Missions in Ukraine

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dave (00:00):
Hey, what's going on, everybody?
We are here for Behind thePulpit.
It is June 23rd.
It is like a thousand degreesoutside.
We've got our special show foryou.
We are hydrated.
We are ready to go.
We're going to be talking aboutwhat's going on in the news.
We're going to be talking abouta big weekend that was really
full of headlines.

(00:20):
We've got a special guesttoday, and we may even learn a
little Russian on our program.
And we have a fabulous co-hosttoday in light of the fact that
that Pastor Bob's still onvacation.
Amy Huber is here to co-hostour show for today.
Thanks for coming on, Amy.

Amy (00:37):
Thank you for inviting me.
Appreciate it.

Dave (00:39):
Wonderful to have you as

Amy (00:40):
always.

Dave (00:42):
And our guest of honor, the wonderful preacher from
yesterday, Dr.
John White is in the house.
How do you say hello inRussian, John?
Здравствуйте.
Здравствуйте.
Good to have you with us.

(01:08):
Thanks for bringing the wordyesterday.
We're going to do a little deepdive into what it's like to be
a missionary sending church andhow does that make us a healthy
church as well.
So a lot of stuff happening inthe show today and we will have
some fun.
So tune in, like and subscribe.
We're here for you.
So, guys, are you staying cool?

(01:30):
Are you dying outside like therest of us?
You got your sunscreen

Amy (01:34):
on?
What's going on?
Yesterday was pretty warm, andthe mighty group that played
pickleball yesterday wasmelting, but we had some great
games out anyway.
I

Dave (01:44):
heard there was some

Amy (01:45):
huddling under a tree.
Yes, we were all crammed forevery space of shade available.
It was great.

Dave (01:52):
And, John, I understood that your car was not exactly
keeping cool in this weather.
You had a little issue there?

John White (01:59):
Yeah, it broke on its way up US 1.
But fortunately, our friendsand hosts where we're staying
were able to get it into agarage.
And it's been fixed now for acouple of days.
And we're thankful for anotherfamily in the church which lent
us their car.

Dave (02:13):
So

John White (02:14):
we've been provided for.
We're very thankful.

Dave (02:15):
Yeah.
But I understood the mechanictold John, your water pump
exploded, which I've never heardthat happen before, but that
should be an interesting thingto look at.
But good to have you with us,John.
And we got some things to talkabout.
So, Tim, why don't we juststart with what's going on in
the news?
All right.

(02:39):
It's been since the beginningof April, Noah, when we've been
tracking with who is going to beat the top of the deep here
with the NBA finals and Noah andI have been kind of watching
the Pacers recently going maybemaybe they have a chance and if
you watch the game last nightyou know what happened in the
first quarter what'd you thinkabout that man Tyrese Halberton

(03:01):
yeah he hit the deck

Noah (03:02):
yeah I felt horrible for him he's been playing so hard
all playoffs long and just tosee it go that way in the game
seven yeah

Dave (03:11):
oh His dad was just really struggling with that.
But the Pacers still put up agood fight, but ultimately it
was OKC this year who ended upon top.
Hey, they deserved it.
Young team, talented team.
I think they had 68 wins.
I think they had, like,whatever is the top amount of
wins in a whole season,including the playoffs.

(03:31):
They were just...
on fire.
John, you like basketball?
I do.
All right.
Were you watching last night?
I was.
Okay, cool.
I had a little Shea graphic toput up here.
Evidently, he hit some kind ofrecord.
And here's who the new champis.
So Shai Gilgis-Alexander is thefirst player in NBA history to

(03:52):
win not only the league MVP, thescoring title, the conference
finals MVP, but also the finalsMVP.
So There we go.
There's the new champ of theNBA.
Well deserved.
OKC on top.
I believe that's the first timeOKC has won.
the finals although they usedto be called the seattle
supersonics and then changed uhto the oklahoma city thunder

(04:17):
they almost got there i think in2011 or something like that but
they couldn't quite get it donebut this year was their year so
do you have a favorite team youusually like to watch or just
kind of want to watch good welli'm

John White (04:28):
from chicago so i follow the chicago bulls but
they haven't been good for awhile yeah i enjoy a good game
and it was good well it's been agood series anyway

Dave (04:35):
so who's the goat in your mind is there overall is there
Well,

John White (04:39):
it has to be Michael Jordan.
Okay, good.
I'm a little biased, I know.

Dave (04:44):
He is in a league of his own, in my opinion, too.
So that's the big news.
But we have a couple other newsstories to talk about as well.
So first one is pretty bigweekend in the Middle East.
We had, I think, a prettysurprising news story come out
Saturday night where thePresident of the United States

(05:05):
authorized to be directlyinvolved in the conflict with
Iran that Israel has beenengaging with.
Al Mohler had a good articleabout that this morning that I
thought was a helpfulperspective from a Christian
worldview.
He said this, The Americanairstrikes against strategic
nuclear installations in Iranrepresent a fundamental change

(05:26):
in U.S.
policy and may well lead to awider conflict that could spiral
out of control.
The risks are huge, but thedanger was clear.
Trump acted decisively andAmerican forces did what they
alone could do.
Powerful and stealthy B-2bombers dropped as many as 15
massive GBU-57 bombs on Iran'skey nuclear installations in

(05:49):
Fordow as well as well as acouple other cities.
So huge news Saturday night.
I think that was something thattook most people by surprise.
And that's a really difficultthing to work through as a
Christian.
We're peacemakers.
We are people of the ultimatepeacemaker himself.
Although in the Christianworldview, there is something
called just war theory.

(06:09):
And we want to look at itthrough that lens and as well.
So what was this justified?
Is this an okay use of forcefor that matter?
I think Al Mohler had a prettygood case to be made about that
this morning.
He said, There are certainconditions that have to be
satisfied for just war.

(06:30):
So the military action had tobe defensive rather than
offensive.
And you could make the casethat Iran has essentially
through proxies started thisoffensive against us.
The action must be lawfully orauthorized.
And that's the big debate inour country.
Did he do this within the realmof what the president can do or
should he have gone throughCongress first?
That's a raging debate rightnow.

(06:53):
Third, the action must beproportionate to the threat.
And so this was a very limitedattack.
And he did tell people toevacuate Tehran.
And he must seek to establish astable peace.
And as soon as it was over,that's what the president was
asking for.
So you could make a case thatthis falls within the boundaries

(07:17):
of just war.
I think both left and righthave agreed that a nuclear Iran
could be a problem for the worldbecause of some of the
statements that they made.
So that's something that we'regoing to be watching in the
news.
I don't know if you guys weresurprised Saturday night as I
was watching that headline, butthat was a pretty big story
coming out of America.

Amy (07:36):
Yeah, it was definitely escalating what's been happening
already.
And my heart goes out for theIranian people.
They are in a, I guess, underthe tyranny of a regime that is
really volatile.
So I know people who areministering directly to the
Persian people.
So my heart is aching for them.

(07:58):
Many refugees have come out ofthe area and are very concerned
about trying to reach theirloved ones who are still there.
And of course, for the peopleof Israel, it's a very
complicated situation, for sure.

Dave (08:11):
Yeah.
I mean, in 1979, things reallychanged over there.
It used to be a very differentcountry with the Shah, and it's
been 46 years under the currentregime, and it's been kind of
brutal for the Christians inIran to live in this particular
environment.

(08:31):
So we need to pray for theChristians in Iran.
We need to pray for the churchin Iran, which actually is
thriving.
And we hope that even thatwhich was meant for evil,
because God is so amazing andgood, can be turned around for
good.
So big story.
We wanted to highlight thatfrom a Christian worldview
perspective.

Amy (08:50):
Absolutely.
Now, I don't want tonecessarily make light of it,
but if anyone saw the Top GunMaverick movie did anyone notice
the uh parallel storyline

Dave (09:01):
i didn't think of that but now that you mention it

Amy (09:03):
huh right it's almost like it was a prophetic movie was
sent on a mission to trainpilots to uh defuse the nuclear
threat right

Dave (09:15):
I forgot about

Tim (09:15):
that.
Except that was, I guess inthat movie, it was clearly, I
think, Russia that they were.

Amy (09:19):
Was

Tim (09:20):
it?
I think so.
It was Russia without saying.
I don't think they wanted tosay it was Russia, but I think.

John White (09:25):
Yeah, they didn't ever reveal who it was.
I'm

Tim (09:28):
pretty sure it was Russia.

John White (09:29):
But yeah, I saw it.
But still.
That's what I thought.
But you know.
Really?
That's

Dave (09:33):
what I tend to think about.
It's quite the parallel.
Threats.

Amy (09:35):
It's a parallel.
Yes.

Dave (09:38):
Amy, bringing in Hollywood here.
Shout out to Michelle Clemmy.
I know you love her.
I know you love Top Gun and TopGun Maverick, so that's

Amy (09:47):
a little...
Who doesn't love that one?
Wow, nice.
So nostalgic.

Tim (09:52):
Tom Cruise.
So which one was better?
Real quick.
Which movie was better?
I'm interested.

Amy (09:56):
Without a doubt, the second one.
Maverick.
That's my opinion.
I would agree.
Would you?

