December 9, 2025 • 59 mins
Brett is joined once agin with Renee from itsbooktalk where they discuss their fourth quarter favs as well as giving up one book each they know will be on their best of the year lists.
Books discussed:
-Running Man by Charlie Engle
-Life & Death & Giants by Ron Rindo
-Grace & Henry's Holiday Movie Marathon by Matthew Norman
-The Director by Daniel Kehlmann
-Just Mercy by Brian Stevenson
-Baldwin: A Love Story by Nicolas Boggs
-The Bird Hotel by Joyce Maynard
-Minor Black Figures by Brandon Taylor
Some Bright Nowhere by Anne Packer
Renee's substack
https://substack.com/@itsbooktalk
Renee's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/itsbooktalk/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:04):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack, where today
I'm once again joined by myfriend Renee from its book Talk.
We are here today to discuss ourfourth quarter faves before all
of our Yearend book lists comeout of our favorites.
But I wanna kind of prefacethis, and we talked about this
(00:26):
for a moment, to say, we arerecording this on December 1st,
and clearly Renee and I are bothfrom the school of thought that
we like to read right up to theend of the year because there
could be some hidden gem thatcomes out.
So yes, these are fourth quarterfaves for us, with the caveat
that we are aware that thefourth quarter is not quite
(00:48):
finished yet.
So anyway, Renee, thank you forbeing here.
Renee (00:52):
Hello.
Thank you for having me back,and I had plenty to talk about,
so I'm not.
Not worried that we're doingthis a little early, but for
sure we'll leave room for thatlast minute gem, that kind of
just bombs.
So many potential options tochoose to pick five of my fourth
(01:14):
quarter phase.
So I'm happy, I feel really goodabout sharing these today.
I even have a backup.
Brett Benner (01:21):
Oh, okay.
Good.
We love backups.
Yes.
In the event we have crossoverper chance.
Renee (01:25):
Exactly.
Which we might.
How has your fourth quarterreading been compared to the
summer, which was the last timewe talked about our reading?
Brett Benner (01:36):
Yeah it's, I've actually had some really good
stuff.
In fact, I was working backwardsand I was like I could pull a
lot of stuff from here.
And it was almost like I couldpull probably some of my
favorite books of the year fromthis fourth quarter section.
I don't know.
For me it was great.
How about you?
Renee (01:50):
This quarter has been much better than the summer.
I had some fun reads, somereally enjoyable reads for the
summer, but July and August weretough for me.
Like my quality was good, but myquantity was really low and I
wasn't happy with that.
So I bumped that up and I'mhappy with reading more books,
(02:15):
but I don't know, I feel like ifI'm looking at the entire year,
gosh, the first quarter of theyear for the last several years
has been my best reading and Idon't know what it is about that
beginning of the year.
Usually February especially, isa, is just a stellar month of
(02:38):
rating for me.
I would say this quarter is likea close second.
Interesting.
I wonder if part of your readingin the in like February is
because it's so damn cold you Idon't know.
I don't know.
I wonder if,'cause a lot of thatfirst quarter reading, I do
really go hard on new releasesYeah.
(03:00):
and, publishing, I feel likethey front load, my gosh stellar
reads during a hundred percent,i'm reading January books now to
figure out who to have authorson the podcast.
And I'm already so overwhelmedbecause I'm thinking I have to
get a lot of these done beforethe middle of December to be
able to get people under record.
But there is so much, it is sofront loaded.
(03:23):
It's like that and June are thetwo spots where it seems like,
oh my gosh, it's so much and soI think you're right.
I think like they literallylike, okay, because December is
a vacuum in a non publishingmonth that they're like, we've
gotta get back on the horseJanuary one.
Exactly.
And my reading goes heavy newrelease for strong on the first
(03:47):
quarter, and then I usuallystart sprinkling in the back
list.
And so for me.
I will have a significant, Idon't know yet.
I haven't done my top 10, buteven just for this fourth
quarter phases, I have threebacklist.
So love that.
is usually really good for meand they will show up.
(04:11):
I'll definitely have manybacklist in my top 10.
I know that, and I love thatbecause it it surprises me
throughout the year because Inever know what back backlist
I'm gonna read, and then I neverknow if it's gonna hit me in
such a way that it's one of myfavorite of the year.
Yeah.
(04:31):
Yeah.
I think we talked, last time wewere talking, I think we talked
a little bit about what wewanted to do for the new year
and what things that we werelooking out for.
