July 10, 2024 • 43 mins
In part two of our conversation with Emilio Rodriguez, founder of Detroit's Black and Brown Theatre, we dive into the world of BIPOC theatre. Emilio offers an insightful look at the financial realities and operational complexities of running a theatre that champions diverse voices.
Listen in as Emilio explores:
- The juggling act of securing funding through grants, community support, and individual donations, while navigating the high costs of theatre productions.
- The unique challenges and considerations of working with both non-union and union actors within BIPOC theatre.
- How classic stories can be adapted for contemporary audiences, fostering inclusivity and representation.
- Black and Brown Theatre's commitment to the community, extending beyond the stage through workshops and projects.
- What his younger self would think of his achievements, and the importance of self-care for artists.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in BIPOC theatre, theatre operations, or the power of artistic expression in building a vibrant community.
Find the Black and Brown Theatre online!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rosanita (00:00):
Welcome back to behind the curtain.
(00:02):
Today, we're thrilled to bringyou part two of our conversation
with Emilio Rodriguez.
The founder of black and browntheater.
In this episode, Emilio takes usdeeper into the behind the
scenes world of theater fundingthe real costs of putting on a
show, and the unique challengesBIPOC theaters face.
We'll also hear about somecreative community projects and
(00:25):
how Emilio and his team aremaking theater accessible to
everyone.
If you enjoyed part one, you'regoing to love what's coming up.
Emilio.
You previously.
Touched a little bit on funding,right?
Since you mentioned the library,the Ann Arbor community
foundation, how exactly is theblack and brown theater funded?
(00:49):
Is it donations?
Is it ticket sales?
Is it?
Foundation money, a mixture.
Emilio (00:56):
Yes, it is a mixture of, of sources.
A lot of it is communityfoundation or different
foundation fundings anddifferent grants.
And then some of it is alsoother projects that we do.
We also do like character pop upprojects, which are, you know,
Are great because they're nottied to any grant and they don't
require any report and we justget to go have fun and show up
(01:17):
in character at differentparties and events.
And and then the last 1 isdonations.
So individual donations fromindividual givers and.
So yeah, we typically actuallydon't do a lot of ticket sales.
The number of shows that havebeen ticketed have been very
limited.
We try and make as many of ourshows as possible free and open
(01:38):
to the public.
But that means sometimes peopledon't understand just because
the show is free, it doesn'tmean no one got paid.
There was still money that wehad to get from either community
foundation or, or through adifferent grant source, or
sometimes an individual donor,or sometimes like the Michigan
theater, they paid.
For all of the actors and forthat show to be possible.
(01:59):
And, and they had donationsthemselves that heavily
subsidized the ticket price forthose performances.
So yeah, ticket prices, evenwhen shows are ticketed ticket
prices do not cover the costs.
Theater is incredibly expensiveto make, but that's why it's,
it's so great to have a varietyof grants and, and foundations
(02:20):
in the area that can helpsubsidize.
the costs of how incrediblyexpensive theater is.
Rosanita (02:28):
How expensive is theater?
Emilio (02:30):
Oh my gosh, theater depends on, on, because a lot of
the pricing can be based on,especially with non union.
It can just be based on thecompany, what the company
decides.
So companies here can justdecide this is how much we're
going to pay an actor.
The thing that sometimes peopledon't realize is.
That has to be multiplied.
So I remember one time I told,just to give you an example
(02:51):
number, one of the film projectswe did had a 25, 000 budget.
And one of the actors was like25, 000.
Well, that's a lot of money.
I didn't know you were spendingall this money on it.
And.
I was like, all right, let methink about it this way.
You're getting paid 1000, buteveryone else that they've had
in this project is also gettingpaid that amount too, because we
(03:14):
are fair and equitableorganization.
So times that by the number ofpeople who are in this room
right now, And then there arepeople who are not in this room
right now that have to get paidand then turn around behind you.
There is a giant set behind youthat was built up and look down
on yourself.
You're not wearing your ownclothes.
You're wearing a costume thatsomeone either had to make or
(03:35):
buy and look up.
Yes, those are lights, whichmeans someone had to program our
lights.
Turn to your left.
There is a camera right there.
This project is being filmed.
That's why we're getting thefunding.
But that person who's filmingright now, that person has to be
paid and they have to get paidto edit it as well too, because
it's not going to be fully, youknow, in, in the condition that
needs to be, they have to editit and make it what we want it
(03:56):
to look like for the finalproject.
And then there's somebody you'renot even seeing right now.
Who's making the music that isgoing to go in between all the
songs and the opening credit,the closing credit.
So there's so, there's just somany people involved and for
each person to make, to make itworth their time, each person
has to get some amount of money.
So the long answer is that,
Rosanita (04:14):
oh
Emilio (04:16):
yeah.
And the venue as well too,because we ran out a lot of
venues because we don't, wedon't have a permanent venue.
So even things like that, and isthere someone from the venue has
to be in the venue?
But yeah, the insurance.
Yes, so many, so many costs.
And the, and the truth is thateveryone can sort of set their
own prices, right?
Everyone, if it's a non unionorganization, they can decide
how much they're going to payeach actor and each artist and
(04:40):
each designer.
But even if they pay them asmall amount, just by the sheer
number of people that areinvolved in a project makes
theater so much more expensivethan people think.
We actually had one person askedme, they were like, can you do,
so how much does the show cost?
Like, you know, like a hundredbucks.
And I was like, I wish a showcost a hundred bucks because it
would be so nice if that's allit took.
(05:01):
We'd be able to do so much more,but, but because there's so many
artists that we want their timeto be respected as well, too,
because if you have 10 peopleworking on a project and a
hundred bucks divided by 10people, everyone would be
getting 10 bucks, which would bea lot to, to ask of people of
their time.
Rosanita (05:20):
You, you mentioned non union a couple of times.
Emilio (05:23):
Yes.
Rosanita (05:25):
Now.
Know that there's like it was anactor's equity and then you have
like the writer's guild and thenyou have of course the union for
people who who do lighting andother.
Crew member jobs, but is it evenpossible for a smaller theater
to be able to pay the, the unionwages or how can you get your
(05:46):
cast and your crew into theunion?
Is there a certain amount ofunion plays or performances they
have to do each year the sameway they do for the screen
actors guild or is it different?
Emilio (06:01):
The rules have actually changed.
So it used to be to join actors,equity association, you had to
go through a program called EMC,which is equity membership
candidate.
And you would basically what youwere saying, you would work at
several equity theaters, a, atheaters, and that's how you
would get points.
And you would get one point.
per week.
(06:21):
So if you rehearse for fourweeks and then you did four
weeks of shows you would geteight points and you needed 50
points was the old process tobecome eligible to apply for
equity to be a union actor.
Rosanita (06:36):
Equitable when I think of the lack of funding that
BIPOC theaters or even a ruraltheater.
Sorry to interject.
Emilio (06:46):
No, no, that's a great point.
And that's why actually becauseof COVID, so many actors had
dropped out of actors equitybecause you had to pay an annual
fee to be a part of equity.
And so many people said, well,if all the theaters are closed,
Why am I paying a fee?
We don't know how long this isgoing on.
So they changed their rules.
(07:07):
And now you don't have to havethe 50 points.
You just have to demonstratethat you have made a significant
contribution acting and havesignificant experience, which in
some ways, I feel like that'sharder because that's even more
opinion.
But like, how do you prove it
Rosanita (07:21):
significant?
Emilio (07:22):
Yeah, what is significant, at least before the
system, like the rules are clearand fair, even though they were
really hard, it was the same foreveryone, which was kind of
nice.
But this now is just kind oflike, try and apply and you'll
see if you get a yes or no.
So I don't know if they're goingto change those rules and go
back to their old model, ormaybe create a new model that's
(07:42):
still the same rules foreveryone, but maybe a little bit
easier, or maybe it can changeby region.
Because, as you mentioned,certain regions might not have
the same opportunities to do.
If you're in New York, you mighthave the opportunity to work
with an equity company everyweek.
If you're in Michigan, wherethere's only, you know, 4 or 5
equity companies and there'sonly so many amount of shows
(08:03):
every year then you don't havethe same opportunity to easily
accumulate 50 points or 50 weeksof experience.
Rosanita (08:11):
And if someone isn't at actor's equity, then there's
a base rate of pay, right?
And then is it the same too,where you also you're paying a
due, but then you would get likehealth insurance.
Emilio (08:24):
Sometimes we can do what's called a guest artist,
even though we're a non unioncompany, non union companies can
apply to have a guest artist.
I think it's limited to one ortwo per show.
So we did have one for, for oneof our performances.
And you have to.
Pay so you have to pay theirsalary based on the equity fees.
(08:44):
You have to pay their taxes andyou have to pay their health
insurance and then you have topay it to you.
Can't pay it yourself.
You have to pay a licensedagency that they approve and
then you pay the fee to theagency too because they have to
get paid for doing all thiswork.
So they get paid.
You know, an additional 20percent or whatnot on top of all
that.
(09:05):
And then all of those fees arepaid to the agency.
And then the agency pays theactor directly.
So that's one of the reasons whyit's so hard to book a guest
artist and why so many people inMichigan are sometimes afraid to
go join the union is becauseit's not that it, that you can't
work for a non union company isthat it's a lot of work for the
(09:25):
non union company to get youapproved and they have to have
in their budget.
enough funding to cover the costof a union actor because a non
union company can just saytheoretically to an actor, we'll
give you 250 bucks to, you know,do four weeks of rehearsal, four
weeks of shows.
And I have been on that actingend here.
And, and at that time I was justhappy to work.
(09:48):
Obviously it wasn't doing it forthe money.
I was working as a teacher andhad that.
Salary and income separate.
So I wasn't doing it for themoney, but I was doing it for
the love of, of theater, butthen a union protection says, Oh
no, in the state of Michigan,the minimum is like, let's say,
you know, depending on a smallaudience, the minimum is like
350 a week is what they have tomake for rehearsals and for the
(10:09):
show.
