July 3, 2024 • 45 mins
In this episode, Emilio Rodriguez, the co-founder and artistic director of Black and Brown Theater, discusses the origins of the theater company and its mission to promote inclusivity and diversity in the theatrical landscape. Emilio shares his experiences of facing segregation and typecasting in the theater industry and how it inspired him to create a platform for artists of color. He also talks about the Our Voices program, which allows students to write and direct their own plays, and the impact it has on their growth and development. Emilio emphasizes the importance of variety in programming and the need to challenge and engage audiences of all ages.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rosanita (00:00):
Welcome to episode one, staging diversity, a
conversation with EmilioRodriguez.
Join us in our inauguralepisode.
As we sit down with EmilioRodriguez, the co founder and
artistic director of black andBrown theater.
Discover how Emilio's vision andpassion are reshaping the
theatrical landscape, fosteringinclusivity.
(00:22):
And bringing diverse narrativesto the forefront of the stage.
Good afternoon, Emilio.
And welcome to Behind theCurtain.
It's a podcast about artists andthe institutions that support
them.
I know that you are EmilioRodriguez.
You are the artistic director ofthe Black and Brown Theater, as
(00:42):
well as the co founder, right?
Emilio (00:45):
Yes.
Rosanita (00:45):
And can you give just kind of a background about
yourself and then also Came upwith the idea of the theater.
Emilio (00:54):
Yes.
So I studied theater in collegeand I originally came from
California and I moved toDetroit about just over 10 years
ago.
And I really was excited abouthow we could get, how to get
involved with the theater scenehere.
But something that I noticed inthe theater scene when I first
(01:16):
moved here that was a little bitdifferent from California was
that everything was reallysegregated.
So there were some opportunitiesfor theater artists of color,
but it was all a segregatedexperience.
And I wasn't noticing anyoverlap, particularly between
Black and Latino artists, whichis what I was used to in
California.
(01:37):
And so a group of other artistsand me, we just came up with
this idea and we were reallyjust thinking about doing a
showcase.
And it was sort of the idea was,this is what we will show people
of what is possible.
And then other people will takeit in their hands and do it.
And we'll be able to, um, sitback and then after that
showcase, it was really theaudience who said from us, okay,
(01:59):
when's the next show, when's thefull length show, when's this
project, can you come to ourschools?
And so it was never theintention that we were going to
fully become a company.
It was just an idea for ashowcase.
But because of the audienceresponse, that's what sort of
formed us into the company thatwe are now, because the company
was saying, we want more ofthis.
(02:20):
And the artists were saying, uh,we don't want to wait to see if
other companies will follow thismodel.
We just want to keep this modelgoing.
Rosanita (02:30):
You said you were, you're originally from
California and that it wasreally different there.
Now I admit to doing, we'll justsay research.
An article.
mentioned that when you weregoing on auditions, when you
were first starting that youdidn't know that if you didn't
get a call that you didn't goin.
(02:53):
Is that right?
When that was happening, did youin that kind of who was getting
cast more often than not or andand what kind of productions
like if you were Latino, thenwere you typecast in Latino only
roles?
Emilio (03:09):
Yeah.
Wow.
You did your research with thatstory.
Yeah.
So that's, that's a true storythat happened to me, but
actually what a lot of peopledon't know and what I was so
afraid to talk about for a whilewas it was a Latino theater
company.
So sometimes people are likemaking the assumption, Oh, it's
because of your ethnicity oryour identity that you didn't
get the part.
But really, even within somespaces that advocate for racial
(03:34):
justice, there were some, Stilldifferent inequities happening,
colorism comes into play,featurism, do you look this
part?
And that was really the hardestthing for me living in
California was that everythingwas so image based and
everything was based on how youlook because they are the TV
city, right?
(03:55):
So everything.
Preparing people to be ontelevision or this person could
end up on television and thenwe'll have a famous alumni who
came through our theatercompany.
And so I felt like I didn't havethe right look for L.
A.
that prevented me simply fromseeing my headshot.
People would make the decision.
Oh, you don't need to come in tothe audition.
And I do love that here inMichigan, it's, it's been the
(04:17):
opposite, right?
People are willing to seeanyone, but then the, the
challenge then happens with,well, everyone has the
opportunity to be seen, but foran audition, but then what
actually happens in the work ofthe productions.
Rosanita (04:33):
Right, well, having lived in California myself, I'm
not surprised that, you know, itwas a Latino theater company and
that the colorism and featurismexisted.
I know that that is kind of anissue within the community
itself, but then also just, youknow, featurism overall is very
(04:56):
much an entertainment industry.
And not just entertainment, butI'd say arts.
Industry as a whole kind of anissue, because any sort of
visual arts, you kind of seewhat's considered the right
quote, unquote, right featuresto be presented.
And then you were at U.
C.
Irvine and did you experiencethe same kind of issues at at U.
(05:22):
C.
Irvine if it was within thetheater program?
Itself, or is that something youfeel comfortable in answering?
Emilio (05:30):
Yes, the, the thing about a lot of universities,
especially post COVID, I thinkthere's even more high turnover
rates.
So some of the people who werethere were not the same people
who are there now.
So I can't comment on how it isnow.
But for me, when was I there andgraduated?
Over 10 years ago, and I doremember my first intro acting
(05:54):
class, the, the teacher who wasa MFA student.
So they had some of the MFAstudents teach the intro acting
classes and we had our 1 on 1check in towards the end of the
semester.
And she said, you know, yourlook is.
Very unique.
And I think you should focusinstead of going the traditional
(06:17):
route of acting.
I think you should embrace thequirkiness of your features and
really look into like improv orsomewhere else's stand up comedy
and those kind of realms whereyour look might be more fit.
And now people, you know, areaddressing these stuff on social
media and TikTok and I, I didn'thave social media or any
(06:38):
platform to address that when,when I was coming up and, and I
didn't think I was weird lookinguntil I took an acting class
that they said, yeah, you'rekind of weird looking.
And, and so that's somethingthat I.
think of now when I'm doingcasting to is not just opening
it up based on someone's racialidentity or color or featurisms
(07:02):
as it pertains to a racialgroup, but also just the idea
of.
Who gets to decide what isattractive or unattractive and
seeing a variety of people inroles.
So sometimes, yes, we do have a,uh, woman who is very
traditionally gorgeous playingthe princess.
And sometimes we also have awoman who someone else might
(07:24):
say, oh, that's not the typicalstandard of beauty playing the
princess because it communicatesa message to the audience, which
says the, the idea of what aprincess is, is not.
Based on their look, it's basedon their personality.
It's based on their kindness.
And that's what we want thepeople watching the show to, to
take away from it.
And that's what we want theyoung people watching the show
(07:46):
to emulate, right?
It's not that I look like aprincess.
It's that I act like a princess.
I exude kindness and I amlooking out for other people and
I am able to be selfless and putothers priorities before my own.
Rosanita (08:01):
Kind of segwaying into kids.
You also taught right throughteach for America in Detroit.
See, like I said, I don't callit Internet stocking the
research.
So, how did you go from?
I want to act.
I want to be in the theater to,you know, what?
(08:22):
I really think I could make animpact on kids in kids lives and
I want to be a part of thatprocess in a public school
setting.
Emilio (08:33):
Yes.
For so long.
I, I think I had not.
really seen teaching as a firstdecision just because both of my
parents were educators.
So it kind of felt like, Oh, Ican't do that.
That's so obvious.
That's so predictable.
My mom was a preschool teacher.
My dad was a high schoolteacher.
So, uh, I had always thought Ican't, I can't go that route,
(08:57):
but then I had graduated fromcollege and I was working with
the YMCA.
And I was teaching a, coteaching a kindergarten class
that was after school becausethe kindergartners were released
at like 12 30, something reallyearly.
So we basically just extendedthe day for them, for parents
who were unable to pick theirkids up at 12 30.
(09:17):
And through that I was realizinghow much teachers are really
Artists they are, especiallywhen they're working with the
younger students, but I guess Iwould say that for all ages,
teachers are truly artists andmaking this educational
material, engaging andinteresting and especially in
this new generation whereeverything is 10 seconds.
(09:39):
And I swipe.
Five seconds and I swipe so theyreally have to be engaging and
thinking outside the box.
And that was really the momentwhere I thought, Oh, teaching
doesn't have to be somethingthat's separate from my
artistry.
It's actually benefits bothareas.
If I bring my artistry to myteaching and I bring my teaching
to my artistry and that's when Iapplied and for teach for
(10:02):
America actually applied as akindergarten teacher because
that's what I was doing.
They put me in high school, butI, I, I had a great time with it
because I believe everythinghappens for a reason.
And the very first day ofschool, the drama teacher quit
and they said, all right,Emilio, you have a drama degree.
Can you do half English, halfdrama?
And so that's what I did atMumford for the two years that I
(10:24):
was there.
So it was, it all worked outthat I, I still got to teach
drama as well.
Rosanita (10:30):
I have a teach for America question back when I was
in college, I was actually aspecial ed major and I applied
for teach for America.
I got in as a part of theapplication process.
We were called in forinterviews.
And during the interviews, wehad to.
Perform a mini lesson, was thatstill a part of the application
(10:50):
process when you did it?
And if so, do you remember thelesson that you taught?
Emilio (10:56):
Yes, I did a lesson on, I don't remember exactly what I
taught, but I know that I'dincorporated the book, Brown
Bear, Brown Bear, What Do YouSee?
Because I was very adamantlyfocused on kindergarten and I
was teaching a kindergartenclass.