And one of them, after we talkedfor me was, I don't think I
mentioned this I really wannamake much more of a concerted
effort to filter more backlistin, first of all, because, now
that we've moved and I haveeverything unpacked, I have an
(04:51):
entire wall.
I'll have to send it to you inmy closet of.
Backless books that I've justnever got to, that I haven't
been able to say I'm letting yougo.
I'm letting you go.
I'm never gonna get to you andit's gonna happen again.
I'm looking just at what I haveleft and thinking there's no
way.
So I could never buy anotherbook again and probably have
(05:12):
years of reading in the back.
So I don't wanna say I'm ahoarder, but I do want to say
because also because hoarderswouldn't alphabetize.
But I really wanna prioritizebacklist stuff.
So good.
I hope you do, because there'streasures Yeah.
and it's fun.
We all, I like shiny newreleases also, and some of my
(05:32):
favorite books, especially thisyear are new releases.
But there's something specialabout number one, finally
getting to something that youhave had on your TBR forever or
just I know I wanna read that,but I'll read it later.
And then years go by and finallygetting to that book and then
(05:54):
maybe finally loving it to whereit becomes a forever favorite.
I love that.
I love that.
Alright, before we launch in,what are you reading now?
Right now I am probably a littleover halfway through Harry's
Trees by John Cohen.
This is a backlist, and I wasyet again organizing my print
(06:16):
TBR shelf at home.
So I have mini books like you.
I don't think I have as many asyou from what you're saying, but
I have a lot of print books thatI organize and then I reorganize
seasonally depending, because ifit's a, like right now, if it's
a book that is a summer bookwith a summer setting or a
(06:36):
summer title, it's goingunderneath the cabinet.
And I put in books that.
Maybe our, winter or snow orHmm.
I'm a seasonal reader, so I wasorganizing and I pulled Harry's
trees off my print shelf.
Now I bought this a year and ahalf ago at one of our
independent bookstores, and Iput it on my shelf and I've
(06:57):
never read it.
And I pulled it off and Ithought, you know what?
For some, for no particularreason, I just was like, I'm
gonna start Harry's Treesstarted it, couldn't remember
anything about what it wasabout, but it's perfect for me.
It is.
It's really, truly it.
Don't wanna say much about it.
'cause all I knew was it's abouta widower and a librarian a
(07:22):
little girl and then her mother,and that is, it's very loosely.
A little bit fairytale, a lot oftrees.
It is set.
Here's what's funny, I didn'tknow this until I started
reading.
It's set in the endlessmountains of Pennsylvania, which
is where we got our dog beforeVinnie, and we drove.
(07:47):
They lived at the top of amountain in the endless
mountains.
I've never, that's the only timeI've ever been there, but I was
like, oh my gosh, how's, what asmall like world to find that
this book is set there.
And also the main characterHarry went to Ohio State.
I was like, oh wow.
(08:08):
This wow.
This is wow.
But the book is about, it'sabout people who are widowers
and it's about nature and treesand it's in complicated love
stories.
I feel like.
This book is just for me, likeeverything I love so far.
(08:29):
I'm halfway.
I love it.
And Is there a missing person?
No, there's, that is missingactually.
That's missing.
But there is, gosh, what else isfamily, the librarian, I'm not
quite sure how she's gonnafactor in, but I really like
her.
She's an elderly lady.
Yeah it's right up my alley andthe audio is really good, but
(08:52):
I'm doing print and audio.
So that is Harry's Trees by JohnCohen.
Oh, that sounds great.
What are you I'm now into 2026,so I'm reading this book that's
Sarah Jessica Parker's imprint.
It's her next book that's comingout the first week of January,
and it's called Room 7 0 6 byEllie Levinson.
(09:16):
And.
It really sucked me right in.
It's about this woman who ishappily married and she's got
two kids and she's carrying onwith an affair, except they only
meet every so often.
Like he picks the hotel, theyend up there they do their thing
usually in the afternoon whileher kids are at school.
(09:38):
And then she goes home.
One of the rendezvousafternoons, they're in the hotel
and suddenly they get this calland they see on the television
that the hotel has been put onlockdown, that there's some kind
of takeover or terroristactivity going on, and they're
trapped in this hotel.
(09:59):
So she knows her kids are gonnahave to be picked up at school.
All of these things.
And then meanwhile.