And so that's what they wouldhave to be paid per week.
Plus you would pay the taxes onthat.
And then you would pay thehealth insurance rate on that.
And then you'd pay the 20percent agent fee on top of
that.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that would, it wouldbe a big number that you would
have to have.
So you'd either have to go onticket sales and guarantee that
you're going to sell that manytickets or have the funding in
(10:31):
place in advance.
In our case, we were doing afree show.
So we had the funding in placethat we knew were going to be
able to afford it, but wewouldn't have been able to
afford it for all four actorsand we wouldn't have gotten
approved for all four actors,but we were approved for, for
one actor.
And we had the funding to dothat.
Rosanita (10:47):
And that's just on the actor part, right?
So then there's somethingseparate for the screenplay
writers and then there's aseparate union.
Like, if you're a costumedesigner versus lighting versus
set design.
Right?
Emilio (11:02):
Yes, I believe it's is the.
So everyone in design andproduction, they're in crew,
they're all in IATSE, and thenstage managers are actually a
part of actors equity.
So actors and stage managers aretogether in the same union,
directors and choreographershave their own union.
And then playwrights, wetypically use the dramatist
guild.
So it's not actually a union,but it is a guild that does Sort
(11:25):
of give you some protections andthey like, so I'm part of the
dramatist guild and there arecertain things like they will
help you negotiate a contract orthey'll send you a contract
template so that you can makesure that you're getting paid by
the standards of what otherprofessional playwrights are
getting paid or otherplaywrights who are on the Your
experience level are gettingpaid for this amount of work
(11:48):
that they're doing.
And so there's certain thingsthey'll negotiate, like
typically a standard will be,let's say, depending on the size
of the company, it can be like asmall organization can be a
minimum of like 500 to do yourscript plus 8 percent of the
ticket sales.
And then a larger organizationmight be like 4, 000 to do your
script plus 8 percent or 10percent of the ticket sales.
(12:12):
And then the, the union contractwill, they'll give you templates
that say like, these are thedates they have to pay you by.
And then some, Another reallyimportant thing for playwrights
is they cannot change a singleword of your text.
They can cross out stagedirections, but if you write
down that the actor says, I'mgoing to be late for work today.
They cannot say, Oh, I don'tlike that.
(12:33):
Just say, I'm going to be lateor running late.
They can't change that.
They have to say exactly.
I'm going to be late for worktoday.
Every single word, or the, theorganization, you can pull the
play.
If they're not doing that, ifthey're changing words, which I
did have 1 organization,
Rosanita (12:51):
you still get paid if they, if they change the words
and then you pull your script,you still get the full.
The contracted amount.
Emilio (12:59):
It depends on what your contract says.
And that's why you really wantto go through the dramatist
guild, because they will giveyou a template contract that'll
have an answer, yes or no answerto that, and sometimes it'll be
that you get the first half ofthe money.
So like let's say it's for acontract for 4, 000, the first
2000, then maybe you'll getthat, but you won't get the
second 2000, because that mighthave been depending on ticket
(13:21):
sales or season.
Underwriters who were countingon that script to be produced.
So that's why those things hadto be looked at in the contract
first.
And for me, when it happened tome, I decided not to pull
because I didn't know untilopening night and the actors
were so excited for the project.
But yeah, it definitely taughtme to be very clear in that
writing and to now I have acheck in date when I'm doing
(13:44):
projects outside of black andbrown theater with myself as
Emilio Rodriguez.
I'm able to check in before techweek to make sure that all of
the words are said as written.
Rosanita (13:53):
I'm thinking about how much a production costs if it's
a union production, right?
Because we are the state ofMichigan, you know, we were the
union state car industry, youknow, my parents, my mom, a
school, social worker.
My dad was a union negotiatorfor the district on behalf of
the teachers.
(14:13):
And so.
It is a topic that I find veryinteresting and close to my
heart, especially since back inthe day, unions were how people
were able to become middleclass.
Right?
And.
Even when we have the greatmigration from down south to,
(14:37):
you know, the Midwest, it wasbecause of union jobs.
And when I look at, you know,certain industries like theater,
and I think when you weretalking the rate of pay, be
like, we're missing.
It feels like we're still missout in in that particular
industry.
On being able to join the union,because of the stipulations of
(15:00):
how you can even join, but thenalso where the jobs that we're
able to get the roles that we'reable to get along with if you're
working a theater and if you'rein a rural area, because we do
live in rural areas as well.
It's that it feels like we'restill kind of left out of that
(15:23):
particular opportunity there.
And I'm also talking about thetheaters, because I don't know,
I just, I, I had assumption thata theater is like, I don't want
union workers, you know, I, Ifeel like theater is such a
close knit community that youwould want the best for, for
each other.
And I mean, if you can afford aunion production, that.
(15:45):
It is doing quite wellfinancially, right?
And so, since you started yourtheater company, has there been
a more positive change in thefunding for the theater for by
park theaters in in that fundinglandscape?
Well, when it comes from grantmoney, when it comes from, not
(16:06):
just from foundations, but alsofrom right?
Because the states have thedifferent councils.
You have the National Endowmentfor the arts.
And I remember reading anarticle where a representative
from the Michigan Arts Councilsaid, well, we just need more
people, you know, I'mparaphrasing, but we just need
(16:27):
more people to apply as grantreaders.
But then I also think.
How many of us even know how toapply to be a grant reader or
where to go to become a grantreader?
And it's just doesn't seem assimple as as that.
I don't exactly know whatquestion I'm asking, but
Emilio (16:49):
no.
There's a lot of great thingsthat you brought up.
First, let me touch on the grantreader because that's such an
interesting thing that you, youbrought up.
And it's something that I haveeventually become a, I was a
grant reader for MCACA for, forone round of things.
The only reason I was able to doit was I was working at a
different nonprofit for my fulltime day job.
(17:12):
They allowed me to have the dayoff.
To go do this because you haveto be in in that time.
It was like 2018.
We had to be in person for awhole work day and we had to
drive up to Lansing to do.
Yeah,
Rosanita (17:27):
it for the 21st century learning center funds.
Yes, I think that might havebeen 2015 2014 2015 somewhere
around there.
Yeah, we had two days in Lansingthat that we had to do.
And it is, and I only found outabout it because I was
subscribed to some obscure emaillist.
Emilio (17:49):
Yes.
Yeah.
And I found out about it throughthe nonprofit I was working for
and no one wanted to do it.
So they said, Abelio, do youwant to take a day off and go
and do this?
So it wasn't even something thatI was asked to do.
The nonprofit I worked for, theywere asked to send someone over.
So yeah, there is definitely.
(18:09):
Especially for grant readers,it's like based off of who they
know.
And then if you even know thegrants that you can go and ask
people, then you have to decidefor yourself, can I go to
Lansing or can I go to whereverthey're going to make this
decision?
Can I take a full day off ofwork for whatever they're
paying?
Because sometimes it's like, youknow, they'll give you a hundred
bucks or 75 bucks or whatever.
And that might not be enough incomparison to what you're making
(18:31):
in order to take a day off ofwork.
And Yeah.
And then sometimes you have avery limited amount of time to
read a whole bunch of material.
You usually have to come withthat prepared, and the day that
you're coming in is just to talkabout it.
It's not to read that.
So you're, sometimes they're,they're like, oh, well we're
paying you a hundred bucks tofor a day.
It's like, well, it's notactually a day, because I, to
(18:52):
spend two days reading all ofthese submissions and going
through all my notes that Icould come prepared to the
meeting.
So that's another thing is theequity.
Is it fair for people?
To even be a part of this, or isit designed for people who live
in that community, which what isthe racial makeup of that
community and for people who aremaybe retired or are not
(19:14):
engaging with what's new andbeing created right now?
They're just used to whatthey're used to in their
community.
And so you really have to havean excellent pitch on your grant
because they're not going toknow about you versus other
people.
Another organization in theirarea might have not as strong of
a pitch, but they were able tosee that show because they live
(19:35):
in that community or they havefriends that they're connected
with.
And they're saying, that'sactually what happened to me on
the, on the panel.
I was in someone was able todefend one of the organizations.
And I said, are we going basedoff of the grant?
Are we going based off of whatyou all know about the
organization?
Because that's 2 differentthings.
And that's where bias comes intoplay because that person liked
(19:56):
that organization and they werebringing up things that weren't
in the actual grant.
Another thing you touched on wasunion and non union.
And so yeah, one of the thingswith non union in an ideal
world, we'd be able to hire asmany union artists as possible,
but I think it's one to two isthe limit.
I could be wrong on that.
Someone Google it and correct meif I am wrong, but I believe it
was one to two is when, when wewere doing it, maybe it's just
(20:18):
based on the size of thecompany.
So that's all we were allowed tohave.
Rosanita (20:21):
Is that because you weren't?
One of the designated theaters.
Like, if you were one of thetheaters that was designated by
actors equity, then would you beable to have as many as you
wanted?
Emilio (20:35):
Correct?
Yes.
So, yeah, it's just the nonunion theaters that have a limit
of how many guests artists theycan have.
And then that's another thing tothink about too with funding and
who's able to even afford unionactors is a lot of times.
It is based not only just on thefunding source, but also on
individual donors, because ifyou know the right individual
donors, they can give you morethan a foundation can give you.
(20:58):
A foundation usually caps aroundtheir biggest grants are around
like, typically for theater, itcan be like 100, 000 is like a
big grant for a foundation.
And you can have a individualdonor easily drop 100, 000
without thinking about it.
If you know the right people.
Versus other companies, smallercompanies don't know anyone who
has 100, 000 to drop like it'sTuesday, right?
(21:20):
But those bigger companies knowthose people and so a lot of
times the bigger companies areable to survive because they
know the people who have thatmoney and they're able to bring
in people who have that moneyand will throw that money and
can write that check.