Noah (10:01):
Noah?
Uh-oh.
Cinematically, yes.
But there's something about theoriginal story.
Yeah.

Tim (10:08):
Something about the original.

Noah (10:09):
Tom Cruise in his prime.
I don't know.

Unknown (10:12):
Hmm.

Tim (10:13):
Talk to me, Goose.

Dave (10:14):
All right.
Both great movies.
Next news story.
This is something that isrelated to, again, the Alliance
for Defending Freedom.
They are the people who aredefending First Choice and our
own Amy Huber with the currentsituation going on in New
Jersey.
Last week in Tennessee, therewas a SCOTUS decision that came
down that was, I think, a winfor Christian parents and those

(10:39):
who affirm the the sacredness ofmarriage and the two gender
binary.
So the case here was that it isokay for Tennessee as a state
to restrict harm upon childrenthrough the use of gender
transition drugs and surgeries.
And it was more of a state'srights case, but I think the

(11:04):
decision has some broadimplications, not just for
Tennessee, but maybe otherstates who follow suit who want
to restrict the ability to makethese life-altering,
irreversibly damaging types ofsurgeries that they're
performing on children so ithought that was a pretty
significant decision that cameout here at the end of june for

(11:24):
for the issue of um gendertransition so i think that
that's a good thing um i thinkwe should rejoice with that i
don't know if you guys saw thatdecision any thoughts or
comments on that one

Amy (11:38):
no i agree i think that was a big win and uh just

Dave (11:42):
um

Amy (11:43):
a win for families in general.
And you mentioned the movementof Amy Huber's first choice case
to the Supreme Court.
And I just want to encourageour dear friend.
Yeah, I'm the other Amy Huber.
So our friend Amy Huber andfirst choice.
So that's definitely an answerto prayer, but we're still

(12:04):
praying that through for sure.

Dave (12:07):
The ADF doing good work.
The next news story, I thoughtwe could just turn to John for a
little bit more um maybe on theground kind of commentary about
what is happening in ukraine ofcourse we know three years ago
russia invaded it's been prettycatastrophic there was a huge
refugee crisis and even you hadto flee the country with your

(12:29):
dear family and i thought maybeyou could give us a perspective
um from an insider about What'sgoing on in Ukraine and what's
going on specifically with thechurch in Ukraine and the
seminary that you're associatedwith and kind of wrap together
who you are and what you do andthen tell us a little bit of an

(12:49):
update for that part of theworld in the news.

John White (12:53):
Okay.
I think it'd be easier to firsttalk sort of geopolitically
first and then talk more aboutthe church and our ministry.
So unfortunately, really, theconflict started in 2014 when
Russia used, shall we say, morehybrid war methods.
First to take Crimea, they hada naval base down there, so they

(13:18):
did it pretty much without afight.
And then they started takingeastern Ukraine, which is where
I was living at the time.
My wife is from easternUkraine, near the city of
Donetsk, and I used to work atDonetsk Christian And eventually
Ukraine reached sort of astandstill in terms of the
fighting.
It became a frozen conflict in2014, early 2015.

(13:40):
But just to give youperspective, my school, Donetsk
Christian University, became aRussian military barracks and
people, you know.
The fighting continued, butmore like shots between
trenches, that kind of thing.
Kind of World War I-esque.
It

Dave (13:58):
seemed like we haven't seen this kind of ground
invasion since way back in theday.
It seemed like how the news wasfor my grandfather, right?
So it was kind of eerie there.
Okay, so we start way backthen.

John White (14:13):
Yeah, and to be honest, before that, Ukraine had
a pretty good relationship withRussia.
I would say there were peoplethat maybe favored, say, doing
business with Europe and somebusiness with Russia, and most
people were fine with that.
You know, where do you dobusiness?
But there was this polarizinghappening, and Russia really

(14:33):
manipulated the situation.
And to be honest, That'simportant because it really
turned just about all Ukrainiansagainst Russia.
It didn't matter your ethnicbackground.
Like, for example, my wife ishalf Ukrainian, half Russian,
and just everybody turnedagainst Russia.
And I think that was the onlyreason.
So there have been, what, eightyears from 2014 to 2022 when

(14:55):
the full scale invasion happenedthat helped Ukraine prepare
themselves for this hugeinvasion where it was just
obvious it wasn't this hybridthing where Russia was trying to
have the And so Ukraine, Ithink, surprised the world by
surviving.
Russia was expecting to win thewar in three days through their
creativity.

(15:16):
I think we just saw thatrecently with Ukraine's one and
a half year project to sendthese drones in all across
Russia.
And they destroyed one third ofthe Russian bombers.
And so basically, in recenttimes, Russia is really angry
about that.
And they've been using dronesto hit as many of the large
cities as they can.
can in Ukraine I get updatesfrom my colleagues in Ukraine

(15:39):
about you know cities gettinghit drones coming that kind of
thing especially recently but ifwe look at the big picture
although there have been kind ofthese big moments which you may
have heard of right now the thebattle is fairly static Russia
is losing many lives by sendingtheir soldiers forward they're

(16:00):
gaining meters maybe hundreds ofmeters of territory but for the
most part not much has been Ofcourse, there was hope for a
ceasefire that hasn't happened.
And so to be honest, humanlyspeaking, looking at things, I
wouldn't expect it to endanytime soon.
Just

Dave (16:17):
some statistics, you can verify this, but...
There's about 12 millionUkrainians requiring
humanitarian aid this year.
About 10 million have beendisplaced as refugees.
Six million have fled abroad.
I guess you'd be part of thatgroup.
30,000 to 40,000 civilians havebeen killed and tens of

(16:38):
thousands injured on top ofthat.
And then, of course, theinfrastructure damage issue.
1.5 million homes damaged,3,600 schools, 2,000 healthcare
facilities hit.
So devastation over the lastthree years there.
Yeah, it's so, wow.

John White (16:57):
Typically, Russia has advanced when they have
literally razed cities to theground.
When there's no place forUkrainian soldier to hide
anymore, that's typically whenthey retreat.
So there are these horrifyingpictures that look like the
landscape of the moon.
And that's what Russia's beenconquering for the most part.

Dave (17:16):
And then move back, retreat back to the next big...
And so the Ukrainians

John White (17:18):
back and to save their soldiers, save the people
that they can, evacuate people.
And so, yeah, yeah.
It's horrifying, but Ukrainehas been holding the Russians
back.

Dave (17:28):
Yeah.
Do you think the ultimate prizeis Kiev?
Or what do you think is goingto be...
When will this end?
What do you think Putin reallywants to...
achieve here?
Oh,

John White (17:42):
he wants all of Ukraine.
The whole thing.
Yeah, yeah.
That's what he wants.
I mean, he's always, I'm sure,calculating what he can get for
what cost, although just his, itappears that Russia's view of
losing life is not the view thatwe have.
I mean, they've already, interms of casualties, that would
be dead and wounded, theyestimate it's already over a

(18:05):
million people.
And I know, I've read, youknow, one of the generals, top
generals of Ukraine said anynormal army would have stopped.
I mean, the casualty rate isjust, isn't it worth it?
They're not winning enough.

Tim (18:15):
Historically, that's pretty...
on par for Russia, I believe,right?
Because if you look at WorldWar II, the Russian casualties
are through the roof compared toeveryone else, I believe.

John White (18:24):
Yes, that's true.
Also because, well, there aremany factors.
As I understand it, and I'm notan expert on World War II, but
there was a good while when boththe Germans and the Russians
basically had orders to neverretreat.
And if you never retreat, yourcasualties would just be
horrific.

Tim (18:43):
With the Battle of St.
Petersburg and all that, Ithink.

John White (18:46):
Yeah, and in Stalin As I understand it, that was the
first time the Soviets wereallowed to retreat and they won
the battle because of it, youknow.
So, yes, unfortunately, it hasbeen the MO of or at least the
methodology that Russia has usedfor a while.

Dave (19:02):
Well, can I ask a more personal question?
Yes.
What do you remember?
about three years ago when thefull invasion began.
What was that like for you?

John White (19:10):
Well, I wasn't actually in Ukraine when it
started.
Oh,

Dave (19:14):
you were over here?

John White (19:15):
Yes.
So what happened was beginningof December, to be honest, the
warning signs were there.
We already evacuated once fromDonetsk.
So to be honest, I was alreadyhad a feeling that something was
going to happen.

Dave (19:28):
Wasn't a total shock to you.

John White (19:30):
But my teaching ended a little bit early for the
semester.
And so we came back.
We were planning earlier, butwe came back even earlier.
even earlier, to celebrateChristmas with my parents in the
Chicago area.
And our organization,WorldVenture, has a company that
gives us advice and can helpmissionaries evacuate if they
need to.
And so we were on this Zoomcall with all our missionaries

(19:50):
and being given information.
And they told us that if thishappens, you need to be ready.
First of all, the airportsaren't going to work.
If you have a car, you candrive west.
But maybe you'll run out ofgas.
Maybe there won't be any gasavailable.
So you need to be willing

Dave (20:07):
to take anything.
Maybe your water pump willexplode or something.