It does flashbacks where you seewhen she first meets her husband
and how their relationshipdeveloped.
So it starts to give more cluesas to what would lead this woman
(10:19):
to have this affair and'cause atfirst it seems so cut and dry
and you think, why is she doingthis?
Very compelling.
And I'm, I have no idea wherethis thing is going.
So that's room 7 0 6 and itcomes out January 20th, Okay.
I had that on my radar,requested it on net galley.
I love that premise and asusual, got denied for it.
(10:42):
I cannot get approved for any ofher books.
The that imprint.
Yeah.
But that sounds so good.
So you will have to keep I will.
No, or I'll send it to you whenI'm done.
Oh, that'd be great.
Yeah, I would love that.
Alright, so launching into we'reeach gonna do five books like we
said, and if we have crossover,we can do another one.
(11:03):
And then as a little bonus onthe end, I thought, like we were
talking about just giving up oneof our top 10 of the year as we
start to call together ourfavorites of the year.
Okay.
What's your first.
So my first pick is anon-fiction favorite.
This year it's called RunningMan by Charlie Engle.
(11:23):
And this is not onlynon-fiction.
It was recommended to me by myolder son who has an interest in
ultra running.
I do not, but I loved this book.
I really love this book.
And the audio was fantastic.
Charlie does narrate himself.
It is about Charlie Engel, whoafter a decade long addiction to
(11:44):
crack cocaine and alcohol hitsrock bottom with a near fatal
six day binge.
That end, that ended in a hailof bullets.
So as Charlie gets sober, heturns to running.
Which became his lifeline, hispastime, and his salvation.
He begins with marathons, andwhen marathons weren't far
(12:07):
enough, he begins to take onultra marathons, races that go
on for 35, 50, and sometimeshundreds of miles traveling to
some of the most unforgivingplaces on earth to race.
There is a documentary aboutCharlie's run across the Sahara
(12:27):
Desert, which was 4,500 miles.
Matt Damon produced adocumentary, which followed
Charlie Engel and his team onthis run.
It was insanity to read about.
I was riveted.
Start to finish.
This is truly an incrediblestory.
(12:49):
It is nonfiction that is what wewould call narrative nonfiction.
It reads like fiction.
It's surprising, it's funny, itis emotional because I'm not
gonna spoil anything about this.
He does end up having to servetime in prison and I'm not gonna
(13:10):
tell you why, but it is bonkersand it's also bonkers how he
managed to get through and comeout of prison still being a
runner.
It's wild.
It is wild.
And by the way, the reason hewas in prison was unjust, so he
shouldn't have been in prison.
And it's crazy.
(13:30):
This is a wild story.
It is so memorable.
You definitely have to do theaudio, I think, because it's
just to hear the emotion in hisvoice.
And he does a fantastic job ofnarrating it is one of my
favorite nonfiction of the year.
It's Running Man by CharlieEngle.
It sounds amazing.
that was good.
All right.
your first one?
(13:51):
okay, so my first one, I almostwas gonna do nonfiction decouple
with you first, but I'll do a,I'm gonna do fiction.
Okay.
So it's Life and Death andGiants by Ron Rendo.
This is something, I listened tomost of this on audio, and then
I bought the book just because Iloved it so much.
I I do that sometimes if Ilisten to something and flip out
(14:11):
over it, I want a copy of it.
So this is a remarkable childtransforms a small rural
community and soon the world.
A young, unmarried Amish womanattended by a country
veterinarian delivers anenormous baby and no one in
Lakota, Wisconsin knows what tomake of the boy.
Raised by his brother on astruggling farm, Gabriel Fisher
(14:33):
walks at eight months,communicates with animals and
possesses extraordinary athleticabilities.
When his brother dies, Gabrielis taken in by a devout Amish
grant.
His devout.
Amish grandparents and for atime he disappears into the
anonymity of Amish life.
But at age 17 and nearly eightfeet tall, Gabriel is spotted
(14:54):
working in a hayfield by thelocal football coach and his
life changes.
First of all, this was soamazing on audio, like I was
going to do like a best audio ofthe year, and this would
certainly be one of them.
The interesting thing about how,the way this story is told is
it's not, it's all first personnarrative by a.
(15:17):
Collection of people in thetown, his grandmother, who is my
favorite character, and thewoman who reads it is so
amazing.
But it just switches betweenthese voices who propel his
story forward.
It's so moving, it's solife-affirming and beautiful.