Without even thinking about itversus a lot, a lot of smaller
organizations are asking theirfriends and family and people
(21:41):
around them.
Can you give 50 bucks on myFacebook, you know, birthday
fundraiser and anotherorganizations like Facebook
birthday funder.
I'm just going to call it myfriend, Tom, and he's going to
write a check for 200, 000.
And then I'll get all the actorsI need.
So that, that inequity is, issomething that's hard to think
about too, because then it's Whoknows these people?
(22:01):
How do they know these people?
Why do they know these people?
All of those things come intoplay.
Rosanita (22:07):
Have you seen a change though since you first started
with BIPOC theaters being ableto access more funding either
through, you know, a friendnamed Tom or a patron who's on
plan was like, wow, that'sfantastic.
Here's 250, 000 or even like,you know, COVID relief funds,
which.
(22:29):
Was not plentiful enough in mymind for the arts, and I know it
came a lot later to overall.
Have you noticed a change in the7 years?
Emilio (22:40):
Yes, I would say definitely.
I think there are some greatorganizations like
CultureSource.
I think it's doing a reallygreat job of specifically making
that a requirement and they'relooking at things like, what
does your board look like ifyour board does not reflect your
community?
That's something we don't wantto consider.
And they're thinking not onlyabout race, but also about
disabilities and LGBTQ.
(23:01):
They're looking at all thosethings when they're thinking
about who is on your board andthat plays into their funding
decisions.
The thing about that, that was aculture source is a regranting
organization.
So they have a cap on whatthey're able to give versus some
other foundations that havelarger funding that they're able
to give are still sort of makingthat change and one thing that I
(23:24):
love too, again, about culturesources, they're not thinking
about how much an organization.
Is able to make, versus somelarger foundations are saying
they are making cutoffs bysaying the organization has to
have a million dollar permillion dollar operating budget.
And some of us are thinking,well, we had a million dollar
operating budget.
I don't know if we need yourhelp, but if we have, we had a
(23:45):
way to get a million dollars, I,we wouldn't need to apply for
this grant.
So that's some of the challengestoo that I'm, I'm still seeing,
but I'm loving that there aresome smaller organizations who
are saying.
Wait, people don't need to havea million dollars.
If they're applying for a 10,000 grant, that doesn't line up.
That doesn't make sense.
And also another thing culturesource did that I really loved
is they're thinking about howmuch time you're asking people
(24:07):
to put in a grant.
Because sometimes someorganizations will want, you
know, five, six, seven pages fora grant and all of this research
and audit and all of thesethings, and then culture source
is like, why don't we just givethem a Google form?
And just tell us about yourorganization, throw on some
video clips.
And I think that's so much moreequitable and reasonable to ask
(24:29):
an organization to do,especially they're applying for
5, 000 to ask for 10 pages ofwork for 5, 000.
We had to look at who has thecapacity to have someone on
their staff, write 10 pages.
And the honest answer of someonewho has the capacity to have
someone on their staff, write 10pages for a 5, 000 grant.
It's going to be a milliondollar organization because that
(24:50):
means they have a full timegrant person, or they might even
have a grant intern for theirgrant writing person who can,
Oh, we'll give this to the grantintern.
They'll give them the 5, 000grant.
But then you have organizationsthat don't have that capacity
and don't have that many peopleon their team.
And they have to make adecision.
Can I really spend the next twodays writing this?
(25:12):
10 page grant that I might notget, and it's only 5, 000.
And so a lot of times, yes, youdon't see as many smaller
organizations or BIPOCorganizations applying because
they have to make that toughchoice.
Is it really worth our time togamble to make 5, 000 to write
these 10 pages?
Or is it a better time for us tojust.
(25:34):
Try and go to some networkingevents and see if we can meet
five individual donors who willgive us a thousand dollars each.
And that'll be the same resultwith less work.
Rosanita (25:44):
Yeah, the latter sounds more doable as a BIPOC
organization, because I'm like.
You know, like, 10 pages, I'mthinking how long it took me to,
like, write a 10 page paper incollege.
Right.
And just for 1 grant, becauseyou can't do a cookie cutter
(26:05):
grant application either,because funders know each other.
Grant readers know each other.
Exactly.
Or you could have had a grantreader from 1 organization.
A grant reader for the nextorganization.
And they're like, I know thisone getting off of the heavier
subject there.
You're at interlocking rightnow.
Is that for something special?
Emilio (26:27):
Yes.
I'm a guest artist.
So I am working with the highschool students and we are doing
an adaptation of the frogPrince, but set in a Caribbean,
a fictional Caribbean Island.
And so it has been so wonderfulto get to work with the students
because Everything else intheir, their season right now is
things that they're used to andthings that they have
experienced and, and things thatare, are typically at a, a
(26:50):
theater training institution,but because our story is set in
a fictional Caribbean island, weare learning about things like
social dance, which somestudents have not got to do in
their whole four years in thisprogram, but maybe they grew up
with that, you know, especiallyBIPOC students, right?
They're like, yeah.
Social dance.
Yeah, I know what that is.
So they, they're able to expressthat talent that they maybe
(27:13):
didn't even realize was a talentbecause you don't get to use
social dance all the time.
If you're doing a Shakespeareshow or, you know, a Greek
tragedy, but if you're doing ashow set on a fictional
Caribbean island, bring out thatsocial dance, that is essential.
skill that you have that makesthe, it's fun for the audience
to watch.
It makes people feel connected.
And you know, especially in alot of black and Latino
(27:34):
communities, social dances iswhat we do every Saturday.
We go to somebody's party andthere's social dance being
played.
And so audience members canconnect with that.
And then people who don't knowthat world, maybe, you know,
more European audiences orpeople who just didn't grow up
with that, They get to learnabout something like, Oh,
that's, that seems really cool.
That's really fun.
(27:54):
Oh, I didn't think about socialdance as being such an an
important element to, tobuilding community and to
telling a story and social danceis the only element, there's
still like a full plot andeverything, but there's some
social dance elements that havebeen.
Really fun to play with and forand for students to think about.
I don't think they've everthought about that as a warm up
(28:15):
because it's a part of our warmup.
And that's something that I'vebeen thinking about with our own
company.
And when I go to other companiesas well, I like to challenge
what has been the norm for atheater warm up.
There are some standard stuffthat people do standard tongue
twisters, other standard, youknow, body rolls and things that
everyone does.
And something that we've beenplaying with and that I've been
(28:36):
using with these students too iswho gets to decide what is a
useful and beneficial warm upand what are their measurements
for deciding that.
Because if your parameter isthat a physical warm up needs to
engage every part of your Well,guess what?
Salsa dancing is engaging everypart of your core has to be
straight.
Your back has to be straight,fully engage your shoulders, but
(28:58):
don't move them too much.
And your hands have to be ableto move lightly and your feet
have to, you know, move side toside and front to back and your
face can't be dead.
Nobody dances salsa dance with adead ghost face, right?
You have to, you know, fullylive it.
And there's also some voicebeing thrown in too, because
you're, you're saying things,you're chanting things when
you're so, you know, so it's afull warmup that you're doing
(29:19):
that is.
It's really great for actors andengages every part of their
body.
It's checking in with every partof their body.
It's using their voice.
It's using their face and you'replaying off of other people
because you don't typicallysalsa dance by yourself.
You're dancing with other peopleand then you have to adjust with
your partner.
Someone leads, someone follows,and when you're salsa dancing,
(29:40):
you're not saying, okay, and I'mgoing to lead and you're going
to, it's something you naturallyorganically find between the two
people.
It's natural and you just haveto.
Listen without saying anything.
And so salsa dancing is one ofthe warmups we do here in
Interlochen, which has beenreally fun.
Even I've only been here threeweeks, but even in the three
weeks, the students have grownfrom day one.
(30:00):
Wallflowers being like, I'm amusical theater kid.
I don't know how to do thisrhythm.
So now they're like, okay, I'mstarting to get it.
Oh, okay.
You can't, you can't think aboutit the same way that you do a
musical theater dance of five,six, seven, eight.
You gotta just feel it out alittle bit more.
And so that has been probably myfavorite part of being here is
(30:21):
being able to introduce thestudents to something because.
There's a Tyra Banks quote Ilove that's different is better
than better.
And sometimes when I, you know,my first thought was I'm going
to this prestigious art school.
They've had these people withMFAs and PhDs and theater and
trading them.
And what am I going to have tooffer them that they haven't
(30:42):
already been offered before?
And that's, Something that Ilove for artists to take away,
particularly BIPOC artists, isthat we have something innately
special.
Even if you have a PhD inShakespearean theater, you can't
offer what I can offer.
And that's what I've been lovingabout this experience because
they haven't been able to dosocial dance.
And there's things that I've hadto teach them about even
(31:03):
relaxing into a character andthe characters that you play for
Shakespeare, aren't the samecharacters that I want on this
Caribbean island.
And it's been great for me toreaffirm that.
I have a skill, but it's alsosomething that I hope that I'm
able to share with other Bipocartists is don't compare
yourself to someone else.
Tap into what's special aboutyou, because you can always
teach people something whenyou're leaning into what's
(31:24):
special about yourself, and notcomparing yourself, but tapping
into your organic strengths, andthen people can learn from that.
Rosanita (31:33):
Looking back from where you are now and everything
that you've.
Accomplished now, right in thearts and in the lives of not
just the kids that you work withand the seniors that you've
worked with, but the audiencemembers as well.
I'd say even the grant readers,because they haven't necessarily
encountered the kind ofprogramming that you do.
(31:54):
How do you think 8 year oldEmilio would feel about where he
ended up?
Emilio (32:01):
Oh my gosh, I love that question so much.
And yes, like you said, even thegrant readers didn't know about
it.
We actually started a.
Relationship with the scarabclub because their executive
director at the time was one ofthe grant readers for a grant we
had applied for.
And they were like, I lovedreading about you guys.
Can you come and do something atscarab club?