John White (20:09):
Yeah, maybe.
You need to take everything youhave on your back and walk
across snowy fields.
And I had, I think, anine-year-old at the time.
Oh, my word.
And I'm thinking there's noway.
My goodness.
So we were going to go back inJanuary.
We canceled that and waited,hoping that things would calm
down.
And actually, in the past,Russia had threatened at the

(20:30):
border doing training exercisesand had backed off before.
Although things were lookingworse and worse, to be honest.
And all of our missionarieswere told to leave by the end of
January.
It was February 24th when theinvasion happened.
Many of our other missionarieswere in different parts of
Europe at the time.
And so that's what happened.

Dave (20:50):
So in the providence of God, you had already had your
family in a safe place and youhaven't returned, though you
continued to teach in an onlineformat.
Yes, that's

John White (20:58):
right.
That's right.

Unknown (21:00):
Mm-hmm.

Dave (21:00):
What do you wish the world understood about the daily
reality happening in Ukraineright now?

John White (21:06):
Well, I definitely wish...
On the one hand, people wouldmaybe better understand how
horrible what Russia is doing,that there really aren't two
sides of it.
I mean, they're literallytrying to commit genocide.
They want to take all ofUkraine.
They steal Ukrainian childrenbecause they have population

(21:29):
problems, are putting them inRussian orphanages to make them
Russian children.
That doesn't mean all Russiansapprove of this.
I mean, it's under adictatorship.
And I know of some Christianbrothers and sisters that are
against this war, but there'sjust so little they can do, you
know?
But just, there are no two waysabout it.
And I do understand why peoplecan be, can misunderstand.

(21:53):
Of course, it's a differentcountry, different world, but
also Russia intentionally haspropaganda all the time.
And it gets through to us, evenin, I think, in ways we might
not realize.
Like one way, at least it'skind of occurred to me is this
whole idea, which I think mostof us think that Russia's
winning.
When most military expertswould say if you lose, say,

(22:14):
1,000 soldiers a day to gain 100meters of ground, that's
losing.
So again, I think we need to becareful in what we understand,
but it is horrible.
I know many wars are gray.
There are points on both sides,but Russia did this, and it
doesn't make Ukraine perfectlyinnocent or they do everything

(22:34):
right.
I mean, they're a humangovernment led by humans,
although I do have a greatrespect for President Zelensky.
So that would be thegeopolitical side.
Of course, I would also like,as I shared a bit during the
sermon, to know that despitethis, God is at work.
You know, God works eventhrough evil times, through evil

(22:55):
people, and so many people arecoming to know Christ.
The Protestant Church, which inUkraine has been stronger than
most of the former Soviet Union.
I like to joke it's the BibleBelt of the former Soviet Union.
It's really Ukraine.
And so there has been animpact, but I would say there's
an even broader impact today,even since 2014, because since
then, the government has been insome ways so weak and dealing

(23:18):
with such, you know, hugeproblems, that they've been more
open to help.
And so evangelical Protestantshave been doing all sorts of
things that they never beforewould do.
They have an influence insupporting the soldiers, whether
that's as a chaplain or helpingthrough evacuations and
different things like this.
They've gone and helped rebuildplaces.

(23:39):
They offer places for displacedpeople to move to.
A lot have moved.
Some moved to my seminarycampus, some to retreat centers.
So the evangelical church Andhas done amazing things.
God is opening doors andopening hearts.
Of course, when people arefacing life and death, they're
interested in the gospel.
And of course, they may needfood and medicine.

(24:00):
And I think Christians areoffering those as well.
But many need spiritual answersbecause it's such a hard
situation.

Dave (24:07):
So small world.
Yesterday, John was speaking inone of our services and we had
visitors from Ukraine.
missionaries in Ukraine.
A local pastor and his familywere here just by happenstance,
just by chance.
They knew one family inMillington, and they were just
coming to worship.
That's it.
There was no idea that, oh,John White's going to be our

(24:29):
guest speaker.
He's going to be talking aboutUkraine.
He actually is part of theseminary program.
No, they didn't have no idea.
Of course, they're familiarwith your seminary, but They
were blown away by the fact thatthey come to visit our church
just for encouragement andnourishment from the word, and
they get a special treat with aspeaker who's using Russian
words and talking about whatGod's doing in Ukraine and has a

(24:51):
heart for their homeland.
And I thought it was reallycool to hear from him and what
God is doing through him.
So he talked about how they'repastoring this church.
And then there was the, youknow, the refugees who left and
they said their church was likecompletely depleted.
There was like 150 people.
And then there was like 12people the next week.
And they said, should we stillhave a church?
Like, do we need to do this?

(25:12):
And then he said, the crazything is then the war kind of,
you know, started to be rampedup and, people started flooding
into his church and all 150seats filled up again with all
new people.
He had a completely new churchof people who wanted to connect
with God spiritually and get fedand they had a real desperate

(25:32):
hunger and thirst for the goodnews of Jesus.
And he and his wife and theirfamily has been experiencing a
great revival in their churchand a move of God as people are
really hungering after the Lordand seeking his strength and
seeking his sustaining grace.
And I thought that, wow, that'san untold story about what's

(25:54):
happening in Ukraine.
Do you feel like that story issomething that is happening in
multiple churches in Ukraine andthis is not an isolated thing
that he's experiencing but Godis on the move and in that would
you testify to that

John White (26:09):
yes I would say both you have new people come into
Christ especially as they becomedisplaced I know of I believe
they work in Kharkiv which isthe second largest city in
Ukraine and actually quite closeto the front lines it's a
pretty dangerous place

Dave (26:24):
it sounded very dangerous yes they were describing
explosions and things verynearby

John White (26:28):
yes I have more connections now in Kyiv the
capital.
And I know of multiplechurches, which yeah, like their
size is slightly bigger, butalmost all new people because
there's been this wave of thepeople in the East moving West.
So they've come to Kyiv.
Some of the people of Kyiv haveleft for safer places and God

(26:51):
is at work leading so manypeople to himself.
So yes.
Yeah.
I think that's a widely untold,but a wide and broad story.

Dave (26:59):
Yeah.
Very neat.

Amy (27:02):
I just want to say thank you for being a world partner
with us because you are, eventhough you're not physically
there at the moment, you havethe inside understanding of the
situation and can share thatwith us.
I think so easily we areblinded by what's the hottest or
the newest spotlight in thenews.

(27:22):
But the battle continues day byday.
But we're encouraged by whatGod is doing in the midst of the
darkness.
And thank you for being thatpartner.
or with us appreciate it

John White (27:34):
well I couldn't be there if Millington hadn't sent
me and I certainly did not signup for this if you know what I
mean I wanted to be a missionaryand God called me into
theological education especiallyto train Ukrainians and others
to do missions themselves Inever really expected to be
involved in a war or to answerquestions about military things

(27:55):
but you know I've been learningand trying to serve God in these
things as well so thank you foryour support and your

Dave (28:02):
encouragement.
coolest things you can do withyour time is read missionary

(28:27):
biographies.
Just go read a missionarybiography.
It doesn't even matter whichone.
Just pick one and read one.
They're really, really cool,really inspiring.
So you had quoted Hudson Taylorin your sermon yesterday, so it
kind of reminded me of when Iread this one.
This is Roger Steer's biographyof Hudson Taylor, A Man in
Christ.
Fascinating story of a guy who,you know, led by the Lord, just

(28:50):
wanted to make an impact andjust saw God meet needs in such
tangible ways and just trustedGod with a degree of faith that
I envy and I just...
I'm so encouraged by the factthat God is a promise-keeping
God.
He's the one who famously said,God's work done God's way will

(29:12):
never lack God's supply.
And you had a couple goodquotes from Hudson Taylor in
your sermon yesterday.
I'm not remembering off the topof my head.
Do you remember what they were?
I think

John White (29:22):
I can get close.
What was the ones you shared?
So he was a very humble man,especially considering all the
things that God did through him.
But he said it was somethinglike, I often think that God was
looking for someone smallenough and weak enough for him
to use, and he found me.
And the other one, he said,there are three stages of God's

(29:44):
work.
Impossible, difficult, anddone.
And that's what he saw.
God did that through him andhis colleagues in missionary
work.

Dave (29:54):
So speaking of things that feel impossible, a dissertation
can feel pretty overwhelmingand daunting.
So why don't you hold this upand tell us

John White (30:04):
what...
Sorry, I didn't bring a copy ofmy book.

Dave (30:05):
That's okay.
Tell us what your book isabout.