So that's why it was just sosurprising when they put me in
high school English, because Iwas like, my lesson was, maybe
did they mix me up with someoneelse?
(11:17):
But yeah, I do remember that Ihad used the book, Brown Bear,
Brown Bear, What Do You See?
And I had had like differentanimal books.
Puppets that I made out of feltsthat I had all the other people
hold in the, in the minilessons.
So yeah, needless to say, it wasvery surprising where I was
placed, but everything happensfor a reason.
Rosanita (11:34):
It does.
So, you know, I had an earlychildhood, um, education
background.
I was a teaching assistant and Iremember from that and then
going through the, the educationprogram, a lot of what we were
taught for early childhoodliteracy and literacy in those
younger years.
Was just how, how beneficial itwas to be able to act out the
(11:56):
books that they were reading,not just for the decoding
skills, but really a lot for thecomprehension skills.
And so, you know, that's why Iwas like, I wonder what lesson
he did for TFA.
Emilio (12:11):
Yes, I think comprehension is something that
I'm thinking about too, asparticularly as we're looking
for different funding sourcesand, and looking for ways to
expand the organization andlooking for ways to, to showcase
to the donors, right?
It's almost like you have toprove that arts are valuable in
this new world we live in versusthose of us who are already in
the arts.
We already know it's intrinsicvalue, but yeah, comprehension
(12:33):
is something that I'm thinking alot about.
And actually my nephew readsreally well and was reading
pretty early, but Comprehensionwas always something that came
back on the on the report cardfor him.
So it was like, he can read thisabove grade level.
But then when he's asked thecomprehension questions of what
did you read or what justhappened?
Or can you summarize this?
(12:54):
That was an area of growth forhim.
Um, and it's something that I'm.
Thinking about, um, the, thearts and, and how do the arts
help, uh, with readingcomprehension, even things like
when my mom, I started readingpretty early because my mom
would do voices.
She would read to me.
So all of the differentcharacters would have their
(13:15):
different specific voices.
And I feel like that.
helped me engage in reading, butit also helped me comprehend the
story because I understood thecharacters and I understood the
plot better because I understoodhow the plot was functioning
with the characters and And thecharacters sort of helped me
remember, Oh, there's a thischaracter at this point, or
(13:35):
there's a character who comes inat this point.
So I, I do think that drama andtheater, I, yeah, I'm, now I'm,
I'm thinking more about how ithelps with comprehension, as you
said.
And I, I think that's somethingthat my mom unintentionally
instilled on me through bringingvoices when she would read to
me.
Rosanita (13:55):
Yeah, but mine was the same.
I had an older brother who, whodid it.
And then when, actually, when hewas in elementary school, his
third grade teacher had adaptedthe book Me Too, the Mercer of
the Mire, like the littlemonster guy.
Anyway, it was a book about, Ayounger sibling who was always
(14:17):
following after the oldersibling, you know, like me to
me's to and she into a play forfor the students as a part of
the reading comprehension.
And that was something that justalso kind of stuck with me going
through school, going throughteacher prep program was.
(14:38):
Just how engaged, you know,people were during during that
time period.
And that also leads me into youhave that our voices program
where you do a screenplay thingwith students or is it solely
storytelling?
Can you explain a little bitmore how that works?
Emilio (14:57):
Yes.
So the our voices program, thankyou for bringing that up.
It's one of my favorite programsand something we, we test
launched.
And I, I love to use it also asa story to remind people that
their ideas are brilliant, nomatter who believes in you or
not, because I actually pitchedthis to an organization that I
was working for a nonprofit Iwas working for and they turned
(15:19):
it down and then I had left thenonprofit and the same year.
This nonprofit that I used towork for and black and brown
theater applied for this biggrant with the Ann Arbor
community foundation.
And we ended up getting thegrant and, and the person from
the nonprofit who writes theirgrants, who I'm still really
(15:40):
good friends with.
I consider her a great mentor.
She, you know, jokingly said tome, Oh, you, you guys got the
grant for buzz.
And I was like, yeah.
But I also did offer the programto you all.
So I like to tell people that,like, you know, believe in your
programs, execute them, followthem out.
Not everyone will see thevision.
But yeah, we had this idea of,what if we flip the, the, flip
(16:02):
the idea of TYA theater?
So much of TYA theater, theaterfor young audiences, is that,
The, an adult directs and writesa script that kids perform, and
it's a beautiful model.
It's worked for so many years,but I also think there's
opportunity to adjust and adaptto students who have different
(16:24):
strengths because I experienceda lot of students who weren't.
Very comfortable on stage anddidn't necessarily have a desire
to be on stage.
And I think that's somethingthat's okay, right?
It doesn't have to be that everystudent has to be on stage or
every year because in real life,not everyone is.
(16:44):
Is a Beyonce or is a Rihanna,right?
Some people have to go see theBeyonce concert or be behind the
scenes of, you know, someonemade Beyonce's clothing.
Someone came up with achoreography for that amazing
concert she did.
And I think that's what wewanted to do was to help
children see that theater has somany different parts to it.
(17:05):
It's not just being on stage.
And so the, what we flipped waswe said, what if the students
write the script?
And they'll also direct thescript, so they get to be
writers and directors.
And that was just the, the 1stpart.
That's how we sort of startedthe program.
And then we brought in our adultactors from the company to come
and perform the scripts that thestudents wrote as the process
(17:28):
continued, we realize, oh, thereare other elements of theater.
There is there's sound design.
There's lighting design.
There's costume design.
So there were some students whodidn't want to write a script.
And instead of saying.
You're not trying hard enough orwhy aren't you doing this?
We said, okay, you have adifferent strength in writing.
Maybe you're an artist.
You can do what an actualcostume designer does, which is
(17:53):
a rendering.
This skill that you have, thatyou're doodling on your notebook
right now is actually the skillsthat you need to write.
to harness that a designer woulduse to come up with a costume
rendering.
So yes, you are going to havethis time to draw, but it's
drawing based off of the script.
So you have to read the scriptand then you have to think about
each character, what would theywear that would make sense in
(18:15):
the script.
And you have to look at thelines carefully because if it
says that it's snowing and it'scold out, you can't put them in
a t shirt.
That wouldn't make sense withthe right.
And so then they learn like.
Going back to thatcomprehension, right?
When you give people a purposeto read, their comprehension
improves, their reading analysisimproves, because the students
(18:36):
who, some teachers said, oh,this person's not the strongest
reader.
They were working on the readingwith them.
But when we gave them a focusof, okay, I see that you're
doodling.
I see that you're an artist.
Take that, be the costumedesigner, come up with a costume
rendering, but you have to readthe script so that the costume
you come up with makes sense tothe story.
(18:56):
And then they were able toremember details from the story.
Oh, and explain it, right?
Oh, I put them in a coat andgloves because this line on page
three says, I'm freezing.
So I wanted them to be coveredin things to indicate that
they're freezing.
Or this line on page.
Seven said they were shovelingsnow outside, so they need to be
(19:17):
looking like how we in Michigandress, but it's snow when we're
shoveling snow outside, right?
It's layers and layers andlayers.
And, and that really is how theprogram sort of kept evolving.
And then COVID happened.
And we were like, Oh, we can'tsend people in the classroom.
We can't even be in theclassroom, but thankfully we, we
leveraged zoom.
(19:37):
And so we had the students workthrough zoom.
And then one of our, our companymembers just said, you know,
you've been doing some animationstuff for promo, which we were
doing for, to promote, topromote, you know, the, the
youth and family shows.
And they said, why not?
Do some animation stuff for the,our voices.
(19:58):
And so we had this funding to doour voices, but it was COVID
times.
And so we said, all right, let'sanimate the stories that the
students had.
And that way we were able tohave just one actor safely from
their home, just pull out aniPhone and speak the lines into
their iPhone and then send usthat recording of that one
(20:20):
minute play.
And then we were able to sendthat to the animator and the
animator was able to send backthe animation that corresponded
to the dialogue that thestudents wrote.
And they were also able to takein inspiration if the students
did like costume renderings ordesign renderings of what they
wanted the animation to looklike, what they wanted the
(20:42):
characters to wear.
The animator was then able touse that.
And that was our younger group.
So the artists were, you know,seven, eight years old.
So still pretty young, but itwas actually really cool to see
what they drew and then how theprofessional illustrator was
able to interpret that and makeit this, this quality cartoon
product that we realized, oh,that's actually an even better.
(21:06):
Start introduction to youngpeople into the world of the
arts because they're alreadywatching cartoons in their free
time.
Anyways, that's what they'rewatching on YouTube and they're
and they're streaming platforms.
And so then we're able to usethat as a sort of a hook of, Oh,
well, how do you think theseartists are able to act
effectively?
A lot of them have theatertraining.
(21:27):
That's why they have such greatvoices.
And that's why they're able to,to utilize their voices in a way
that.
authentically portrays thecharacters because of that, that
theater training.
And so it unintentionally just,it keeps evolving.
The program keeps evolving andI'm looking forward to seeing
where it goes by 2025.
Who knows?
Because I never would havepredicted animation being a part
(21:47):
of it, but I think I'm lookingforward to just seeing where it
continues to grow.
Rosanita (21:53):
I have to say like, I love listening to all this, not
just as the, a teacher, But justas a community member, listening
to what's available to kids andyour excitement about it and
how, you know, you're like,okay, we still want to keep this
(22:13):
program going.
What can we do?
How can we still, you know,engage with our students and
then instead of just going, youknow.