So that sort of stuff happensall the time.
(32:21):
I think eight year old mecouldn't even, it's not
something that I would have eventhought about because I didn't
even know that was somethingthat existed.
I didn't even know theaterexisted until college when I
studied theater in college.
So.
8 year old me would be like,first of all, what is theater?
And second of all, how cool thatyou are doing this thing.
(32:42):
And obviously I think 8 year oldme would be a little bit more
excited about like the fairytale stuff and that element
because that's what I was intoas an 8 year old.
Also, I think it would be soincredible to see the leadership
position, to see thecollaboration between artists,
and then to see all of thedifferent things that I grew up
(33:05):
loving coming together.
So, like, us, Leaning intobooks.
Now we have a picture booksversions of our, our plays that
we have available now, andthey're like a bridge scripts of
the actual scripts we use, butjust shortened and then have the
pictures to correspond and thengetting able to do music as
well, which is something reallyexciting because music was, you
know.
Gonna be my major.
(33:26):
That's what an eight year old meand 13 year old me would have
wanted to be a songwriter.
So getting to write songs forthe organization that emphasize
the stories that we're workingon.
I think all, all of that wouldhave been incredible, but I, I
do think the song element andthe fairytale element would be
most exciting for baby Emilio tolook back at now.
Rosanita (33:45):
Looking back, is what you've created something that
younger you would have beenlike, Mom, sign me up today.
Emilio (33:54):
Ah, yes.
Or 13 year old.
Oh yeah, or 13 year old me.
So for the Our Voices, I forgotto mention that one of our
students actually wrote a song.
I think, yeah, that, that one'son YouTube too.
The, the song that she wrote.
And so we hired someone to makea beat for the song that she
wrote and then we animated thesong too.
So I think actually 13 year oldme would have wanted to do that
(34:14):
version of Our Voices and writea song, you know, for a
character.
A theme song for a play.
And if I was in Our Voices whenI was 13, that, that would have
been my role.
I wouldn't have been theplaywright, and I wouldn't have
been the actor.
But I would have said, Hey, youguys, I watch Nickelodeon shows,
and they always start with atheme song.
Or I watch Disney shows, andthey always start with a theme
song.
Can I write a theme song forthis?
(34:35):
And so that's why I love thatwe're continuing to expand,
because there's different waysthat people can have a
touchpoint with theater.
And if I was a 13 year old, thatwould have actually been my
touchpoint with theater, writingthe theme song for the play.
And, and then I would havethrough doing that would have
learned more about theater andwould have eventually switched
to where I am now like aplaywright.
But yeah, I would have been soexcited as a 13 year old to
(34:57):
write the theme song for a play.
Rosanita (35:00):
You spend, I assume, a lot of time between the theater
itself, your own projects.
You know, not just your ownproductions, but also like
visiting interlock in
Emilio (35:13):
guest artists.
Yeah,
Rosanita (35:14):
the guest artists, the guest artists to interlock in.
How or when do you find the timeto just relax and take care of
Emilio and only.
Emilio.
Emilio (35:29):
That is the same question my parents ask me every
week when we have our weeklycheck in phone call because my
parents live in California.
So every week they're like, areyou taking time for yourself?
Are you taking care of yourself?
Are you having downtime?
And that's something that I'mthinking more and more about
last month.
I went and had my first massagebecause I've never done that as
just like doing self care stuff.
(35:49):
But also I keep trying toexplain to my family, to my
brother also, So tries to lookout for me too.
I keep trying to explain to myfamily.
Part of what I love abouttheater is I've gotten
opportunities to do things thatI wouldn't have been able to do.
Like traveling can be reallyexpensive, but when you're a
playwright and different theatercompanies are doing your play
(36:12):
and they're.
Paying for you to go out and seethe play and then you get paid
on top of that.
And then I, you know, sort ofplan my vacations around that
like, Oh, this theater companyin Houston is flying me out to
do my play.
And then I'm going to go torehearsals.
That also means since I'm goingto take off time from work to do
that, then I'll have like, Thewhole night in the daytime to go
(36:34):
exploring the city of Houstonand I'll be paid to do it.
So I'll have money to go, youknow, travel around Houston.
So I honestly, that's how I workin my vacations is there
combined with, with work andbeing a playwright that gets
invited to different cities.
And then I'll be like, allright, this is my vacation time.
And this is my fun downtime.
Rosanita (36:53):
I don't know if I'm channeling your parents right
now, but I just want to say,well, that's great.
And I'll take some time.
That isn't, you know, at allinvolved with your craft and
just do something else for theweek.
Right?
Emilio (37:10):
Was
Rosanita (37:12):
that channeling your mom and dad?
Yes, they're trying to
Emilio (37:16):
get me to take an actual vacation, non theater related.
And it's so funny because as wewere planning this vacation.
I was like, and this could be agreat opportunity to do some
research, to write a play, andthey were like, no, no, you're
missing the point, that's notthe point.
So I don't, I don't know whatI'm going to learn, but I'm
going to have to learneventually to know work, know
(37:38):
research.
Just vacation.
Rosanita (37:41):
Yes.
Now when you hear your parentsvoice in your head, my voice is
going to be there to say,Emilio, you know, it's Friday
night, right?
Like, take some time off, go toa movie.
Emilio (37:53):
Yes, yes.
I didn't do that.
I need to find the movie theaterand interlock it here.
There's not as much here.
Rosanita (37:59):
I've really enjoyed talking with you, listening to
everything that you've had tosay.
I've learned a lot, you know,way more than the internet
stalking was able to give.
And so I really want to thankyou for coming on the show.
And I also want to invite you toplug away as in, you know, where
(38:21):
can we find.
You, where can we find black andbrown theater?
What's happening next?
All the good stuff.
Emilio (38:29):
Yes.
Good stuff.
Okay.
So the best place to look upBlack and Brown theater depends
on how you like to surf the web.
If you're a website person, weare blackandbrowntheater.
org.
If you are a social mediaperson, like I am, we are at BNB
theater on Instagram andFacebook.
Just make sure you spell theaterR E and not E R.
And then our YouTube is Blackand Brown theater.
(38:52):
If you just search Black andBrown theater on YouTube.
And our upcoming projects, weare going to be performing our
adaptation of Rapunzel for theentire first grade population of
Detroit public schools in March,which we're really looking
forward to.
That's our, one of our favoriteprograms, the passport program.
So we get to perform for.
(39:12):
4, 000 students.
And then we'll also be doingsome other private school shows
as well during that time sincewe'll already have the actors in
the show going up.
And then also speaking ofRapunzel, one thing that I'm
really excited about is that thefilm version will be coming out
soon, hopefully around that timein the spring.
It's just, we're in postproduction now, just editing
(39:33):
everything.
We actually shot it last summer,but what was really exciting
Really exciting about that is wehad been doing this thing where
we were filming the shows in thetheater and just, you know,
doing different camera angles toreally give that TV multicam
sitcom type vibe to it.
But we actually had a little bitof trouble finding a set
designer.
All the set designers werebooked last summer.
(39:55):
And so we said, all right, weWe, we take challenges and we
make them work for us.
And we said, all right, if wecan't find the set designer who
will build us a set in thetheater, we're going to go find
a castle in Michigan.
We're going to go find a forestin Michigan and we're going to
shoot it like a movie and it'sgoing to look like a beautiful
movie background for all ofthese.
(40:16):
So we found a castle in Michiganactually in like Lansing area in
Rosanita (40:20):
Michigan.
Emilio (40:21):
Yes, it's a museum dedicated to a Michigan author
who is the first author to sella million books.
And so he has a tiny littlecastle.
It's very like Disney aestheticto it, but it was, it was
beautiful.
It was perfect.
I just heard search castles inMichigan on Google.
And we found that and we'relike, great.
How much did we read this?
And then it was cheaper than aset builder.
(40:42):
I was like, this is cheaper thana set builder.
Let's just do this.
Let's do movies.
And then we did a forest for onelocation.
And then we use scarab club forthe tower of Rapunzel.
I actually think it was the bestthing that can happen to us
because it looks so much morevisually stunning on the screen
to actually be in a forest.
So to actually have a castlebehind you, as opposed to having
a set designer, you know, painta forest in the background.
(41:05):
So I'm really, really excitedabout that film, which should be
out hopefully this spring andwe'll put it on YouTube so
people can watch it directlyfrom YouTube.
And then our next officialplanning show won't be until
winter, but I always say followus on social media because we
like to drop some surprisesalong the way and sometimes
(41:27):
funding comes along the way andwe don't have official show plan
but someone says, Hey, we'llgive you this money if you do a
show and then we got to find theactors really quickly.
So, if you're an actor,definitely follow us at BNB
theater because things come upall the time and we always do
different gigs and shortprojects as well.
Rosanita (41:48):
And for you, Emilio, separate from the Black and
Brown theater right now, you arethe guest artist at Interlochen
and then what's after that?
Emilio (41:58):
Yeah, so right now, like you mentioned, focused on the
guest artist thing.
That'll be until March.
And then during this time, Ihave a little bit of downtime
too, but I'm actually using thatbecause I got a grant through
the University of Michigan,where I teach an intro to
playwriting class in the fall towrite a book called Everyone Can
Write a Play.
Okay.
And it's just sort of aculmination of everything I've
been teaching for all ageranges.
(42:20):
What I've been teachingelementary students, what I've
been teaching the collegestudents at U of M, what I've
been teaching the seniorsthrough the Ipsy program.
And really this idea that I'vebeen teaching everyone how to
write a play, no matter theirage, no matter their reading
level.
Why don't I just make a book ofthis?
And so I'm really excited forthat book to come out because
like I mentioned, baby Emilioloved reading because of his
(42:40):
mom.
And so I would think it wasjust.
So cool to see a book with myname on it.
So that's the project I'll befocused on.
And then in the fall, I'll goback to teaching intro
playwriting at U of M.
And then from there, everythingis, is up in the air of what
happens.
