to becoming a transit architect.
That practice was rather small at the time.
I think we were about 10 people and now well, and then I mean
that's sort of these steps wherekeep joking that it keep getting
new jobs. I didn't ask for about Richard's

(34:22):
office grew and we got acquired by IBI for our transit
specialist I specialization, which oddly, coming from an
office where you do a lot of public institutional work is
wasn't that much of A pivot because you're still talking
about those same important things connecting communities,

(34:42):
connecting people. How do people use spaces that
grew. We, our team moved to by IBI and
then we were there and started throwing that group again within
a larger firm. And then two years ago, we got
bought again by Arcadis, who's aDutch firm, Dutch from the

(35:03):
Netherlands, 36,000 people. But what's really interesting
about the way and we kind of kept our practice is that we
have people there, like 25% of our group of 150 who've been
there since we're the originals were still there because we have
this kind of connection through this work together and these

(35:24):
lessons from school at Waterloo.We have a large contingent of
Waterloo people still and those lessons you learned early on and
again through the Co-op making those connections and not really
that's what's important. And so I've now I'm now I work
on our practice is about 150 transit architects in Canada.

(35:45):
I lead the Canada E practice forArcadis for transit, but we
really like to still operate like a goofy bunch of people who
want to do work but not take yourself too seriously and and
and it's an interesting place tobe.
Also, because we work with a lotof engineers, so often going in
architecture school, yes, we're exposed to our engineering

(36:07):
courses and being berated by Rainy Schuster for not being
able to draw shear moment diagrams.
But you're in a world of like a world, I didn't know that many
engineers existed. I thought civil engineers just
did grading in the parking lots for schools and you're in a room

(36:27):
and you're the architect and there's like unlike 30
specialized engineers to do these large transit projects.
So it's kind of exciting to be this oddball in a group of
people and still be able to kindof navigate and still coming
from those same lessons and the same places from other people.
So that's how I kind of landed to be a transit architect.

(36:50):
For me, I mean, KPD offered a lot of exposure to cultural
institutional buildings that were remarkable in in
themselves. But at the conclusion of my time
there, I knew I needed somethingdifferent.
And that's when Kelly, who was already a partner in life and
work, was already doing residential work on her own.

(37:12):
And at that time, she decided toget a masters.
As she was running her business,she wanted to go back to school
and do a masters in architectureand, and then that's where I
sort of offered up, well, I can help finish up your work that
while you're in school, though she was working during school.
So she's a remarkable that way that she's able to juggle that.

(37:34):
But that introduced me to residential, which was a whole
different world for me because it's not like a user group or a
sort of vague consortium of people that, you know, sort of
all have different ideas, but you're talking with, you know,
usually a couple or two people with very distinct ideas.
And the way Kelly was managing that, I was watching her, you

(37:57):
know, work with the the clients and the, and seeing how
different a world it was. So I like to learn on the fly
how to deal in the residential realm, which is quite specific
and very personal. And yeah, I remember, you know,
the details she would have me consider like everything has to
be considered, you know, in institutional work, you know, a

(38:17):
toilet roll holder can go there.That's fine.
I was going to question it. In residential, everything
becomes an element of design. And, and Kelly drill that into
me to understand that, you know,there's, there's no weak detail.
There's like always a strong detail, no matter how small it
is. And so then I, I sort of fell in
love with the focus and the detail and the immediacy of

(38:39):
seeing these homes develop and grow and, and hopefully I've
been able to contribute as much as I could there, Kelly.
Yeah, I, I find it, I find it interesting because, you know,
you go to school and you may or may not have an idea of what you
want to do with your life or you're trying to still figure it
out. And what I find so dynamic about
it is that there's just, there'sso much opportunity that exists

(39:02):
that that goes so far beyond what you could have thought.
And I like, I didn't go, to be clear, I didn't go to school for
architecture. I have nothing to do with it.
We, we build it. But then on the right side,
it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it'sa realm that allows and affords
you so much opportunity to see the world and to allow people to
experience how they get to go through this world.

(39:26):
And and I, I'm going to use the word again, but experience the
world, whether it's wherever you're going to put that sink
and faucet and, or you're gonna,you're gonna really impact
someone's day when they get to go home at the end of the day
and they have the sanctuary of the home to be able to calm them
from whatever they're dealing with outside.
So there's like there's just endless amounts of opportunity.

(39:47):
I think it's an interesting commentary on scale and really I
think that the the self and the individual is really just a
point of departure to the general.
So I mean, you talk about publicrealm and connecting cities and
and and that sort of connective network of a of a city lease
out. But you guys talking about, you

(40:08):
know, where to put every considered piece of domestic
life. I mean, I think that.
It's all related and it's all are like you say, you're our
individual journey on a daily basis in the area that I'm
working on in this public buildings.
And it's not just higher Ed, it's government buildings and a
few many other typologies. What I love about it is the

(40:30):
constant discovery, right? The constant state of learning
and technology and innovation isalso part of that.
So I, I feel very privileged and, you know, almost giddy
sometimes that the opportunitiesthat I get to, to keep trying
things to just keep. And while you're, while you have
expertise and transferable knowledge from one technology or

(40:53):
one project, it can be then transferred to another.
And like you, Lisa, I think right now I'm in, I'm in a world
where where the integrated process with all of these other
specialists, it's just so fun really to just discover how
structure or, you know, fluid dynamic modeling for natural

(41:17):
ventilation systems actually starts to influence the
architecture or how the architecture needs to use that
as part of its palette of material in order to make what's
really important for the project, whether it's a
collective base, etcetera. But how are you working with
this, these other dynamics that are happening, these other

