October 24, 2024 • 32 mins
Explore the riveting world of spiritual warfare and exorcism as we welcome back the ever-insightful John DiGirolamo to Behind the Mike Podcast with Mike Stone.
Discover the evolution of exorcism rituals and practices from his latest book, "It's Not About the Devil," where John shares exclusive insights from interviews with the co-author of a training manual for exorcists. Dive into the intricacies of how exorcisms have become more formalized and standardized in response to rising demands, with a thorough vetting process involving mental and physical evaluations, and learn about the power of Christ working through exorcists in these complex cases.
Our discussion unravels the risks and misunderstandings surrounding occult practices like Ouija boards and witchcraft, emphasizing the importance of recognizing demons' observational nature and their ultimate goal to distance us from divine love. John's perspective sheds light on the fact that not all challenges are demonic in nature, but personal decisions play a significant role. By strengthening our relationship with God, we can navigate spiritual challenges more effectively, resisting the devil's attempts to veer us away from our path of faith and service.
As we wrap up this captivating episode, John offers hope and strategies for maintaining a strong spiritual life to defend against diabolic influences. He encourages listeners to invoke the armor of God for protection, emphasizing the role of prayer, church involvement, and avoidance of the occult. We’re incredibly grateful to John for sharing his knowledge and urge our audience to seek out further insights in his book series. For those yearning for guidance in their spiritual journey, John's thought-provoking perspectives provide a comprehensive understanding of modern evil and the spiritual battles we face.
#catholicchurch #exorcist #halloween #spiritualwarfare #foryou #occult
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00:00 Welcome and Recap of Previous Episodes
01:06 Introduction to John's Latest Book
02:18 Understanding Exorcism and Spiritual Warfare
04:07 The Process and Challenges of Exorcism
08:01 The Influence of Demons and Modern Society
09:26 Dangers of Occult Practices
13:31 Understanding Demonic Knowledge
15:11 The Spiritual Realm and Its Influence
17:53 The Devil's Long Game
20:20 Exorcism: Myths and Realities
24:25 Can Christians Be Possessed?
26:18 Final Thoughts and Resources
God, doubt, and proof walk into a podcast... it goes better than you’d expect!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, welcome back to Behind the Mic Podcast.
We are here once again withJohn DiGirolamo and if you
missed the last two episodes, westarted out first of the series
(00:23):
talking about online predatorsAbsolutely have to go back and
listen to that if you missed it.
There's so much greatinformation that John gave us
about the research that he'sdone on that.
And then the last episode, wetalked about the pro-life issue.
That we said is not a politicalissue, because it's really not.
It's about the value of lifeand we really want you to listen
(00:47):
to that as well.
Whether you are for or against,we want you to listen and glean
from a little bit of the wisdomthat John found in talking to
the doctor.
That was in his latest book,which is called it's Not About
the Devil.
John, welcome back to the show.
I thank you for doing theseries with us.
Again, for those who are justjoining us for the first time,
(01:08):
can you tell us who you are andreally briefly about your book
and what it is?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Sure, yeah, it's great to be back.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
So my latest book is calledit's Not About the Devil, and so
it's people who are fightingmodern evil.
And who's the ultimate predator?
Well, that's Satan, and Satan'sjob is to corrupt our souls,
(01:33):
and so this book deals with theinsider's view of what happens
in an exorcism.
I interviewed the guy whoco-wrote the manual, the
training manual for Exorcists,and so I feel like I've really
got the you know, the real scoopfor the readers, and it's all
(01:54):
told in a story, so there's aplot line, but all of the truth
and the training and all thethings that happen is all
revealed through storylines,action, dialogue, emotions, etc.
So it reads like a fast-pacedfiction novel, even though it's
all based on real case files ofan exorcist.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Wow, I think tackling that exorcism and spiritual
warfare is really what we'retalking about.
Spiritual warfare Right.
It would definitely heighten mysense of spirituality, the Holy
Spirit within me.
I would be leaning heavily onthe Holy Spirit in researching
this.
So I have to first ask so thisresearch was done through
(02:42):
someone who wrote the Guide toExorcism Talk a little bit about
what that is.
That sounds interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, so in the old days the exorcist would
essentially find an apprenticeto train and train them on what
they needed to do, them on whatthey needed to do.
But now that's become a littlebit more formalized process
because the church is getting alot more requests and so we're
seeing a rise in that, and theyneeded to really make sure there
(03:16):
was consistency andstandardization of what an
exorcist needs to know and howthey need to do that.
And so they wrote a trainingmanual and I interviewed the
person who co-wrote it.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Wow, that's interesting and I'm sure that
you probably learned an awfullot about spiritual warfare and
exorcism in this whole sectionof your book, which I want to
get into as well toward the end.
We'll make sure people know howto get a hold of this, because
you're not just getting thestory about exorcism, you're
(03:49):
getting the story about theculture of death in our society
and you're also getting theonline predator story, so really
, this is like three stories inone book, so make sure you get a
hold of that.
We'll talk about that towardthe end.
But, john, what did you learnin this study with on this
research, with the section ofthe story?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, I really wrote this for the non-expert.
So I look at myself at thebeginning of this process and
the only thing I knew was thingsthat I may have seen in movies
and just other articles, thingslike that.
It's not something that reallya lot of people talk about but
get sensationalized by Hollywood.
(04:34):
So I learned a lot of thingsabout what goes into that, and
the big picture is that thedevil is really busy and will
take advantage of a personwhenever they can, and you know
so.