I've got a couple of plays thatare being talked about and I, I
(43:02):
just got the wild award for oneof the plays that I wrote called
God Kind of Looks Like Tupac.
And there are a couple othercompanies looking at that play.
So we'll see if those land.
If they do land, you'll knowfrom my Instagram page,
@emiliowritesplays, where to seethose productions if they do
work out in 2023 or 2024.
Rosanita (43:22):
Again, thank you for coming on to the show.
Welcome back to behind the curtain.
(00:02):
Today, we're thrilled to bringyou part two of our conversation
with Emilio Rodriguez.
The founder of black and browntheater.
In this episode, Emilio takes usdeeper into the behind the
scenes world of theater fundingthe real costs of putting on a
show, and the unique challengesBIPOC theaters face.
We'll also hear about somecreative community projects and
(00:25):
how Emilio and his team aremaking theater accessible to
everyone.
If you enjoyed part one, you'regoing to love what's coming up.
Emilio.
You previously.
Touched a little bit on funding,right?
Since you mentioned the library,the Ann Arbor community
foundation, how exactly is theblack and brown theater funded?
(00:49):
Is it donations?
Is it ticket sales?
Is it?
Foundation money, a mixture.
Emilio (00:56):
Yes, it is a mixture of, of sources.
A lot of it is communityfoundation or different
foundation fundings anddifferent grants.
And then some of it is alsoother projects that we do.
We also do like character pop upprojects, which are, you know,
Are great because they're nottied to any grant and they don't
require any report and we justget to go have fun and show up
(01:17):
in character at differentparties and events.
And and then the last 1 isdonations.
So individual donations fromindividual givers and.
So yeah, we typically actuallydon't do a lot of ticket sales.
The number of shows that havebeen ticketed have been very
limited.
We try and make as many of ourshows as possible free and open
(01:38):
to the public.
But that means sometimes peopledon't understand just because
the show is free, it doesn'tmean no one got paid.
There was still money that wehad to get from either community
foundation or, or through adifferent grant source, or
sometimes an individual donor,or sometimes like the Michigan
theater, they paid.
For all of the actors and forthat show to be possible.
(01:59):
And, and they had donationsthemselves that heavily
subsidized the ticket price forthose performances.
So yeah, ticket prices, evenwhen shows are ticketed ticket
prices do not cover the costs.
Theater is incredibly expensiveto make, but that's why it's,
it's so great to have a varietyof grants and, and foundations
(02:20):
in the area that can helpsubsidize.
the costs of how incrediblyexpensive theater is.
Rosanita (02:28):
How expensive is theater?
Emilio (02:30):
Oh my gosh, theater depends on, on, because a lot of
the pricing can be based on,especially with non union.
It can just be based on thecompany, what the company
decides.
So companies here can justdecide this is how much we're
going to pay an actor.
The thing that sometimes peopledon't realize is.
That has to be multiplied.
So I remember one time I told,just to give you an example
(02:51):
number, one of the film projectswe did had a 25, 000 budget.
And one of the actors was like25, 000.
Well, that's a lot of money.
I didn't know you were spendingall this money on it.
And.
I was like, all right, let methink about it this way.
You're getting paid 1000, buteveryone else that they've had
in this project is also gettingpaid that amount too, because we
(03:14):
are fair and equitableorganization.
So times that by the number ofpeople who are in this room
right now, And then there arepeople who are not in this room
right now that have to get paidand then turn around behind you.
There is a giant set behind youthat was built up and look down
on yourself.
You're not wearing your ownclothes.
You're wearing a costume thatsomeone either had to make or
(03:35):
buy and look up.
Yes, those are lights, whichmeans someone had to program our
lights.
Turn to your left.
There is a camera right there.
This project is being filmed.
That's why we're getting thefunding.
But that person who's filmingright now, that person has to be
paid and they have to get paidto edit it as well too, because
it's not going to be fully, youknow, in, in the condition that
needs to be, they have to editit and make it what we want it
(03:56):
to look like for the finalproject.
And then there's somebody you'renot even seeing right now.
Who's making the music that isgoing to go in between all the
songs and the opening credit,the closing credit.
So there's so, there's just somany people involved and for
each person to make, to make itworth their time, each person
has to get some amount of money.
So the long answer is that,
Rosanita (04:14):
oh
Emilio (04:16):
yeah.
And the venue as well too,because we ran out a lot of
venues because we don't, wedon't have a permanent venue.
So even things like that, and isthere someone from the venue has
to be in the venue?
But yeah, the insurance.
Yes, so many, so many costs.
And the, and the truth is thateveryone can sort of set their
own prices, right?
Everyone, if it's a non unionorganization, they can decide
how much they're going to payeach actor and each artist and
(04:40):
each designer.
But even if they pay them asmall amount, just by the sheer
number of people that areinvolved in a project makes
theater so much more expensivethan people think.
We actually had one person askedme, they were like, can you do,
so how much does the show cost?
Like, you know, like a hundredbucks.
And I was like, I wish a showcost a hundred bucks because it
would be so nice if that's allit took.
(05:01):
We'd be able to do so much more,but, but because there's so many
artists that we want their timeto be respected as well, too,
because if you have 10 peopleworking on a project and a
hundred bucks divided by 10people, everyone would be
getting 10 bucks, which would bea lot to, to ask of people of
their time.
Rosanita (05:20):
You, you mentioned non union a couple of times.
Emilio (05:23):
Yes.
Rosanita (05:25):
Now.
Know that there's like it was anactor's equity and then you have
like the writer's guild and thenyou have of course the union for
people who who do lighting andother.
Crew member jobs, but is it evenpossible for a smaller theater
to be able to pay the, the unionwages or how can you get your
(05:46):
cast and your crew into theunion?
Is there a certain amount ofunion plays or performances they
have to do each year the sameway they do for the screen
actors guild or is it different?
Emilio (06:01):
The rules have actually changed.
So it used to be to join actors,equity association, you had to
go through a program called EMC,which is equity membership
candidate.
And you would basically what youwere saying, you would work at
several equity theaters, a, atheaters, and that's how you
would get points.
And you would get one point.
per week.
(06:21):
So if you rehearse for fourweeks and then you did four
weeks of shows you would geteight points and you needed 50
points was the old process tobecome eligible to apply for
equity to be a union actor.
Rosanita (06:36):
Equitable when I think of the lack of funding that
BIPOC theaters or even a ruraltheater.
Sorry to interject.
Emilio (06:46):
No, no, that's a great point.
And that's why actually becauseof COVID, so many actors had
dropped out of actors equitybecause you had to pay an annual
fee to be a part of equity.
And so many people said, well,if all the theaters are closed,
Why am I paying a fee?
We don't know how long this isgoing on.
So they changed their rules.
(07:07):
And now you don't have to havethe 50 points.
You just have to demonstratethat you have made a significant
contribution acting and havesignificant experience, which in
some ways, I feel like that'sharder because that's even more
opinion.
But like, how do you prove it
Rosanita (07:21):
significant?
Emilio (07:22):
Yeah, what is significant, at least before the
system, like the rules are clearand fair, even though they were
really hard, it was the same foreveryone, which was kind of
nice.
But this now is just kind oflike, try and apply and you'll
see if you get a yes or no.
So I don't know if they're goingto change those rules and go
back to their old model, ormaybe create a new model that's
(07:42):
still the same rules foreveryone, but maybe a little bit
easier, or maybe it can changeby region.
Because, as you mentioned,certain regions might not have
the same opportunities to do.
If you're in New York, you mighthave the opportunity to work
with an equity company everyweek.
If you're in Michigan, wherethere's only, you know, 4 or 5
equity companies and there'sonly so many amount of shows
(08:03):
every year then you don't havethe same opportunity to easily
accumulate 50 points or 50 weeksof experience.
Rosanita (08:11):
And if someone isn't at actor's equity, then there's
a base rate of pay, right?
And then is it the same too,where you also you're paying a
due, but then you would get likehealth insurance.
Emilio (08:24):
Sometimes we can do what's called a guest artist,
even though we're a non unioncompany, non union companies can
apply to have a guest artist.
I think it's limited to one ortwo per show.
So we did have one for, for oneof our performances.
And you have to.
Pay so you have to pay theirsalary based on the equity fees.
(08:44):
You have to pay their taxes andyou have to pay their health
insurance and then you have topay it to you.
Can't pay it yourself.
You have to pay a licensedagency that they approve and
then you pay the fee to theagency too because they have to
get paid for doing all thiswork.
So they get paid.
You know, an additional 20percent or whatnot on top of all
that.
(09:05):
And then all of those fees arepaid to the agency.
And then the agency pays theactor directly.
So that's one of the reasons whyit's so hard to book a guest
artist and why so many people inMichigan are sometimes afraid to
go join the union is becauseit's not that it, that you can't
work for a non union company isthat it's a lot of work for the
(09:25):
non union company to get youapproved and they have to have
in their budget.
enough funding to cover the costof a union actor because a non
union company can just saytheoretically to an actor, we'll
give you 250 bucks to, you know,do four weeks of rehearsal, four
weeks of shows.
And I have been on that actingend here.
And, and at that time I was justhappy to work.
(09:48):
Obviously it wasn't doing it forthe money.
I was working as a teacher andhad that.
Salary and income separate.
So I wasn't doing it for themoney, but I was doing it for
the love of, of theater, butthen a union protection says, Oh
no, in the state of Michigan,the minimum is like, let's say,
you know, depending on a smallaudience, the minimum is like
350 a week is what they have tomake for rehearsals and for the
(10:09):
show.
And so that's what they wouldhave to be paid per week.
Plus you would pay the taxes onthat.
And then you would pay thehealth insurance rate on that.
And then you'd pay the 20percent agent fee on top of
that.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that would, it wouldbe a big number that you would
have to have.
So you'd either have to go onticket sales and guarantee that
you're going to sell that manytickets or have the funding in
(10:31):
place in advance.
