May 2, 2024 • 21 mins
Welcome to another SLAE episode. These episodes were recorded at The Salt Lake Animation Expo in March of 2024. We interviewed Expo Speakers and others who were involved with the expo. A special thanks to Jordyn Curly for allowing us to do this.
In this episode, Mike Morris, the Creative Director at BlueOwl, provides insider insights into the mind of corporate clients. He discusses client-side hesitations, shares tips on how to understand what they are thinking, and provides practical advice on navigating conversations with creative internal team leaders. Drawing from his experience as an ex-Amazon creative employee, Mike takes us on a journey through his personal learnings, providing valuable takeaways for all those in the creative industry. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to enhance their corporate creativity skills.
If you want to connect with Mike, you can find him at https://mikemorris.tv/
Or shoot him an email at mike@mikemorris.tv
If you have a topic or question you’d like us to cover, you can submit it to http://www.openpixelstudios.com/podquestion
Learn more about this podcast here: https://www.openpixelstudios.com/behindthepixel
EMedia produces the podcast in Easthampton, MA.
Produced by Jackson Foote and Will Colón
Written and Created by:
Will Colón: https://www.linkedin.com/in/willmcolon/
Kathryn Taccone: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathryntaccone/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike (00:00):
No. They're worried about the brand. They're worried
about, board and andshareholders and everything. We
as creatives, we don't thinkthat matters because we're just
like, art is pure. Run with it.
Trust the gut. Like, you'll beso much happier. Yes. But you
have to be willing to put yourideas and your thoughts through
that strategic currency exchangeand see where they're coming
(00:21):
from.
Kathryn (00:38):
Hi.
Will (00:39):
Hi. It's good to see you.
Mike (00:40):
It's good to see you too. I mean, I feel like I've known
you forever since yesterday.
Kathryn (00:43):
Yeah. Yeah. The you when you make those special
bonds Yeah.
Will (00:47):
Yeah. Exactly.
Kathryn (00:47):
When the real conversation goes down at the
end.
Mike (00:49):
The after party is where it really Yeah. Relationships
are forged.
Kathryn (00:53):
Yeah. Forged in fire. Absolutely. Yeah. It's wonderful
to see you.
How have you been?
Mike (01:00):
Doing really well. You know, just, kinda soaking
everything in here at this expoand trying to make sure that I
talk to everybody that I that Ican. I mean, there's just so
many talented people here and somany, like it's fun for me to
come here too because as, like,primarily a motion graphics
artist, there are so many peoplehere who do stuff that I just
don't understand, like a lot ofcharacter animation and game
(01:21):
development. And, so it's reallyfun to just kinda, like, soak
all that in.
Kathryn (01:25):
Yeah. Yeah. Can you can you tell us briefly for for our
audience, so we're here at theanimation expo. It has been
wonderful. Can you tell us whatyour talk was about?
Mike (01:34):
Yeah. So, I am I would say that, like, of the speakers, I
probably was the one who had theleast, like, hard skills to
present. There are so manytalented people here, but what
I'm really passionate about is,as as somebody who has dealt
with depression and anxiety anddidn't even know I was dealing
with ADHD until about 4 yearsago, somebody that's dealt with
(01:57):
those mental health struggles mywhole life, that being paired
with the the competitive, crazycomparative nature of our
industry has really kinda messedwith my mental health. And,
maybe it's because I was raisedby a clinical psychologist, and
so I'm very open about it. Youknow, it's never been one of
those taboo topics for me, but Ifeel really strongly that
(02:19):
there's a lot of people who wanthelp, think they may need help,
but they're too afraid to talkabout it.
Like, there's some stigma aroundit. So my talk yesterday was all
about how to have artisticresilience, how to weather this
industry, but also, like, notlose your mind.
Kathryn (02:34):
Yeah. I think it was I was so grateful to see, like,
even a talk like that bewelcomed into an expo. Right?
Because you normally never seethat. It's like, how do, you
know, business harder.
Yes.
Mike (02:46):
Yeah. Just keep grinding. Yeah. And that was, like, the
antithesis of my message. I kindof was worried I was gonna
ruffle feathers where I was,like, just go home and sleep.
Kathryn (02:54):
No. You were getting cheers. Okay.
Will (02:56):
Yeah.
Mike (02:57):
Yeah.
Will (02:57):
I think after our talk and after your talk, there was
someone who came up to us whowas talking about change
management, how companies arechanging the way they're
Kathryn (03:08):
Yeah. There you go.
Will (03:08):
I should talk into the mic. Changing the way they're
thinking about what a goodbusiness should run like. Think
about more of culture. Youmentioned right before the
podcast, started this,microaggression around AI. Mhmm.
So, like, that was interesting.I think, at least in our
creative industry, we'restarting to see things shift
from hustle, we need to geteverything done out yesterday,
(03:32):
to, okay, let's what isreasonable? Yeah. Let's lend a
little bit of credibility to youbecause there's maybe a lot of
people on our podcast whohaven't
Mike (03:41):
I guarantee most people have no idea. Right.
Will (03:43):
I have no idea who you are. I don't think
Kathryn (03:44):
they still know who we are yet. We're still figuring
that out. Yeah.
Mike (03:47):
We're in this together, though. Yeah.
Will (03:49):
So, yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe a
little bit about your backgroundand what you're doing now.
Mike (03:53):
Yeah. You bet. So I actually started, my career. I
went to Brigham YoungUniversity, with the intent of
becoming, like, a an artdirector with a copywriter
partner working on MadisonStreet and, you know, doing the
whole pitch thing, the the thewoes that we talked about last
night. Not not to knock onanyone who's in that industry.
There's a special talent thatcomes with that. I really firmly
(04:15):
believe in understanding ofconceptual and the why and
everything. But, very quickly inthe course of my career, I just
I fell in love with motiongraphics and animation. I was
like, all of my conceptsnaturally gravitated towards TV
or, like, what could we do that,like, is like a web series? You
know?