(41:37):
technologies that are, that are emerging to things like mass
timber and, and really try kind of trying to come back to
understanding what a material wants to do and how it wants to
behave. And so in, in a weird way, at a
very large scale, I'm kind of circling back to the world that
you guys were in with those finer levels of craft because of

(41:59):
the new materials and the new technologies that we're working
with. Jonathan, I chatted about this
earlier very minor public work and what we I found to be
striking about the difference isyou do a residence and you're
very involved during the processand the residents when when the

(42:22):
project is completed, the project closes.
You can no longer just watch in or as public work when the
projects completed, it opens andthere's something amazing about
that. And so we do have, as Rob Rob
mentioned, an amazing contact with clients in the nicest
compliment of client can pay youin your best moments.
They tell you, you've taught them how to see the world in a

(42:42):
new way and it really is touching and, and gratifying.
But, um, and we do say that we, you know, the cities are built
one house at a time, but there is, I guess I'd say a missing
component and, and the public, when you do a big public work
the way you do and literally thousands, millions of people
going through that work, that isan amazing opportunity and that,

(43:03):
that the private work doesn't have.
But they, you know, you can also, I think the residential
work, you can conceive of the entire thing.
You can keep the whole thing in your head.
It's sort of a, an amazing sculpture as a project.
And I think it's a great laboratory to try things out
that you can exploit to larger projects.

(43:23):
So I'm going to ask. I'm going to ask a different,
different tone of question. What was the most unexpected
opportunity or challenge you encountered early in your
career? Watching you, Lisa.
Don't ask me for. Think about that.
No, I'd say it's a recession. Recession hit us hard.

(43:43):
We were, we went to school and had Co-op terms when, you know,
people were still doing, you know, Terrazzo Cove bases and,
and there was, you can see buildings from the late 80s and
90s that were the rich palette of materials that were actually
used in those. There was a lot of money.

(44:04):
There was, there were jobs to behad.
There were choices I could choose to, to leave town and,
and, and working in another townand, and the recession I think
hit us all hard. So that was unexpected, but as I
mentioned before, you know, quite, it was a bit of
serendipity, I guess, but the travel that I took advantage of

(44:24):
and not, not everybody did that.You know, I, I was just, I,
that's what I wanted to do. So I just went, I went to places
and I called people up and said,do you have a job for a foreign
student kind of thing? But that, that gave me the
courage to leave. And, and I would think that for
our generation, not everybody did that.
So we had a lot of people actually fall out of practice, I

(44:47):
think. We're sessions do have a way of,
of some people are burned by them and are scared by them.
And, and I think it closes you down and I think other people,
it is an adventure. I also was inspired to go to New
York. I mean, really to get a job and
for the adventure and it and it,I, I actually got together with
my wife there and it was just a great opportunity to live in New

(45:08):
York at a young age. And so I think, I think that
recession taught adventure and inspired that.
And then the other project was as I've alluded to in early
opportunity to to build a house in the city, we discovered an
undersized lot of 13 foot wide lot and and had the opportunity
to build that. I think it taught us resilience,

(45:30):
how to react and that kind of economic environment where
options would open up and what you could possibly do and and
not necessarily distinctly that that field.
And that in the sense sort of sort of toughens you up a bit, I
guess in the sense that you wanted to forge ahead and do
things that you don't think you could do, but you can and don't

(45:52):
ever think you can't. So I think you should always
even we were trying to look for a space for the office when you
decided to actually not being myparents basement and said
started wandering around downtown and going into
warehouse buildings, looking into doorways going is any
spaces for rent in this crap hole drill thing.
Oh yeah. I talked to the guy there and
landlord, 95 year old. I just caning it around and

(46:15):
yeah, 600 bucks. OK, you know, and I'll send you
have a studio and you're where'swhere's the work?
The work will come right there. We started in a pretty rough
place, but if it did happen. I think that kind of more
difficult times did kind of teach us again, the resilience

(46:37):
and just to kind of have an entrepreneurial spirit.
And even the Co-op program was kind of lost with how we were
going to get our 7 credits to graduate when there was no work.
I mean, I know people that wrote, did research and were
able to get credits. And I, I know that I paid my way
through one year of school by sewing sarongs and sending

(47:00):
Marianne Bull to sell in the market in Kingston.
And we got credit for starting and running a business.
And so all of this kind of outside of the box thinking, we
all kind of had to do it, whether leaving or just the, you
know, just taught us that, you know, as we did kind of go
through school, that time did leave a bit of a void when

(47:24):
things did get better where there was just a gap in
knowledge because those who people left the profession, but
there was also not a lot of work.
And there was a point in time where you just didn't have a
kind of level of knowledge within the industry because of
those tougher times. You know, actually, you know,
one of the things I think that was interesting about that time

(47:46):
too, which is kind of hard to explain, but it's, it's actually
kind of unique to Waterloo is that Despite that, like we all
scattered, like we all went to, you know, my roommate went to
South Africa where he was from and, and another one went to
Singapore and, and someone else went to Basel, Switzerland and,
and, and, and Donna Dyken went to, to the yellow knife.

(48:09):
I, I went to Hong Kong. We, we scattered.
And this is all pre Internet, right?
And this is somehow we still maintained very tight
relationships. I don't know what it is about
water, but but somehow we're still so tight.
Like even if we saw each other tomorrow.

(48:29):
See, it's really like a very, very close knit community.
I think it's actually very special about about here.
We just and maybe it had something to do with how
particular and special program was with those Co-op terms or
cultural history or the Rome trip.