In our case, we were doing afree show.
So we had the funding in placethat we knew were going to be
able to afford it, but wewouldn't have been able to
afford it for all four actorsand we wouldn't have gotten
approved for all four actors,but we were approved for, for
one actor.
And we had the funding to dothat.
Rosanita (10:47):
And that's just on the actor part, right?
So then there's somethingseparate for the screenplay
writers and then there's aseparate union.
Like, if you're a costumedesigner versus lighting versus
set design.
Right?
Emilio (11:02):
Yes, I believe it's is the.
So everyone in design andproduction, they're in crew,
they're all in IATSE, and thenstage managers are actually a
part of actors equity.
So actors and stage managers aretogether in the same union,
directors and choreographershave their own union.
And then playwrights, wetypically use the dramatist
guild.
So it's not actually a union,but it is a guild that does Sort
(11:25):
of give you some protections andthey like, so I'm part of the
dramatist guild and there arecertain things like they will
help you negotiate a contract orthey'll send you a contract
template so that you can makesure that you're getting paid by
the standards of what otherprofessional playwrights are
getting paid or otherplaywrights who are on the Your
experience level are gettingpaid for this amount of work
(11:48):
that they're doing.
And so there's certain thingsthey'll negotiate, like
typically a standard will be,let's say, depending on the size
of the company, it can be like asmall organization can be a
minimum of like 500 to do yourscript plus 8 percent of the
ticket sales.
And then a larger organizationmight be like 4, 000 to do your
script plus 8 percent or 10percent of the ticket sales.
(12:12):
And then the, the union contractwill, they'll give you templates
that say like, these are thedates they have to pay you by.
And then some, Another reallyimportant thing for playwrights
is they cannot change a singleword of your text.
They can cross out stagedirections, but if you write
down that the actor says, I'mgoing to be late for work today.
They cannot say, Oh, I don'tlike that.
(12:33):
Just say, I'm going to be lateor running late.
They can't change that.
They have to say exactly.
I'm going to be late for worktoday.
Every single word, or the, theorganization, you can pull the
play.
If they're not doing that, ifthey're changing words, which I
did have 1 organization,
Rosanita (12:51):
you still get paid if they, if they change the words
and then you pull your script,you still get the full.
The contracted amount.
Emilio (12:59):
It depends on what your contract says.
And that's why you really wantto go through the dramatist
guild, because they will giveyou a template contract that'll
have an answer, yes or no answerto that, and sometimes it'll be
that you get the first half ofthe money.
So like let's say it's for acontract for 4, 000, the first
2000, then maybe you'll getthat, but you won't get the
second 2000, because that mighthave been depending on ticket
(13:21):
sales or season.
Underwriters who were countingon that script to be produced.
So that's why those things hadto be looked at in the contract
first.
And for me, when it happened tome, I decided not to pull
because I didn't know untilopening night and the actors
were so excited for the project.
But yeah, it definitely taughtme to be very clear in that
writing and to now I have acheck in date when I'm doing
(13:44):
projects outside of black andbrown theater with myself as
Emilio Rodriguez.
I'm able to check in before techweek to make sure that all of
the words are said as written.
Rosanita (13:53):
I'm thinking about how much a production costs if it's
a union production, right?
Because we are the state ofMichigan, you know, we were the
union state car industry, youknow, my parents, my mom, a
school, social worker.
My dad was a union negotiatorfor the district on behalf of
the teachers.
(14:13):
And so.
It is a topic that I find veryinteresting and close to my
heart, especially since back inthe day, unions were how people
were able to become middleclass.
Right?
And.
Even when we have the greatmigration from down south to,
(14:37):
you know, the Midwest, it wasbecause of union jobs.
And when I look at, you know,certain industries like theater,
and I think when you weretalking the rate of pay, be
like, we're missing.
It feels like we're still missout in in that particular
industry.
On being able to join the union,because of the stipulations of
(15:00):
how you can even join, but thenalso where the jobs that we're
able to get the roles that we'reable to get along with if you're
working a theater and if you'rein a rural area, because we do
live in rural areas as well.
It's that it feels like we'restill kind of left out of that
(15:23):
particular opportunity there.
And I'm also talking about thetheaters, because I don't know,
I just, I, I had assumption thata theater is like, I don't want
union workers, you know, I, Ifeel like theater is such a
close knit community that youwould want the best for, for
each other.
And I mean, if you can afford aunion production, that.
(15:45):
It is doing quite wellfinancially, right?
And so, since you started yourtheater company, has there been
a more positive change in thefunding for the theater for by
park theaters in in that fundinglandscape?
Well, when it comes from grantmoney, when it comes from, not
(16:06):
just from foundations, but alsofrom right?
Because the states have thedifferent councils.
You have the National Endowmentfor the arts.
And I remember reading anarticle where a representative
from the Michigan Arts Councilsaid, well, we just need more
people, you know, I'mparaphrasing, but we just need
(16:27):
more people to apply as grantreaders.
But then I also think.
How many of us even know how toapply to be a grant reader or
where to go to become a grantreader?
And it's just doesn't seem assimple as as that.
I don't exactly know whatquestion I'm asking, but
Emilio (16:49):
no.
There's a lot of great thingsthat you brought up.
First, let me touch on the grantreader because that's such an
interesting thing that you, youbrought up.
And it's something that I haveeventually become a, I was a
grant reader for MCACA for, forone round of things.
The only reason I was able to doit was I was working at a
different nonprofit for my fulltime day job.
(17:12):
They allowed me to have the dayoff.
To go do this because you haveto be in in that time.
It was like 2018.
We had to be in person for awhole work day and we had to
drive up to Lansing to do.
Yeah,
Rosanita (17:27):
it for the 21st century learning center funds.
Yes, I think that might havebeen 2015 2014 2015 somewhere
around there.
Yeah, we had two days in Lansingthat that we had to do.
And it is, and I only found outabout it because I was
subscribed to some obscure emaillist.
Emilio (17:49):
Yes.
Yeah.
And I found out about it throughthe nonprofit I was working for
and no one wanted to do it.
So they said, Abelio, do youwant to take a day off and go
and do this?
So it wasn't even something thatI was asked to do.
The nonprofit I worked for, theywere asked to send someone over.
So yeah, there is definitely.
(18:09):
Especially for grant readers,it's like based off of who they
know.
And then if you even know thegrants that you can go and ask
people, then you have to decidefor yourself, can I go to
Lansing or can I go to whereverthey're going to make this
decision?
Can I take a full day off ofwork for whatever they're
paying?
Because sometimes it's like, youknow, they'll give you a hundred
bucks or 75 bucks or whatever.
And that might not be enough incomparison to what you're making
(18:31):
in order to take a day off ofwork.
And Yeah.
And then sometimes you have avery limited amount of time to
read a whole bunch of material.
You usually have to come withthat prepared, and the day that
you're coming in is just to talkabout it.
It's not to read that.
So you're, sometimes they're,they're like, oh, well we're
paying you a hundred bucks tofor a day.
It's like, well, it's notactually a day, because I, to
(18:52):
spend two days reading all ofthese submissions and going
through all my notes that Icould come prepared to the
meeting.
So that's another thing is theequity.
Is it fair for people?
To even be a part of this, or isit designed for people who live
in that community, which what isthe racial makeup of that
community and for people who aremaybe retired or are not
(19:14):
engaging with what's new andbeing created right now?
They're just used to whatthey're used to in their
community.
And so you really have to havean excellent pitch on your grant
because they're not going toknow about you versus other
people.
Another organization in theirarea might have not as strong of
a pitch, but they were able tosee that show because they live
(19:35):
in that community or they havefriends that they're connected
with.
And they're saying, that'sactually what happened to me on
the, on the panel.
I was in someone was able todefend one of the organizations.
And I said, are we going basedoff of the grant?
Are we going based off of whatyou all know about the
organization?
Because that's 2 differentthings.
And that's where bias comes intoplay because that person liked
(19:56):
that organization and they werebringing up things that weren't
in the actual grant.
Another thing you touched on wasunion and non union.
And so yeah, one of the thingswith non union in an ideal
world, we'd be able to hire asmany union artists as possible,
but I think it's one to two isthe limit.
I could be wrong on that.
Someone Google it and correct meif I am wrong, but I believe it
was one to two is when, when wewere doing it, maybe it's just
(20:18):
based on the size of thecompany.
So that's all we were allowed tohave.
Rosanita (20:21):
Is that because you weren't?
One of the designated theaters.
Like, if you were one of thetheaters that was designated by
actors equity, then would you beable to have as many as you
wanted?
Emilio (20:35):
Correct?
Yes.
So, yeah, it's just the nonunion theaters that have a limit
of how many guests artists theycan have.
And then that's another thing tothink about too with funding and
who's able to even afford unionactors is a lot of times.
It is based not only just on thefunding source, but also on
individual donors, because ifyou know the right individual
donors, they can give you morethan a foundation can give you.
(20:58):
A foundation usually caps aroundtheir biggest grants are around
like, typically for theater, itcan be like 100, 000 is like a
big grant for a foundation.
And you can have a individualdonor easily drop 100, 000
without thinking about it.
If you know the right people.
Versus other companies, smallercompanies don't know anyone who
has 100, 000 to drop like it'sTuesday, right?
(21:20):
But those bigger companies knowthose people and so a lot of
times the bigger companies areable to survive because they
know the people who have thatmoney and they're able to bring
in people who have that moneyand will throw that money and
can write that check.
Without even thinking about itversus a lot, a lot of smaller
organizations are asking theirfriends and family and people
(21:41):
around them.
Can you give 50 bucks on myFacebook, you know, birthday
fundraiser and anotherorganizations like Facebook
birthday funder.
I'm just going to call it myfriend, Tom, and he's going to
write a check for 200, 000.
And then I'll get all the actorsI need.
So that, that inequity is, issomething that's hard to think
about too, because then it's Whoknows these people?