John White (30:07):
So I don't know if you can see that.
So yeah, It was my doctoraldissertation at Biola
University.
And so the name of it is TheFactors Behind the Ukrainian
Evangelical Missionary Surgefrom 1989 to 1999.
And to me, it's an amazingstory.
I've been wanting to perhapsrewrite it in a more popular

(30:30):
form.
And I have the copyright to doit in Ukrainian and Russian.
I've been wanting to do it, butunfortunately now is probably
not the time.
Because when I went to Ukraine,I had heard, one of the reasons
I was inspired to go wasbecause of missionaries from the
West seeing the amazingspiritual thirst people had for
the gospel, how communism haddenied that, how there was a

(30:54):
church that had survived, but alot of people didn't often talk
about them.
They more talked about what theWesterners were doing.
And as I worked for a number ofyears in Donetsk, my colleagues
told me, somebody needs to tellthe story of the Ukrainian
missionaries.
And then I ran into a fellowmissionary world venture.
And he said, yes, somebodyneeds to tell this story,

(31:14):
especially before the leaders ofthis Ukrainian movement pass
away.
And actually, I was even toldby my Ukrainian colleague that
the Ukrainian can't do it,because they'll be suspicious.
There'll be all these sort ofthings that it's good at a
little bit outsider, an Americanwho can speak the language
would do it.
So what I researched by talkingto people all around Ukraine,

(31:35):
as well as people located inRussia and other places, was
about this surge that hundredsof missionaries left Ukraine and
planted churches all acrossRussia, into Central Asia.
For them, as I said in thesermon, for many of them, when
they read the passage that weneed to bring the gospel to the
end of the earth, to them, theysaw that as Siberia.

(31:56):
And so they did.
For me, that's the end of theearth too, though.
We can agree with that.
I agree with them.
Yes, yes.
And to be honest, I think theyhad much more success in church
planting, leading people toChrist, than really Westerners
have had because they understoodthe culture.
At the time, everyone spokeRussian and many of them.

(32:18):
So this is the irony.
I started this research rightbefore and then through 2014
when the Russian attack started.
And the irony is the story thatI was learning and then I tried
to share in this book is howUkrainians have been this
incredible blessing to Russiansfor years and years, that many
of the churches in Russia areThey're pastored by Ukrainians

(32:42):
who've taken Russiancitizenship.
Leaders of denomination,they're Ukrainians.
And it's just so sad that thishas now happened where Russians
have done so many horriblethings to Ukrainians.
Of course, not all.
So this is their story.
A lot of really interestingquotes and ideas.
And so I could give you moredetails.

(33:02):
I hope that gives an idea.

Dave (33:03):
No, that's really cool.
I mean, when you do a deep diveinto a very small period of
history, at some point you startto...
get this thought, like, I knowmore about this than anyone else
on the planet right now, right?
So, I mean, you were in theweeds.
So if you really want to knowthe story, pick up John's book.
It's available on Amazon.
We would encourage you to checkout that story and appreciate

(33:25):
you writing that.
The verse that came to my mindwhen you were explaining that is
from Isaiah the prophet, wherein, of course, different
context, but it says, the peoplewho walked in darkness have
seen a great light.

Unknown (33:38):
Mm-hmm.

Dave (33:39):
And I think that that's a thing in history that keeps
repeating in Ukraine, in yourstory.
Well, very good.
Can I add one more thing?

John White (33:48):
Please.
Because it's not the light.
It's actually, I love this onequote.
But when communism was falling,there was a spiritual vacuum.
And these missionaries filledit.
Because so many people hadreally believed in communism.
And now they didn't know whatto believe.
It was the basis for theirwhole lives.
And this was the time that theyneeded to hear the gospel, to

(34:11):
have a new foundation for theirlife.
And I think that was, yeah.

Dave (34:15):
Well said.
Good.
Well, thank you, John.
We'll hear more about that injust a minute.

Tim (34:21):
So we have a question from the audience.
Now, it's aneschatology-related question
that to me seems like it mightbe a bit of a hardball.
So if you want to save it fornext week when Bob is here, We
can, but if you think you guyscan tackle it.

Dave (34:38):
Let's play hardball.

Tim (34:40):
Let's play hardball.
All right.

Dave (34:41):
If my degree at Dallas is worth anything, they taught me
some eschatology.

Tim (34:46):
All right.
Let's hear the question.
I was watching a sermon oneschatology.
Oh, my word.
Look at this

Dave (34:51):
question.

Tim (34:52):
And one of the verses used in the sermon caught my eye.
2 Thessalonians 2, 10 through12 says, And with all wicked
deception for those who areperishing because they refuse to
love the truth and so be saved.
Therefore, God sends them astrong delusion so that they may
believe what is false in orderthat all may be condemned who
did not believe the truth buthad pleasure in unrighteousness.

(35:13):
Deception is often seen as amain attribute of Satan, so I
was interested to see it beinglinked to God.
I guess my question would be ifyou guys could break this down,
and for those like me who maybe confused by this aspect of
God's character during the lastdays.

Speaker 03 (35:28):
Sure.
That's all you, Pastor

Dave (35:34):
Dave.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, we all thinkabout God as...
loving and merciful andgracious.
And that's really true.
It's probably only half thestory.
There's another few attributesof God about his justice and his
eternal character and hisholiness that we also need to
emphasize.
And it appears that Paul istalking about something called
judicial hardening.
So what judicial hardening is,is when a person has rejected

(35:58):
God and they have been opposedto God, that God gives them
over.
to their sin.
And this can have an especiallyhardening effect on them.
And it appears that Paul istalking about something in the
latter days that will occur thatone day there will be a strong

(36:20):
delusion that will be at theclimax of all of history where
people will be given over tothis lie and we think there's
probably going to be thisculminating figure known as the
antichrist and many people willbelieve in him and be deceived
by him and um god will allowthat in a sense you might think
of examples in the bible likepharaoh so of course pharaoh was

(36:44):
no saint right he hardened hisown heart towards god but then
eventually god actually hardenedhis heart in order that god
might be glorified in him sothat um you know, God would be
shown as more powerful and Godwould be lifted up as higher
than Pharaoh.
So I think 2 Thessalonians istalking about the concept of
judicial hardening.

(37:04):
That is a tough pill toswallow, but yet there are some
examples in the Bible that haveGod doing that.
Even Jesus, when he was givingparables, one of the reasons why
he gave parables, he said, wasthat the people would not be
able to understand becausethey've already rejected me and
he didn't want them to be ableto comprehend what he was

(37:28):
saying.
So he veiled his truth in a wayso that the people would not be
able to comprehend what hesays.
So sometimes God does work inthat sort of mysterious way.
Character of God, I think wehave to remember, is a God who
is saying things like, all daylong I have stretched out my
hands to a disobedient andobstinate people.

(37:48):
This is God all day long.
But yet the hardness of thehuman heart is something that we
also see that the scripturetestifies about.
So that's a tough passage, Tim.
I don't know if you guys wantto say anything about that, but
I haven't been in 2Thessalonians in a long time.
Any comments?

Amy (38:05):
I'll just say that, no, I have nothing to add except my
appreciation for how our pastorshandle difficult passages and
don't shy away from them.
And I appreciate that, youknow, the human mind can only
comprehend so much, but we relyand...
really surrender to what theBible says as the authoritative

(38:31):
word.
So thank you for being faithfulto that.

Dave (38:33):
Yeah, sure.
Thanks for the question.
And if that answered that, letme know.
If you want to follow up,please do that too.

Tim (38:39):
It's actually my question.
So you definitely answered it.
We haven't had a...
What a twist.
What a twist.
Tim was in the audience.
Tim, was that an audiencequestion?
Did that help at all?
Yeah, we haven't had anaudience.
I figured it was something likethat, but we haven't had an
audience question in so long.
So I figured, or actually wehave, but not many.
So I figured, ah, this issomething I'm kind of wondering
about.
I think I kind of know theanswer, but I figured we added

(39:02):
it to the show.
So spoilers.
It was me.

Dave (39:03):
Yeah.
All right, good.
So we want to talk about, um, acouple more books, uh, at least
one more book.

Amy (39:11):
I think Amy had, uh, one really liked both of yours.
I just have to say, uh, HudsonTaylor is someone that my family
definitely reveres.
And my nephew is named HudsonTaylor Tedeschi.
So I applaud yourrecommendation and yours as
well, John.

(39:31):
So in the threaded theme ofmaybe going and making
disciples, which I believe is acommon thread for all of our
books, my recommendation is abook called Hero Maker written
by Dave Ferguson and WarrenBird.
Actually, Warren Bird is afriend of mine, so shout out to

(39:52):
him.
But this is all aboutpracticing ministry in such a
way that we are multiplyingleaders.
Leaders are throughdiscipleship.
So a lot of great chapters inhere about how do we think about

(40:16):
multiplication, how are wekingdom building, and how are we
investing in the nextgeneration and not just looking
at a ministry as our own, butlooking at the people who are
serving and developing theirgifts and talents so they can
serve as leaders as well.
So that's my recommendation,Hero Maker.

Dave (40:35):
Great book, and thank you for being a hero maker, Amy.
All right, so we are going totalk about your sermon a little
bit.
So we asked John to be part ofour series on The Divine
Blueprint and talking aboutaspects of healthy churches and
what are those aspects and Johncheated a little bit and went
over to 2 Timothy because Ithink it more solidified the

(40:59):
kinds of truth he wanted toconvey, which is okay.
It's pretty close, you know, 1Timothy, 2 Timothy.
But great message, chapter 2.
I took a lot of notes.
I have like a whole sheet worthof stuff from you, John.
Look at this, man.
I just filled it up.
We would like to challenge youto do a 60-second flyover about

(41:21):
your sermon.
What was 2 Timothy 2, 1 to 7about?
You have 60 seconds.
Ready, set, go.