We'll hold a writer's workshoponline.
You're like, somebody mentionedanimation.
I know we're going to go withthat and we're going to just
turn it into what you did.
Emilio (22:34):
Oh, yes.
Thank you.
Rosanita (22:36):
Yeah, the question is, can we find the finished
products online somewhere?
Emilio (22:43):
Yes, thank you for mentioning that.
I keep forgetting to plug that,but they're all on YouTube.
So they're all on our YouTubechannel.
If you type in Black and BrownTheater on YouTube, just make
sure you spell theater.
You will be able to see all ofthe animation from the stories
that the students wrote.
And you'll also be able toaccess some of our, not all, but
some of our plays that wererecorded during.
(23:03):
COVID times, the ones that wehad funding to record, and
there's also, we did an adultArt Voices through the Ann Arbor
Community Foundation, which wasspecifically working with
Ypsilanti seniors.
So we definitely work with allages.
That's why we like to reallyconsider all ages.
ourselves a family companybecause it's everyone is a part
of the family, but the seniorsgot to write their own stories
(23:27):
and direct their own stories.
And those were filmed becausethat was during the peak of
COVID, they were two personcasts, but it was actually.
Really exciting to see what youcan do with just two people and
how you can tell a story.
And we also got to work withfour different videographers for
that project.
So we could see all thedifferent ways in which local
(23:48):
artists would interpret thatprompt of how do we.
capture a play that someonewrote, a short play that someone
wrote, but how do we blur thelines?
Does it look more like a film?
Does it look more like we'refilming a play?
Are we filming it on set?
And everyone had a differentinterpretation of that prompt.
Um, and they're all, uh, on theYouTube channel that people can
(24:09):
watch and, and see which, whichway they liked it, interpreted
the best.
Rosanita (24:15):
Okay, so I know where to subscribe next going back to
the kids for a minute with doingthe our voices program and
working specifically with thekids and, you know, kind of
where they come in and wherethey go.
When they graduate from theprogram, what kind of growth do
(24:36):
you see?
Not just in terms of like, theircomprehension, but did it like,
you know, I guess, social,emotional growth.
And do you measure do youformally measure that?
of, uh, wow, like we've s Yes,
Emilio (24:52):
I would love to sit who had a little bit more to measure
it.
That's som looking for becausewe do drafts, which gives us a
Objective way to measure growthand also the growth of their
products.
Like first design to last designis something that we use, but
(25:15):
then there's also differentthings like confidence that
we're still looking for a way ofhow do we, formally quantify
that or do qualitative researchthat demonstrates that bit.
That's one thing that we see alot of too, and it depends how
long the program goes becausesometimes the program can be as
short.
(25:35):
We do sometimes 90 minuteworkshops, but then we also have
six week workshops, and we alsohave eight week workshops, and
we also have Full semester,depending on how much funding we
have and how long the school isenabling us to work with the
students.
Like when we did it withMumford, we had a full semester
with them and we basically camein right after the juniors had a
(25:57):
S.
A.
T.
prep class, I think, and theytook their S.
A.
T.
and like April, but the classwas until June.
So.
They were like, you have therest of the school year to, to
try this out.
But yeah, so definitely we seemore growth, the longer it goes.
But like you mentioned, we areable to see on the page, that
growth in writing for thestudents who go the writing
(26:18):
route on the page, we're able tosee the design growth and the
ways in which they're able tocloser retext.
Cause in the beginning you see adesign.
It's just like, oh, this lookscool.
I want to draw Sonic theHedgehog.
But then in the end you see, oh,okay.
Based off of what's in thestory, what's in the text, this
is the character that I actuallyhave to design.
It has to look different thanSonic, because the story is not
(26:40):
about Sonic, so I can't justdraw Sonic.
But then, yeah, the other one Iwould want to figure out a
better way to measure would bethe confidence, because seeing
the students In the beginning,who are very shy and very few
words.
And then in the end, we see themable to fully defend their
story, defend their characterchoices, defend their design
(27:02):
choices, be able to say why theydidn't earn, did, did or did not
include something based off ofthe text.
And, and that's the growth thatI think is, is really exciting.
And also the collaborativeelement too.
I think group projects aresometimes a thing that is very
hit or miss.
I remember when I was doinggroup projects as a student,
sometimes it would feel like I'mdoing all the work.
(27:24):
But with theater, we get tolearn about how it's so
important that everyone hastheir own part.
And when everyone does theirpart, Then no one's doing all
the work, but we're allcollaboratively working together
to make the best show possible,which I think is just innately a
part of theater that I wishthere was a better qualitative
or quantitative way to measureit so that people could see how
(27:48):
transformational just theater ingeneral is in the collaborative,
social, emotional setting, butparticularly with this project
with each student being in therole that best fits them.
So, yes, you love to sketch inyour notebook.
That means you are a perfect,yeah.
Costume designer.
You can do a great rendering.
And yes, you're great withwords.
So maybe you're a writer andmaybe you're confident in
speaking.
You can be included on stagewith the adult actors and you
(28:11):
are someone who really looks atdifferent color schemes, but you
don't draw as well, but you loveto.
thinking about the ways thatcolors go together.
Maybe you're our lightingdesigner.
Oh, you're someone who loveslistening to music and you're
always able to think aboutsound.
You are our sound designer.
You can pick all the songs thatgo in between every show that
we're going to present.
So that way it flows naturally.
(28:32):
It has one cohesive tone, but italso makes sense with not only
the show that's before, but theshow that's after.
So you have to pick a song thatwould make sense in both of
those stories to transition us.
So I always think of like theclassic Jack Black scene from
School of Rock where he's like,Oh, you can play the cello.
(28:52):
The bass is kind of like acello, cello, you know, and he's
assigning all the parts to allthe kids.
That's, that's how we feel aboutour voices and like in the
perfect world, it's like takingthe strengths that the kids
already have.
But, um, Exemplifying them andthen realizing that when each
kid has their strength andthey're able to, to sharpen
(29:14):
that, it actually helps theirreading skills because
ultimately it all comes down toa play that we are working on.
So those reading and writingskills are also benefiting
because it gives a purpose toreading.
It's not just read because wetold you to, it's read because
you're going to, when you readthis, you're going to be able to
showcase your own skills in away that In doing something that
(29:35):
you enjoy, you love listening tomusic, so you have to read these
plays so that you can show toeveryone else why you are so
great at picking music and musicthat will take us through all of
these stories.
Rosanita (29:47):
When I hear that, I'm kind of just listening to your
grant application right now.
Narrative, right?
Which takes me to another point,which is Are there grants for
art organizations to do that?
Or do you have to go into theeducation realm?
Like, how would you go abouttrying to find a grant for
(30:07):
something like that?
Emilio (30:10):
Yes, we have been so fortunate to work a lot with the
Ann Arbor area communityfoundation.
They have been 1 of our biggestsupporters, particularly for
that program.
They funded the senior program.
They funded the program withthe.
The students in Ypsi, so theywere a huge resource and the
first ones to give us asubstantial amount of money to
enable us to do the program and,and really believe in us and
(30:33):
invest in us.
Rosanita (30:34):
But outside of them,
Emilio (30:37):
Yeah, most of it has been through community
foundations or through artsfoundations.
Sometimes a school or auniversity is able to promote
it.
A university is able to pay forit for a high school or for a
elementary school that they'reworking with.
Yeah.
Most of our funding has beenthrough arts organizations and I
(30:57):
would love to investigate andsee how do we get funding
through the education sector?
How do we get funding throughUniversity of Michigan or
Eastern to bring us to theschools or Wayne State to bring
us to Detroit schools because Ithink there is so much money,
especially in higher education.
And they're also very interestedin the K through 12 programming
(31:20):
that creates the next generationof, of critical thinkers.
But yeah, for us, it's justsometimes hard to even Get that
1st meeting where we talk aboutwhat that program looks like and
how it's mutually beneficial.
Rosanita (31:34):
Really?
Even though you've been doingthis, that's the 7th year.
Emilio (31:40):
Yes.
We're going into the 7th year inOctober.
Rosanita (31:43):
Yeah.
So I guess around the 5 to 7year mark, you're established.
Nonprofit, right?
Like, you're no longer just anemerging 1 and, you know, I
guess in my naivety, David, hey,it's that I would think it'd be
easier now to get an appointmentthan when you 1st started.
(32:06):
But I'm just an outsider, so Ihave no idea.
Emilio (32:10):
I think it varies because, yeah, the arts
organizations and the communityfoundations that wouldn't even
have responded to a letter ofinquiry to us in year two, now
we can set up meetings and wecan get funding.
But sometimes the Educationrealm, because we don't directly
interact with a lot of thedecision makers in the education
(32:33):
realm.
They are not familiar with usorganization.
Even when we do the programmingin the schools, oftentimes we're
directly connecting withprincipals or even teachers,
sometimes our direct connection.
And so the decision makers whodecide who to give funding to
sometimes.
Have no interaction with us andno, no knowledge of even the
(32:55):
programming that we did in theirschools, which is unfortunate
and something that I would loveto see change.
But I think slowly, but surely,we are developing more and more
relationships with the decisionmakers of the schools and that's
what's going to allow us to workwith more schools in the future.
Rosanita (33:11):
Do you think that's just kind of more of just the
natural progression where whenyou're first getting started?
And you're typically are talkingwith somebody who's who you're
directly going to work with.
And then as time goes on, it'sokay.
Now, you're no longer stucktalking with the teacher.
Then it's the principal thenit's, you know, 1 at office is
(33:34):
that just kind of.
a natural progression?