(22:01):
How do they know these people?
Why do they know these people?
All of those things come intoplay.
Rosanita (22:07):
Have you seen a change though since you first started
with BIPOC theaters being ableto access more funding either
through, you know, a friendnamed Tom or a patron who's on
plan was like, wow, that'sfantastic.
Here's 250, 000 or even like,you know, COVID relief funds,
which.
(22:29):
Was not plentiful enough in mymind for the arts, and I know it
came a lot later to overall.
Have you noticed a change in the7 years?
Emilio (22:40):
Yes, I would say definitely.
I think there are some greatorganizations like
CultureSource.
I think it's doing a reallygreat job of specifically making
that a requirement and they'relooking at things like, what
does your board look like ifyour board does not reflect your
community?
That's something we don't wantto consider.
And they're thinking not onlyabout race, but also about
disabilities and LGBTQ.
(23:01):
They're looking at all thosethings when they're thinking
about who is on your board andthat plays into their funding
decisions.
The thing about that, that was aculture source is a regranting
organization.
So they have a cap on whatthey're able to give versus some
other foundations that havelarger funding that they're able
to give are still sort of makingthat change and one thing that I
(23:24):
love too, again, about culturesources, they're not thinking
about how much an organization.
Is able to make, versus somelarger foundations are saying
they are making cutoffs bysaying the organization has to
have a million dollar permillion dollar operating budget.
And some of us are thinking,well, we had a million dollar
operating budget.
I don't know if we need yourhelp, but if we have, we had a
(23:45):
way to get a million dollars, I,we wouldn't need to apply for
this grant.
So that's some of the challengestoo that I'm, I'm still seeing,
but I'm loving that there aresome smaller organizations who
are saying.
Wait, people don't need to havea million dollars.
If they're applying for a 10,000 grant, that doesn't line up.
That doesn't make sense.
And also another thing culturesource did that I really loved
is they're thinking about howmuch time you're asking people
(24:07):
to put in a grant.
Because sometimes someorganizations will want, you
know, five, six, seven pages fora grant and all of this research
and audit and all of thesethings, and then culture source
is like, why don't we just givethem a Google form?
And just tell us about yourorganization, throw on some
video clips.
And I think that's so much moreequitable and reasonable to ask
(24:29):
an organization to do,especially they're applying for
5, 000 to ask for 10 pages ofwork for 5, 000.
We had to look at who has thecapacity to have someone on
their staff, write 10 pages.
And the honest answer of someonewho has the capacity to have
someone on their staff, write 10pages for a 5, 000 grant.
It's going to be a milliondollar organization because that
(24:50):
means they have a full timegrant person, or they might even
have a grant intern for theirgrant writing person who can,
Oh, we'll give this to the grantintern.
They'll give them the 5, 000grant.
But then you have organizationsthat don't have that capacity
and don't have that many peopleon their team.
And they have to make adecision.
Can I really spend the next twodays writing this?
(25:12):
10 page grant that I might notget, and it's only 5, 000.
And so a lot of times, yes, youdon't see as many smaller
organizations or BIPOCorganizations applying because
they have to make that toughchoice.
Is it really worth our time togamble to make 5, 000 to write
these 10 pages?
Or is it a better time for us tojust.
(25:34):
Try and go to some networkingevents and see if we can meet
five individual donors who willgive us a thousand dollars each.
And that'll be the same resultwith less work.
Rosanita (25:44):
Yeah, the latter sounds more doable as a BIPOC
organization, because I'm like.
You know, like, 10 pages, I'mthinking how long it took me to,
like, write a 10 page paper incollege.
Right.
And just for 1 grant, becauseyou can't do a cookie cutter
(26:05):
grant application either,because funders know each other.
Grant readers know each other.
Exactly.
Or you could have had a grantreader from 1 organization.
A grant reader for the nextorganization.
And they're like, I know thisone getting off of the heavier
subject there.
You're at interlocking rightnow.
Is that for something special?
Emilio (26:27):
Yes.
I'm a guest artist.
So I am working with the highschool students and we are doing
an adaptation of the frogPrince, but set in a Caribbean,
a fictional Caribbean Island.
And so it has been so wonderfulto get to work with the students
because Everything else intheir, their season right now is
things that they're used to andthings that they have
experienced and, and things thatare, are typically at a, a
(26:50):
theater training institution,but because our story is set in
a fictional Caribbean island, weare learning about things like
social dance, which somestudents have not got to do in
their whole four years in thisprogram, but maybe they grew up
with that, you know, especiallyBIPOC students, right?
They're like, yeah.
Social dance.
Yeah, I know what that is.
So they, they're able to expressthat talent that they maybe
(27:13):
didn't even realize was a talentbecause you don't get to use
social dance all the time.
If you're doing a Shakespeareshow or, you know, a Greek
tragedy, but if you're doing ashow set on a fictional
Caribbean island, bring out thatsocial dance, that is essential.
skill that you have that makesthe, it's fun for the audience
to watch.
It makes people feel connected.
And you know, especially in alot of black and Latino
(27:34):
communities, social dances iswhat we do every Saturday.
We go to somebody's party andthere's social dance being
played.
And so audience members canconnect with that.
And then people who don't knowthat world, maybe, you know,
more European audiences orpeople who just didn't grow up
with that, They get to learnabout something like, Oh,
that's, that seems really cool.
That's really fun.
(27:54):
Oh, I didn't think about socialdance as being such an an
important element to, tobuilding community and to
telling a story and social danceis the only element, there's
still like a full plot andeverything, but there's some
social dance elements that havebeen.
Really fun to play with and forand for students to think about.
I don't think they've everthought about that as a warm up
(28:15):
because it's a part of our warmup.
And that's something that I'vebeen thinking about with our own
company.
And when I go to other companiesas well, I like to challenge
what has been the norm for atheater warm up.
There are some standard stuffthat people do standard tongue
twisters, other standard, youknow, body rolls and things that
everyone does.
And something that we've beenplaying with and that I've been
(28:36):
using with these students too iswho gets to decide what is a
useful and beneficial warm upand what are their measurements
for deciding that.
Because if your parameter isthat a physical warm up needs to
engage every part of your Well,guess what?
Salsa dancing is engaging everypart of your core has to be
straight.
Your back has to be straight,fully engage your shoulders, but
(28:58):
don't move them too much.
And your hands have to be ableto move lightly and your feet
have to, you know, move side toside and front to back and your
face can't be dead.
Nobody dances salsa dance with adead ghost face, right?
You have to, you know, fullylive it.
And there's also some voicebeing thrown in too, because
you're, you're saying things,you're chanting things when
you're so, you know, so it's afull warmup that you're doing
(29:19):
that is.
It's really great for actors andengages every part of their
body.
It's checking in with every partof their body.
It's using their voice.
It's using their face and you'replaying off of other people
because you don't typicallysalsa dance by yourself.
You're dancing with other peopleand then you have to adjust with
your partner.
Someone leads, someone follows,and when you're salsa dancing,
(29:40):
you're not saying, okay, and I'mgoing to lead and you're going
to, it's something you naturallyorganically find between the two
people.
It's natural and you just haveto.
Listen without saying anything.
And so salsa dancing is one ofthe warmups we do here in
Interlochen, which has beenreally fun.
Even I've only been here threeweeks, but even in the three
weeks, the students have grownfrom day one.
(30:00):
Wallflowers being like, I'm amusical theater kid.
I don't know how to do thisrhythm.
So now they're like, okay, I'mstarting to get it.
Oh, okay.
You can't, you can't think aboutit the same way that you do a
musical theater dance of five,six, seven, eight.
You gotta just feel it out alittle bit more.
And so that has been probably myfavorite part of being here is
(30:21):
being able to introduce thestudents to something because.
There's a Tyra Banks quote Ilove that's different is better
than better.
And sometimes when I, you know,my first thought was I'm going
to this prestigious art school.
They've had these people withMFAs and PhDs and theater and
trading them.
And what am I going to have tooffer them that they haven't
(30:42):
already been offered before?
And that's, Something that Ilove for artists to take away,
particularly BIPOC artists, isthat we have something innately
special.
Even if you have a PhD inShakespearean theater, you can't
offer what I can offer.
And that's what I've been lovingabout this experience because
they haven't been able to dosocial dance.
And there's things that I've hadto teach them about even
(31:03):
relaxing into a character andthe characters that you play for
Shakespeare, aren't the samecharacters that I want on this
Caribbean island.
And it's been great for me toreaffirm that.
I have a skill, but it's alsosomething that I hope that I'm
able to share with other Bipocartists is don't compare
yourself to someone else.
Tap into what's special aboutyou, because you can always
teach people something whenyou're leaning into what's
(31:24):
special about yourself, and notcomparing yourself, but tapping
into your organic strengths, andthen people can learn from that.
Rosanita (31:33):
Looking back from where you are now and everything
that you've.
Accomplished now, right in thearts and in the lives of not
just the kids that you work withand the seniors that you've
worked with, but the audiencemembers as well.
I'd say even the grant readers,because they haven't necessarily
encountered the kind ofprogramming that you do.
(31:54):
How do you think 8 year oldEmilio would feel about where he
ended up?
Emilio (32:01):
Oh my gosh, I love that question so much.
And yes, like you said, even thegrant readers didn't know about
it.
We actually started a.
Relationship with the scarabclub because their executive
director at the time was one ofthe grant readers for a grant we
had applied for.
And they were like, I lovedreading about you guys.
Can you come and do something atscarab club?
So that sort of stuff happensall the time.
(32:21):
I think eight year old mecouldn't even, it's not
something that I would have eventhought about because I didn't
even know that was somethingthat existed.
I didn't even know theaterexisted until college when I
studied theater in college.
So.
8 year old me would be like,first of all, what is theater?
And second of all, how cool thatyou are doing this thing.
(32:42):
And obviously I think 8 year oldme would be a little bit more
excited about like the fairytale stuff and that element
because that's what I was intoas an 8 year old.