So I I was self taught in aftereffects and then moved into 3 d
(04:37):
and then just really pivoted mycareer and focused on motion
graphics and animation. Andsince then, I've worked at
different agencies as either amotion designer, art director,
or animation director. And thenI started my own studio for a
little while with, 2 otherextremely talented individuals
called Nocturnal. Did that for afew years. And then due to just
(04:58):
family needs, left the businessand, took a full time job at
Amazon working with their inhouse creative team.
And I was there for about 8years until I, you know, life
dealt me a a situation where itwas time to leave.
Kathryn (05:11):
Yep.
Mike (05:11):
Yep. Fun tech layoffs of of yesteryear and, ended up at a
kind of somewhere I neverthought I'd end up before at
this little small subsidiary ofState Farm called Quanada that
our whole job is to be like aninternal brand studio
Will (05:26):
Yeah.
Mike (05:27):
And to somehow explain insure techno insurance
technology to the world, which Istill am, like, struggling to
understand. And it's beenexactly what I needed. It's been
amazing.
Kathryn (05:39):
Yeah. It's really interesting that you mentioned
that because I think, for sometransparency here, there's this
idea that, like, a lot ofcompanies are starting to have
their own in house agencies, butthey're not calling it, like,
you know because I know we wespoke with somebody who was at
Wayfair, and Wayfair has theirown creative agency, but they
don't call it Wayfair CreativeAgency. It's its own company or
(06:00):
its own entity.
Will (06:01):
PepsiCo has its own in house agency. They call it
something like blue Yeah. Blueocean or something like
Kathryn (06:08):
that.
Will (06:08):
But yeah.
Kathryn (06:09):
Yeah. So it's interesting that that's like
Yeah. A model that, that exists.That I I think a lot of
creatives don't realize thatthat happens on the court sort
of corporate side.
Mike (06:18):
Yeah. It's interesting. At Amazon, we had our internal
studio even though we were partof, like, this large massive
organization. I was on 2different orgs there, and both
of them, we had our own brandname. The first one because
Amazon has this whole philosophyaround, like, it's always day 1.
Be excited and eager, which is acool philosophy, especially if
your day 1 is backed by1,000,000,000,000 of dollars
(06:38):
like Amazon. That's in hand.Yeah. Yeah. The render power we
Will (06:44):
had on day 1 was amazing. Right. Right.
Mike (06:45):
But so we rebranded it to d one, and we did all this
really cool stuff around it.And, then I then followed the
the same person responsible forthat over to the devices org
where he just revamped it asjust a brand studio, which was
really cool. We did a bunch ofstuff around that. So it I think
there's something in us ascreatives that's, like, yes, I'm
at this in house team, but I Istill have to feel like I'm
(07:07):
operating in a creative silo.
Kathryn (07:09):
Totally. Totally. That makes sense.
Will (07:10):
Yes. So speaking of that, that's a really great transition
to our next question, which iswhat are some of the biggest
challenges working creativelyat, like, large corporate
companies where most of thedecisions maybe are driven by
data or by numbers rather than,like, what we tend to think
drives creative is, like,creative, artistic choices.
Right? Things that are in ourminds that make us feel good.
(07:32):
Mhmm.
Like, how do you navigate thatspace?
Mike (07:35):
Well, I would say that I I I navigated it. I don't know
that I successfully navigated itall the time. It really depends
on the business partner or theexecutive that you're you're
working with or trying to sellideas to. We had some that just,
like, got it. You know, they hadbackground yep, absolutely.
Go for it. I trust you. Moreoften than not, it was a lot of
(08:00):
risk averse decision making andkind of like strategy by
committee. And so it was hard.You kinda have to build this
bubble of yourselves ascreatives and, like, you know,
kinda we're all in the trenchestogether, so to speak.
We're in this, and we're gonnaband together. We're gonna do
our best. We're gonna and you itabsolutely is imperative that
(08:22):
you have a creative lead,executive creative director,
creative director, whatever, whois willing to go in and try to
sell through the hard stuff andis willing to, like, talk the
talk with those executives. Andwhat's interesting is, Will, you
just mentioned that, we asartists, we like well, the
creative should be, you know,the the end all be all final
(08:43):
decision maker. And I agree withthat.
And I think what I've learned isthat most executives feel the
same way, but their preferenceof creative is vastly different
than ours. Their exposure towhat's out there, the time that
they spent with it is is not asdeep and seasoned as ours is,
and so they're not ascomfortable with things that are
(09:03):
new. I found that the more thatwe expose them and the more we
kinda took them on a journeywith us and walked them through
and used them as collaboratorsas opposed to, like, you know,
the emperor kinda with his thumbhesitating to decide whether we
live or die.
Kathryn (09:16):
Yeah. Yeah.
Mike (09:16):
It it was a lot more effective. So a lot of, like,
upwards education and helpingthem understand what we do.
Kathryn (09:22):
I like the phrase upwards education. That makes
sense. Yeah. Yeah.
Will (09:26):
Yeah. One of the things I think you mentioned, I don't
know when we were talking, butthe way executives think about
whether or not a piece ofcreative or something creative
is going to work is kind ofbased on what the return is
going to be.
Mike (09:42):
Absolutely.
Will (09:43):
So how do you navigate maybe those conversations? Do
you also, as a creative, have tostart thinking about that as
you're making it?
Mike (09:50):
Oh, absolutely. And it's like it's hard because you feel
like a little bit of your souldies at that point. Yeah. And I
say I think that's kind of oneof the risks of going in house
is you have to accept the factthat the end of the day, you
have to do what they want you todo. I mean, that's true
anywhere.
They're your clients. They'repaying you. But you have this,
like, you know, that that famoustalk of f you, pay me. Yeah.
(10:12):
Yeah.