The demons are fallen angels,right, they fell from grace
(04:56):
because they rejected God andthey really hate humans, hate
humans.
So their entire goal is tocorrupt our souls, to get us
into sin, get us into rejectingGod, and so that's the framework
.
They're busy trying to do this,but when it comes to a
(05:19):
possession where an exorcism isrequired, that is, it's pretty
rare.
There's a lot of other thingsthat demons can influence our
lives in diabolic affliction,but a possession is actually
pretty rare and it's a longprocess.
It's rarely a one and done andin the afternoon throw a little
(05:43):
holy water on somebody and callit a day.
That's not what happens.
It can take months and there'sa vetting process.
Many times it's a mental healthissue or a physical issue.
Before anyone even sees anexorcist, they're getting a full
mental evaluation, physicalevaluation.
(06:04):
That's something I'd neverheard of before.
So the church takes this veryseriously, this vetting process,
and so I think that's kind ofone of the surprises that I
learned.
The other thing is that theexorcist doesn't have any power.
(06:24):
They're invoking all the powerof Christ, and so that's really
important.
Where an exorcist will tell youit's not me, it's Christ
working through that exorcist.
So that's another reallyimportant factor.
But one of the other bigsurprises was was if the person
(06:46):
doesn't want the demon to leave,the demon won't.
Now I know the audience isprobably saying wait a minute.
Why would anybody not want ademon to leave if they're
afflicting them or they'reactually possessed?
And the reason is that if theperson is so attached to their
(07:12):
sin or however they got intothis situation, if they're so
attached to that that theyprefer that to the power of
Christ, the demon won't leave.
The demon is there becausethey've been invited in somehow,
(07:33):
and there's many ways that thatcan happen.
But if they don't want that, uh, that demon to leave because
they're so attached to that,then no matter what the exorcist
priest uh will do, doesn'tmatter that demon's not going to
leave, and that was kind of asurprise when I heard that from
multiple experts.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Wow, yeah, I guess I hadn't ever thought about it,
but it kind of makes sense thatI believe.
You know, god is not going toforce himself on us.
We're not robots.
He's not going to tell us thatwe have to follow him.
We don't really want that.
That's not freedom, and I wouldthink it would kind of be the
(08:13):
same way for Satan and demons isthat they want to be invited.
I think personally and you cancorrect me if I'm wrong because
you know a lot more about thisthan I do, but I think
personally you said it's rare Ithink Satan can do just as much,
if not more, damage withoutpossessing someone, absolutely,
(08:35):
just by spreading that.
You know we've talked aboutdepression and anxiety and
suicidal thoughts.
I think those are probablypretty effective for most people
.
So I think that answers myquestion as to why we don't see
more possessions.
Am I even close on that?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, that's true.
The devil is very active.
He doesn't have to possess usto ruin our lives, so to speak.
It can be through temptation,it can be believing lies that
you know God doesn't mocked bypoliticians, celebrities, media,
etc.
You know God has left thepublic square, has left the
(09:41):
schools, and what's going tofill that void?
Well, it's not going to besomething good.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, yeah, amen, and I guess I have lots of
questions.
This could be a very longepisode.
We'll keep it normal.
So, you know, we've heard, Ithink as Christians growing up
in the church, I've heard thingslike stay away from Ouija
boards, stay away fromhoroscopes, stay away from, you
know, ouija boards, stay awayfrom horoscopes, stay away from
(10:12):
you know.
Now I see what pornography cando to destroy not just one
person but an entire family andeven beyond that.
Are we opening ourselves up toSatan and demons just by simply
looking at horoscopes or playingon?
You know, I think it's I don'twant to say the company, because
I'm not sure and I don't wantto degrade the other one, but
there's a game out there.
Basically it's in the gamesection a Ouija board.
(10:33):
Are we opening ourselves upmore so to demonic activity with
those things?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah.
So the quick answer is yes, butlet me give you the background
as to why that's it.
The answer is yes.
So if you invite God into yourlife, he is going to respond.
If you invite a demon into yourlife, well, he's going to
respond too.
Now, how do you invite a demonand why would anyone want to do
(11:01):
that?
Well, if you look at the occultpractices, what is the occult
trying to do?
It's trying to get power andknowledge that isn't ours to get
.
It isn't available in thenatural world.
So if you're trying to conjureup power and knowledge, that's
(11:25):
not coming from God, it's comingfrom a fallen angel, it's
coming from a demon.
So you mentioned Ouija boards.
Well, what is the point of aOuija board?
To get this sort of forbiddenknowledge that we normally would
not want to do?
So Ouija boards and otheroccult practices, horoscopes,
(11:48):
things like that for sure canopen the door, as well as
witchcraft, especially Now.
I'm not telling your listenersthat if you played with a Ouija
board at a group of kids incollege 20 years ago, that all
of a sudden you're going to getdemonic oppression.
(12:09):
That's not what I'm saying.
But, like any other risk, themore that you engage in that
risk, the more likely thatyou're going to have negative
consequences.
So if you're trying to conjureup power, say from witchcraft,
which is now a growingphenomenon, you look up witches
of TikTok and you will see tensof millions of views, and
(12:33):
especially with kind of youngadult women, we're seeing a rise
in witchcraft.
And what is that all about?
A lot of it is casting spellsand you're trying to conjure
power that is not yours to get.
It's not coming from God.
Therefore, the only other placeit's coming from is those dark
(12:54):
forces.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Now, john, I've also heard that you know we're
talking about fortune telling,we're talking about tea leaves,
we're talking about any of thoseoccultic, witchcraft type
things, even to the Ouija board,even as a kid's game, which is
just crazy to me that it's onthe listing of a game.