(48:50):
You know, they really did createthese life altering experiences
and you're kind of friends for life and that really happened
here. Well, that's, that's, that's
feeling I got when we got on ourgym call to prep for today.
And you were everyone was sayingthis is the first time we're
kind of all back together again.And how, how joyous that is to
be able to bring back those feelings, right.

(49:12):
And to have had such my humble day and prolific careers and
what you've gone off and done tobe able to come back and, and do
you know, do something like thisand share the those types of
stories. Thank you, Waterloo.
When the panel spoke about moving into residential
practice, one idea kept surfacing.

(49:33):
There are no weak details in a house, Every element has to
carry its weight. The front door is the perfect
example. It's the first tactile
experience someone has with a home the moment they reach for
the handle. The quality, proportion and
material set the tone for everything inside.
The Doors focuses exclusively onthose exterior systems that

(49:57):
ranges from beautifully engineered front doors to
massive lift and slide openings that blur the line between
inside and out. They also provide curtain wall
solutions that can turn an entire elevation into glass
while still performing like a precision built envelope.
These aren't afterthoughts, they're defining architectural
statements and the way they operate, seal and endure is

(50:21):
critical when you're designing ahouse with no compromises.
You can't leave doors and glazing systems to chance.
The Doors brings technical expertise and options that align
with the architecture instead ofworking against it.
Just as the panelists stressed, success comes from eliminating

(50:41):
weak points, and that starts at the front door.
If you want to learn more about the doors and how we at Walden
Homes have worked with them on projects with SMPL Design Studio
and Eisen Architecture and German Dell Architects will then
reach out to me. My e-mail address is
jonathanthatsjonathan@waldenhomes.caand I'm happy to connect you.

(51:05):
You, you kind of touched on it before, Lisa, you talked about,
you know, walking into a room and it's one architect and a
whole bunch of engineers. I'm curious to know when you
look at the other professionals outside of architecture, so the
engineers, planners, developers,how do they influence your
approach to design and practice?Because I know that it's really

(51:25):
easy to, or I actually take thatback, it is not really easy.
So let's retract that. You go through school and you're
learning about architecture, butlearning about all the other
consultants that make the architecture work completely
alter the way you see it and theway it gets constructed.
So how has that, how has that shaped the way that you pursue

(51:48):
the craft? I think that I take to keep
coming back to the community andhow we kind of started maybe our
careers here and working in these tight groups.
But the sort of working with outside consultants or larger,
broader requirements or has contracts change or that scale

(52:11):
change. Coming back down to the people
you're working with and understanding what they need and
understanding what you need and kind of working in that
community of solving problems together really is how you kind
of. Work.
Things out like we keep going back to the group projects and
story after it's gonna make a joke about everything, but at

(52:32):
the end I've just thought I'm going to get a 0 because I never
want to work on another group project again.
But really, those group projectsreally teach you a lesson that
if you hear what everyone else needs or how they work or what
they care about, and you can kind of all get together and
figure out. Maybe it's a utopian way of

(52:53):
thinking, but that's kind of howat least I try to work my way
through all of these things now,because you can't take a zero in
the real world and take two weeks off.
So that's kind of that the how Iapproach working, just trying to
make it about the people at the table and what they're trying to
solve. Are I would say that one of the

(53:14):
experiences I had working with consultant that really changed
the way I was thinking about space was I working with an
acoustician and actually really digging into just how volume,
scale and dimension change the dynamics in in the space for
acoustics. And you know, you start thinking

(53:36):
about yourself, sort of pushing and pulling the space and how
that influences a sense that in architecture school, you don't
really get that exposure in architecture school, but
starting to actually feel the impact on, on, on, on the
auditory environment. And then that translated to

(53:58):
material quality and just angling a wall or, or creating a
primitive root diffuser to breakup the sound.
And, and, and all of a sudden you realize that you were
actually playing with the sensory environment through
material shape, size and scale. And it was just one of those
mind blowing experiences to really just sort of think about

(54:19):
base, not through the choreography or the light, the
things that we had kind of captured in our studies, but to
now think about it as this spatial environment that we were
impacting the sound of the spaceand how, how, how that felt.
That for me was a real aha moment.
And, and today working in mass timber, I mean, the relationship

(54:42):
we have with the structural engineers is just so integral to
what we do that I think that, you know, it's actually fun to,
to see the new potential in, in,in what you're doing by working
very closely with, with other consultants.
I currently share office space with Blackwell Engineering and

(55:03):
so it's a great opportunity to breakdown barriers.
You hear what people say after they hang up the phone for
meeting. So we know we're stupid
architects. They know what they are, but
it's, it's, it's great to have that open, open concept office
space and learn that. And I looking back to a

(55:25):
recessionary role I had, which was in a design build role where
I actually designed it and then built it.
We, we renovated a Ron Tom houseearly, early on and you know,
we're literally building board form walls.
And so that taught lots of greatlessons.
It was a great house to work on.So seeing that house across days

(55:45):
and seasons, we learned a lot about an incredible piece of
architecture. There was a great reciprocity
with the landscape, you know, respect for materials, empathy
with makers, all of that that I think helped me eventually do
those that that helps me to workin the residential Rd., the high
level craft in the residential role.
I would recommend challenging the engineer, make it more

(56:09):
complex. If he thinks or she thinks it's
easy, I would push it and make sure your ideas, you know,
flourish with the engineers help.
And we're fortunate Black Belt Blackwell being one of them that
actually like getting pushed because engineers, I thinks, you
know, not generalizing, but theylike a sort of status quo.

(56:29):
It's safe and you really want a special residential.
You want to create some unique items and they might, you know,
wince, but I would push them. Yeah, I would say push them even
more on larger projects where potentially there's less desire
to want to do anything different.