It reminds me very much of thebest of John Irving.
(15:38):
It's very accessible.
I just thought it was so greatand I don't know why.
We've talked a lot you and Iabout the Correspondent, but in
some weird world,, these twokind of books work together and
maybe it's just because of thekind of emotional resonance they
both have and they're subjectsof like life and living and all
those kind of things.
But it's really beautiful.
(15:59):
That's Life and Death and Giantsby Ron Rendo.
Okay, so I also had that on mylist.
Oh my God, there we yeah I knewI had a feeling we were gonna
both have that.
So no fear.
No fear.
I've gotta back up.
But I agree with everything yousaid, and Thomas, so for me I
did love Hannah's character, butI think Thomas is the one that
(16:24):
I'm still thinking about.
And I at the end of September,and I just, I don't know I would
put this also agree with you inmy top audio books of the year.
I listen to it.
It's so good on audio and yourinterview with Ron Rdo was so
good.
I really enjoyed your interview.
(16:46):
He was so sweet.
But I just loved all of this'cause there's a lot in there
about Emily Dickens and, but Iwill say both Thomas and Hannah.
They have incredible journeyswhere they both end up.
It's it's beautiful.
It's just really It is.
It is.
It's so good and almost anunexpected book, I feel.
(17:09):
Do you feel like this one's Oh,feel so under one.
I saw so many people missed itand it was really, it seemed
like after the fact it startedto catch on to people in the
same way, and maybe that'sanother reason why it reminded
me away of the correspondent,because it was very much
slipping under the radar.
And I think word of mouth iswhat start, started to propel it
(17:32):
And I wonder if.
Life and death and Giants willhave more of a moment as time
goes on.
Like the, yeah.
Like you said, with thecorrespondent, that's what's
happened.
But because his book came out,so close to the end of the year,
may not see that till next year,but I will say, I usually tell
my mom, you know about books Ilove and then she reads, she
(17:55):
usually reads them based on whatI, tell her if, and I said, you
gotta read this book.
She's I've never heard of it.
I said, you have to read thisbook.
Just read it.
And she did and called.
And she said, that is one thatis now one of my favorite books
And she reads I do lots ofbooks.
So I hope we do see more peoplepicking it up.
(18:16):
It's just such a great book.
It's such story with memorablecharacters.
It also feels so weirdly, likeAmericana to me it feels like
such a, all the like parts ofAmerica that like it, I don't
know.
I just loved it.
I think he was able to, to zeroin on that, the contrast in like
(18:37):
high tech, the high tech worldof and with social media and
phones and all that and reallycompare it with life without
that he did it was sofascinating.
And yes, it, we do have a largeAmish community around parts
outside of Columbus and so Iespecially thought that part was
(18:58):
really interesting.
Alright.
What's your number two?
my number two, I'm gonna go withnew release, my other new
release that I had on my listand it's Grace and Henry's
holiday movie Marathon byMatthew Norman.
Have you.
Read or listen to this yet?
Are you going to I don't evenknow it.
So that you're gonna what?
(19:19):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
The audio is the way to go onthis.
It really truly, it's a, and yougotta read this before the
holidays, I'm sorry.
But you really do.
Okay.
It's about a sentimentaladvertising creative and a
blunt, no-nonsense bar owner whofind a second chance at love
(19:41):
while binge watching iconicholiday movies in this poignant
and heartwarming romance.
It is a romance, but yet it is.
Very there.
It's very serious.
It's very heartwarming.
It is not cheesy at all.
Okay.
I started this book on aSaturday morning on audio.
(20:01):
I listened the entire day and Ifinished it Saturday night.
Oh my Could not stop listening.
The narrators are Alex fk andJay Meyers.
They were incredible at bringingthis story to life.
They nailed pacing and tone.
The dialogue in this book isChef's Kiss.
(20:25):
It is so good.
It is not banter.
I don't, I am not a, I don'tlike banter.
This is, I felt like I waswatching a movie and it was
realistic in my head.
I will tell you a little tinybit about the main character,
grace.
She's a mom of two young kids.
Her husband has died, and thenHenry is a man whose wife had
(20:52):
also died when these two end upmeeting, it's alm, it's been
about a year since their spouseshad passed away and they meet in
an unexpected way and thenthings take off from there.
And it does involve holidaymovies.
And what I really speaking ofunder the radar, I think Matthew
(21:16):
Norman is one of the best.