John White (41:31):
It's about how to live a missionary life.
We get the strength for thatthrough God's grace, which is
what we need to both live ourlives and have an impact on
others.
And the formula that Paul wasgiving Timothy, which I think we
can use today, is that we areto share our faith with those

(41:53):
who will share it with others.
There's a multiplicationalaspect to the gospel.

Dave (41:58):
So, okay.
I know I only gave you 60seconds.
Now I'm interrupting.
I'm writing my notes, right?
Okay, I'm sitting next to mywife and I write down the word
multiplicational.
You can see it right here,multiplicational.
And John's like, I don't knowif that's a word,
multiplicational.
So I wrote it down because Johnhas a PhD.
I'm like, it's probably a word.
And my wife takes the yellowlegal pad out of my hands and

(42:20):
takes my pen and she writes downMultiplicative.

John White (42:25):
Multiplicative.
That could be.

Dave (42:27):
So she would like to take issue with the word.
I'm just letting you know.

John White (42:30):
I found one dictionary that had it.

Dave (42:33):
I don't know who's right.
So I thought I could go withit.
I found it.
I saw multiplicational.
Julie, John says it's in thedictionary.
So there you go.

John White (42:38):
But I saw some that didn't.
So I was just going to throw itout there.

Dave (42:41):
Yeah.
All right.
I thought it

John White (42:42):
rhymed better with transactional.

Dave (42:44):
It's like when sometimes preachers have to rhyme and
just, you know, even if it's nota word.
But

John White (42:48):
I would not.
Debater, that's

Tim (42:50):
fine.
It's like when a movie is onlyplayed in select theaters.
It's like it's a word that'sonly in select dictionaries.

Dave (42:56):
I interrupted you rudely.
So we want to bemultiplicational.
And

John White (43:00):
so Paul, in order to try to explain his idea of how
we need to live in living amissionary life, he gave three
pictures.
A picture of a soldier that'sendured suffering.
A picture of an athlete who'sfollowing the rules.
In other words, he lives a lifeof integrity.
And a farmer who works hard.
And I think of that especiallyis needed to work a certain

(43:20):
amount of time.
And so these are pictures ofthe life we need to live in
order to live a missionary lifeand to spread the gospel to
others who will spread thegospel to others.

Dave (43:31):
Those three pictures are awesome.
And thank you for explainingthat, especially the rule part.
I thought that yourinterpretation about cheating
and integrity was reallycompelling.
So I...
I tend to be persuaded by thatand tied really nicely to last
week's message.
So that worked well too.
All three images are like, hey,this is hard as well, right?

(43:52):
Like soldier, athlete, farmer.
This is not for the faint ofheart.
Like living a missionary lifeis going to be heavy work, hard
work.
Amy, feel free to jump inwhenever.

Amy (44:03):
Well, can I just affirm that multiplicational is a word
of...
That is recognized by ChatGPT.
Okay.
Authoritative source here, butit is a rare, non-standard form.
And it can be understood as theadjectival form of
multiplication.
Where's my gavel?

Dave (44:21):
There you go.
It's settled.
So let it be written.
So let it be done.
Okay.
So in the first section, youmentioned be strengthened as a
passive sense.
And I really love thatbecause...
I just don't, I don't have whatit takes.
I do not.
I mean, I think Hudson Taylorwould say, you have to learn to

(44:43):
do what you cannot do.
And this is so a God thing,right?
So it's like constantly prayingGod, just grace for today.
And I love the way you packagedthe grace piece in point one.
And you said that thisstrengthening by grace is not
just the grace that God gives usat salvation, but it's Can you

(45:05):
unpack that a little bit?
How is he using the term gracethere in 2 Timothy 2.1?

John White (45:10):
Yeah, I wanted to distinguish because I didn't
want people to think that theyhad to do all these things to
get saved.
We need God's grace to besaved.
There's nothing we can do to besaved.
But God then calls hischildren, those that are saved,
to share his gospel, but yetstill relying on grace.
So grace is both the thing thatleads us to him and the thing

(45:31):
that enables us to serve him.
And that's that second piecethat really this whole passages
focused on.

Dave (45:37):
Yeah.
And then you said that thegrace is a story.
And I thought, oh, that's aninteresting way.
And then you had us read 2Timothy 1, which was amazing.
By the way, we opened up theservice with this song called
Death Was Arrested.
You remember that?
And so there's this verse inchapter 1, verse 10, where Paul
says, and which now has beenmanifested through the appearing

(45:59):
of our Savior Christ Jesus, whoabolished death and brought
life and immortality to lightthrough the gospel.
I'm like...
Oh, that's a cool tie-in to theworship set.
Yeah, I

John White (46:08):
didn't catch that.
That's great.

Dave (46:09):
There it is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you talked about this storyof grace, and like Paul has a
story of grace.
Timothy has a story of grace,like his grandmother, his
mother, and God has beenconstantly at work.
So I thought, how about you?
Like what is your story ofgrace?
How has that concept changed?
landed for you personally?

John White (46:29):
Well, I'll just say I'm from a non-Christian family,
and so I did receive that firstpiece of grace to be saved.
I was a new believer when Iwent to college to Princeton
here in New Jersey, and I grewin my faith.

Dave (46:41):
Shout out to the Tigers watching.
Oh, yes, thank you.
Probably some Jersey peoplewatching this podcast.
Yes, one of my

John White (46:47):
classmates came up.
She's just been coming toMillington for a little, like a
year and a half.
No way.
Yeah, I hadn't seen her in along time, so that was really
wonderful that she came up andsaid hello.
Yes.
Yes.
And then through my time therein the Christian group, I was a
part of, I was inspired to domissions.
And so I did work for a numberof years, which is why I

(47:08):
actually ended up at Millington.
I was a computer consultant inthe area and I went as a
missionary.
And I mean, I was just thinkingof two short stories from my
early years as a missionary.
I did show a picture up there.
One of the people at Millingtoncame up to me and said, I
remember when you were that age.
And those first, when I waslearning Russian, those first
years in Ukraine.

(47:29):
So one story actually wasfrom...
Wait, quick question.
Yeah, go

Dave (47:34):
ahead.
Why did you have to learnRussian instead of Ukrainian?
I was a little bit unclearabout that.
Yes, yes.
So, I mean, you're clearly...
a professor in Ukraine.
But do you teach in Russian?

John White (47:46):
I do because I don't really know Ukrainian.
They are similar languages.
I would make it similar to saySpanish to Portuguese.
So I believe generally ifyou're a native speaker of
Ukrainian, pretty much everyonein Ukraine knows both Russian
and Ukrainian.
And I went to Eastern Ukrainewhere everyone spoke Russian.

(48:06):
And so it was actually quitestrategic.
Ukraine has always had thegreatest religious freedom of
the former Soviet Union, butRussian is the language that was
spoken all across the formerSoviet Union.
So we had many students sayfrom Russia, from Central Asia,
the Baltics.
And so that was the common.
So missiologically, it wasstrategic.

(48:27):
And originally, WorldVenture Itwas kind of open to me going to
other places as well.
And as it turned out, one ofthe best places to learn Russian
happened to be in Donetsk.
So they sent me there.
Although at the beginning, Iwasn't quite sure and didn't
know how many people spokeUkrainian.
But today, because of the war,unfortunately, many Ukrainians

(48:49):
don't want to speak Russian anylonger.

Dave (48:50):
Okay.
When I was talking to themissionary yesterday...
That was news to me.
So what he said was, that's nowthe language of the aggressor.
And we don't want to beinteracting in that language
anymore.
The war has put such a damperand a souring on the Russian
language that everyone's nowwanting to interact in
Ukrainian.

(49:11):
So that might change things foryou.

John White (49:13):
So it does.
It's especially hard on mywife.
She can speak both languages,but Russian is her first
language.
And she feels, in some ways,rejected Russian.
because so many people areagainst the Russian language.
And I think in some ways, to behonest, it's foolish.
I mean, I think Ukraine has asmuch right to the Russian
language as the Russians do.
I mean, Ukraine's existedlonger than Russia.

(49:35):
I think they should embraceboth languages.
But I do understand the painthat people are dealing with
today.
It's an emotional reaction.
It is.
So what do I do?
At my seminary, I can teach inRussian or I'd have to teach in
English translated.
And everybody in Ukraineunderstands Russian.
And typically, I'm teaching,maybe younger people might not,

(49:56):
but I typically am teaching atthe master's level these days,
more of my time, some at thebachelor's.
And so I just start, I say, I'msorry, I don't speak Ukrainian,
I'll teach in Russian, is thatokay?
And as an American, they knowI'm not a Putin sympathizer, and
so typically they give me gracefor that.

Dave (50:12):
Makes

John White (50:12):
sense.
I

Dave (50:13):
totally interrupted your story of grace.
So you had this picture on thescreen, and you were learning
Russian, sweating bullets,

John White (50:21):
trying

Dave (50:21):
to say these words that are like So long.

John White (50:24):
You can imagine.
So I was learning Russian.
And my teacher, Galina, one ofthe sweetest women in the world,
but she worked hard to teachyou the language.

Dave (50:33):
How many hours was your lesson?