Emilio (33:38):
I think so, because I think in the beginning, so many
people are scared to take thatrisk, because what if this
program goes wrong?
How does that make the schoollook?
What if a child doesn't have agood time with this program?
What if multiple children have anegative experience with this
program?
what we're And, and so Iunderstand the, the risk element
for a school, if it's workingwith a organization that, you
(34:01):
know, nothing about, you have noreferences who can speak to what
the organization will look likeor what their work will look
like.
So, yeah, I completelyunderstand the hesitation and
the fear of, of jumping into anew program.
But yeah, I think what you said,there's like a natural
progression as you start workingwith more schools that.
(34:21):
Those other schools become yourreference.
And that's actually whathappened to one of the schools
we work with or the programs wework with, with bright futures
and Ypsilanti first, it was likeone or two sites that we, we'd
reached out to all of theirsites.
Who wants to work with us?
We have a grant.
We'll come to any one of you.
And then only one or two sitestook us up on that.
And then the next year we werelike, well, we don't have
(34:43):
funding.
And they were like, But we do,we can contract you guys to come
as artists.
And then it sort of built fromthere.
And I think by the end of thepast two years, we've been at, I
want to say nine or 10 of theirsites now when it started off
with two.
So, Yes, it takes a while, butit's kind of nice that it
(35:04):
happens organically because we,we really build that trust and
that excitement instead of ushaving to tell the sites.
This is what we can do for you.
They're reaching out to us nowand saying, we heard great
things from this site and thissite.
So we want you to come to oursite now.
Rosanita (35:19):
I want to switch gears a little bit because we spent
the majority of the time talkingabout the school program
because, you know, it'sfantastic and necessary and make
such an impact and truly that inthe programming for kids is how
I had 1st heard about the blackand brown.
(35:40):
Theater, you guys had done aproduction at, I think, the
Michigan theater and a friend ofmine had taken her daughter and
her little girl just fell inlove and, you know, went
backstage and got to meet theactors and actresses and it's
magical for a little kid.
Right?
And so that's how I, I first mether.
(36:01):
Heard about you guys, and itseems like that's kind of more
of the productions that you guysdo here in Ann Arbor, but back
to that Internet sleuthing you.
I know that you, you put on andyou sponsor and promote other.
More adult topics as well,right?
Emilio (36:21):
Yes.
So we have a variety.
We are definitely leaningtowards more family friendly
programming.
It doesn't always have to bespecifically focused on, on
kids, but definitely we do likethe idea of a program that does
feel family friendly, but familyfriendly can also be
challenging.
That's some of my most memorableprogramming going up was seeing
(36:42):
programming that was gearedtowards families, but it was
able to challenge.
The way in which you think or totake on harder subjects in
engaging ways.
I remember the, the Disneychannel movie color friendship,
which was so beautifully doneand talking about prejudices
and, and stereotypes anddifferent expectations.
(37:03):
And the belief that two peoplewho have different experiences
can't come together.
And, and that movie shows you sobeautifully that they can, but
you have to actively work toovercome your biases.
And I think what's exciting nowis that we're able to delve more
into that work that ischallenging, but still
purposeful and still a part ofshaping the next generation and
(37:25):
also helping families have thoseconversations.
So our last show we did EdmundAllen Jones was our playwright,
and Asia Mark who works withMosaic was our director.
And they created a wonder andcamera Graham, who was a EMU
recently and you graduate allcollaborated together on a, a
play about MLK.
That was our assignment.
(37:46):
But our assignment from thelibrary was a library had
funded.
It was.
Give us something beyond I havea dream.
Everyone knows that everyone'sfamiliar with that.
How can you go deeper?
And I kudos to Edmund for thetaking on that challenge of
writing the play in a very shortamount of time and Asian and
Cameron for bringing it to life,but that.
(38:06):
Play was, you know, took on someideas that some people might not
feel are right for families orchildren, like talking about
being arrested and serving timein jail.
But that brings up the, thesystemic issues, right?
And the systemic problems that,you know, We lived in a world
(38:28):
where speaking againstinjustices was a crime.
And so now we have the freedomto to speak up against
injustices.
And it's something that weshouldn't take for granted
because 50 years ago, peoplewere in prison just for speaking
up and saying, this is notright.
And, and I think that, um,Having that mix of content is
really interesting, too, becauseit allows families to make the
(38:51):
decision for themselves of whatwhat one of our experiences are
right for your child.
If you have a 5 year old, Iwould say the MLK show might not
be the best place to start, butthe princess show might be a
really great.
touch point for them.
And then as your kids progress,or if you have kids at different
age ranges, maybe your 12 yearold would be a great person to
take to the MLK show and learn alittle bit more about history in
(39:14):
an exciting and engaging waythat enables them to have
conversations with your familyafter the show.
Oh, wow.
I didn't realize it was likethat.
I didn't realize that this wassomething that we learned about
in history as if it was, youknow, like, History was ages ago
and it's like, Oh no, they werealive when grandma was alive.
So having those, those takeawaysand that variety of programming
(39:36):
is, is what's important to us.
And I think, you know, peoplealways say variety is the spice
of life.
And I think variety is whatmakes a company that focuses on
BIPOC artists so valuable sothat we're not.
ever pigeonholed into BIPOCartists can only do one thing.
BIPOC artists can only dohistory plays or BIPOC artists
(39:56):
can only do plays about socialjustice.
It's BIPOC artists can doeverything.
We can have plays that arehistorical, we can have plays
that are on social issues, andwe can have plays that are just
a princess living her bestprincess life.
All of the above because we alllike all of those things as
BIPOC human beings.
(40:17):
We want to see ourselvesrepresented in all of those
spaces.
We want to have conversationswith people about all of those
things.
And we enjoy all of those thingsbecause we are fully three
dimensional human beings whodeal with inequities and social
injustices, but also love tohave fun and hang out with our
family and friends and just becarefree sometimes.
Rosanita (40:37):
You mentioned it was a collaborative effort between
people from different, you know,like, you have the, the young
woman from Eastern, someone frommosaic.
Did they come to you with the,the idea?
Or was it like a call forsubmissions?
How does that work?
Emilio (40:55):
Yes, so, uh, librarian had just reached out to, to
black and brown theater and wesaid, okay, with this prompt and
then we sat down and we said,okay.
Okay.
Who from our networks, um,because we had such a short
amount of time, we knew that weweren't going to be able to do a
call for submissions as we wouldlike to do if we had like maybe
a year warning, but we had likethree months.
(41:16):
So if we put out a call forsubmission and give people a
month to respond, then we havetwo months to make the project
come together.
So with those three months, wesaid we have to.
Make the offers today so thatpeople have three months to work
on this project.
And we just started lookingthrough our contacts.
Who have we worked with before?
Who have we worked with onsmaller projects that we would
like to try a bigger projectwith?
(41:37):
So Edmund had worked with us asan actor and he had kept
expressing to us that he was awriter and he had sent us some
scripts that we weren't able toalign with what we were doing at
that time, but we saw hispotential as a writer.
And so we thought this is aperfect way for him to try on a
new challenge and also showcasehis writing skills and then
(41:57):
Cameron, he had just done a showwith us as an actor, or I
directed him in a show that Iwas doing at matrix theater
company separate from black andbrown.
But he was such an incredibleactor and was so great at
getting off book and learninghis lines in such a quick
timeframe.
And he actually learned hisscene partners lines as well,
(42:17):
too.
So he was like in Dolly Partonmode where he's memorizing the
whole script.
And so we were like, okay, he isthe perfect actor for this
process.
And then.
When we were looking atdirectors, we were thinking, Oh,
we right now have a maleplaywright and a male actor
who's going to do a one manshow.
This is really something we canstart thinking about.
(42:39):
How do we incorporate women'svoices in this project?
And if it's not going to bethrough the writing and through
the acting, it still needs to bein a leadership position.
And then we started thinkingabout the director.
Who are the directors we want?
And we had worked with Asia on afive minute play that she had
directed through a collaborationwith Mosaic.
And we said, all right, she'sour perfect person for this with
(43:02):
her experiences to work in ashort time frame and really help
actors bring out Um, differentcharacters and utilize different
parts of their voices, which wasso important for a one person
script because Cameron was gonnahave to play multiple
characters.
So Asia was the perfect personto help him really utilize all
of his voice and all of his bodyto become those different
(43:23):
characters.
Rosanita (43:25):
For those who don't know, what's Mosaic?
Emilio (43:28):
Oh, yes.
So Mosaic is a wonderful theatercompany, a youth theater
company, and it focusesspecifically on training middle
and high school age students inboth acting and singing.
So they have a singing program,which is like a choir that the
students work on, on theirsinging abilities, singing
harmony, learning differentsongs, musical theater songs,
(43:49):
classic songs.
All the repertory and then theirtheater program is for the
actors.
And so they, they take on avariety of projects as well.
And they do different scriptsand different plays that help
them develop their skills asactors.
And they also have a techprogram as well.
So their young people learn howto do lighting design and stage
management and all of theelements needed for theater.
Rosanita (44:12):
And is this based in the Metro Detroit area?
Emilio (44:16):
Yes.
Mosaic Youth Theater of Detroit.
They are actually based in aDetroit school, University Prep.
And they basically have theafter school hours to work with
the students.
Rosanita (44:29):
This seems like a great spot to, stop part.
One of our interview with EmilioRodriguez.
We'll have to continue this nextweek.
Thank you for joining us forpart one of my interview with
Emilio Rodriguez.