(56:50):
So I think as architects, if we could just keep pushing.
I think also it's appreciated even though everyone does think
you're the dumb architect on theblock, in the end they
appreciate you for and also participating in finding the
answer with them. Well, that that kind of creative
problem solving is so necessary now.

(57:11):
And and so this consultant question extends to the
builders. And I think that's, that's
actually the the most warning projects that we work on is, is
where we can really deeply collaborate.
And deeply collaborating means that at a certain point,
everyone on the project understands the prioritization

(57:33):
of what really matters in the design so that we all know what
we're protecting and we all knowwhat is it can, can, can be
modified. And, and that's where having
that joint vision from design through building is, is actually
essential to, to successful projects in my mind.

(57:54):
And you know, again, we are speaking, I am speaking from a
position of, of, of great opportunity.
I've had opportunity to work with consultants like Trans
Solar in, in New York, who are these climate engineers who are
just, you know, they, they give us ideas that are like raw

(58:15):
material for, for exploration when they kind of tell us how an
environment is being altered by,by certain moves and, or the
potential for a certain site to take advantage of a certain
sustainable approach. And so I just think it's it's
really enriched by by a collaborative sort of

(58:35):
opportunity to think together and solve problems together.
How do you manage the vulnerability of being an
architect? The just so you know, the
silence afterwards, we'll just edit it out.
I think you. Should lose exposure to
liability is that. I mean, no, I mean the

(58:56):
vulnerability in that in, in, inresidential that the people are
going to experience it on a daily basis.
And if there's something they didn't like, they're going to
look at it all the time. And there's that in public, in
the public sector, you know thateveryone's walking through it
and everyone's giving their opinion of something that you
have. There's people that that write

(59:16):
about it. There's competitions you're
going to enter into, and if you feel it was the best piece that
you've ever created and it doesn't win the award, you deal
with that. There's the vulnerability of
sitting in a room and having thepotential engineer or some other
consultant tell you that your idea is not going to work or
that it has to get altered in the in a different way.

(59:38):
Or there's a builder out there that's telling you it's not
gonna it's it can't get it can'tget necessarily felt in the way
that you have suggested. So there's just this amounts of
vulnerability. So how do you like, how do you
compartmentalize some of that and manage it?
Seems we have no self doubt, allof us.

(01:00:02):
We were happy with it. Through the joke.
Yeah, we ran through the gauntlet in Waterloo.
It's like, OK, now what? I mean what I mean.
I made origami. No, every day is a battle.
I mean a little bit, I mean a fun battle, but a battle.
So it's, I always talk about it.Is it, you know, are you, are
you cooking stuff? Are you, is it a circus?

(01:00:24):
Is it a war? You just don't really think.
You focus on the vulnerability. You just focus on trying to do
the best, squeeze the juice out of everything and make it the
best way and, and your team works together to figure out
what that is. And so it's sort of force of
will and you bring all your skills to it.
And, and so the you kind of honewhat you think is great and you

(01:00:49):
never stop until you think it's great.
And so, you know, you don't get it right every time, but you're
you always think you're on the right side of making the world a
better place, or you try to. Yeah, you find your own truth in
the project that you feel embedded with.
So Kelly and I will share that feeling in this project that
will be this is the way it has to be regardless of some

(01:01:11):
naysayers or what Not bad. And when you're honest with
yourself and with the client, I I think that it helps the
project have its own, you know, weight or its sole or they're
going to call it. Yeah, just bring your truth to
it and and be true to yourself, especially in these kind of

(01:01:31):
designing moments. I'd add that some you just don't
get it right all the time and some days are tough and you just
pull up your socks and you come back the next day and you try
again. Yeah, and, and I, I like what
you, you just said, Robert Boat,trusting yourself, trusting your
experience, knowing that you've had, you know, a soundness in

(01:01:55):
your critical thinking, you understand or you trust your
experience. And, you know, to return what I
was saying, like, you know, yourown personal experiences is not
necessarily ego that that that makes you say that that is the
right thing to do. It's actually just trusting that
if I'm experiencing something, if I understand something, if I
understand how I react to a certain space or place or size

(01:02:17):
or scale or dimension, that my experience is about the size of
a place. That is a great scale for
conversation. Or or or.
Or a space that's a great scale for for public gathering or if
I'm intimidated by something. That feeling is probably common
among others. And so you trust that.

(01:02:38):
You trust that ability to actually translate and project
that. And you go to bat when you need
to go to bat. But you also have to have the
soft skills of being able to communicate and to communicate
the vision strongly enough so others understand it and believe
in. It, it doesn't feel personal in
a way. As Rob said, it's the truth of
the project. And so you're, it's almost like

(01:02:59):
you're advocating for this thingthat has a life of its own.
And so it doesn't feel, as Carolsays, your ego.
It's it's you feel you're just advocating to shape this thing
the way it wants to be. I have one or two other
questions, but I also like to open it up to anyone that is
here. If there are questions that you
want to ask, I have two wirelessmicrophones I can bring out.

(01:03:22):
And if you want to ask a question, happy to have you ask
it. Would anyone like to ask a
question? Is there any?
Yes. OK, so hold on Drew, I'm going
to steal yours. So it's really inspiring here,
but hearing about all of your different professions after
architecture school. I just wanted to know if you had

(01:03:43):
any advice for current students here for either, like looking
for a Co-op. Job or like what to do, like to
make more connections or talk toyour professors or anything like
that I think. I, I mean, maybe I'm repeating
myself a little bit. I mean, I think there's,
there's, I think you just try tobe fully immersed in what you're

(01:04:09):
doing and, and open to every experience and that's all you
can do. And it leads to good things.
There are highs and lows. And as I said previously, I
think these things make more sense looking back and you can
feel you're not in the moment oran ideal trajectory, but it
will, it'll work out. And, and these skills that

(01:04:32):
you're acquiring one piece at a time.
Carol was talking earlier about,you know, orderves and bite
sized pieces and you build and you build.
And before you know it, you've all like, we've all, I think
arrived at a certain place in our careers that's we all feel
fortunate to have arrived at. And there's no magic.