(13:19):
I've heard that Satan does nothave.
God is all-knowing, satan isnot, and I've heard that
anything that Satan revealsabout you is only because he's
verified that by being around us.
Does that make sense, if I'masking that correctly, that he's
(13:40):
not all-knowing and thatanything that he brings up is
something that you've said orsomething that he knows from
conversation that we have?
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah, so demons don't fight fair, so that's something
we need to remember.
And they, like angels, areinfused with knowledge when they
were created.
But demons, as well as angelsand humans, can learn through
observation.
(14:10):
So when they you know, tell youthings that they shouldn't know,
or or you know in a seance orfortune telling or something
like that.
It's because they've learnedthrough observation and they're
waiting for that moment when youmight be vulnerable, when you
might be tempted.
And so I think you'reabsolutely right is they've
(14:34):
gained this through observationof our behavior.
And you know, demons move atthe speed of thought.
They can be anywhere anytime.
They're not in a physical world, they're in a spiritual world
only, which means they're notconstricted by distance and
(14:54):
miles and things like that.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah.
So I think the reason I askedthat question is because if
you've ever been involved inanything and you say I hear what
you're saying but there's noway that that person could have
told me this it is demonic.
But the demons and Satanhimself don't have that all
(15:19):
powerful knowledge that God doesand that, just because
something was done, it's nodifferent than somebody
listening to this conversationand then going to one of us and
telling us something that theywould have only heard from here.
Really bad analogy, but reallyI think that we need to
understand that so that whenwe're in situations, or if you
(15:39):
have been in situations likethat and you go but they told me
something or they did somethingthat no way could they have
ever known otherwise, or theydid something that no way could
they have ever known otherwise,we have to be.
I think I said it in the firstepisode we have to be wise as
serpents and gentle as doves,and there's a lot that God has
to say in His Word about thepower of the enemy and I, I
(16:02):
think, in situations where youtalked about seances too, I
think, when we open ourselves upto that, I don't think we're
going to walk away and bepossessed or visibly controlled
by a demon.
I think that, again, I think itgoes back to this gradual kind
of nudging and poking andprodding and saying do you
(16:23):
really—and Satan said this inthe garden, did God really say
that?
And making you questioneverything about God.
So I think I'd love to hearyour thoughts on that.
But I think that we really dojust need to understand how the
spiritual realm works and beaware of it.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, you know the devil wants you to move farther
away from God.
That's kind of the bottom line.
And how do they do that?
They want to convince you thatGod doesn't exist, god doesn't
love you, you don't need God.
You can make up your own rules.
(17:04):
You can make up your own rulesand you should pursue things in
your own self best interest.
Yet we know that biblical valuesfocus on service to others,
sacrifice.
You know, loving loving others,wanting the best for others,
loving others, wanting the bestfor others.
(17:25):
And so if you are moving awayfrom God, that's eventually
going to be problematic.
That may or may not haveanything to do with demonic
activity.
Let's face it Most of the timewe're our own worst enemy.
We're our own choosing of thewrong path.
Many times we have no one elseto blame from ourselves.
(17:49):
So I definitely don't want yourlisteners to think that there's
a demon around every corner andyou know every time something
pops into their head, it's ademon talking to them, because a
lot of times it's our own worstenemy.
So that's definitely somethingto keep in mind, that our goal
should be to strive to be closerand closer to God every day,
(18:14):
every month, every year, etc.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, I love that.
And that brings to mindsomething I heard from a couple
of pastors over the years, andthat is when we talk about sin
in our lives or things that gowrong in our lives, they can
point it to three things.
It's either Satan, it's eitherGod correcting, or it's us, and
those are the three entities atwork God, us or Satan.
(18:42):
And a lot of times I think wegive Satan more credit than what
he deserves because a lot ofthe times and you just said it a
lot of the times it's just usmaking poor decisions, making
bad choices, and those thingscan take years to reconcile.
Yeah, really good stuff, John.
What surprised you most out ofthis whole knowledge, experience
(19:05):
that you had in this research,most out of this whole knowledge
?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
experience that you had in this research.
Is there anything that standsout to you?
Yeah, I think that you knowjust that the devil is real and
he's really busy and he's activeand the devil plays the long
game.
You know, he may be looking foran opportunity when you're 50
years old, not when you're 18years old.
(19:30):
That's right, and so he's goingto look for those
vulnerabilities, for the timewhen you're mad at God for some
reason because something badhappened in your life, and he's
going to try to take advantageof that.
You know, possession is rare.
You know that's where the storyis, but the story is broader of
that.
You know possession is rare.
You know that's where the storyis, but the story is broader
(19:50):
than that.
It talks about somebody who isin habitual sin, had a, you know
, a girlfriend who was in theoccult, also participated in the
occult, and so the story goesthrough some of these dangers
and also you know how thisperson was attached to their sin
(20:13):
and how they finally, you know,were able to break free.
And that can be reallyinspirational because you know
most of the time, you know, weknow what we've done.
That's wrong, but we did itanyways, and maybe the devil was
putting a little, you know,temptation in our ear.
But let's face it, god gave usfree will and so you know,
(20:50):
breaking free of those badhabits is what we all need to do
, and I think reading the storyand seeing how this person did
that and how you know whathappened before, during and
after an exorcism is a big partof the story and you know, I
interviewed somebody who waspossessed and I asked them what
goes through your head when youknow that you're in that
situation, and so that's woveninto the plot line and I think
(21:12):
it makes it really interesting.