You don't have that in house.And so you don't have that
currency to kind of, like, holdover their head. And so it's
like, well, I am paying you.Just do it. And, so I feel like
a lot of what that is isunderstanding the very real or
very big reality that you can doeverything you want, but you it
might be in vain.
(10:33):
And that's hard, but I thinkonce you come to grips with
that, it's easier to start toplan your creative around that
and use it as anotherconstraint.
Kathryn (10:39):
Mhmm. I get what you mean. I think I I heard from my
mentor recently that there wasthis idea that, like, if there's
ever a time where you feel likeyou're you're not empowered, but
you need to be able to saysomething that, like, maybe the
work's really stressful on yourteam or whatever it might be,
Like, he said to always try toapproach it from the the common
ground that you both wanna makethe work the best it can
(11:02):
possibly be. And so when youcome at it from that level
playing field, it it removessome of the, like, the bottled
up emotions that we have of,like, the stress of it all and
being, like, this is affectingme because x y z. It's more
like, you know, this isaffecting the project.
Here's why it's affecting theproject. Here's how it's
negatively impacting your budgetover time, and here's how we can
(11:25):
make it better. Here's the theprovided solution. We already
have it on the table. So what doyou think?
And it's like, if you come toall it's it's sad that we have
to, like, prepare so much ofthat to, like, then be like,
okay. Now we're I'm gonna givethis whole spiel and, like but
it is, it is putting everybodyon the same playing field there
(11:45):
in in some way. Whether or notthey accept it or they, like, is
a whole different question. ButI think it's like trying to meet
them what they're where they'reat, like, from thinking about it
from if they're only thinkingabout the numbers, then you have
to come at it from thatstandpoint too, which is hard
because I don't think creativesare taught that. So, yeah, it's
an interesting interesting idea.
Will (12:05):
Yeah. I think our dog, agrees with you.
Mike (12:08):
Yeah. I was like, say
Will (12:09):
dog barking. Yeah.
Mike (12:10):
I'm gonna go to the animation expo. Come on, Rex.
Kathryn (12:12):
Yeah. Yeah. I did not know we were gonna have a a dog
presenter today. That'sexciting. Yeah.
Mike (12:17):
Well, what you were saying, Catherine, about that
idea is it it just kinda givesit it conjures up this image in
my head of, like, a strategiccurrency exchange. Right? Like,
strategic goal for the executiveis bottom line, is return on
investment. Is is it effective?Is it communicating what we
want?
And is it not gonna put us inhot water and a cancel culture
and everything like that, whichis totally fair. You know,
(12:38):
they're worried about the brand.They're worried about, board and
and shareholders and everything.We as creatives, we don't think
that matters because we're just,like, art is pure. Run with it.
Trust the gut. Like, you'll beso much happier. Yes. But you
have to be willing to put yourideas and your thoughts through
that strategic currency exchangeand see where they're coming
(13:00):
from. I I spent too long atlarge corporations trying to,
like, prove that I was right andseeing them as, like, the
obstacle rather than a teammate.
Yeah. I mean, sure, theirsalaries are massively bigger
than mine. But to be fair,they're also a a lot more
familiar with their businessthan I am. And they're the ones
(13:22):
who will take the heat if itultimately fails or succeeds.
Will (13:25):
So Right.
Kathryn (13:25):
It is under their responsibility.
Mike (13:27):
And so the the more I kinda let go of that, like,
creative, like, purity, whichsounds terrible to say. I'm
like, ugh.
Kathryn (13:35):
I know what you mean. Yeah. I'm
Mike (13:36):
so smurmy.
Will (13:37):
You know?
Mike (13:37):
But, like, the more I let go of that, the more I was,
like, the more I was happy. And,actually, the more freedom I
felt like I got because theytrusted that I was there to help
them and just kinda see theirvision come to life. I was a
problem solver with them insteadof just, like,
Will (13:51):
a pain
Mike (13:51):
on their neck.
Kathryn (13:52):
Yeah. It it kinda leads, I think, to this question
of, like, you know, do you haveany advice for clients who are
trying to get this work doneand, like, how you know, if
we're if we're trying to meetthem where they're at, like, how
can they help to meet wherewe're at and come to an
understanding there to kindabuild that trust that you're
talking about?
Mike (14:10):
Yeah. I think I think there's a lot of just a lack of
understanding from how hard whatwe do actually is. You know,
they they come to us and theysay, here's a brief. Here's your
budget. They come back for thereview 1 or whatever, and they
don't know everything that'shappened in there and the vast
amount of people that have beeninvolved, the hundreds of people
from preproduction to productionto whatever that have been along
(14:33):
the way.
And, helping them understandthat it's not just like we're
sitting around, you know, with alittle Nerf Poop going, like,
yeah. Isn't creative fun?
Kathryn (14:43):
You know?
Mike (14:43):
Like, let's spend their money now and get some sushi.
Kathryn (14:45):
You know, I am getting, like, flashbacks though to a
time where at at at our oldoffice, we used to make, like,
little paper airplanes and,like, send them to each other
across the desk. So maybe thathappened once. But There's some
Mike (14:58):
of that for sure, but we would, we never did this. But
now that I'm thinking about it,like, why didn't I ever probably
because they didn't have thetime. But if even just the
invite of saying, like, hey,executive, why don't you come
sit down on the brainstormingsession? We're terribly afraid
of that as creatives, and, youknow, that's a risky move. Yeah.
They can derail it, but you cansay, why don't you come, see how
(15:18):
the process works? If you haveany extra input, go ahead. And
and you could do it totally as,like, a, you know, not the real,
like, meat and potatoes part ofthe process.
Kathryn (15:28):
Right. Right.
Mike (15:29):
But get them involved early on and help them
understand what they're lookingat, and it piques their interest
and then helps them feel moretied to you and committed to you
and you to them.