In part two, we'll explore howthe Black and Brown Theater
(44:49):
secures its funding and delveinto the challenges and
successes they've experienced.
Make sure to tune in for thecontinuation of this insightful
conversation.
Thanks for listening and see younext time on Behind the Curtain.
Welcome to episode one, staging diversity, a
conversation with EmilioRodriguez.
Join us in our inauguralepisode.
As we sit down with EmilioRodriguez, the co founder and
artistic director of black andBrown theater.
Discover how Emilio's vision andpassion are reshaping the
theatrical landscape, fosteringinclusivity.
(00:22):
And bringing diverse narrativesto the forefront of the stage.
Good afternoon, Emilio.
And welcome to Behind theCurtain.
It's a podcast about artists andthe institutions that support
them.
I know that you are EmilioRodriguez.
You are the artistic director ofthe Black and Brown Theater, as
(00:42):
well as the co founder, right?
Emilio (00:45):
Yes.
Rosanita (00:45):
And can you give just kind of a background about
yourself and then also Came upwith the idea of the theater.
Emilio (00:54):
Yes.
So I studied theater in collegeand I originally came from
California and I moved toDetroit about just over 10 years
ago.
And I really was excited abouthow we could get, how to get
involved with the theater scenehere.
But something that I noticed inthe theater scene when I first
(01:16):
moved here that was a little bitdifferent from California was
that everything was reallysegregated.
So there were some opportunitiesfor theater artists of color,
but it was all a segregatedexperience.
And I wasn't noticing anyoverlap, particularly between
Black and Latino artists, whichis what I was used to in
California.
(01:37):
And so a group of other artistsand me, we just came up with
this idea and we were reallyjust thinking about doing a
showcase.
And it was sort of the idea was,this is what we will show people
of what is possible.
And then other people will takeit in their hands and do it.
And we'll be able to, um, sitback and then after that
showcase, it was really theaudience who said from us, okay,
(01:59):
when's the next show, when's thefull length show, when's this
project, can you come to ourschools?
And so it was never theintention that we were going to
fully become a company.
It was just an idea for ashowcase.
But because of the audienceresponse, that's what sort of
formed us into the company thatwe are now, because the company
was saying, we want more ofthis.
(02:20):
And the artists were saying, uh,we don't want to wait to see if
other companies will follow thismodel.
We just want to keep this modelgoing.
Rosanita (02:30):
You said you were, you're originally from
California and that it wasreally different there.
Now I admit to doing, we'll justsay research.
An article.
mentioned that when you weregoing on auditions, when you
were first starting that youdidn't know that if you didn't
get a call that you didn't goin.
(02:53):
Is that right?
When that was happening, did youin that kind of who was getting
cast more often than not or andand what kind of productions
like if you were Latino, thenwere you typecast in Latino only
roles?
Emilio (03:09):
Yeah.
Wow.
You did your research with thatstory.
Yeah.
So that's, that's a true storythat happened to me, but
actually what a lot of peopledon't know and what I was so
afraid to talk about for a whilewas it was a Latino theater
company.
So sometimes people are likemaking the assumption, Oh, it's
because of your ethnicity oryour identity that you didn't
get the part.
But really, even within somespaces that advocate for racial
(03:34):
justice, there were some, Stilldifferent inequities happening,
colorism comes into play,featurism, do you look this
part?
And that was really the hardestthing for me living in
California was that everythingwas so image based and
everything was based on how youlook because they are the TV
city, right?
(03:55):
So everything.
Preparing people to be ontelevision or this person could
end up on television and thenwe'll have a famous alumni who
came through our theatercompany.
And so I felt like I didn't havethe right look for L.
A.
that prevented me simply fromseeing my headshot.
People would make the decision.
Oh, you don't need to come in tothe audition.
And I do love that here inMichigan, it's, it's been the
(04:17):
opposite, right?
People are willing to seeanyone, but then the, the
challenge then happens with,well, everyone has the
opportunity to be seen, but foran audition, but then what
actually happens in the work ofthe productions.
Rosanita (04:33):
Right, well, having lived in California myself, I'm
not surprised that, you know, itwas a Latino theater company and
that the colorism and featurismexisted.
I know that that is kind of anissue within the community
itself, but then also just, youknow, featurism overall is very
(04:56):
much an entertainment industry.
And not just entertainment, butI'd say arts.
Industry as a whole kind of anissue, because any sort of
visual arts, you kind of seewhat's considered the right
quote, unquote, right featuresto be presented.
And then you were at U.
C.
Irvine and did you experiencethe same kind of issues at at U.
(05:22):
C.
Irvine if it was within thetheater program?
Itself, or is that something youfeel comfortable in answering?
Emilio (05:30):
Yes, the, the thing about a lot of universities,
especially post COVID, I thinkthere's even more high turnover
rates.
So some of the people who werethere were not the same people
who are there now.
So I can't comment on how it isnow.
But for me, when was I there andgraduated?
Over 10 years ago, and I doremember my first intro acting
(05:54):
class, the, the teacher who wasa MFA student.
So they had some of the MFAstudents teach the intro acting
classes and we had our 1 on 1check in towards the end of the
semester.
And she said, you know, yourlook is.
Very unique.
And I think you should focusinstead of going the traditional
(06:17):
route of acting.
I think you should embrace thequirkiness of your features and
really look into like improv orsomewhere else's stand up comedy
and those kind of realms whereyour look might be more fit.
And now people, you know, areaddressing these stuff on social
media and TikTok and I, I didn'thave social media or any
(06:38):
platform to address that when,when I was coming up and, and I
didn't think I was weird lookinguntil I took an acting class
that they said, yeah, you'rekind of weird looking.
And, and so that's somethingthat I.
think of now when I'm doingcasting to is not just opening
it up based on someone's racialidentity or color or featurisms
(07:02):
as it pertains to a racialgroup, but also just the idea
of.
Who gets to decide what isattractive or unattractive and
seeing a variety of people inroles.
So sometimes, yes, we do have a,uh, woman who is very
traditionally gorgeous playingthe princess.
And sometimes we also have awoman who someone else might
(07:24):
say, oh, that's not the typicalstandard of beauty playing the
princess because it communicatesa message to the audience, which
says the, the idea of what aprincess is, is not.
Based on their look, it's basedon their personality.
It's based on their kindness.
And that's what we want thepeople watching the show to, to
take away from it.
And that's what we want theyoung people watching the show
(07:46):
to emulate, right?
It's not that I look like aprincess.
It's that I act like a princess.
I exude kindness and I amlooking out for other people and
I am able to be selfless and putothers priorities before my own.
Rosanita (08:01):
Kind of segwaying into kids.
You also taught right throughteach for America in Detroit.
See, like I said, I don't callit Internet stocking the
research.
So, how did you go from?
I want to act.
I want to be in the theater to,you know, what?
(08:22):
I really think I could make animpact on kids in kids lives and
I want to be a part of thatprocess in a public school
setting.
Emilio (08:33):
Yes.
For so long.
I, I think I had not.
really seen teaching as a firstdecision just because both of my
parents were educators.
So it kind of felt like, Oh, Ican't do that.
That's so obvious.
That's so predictable.
My mom was a preschool teacher.
My dad was a high schoolteacher.
So, uh, I had always thought Ican't, I can't go that route,
(08:57):
but then I had graduated fromcollege and I was working with
the YMCA.
And I was teaching a, coteaching a kindergarten class
that was after school becausethe kindergartners were released
at like 12 30, something reallyearly.
So we basically just extendedthe day for them, for parents
who were unable to pick theirkids up at 12 30.
(09:17):
And through that I was realizinghow much teachers are really
Artists they are, especiallywhen they're working with the
younger students, but I guess Iwould say that for all ages,
teachers are truly artists andmaking this educational
material, engaging andinteresting and especially in
this new generation whereeverything is 10 seconds.
(09:39):
And I swipe.
Five seconds and I swipe so theyreally have to be engaging and
thinking outside the box.
And that was really the momentwhere I thought, Oh, teaching
doesn't have to be somethingthat's separate from my
artistry.
It's actually benefits bothareas.
If I bring my artistry to myteaching and I bring my teaching
to my artistry and that's when Iapplied and for teach for
(10:02):
America actually applied as akindergarten teacher because
that's what I was doing.
They put me in high school, butI, I, I had a great time with it
because I believe everythinghappens for a reason.
And the very first day ofschool, the drama teacher quit
and they said, all right,Emilio, you have a drama degree.
Can you do half English, halfdrama?
And so that's what I did atMumford for the two years that I
(10:24):
was there.
So it was, it all worked outthat I, I still got to teach
drama as well.
Rosanita (10:30):
I have a teach for America question back when I was
in college, I was actually aspecial ed major and I applied
for teach for America.
I got in as a part of theapplication process.
We were called in forinterviews.
And during the interviews, wehad to.
Perform a mini lesson, was thatstill a part of the application
(10:50):
process when you did it?
And if so, do you remember thelesson that you taught?
Emilio (10:56):
Yes, I did a lesson on, I don't remember exactly what I
taught, but I know that I'dincorporated the book, Brown
Bear, Brown Bear, What Do YouSee?
Because I was very adamantlyfocused on kindergarten and I
was teaching a kindergartenclass.
So that's why it was just sosurprising when they put me in
high school English, because Iwas like, my lesson was, maybe
did they mix me up with someoneelse?
(11:17):
But yeah, I do remember that Ihad used the book, Brown Bear,
Brown Bear, What Do You See?