And you know, I tell peoplethis story is not
sensationalized, but that makesit even more powerful.
You know there are some thingsthat Hollywood gets right, such
as holy water and the effects ofthat on somebody who's
possessed, and so you'll see thethings that are true that
(21:34):
Hollywood gets right, but italso dispels a lot of the
sensationalized stuff.
So I think that that's a bigpart of the story as well.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
John, at least one more question I have to ask you.
In all of this you mentionedearlier about going through this
process before someone performsan exorcism, counseling and
things like that.
Is it mental health?
So tell us, what does that looklike?
I think we go back to theExorcist and, like you said,
(22:10):
countless horror movies fromHollywood and we have
preconceived ideas of what apossessed person looks like.
I would imagine if you thinkabout the famous scene of the
little girl in the bed duringthe Exorcist, how do you take
someone like that to a counselor?
My question then, with thatthought process, is does it look
(22:34):
like that all the time?
If someone is possessed, arethey at times worse than others?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So you bring up a good point,because what Hollywood is
showing in a movie like that inthat scene, is when the demon is
what they call manifestingitself, where there may be
speaking foreign languages,they're having superhuman
strength that a child or a 90pound woman shouldn't have.
(23:02):
Things like that.
And that happens a lot duringthe exorcism rite, when certain
prayers are being recited, wherecertain holy relics are being
shown to that person.
But when that's not happening,the person may be completely in
(23:25):
charge of their faculties andcan have a normal conversation.
So the Hollywood scenes is notwhat that person's going through
, hour after hour, day after day.
It's really only when they'regoing through the exorcism right
, which is why many times ittakes months, sometimes years,
(23:46):
for it to happen.
And they can.
You know the exorcist it's avery grueling process.
They can only do it for acouple of hours at a time, and
so those other times, beforethey're even getting to that
point, they're going to getvetted.
There's going to be a lot ofquestions about the background
(24:09):
of this person and really tryingto figure out if there is a
demon there, why, what happened,how did they get invited in,
and only until the exorcist canfigure that out?
Can they really figure out whatto do next and kind of how to
deal with that situation?
There's a lot of people who tryto fake it.
(24:32):
There's a lot of people who mayhave bipolar or schizophrenia
or things like that.
That can look like it's reallydiabolic affliction, but but is
not so they're.
They're very careful about, youknow, getting someone in in the
(24:56):
room with an exorcist and witha team.
There's usually five or sixother people there praying,
helping out, praying, helpingout.
It's never somebody alone, andso I can just say that all the
ones that I've interviewedreally talked about a pretty
strong vetting process.
Of the hundred people that cometo them, maybe 1% are really
(25:24):
truly possessed them.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You know, maybe 1% are really, truly possessed.
Wow, well, I would say in theend, life is hard as a believer,
but it could be much worse.
I would say follow Christ.
If you have doubts, boy, seekhim out.
Because I think in what you'retalking about, in just maybe
that 1%, that very small amountof people who are actually
possessed.
We don't want to go there.
(25:53):
And it does prove, as you said,satan is real.
I think, if anything else thatyou take from this, satan is
real and if Satan's real,certainly there's a God who is
real and that God loves you andthat God wants to spend eternity
with you.
John, a question that probablyeverybody listening and watching
(26:15):
is asking themselves right nowcan a Christian be possessed?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yes, yes, yeah, um, you know, having um it it and it
depends on on an invitationthat that that person may have
done through the occult, throughhabitual sin, um, there there
can be things such as um, youknow somebody who who has, uh,
(26:45):
was consecrated to Satan as achild and and there could be
underlying factors there.
And so you know, really thebest defense is a strong offense
, right, it's getting yourrelationship with God as strong
as possible, god as strong aspossible, praying, going to
(27:12):
church, avoiding the occult,repenting for your sins.
That's the best defense againstany kind of diabolic affliction
.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
And I think you said it earlier too because I do
question whether or not aChristian can be possessed.
But I think the key either way,the key is really that
invitation, whether it's an openinvitation or whether it's that
kind of uninvited invitationwhere you're dabbling in that
(27:40):
stuff, you're basically inviting.
So, for those listening, youknow, grab that Bible and do
some research.
You know, john, you said itwell just follow hard after the
Lord.
You know we said it in thepredator episode that the
predators are out looking foryou.
(28:00):
You don't have to look for them.
And that's the same way withthis is the enemy is out there
trying to seek, kill and destroy.
You don't need to go lookingfor him.
So if you're dabbling in any ofthat stuff, wow, beware.
So yeah, prayed up, seek moreof God each day and he will
protect the heart.
(28:21):
So, john, I want to give youfinal—we could talk.
I have so many questions.
We could talk for a long timeand I would love to have you
back, as I invited you before.
But do you have a final word onthis for those who are
listening and watching, who areinterested in this and maybe
want to know more?
We want to talk about your book.
So let us know where we can geta hold of that, where they can
(28:42):
find you online.
But I want to give you a finalword here.
Do you have anything else toadd to those who are watching
and listening?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, I think it really comes down to invoke the
armor of God.
It's there.
God will protect you.
Develop your relationship asbest you can, and that can come
in many different ways.
It can be in prayerful thought,it can be through Bible study
(29:12):
and surround yourself withpeople who are like that, you
know, have friends and familythat you spend time with, that
are also seeking thatrelationship with God, and
you'll be the better for it.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Amen, amen.
The book is.
It's Not About the Devil andyou're going to get three
in-depth stories.
We kind of scratched thesurface here with these three
episodes.