(01:04:52):
I don't think there's magic advice other than being open,
committed and hard working and and it'll all work out.
One piece of advice I I wanted to state is to speak up.
Ask for work asked to participate.
I know oftentimes as a student or as the new person and there's

(01:05:17):
a lot of frenzy going on and particularly with a lot of
office being remote or this ideathat you shouldn't go to the
office. Go to the office, participate,
ask questions, ask if you can sit into the meeting with the
supplier, ask if you can go on to the site.
I have a, I have a Co-op studentnow and he's always asking for

(01:05:37):
stuff. Don't feel like you're bothering
anybody. Don't feel like you're not going
to get what you need. Your, your career and your Co-op
charm is much in your hands and kind of participate in trying to
get what you need because that that is like, no one is gonna
fault you for making the most out of that time in an office.

(01:06:01):
And really, everyone's really always wanting to ensure that
Co-op students are actually learning something and that
we've done a good job. Because the worst thing we can
do is have someone leave and notlearn both professionally but
just as people. I already told Jonathan this, so
I need new material, but it's it's listening to Steve Martin

(01:06:24):
interview, an old Steve Martin interview.
And he said just be undisputedlygood at something.
Just be so good that people can't ignore you.
And I mean exactly how, Lisa, hedoesn't tell you how to get a
script in someone's hands or howto get a job or what to say at a
cocktail party. He just says be good at
something. And as if you're doing all the
things Lisa just suggested. I think you'll be seeing that.
You'll be you'll be viewed that way.

(01:06:45):
I'd like to add two things. One of them is actually to
reinforce that piece and and Lisa, your experience of doing
barrier free washrooms, you, youdon't know how many times I've
actually used that 17 exact example with people in in the
office. I said, it doesn't matter if
you've been given the barrier free washroom, you become the

(01:07:08):
expert at the barrier free washroom.
You become the source. So that when some experienced
architect in the firm wants to understand what is the turning
radius like what, what is the position on gender neutral here?
What does the OBC say? They actually feel that they can
come to you and you know it and you know how to lay out the tile
and you know exactly what the, the, the slip resistance, you

(01:07:30):
choose the grout. You actually understand
everything you know about it andyou become expert in that when
you become expert in the next thing you've been giving.
And and so for me, I think that that is to just really dig in is
a huge piece of advice that I I keep telling you.
And it is the barrier for your shirt that I use.
But stairs. Yeah.

(01:07:52):
But the other thing is, and I think you've heard it here today
is, is that it does matter whereyou work.
The experiences that you have are kind of like these stepping
stones to to who you're going tobe eventually.
And so, so choose wisely. And that doesn't mean choose the
most accomplished, the most award-winning place, like really

(01:08:13):
dig into the thing that you actually find value in.
And, and if a firm has that in their portfolio, something you
connect with, then chances are you're going to get something
out of that. And if you're not having a good
time there, don't be afraid to leave.
And I know that the Co-op peoplehere are probably just saying,

(01:08:34):
don't say that, but you know, I had, I had a job in Vancouver
that I landed in and I was miserable.
The culture of the place was notaligned with me.
It, it felt bad and I left it and I went and found something
else. And I learned so much more in

(01:08:56):
that eight-month work term by taking my chances and working
somewhere else. And, and it was, it was
understanding something doesn't feel right for you.
If the culture and and we talkedabout learning joy and balancing
joy and rear in the place that we we, we all came through and
that lesson persists. But also don't despair if you're

(01:09:18):
at a place because I mean Dick Stevens office, we have a number
of colleagues that went through there.
It it's hard to draw a straight line back then to you being
queen of trans of 36,000 person firm.
So I mean, I had faith, but you it does, it doesn't.
It's not always predictable. And so head down, open hard

(01:09:42):
work, all the the more descriptive descriptions of how
to do that. Don't despair if you're a job,
it's one day at a time. Just going to add Drew had a
great comment with Steve Martin comma being good at one thing.
I remember with the AutoCAD had just come out and some offices

(01:10:03):
had like 1 computer station out of 6.
And before that session of coop,I actually got the Autodesk for
Dummies book that really, you know, condensed book and
actually went through it and read it in the months prior to
the coop session, which ultimately got me comfortable
enough to say, yes, I am very good at this.

(01:10:23):
I, you know, I, I know to make attributes so I can do blocks
and all that kind of stuff, which ended up at the forefront
of that technology was started getting introduced to PB.
I was and sort of in a position where I have a lot more
responsibilities given to me because of that because other
people just didn't really care because they're all designers
and I was more involved in the technical components of stuff.

(01:10:45):
So those interests that you focus in and hone in and become
as good as you possibly can and then move on to another idea or
component or skill because it's,it's about skills and you know
how well you perform. I want to contribute to that
too, even though I'm not on the panel.
And I think one of the most important things that you can

(01:11:05):
ever do when you're coming out of school is to make sure that
you're you are, you're not leaving a bad taste in people's
mouth as you depart and you enter into the workforce.
You want to maintain relationships with people in
some way. If you didn't get along with
someone, that's fine, but it shouldn't be a burned bridge.
It should be something where youamicably left it alone.