Kathryn (15:38):
That's a great point because we
Will (15:40):
So but but I wanna caution here. Mhmm. Or but so there's 2
things. Okay. I wanna cautionthat sometimes, yeah, you
mentioned derail the process.
But, I mean, even more so, theymight come at it from, like, an
emotional place where you'reyou're gonna ruin my business if
you go that way. You know what Imean? Like, that that kind of
(16:00):
emotional tie.
Kathryn (16:01):
That ties to, like, us saying, like, stay curious, not
defensive. Yeah. Right? Like,the but
Will (16:06):
So there's one. But but then the other thing I would say
is that they might not have thetime. And I think that's a big
like, a lot of the times,executives aren't thinking I
should devote some time to this.
Kathryn (16:17):
Right. But that's the thing. They have to they have to
see the value in the time. Ithink that's it. Right?
So they're like because becauseotherwise, they're like, oh, I
don't have time for this. Butit's like, no. You you need to
be a part of this. Yeah. Becauseit, like, the case in point, a I
remember a project we worked onwhere, like, we we got, like, I
think, 3 we got to the animationstage, and that was the first
(16:39):
time that, like, the vicepresident of the company had
seen the project.
Will (16:42):
Yeah.
Kathryn (16:42):
And they were like, what is this?
Mike (16:44):
Yeah.
Kathryn (16:45):
And, like and then you have to be like, okay. Well, we
gotta explain everything aboutit. We gotta, like, you know,
because you didn't get involvedeven at the beginning. Yeah.
Like, and and it felt like shewas already pretty defensive
about it and just feeling like Idon't understand the value of
what I'm looking at.
And we put a lot of time andmoney and energy into it. So I
agree to your point that, likeYeah. There there has to be a a
(17:09):
push for seeing the like, havingexecutive level or, like, you
know, the final the finaldecision makers having a say
Will (17:18):
in the process earlier on. Yeah. Yeah. There's also I mean,
I've heard from a couple peoplenow during this expo that, like,
there are sometimes people inbetween who are afraid of
showcasing work that's too earlybecause they quote won't get it.
Right?
Like there's this idea, I couldnever show this to Ted because
(17:40):
Ted's not gonna get it. Ted. Andif he sees it too early, he
might just can the wholeproject. Yeah. Right?
And so, like, there's a fineline
Mike (17:50):
Sure.
Will (17:50):
That you're kind of navigating.
Mike (17:52):
Yeah. You definitely have to know who your executives are
and when it's valuable to bringthem in. And you could you could
scale that according to whatevertheir capability is. We were
doing one thing at Amazon whereour s team member, our very
senior leader, had a backgroundin 3 d production and 3 d
animation. He was totallycomfortable looking at
wireframes and knew what it was.
Mhmm. Once I found that out, Iwas like, let's not polish this.
(18:13):
Let's send him a
Will (18:14):
Let's
Mike (18:14):
send him a wireframe. He'll get it. Right. Right. And
he did.
He was like, okay. I see whatyou're doing. The timing feels
great. Just make sure that yourlighting is right. And I was
like, this is amazing.
Yeah. I was super lucky in thatcase. Right. It can very much go
south. But I think if if wehonestly feel like especially in
in internal corporate, like,environment, if we we're gonna
position ourselves as a partner,we need to treat them like a
(18:36):
partner Yes.
Not as a gatekeeper. Yep. And indoing that, I think a lot of
their defenses will come downbecause I think traditionally
the relationship has been veryus and them. And hopefully,
they'll see your transparencyand your willingness to kind of
open up earlier on in theprocess as a sign of your trust
in them, and maybe, hopefully,it'll be reciprocated.
Kathryn (18:56):
Yeah. So I'm curious because I know we're actually
Will (18:59):
Yeah. We're really close to time.
Kathryn (19:00):
We're really close to time already. It kinda flew by.
Mike (19:02):
Yeah. Sorry. I'm a I'm I'm a very Gabby person.
Kathryn (19:05):
No. No. This is perfect. We I mean, you answered
the question. So we're we'reright on track.
We're on budget.
Mike (19:12):
We're on schedule. Exactly.
Will (19:13):
Yeah. Yeah.
Kathryn (19:14):
That's what happens when you just work
Will (19:20):
with a partner. Exactly. Yeah. There's trust here. Yes.
Yes. Yeah. So I I'm
Kathryn (19:20):
I guess I'm curious, like, if, you know, if I I think
a lot of people are gonna beinterested in in reaching out to
you and trying to connect andand having these deeper
conversations, whether it's onthe client side or talking
about, like, the internal thatwe deal with on
Will (19:33):
on the
Kathryn (19:34):
personal side. Like, how can people reach out to you?
Where would you want them to go?
Mike (19:37):
Yeah. I'm I'm very open with my personal information. My
presentation yesterday, I put mycell phone number and my email
up there. You know, reach out tome. My personal email address is
mike@mikemorrisdot tv.
You can put my phone number onthe link to this if you want to.
I'll make sure you guys have it.It's I'm I'm very open. And if I
don't pick up right away, it'sprobably because I have ADHD
(19:58):
and, you know, I'll get back toyou. But Or
Kathryn (20:00):
you're at an expo.
Will (20:01):
You know?
Mike (20:01):
It happens. Or or my wife is the first in the queue
because I haven't responded toher sooner than that. But, yeah,
I would I'm I'd love to talkwith people and connect with
people, so I'm more than happyto hop on a call or whatever
people wanna do.
Kathryn (20:14):
That's awesome.
Will (20:15):
Thank you. Mike Morris, you've been such a pleasant
ginger to talk to.
Mike (20:20):
Yes. Goal achieved.
Kathryn (20:22):
Yes. Yes. Thank you for being
Mike (20:23):
here, really. For having me. It's been a pleasure. I've
loved getting to know you guys.
Kathryn (20:26):
Yeah. We'll do a little round of claps. Yeah. We'll put
the the sound the soundapplause.