And I had had like differentanimal books.
Puppets that I made out of feltsthat I had all the other people
hold in the, in the minilessons.
So yeah, needless to say, it wasvery surprising where I was
placed, but everything happensfor a reason.
Rosanita (11:34):
It does.
So, you know, I had an earlychildhood, um, education
background.
I was a teaching assistant and Iremember from that and then
going through the, the educationprogram, a lot of what we were
taught for early childhoodliteracy and literacy in those
younger years.
Was just how, how beneficial itwas to be able to act out the
(11:56):
books that they were reading,not just for the decoding
skills, but really a lot for thecomprehension skills.
And so, you know, that's why Iwas like, I wonder what lesson
he did for TFA.
Emilio (12:11):
Yes, I think comprehension is something that
I'm thinking about too, asparticularly as we're looking
for different funding sourcesand, and looking for ways to
expand the organization andlooking for ways to, to showcase
to the donors, right?
It's almost like you have toprove that arts are valuable in
this new world we live in versusthose of us who are already in
the arts.
We already know it's intrinsicvalue, but yeah, comprehension
(12:33):
is something that I'm thinking alot about.
And actually my nephew readsreally well and was reading
pretty early, but Comprehensionwas always something that came
back on the on the report cardfor him.
So it was like, he can read thisabove grade level.
But then when he's asked thecomprehension questions of what
did you read or what justhappened?
Or can you summarize this?
(12:54):
That was an area of growth forhim.
Um, and it's something that I'm.
Thinking about, um, the, thearts and, and how do the arts
help, uh, with readingcomprehension, even things like
when my mom, I started readingpretty early because my mom
would do voices.
She would read to me.
So all of the differentcharacters would have their
(13:15):
different specific voices.
And I feel like that.
helped me engage in reading, butit also helped me comprehend the
story because I understood thecharacters and I understood the
plot better because I understoodhow the plot was functioning
with the characters and And thecharacters sort of helped me
remember, Oh, there's a thischaracter at this point, or
(13:35):
there's a character who comes inat this point.
So I, I do think that drama andtheater, I, yeah, I'm, now I'm,
I'm thinking more about how ithelps with comprehension, as you
said.
And I, I think that's somethingthat my mom unintentionally
instilled on me through bringingvoices when she would read to
me.
Rosanita (13:55):
Yeah, but mine was the same.
I had an older brother who, whodid it.
And then when, actually, when hewas in elementary school, his
third grade teacher had adaptedthe book Me Too, the Mercer of
the Mire, like the littlemonster guy.
Anyway, it was a book about, Ayounger sibling who was always
(14:17):
following after the oldersibling, you know, like me to
me's to and she into a play forfor the students as a part of
the reading comprehension.
And that was something that justalso kind of stuck with me going
through school, going throughteacher prep program was.
(14:38):
Just how engaged, you know,people were during during that
time period.
And that also leads me into youhave that our voices program
where you do a screenplay thingwith students or is it solely
storytelling?
Can you explain a little bitmore how that works?
Emilio (14:57):
Yes.
So the our voices program, thankyou for bringing that up.
It's one of my favorite programsand something we, we test
launched.
And I, I love to use it also asa story to remind people that
their ideas are brilliant, nomatter who believes in you or
not, because I actually pitchedthis to an organization that I
was working for a nonprofit Iwas working for and they turned
(15:19):
it down and then I had left thenonprofit and the same year.
This nonprofit that I used towork for and black and brown
theater applied for this biggrant with the Ann Arbor
community foundation.
And we ended up getting thegrant and, and the person from
the nonprofit who writes theirgrants, who I'm still really
(15:40):
good friends with.
I consider her a great mentor.
She, you know, jokingly said tome, Oh, you, you guys got the
grant for buzz.
And I was like, yeah.
But I also did offer the programto you all.
So I like to tell people that,like, you know, believe in your
programs, execute them, followthem out.
Not everyone will see thevision.
But yeah, we had this idea of,what if we flip the, the, flip
(16:02):
the idea of TYA theater?
So much of TYA theater, theaterfor young audiences, is that,
The, an adult directs and writesa script that kids perform, and
it's a beautiful model.
It's worked for so many years,but I also think there's
opportunity to adjust and adaptto students who have different
(16:24):
strengths because I experienceda lot of students who weren't.
Very comfortable on stage anddidn't necessarily have a desire
to be on stage.
And I think that's somethingthat's okay, right?
It doesn't have to be that everystudent has to be on stage or
every year because in real life,not everyone is.
(16:44):
Is a Beyonce or is a Rihanna,right?
Some people have to go see theBeyonce concert or be behind the
scenes of, you know, someonemade Beyonce's clothing.
Someone came up with achoreography for that amazing
concert she did.
And I think that's what wewanted to do was to help
children see that theater has somany different parts to it.
(17:05):
It's not just being on stage.
And so the, what we flipped waswe said, what if the students
write the script?
And they'll also direct thescript, so they get to be
writers and directors.
And that was just the, the 1stpart.
That's how we sort of startedthe program.
And then we brought in our adultactors from the company to come
and perform the scripts that thestudents wrote as the process
(17:28):
continued, we realize, oh, thereare other elements of theater.
There is there's sound design.
There's lighting design.
There's costume design.
So there were some students whodidn't want to write a script.
And instead of saying.
You're not trying hard enough orwhy aren't you doing this?
We said, okay, you have adifferent strength in writing.
Maybe you're an artist.
You can do what an actualcostume designer does, which is
(17:53):
a rendering.
This skill that you have, thatyou're doodling on your notebook
right now is actually the skillsthat you need to write.
to harness that a designer woulduse to come up with a costume
rendering.
So yes, you are going to havethis time to draw, but it's
drawing based off of the script.
So you have to read the scriptand then you have to think about
each character, what would theywear that would make sense in
(18:15):
the script.
And you have to look at thelines carefully because if it
says that it's snowing and it'scold out, you can't put them in
a t shirt.
That wouldn't make sense withthe right.
And so then they learn like.
Going back to thatcomprehension, right?
When you give people a purposeto read, their comprehension
improves, their reading analysisimproves, because the students
(18:36):
who, some teachers said, oh,this person's not the strongest
reader.
They were working on the readingwith them.
But when we gave them a focusof, okay, I see that you're
doodling.
I see that you're an artist.
Take that, be the costumedesigner, come up with a costume
rendering, but you have to readthe script so that the costume
you come up with makes sense tothe story.
(18:56):
And then they were able toremember details from the story.
Oh, and explain it, right?
Oh, I put them in a coat andgloves because this line on page
three says, I'm freezing.
So I wanted them to be coveredin things to indicate that
they're freezing.
Or this line on page.
Seven said they were shovelingsnow outside, so they need to be
(19:17):
looking like how we in Michigandress, but it's snow when we're
shoveling snow outside, right?
It's layers and layers andlayers.
And, and that really is how theprogram sort of kept evolving.
And then COVID happened.
And we were like, Oh, we can'tsend people in the classroom.
We can't even be in theclassroom, but thankfully we, we
leveraged zoom.
(19:37):
And so we had the students workthrough zoom.
And then one of our, our companymembers just said, you know,
you've been doing some animationstuff for promo, which we were
doing for, to promote, topromote, you know, the, the
youth and family shows.
And they said, why not?
Do some animation stuff for the,our voices.
(19:58):
And so we had this funding to doour voices, but it was COVID
times.
And so we said, all right, let'sanimate the stories that the
students had.
And that way we were able tohave just one actor safely from
their home, just pull out aniPhone and speak the lines into
their iPhone and then send usthat recording of that one
(20:20):
minute play.
And then we were able to sendthat to the animator and the
animator was able to send backthe animation that corresponded
to the dialogue that thestudents wrote.
And they were also able to takein inspiration if the students
did like costume renderings ordesign renderings of what they
wanted the animation to looklike, what they wanted the
(20:42):
characters to wear.
The animator was then able touse that.
And that was our younger group.
So the artists were, you know,seven, eight years old.
So still pretty young, but itwas actually really cool to see
what they drew and then how theprofessional illustrator was
able to interpret that and makeit this, this quality cartoon
product that we realized, oh,that's actually an even better.
(21:06):
Start introduction to youngpeople into the world of the
arts because they're alreadywatching cartoons in their free
time.
Anyways, that's what they'rewatching on YouTube and they're
and they're streaming platforms.
And so then we're able to usethat as a sort of a hook of, Oh,
well, how do you think theseartists are able to act
effectively?
A lot of them have theatertraining.
(21:27):
That's why they have such greatvoices.
And that's why they're able to,to utilize their voices in a way
that.
authentically portrays thecharacters because of that, that
theater training.
And so it unintentionally just,it keeps evolving.
The program keeps evolving andI'm looking forward to seeing
where it goes by 2025.
Who knows?
Because I never would havepredicted animation being a part
(21:47):
of it, but I think I'm lookingforward to just seeing where it
continues to grow.
Rosanita (21:53):
I have to say like, I love listening to all this, not
just as the, a teacher, But justas a community member, listening
to what's available to kids andyour excitement about it and
how, you know, you're like,okay, we still want to keep this
(22:13):
program going.
What can we do?
How can we still, you know,engage with our students and
then instead of just going, youknow.
We'll hold a writer's workshoponline.
You're like, somebody mentionedanimation.
I know we're going to go withthat and we're going to just
turn it into what you did.
Emilio (22:34):
Oh, yes.
Thank you.
Rosanita (22:36):
Yeah, the question is, can we find the finished
products online somewhere?