Romance slash comedy slashcontemporary fiction writers
writing today.
I loved his last three books.
Charm City Rocks Altogether Nowand Last Couple Standing.
Love Them.
This one is my new favorite ofhis, but he is fantastic.
(21:41):
He delivers on the story thecharacters.
We're so real.
And what I think you would lovethis too, Brett, because the
supporting characters arefantastic.
Henry a brother, he's great.
Like people who work in the barwhere Grace owns this bar it's
everything.
And PS there's a dog, whichalways great, and the kids in
(22:06):
the story are not brats.
And I find that importantinformation for some readers,
myself included.
And I loved it.
I loved it so much.
It's Grace and Henry's Holidaymovie Marathon by Matthew
Norman.
Okay.
That sounds great.
I'm gonna we get off.
Yeah.
When we get off.
I'm gonna get, I'm gonna look upthe audio.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it.
(22:27):
Yep.
Good.
Okay.
Alright, so my next book wassomething I wanted to read for
right when it first came out.
I was like, oh my god, thissounds so good.
And again, this is not somethingI've seen much on any socials
anywhere.
It's called The Director byDaniel Kelman.
And basically.
(22:49):
It is an artist's life APAC withthe devil when the Nazi sees
power.
GW Pabst, one of cinema'sgreatest directors, is filming
in France to escape the horrorsof the new Germany.
He flees to Hollywood, but underthe blinding California sun, the
world famous director suddenlylooks like a nobody.
Not even Greta Garbo, who hemade famous can help him.
(23:10):
When Pabst receives word thathis elderly mother is ailing, he
finds himself back in hishomeland of Austria, which is
now called Amark.
Pabst, his wife and his youngson are confronted with the
barbaric nature of the regime,but the Minister of Propaganda
and Berlin wants the filmgenius.
He won't take no for an answerand he makes big promises.
(23:31):
While Pap still believes that hewill be able to resist these
advances that he will not submitto any dictatorship other than
art, he has already taken thefirst step into a hopeless
entanglement.
Okay, first of all, this isfiction based on fact.
GW Paps is, was a real director.
This was all real, who gotpulled into the Hitler machine
(23:53):
to make propaganda films for forHitler.
It is so good.
Again, one of those things wherehi, truth is stranger than
fiction, and obviously DanielKelman has taken liberties with
this.
It's also been translated bythis guy Ross Benjamin.
It's so fascinating and the waythat he constructs the narrative
(24:17):
where he shifts, it's not muchalmost life and death and
Giants, where the narrativeshifts points of view from
people around the directorPapst, including his wife, his
son, who in a list to be part ofHitler's youth.
And it's also, obviously there'sdirect parallels with what's
happening in the US right nowthat can be made very clearly,
(24:39):
but it really is becomes thismorality tale about how far are
you willing to go?
What are you willing to do foryour art?
What are you willing to say noto?
Or can you it's really.
I just found it incrediblycompelling.
Really smart, and in some ways,a lot like a thriller.
(25:00):
There is a sequence that comeslater in the book when they're
trying to film this scene in anopera house and they can't find
enough people to be extrasbecause the war is happening,
and what they do is so horrificthat I was just like, oh my God.
Oh my God.
But it's great.
(25:21):
It's also, the subject matter iswhat the subject matter is, but
a lot of it's really funny.
I will just say, and the pointsof view are very funny.
So it's not this, overwhelminglyintense dour kind of dark thing.
Clearly those are parts of itbut that's not the overreaching
kind of narrative.
So that's the director by DanielKelman.
(25:41):
Oh, okay.
That sounds really interestingand I can picture that cover.
It's, is it red and black andwhite?
Yeah yep.
Okay.
Oh yeah, inter.
Okay.
Fascinating.
All right I guess I will go withmy next, another nonfiction.
I had a fantastic month ofnonfiction, November reading,
(26:03):
and this book has been on my TBRforever.
It's just Mercy, A Story ofJustice and Redemption by Brian
Stevenson.
I have no idea why I waited solong to read this.
I knew I would love it and Idid.
This book is it's eye-opening.
I thought I would be preparedfor this story, or he uses
(26:26):
several stories in the book, butthis is Brian Stevenson's
account of his case involving waWalter McMillan.
And Walter's story is thethrough thread for the entire
book, which did create a lot oftension.
And Walter was one of many ofBrian's clients who was on death
(26:47):
row for crimes that he wasadamant that he did not commit.