Will (20:32):
This episode is
Kathryn (20:33):
probably It's as if everyone was right there.
Mike (20:34):
Yeah. Just do the air horn
Will (20:35):
when it's cracked. Was created.
Kathryn (20:38):
It's always cool. Dotcom.
Mike (20:40):
Yeah. It is. It's never it's never tagged.
Will (20:42):
Yeah. Stay creative.
Kathryn (20:44):
Oh, that's perfect. Cool. Awesome.
Mike (20:45):
Well, best of luck to you guys. In the
Will (20:46):
next time.
Kathryn (20:47):
Thank you.
Will (20:51):
Bye.
No. They're worried about the brand. They're worried
about, board and andshareholders and everything. We
as creatives, we don't thinkthat matters because we're just
like, art is pure. Run with it.
Trust the gut. Like, you'll beso much happier. Yes. But you
have to be willing to put yourideas and your thoughts through
that strategic currency exchangeand see where they're coming
(00:21):
from.
Kathryn (00:38):
Hi.
Will (00:39):
Hi. It's good to see you.
Mike (00:40):
It's good to see you too. I mean, I feel like I've known
you forever since yesterday.
Kathryn (00:43):
Yeah. Yeah. The you when you make those special
bonds Yeah.
Will (00:47):
Yeah. Exactly.
Kathryn (00:47):
When the real conversation goes down at the
end.
Mike (00:49):
The after party is where it really Yeah. Relationships
are forged.
Kathryn (00:53):
Yeah. Forged in fire. Absolutely. Yeah. It's wonderful
to see you.
How have you been?
Mike (01:00):
Doing really well. You know, just, kinda soaking
everything in here at this expoand trying to make sure that I
talk to everybody that I that Ican. I mean, there's just so
many talented people here and somany, like it's fun for me to
come here too because as, like,primarily a motion graphics
artist, there are so many peoplehere who do stuff that I just
don't understand, like a lot ofcharacter animation and game
(01:21):
development. And, so it's reallyfun to just kinda, like, soak
all that in.
Kathryn (01:25):
Yeah. Yeah. Can you can you tell us briefly for for our
audience, so we're here at theanimation expo. It has been
wonderful. Can you tell us whatyour talk was about?
Mike (01:34):
Yeah. So, I am I would say that, like, of the speakers, I
probably was the one who had theleast, like, hard skills to
present. There are so manytalented people here, but what
I'm really passionate about is,as as somebody who has dealt
with depression and anxiety anddidn't even know I was dealing
with ADHD until about 4 yearsago, somebody that's dealt with
(01:57):
those mental health struggles mywhole life, that being paired
with the the competitive, crazycomparative nature of our
industry has really kinda messedwith my mental health. And,
maybe it's because I was raisedby a clinical psychologist, and
so I'm very open about it. Youknow, it's never been one of
those taboo topics for me, but Ifeel really strongly that
(02:19):
there's a lot of people who wanthelp, think they may need help,
but they're too afraid to talkabout it.
Like, there's some stigma aroundit. So my talk yesterday was all
about how to have artisticresilience, how to weather this
industry, but also, like, notlose your mind.
Kathryn (02:34):
Yeah. I think it was I was so grateful to see, like,
even a talk like that bewelcomed into an expo. Right?
Because you normally never seethat. It's like, how do, you
know, business harder.
Yes.
Mike (02:46):
Yeah. Just keep grinding. Yeah. And that was, like, the
antithesis of my message. I kindof was worried I was gonna
ruffle feathers where I was,like, just go home and sleep.
Kathryn (02:54):
No. You were getting cheers. Okay.
Will (02:56):
Yeah.
Mike (02:57):
Yeah.
Will (02:57):
I think after our talk and after your talk, there was
someone who came up to us whowas talking about change
management, how companies arechanging the way they're
Kathryn (03:08):
Yeah. There you go.
Will (03:08):
I should talk into the mic. Changing the way they're
thinking about what a goodbusiness should run like. Think
about more of culture. Youmentioned right before the
podcast, started this,microaggression around AI. Mhmm.
So, like, that was interesting.I think, at least in our
creative industry, we'restarting to see things shift
from hustle, we need to geteverything done out yesterday,
(03:32):
to, okay, let's what isreasonable? Yeah. Let's lend a
little bit of credibility to youbecause there's maybe a lot of
people on our podcast whohaven't
Mike (03:41):
I guarantee most people have no idea. Right.
Will (03:43):
I have no idea who you are. I don't think
Kathryn (03:44):
they still know who we are yet. We're still figuring
that out. Yeah.
Mike (03:47):
We're in this together, though. Yeah.
Will (03:49):
So, yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe a
little bit about your backgroundand what you're doing now.
Mike (03:53):
Yeah. You bet. So I actually started, my career. I
went to Brigham YoungUniversity, with the intent of
becoming, like, a an artdirector with a copywriter
partner working on MadisonStreet and, you know, doing the
whole pitch thing, the the thewoes that we talked about last
night. Not not to knock onanyone who's in that industry.
There's a special talent thatcomes with that. I really firmly
(04:15):
believe in understanding ofconceptual and the why and
everything. But, very quickly inthe course of my career, I just
I fell in love with motiongraphics and animation. I was
like, all of my conceptsnaturally gravitated towards TV
or, like, what could we do that,like, is like a web series? You
know?
So I I was self taught in aftereffects and then moved into 3 d
(04:37):
and then just really pivoted mycareer and focused on motion
graphics and animation. Andsince then, I've worked at
different agencies as either amotion designer, art director,
or animation director. And thenI started my own studio for a
little while with, 2 otherextremely talented individuals
called Nocturnal. Did that for afew years. And then due to just
(04:58):
family needs, left the businessand, took a full time job at
Amazon working with their inhouse creative team.
And I was there for about 8years until I, you know, life
dealt me a a situation where itwas time to leave.