(01:11:27):
And as you, as you enter into the workforce, maintain
relationships with people. Send a text message to someone,
wish them well. You know, take note of people's
birthdays. Put it in your phone.
Send them a note on saying happybirthday.
It sounds really silly, but it means something like you on your
birthday. When you get a text message from

(01:11:49):
someone, you you know that you're gonna get it.
Every year that person stands out in your mind.
So there's small, indelible things that you can do that can
really make you stand out as an individual, and it's the person
that stands out as an individualthat's generally going to find
their way towards something thatthey're going to love to.
Do so. I suppose stealing A roll of
mylar is not on the on the departure.

(01:12:13):
No look. Is there anyone else that would
like to ask a question? OK.
So I'm in 3rd year and obviouslyright now we're very much like
swamped in in like finals and all that.
And I think being in this position position, you're really
thinking in the short term and just kind of thinking about
getting through the term and then kind of experiencing coop.

(01:12:35):
I'm really interested in how youguys thought about your futures
when you're at this age and how you kind of understand, like why
you might be doing it after bachelors or after masters.
I after 30 or I think I took a year off.

(01:12:55):
There doesn't need to be anotheranswer.
Well, well, I, I, I did it in effect so I can work.
I, I was able to get the funds necessary to do the Rome trip
because I knew I was going to stay in Europe for a year.
So I sort of, you know, filled my wallet as much as I could
and, you know, bump into you there.

(01:13:17):
Did you bump into each other on Vespas?
About that time, yeah. I thought I didn't know that I
would be saying, you know, self-employed architect.
I, I just, you know, I knew I'd be in the field.
I loved it. And you know, how it's evolved
is if that's just life happening, you know, so the

(01:13:41):
passion is there. It'll it'll it'll carry you
through. You've got to have a plan, but
but I think Waterloo not sets you up, but lights you up,
inspires you to to have an idealversion of a career and that
there is an amazing period of reconciliation with the world
and the places you fall you. I think, I think people have, I

(01:14:04):
would guess that upon graduation, people have a very
calm and idea of what they want to achieve.
That's superstar museum work. And it's an incredible thing to
watch a slow unfolding of peoplefinding their places and happy
places and evolving and shiftingpriorities and families and
commitments. And so it's a process.

(01:14:26):
And so I think we're reflecting fondly on on our early career
where you are now and then we'velanded in in a different place
now. But but it it is a period of
reconciliation with the world. That is, that is, it's a thing.
Yeah, I mean that I would say that I'm trying to think back to

(01:14:48):
like third year and like prior to the Rome term.
And, you know, you mentioned vulnerability and I, I can
actually recall being like addled with like a
vulnerability, you know, can I, can I do this like what's coming
next? You know, you, you never maybe I

(01:15:10):
wasn't that pleased with the project that came out that year.
And I, I landed in Barcelona andI was just completely inspired,
just completely, just incredibly.
And, and again, we keep going back to how old we are and then
we pre Internet. But you know, what was showing
up in the magazines back in, in,in, in North America were, you

(01:15:34):
know, marsupial and these reallygreat interiors with cracked
stone that looked like derivative of Gowdy or
something. And that's what everybody
thought was happening in Brussels.
That's not what was happening inBrussels on it was like the new
minimalism was coming through and and and it was just this
incredible, incredible, like mind blowing experience.

(01:15:58):
And I guess I'm circling back toconfidence.
I'm circling back to trusting yourself.
I'm circling back to exposing yourself to experiences and
trusting the thing that moves you to help guide your next
step. And and and I think that, yeah,

(01:16:18):
having a plan, obviously I'm nota strategic thinker is more
generative, I think, but I don'tthink you know necessarily that
I have a goal and I'm going to take these steps to get there.
And maybe you are that and you have to recognize that in
yourself as well. If, if that's how you think,
then do that, you know, you create the version of yourself

(01:16:39):
and then map out the steps to get there.
But if, if, if you, my advice, if you from from my experience
is to genuinely experience the things that bring you, you know,
inspiration and joy, and then try to discover what your next
step is from the things that actually inspire you.
It could take awhile to figure out what you're good at, things

(01:17:01):
you might not imagine. Now you could be a, a
communication person, you could be an administrative person.
We all know people that have graduated, we've gone into
adjacent areas like they've worked in house for companies in
brand experts, they've been developers, technical experts in
architecture, office facade experts.

(01:17:22):
I mean, there's an incredible range of opportunity and you
sometimes timing is, is something that you can't
control. The timing and opportunities
will take you places you may never have imagined, but there's
a great range of opportunity foryou to find what you're great at
and can enjoy. If, you know, Elsa Lamb is also

(01:17:42):
a graduate of, of Waterloo and you know, she's helping run
Canadian Architect magazine. So there's, there's like,
there's really, and part of the reason why we want to put
together a dynamic panel is because there is so much
opportunity that exists. So again, I'm not a part of this
per se, but generally, if you'relucky, you're going to walk

(01:18:03):
through a door cause someone's going to hold it for you.
So as you go through, you want to make sure that you're holding
the door for the next person because hopefully that chain
continues and doors stay open and you find your way into the
place that you want to be. Structure really is incredibly
unique. It does train you to think and

(01:18:24):
multitask and be able to organize in a way that other
disciplines can't. So that also offers you
incredible opportunities for those that maybe want to take
less traditional roles, particularly in large scale
projects. I architects are the ones that

(01:18:44):
are able to manage things betteror put people together.
So that the training that we get, and I'll say the training
in Waterloo and also the the, the Co-op program that allows
you to learn those skills early on are invaluable.
And I really think that there's endless possibilities in through

(01:19:06):
our education and training and what we can do.
After this very bare tight. So you mentioned how a lot of
your classmates went abroad because of the recession.
Do you think there's like 1 aspect of your education or
particular skill like soft or hard that enable people to work
like all over the world, especially since like, you know,

(01:19:29):
construction techniques and stuff very well.
I would say it's part of it is just being open minded, having
a, a likability that you can communicate that, that you're
willing to do and, and make the most of the opportunities that
are given to you. Um, it's, it's, it's a hard

(01:19:52):
thing to say. I mean, I think that the getting
back to the skill set that you were talking about, like being
good at one thing. I mean that for me, it turned
out to be that, that that openeddoors for me when I came back.
So when I was in Hong Kong, you know, I was catting.
Every, every day for 2 1/2 years.