But, john, where can we pickthat book up?
And I would encourage everyoneto do so.
You just heard just a littlebit about each of those sections
and man, such powerful, greatinformation to hone your wisdom
(29:50):
on each of those.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, so all my books sell on Amazon as well as
Barnes Noble online.
There's print versions as wellas audio and e-books.
My website iswwwitisnotaboutcom, where you
can find out more about thebooks myself and a way to
(30:14):
contact me directly.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
John, we want to thank you for being here.
Great series, the book.
I'm really looking forward togetting my hands on it.
I've just read little bits ofit.
I want to read through that andglean from all of your work,
all of your knowledge.
Thank you so much for being onand sharing all this information
with us, and we would love tohave you back.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, we'd love to be back.
Thanks so much for your timeand really appreciate being on
the show and a way to connectwith your audience.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Amen, and for those listening and watching, don't
forget to subscribe and hit thatnotification bell.
We want to let you know anytimewe have somebody like John on
the show where you can gleansome great information.
This conversation is alwaysabout hope, and there is always
hope regardless of the situationyou're in.
So take care and God bless.
Hey, welcome back to Behind the Mic Podcast.
We are here once again withJohn DiGirolamo and if you
missed the last two episodes, westarted out first of the series
(00:23):
talking about online predatorsAbsolutely have to go back and
listen to that if you missed it.
There's so much greatinformation that John gave us
about the research that he'sdone on that.
And then the last episode, wetalked about the pro-life issue.
That we said is not a politicalissue, because it's really not.
It's about the value of lifeand we really want you to listen
(00:47):
to that as well.
Whether you are for or against,we want you to listen and glean
from a little bit of the wisdomthat John found in talking to
the doctor.
That was in his latest book,which is called it's Not About
the Devil.
John, welcome back to the show.
I thank you for doing theseries with us.
Again, for those who are justjoining us for the first time,
(01:08):
can you tell us who you are andreally briefly about your book
and what it is?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Sure, yeah, it's great to be back.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
So my latest book is calledit's Not About the Devil, and so
it's people who are fightingmodern evil.
And who's the ultimate predator?
Well, that's Satan, and Satan'sjob is to corrupt our souls,
(01:33):
and so this book deals with theinsider's view of what happens
in an exorcism.
I interviewed the guy whoco-wrote the manual, the
training manual for Exorcists,and so I feel like I've really
got the you know, the real scoopfor the readers, and it's all
(01:54):
told in a story, so there's aplot line, but all of the truth
and the training and all thethings that happen is all
revealed through storylines,action, dialogue, emotions, etc.
So it reads like a fast-pacedfiction novel, even though it's
all based on real case files ofan exorcist.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Wow, I think tackling that exorcism and spiritual
warfare is really what we'retalking about.
Spiritual warfare Right.
It would definitely heighten mysense of spirituality, the Holy
Spirit within me.
I would be leaning heavily onthe Holy Spirit in researching
this.
So I have to first ask so thisresearch was done through
(02:42):
someone who wrote the Guide toExorcism Talk a little bit about
what that is.
That sounds interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, so in the old days the exorcist would
essentially find an apprenticeto train and train them on what
they needed to do, them on whatthey needed to do.
But now that's become a littlebit more formalized process
because the church is getting alot more requests and so we're
seeing a rise in that, and theyneeded to really make sure there
(03:16):
was consistency andstandardization of what an
exorcist needs to know and howthey need to do that.
And so they wrote a trainingmanual and I interviewed the
person who co-wrote it.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Wow, that's interesting and I'm sure that
you probably learned an awfullot about spiritual warfare and
exorcism in this whole sectionof your book, which I want to
get into as well toward the end.
We'll make sure people know howto get a hold of this, because
you're not just getting thestory about exorcism, you're
(03:49):
getting the story about theculture of death in our society
and you're also getting theonline predator story, so really
, this is like three stories inone book, so make sure you get a
hold of that.
We'll talk about that towardthe end.
But, john, what did you learnin this study with on this
research, with the section ofthe story?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, I really wrote this for the non-expert.
So I look at myself at thebeginning of this process and
the only thing I knew was thingsthat I may have seen in movies
and just other articles, thingslike that.
It's not something that reallya lot of people talk about but
get sensationalized by Hollywood.
(04:34):
So I learned a lot of thingsabout what goes into that, and
the big picture is that thedevil is really busy and will
take advantage of a personwhenever they can, and you know
so.
The demons are fallen angels,right, they fell from grace
(04:56):
because they rejected God andthey really hate humans, hate
humans.
So their entire goal is tocorrupt our souls, to get us
into sin, get us into rejectingGod, and so that's the framework
.
They're busy trying to do this,but when it comes to a
(05:19):
possession where an exorcism isrequired, that is, it's pretty
rare.
There's a lot of other thingsthat demons can influence our
lives in diabolic affliction,but a possession is actually
pretty rare and it's a longprocess.
It's rarely a one and done andin the afternoon throw a little
(05:43):
holy water on somebody and callit a day.
That's not what happens.
It can take months and there'sa vetting process.
Many times it's a mental healthissue or a physical issue.
Before anyone even sees anexorcist, they're getting a full
mental evaluation, physicalevaluation.
(06:04):
That's something I'd neverheard of before.
So the church takes this veryseriously, this vetting process,
and so I think that's kind ofone of the surprises that I
learned.
The other thing is that theexorcist doesn't have any power.
(06:24):
They're invoking all the powerof Christ, and so that's really
important.
Where an exorcist will tell youit's not me, it's Christ
working through that exorcist.