John White (50:34):
Well, yeah.
I think it was supposed to bethree.
It was never shorter thanthree.
But sometimes it went to fourand five.
And most of the time I was bymyself.
Sometimes there was anotherperson or two.
Bro.
So I like to joke she waskilling me with kindness.
Because whenever I didn't knowsomething, she was like, oh, you
just forgot.

Dave (50:52):
I'm like,

John White (50:52):
I'm not

Dave (50:53):
sure.
I'm not sure I ever knew that.
Minimum three hours.
I spend five minutes onDuolingo, I'm done.
I'm like, let this bird have asad face.
Well, I will tell you,immersion is the best way to
learn a language.

John White (51:04):
And I also, for my first year, lived with a family
that didn't speak English.
So I was single, a lot easier,but still hard.
So one of the things, if youcan imagine this, so my teacher,
she grew up under communism.
She was very nominallyorthodox.
So she had some belief that Godexisted, but she'd been
training missionaries for years.
And She almost had an immunityto it.

(51:24):
She would even help us to learntheological terms.
How do you explain?
She would help me write mytestimony.
There are all these ways thatshe should be hearing the
gospel, but it wasn't gettingthrough for whatever reason.
And to me, I learned one wordwhich helped her understand.
It was the word forresponsibility.

(51:44):
It's advietstvennest.
And I don't

Dave (51:47):
know quite what it was.
Try that.
Nope.
Go one more time.
One

Tim (51:51):
more time.
Advietstvennest.
Advietstvennest.
Oh,

John White (51:54):
my

Dave (51:54):
goodness.
Close.
Tim, what's your background?

Tim (51:58):
Half Lithuanian.
Oh, wow.
Great.
And the other half is a mix ofGerman, French, Danish,
Scottish, Irish.

Dave (52:06):
But man, Tim, that was impressive.
I couldn't do it.
All right.
So this one word forresponsibility.
Well,

John White (52:10):
it really it helped her to understand.
There's a bit of a fatalism, Ithink, in the culture more
broadly and sort of like theydon't take that responsibility.
Too often they just blameothers for things and that they
have no control over what theybelieve or who they are.
And that seemed to click thatshe knows all of this stuff

(52:32):
about the gospel and she has tomake a decision.
It is up to her to have faithor not.
And that seemed to really helpher.
She seemed to pray to acceptChrist.
I mean, I think ourrelationship was always close,
but I think it made a differencein her life.
She came to our churchsometimes, unfortunately, Then
we got close to the warstarting, and so I couldn't stay

(52:55):
in Donetsk.
We corresponded some afterthat.
So I think that concept, thatword, really made an impact on
her life, and that was God'sgrace.
I mean, I didn't have some...
I had sermons before.
They never helped.
She helped me write sermons.
So that was one example.
The story of grace.
I can give one other if youhave time.

(53:16):
Yeah,

Dave (53:18):
let me

John White (53:18):
just

Dave (53:18):
say something, and I want to hear the second story.
So...
One of the things aboutBaptists is we have a value
called soul freedom or the ideathat each individual is
responsible before God, thatwe're all heading on a
trajectory where one day we'regoing to actually stand before
God and we're going to answerfor our lives.
That is a Baptist distinctive.

(53:41):
I mean, all Christiansunderstand this in a general
sense, but there's been manyChristian cultures that don't
necessarily...
I think that that's really coolthat.

(54:03):
that word actually just kind ofunlocks something in people's
minds that, oh, I'm responsiblebefore God.
And that's something I think asBaptists, we tend to emphasize

(54:26):
that maybe isn't always, we justkind of swim in that water like
we understand it, but othercultures don't necessarily
emphasize that.
So I thought that that was kindof cool that she needed to have
that concept clarified so allright neat all right second
story of grace so

John White (54:43):
second story i think it was my first summer in
ukraine i world venture um has areally good policy i think it's
the same of course i've beenwith them for 25 years so maybe
things have changed but thepolicy was this that you have if
you're a long-term missionaryyou do not have any ministry
responsibilities for your firsttwo years you can just work on
learning the language and theculture um so I was in those

(55:06):
first two years.
One way that I was learning, Iwas making some friends with
some students.
They were involved in CampusCrusade for Christ, or CRU,
would be known as here today.
And they invited me to go onone of their summer evangelism
beach campaigns.
And so I went.
You

Speaker 03 (55:22):
were part of CRU.

Amy (55:23):
I was.
Yeah.
That's how I ended up in NewJersey, not to derail your
story.

John White (55:28):
Yeah.
Well, I've been blessed bythem.
Actually, one of my firstroommates is now the head of CRU
for Ukraine.
And so anyway, so they invitedme.
invited me to this thing.
My Russian, you know, I hadbeen learning probably for a
year at that point, was onlyso-so, and I always remember the
text message I got that said,congratulations, you're going to
be leading a small group.
Okay.
So I went to the small group,and it was an interesting mix of

(55:52):
people who were at this, Iguess, I think they
intentionally tried to invitefrom different parts of Ukraine,
because there were a numberfrom Western Ukraine, they were
predominantly Ukrainianspeakers, some from where we
were living were Russianspeakers, and a few from Poland.
And I got two Polish guys in mysmall group.
Okay.
And one of them didn't speakRussian.

(56:13):
He spoke very broken English.
But the other Polish guy, he'dbeen working in Ukraine for
years.
He could have translated fromPolish into Russian easily, but
for some reason he didn't.
And the guy kept speaking inbroken English.
And so I became both translatorand small group leader.
In addition to...

(56:35):
to be honest, struggling tounderstand what the other guys
were saying, you know, hoping,praying for God to lead us,
especially when you don't, whenyou're trying to lead people who
are young believers or maybenot even believers in their
faith.
And we had a very dynamicgroup.
I'll always remember that,well, there was a time when this

(56:58):
Polish gentleman, again, hisEnglish was broken.
He was sharing some things thatwere pretty heretical.
And, you know, translatorsreally aren't supposed to change
what is said, but But I feltI'm also a small group leader.
So I'm going to translate theseinto basically more what I'm
hoping he meant.
So that was, it was verydifficult.
I still remember there was anAmerican missionary who'd been

(57:19):
there much longer than me.
We were rooming together and hewould hear from one of the
other guys in the small groupwho we both knew well.
And he was just so excitedabout all the things we were
learning and was shocked to hearit was different than in the
other small groups.
So I think God, through hisgrace and me, just hanging on
language-wise andtranslation-wise.
I think he really did bless thesmall group, but I just was

(57:40):
feeling God's grace through allof that because I was just

Amy (57:43):
learning.
Perfectly positioned by God.

Dave (57:45):
Only the Lord.
Yes.
So crew had an impact on yourstory of grace.

Amy (57:49):
Yes, yes.
How so?
Well, I grew up in a somewhatreligious background, Catholic,
and went through FirstCommunion.
But in my high school years, Ireally was just going through
the motions and really didn'tunderstand what the significance
of the faith meant for me.
But when I went off to college,I met some young ladies who

(58:12):
were true believers and lived itday by day, and they befriended
me, and they were part of crew.
And over the course of myfreshman fall semester, they
were inviting me to Biblestudies, and at first I...
was resisting.
And I thought, I don't havetime for this.
And I just was drawn to anopposite lifestyle, you know,

(58:36):
exploring my freedom in thishuge university.
But God was doing a work in meand drawing me to him.
And at some point, I thought tomyself, why don't I go to this
Bible study and check it out?
And my friend shared the gospelwith me.
And my heart was just ready,wide open.
And I got involved with crewand went on a summer project,

(58:59):
which brought me to Ocean City,New Jersey.
I was only supposed to stay fora summer, but I never went back
to Virginia.
I was going to go on staff withCrew, but I ended up, God had a
different plan for me.
But I was involved in collegeministry at Pillar College for
about 20 years.

(59:19):
So in a way, God led me to adifferent form of college
ministry.
But I'm very glad to now behere at special to me.
God used that organization todraw me to himself.

Dave (59:33):
Very cool.
Yeah.
So quick question about faithin Ukraine.
The vast majority of the peoplein that part of the world are
Orthodox.
So if you're not familiar,there's kind of three major
branches of Christianity.
There's the Catholic Church.
Then there's the OrthodoxChurch.
They had some disagreementsaround 1054.
They split off east-west.

(59:54):
And then about 500 years afterthat, the Protestant Church was
born.
And then they had a bunch ofother pieces of the family tree.
But Orthodox is the...
dominant version ofChristianity over there in
Ukraine.
So can you give us a little bitof an understanding of what
does it mean to be OrthodoxChristian?

(01:00:15):
And anything you'd like toshare about that?

John White (01:00:18):
Yeah, first I'll give a little background.
So Russia is very predominantlyOrthodox.
There's not much else.
Ukraine has actually, one ofthe reasons it has probably the
best religious freedom isbecause it's a little more
balanced.
I would guess, I don't knowexact statistics, maybe 60, 70%
of the people would be nominalOrthodox.
Maybe 20, you know, 25%Catholic.