And in Walter's case, there wasliterally no evidence tying him
to the crime.
And he had a solid alibi.
So you also, so what he did wasintersperse other people's
stories and then we would getback to Walter and then we'd
(27:09):
hear other people and they, itall just came together to
create.
A picture that not only left mejust angered and disgusted, but
I was speechless about the levelof injustice and horror he
describes.
And I really thought I would beprepared for this story because
(27:31):
I read and loved The Sun DoesShine by Anthony Ray Hinton.
I also read and Loved My TimeWill come by Ian Manuel, who is
one of Brian's other clientsthat he does mention in Just
Mercy.
But those stories didn't quiteprepare me for this story, these
(27:54):
stories and the way Stevensonput this book together, it is
very impactful.
So many of the stories ofpeople.
Who were seeking Brian's helpwere heartbreaking.
There are graphic details ofchild abuse, neglect, domestic
violence and rape that were hardto listen to.
(28:15):
And although I did feel angerwhile listening, I also felt
hope.
That was a core part of whatkept Brian and his team
fighting.
I as soon as I finished, I thinkI said to someone Brian
Stevenson is an angel on earth.
He is doing incredible work.
(28:37):
I won't forget this book.
I can't imagine, I just can'timagine doing what he does.
But without him, there are somany people that obviously would
still be on death row and inprison, and it's shocking and
it's scary.
But this book.
Is quite memorable and it's oneof my favorites of the year.
(28:59):
It's Just Mercy, A Story ofJustice and Redemption by Brian
Stevenson.
He does narrate the audio book.
Yeah, I have I have it.
I haven't read it yet either,and it's one of those one I
really wanna read then I knowthey made it into a movie with
Michael B.
Jordan.
I haven't, I purposely did notwatch the movie because I wanted
(29:19):
to read the book Yeah, I get it.
I totally get It's really good.
Okay I'll stick with nonfictionthen.
okay.
Oh, look at us bringing thenonfiction I know, and I have
I've had, so that's, again, Isaid before, I've had so little
of it this year, but this to mewas just incredible, which is
Baldwin a love story by NicholasBoggs, which is probably this
(29:45):
it's I say major biography ofJames Baldwin and it's also
major just because it's huge.
And I will preface it by That'swhat I thought.
it is a doorstop, however, Ihave to say it is so accessible.
But let me just say it's thisdrawing on new archival
material, original research andinterviews.
The spell binding book is thefirst major biography of James
(30:07):
Baldwin in three decadesrevealing how profoundly his
personal relationship shaped hislife and work.
It tells the overlapping storiesof Baldwin's most sustaining,
intimate and artisticrelationships with his mentor,
the Black American painter,Beaufort Delaney with his lover
and muse, the Swiss painter,Lucien Hoppers Berger, and with
(30:28):
his collaborators, the fame,Turkish actor, Angen Cesar, and
the iconoclastic French artist,Joran Kazak, whose long
overlooked significant asBaldwin's last.
Great love is explored in thesepages for the first time.
It is so fantastic you, first ofall, you do not need to have
read any Baldwin before goinginto this.
(30:49):
Clearly they break open hisworks and if you've read his
stuff, and for me, I've onlyread Giovanni's room, so that
adds to it.
Of course, if you have read.
But what this has inspired me todo, if in the new year I plan
to.
Go back and read all of hisother stuff because it made me
so curious.
I also, because it was so bigand I had been reading it and I
(31:12):
wanted to get through the restof it while I was away on
vacation, we were doing thisbike trip in the south of
France, so I got the audio bookand Ron Butler, this actor Ron
Butler, narrates it and he'sincredible.
So I just plugged in andlistened to this while riding
around in this beautiful Frenchcountryside.
And he's an incredible narrator,but it's not just about these
(31:33):
relationships, but it really isabout him finding his work and
becoming the artist that he isand the writer that he was but
also being a black man inAmerica and what that experience
has been like and that kind ofoppression as well as dealing
with the fact of being queer aswell.
It is truly like a stupendouswork.
(31:57):
I was just blown away by theamount of work that Nicholas
Boggs had done and the time thathe put in calling together and
his access that he got to somany people.
And so much of the research thathe did it's truly mind blowing.
But I thought it was just great.
It's also one of thesebiographies I know and
(32:19):
autobiographies and just somenonfiction sometimes we talked
about this, the fear is it couldbe boring.