So that's another reallyimportant factor.
But one of the other bigsurprises was was if the person
(06:46):
doesn't want the demon to leave,the demon won't.
Now I know the audience isprobably saying wait a minute.
Why would anybody not want ademon to leave if they're
afflicting them or they'reactually possessed?
And the reason is that if theperson is so attached to their
(07:12):
sin or however they got intothis situation, if they're so
attached to that that theyprefer that to the power of
Christ, the demon won't leave.
The demon is there becausethey've been invited in somehow,
(07:33):
and there's many ways that thatcan happen.
But if they don't want that, uh, that demon to leave because
they're so attached to that,then no matter what the exorcist
priest uh will do, doesn'tmatter that demon's not going to
leave, and that was kind of asurprise when I heard that from
multiple experts.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Wow, yeah, I guess I hadn't ever thought about it,
but it kind of makes sense thatI believe.
You know, god is not going toforce himself on us.
We're not robots.
He's not going to tell us thatwe have to follow him.
We don't really want that.
That's not freedom, and I wouldthink it would kind of be the
(08:13):
same way for Satan and demons isthat they want to be invited.
I think personally and you cancorrect me if I'm wrong because
you know a lot more about thisthan I do, but I think
personally you said it's rare Ithink Satan can do just as much,
if not more, damage withoutpossessing someone, absolutely,
(08:35):
just by spreading that.
You know we've talked aboutdepression and anxiety and
suicidal thoughts.
I think those are probablypretty effective for most people
.
So I think that answers myquestion as to why we don't see
more possessions.
Am I even close on that?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, that's true.
The devil is very active.
He doesn't have to possess usto ruin our lives, so to speak.
It can be through temptation,it can be believing lies that
you know God doesn't mocked bypoliticians, celebrities, media,
etc.
You know God has left thepublic square, has left the
(09:41):
schools, and what's going tofill that void?
Well, it's not going to besomething good.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, yeah, amen, and I guess I have lots of
questions.
This could be a very longepisode.
We'll keep it normal.
So, you know, we've heard, Ithink as Christians growing up
in the church, I've heard thingslike stay away from Ouija
boards, stay away fromhoroscopes, stay away from, you
know, ouija boards, stay awayfrom horoscopes, stay away from
(10:12):
you know.
Now I see what pornography cando to destroy not just one
person but an entire family andeven beyond that.
Are we opening ourselves up toSatan and demons just by simply
looking at horoscopes or playingon?
You know, I think it's I don'twant to say the company, because
I'm not sure and I don't wantto degrade the other one, but
there's a game out there.
Basically it's in the gamesection a Ouija board.
(10:33):
Are we opening ourselves upmore so to demonic activity with
those things?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah.
So the quick answer is yes, butlet me give you the background
as to why that's it.
The answer is yes.
So if you invite God into yourlife, he is going to respond.
If you invite a demon into yourlife, well, he's going to
respond too.
Now, how do you invite a demonand why would anyone want to do
(11:01):
that?
Well, if you look at the occultpractices, what is the occult
trying to do?
It's trying to get power andknowledge that isn't ours to get
.
It isn't available in thenatural world.
So if you're trying to conjureup power and knowledge, that's
(11:25):
not coming from God, it's comingfrom a fallen angel, it's
coming from a demon.
So you mentioned Ouija boards.
Well, what is the point of aOuija board?
To get this sort of forbiddenknowledge that we normally would
not want to do?
So Ouija boards and otheroccult practices, horoscopes,
(11:48):
things like that for sure canopen the door, as well as
witchcraft, especially Now.
I'm not telling your listenersthat if you played with a Ouija
board at a group of kids incollege 20 years ago, that all
of a sudden you're going to getdemonic oppression.
(12:09):
That's not what I'm saying.
But, like any other risk, themore that you engage in that
risk, the more likely thatyou're going to have negative
consequences.
So if you're trying to conjureup power, say from witchcraft,
which is now a growingphenomenon, you look up witches
of TikTok and you will see tensof millions of views, and
(12:33):
especially with kind of youngadult women, we're seeing a rise
in witchcraft.
And what is that all about?
A lot of it is casting spellsand you're trying to conjure
power that is not yours to get.
It's not coming from God.
Therefore, the only other placeit's coming from is those dark
(12:54):
forces.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Now, john, I've also heard that you know we're
talking about fortune telling,we're talking about tea leaves,
we're talking about any of thoseoccultic, witchcraft type
things, even to the Ouija board,even as a kid's game, which is
just crazy to me that it's onthe listing of a game.
(13:19):
I've heard that Satan does nothave.
God is all-knowing, satan isnot, and I've heard that
anything that Satan revealsabout you is only because he's
verified that by being around us.
Does that make sense, if I'masking that correctly, that he's
(13:40):
not all-knowing and thatanything that he brings up is
something that you've said orsomething that he knows from
conversation that we have?
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah, so demons don't fight fair, so that's something
we need to remember.
And they, like angels, areinfused with knowledge when they
were created.
But demons, as well as angelsand humans, can learn through
observation.
(14:10):
So when they you know, tell youthings that they shouldn't know,
or or you know in a seance orfortune telling or something
like that.
It's because they've learnedthrough observation and they're
waiting for that moment when youmight be vulnerable, when you
might be tempted.
And so I think you'reabsolutely right is they've
(14:34):
gained this through observationof our behavior.
And you know, demons move atthe speed of thought.
They can be anywhere anytime.
They're not in a physical world, they're in a spiritual world
only, which means they're notconstricted by distance and
(14:54):
miles and things like that.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah.