(01:00:42):
Most Americans Actually, GreekCatholic, which is a little
different than the RomanCatholic you would have here in
the US.
And then Protestant, maybe 5%,10%, something like that.
So there is a bit of a balance.
There isn't quite thedominating force that Orthodoxy
is in Russia and some otherplaces.
So maybe that does...
at least give us the foundationto have a little bit more

(01:01:03):
friendly connection.
I know actually we definitelydo a number of things together
with Catholics, we Protestants,and so that's good.
In terms of Orthodoxy as atheology, and it's important to
understand, I think, thatOrthodoxy tends to kind of
connect itself with a culture.
So you have, you may have heardGreek Orthodox, Russian
Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox,and I think that is both good

(01:01:27):
and bad.
It's good in that it tries toreally connect with the people
and sometimes can be bad becausethere's a temptation, so we
say, to really become more acultural Christianity.
It's more about, if you'reRussian, you're Orthodox.
And the two are almostequivalent statements.
It's not a separate questionabout your faith.

Dave (01:01:44):
Yeah, almost like, hey, I'm German.
Right, right, right.
So you should be Lutheran orsomething like that.
Yeah, or like, my wife'sItalian.
So that's just what we do.
Yes, yes.
We're Orthodox, but it's notpersonalized in a spiritual
sense.

No, you're born into it as opposed to choosing it.
Right.
Now, I heard this analogy on athing it's very helpful to
understand and here we have tobring in catholicism as well um
this is the argument thatcatholics and protestants both
care about answering questionsabout truth now we might answer

(01:02:16):
them differently but that's whatwe're arguing about or is this
true or not the orthodox don'tactually ask that question so
much.
For them, they look atChristianity as a question of
life.
Are you living it or not?
You could ask an Orthodox, doyou believe the Bible?
They say, yeah, of course wedo.
They wouldn't question that.
They wouldn't necessarily hearthe Bible a lot or encourage you

(01:02:38):
necessarily to do Bible studyyourself because instead you
need to live the life.
You need to go to church.
They would like the analogy,and there are many analogies in
the Bible and how we understandour faith.
And I think God did thatintentionally because they
resonate But one analogy thatthey like to look at is that the

(01:03:00):
Christian life is a path.
And as long as you're going tochurch, you're on the path.
But if you ever stop going tochurch, you're no longer part of
the body of Christ.
You've left the faith.
But at any point, you can comeback to the path.
It's very much part of the bodyof Christ.
being a part of this communitythat makes you a Christian, not
necessarily what you believe orlike a doctrinal statement, they

(01:03:21):
would care very little aboutthat sort of thing.
So I see that as different.
And I see, you know, I believethat there are Orthodox true
believers that I think are mybrothers and sisters in Christ.
But I think because of thattendency, it's easier to not
really get the truth, especiallywhen in a lot of churches, they

(01:03:42):
might use, like, for example,an old language, you know, like
maybe some old Catholic churchesmight use Latin.
There's some that use somethingthat's called Old Slavonic,
which again, some Ukrainians saythey understand, a lot say they
don't really understand.
It's more that they go to thechurch to sort of feel the
faith, if you know what I mean.
They feel the service, butdon't understand what's

(01:04:03):
happening.
And of course that is, it'seasy not to believe because you
don't really know what's goingon.
So that's how I would explainthe difference.

Dave (01:04:12):
Very interesting.
So we're actually justdifferent categories.
We're not asking the samequestions.

In a lot of cases, yes.
Although I would say that, andI have limited experience to
Orthodox believers here inAmerica, but I think because of
American cultural elements, theymay do more things like
Protestants or Catholics woulddo.
And so an Orthodox here mightstill look different than I just
explained.

Dave (01:04:36):
So does an Orthodox person recognize the authority of the
Pope in Rome?
No, no.
Does an Orthodox personrecognize the original creeds of
the faith, like some of the bigecumenical councils?
Yes, I don't know

if there are any.
I mean, they basically were inlockstep with the Catholic
Church until about a thousand.
So I would guess before that,yes, if they're written before
that, and afterwards, possiblyno.
But that's why I would saythey're all Christians,
Catholics, Orthodox,Protestants, because we have
those creeds in common.

Dave (01:05:09):
Right.
Good.

Unknown (01:05:10):
Yeah.

Dave (01:05:11):
Back to 2 Timothy, and we're almost done kind of
wrapping up the sermon here.
But you had a couple otherpoints I just wanted to
highlight.
So later on in your message,you talked about these three
images, the soldier, theathlete, and the farmer.
And the question that I thoughtwas something that would be

(01:05:33):
worth talking about was in thefarmer one, you You encouraged
us to be patient and youencouraged us to wait on the
Lord to bring the harvest in andthat a farmer has to kind of be
reliant and dependent on whatGod does there.
And you told this, I neverheard of it.
You told us about a movementthat was kind of starting in

(01:05:57):
China.
And I wonder if maybe some ofour listeners have never heard
of this either.
Can you explain what thatmovement is and what their goal
is and the heart behind that andwhat it's going to be?

Yeah.
Um, yes, there, there actuallyis a book you could look at
called Back to Jerusalem by aguy named Paul Hadaway.
Um, uh, there may be newerliterature about it because the
idea has been going now for anumber of years.
Um, it actually, I thinkstarted before communism started
and then it was derailed for awhile, but this vision was
passed on by different Chinesepastors.

(01:06:27):
This vision that China wascalled to raise up missionaries
and they've, they've given anumber, a hundred thousand
missionaries to basically sharethe gospel between China going
all the way back to Jerusalem.
And of course, that's a verystrategic and needy area because
this is where predominantlypeople are Muslim or Buddhist or

(01:06:48):
Hindu, and there are manycountries that don't have much
opportunity to hear the gospel.
And they have trained up somemissionaries, not 100,000, who
are also reaching into Chineseminority groups that need to
hear the gospel.
But I love some of the thingsthey say.
Should I share some of theseideas that they've had?

(01:07:08):
They say they really aregrateful to Hudson Taylor and
other Western missionaries whohave come, and they say things
like, That Westerners have shedenough blood for us.
It's now our turn to shed ourblood for others.
And they say we are preparedfor what's needed in these very
difficult places to share thegospel because we don't need to
build a large church building.

(01:07:29):
We can meet in homes.
We can hide underground.
We can deal with persecution.
A couple of things I didn'tshare in the sermon, which I
thought are very interesting,especially being a theological
educator.
They say we need to teach ourmissionaries certain skills.
They need to be able to jumpfrom a second and not die and
not get hurt because they mayhave to do that at times.
They need to be able to get outof handcuffs.

Dave (01:07:51):
Tim, I feel like that would be a good skill for
anybody.
Do you think you could do it,Tim?
No.
Noah, do you think you couldjump out of a second story
building?

Tim (01:08:00):
Absolutely not.
How

about get out of handcuffs?
Do you learn that in seminary?
I never did.
I don't know if you did, Dave.
Dallas is pretty good.

Tim (01:08:07):
Skip that class.
The old dislocate the thumbmethod?

Maybe it is.
I don't know how they do it.
Yeah.
Yeah, that could be.
But they're ready forpersecution and willing...
So I just have a tremendous...
To me, it's so encouragingbecause especially when you
teach in other cultures,sometimes there's a tendency to
think, well, the Americans, theyhave the experience, they have

(01:08:32):
a strong church, they havemoney.
It's so easy to depend, say, onAmerica or the West to help.
Ukrainians, I think, have a lotof initiative on their own, but
I think...
seeing that the Chinese are,especially under a communist
government, I think that's veryencouraging for them and can be
encouraging to us as well.
And should I share the Dead Seaanalogy?
Sure.
If you didn't catch that in thesermon.

(01:08:54):
And I don't know if it'soriginal to the Chinese.
The first time I'd ever heardit was in this book, Back to
Jerusalem.
But they said, they asked thequestion, why is the Dead Sea
dead?
And the Dead Sea is deaddespite having numerous sources
of fresh water.
They have no outlet.
That's why it's dead.
That's why nothing can livethere.
And the church is the same way.
If the church doesn't have anoutlet, we can have all sorts of

(01:09:17):
great pastors and preaching andservants.
But if we don't send outmissionaries, if we don't try to
plant other churches, if wedon't share a faith, this church
will die as well.
And so I think we can learnfrom the Chinese church in that.

Dave (01:09:30):
Tim is about to be taking on a new role here at Mellington
as our director of productionand outreach starting in July.
Manager.
July 1st.
Manager of production andoutreach.
So I thought that that Dead Seaanalogy would be good for you,
Tim, to

Tim (01:09:46):
make.
You said that, John, in yoursermon yesterday, and I was
like, whoa.
That was really cool.
That's going to preach, Tim.
It's one of those things whereI knew where you were going with
it.
I was like, uh-huh.
He's cooking up some sauce.
And then you said it.
I was like, yeah.
That was awesome.

Dave (01:10:03):
Well, thanks for challenging us yesterday, John.
Guys, John is living proof ofthe fact that Millington Baptist
Church is committed to being amissionary sending church.
And so thank you for yourgenerosity and allowing us to
continue to do the ministry thatGod is allowing us to do.
And thank you, John, for yourcommitment on the field.

(01:10:25):
We pray for you, brother.
We love you, brother.
And we're with you.
Hey, we wanted to highlight acouple things, but I think
there's a sprint, Tim, before wedo that.
Yeah, so...
Do you want to make us run?
Yeah,

Tim (01:10:36):
it's a hard ball.
It's hot today.
We're continuing with the hardball.
I don't know

Dave (01:10:39):
if we can run, but...