Emilio (22:43):
Yes, thank you for mentioning that.
I keep forgetting to plug that,but they're all on YouTube.
So they're all on our YouTubechannel.
If you type in Black and BrownTheater on YouTube, just make
sure you spell theater.
You will be able to see all ofthe animation from the stories
that the students wrote.
And you'll also be able toaccess some of our, not all, but
some of our plays that wererecorded during.
(23:03):
COVID times, the ones that wehad funding to record, and
there's also, we did an adultArt Voices through the Ann Arbor
Community Foundation, which wasspecifically working with
Ypsilanti seniors.
So we definitely work with allages.
That's why we like to reallyconsider all ages.
ourselves a family companybecause it's everyone is a part
of the family, but the seniorsgot to write their own stories
(23:27):
and direct their own stories.
And those were filmed becausethat was during the peak of
COVID, they were two personcasts, but it was actually.
Really exciting to see what youcan do with just two people and
how you can tell a story.
And we also got to work withfour different videographers for
that project.
So we could see all thedifferent ways in which local
(23:48):
artists would interpret thatprompt of how do we.
capture a play that someonewrote, a short play that someone
wrote, but how do we blur thelines?
Does it look more like a film?
Does it look more like we'refilming a play?
Are we filming it on set?
And everyone had a differentinterpretation of that prompt.
Um, and they're all, uh, on theYouTube channel that people can
(24:09):
watch and, and see which, whichway they liked it, interpreted
the best.
Rosanita (24:15):
Okay, so I know where to subscribe next going back to
the kids for a minute with doingthe our voices program and
working specifically with thekids and, you know, kind of
where they come in and wherethey go.
When they graduate from theprogram, what kind of growth do
(24:36):
you see?
Not just in terms of like, theircomprehension, but did it like,
you know, I guess, social,emotional growth.
And do you measure do youformally measure that?
of, uh, wow, like we've s Yes,
Emilio (24:52):
I would love to sit who had a little bit more to measure
it.
That's som looking for becausewe do drafts, which gives us a
Objective way to measure growthand also the growth of their
products.
Like first design to last designis something that we use, but
(25:15):
then there's also differentthings like confidence that
we're still looking for a way ofhow do we, formally quantify
that or do qualitative researchthat demonstrates that bit.
That's one thing that we see alot of too, and it depends how
long the program goes becausesometimes the program can be as
short.
(25:35):
We do sometimes 90 minuteworkshops, but then we also have
six week workshops, and we alsohave eight week workshops, and
we also have Full semester,depending on how much funding we
have and how long the school isenabling us to work with the
students.
Like when we did it withMumford, we had a full semester
with them and we basically camein right after the juniors had a
(25:57):
S.
A.
T.
prep class, I think, and theytook their S.
A.
T.
and like April, but the classwas until June.
So.
They were like, you have therest of the school year to, to
try this out.
But yeah, so definitely we seemore growth, the longer it goes.
But like you mentioned, we areable to see on the page, that
growth in writing for thestudents who go the writing
(26:18):
route on the page, we're able tosee the design growth and the
ways in which they're able tocloser retext.
Cause in the beginning you see adesign.
It's just like, oh, this lookscool.
I want to draw Sonic theHedgehog.
But then in the end you see, oh,okay.
Based off of what's in thestory, what's in the text, this
is the character that I actuallyhave to design.
It has to look different thanSonic, because the story is not
(26:40):
about Sonic, so I can't justdraw Sonic.
But then, yeah, the other one Iwould want to figure out a
better way to measure would bethe confidence, because seeing
the students In the beginning,who are very shy and very few
words.
And then in the end, we see themable to fully defend their
story, defend their characterchoices, defend their design
(27:02):
choices, be able to say why theydidn't earn, did, did or did not
include something based off ofthe text.
And, and that's the growth thatI think is, is really exciting.
And also the collaborativeelement too.
I think group projects aresometimes a thing that is very
hit or miss.
I remember when I was doinggroup projects as a student,
sometimes it would feel like I'mdoing all the work.
(27:24):
But with theater, we get tolearn about how it's so
important that everyone hastheir own part.
And when everyone does theirpart, Then no one's doing all
the work, but we're allcollaboratively working together
to make the best show possible,which I think is just innately a
part of theater that I wishthere was a better qualitative
or quantitative way to measureit so that people could see how
(27:48):
transformational just theater ingeneral is in the collaborative,
social, emotional setting, butparticularly with this project
with each student being in therole that best fits them.
So, yes, you love to sketch inyour notebook.
That means you are a perfect,yeah.
Costume designer.
You can do a great rendering.
And yes, you're great withwords.
So maybe you're a writer andmaybe you're confident in
speaking.
You can be included on stagewith the adult actors and you
(28:11):
are someone who really looks atdifferent color schemes, but you
don't draw as well, but you loveto.
thinking about the ways thatcolors go together.
Maybe you're our lightingdesigner.
Oh, you're someone who loveslistening to music and you're
always able to think aboutsound.
You are our sound designer.
You can pick all the songs thatgo in between every show that
we're going to present.
So that way it flows naturally.
(28:32):
It has one cohesive tone, but italso makes sense with not only
the show that's before, but theshow that's after.
So you have to pick a song thatwould make sense in both of
those stories to transition us.
So I always think of like theclassic Jack Black scene from
School of Rock where he's like,Oh, you can play the cello.
(28:52):
The bass is kind of like acello, cello, you know, and he's
assigning all the parts to allthe kids.
That's, that's how we feel aboutour voices and like in the
perfect world, it's like takingthe strengths that the kids
already have.
But, um, Exemplifying them andthen realizing that when each
kid has their strength andthey're able to, to sharpen
(29:14):
that, it actually helps theirreading skills because
ultimately it all comes down toa play that we are working on.
So those reading and writingskills are also benefiting
because it gives a purpose toreading.
It's not just read because wetold you to, it's read because
you're going to, when you readthis, you're going to be able to
showcase your own skills in away that In doing something that
(29:35):
you enjoy, you love listening tomusic, so you have to read these
plays so that you can show toeveryone else why you are so
great at picking music and musicthat will take us through all of
these stories.
Rosanita (29:47):
When I hear that, I'm kind of just listening to your
grant application right now.
Narrative, right?
Which takes me to another point,which is Are there grants for
art organizations to do that?
Or do you have to go into theeducation realm?
Like, how would you go abouttrying to find a grant for
(30:07):
something like that?
Emilio (30:10):
Yes, we have been so fortunate to work a lot with the
Ann Arbor area communityfoundation.
They have been 1 of our biggestsupporters, particularly for
that program.
They funded the senior program.
They funded the program withthe.
The students in Ypsi, so theywere a huge resource and the
first ones to give us asubstantial amount of money to
enable us to do the program and,and really believe in us and
(30:33):
invest in us.
Rosanita (30:34):
But outside of them,
Emilio (30:37):
Yeah, most of it has been through community
foundations or through artsfoundations.
Sometimes a school or auniversity is able to promote
it.
A university is able to pay forit for a high school or for a
elementary school that they'reworking with.
Yeah.
Most of our funding has beenthrough arts organizations and I
(30:57):
would love to investigate andsee how do we get funding
through the education sector?
How do we get funding throughUniversity of Michigan or
Eastern to bring us to theschools or Wayne State to bring
us to Detroit schools because Ithink there is so much money,
especially in higher education.
And they're also very interestedin the K through 12 programming
(31:20):
that creates the next generationof, of critical thinkers.
But yeah, for us, it's justsometimes hard to even Get that
1st meeting where we talk aboutwhat that program looks like and
how it's mutually beneficial.
Rosanita (31:34):
Really?
Even though you've been doingthis, that's the 7th year.
Emilio (31:40):
Yes.
We're going into the 7th year inOctober.
Rosanita (31:43):
Yeah.
So I guess around the 5 to 7year mark, you're established.
Nonprofit, right?
Like, you're no longer just anemerging 1 and, you know, I
guess in my naivety, David, hey,it's that I would think it'd be
easier now to get an appointmentthan when you 1st started.
(32:06):
But I'm just an outsider, so Ihave no idea.
Emilio (32:10):
I think it varies because, yeah, the arts
organizations and the communityfoundations that wouldn't even
have responded to a letter ofinquiry to us in year two, now
we can set up meetings and wecan get funding.
But sometimes the Educationrealm, because we don't directly
interact with a lot of thedecision makers in the education
(32:33):
realm.
They are not familiar with usorganization.
Even when we do the programmingin the schools, oftentimes we're
directly connecting withprincipals or even teachers,
sometimes our direct connection.
And so the decision makers whodecide who to give funding to
sometimes.
Have no interaction with us andno, no knowledge of even the
(32:55):
programming that we did in theirschools, which is unfortunate
and something that I would loveto see change.
But I think slowly, but surely,we are developing more and more
relationships with the decisionmakers of the schools and that's
what's going to allow us to workwith more schools in the future.
Rosanita (33:11):
Do you think that's just kind of more of just the
natural progression where whenyou're first getting started?
And you're typically are talkingwith somebody who's who you're
directly going to work with.
And then as time goes on, it'sokay.
Now, you're no longer stucktalking with the teacher.
Then it's the principal thenit's, you know, 1 at office is
(33:34):
that just kind of.
a natural progression?
Emilio (33:38):
I think so, because I think in the beginning, so many
people are scared to take thatrisk, because what if this
program goes wrong?
How does that make the schoollook?
What if a child doesn't have agood time with this program?