Kathryn (05:11):
Yep.
Mike (05:11):
Yep. Fun tech layoffs of of yesteryear and, ended up at a
kind of somewhere I neverthought I'd end up before at
this little small subsidiary ofState Farm called Quanada that
our whole job is to be like aninternal brand studio
Will (05:26):
Yeah.
Mike (05:27):
And to somehow explain insure techno insurance
technology to the world, which Istill am, like, struggling to
understand. And it's beenexactly what I needed. It's been
amazing.
Kathryn (05:39):
Yeah. It's really interesting that you mentioned
that because I think, for sometransparency here, there's this
idea that, like, a lot ofcompanies are starting to have
their own in house agencies, butthey're not calling it, like,
you know because I know we wespoke with somebody who was at
Wayfair, and Wayfair has theirown creative agency, but they
don't call it Wayfair CreativeAgency. It's its own company or
(06:00):
its own entity.
Will (06:01):
PepsiCo has its own in house agency. They call it
something like blue Yeah. Blueocean or something like
Kathryn (06:08):
that.
Will (06:08):
But yeah.
Kathryn (06:09):
Yeah. So it's interesting that that's like
Yeah. A model that, that exists.That I I think a lot of
creatives don't realize thatthat happens on the court sort
of corporate side.
Mike (06:18):
Yeah. It's interesting. At Amazon, we had our internal
studio even though we were partof, like, this large massive
organization. I was on 2different orgs there, and both
of them, we had our own brandname. The first one because
Amazon has this whole philosophyaround, like, it's always day 1.
Be excited and eager, which is acool philosophy, especially if
your day 1 is backed by1,000,000,000,000 of dollars
(06:38):
like Amazon. That's in hand.Yeah. Yeah. The render power we
Will (06:44):
had on day 1 was amazing. Right. Right.
Mike (06:45):
But so we rebranded it to d one, and we did all this
really cool stuff around it.And, then I then followed the
the same person responsible forthat over to the devices org
where he just revamped it asjust a brand studio, which was
really cool. We did a bunch ofstuff around that. So it I think
there's something in us ascreatives that's, like, yes, I'm
at this in house team, but I Istill have to feel like I'm
(07:07):
operating in a creative silo.
Kathryn (07:09):
Totally. Totally. That makes sense.
Will (07:10):
Yes. So speaking of that, that's a really great transition
to our next question, which iswhat are some of the biggest
challenges working creativelyat, like, large corporate
companies where most of thedecisions maybe are driven by
data or by numbers rather than,like, what we tend to think
drives creative is, like,creative, artistic choices.
Right? Things that are in ourminds that make us feel good.
(07:32):
Mhmm.
Like, how do you navigate thatspace?
Mike (07:35):
Well, I would say that I I I navigated it. I don't know
that I successfully navigated itall the time. It really depends
on the business partner or theexecutive that you're you're
working with or trying to sellideas to. We had some that just,
like, got it. You know, they hadbackground yep, absolutely.
Go for it. I trust you. Moreoften than not, it was a lot of
(08:00):
risk averse decision making andkind of like strategy by
committee. And so it was hard.You kinda have to build this
bubble of yourselves ascreatives and, like, you know,
kinda we're all in the trenchestogether, so to speak.
We're in this, and we're gonnaband together. We're gonna do
our best. We're gonna and you itabsolutely is imperative that
(08:22):
you have a creative lead,executive creative director,
creative director, whatever, whois willing to go in and try to
sell through the hard stuff andis willing to, like, talk the
talk with those executives. Andwhat's interesting is, Will, you
just mentioned that, we asartists, we like well, the
creative should be, you know,the the end all be all final
(08:43):
decision maker. And I agree withthat.
And I think what I've learned isthat most executives feel the
same way, but their preferenceof creative is vastly different
than ours. Their exposure towhat's out there, the time that
they spent with it is is not asdeep and seasoned as ours is,
and so they're not ascomfortable with things that are
(09:03):
new. I found that the more thatwe expose them and the more we
kinda took them on a journeywith us and walked them through
and used them as collaboratorsas opposed to, like, you know,
the emperor kinda with his thumbhesitating to decide whether we
live or die.
Kathryn (09:16):
Yeah. Yeah.
Mike (09:16):
It it was a lot more effective. So a lot of, like,
upwards education and helpingthem understand what we do.
Kathryn (09:22):
I like the phrase upwards education. That makes
sense. Yeah. Yeah.
Will (09:26):
Yeah. One of the things I think you mentioned, I don't
know when we were talking, butthe way executives think about
whether or not a piece ofcreative or something creative
is going to work is kind ofbased on what the return is
going to be.
Mike (09:42):
Absolutely.
Will (09:43):
So how do you navigate maybe those conversations? Do
you also, as a creative, have tostart thinking about that as
you're making it?
Mike (09:50):
Oh, absolutely. And it's like it's hard because you feel
like a little bit of your souldies at that point. Yeah. And I
say I think that's kind of oneof the risks of going in house
is you have to accept the factthat the end of the day, you
have to do what they want you todo. I mean, that's true
anywhere.
They're your clients. They'repaying you. But you have this,
like, you know, that that famoustalk of f you, pay me. Yeah.
(10:12):
Yeah.
You don't have that in house.And so you don't have that
currency to kind of, like, holdover their head. And so it's
like, well, I am paying you.Just do it. And, so I feel like
a lot of what that is isunderstanding the very real or
very big reality that you can doeverything you want, but you it
might be in vain.
(10:33):
And that's hard, but I thinkonce you come to grips with
that, it's easier to start toplan your creative around that
and use it as anotherconstraint.