I was never bored by it.
Moreover, it was one of thosethings where I can go in, put it
down, come back, and it wasgreat.
I never felt oh my God, I'm,this is such a chore.
It just it was just a wonderfulreading experience.
So that is Baldwin a love storyby Nicholas Boggs.
(32:40):
Okay.
Yeah, you sold that.
I knew it was really long and Ihaven't really heard much about
it.
But I have a couple questions.
So I also read Giovanni's Room acouple years ago and vaulted
onto my top 10 of the year list.
I love that book.
Do you think, did he or did thebiography spoil any of his other
(33:02):
books?
it does.
Yeah, it does.
I'm, yeah, it does.
It goes through because itreally goes through the
mechanics of what he's trying todo in this work, what he was
trying to express, what thesecharacters represented.
So yes, but I also have to say.
This speaks to my mind by thetime I'm into those books.
Like I go tell it on themountain or whatever, I don't
(33:22):
remember the specifics enoughwithin this 700 page tome that I
feel like I might get in it andbe like, wait a minute, is this
the, but I'm not concerned aboutit.
I'm not, I don't feel like Ican't remember the details that
specifically of each book.
So lemme put it that way becausehe does have a lot of, he had a
lot of stuff.
He had a lot of works.
And Giovanni's Room is such aninteresting section anyway,
(33:44):
because they talked about how,the struggle to adapt it to make
a movie out of it, and also theplay and all the different
processes of going through thatand how that worked out.
Yeah, but that's that.
To answer your Okay.
And then I love the sound ofdoing something like this on
audio, but do you remember inthe print copy were there
(34:05):
pictures or photos?
There are, Okay.
So it's worth doing a tandem forsure.
Then.
Yeah, there are photos.
And so I, I was sent the bookand like I said, I started it
and I had actually, I had it onmy Kindle, which was great, but
I did wanna see the pictures andI found, because I didn't have
the book with me then for thebulk of it when I was on
vacation, I went back when I gothome and was going through all
(34:27):
the photos then, which wasgreat.
I think I'm gonna put this on myChristmas list because I was
trying to think people, some ofmy family like to buy books for
me, but then I've gotta tellthem what to buy I was wonder
what I would like that I don'talready have.
I think this would, I think I'mgonna put this on my list.
Yeah.
I thought it was just.
(34:49):
Fascinating.
And because like I said, I knewthat he'd written all this
stuff.
I knew, like I, most people areaware of it, especially like
with Giovanni's room, but Ididn't know to know the
backstory of all of this and whohe was.
It's pretty incredible.
And by the way, just the otherpeople that he rubbed shoulders
with just all of these blackartists of the sixties and the
(35:13):
seventies who are all, up andcoming and politicians and
Martin Luther King and it'sjust, it's such a a time capsule
and that I also found reallyfascinating.
okay.
Yeah, that's even I'm glad youmentioned that because that is
appealing to me.
lo I like the sound of that.
Okay.
Good one.
All right.
Okay.
(35:33):
I am going back list again.
And this one crept up on me andI had a rollercoaster of
emotions reading it.
It's the Bird Hotel by JoyceMaynard.
Have you heard of this No.
as one of her?
You've heard of Joyce Maynardyeah.
Yeah.
This, the title is what Got Mebecause, I'm in my bird era.
Do and Love the Birds, and Iactually love books set in
(35:58):
hotels.
So when I came across this, I'mlike, oh my gosh, this is, I've
gotta check this book out.
And this story centers aroundIrene, who after a childhood
filled with heartbreak, findsherself in a really happy place.
And the opening pages.
Now we do have, we do start inher childhood, and, but it moves
(36:21):
so quickly.
But you've gotta get through thechildhood part.
It's very important becausesomething happens that will
alter the course of Irene's lifeand it's really important.
But she does end up, once she'sout of childhood and she becomes
a talented artist, she findslove and starts a family.
(36:45):
And then one day tragedy ensuesand it's a big tragedy and her
life is forever changed.
And she will very soon after,find herself in a small central
American village where shechecks into a beautiful but
decaying lakefront hotel at thebase of a vaca at the base of a
(37:09):
volcano.
So this is the main setting forthe rest of the book.
And this is a story that isgoing to be set over decades,
which is my favorite type ofstory.
And we will follow Irene, but wewill also follow so many other
(37:30):
people who also live in thissmall village.
And what happens to them?