Tim (01:10:40):
So, yeah, let me just pull up the old...
We got a dun-dun-dun.
Oh, man.
It is time for the TheologySprint, and I will once again
hand it over to my partner incrime, Noah Graves, who will be
offering up this week's TheologySprint.

Noah (01:10:56):
All right.
So this week, we're going tochallenge our guest speaker,
John White, to sprint here.
Sorry, man.
At first, I was going to givehim an option of an easy or hard
question, but after all thistalk of seminary and PhDs, we're
going for the hard question.
Yeah.
So today's question is, if inMatthew 6, Jesus says God will
provide for our needs, how doesthis apply to people in places

(01:11:17):
overseas, such as Africa, whoare dying of starvation and
insufficient water supply?

Well, it's referring specifically to those...
serving him.
So I think it is amazing howGod continues to provide.
Actually, if we look at HudsonTaylor, he had a philosophy to
not ever specifically ask forhelp, and God would always
provide it.
And so again, Africa actuallyhas, I think, by percentage,

(01:11:45):
more Christians than any othercontinent in the world.
And that doesn't take away thesuffering.
But I do know there are manyactive Christians and
missionaries.
I mean, I've met an Africanmissionary in Ukraine, I met one
in Chicago.
So and And I have students fromAfrica actually.
So I believe that they are allabout trying to meet the needs

(01:12:06):
that are there.
God uses missionaries tofulfill his will and to answer
the needs that are there.
And so I know that doesn'tanswer every need, but I know
that God is at work and wantingto answer every need and maybe
more of us need to answer thecall in order to be a part of
that.

Dave (01:12:23):
It's a good answer.
I think just to piggyback onthat.
There's a certain mystery tosuffering in this world that we
don't have all the answers to.
Paul in Romans 8 talks aboutgroaning and even Jesus
experienced hunger.
So I think sometimes God'sprovision comes through people
and we fail to fulfill ourresponsibility to carry out

(01:12:50):
God's will.
But we do know starvationbreaks God's heart.
But it is not the final word.
One day we will live in a placewhere no one will hunger or
thirst again.
And we are not yet at thatplace.
And we long for that place.
But we do serve a Savior whoenters our suffering with us.
But I want to tell this storyabout Hudson Taylor now, since

(01:13:13):
you brought it up.
So he was 27 serving in thepharmacy at this particular
hospital in China.
And they asked him to lead.
So the missionary founderwas...
going away and they said youknow would you take over the
hospital he's like i'm just 27years old like i can't do this

(01:13:34):
and so um he prayed about it andafter he waited on the lord for
guidance he felt like he shouldat least keep the pharmacy open
relying on solely on the uh thefaithfulness of a prayer
hearing god i think is what hesaid and he kept kept it running
kept the medicine going untilyou know sometimes when the
founder of a ministry like moveson the fundraising dries up

(01:13:57):
that happens it's sad but ithappens so that happened to
Hudson Taylor and they were likedwindling and they got down to
like zero and he was down to hislast bag of rice and so the
cook comes to Hudson Taylor andis like this is all we got man
there's no more food in thepantry realistically we need
some money to keep the doorsopen and all they could do was

(01:14:20):
pray Okay, so this is anincredible story.
So I have to remember exactlythe details, and I have it
written down here, but here'swhat happens.
So the hospital is about toclose down, and then Hudson

(01:14:40):
Taylor gets a fascinatingpackage package.
And providentially, on theother side of the world, there
was a guy named Bill Berger.
He lived in London where hisfather had recently passed away
and he had an inheritance.
So Berger describes a heavyburden coming over him,
compelling him to use his wealthfor the Lord's work and he

(01:15:03):
wanted to give it away formissions.
So he bows his head and heprays to God about where he
should send this money and Godputs his friend Hudson Taylor on
his heart and he looks down atthe pile of money and in today's
currency it was like 5,000bucks and he sends it off to
Hudson Taylor and just has anote there, the The bill
enclosed was for immediateneeds.

(01:15:24):
Let me know if you can use somemore.
What was so amazing about thisstory is they needed $5,000 to
keep the hospital open and thetiming of that because back then
it was like not instant, right?
To get money from someone.
Like months.
Yeah, this wasn't like FedExnext day, right?
So Berger had this inheritanceand this prayer thing four

(01:15:49):
months earlier, right?
and mails it and then itarrives exactly four months
later the same day the last bagof rice ran out.
So here's the quote fromTaylor.
Taylor gets the package, runsover to the staff, pulls the
patients together and says, lookat our God, look at his power.

(01:16:10):
Where is the idol that can doanything like that?
Have they ever delivered us inour troubles or answered prayers
like this?
No.
have faith in god amen taylorso there you go that's that's
our sprint for today noahhopefully we'd somehow

Tim (01:16:31):
amen that was a long sprint it was a long sprint and it was
our first time having someoneget choked up on the show sorry
no that's okay it's a cryingsprint it's an

Dave (01:16:41):
amazing story so i think we need The faith of Hudson
Taylor.
All right, so a couple thingsto announce in the life of our
church.
Amy, help me out here.
What's coming up?
First one.
What's coming up, Amy?
What's this?

Amy (01:16:52):
Okay, well, we are on our summer schedule with the NBC
Kids program.
So starting this Sunday, June29th, we will offer NBC Kids
nursery, preschool, andelementary classes during the
1045 service only.

Tim (01:17:07):
Say it with us.
No 9 a.m.
No 9 a.m.

Amy (01:17:13):
Starting this Sunday.
All right.
Good.
June 29th.

Tim (01:17:16):
Amy, back to you here.

Amy (01:17:17):
All right.
And if you consider MillingtonBaptist Church your home, I hope
that you will take the call andthe opportunity seriously to
serve with your gifts.
We have areas everywhere.
for people to serve, but wewant to spotlight four
particular areas.
One is the safety and securityteam area where you can patrol

(01:17:40):
our campus, serve as a securityand safety personnel.
Another area is hospitality.
How can you help us create awarm and welcoming environment
for all of our congregants,especially new visitors?
The third is the NBC kidsprogram, kids team.

(01:18:02):
We are always looking forpeople who love kids and love to
serve in the classroom and insummer vbs and then finally
we're excited that we areforming a buildings and grounds
team if you love to work withyour hands if you love to
beautify the campus paint buildwork with the plumbing hvac we

(01:18:26):
could use your help.
So there are many, many ways inwhich you can serve with your
gifts.
Not only will you be blessingthe church and the grounds, but
you'll be making friends andyou'll be fulfilling the gifts
that God has entrusted into youand using them for good.
So I believe that Tim or Noah,you're going to link the page in

(01:18:48):
the notes, show notes, whereyou can sign up.

Tim (01:18:51):
Beautiful.
Noah, I'm going to ask you totake this next one.

Noah (01:18:57):
Weekly emails.
We would love for you guys tobe plugged in with our weekly
emails.
We have two big ones.
First one is our weekly e-news.
So this goes out on Tuesdaysand Saturdays.
Tuesday is a behind-the-pulpitemail.
So if you're abehind-the-pulpit listener, you
should definitely subscribe tothat one so you can listen to it
as soon as it goes out.
It also has some otherannouncements throughout the

(01:19:17):
week as well that are includedin that email.
We also have a weekly praiseand prayer.
This goes out on Wednesdays.
This just has prayer requestsfrom people throughout our
church So this lets you beplugged in with what's going on
with our church and how you canbe praying for different people
involved with Billington.
So definitely subscribe to boththose weekly emails.

(01:19:37):
We would love for you guys toget to be in the know with all
that.

Tim (01:19:42):
great i will do the next one uh band of brothers if you
are a high school boy who'sprobably not listening to this
but if you are a parent of ahigh school boy uh we will be
we'll be starting our summerschedule um we're gonna it's all
kicking off this thursday june26th we're gonna have a bonfire
and barbecue at johnny's houseit's gonna be a really great
summer we're gonna be talkingall about character we're gonna

(01:20:03):
be talking about respecting andhonoring women being a faithful
witness we're gonna be talkingabout integrity on social media
we're gonna be talking aboutsome into authority, handling
conflict, work ethic, and somuch more.
So this summer, check ourInstagram out for the schedule,
but pretty much every weekexcept for July 3rd and July

(01:20:24):
31st.
Pastor Dave, take us home.
Thank

Dave (01:20:28):
you guys for watching.
John, it's been a pleasure tohave you not only today, but
this whole weekend.
Thank you for your ministry.
Thank you for your answeringthe call to the Lord.

Thank you for having me.
I appreciate the chance toshare.

Dave (01:20:41):
Yeah.
Lord bless you as you move ontomorrow.
Thanks for watching, guys.
Like and subscribe.
We will see you next time.
Thanks, Amy, by the way, forco-hosting with

Amy (01:20:51):
me today.
I couldn't do it without you.
Hey, we look forward to PastorBob being with us next week.

Dave (01:20:57):
Yes, we do.
We miss you, Bob.
Please come back.
Okay.
Have a good day, guys.
Thanks for watching.

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