Kathryn (10:39):
Mhmm. I get what you mean. I think I I heard from my
mentor recently that there wasthis idea that, like, if there's
ever a time where you feel likeyou're you're not empowered, but
you need to be able to saysomething that, like, maybe the
work's really stressful on yourteam or whatever it might be,
Like, he said to always try toapproach it from the the common
ground that you both wanna makethe work the best it can
(11:02):
possibly be. And so when youcome at it from that level
playing field, it it removessome of the, like, the bottled
up emotions that we have of,like, the stress of it all and
being, like, this is affectingme because x y z. It's more
like, you know, this isaffecting the project.
Here's why it's affecting theproject. Here's how it's
negatively impacting your budgetover time, and here's how we can
(11:25):
make it better. Here's the theprovided solution. We already
have it on the table. So what doyou think?
And it's like, if you come toall it's it's sad that we have
to, like, prepare so much ofthat to, like, then be like,
okay. Now we're I'm gonna givethis whole spiel and, like but
it is, it is putting everybodyon the same playing field there
(11:45):
in in some way. Whether or notthey accept it or they, like, is
a whole different question. ButI think it's like trying to meet
them what they're where they'reat, like, from thinking about it
from if they're only thinkingabout the numbers, then you have
to come at it from thatstandpoint too, which is hard
because I don't think creativesare taught that. So, yeah, it's
an interesting interesting idea.
Will (12:05):
Yeah. I think our dog, agrees with you.
Mike (12:08):
Yeah. I was like, say
Will (12:09):
dog barking. Yeah.
Mike (12:10):
I'm gonna go to the animation expo. Come on, Rex.
Kathryn (12:12):
Yeah. Yeah. I did not know we were gonna have a a dog
presenter today. That'sexciting. Yeah.
Mike (12:17):
Well, what you were saying, Catherine, about that
idea is it it just kinda givesit it conjures up this image in
my head of, like, a strategiccurrency exchange. Right? Like,
strategic goal for the executiveis bottom line, is return on
investment. Is is it effective?Is it communicating what we
want?
And is it not gonna put us inhot water and a cancel culture
and everything like that, whichis totally fair. You know,
(12:38):
they're worried about the brand.They're worried about, board and
and shareholders and everything.We as creatives, we don't think
that matters because we're just,like, art is pure. Run with it.
Trust the gut. Like, you'll beso much happier. Yes. But you
have to be willing to put yourideas and your thoughts through
that strategic currency exchangeand see where they're coming
(13:00):
from. I I spent too long atlarge corporations trying to,
like, prove that I was right andseeing them as, like, the
obstacle rather than a teammate.
Yeah. I mean, sure, theirsalaries are massively bigger
than mine. But to be fair,they're also a a lot more
familiar with their businessthan I am. And they're the ones
(13:22):
who will take the heat if itultimately fails or succeeds.
Will (13:25):
So Right.
Kathryn (13:25):
It is under their responsibility.
Mike (13:27):
And so the the more I kinda let go of that, like,
creative, like, purity, whichsounds terrible to say. I'm
like, ugh.
Kathryn (13:35):
I know what you mean. Yeah. I'm
Mike (13:36):
so smurmy.
Will (13:37):
You know?
Mike (13:37):
But, like, the more I let go of that, the more I was,
like, the more I was happy. And,actually, the more freedom I
felt like I got because theytrusted that I was there to help
them and just kinda see theirvision come to life. I was a
problem solver with them insteadof just, like,
Will (13:51):
a pain
Mike (13:51):
on their neck.
Kathryn (13:52):
Yeah. It it kinda leads, I think, to this question
of, like, you know, do you haveany advice for clients who are
trying to get this work doneand, like, how you know, if
we're if we're trying to meetthem where they're at, like, how
can they help to meet wherewe're at and come to an
understanding there to kindabuild that trust that you're
talking about?
Mike (14:10):
Yeah. I think I think there's a lot of just a lack of
understanding from how hard whatwe do actually is. You know,
they they come to us and theysay, here's a brief. Here's your
budget. They come back for thereview 1 or whatever, and they
don't know everything that'shappened in there and the vast
amount of people that have beeninvolved, the hundreds of people
from preproduction to productionto whatever that have been along
(14:33):
the way.
And, helping them understandthat it's not just like we're
sitting around, you know, with alittle Nerf Poop going, like,
yeah. Isn't creative fun?
Kathryn (14:43):
You know?
Mike (14:43):
Like, let's spend their money now and get some sushi.
Kathryn (14:45):
You know, I am getting, like, flashbacks though to a
time where at at at our oldoffice, we used to make, like,
little paper airplanes and,like, send them to each other
across the desk. So maybe thathappened once. But There's some
Mike (14:58):
of that for sure, but we would, we never did this. But
now that I'm thinking about it,like, why didn't I ever probably
because they didn't have thetime. But if even just the
invite of saying, like, hey,executive, why don't you come
sit down on the brainstormingsession? We're terribly afraid
of that as creatives, and, youknow, that's a risky move. Yeah.
They can derail it, but you cansay, why don't you come, see how
(15:18):
the process works? If you haveany extra input, go ahead. And
and you could do it totally as,like, a, you know, not the real,
like, meat and potatoes part ofthe process.
Kathryn (15:28):
Right. Right.
Mike (15:29):
But get them involved early on and help them
understand what they're lookingat, and it piques their interest
and then helps them feel moretied to you and committed to you
and you to them.
Kathryn (15:38):
That's a great point because we
Will (15:40):
So but but I wanna caution here. Mhmm. Or but so there's 2
things. Okay. I wanna cautionthat sometimes, yeah, you
mentioned derail the process.
But, I mean, even more so, theymight come at it from, like, an
emotional place where you'reyou're gonna ruin my business if
you go that way. You know what Imean? Like, that that kind of
(16:00):
emotional tie.
Kathryn (16:01):
That ties to, like, us saying, like, stay curious, not
defensive. Yeah. Right? Like,the but
Will (16:06):
So there's one. But but then the other thing I would say
is that they might not have thetime. And I think that's a big
like, a lot of the times,executives aren't thinking I
should devote some time to this.