So I think the reason I askedthat question is because if
you've ever been involved inanything and you say I hear what
you're saying but there's noway that that person could have
told me this it is demonic.
But the demons and Satanhimself don't have that all
(15:19):
powerful knowledge that God doesand that, just because
something was done, it's nodifferent than somebody
listening to this conversationand then going to one of us and
telling us something that theywould have only heard from here.
Really bad analogy, but reallyI think that we need to
understand that so that whenwe're in situations, or if you
(15:39):
have been in situations likethat and you go but they told me
something or they did somethingthat no way could they have
ever known otherwise, or theydid something that no way could
they have ever known otherwise,we have to be.
I think I said it in the firstepisode we have to be wise as
serpents and gentle as doves,and there's a lot that God has
to say in His Word about thepower of the enemy and I, I
(16:02):
think, in situations where youtalked about seances too, I
think, when we open ourselves upto that, I don't think we're
going to walk away and bepossessed or visibly controlled
by a demon.
I think that, again, I think itgoes back to this gradual kind
of nudging and poking andprodding and saying do you
(16:23):
really—and Satan said this inthe garden, did God really say
that?
And making you questioneverything about God.
So I think I'd love to hearyour thoughts on that.
But I think that we really dojust need to understand how the
spiritual realm works and beaware of it.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, you know the devil wants you to move farther
away from God.
That's kind of the bottom line.
And how do they do that?
They want to convince you thatGod doesn't exist, god doesn't
love you, you don't need God.
You can make up your own rules.
(17:04):
You can make up your own rulesand you should pursue things in
your own self best interest.
Yet we know that biblical valuesfocus on service to others,
sacrifice.
You know, loving loving others,wanting the best for others,
loving others, wanting the bestfor others.
(17:25):
And so if you are moving awayfrom God, that's eventually
going to be problematic.
That may or may not haveanything to do with demonic
activity.
Let's face it Most of the timewe're our own worst enemy.
We're our own choosing of thewrong path.
Many times we have no one elseto blame from ourselves.
(17:49):
So I definitely don't want yourlisteners to think that there's
a demon around every corner andyou know every time something
pops into their head, it's ademon talking to them, because a
lot of times it's our own worstenemy.
So that's definitely somethingto keep in mind, that our goal
should be to strive to be closerand closer to God every day,
(18:14):
every month, every year, etc.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, I love that.
And that brings to mindsomething I heard from a couple
of pastors over the years, andthat is when we talk about sin
in our lives or things that gowrong in our lives, they can
point it to three things.
It's either Satan, it's eitherGod correcting, or it's us, and
those are the three entities atwork God, us or Satan.
(18:42):
And a lot of times I think wegive Satan more credit than what
he deserves because a lot ofthe times and you just said it a
lot of the times it's just usmaking poor decisions, making
bad choices, and those thingscan take years to reconcile.
Yeah, really good stuff, John.
What surprised you most out ofthis whole knowledge, experience
(19:05):
that you had in this research,most out of this whole knowledge
?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
experience that you had in this research.
Is there anything that standsout to you?
Yeah, I think that you knowjust that the devil is real and
he's really busy and he's activeand the devil plays the long
game.
You know, he may be looking foran opportunity when you're 50
years old, not when you're 18years old.
(19:30):
That's right, and so he's goingto look for those
vulnerabilities, for the timewhen you're mad at God for some
reason because something badhappened in your life, and he's
going to try to take advantageof that.
You know, possession is rare.
You know that's where the storyis, but the story is broader of
that.
You know possession is rare.
You know that's where the storyis, but the story is broader
(19:50):
than that.
It talks about somebody who isin habitual sin, had a, you know
, a girlfriend who was in theoccult, also participated in the
occult, and so the story goesthrough some of these dangers
and also you know how thisperson was attached to their sin
(20:13):
and how they finally, you know,were able to break free.
And that can be reallyinspirational because you know
most of the time, you know, weknow what we've done.
That's wrong, but we did itanyways, and maybe the devil was
putting a little, you know,temptation in our ear.
But let's face it, god gave usfree will and so you know,
(20:50):
breaking free of those badhabits is what we all need to do
, and I think reading the storyand seeing how this person did
that and how you know whathappened before, during and
after an exorcism is a big partof the story and you know, I
interviewed somebody who waspossessed and I asked them what
goes through your head when youknow that you're in that
situation, and so that's woveninto the plot line and I think
(21:12):
it makes it really interesting.
And you know, I tell peoplethis story is not
sensationalized, but that makesit even more powerful.
You know there are some thingsthat Hollywood gets right, such
as holy water and the effects ofthat on somebody who's
possessed, and so you'll see thethings that are true that
(21:34):
Hollywood gets right, but italso dispels a lot of the
sensationalized stuff.
So I think that that's a bigpart of the story as well.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
John, at least one more question I have to ask you.
In all of this you mentionedearlier about going through this
process before someone performsan exorcism, counseling and
things like that.
Is it mental health?
So tell us, what does that looklike?
I think we go back to theExorcist and, like you said,
(22:10):
countless horror movies fromHollywood and we have
preconceived ideas of what apossessed person looks like.
I would imagine if you thinkabout the famous scene of the
little girl in the bed duringthe Exorcist, how do you take
someone like that to a counselor?
My question then, with thatthought process, is does it look
(22:34):
like that all the time?
If someone is possessed, arethey at times worse than others?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So you bring up a good point,because what Hollywood is
showing in a movie like that inthat scene, is when the demon is
what they call manifestingitself, where there may be
speaking foreign languages,they're having superhuman
strength that a child or a 90pound woman shouldn't have.