(01:20:12):
And, and so when I came back, you know, I was able to get a
job at, at, at then tailor her RiRi Ponteri, now Hariri
Ponteri. And, and, and so to land into a
firm like that, just because youhad that skill was, was, was
really important. So if there is something that
you are good at, I would say hone it and, and offer that up.

(01:20:36):
But it's, you know, I, I don't know that there is a, there's a,
a magic to it. And, and now with the
availability of being able to contact firms all over the
world, it's maybe a bit more competition, but to know your
value and to also be willing to try what they have to offer.

(01:20:56):
And maybe it's not what you expected that you were going to
do, but to just grab onto it andrealize that if you're leaving
and you're going somewhere else,the majority of what you're
going to learn is about that place is about that culture, is
about the architecture there. You know, I had a fantastic
experience in the office I was in in Barcelona when I was a

(01:21:18):
student, but I learned from Barcelona.
That's that's where I did all the learning.
And I would say the same for even my time in Hong Kong, I
learned, I learned from Hong Kong in all the places I visited
in Singapore or, or, or, or Bangkok or Indonesia or Japan,
you know, these were, these were, that's where the learning

(01:21:39):
happened. It, it didn't really happen in
the office. And I think that early in your
career or when you're still a student, you just have so much
opportunity. Soak it in, you know, you just
do. And I know it seems risky, but
you really are so young and opento, to soaking in the world.
And that's the best advice I cangive to anybody as to soak in as

(01:22:01):
much as you can. That's great.
I think there can be some degreeof groupthink in aesthetic,
group think in certain eras. You know, you look back on what
what, what we were, what was on the front page of the magazines
when we were in school. I think I think list I worked
for some guys in that were Columbia graduates in New York
and they were trained in in a different way than I was.

(01:22:23):
They taught me a lot about beauty.
That was that was that stayed with me about proportion of
beauty that I wasn't maybe getting as much of in school
that I think was was great. So yeah, being open to that.
I think that applies to school as well, not just adventure
roadside at school. But I think, you know, sometimes
people whine about a professor that they don't agree with, but
I think just it's like a ticket on a ride.

(01:22:45):
Professors have a stick or a bagand they're good at it.
And you just go for the ride andjust go along with it.
And you can learn a great deal looking from another lens and
taking that on. And I think the variety of
inside and outside school experiences can be rich and give
you a great, rich, deep experience.
A good point because you know, it's like, how do you even know
what you like? You know, it's like when when a

(01:23:07):
menu comes around right now thatyou've never seen anything on
it, how do you even know what you like?
And so learning what you don't like is just as important.
I would say don't be afraid to just go and don't hold yourself
back because sometimes we can beour own worst enemy.
So yeah, just try different things and you'll learn from

(01:23:27):
everything. So it there can't be a downside
for just trying and going? Like about 13 months in a
backpack in Europe and absorbed as much as I could and then all
of a sudden Drew shows up and then and that was a pivotal
moment. Where was it?
It was a Gaudies was a Sagrada Familia.

(01:23:49):
Richard Meyer. Oh oh OK, my memory is going.
But yeah, Montreal. Montreal, expose yourself to as
much as you can, you know, I mean, and not, you know,
Internet stuff because that's you got to see, yeah, how to get
there, how to move. Like if you haven't been to is

(01:24:10):
corporate C's Rashawn the whole passage and the way to get there
is a journey in itself. So you can see beautiful photos,
but you don't experience the whole procession.
And the narrative of how to get get there is one of the hardest
places to connect to. I think images are a problem,
right? The slow unfolding experience of

(01:24:32):
a place is is. It can't be overstated
experiencing a. Place which I would add to to
say that when you, if you go there and you arrive, touch as
much as you can, breathe in as much as you can.
Like, remember what those senseswere like when you arrive,
because those are things that can stick in your mind in a

(01:24:53):
different way than the image will.
Light material promenade. Anyone else have a Yeah?
Thank you so much, hopefully this should be a fun question.
If you could go to any building in the world you would have
unrestricted access and you don't have to worry about how
you would get there. Which building would you go to
1st and why? Question.

(01:25:15):
I, I actually, I was really interested to see Lautner's
Sheats Goldstein house. And so I wrote him a letter.
I wrote the owner a letter and he, he wrote back and sent, said
the, the office wrote back and said show up at the gate at this
time in Los Angeles. And so I just showed up and he

(01:25:37):
gave me a, I think it was a two or three hour tour personally of
this residence that has all kinds of well, it's an
incredible, it's, it's appeared in Charlie's Angels and.
A bunch of one of Drew's favorites.
And I just so I think, I feel I did it.
It was fun. It was one of the greatest
houses I've seen. Big Lebowski was in the Big.