Kathryn (16:17):
Right. But that's the thing. They have to they have to
see the value in the time. Ithink that's it. Right?
So they're like because becauseotherwise, they're like, oh, I
don't have time for this. Butit's like, no. You you need to
be a part of this. Yeah. Becauseit, like, the case in point, a I
remember a project we worked onwhere, like, we we got, like, I
think, 3 we got to the animationstage, and that was the first
(16:39):
time that, like, the vicepresident of the company had
seen the project.
Will (16:42):
Yeah.
Kathryn (16:42):
And they were like, what is this?
Mike (16:44):
Yeah.
Kathryn (16:45):
And, like and then you have to be like, okay. Well, we
gotta explain everything aboutit. We gotta, like, you know,
because you didn't get involvedeven at the beginning. Yeah.
Like, and and it felt like shewas already pretty defensive
about it and just feeling like Idon't understand the value of
what I'm looking at.
And we put a lot of time andmoney and energy into it. So I
agree to your point that, likeYeah. There there has to be a a
(17:09):
push for seeing the like, havingexecutive level or, like, you
know, the final the finaldecision makers having a say
Will (17:18):
in the process earlier on. Yeah. Yeah. There's also I mean,
I've heard from a couple peoplenow during this expo that, like,
there are sometimes people inbetween who are afraid of
showcasing work that's too earlybecause they quote won't get it.
Right?
Like there's this idea, I couldnever show this to Ted because
(17:40):
Ted's not gonna get it. Ted. Andif he sees it too early, he
might just can the wholeproject. Yeah. Right?
And so, like, there's a fineline
Mike (17:50):
Sure.
Will (17:50):
That you're kind of navigating.
Mike (17:52):
Yeah. You definitely have to know who your executives are
and when it's valuable to bringthem in. And you could you could
scale that according to whatevertheir capability is. We were
doing one thing at Amazon whereour s team member, our very
senior leader, had a backgroundin 3 d production and 3 d
animation. He was totallycomfortable looking at
wireframes and knew what it was.
Mhmm. Once I found that out, Iwas like, let's not polish this.
(18:13):
Let's send him a
Will (18:14):
Let's
Mike (18:14):
send him a wireframe. He'll get it. Right. Right. And
he did.
He was like, okay. I see whatyou're doing. The timing feels
great. Just make sure that yourlighting is right. And I was
like, this is amazing.
Yeah. I was super lucky in thatcase. Right. It can very much go
south. But I think if if wehonestly feel like especially in
in internal corporate, like,environment, if we we're gonna
position ourselves as a partner,we need to treat them like a
(18:36):
partner Yes.
Not as a gatekeeper. Yep. And indoing that, I think a lot of
their defenses will come downbecause I think traditionally
the relationship has been veryus and them. And hopefully,
they'll see your transparencyand your willingness to kind of
open up earlier on in theprocess as a sign of your trust
in them, and maybe, hopefully,it'll be reciprocated.
Kathryn (18:56):
Yeah. So I'm curious because I know we're actually
Will (18:59):
Yeah. We're really close to time.
Kathryn (19:00):
We're really close to time already. It kinda flew by.
Mike (19:02):
Yeah. Sorry. I'm a I'm I'm a very Gabby person.
Kathryn (19:05):
No. No. This is perfect. We I mean, you answered
the question. So we're we'reright on track.
We're on budget.
Mike (19:12):
We're on schedule. Exactly.
Will (19:13):
Yeah. Yeah.
Kathryn (19:14):
That's what happens when you just work
Will (19:20):
with a partner. Exactly. Yeah. There's trust here. Yes.
Yes. Yeah. So I I'm
Kathryn (19:20):
I guess I'm curious, like, if, you know, if I I think
a lot of people are gonna beinterested in in reaching out to
you and trying to connect andand having these deeper
conversations, whether it's onthe client side or talking
about, like, the internal thatwe deal with on
Will (19:33):
on the
Kathryn (19:34):
personal side. Like, how can people reach out to you?
Where would you want them to go?
Mike (19:37):
Yeah. I'm I'm very open with my personal information. My
presentation yesterday, I put mycell phone number and my email
up there. You know, reach out tome. My personal email address is
mike@mikemorrisdot tv.
You can put my phone number onthe link to this if you want to.
I'll make sure you guys have it.It's I'm I'm very open. And if I
don't pick up right away, it'sprobably because I have ADHD
(19:58):
and, you know, I'll get back toyou. But Or
Kathryn (20:00):
you're at an expo.
Will (20:01):
You know?
Mike (20:01):
It happens. Or or my wife is the first in the queue
because I haven't responded toher sooner than that. But, yeah,
I would I'm I'd love to talkwith people and connect with
people, so I'm more than happyto hop on a call or whatever
people wanna do.
Kathryn (20:14):
That's awesome.
Will (20:15):
Thank you. Mike Morris, you've been such a pleasant
ginger to talk to.
Mike (20:20):
Yes. Goal achieved.
Kathryn (20:22):
Yes. Yes. Thank you for being
Mike (20:23):
here, really. For having me. It's been a pleasure. I've
loved getting to know you guys.
Kathryn (20:26):
Yeah. We'll do a little round of claps. Yeah. We'll put
the the sound the soundapplause.
Will (20:32):
This episode is
Kathryn (20:33):
probably It's as if everyone was right there.
Mike (20:34):
Yeah. Just do the air horn
Will (20:35):
when it's cracked. Was created.
Kathryn (20:38):
It's always cool. Dotcom.
Mike (20:40):
Yeah. It is. It's never it's never tagged.
Will (20:42):
Yeah. Stay creative.
Kathryn (20:44):
Oh, that's perfect. Cool. Awesome.
Mike (20:45):
Well, best of luck to you guys. In the
Will (20:46):
next time.
Kathryn (20:47):
Thank you.
Will (20:51):
Bye.
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