(23:02):
Things like that.
And that happens a lot duringthe exorcism rite, when certain
prayers are being recited, wherecertain holy relics are being
shown to that person.
But when that's not happening,the person may be completely in
(23:25):
charge of their faculties andcan have a normal conversation.
So the Hollywood scenes is notwhat that person's going through
, hour after hour, day after day.
It's really only when they'regoing through the exorcism right
, which is why many times ittakes months, sometimes years,
(23:46):
for it to happen.
And they can.
You know the exorcist it's avery grueling process.
They can only do it for acouple of hours at a time, and
so those other times, beforethey're even getting to that
point, they're going to getvetted.
There's going to be a lot ofquestions about the background
(24:09):
of this person and really tryingto figure out if there is a
demon there, why, what happened,how did they get invited in,
and only until the exorcist canfigure that out?
Can they really figure out whatto do next and kind of how to
deal with that situation?
There's a lot of people who tryto fake it.
(24:32):
There's a lot of people who mayhave bipolar or schizophrenia
or things like that.
That can look like it's reallydiabolic affliction, but but is
not so they're.
They're very careful about, youknow, getting someone in in the
(24:56):
room with an exorcist and witha team.
There's usually five or sixother people there praying,
helping out, praying, helpingout.
It's never somebody alone, andso I can just say that all the
ones that I've interviewedreally talked about a pretty
strong vetting process.
Of the hundred people that cometo them, maybe 1% are really
(25:24):
truly possessed them.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You know, maybe 1% are really, truly possessed.
Wow, well, I would say in theend, life is hard as a believer,
but it could be much worse.
I would say follow Christ.
If you have doubts, boy, seekhim out.
Because I think in what you'retalking about, in just maybe
that 1%, that very small amountof people who are actually
possessed.
We don't want to go there.
(25:53):
And it does prove, as you said,satan is real.
I think, if anything else thatyou take from this, satan is
real and if Satan's real,certainly there's a God who is
real and that God loves you andthat God wants to spend eternity
with you.
John, a question that probablyeverybody listening and watching
(26:15):
is asking themselves right nowcan a Christian be possessed?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yes, yes, yeah, um, you know, having um it it and it
depends on on an invitationthat that that person may have
done through the occult, throughhabitual sin, um, there there
can be things such as um, youknow somebody who who has, uh,
(26:45):
was consecrated to Satan as achild and and there could be
underlying factors there.
And so you know, really thebest defense is a strong offense
, right, it's getting yourrelationship with God as strong
as possible, god as strong aspossible, praying, going to
(27:12):
church, avoiding the occult,repenting for your sins.
That's the best defense againstany kind of diabolic affliction
.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
And I think you said it earlier too because I do
question whether or not aChristian can be possessed.
But I think the key either way,the key is really that
invitation, whether it's an openinvitation or whether it's that
kind of uninvited invitationwhere you're dabbling in that
(27:40):
stuff, you're basically inviting.
So, for those listening, youknow, grab that Bible and do
some research.
You know, john, you said itwell just follow hard after the
Lord.
You know we said it in thepredator episode that the
predators are out looking foryou.
(28:00):
You don't have to look for them.
And that's the same way withthis is the enemy is out there
trying to seek, kill and destroy.
You don't need to go lookingfor him.
So if you're dabbling in any ofthat stuff, wow, beware.
So yeah, prayed up, seek moreof God each day and he will
protect the heart.
(28:21):
So, john, I want to give youfinal—we could talk.
I have so many questions.
We could talk for a long timeand I would love to have you
back, as I invited you before.
But do you have a final word onthis for those who are
listening and watching, who areinterested in this and maybe
want to know more?
We want to talk about your book.
So let us know where we can geta hold of that, where they can
(28:42):
find you online.
But I want to give you a finalword here.
Do you have anything else toadd to those who are watching
and listening?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, I think it really comes down to invoke the
armor of God.
It's there.
God will protect you.
Develop your relationship asbest you can, and that can come
in many different ways.
It can be in prayerful thought,it can be through Bible study
(29:12):
and surround yourself withpeople who are like that, you
know, have friends and familythat you spend time with, that
are also seeking thatrelationship with God, and
you'll be the better for it.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Amen, amen.
The book is.
It's Not About the Devil andyou're going to get three
in-depth stories.
We kind of scratched thesurface here with these three
episodes.
But, john, where can we pickthat book up?
And I would encourage everyoneto do so.
You just heard just a littlebit about each of those sections
and man, such powerful, greatinformation to hone your wisdom
(29:50):
on each of those.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, so all my books sell on Amazon as well as
Barnes Noble online.
There's print versions as wellas audio and e-books.
My website iswwwitisnotaboutcom, where you
can find out more about thebooks myself and a way to
(30:14):
contact me directly.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
John, we want to thank you for being here.
Great series, the book.
I'm really looking forward togetting my hands on it.
I've just read little bits ofit.
I want to read through that andglean from all of your work,
all of your knowledge.
Thank you so much for being onand sharing all this information
with us, and we would love tohave you back.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, we'd love to be back.
Thanks so much for your timeand really appreciate being on
the show and a way to connectwith your audience.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Amen, and for those listening and watching, don't
forget to subscribe and hit thatnotification bell.
We want to let you know anytimewe have somebody like John on
the show where you can gleansome great information.
This conversation is alwaysabout hope, and there is always
hope regardless of the situationyou're in.
So take care and God bless.
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