(01:25:59):
Lebowski the the one I wanted tosee never had was Pierre Sherose
miss all the veil in Paris. That's very challenging you want
to get into. But if that would be one that
I've missed on my itinerary of? My travels, I've written 3
letters to them. I got, I got in the court here,
yeah. I dragged my whole family to see

(01:26:22):
the Barcelona Pavilion and thought I was nuts, but I feel
like I've seen the yeah. Yeah, there's, there's the
greatest, the the list of 150 greatest hits.
That, that, that, that, that I don't, I don't know if I even
like scratch the surface of, but, but again, I'm going to

(01:26:44):
cheat a little bit. And then, and that's when I've
actually gone to but so Zumthor's Spa in vowels.
So arriving there with my, with my husband at, you know, he, he
sort of said, you know, I'm sorry to tell you, but it's
actually closed for maintenance.And I said, we're going to go

(01:27:08):
anyway. I just got to see it from the
outside. So we drove through the Alps and
we, we, we get there and that we're walking on the hill and
it's, it's nested into the hill and it's fabulous.
And, and then we realized we could just kind of like hop over
the fence. And then we realized we could

(01:27:28):
walk down onto, onto the outdoorbath area.
And then, and then my husband yearly is at the brass door and
he pulls it over. And so we did have unrestricted
access and it happened. Oh my God, It was like a
sculpture they just walking through and and and again, you

(01:27:51):
know, you know, I've talked a little bit about how you know,
this the shaping of space is andhow how it changes.
You like to walk through all of those little moments in that
space by yourself and actually just feel how space changes how
you experience a place. Yeah, we did it.
And so the lesson is always try the door.

(01:28:13):
But it's like, it's like a thinking of like Tom Cruise in
Vanilla Sky walking through Manhattan by himself.
Yeah, it was, it was, it was pretty amazing experience.
Any other questions? OK, so I'll, I will, I will ask
my last question. My last question is you've all
well established yourselves in your careers as as architects,

(01:28:34):
as professionals, children. Would this be a career that you
would suggest a child should go into or not?
If you don't have children, would you say yeah, I should, I
should. Say.
Yeah, kids should go into this. Yeah, they should pursue her
career in architecture. This is an easy one for me and

(01:28:57):
some of you might know my son. So, yeah, life is a student here
and, and, uh, so I think the answer is pretty easy for me.
Um, I, I would say that this is not a easy profession.
It can be stressful, it can break your heart.
It, it, it can be like you say, you know, you're exposed people,

(01:29:22):
you're always doing things that people tell you they like or
don't like. And, and you have to, you have
to detach yourself from, from that to some degree.
But we get to imagine the world everyday in, in, in, in a way
that we think is contributing tomaking it better, even if it's
on a personal level, even if it's designing for an individual

(01:29:46):
or designing for a conversation.These are all really, really
wonderful things. It's, it's also an opportunity
to, to learn deeply about our relationship with the planet in
the way that we construct and how we construct and, and, and,
and how we do that not only responsibly, but with respect

(01:30:07):
for the things that we're choosing to build with and
respect for other people. So I say, yeah, go for it.
Well, my, my son applied for to Waterloo and was accepted and
did not go but against my my advice, but it was, it was an
amazing moment because you never, I never had advocated for

(01:30:27):
him to go into this profession. But there is a magical time when
he's telling me he's going to apply.
So you just feel that your life doesn't look terrible, at least
from the outside to your children.
And but it's a moment because you're we're all in, right?
We're all in and we don't, we can't, you know, we're done.
We're going to decide it. So you don't really question

(01:30:49):
whether it's good or not. You just do it.
And but we so just have someone you love think about going into
it. You suddenly go, would I
recommend this? And, and I think, I think it,
it's, it was a, it was an interesting mental exercise just
to think, yeah, I love it. And, and it was exciting for him
to, to, to almost go here. I would say that I don't have

(01:31:19):
children, but I, you know, just in in sort of having I've had
many I take take your other friends children's to work day
and ended up convincing, unbeknownst to me, quite a few
people to go to architecture school.
And I think that it's we have a unique profession where you can

(01:31:41):
get to go to work every day and create a place where everyone
can work altogether and be creative.
And yes, it's a hard profession,but it does offer people place
to explore, to have fun, to laugh, to create the space where
you just want to go every day. And I just also being around a

(01:32:04):
whole lot of other professions, I'm not sure that those
necessarily offer that. So if someone is, you know, has
that interest in a very collaborative and communal type
of work, I would definitely encourage architectures and and
the profession. I wouldn't discourage my
children. I mean the eldest is not not

(01:32:28):
into it. It's just she's so hard nosed
beautiful young woman that's into the financial world now.
But the younger kids, I I can see either of them, they might
get interested in it. That would just lay out a sort
of idea of what's anticipate. But, you know, as long as I know

(01:32:49):
they were doing things that are making the world a better place.
And I think that's what we feel we're doing as we do our work
for the larger community around us.
So, you know, I would love them to do it if they'd like to.
And that's. Yeah, we'll keep it up to them.
I'll. Just Lisa, Drew, Robert and
Carol, thank you for participating in this.

(01:33:09):
Those that have joined as a partof a first ever audience for
this recording. Thank you for attending.
Thank you for your questions. And I, I really appreciate
everyone's involvement. It's it's been, it's been really
enlightening and happy. I'm happy that you said yes.
Thank you, Johnny. And, and thank you Waterloo for

(01:33:30):
having. US.
Thank you, Waterloo.

All Episodes

Behind the Build: Waterloo University Alumni - Carol Phillips, Robert Kastelic, Lisa D'Abbondanza, & Drew Mandel

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Crime Junkie

The Breakfast Club

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Behind the Build: Waterloo University Alumni - Carol Phillips, Robert Kastelic, Lisa D'Abbondanza, & Drew Mandel