Also, I think it would be soincredible to see the leadership
position, to see thecollaboration between artists,
and then to see all of thedifferent things that I grew up
(33:05):
loving coming together.
So, like, us, Leaning intobooks.
Now we have a picture booksversions of our, our plays that
we have available now, andthey're like a bridge scripts of
the actual scripts we use, butjust shortened and then have the
pictures to correspond and thengetting able to do music as
well, which is something reallyexciting because music was, you
know.
Gonna be my major.
(33:26):
That's what an eight year old meand 13 year old me would have
wanted to be a songwriter.
So getting to write songs forthe organization that emphasize
the stories that we're workingon.
I think all, all of that wouldhave been incredible, but I, I
do think the song element andthe fairytale element would be
most exciting for baby Emilio tolook back at now.
Rosanita (33:45):
Looking back, is what you've created something that
younger you would have beenlike, Mom, sign me up today.
Emilio (33:54):
Ah, yes.
Or 13 year old.
Oh yeah, or 13 year old me.
So for the Our Voices, I forgotto mention that one of our
students actually wrote a song.
I think, yeah, that, that one'son YouTube too.
The, the song that she wrote.
And so we hired someone to makea beat for the song that she
wrote and then we animated thesong too.
So I think actually 13 year oldme would have wanted to do that
(34:14):
version of Our Voices and writea song, you know, for a
character.
A theme song for a play.
And if I was in Our Voices whenI was 13, that, that would have
been my role.
I wouldn't have been theplaywright, and I wouldn't have
been the actor.
But I would have said, Hey, youguys, I watch Nickelodeon shows,
and they always start with atheme song.
Or I watch Disney shows, andthey always start with a theme
song.
Can I write a theme song forthis?
(34:35):
And so that's why I love thatwe're continuing to expand,
because there's different waysthat people can have a
touchpoint with theater.
And if I was a 13 year old, thatwould have actually been my
touchpoint with theater, writingthe theme song for the play.
And, and then I would havethrough doing that would have
learned more about theater andwould have eventually switched
to where I am now like aplaywright.
But yeah, I would have been soexcited as a 13 year old to
(34:57):
write the theme song for a play.
Rosanita (35:00):
You spend, I assume, a lot of time between the theater
itself, your own projects.
You know, not just your ownproductions, but also like
visiting interlock in
Emilio (35:13):
guest artists.
Yeah,
Rosanita (35:14):
the guest artists, the guest artists to interlock in.
How or when do you find the timeto just relax and take care of
Emilio and only.
Emilio.
Emilio (35:29):
That is the same question my parents ask me every
week when we have our weeklycheck in phone call because my
parents live in California.
So every week they're like, areyou taking time for yourself?
Are you taking care of yourself?
Are you having downtime?
And that's something that I'mthinking more and more about
last month.
I went and had my first massagebecause I've never done that as
just like doing self care stuff.
(35:49):
But also I keep trying toexplain to my family, to my
brother also, So tries to lookout for me too.
I keep trying to explain to myfamily.
Part of what I love abouttheater is I've gotten
opportunities to do things thatI wouldn't have been able to do.
Like traveling can be reallyexpensive, but when you're a
playwright and different theatercompanies are doing your play
(36:12):
and they're.
Paying for you to go out and seethe play and then you get paid
on top of that.
And then I, you know, sort ofplan my vacations around that
like, Oh, this theater companyin Houston is flying me out to
do my play.
And then I'm going to go torehearsals.
That also means since I'm goingto take off time from work to do
that, then I'll have like, Thewhole night in the daytime to go
(36:34):
exploring the city of Houstonand I'll be paid to do it.
So I'll have money to go, youknow, travel around Houston.
So I honestly, that's how I workin my vacations is there
combined with, with work andbeing a playwright that gets
invited to different cities.
And then I'll be like, allright, this is my vacation time.
And this is my fun downtime.
Rosanita (36:53):
I don't know if I'm channeling your parents right
now, but I just want to say,well, that's great.
And I'll take some time.
That isn't, you know, at allinvolved with your craft and
just do something else for theweek.
Right?
Emilio (37:10):
Was
Rosanita (37:12):
that channeling your mom and dad?
Yes, they're trying to
Emilio (37:16):
get me to take an actual vacation, non theater related.
And it's so funny because as wewere planning this vacation.
I was like, and this could be agreat opportunity to do some
research, to write a play, andthey were like, no, no, you're
missing the point, that's notthe point.
So I don't, I don't know whatI'm going to learn, but I'm
going to have to learneventually to know work, know
(37:38):
research.
Just vacation.
Rosanita (37:41):
Yes.
Now when you hear your parentsvoice in your head, my voice is
going to be there to say,Emilio, you know, it's Friday
night, right?
Like, take some time off, go toa movie.
Emilio (37:53):
Yes, yes.
I didn't do that.
I need to find the movie theaterand interlock it here.
There's not as much here.
Rosanita (37:59):
I've really enjoyed talking with you, listening to
everything that you've had tosay.
I've learned a lot, you know,way more than the internet
stalking was able to give.
And so I really want to thankyou for coming on the show.
And I also want to invite you toplug away as in, you know, where
(38:21):
can we find.
You, where can we find black andbrown theater?
What's happening next?
All the good stuff.
Emilio (38:29):
Yes.
Good stuff.
Okay.
So the best place to look upBlack and Brown theater depends
on how you like to surf the web.
If you're a website person, weare blackandbrowntheater.
org.
If you are a social mediaperson, like I am, we are at BNB
theater on Instagram andFacebook.
Just make sure you spell theaterR E and not E R.
And then our YouTube is Blackand Brown theater.
(38:52):
If you just search Black andBrown theater on YouTube.
And our upcoming projects, weare going to be performing our
adaptation of Rapunzel for theentire first grade population of
Detroit public schools in March,which we're really looking
forward to.
That's our, one of our favoriteprograms, the passport program.
So we get to perform for.
(39:12):
4, 000 students.
And then we'll also be doingsome other private school shows
as well during that time sincewe'll already have the actors in
the show going up.
And then also speaking ofRapunzel, one thing that I'm
really excited about is that thefilm version will be coming out
soon, hopefully around that timein the spring.
It's just, we're in postproduction now, just editing
(39:33):
everything.
We actually shot it last summer,but what was really exciting
Really exciting about that is wehad been doing this thing where
we were filming the shows in thetheater and just, you know,
doing different camera angles toreally give that TV multicam
sitcom type vibe to it.
But we actually had a little bitof trouble finding a set
designer.
All the set designers werebooked last summer.
(39:55):
And so we said, all right, weWe, we take challenges and we
make them work for us.
And we said, all right, if wecan't find the set designer who
will build us a set in thetheater, we're going to go find
a castle in Michigan.
We're going to go find a forestin Michigan and we're going to
shoot it like a movie and it'sgoing to look like a beautiful
movie background for all ofthese.
(40:16):
So we found a castle in Michiganactually in like Lansing area in
Rosanita (40:20):
Michigan.
Emilio (40:21):
Yes, it's a museum dedicated to a Michigan author
who is the first author to sella million books.
And so he has a tiny littlecastle.
It's very like Disney aestheticto it, but it was, it was
beautiful.
It was perfect.
I just heard search castles inMichigan on Google.
And we found that and we'relike, great.
How much did we read this?
And then it was cheaper than aset builder.
(40:42):
I was like, this is cheaper thana set builder.
Let's just do this.
Let's do movies.
And then we did a forest for onelocation.
And then we use scarab club forthe tower of Rapunzel.
I actually think it was the bestthing that can happen to us
because it looks so much morevisually stunning on the screen
to actually be in a forest.
So to actually have a castlebehind you, as opposed to having
a set designer, you know, painta forest in the background.
(41:05):
So I'm really, really excitedabout that film, which should be
out hopefully this spring andwe'll put it on YouTube so
people can watch it directlyfrom YouTube.
And then our next officialplanning show won't be until
winter, but I always say followus on social media because we
like to drop some surprisesalong the way and sometimes
(41:27):
funding comes along the way andwe don't have official show plan
but someone says, Hey, we'llgive you this money if you do a
show and then we got to find theactors really quickly.
So, if you're an actor,definitely follow us at BNB
theater because things come upall the time and we always do
different gigs and shortprojects as well.
Rosanita (41:48):
And for you, Emilio, separate from the Black and
Brown theater right now, you arethe guest artist at Interlochen
and then what's after that?
Emilio (41:58):
Yeah, so right now, like you mentioned, focused on the
guest artist thing.
That'll be until March.
And then during this time, Ihave a little bit of downtime
too, but I'm actually using thatbecause I got a grant through
the University of Michigan,where I teach an intro to
playwriting class in the fall towrite a book called Everyone Can
Write a Play.
Okay.
And it's just sort of aculmination of everything I've
been teaching for all ageranges.
(42:20):
What I've been teachingelementary students, what I've
been teaching the collegestudents at U of M, what I've
been teaching the seniorsthrough the Ipsy program.
And really this idea that I'vebeen teaching everyone how to
write a play, no matter theirage, no matter their reading
level.
Why don't I just make a book ofthis?
And so I'm really excited forthat book to come out because
like I mentioned, baby Emilioloved reading because of his
(42:40):
mom.
And so I would think it wasjust.
So cool to see a book with myname on it.
So that's the project I'll befocused on.
And then in the fall, I'll goback to teaching intro
playwriting at U of M.
And then from there, everythingis, is up in the air of what
happens.
I've got a couple of plays thatare being talked about and I, I
(43:02):
just got the wild award for oneof the plays that I wrote called
God Kind of Looks Like Tupac.
And there are a couple othercompanies looking at that play.
So we'll see if those land.
If they do land, you'll knowfrom my Instagram page,
@emiliowritesplays, where to seethose productions if they do
work out in 2023 or 2024.
Rosanita (43:22):
Again, thank you for coming on to the show.
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