What if multiple children have anegative experience with this
program?
what we're And, and so Iunderstand the, the risk element
for a school, if it's workingwith a organization that, you
(34:01):
know, nothing about, you have noreferences who can speak to what
the organization will look likeor what their work will look
like.
So, yeah, I completelyunderstand the hesitation and
the fear of, of jumping into anew program.
But yeah, I think what you said,there's like a natural
progression as you start workingwith more schools that.
(34:21):
Those other schools become yourreference.
And that's actually whathappened to one of the schools
we work with or the programs wework with, with bright futures
and Ypsilanti first, it was likeone or two sites that we, we'd
reached out to all of theirsites.
Who wants to work with us?
We have a grant.
We'll come to any one of you.
And then only one or two sitestook us up on that.
And then the next year we werelike, well, we don't have
(34:43):
funding.
And they were like, But we do,we can contract you guys to come
as artists.
And then it sort of built fromthere.
And I think by the end of thepast two years, we've been at, I
want to say nine or 10 of theirsites now when it started off
with two.
So, Yes, it takes a while, butit's kind of nice that it
(35:04):
happens organically because we,we really build that trust and
that excitement instead of ushaving to tell the sites.
This is what we can do for you.
They're reaching out to us nowand saying, we heard great
things from this site and thissite.
So we want you to come to oursite now.
Rosanita (35:19):
I want to switch gears a little bit because we spent
the majority of the time talkingabout the school program
because, you know, it'sfantastic and necessary and make
such an impact and truly that inthe programming for kids is how
I had 1st heard about the blackand brown.
(35:40):
Theater, you guys had done aproduction at, I think, the
Michigan theater and a friend ofmine had taken her daughter and
her little girl just fell inlove and, you know, went
backstage and got to meet theactors and actresses and it's
magical for a little kid.
Right?
And so that's how I, I first mether.
(36:01):
Heard about you guys, and itseems like that's kind of more
of the productions that you guysdo here in Ann Arbor, but back
to that Internet sleuthing you.
I know that you, you put on andyou sponsor and promote other.
More adult topics as well,right?
Emilio (36:21):
Yes.
So we have a variety.
We are definitely leaningtowards more family friendly
programming.
It doesn't always have to bespecifically focused on, on
kids, but definitely we do likethe idea of a program that does
feel family friendly, but familyfriendly can also be
challenging.
That's some of my most memorableprogramming going up was seeing
(36:42):
programming that was gearedtowards families, but it was
able to challenge.
The way in which you think or totake on harder subjects in
engaging ways.
I remember the, the Disneychannel movie color friendship,
which was so beautifully doneand talking about prejudices
and, and stereotypes anddifferent expectations.
(37:03):
And the belief that two peoplewho have different experiences
can't come together.
And, and that movie shows you sobeautifully that they can, but
you have to actively work toovercome your biases.
And I think what's exciting nowis that we're able to delve more
into that work that ischallenging, but still
purposeful and still a part ofshaping the next generation and
(37:25):
also helping families have thoseconversations.
So our last show we did EdmundAllen Jones was our playwright,
and Asia Mark who works withMosaic was our director.
And they created a wonder andcamera Graham, who was a EMU
recently and you graduate allcollaborated together on a, a
play about MLK.
That was our assignment.
(37:46):
But our assignment from thelibrary was a library had
funded.
It was.
Give us something beyond I havea dream.
Everyone knows that everyone'sfamiliar with that.
How can you go deeper?
And I kudos to Edmund for thetaking on that challenge of
writing the play in a very shortamount of time and Asian and
Cameron for bringing it to life,but that.
(38:06):
Play was, you know, took on someideas that some people might not
feel are right for families orchildren, like talking about
being arrested and serving timein jail.
But that brings up the, thesystemic issues, right?
And the systemic problems that,you know, We lived in a world
(38:28):
where speaking againstinjustices was a crime.
And so now we have the freedomto to speak up against
injustices.
And it's something that weshouldn't take for granted
because 50 years ago, peoplewere in prison just for speaking
up and saying, this is notright.
And, and I think that, um,Having that mix of content is
really interesting, too, becauseit allows families to make the
(38:51):
decision for themselves of whatwhat one of our experiences are
right for your child.
If you have a 5 year old, Iwould say the MLK show might not
be the best place to start, butthe princess show might be a
really great.
touch point for them.
And then as your kids progress,or if you have kids at different
age ranges, maybe your 12 yearold would be a great person to
take to the MLK show and learn alittle bit more about history in
(39:14):
an exciting and engaging waythat enables them to have
conversations with your familyafter the show.
Oh, wow.
I didn't realize it was likethat.
I didn't realize that this wassomething that we learned about
in history as if it was, youknow, like, History was ages ago
and it's like, Oh no, they werealive when grandma was alive.
So having those, those takeawaysand that variety of programming
(39:36):
is, is what's important to us.
And I think, you know, peoplealways say variety is the spice
of life.
And I think variety is whatmakes a company that focuses on
BIPOC artists so valuable sothat we're not.
ever pigeonholed into BIPOCartists can only do one thing.
BIPOC artists can only dohistory plays or BIPOC artists
(39:56):
can only do plays about socialjustice.
It's BIPOC artists can doeverything.
We can have plays that arehistorical, we can have plays
that are on social issues, andwe can have plays that are just
a princess living her bestprincess life.
All of the above because we alllike all of those things as
BIPOC human beings.
(40:17):
We want to see ourselvesrepresented in all of those
spaces.
We want to have conversationswith people about all of those
things.
And we enjoy all of those thingsbecause we are fully three
dimensional human beings whodeal with inequities and social
injustices, but also love tohave fun and hang out with our
family and friends and just becarefree sometimes.
Rosanita (40:37):
You mentioned it was a collaborative effort between
people from different, you know,like, you have the, the young
woman from Eastern, someone frommosaic.
Did they come to you with the,the idea?
Or was it like a call forsubmissions?
How does that work?
Emilio (40:55):
Yes, so, uh, librarian had just reached out to, to
black and brown theater and wesaid, okay, with this prompt and
then we sat down and we said,okay.
Okay.
Who from our networks, um,because we had such a short
amount of time, we knew that weweren't going to be able to do a
call for submissions as we wouldlike to do if we had like maybe
a year warning, but we had likethree months.
(41:16):
So if we put out a call forsubmission and give people a
month to respond, then we havetwo months to make the project
come together.
So with those three months, wesaid we have to.
Make the offers today so thatpeople have three months to work
on this project.
And we just started lookingthrough our contacts.
Who have we worked with before?
Who have we worked with onsmaller projects that we would
like to try a bigger projectwith?
(41:37):
So Edmund had worked with us asan actor and he had kept
expressing to us that he was awriter and he had sent us some
scripts that we weren't able toalign with what we were doing at
that time, but we saw hispotential as a writer.
And so we thought this is aperfect way for him to try on a
new challenge and also showcasehis writing skills and then
(41:57):
Cameron, he had just done a showwith us as an actor, or I
directed him in a show that Iwas doing at matrix theater
company separate from black andbrown.
But he was such an incredibleactor and was so great at
getting off book and learninghis lines in such a quick
timeframe.
And he actually learned hisscene partners lines as well,
(42:17):
too.
So he was like in Dolly Partonmode where he's memorizing the
whole script.
And so we were like, okay, he isthe perfect actor for this
process.
And then.
When we were looking atdirectors, we were thinking, Oh,
we right now have a maleplaywright and a male actor
who's going to do a one manshow.
This is really something we canstart thinking about.
(42:39):
How do we incorporate women'svoices in this project?
And if it's not going to bethrough the writing and through
the acting, it still needs to bein a leadership position.
And then we started thinkingabout the director.
Who are the directors we want?
And we had worked with Asia on afive minute play that she had
directed through a collaborationwith Mosaic.
And we said, all right, she'sour perfect person for this with
(43:02):
her experiences to work in ashort time frame and really help
actors bring out Um, differentcharacters and utilize different
parts of their voices, which wasso important for a one person
script because Cameron was gonnahave to play multiple
characters.
So Asia was the perfect personto help him really utilize all
of his voice and all of his bodyto become those different
(43:23):
characters.
Rosanita (43:25):
For those who don't know, what's Mosaic?
Emilio (43:28):
Oh, yes.
So Mosaic is a wonderful theatercompany, a youth theater
company, and it focusesspecifically on training middle
and high school age students inboth acting and singing.
So they have a singing program,which is like a choir that the
students work on, on theirsinging abilities, singing
harmony, learning differentsongs, musical theater songs,
(43:49):
classic songs.
All the repertory and then theirtheater program is for the
actors.
And so they, they take on avariety of projects as well.
And they do different scriptsand different plays that help
them develop their skills asactors.
And they also have a techprogram as well.
So their young people learn howto do lighting design and stage
management and all of theelements needed for theater.
Rosanita (44:12):
And is this based in the Metro Detroit area?
Emilio (44:16):
Yes.
Mosaic Youth Theater of Detroit.
They are actually based in aDetroit school, University Prep.
And they basically have theafter school hours to work with
the students.
Rosanita (44:29):
This seems like a great spot to, stop part.
One of our interview with EmilioRodriguez.
We'll have to continue this nextweek.
Thank you for joining us forpart one of my interview with
Emilio Rodriguez.
In part two, we'll explore howthe Black and Brown Theater
(44:49):
secures its funding and delveinto the challenges and
successes they've experienced.
Make sure to tune in for thecontinuation of this insightful
conversation.
Thanks for listening and see younext time on Behind the Curtain.
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