It is, there's a rich assortmentof characters.
And there's also people who cometo stay at the hotel.
This particular hotel, like itis off the beaten path.
Like you have to take a boatjust to get there, and it
(37:54):
becomes a very mysteriouscharacter.
In the book, there is warmth,there's drama, there's romance.
I laughed and I cried.
And also there's a tiny bit ofmagical realism, but do not like
it.
It's part of the story.
So this book will span 40 years.
(38:16):
And when I say I had so manyfeelings, some parts of this
book, I, and I read this inprint, so I don't know how the
audio is, but there were timesmaybe in the sense, maybe in the
middle of the book where I waslike.
I'm bored, like I am totallybored.
What is, we gotta have somethinghappen.
(38:36):
I don't know, like I'm bored.
Where is Joyce Maynard going?
What is she doing?
And then something would happenand I was like, oh my gosh.
You know where you're readingstories and either the
characters do something or thereis, or something happens and
(38:57):
you're like, oh my God, I didnot see that coming.
And then the story shifts andthat is exactly what happened in
this book more than once.
So by the time I reached to theend, I was like, that's
brilliant.
It's brilliant.
She, and the more, and as timehas went on, I think when I
finished this, I gave it 4.75.
(39:18):
Because I was like I was boredat parts of it, but now I am
like, I love this book and Ihaven't, I really haven't been
able to stop thinking about it.
And it was one of those readingexperiences where now that I'm,
a few weeks away from it, I'mlike, I want that reading
experience again.
(39:38):
I wanna be, that's what I want.
And wow.
I will it's one of my favoritesof the fall.
Joyce Maynard, this is not myfirst book by her.
I actually read in June her bookcalled After Her, which I also
loved.
I love the Bird Hotel more.
I, she knows what she's doing.
(39:59):
knows exactly what she's doing.
And I will say, if you do readthis, I wanna make note that
there is an author note at theend of this book and Joyce
Maynard talks about who has thequote, right?
To write certain stories.
And she does not mince words.
(40:21):
And it was really good.
And a lot of food for thoughtfor a lot of what we see in the
book community, Brett, wherepeople say who, yes, who can
write, who has the right towrite stories?
And I was reading it.
I was like, everyone.
Should read this au.
Everyone should know that JoyceMaynard has this author note out
(40:42):
there and it's worth reading.
So this one is The Bird Hotel byJoyce Maynard.
It sounds so good.
I also love, like something thatyou said that resonated with me
and I feel so strongly aboutthis, especially as we're
approaching like end of the yearlist and looking at this.
It's the books that I.
Sometimes even at the timeyou're reading them, you don't
know yet, and the way it sitswith you.
(41:04):
And I certainly have that goingback and that's really for me in
putting my, and we'll get to oneof our choices in a second, but
for me that is become such akind of tent pole for me.
I was like, what am I stillthinking about this time later?
What still floats?
And the rest of them, I'm like,that was a great book.
(41:25):
This was a really good book, butwhat are the things that, for
whatever reason, whether it wasyou were laughing so hard or you
were so moved, or, all of thosethings that something can bring
up, like you just said.
That's to me what ultimatelywhat the best are of a year to
me, because they're the thingsthat stuck with me for the
longest.
(41:46):
So Exactly.
And this is a perfect examplefor me of a story that reminds
me that you, when I say you, I'mtalking to I'm saying to myself
like, you have got to bepatient.
Like with this is the payoff wasso worth it.
(42:10):
And it was worth it on more thanone occasion.
And then I was, and when Ifinished I was like, ugh.
That was so not right of me tosay I was and I even told my
mom, I was like, I'm readingthis book, but I'm bored.
I think I told her at the be atthe middle.
But also sometimes you have,it's okay to be bored when
(42:30):
you're reading a book and know,and especially if by the end
you're like, oh, that was reallygood.
And like you said, I didn't knowat the time that this book was
gonna stay with me.
Like it has, I think I read itlike maybe the first or second.
No, maybe the first week inOctober.
(42:52):
And he, it, so it's two monthslater and I'm still thinking
about that Bird hotel.
Wow.
Yeah, it's really good.
Okay.
Okay, good.
Alright.
My last one of this group isminor Black Figures by Brandon
Taylor.
(43:12):
So I read his other books.
I read the re I read Real Lifeas well as the Late Americans.
I did not read Filthy Animals,but this was by far.
My favorite Brandon Taylor bookI just really keyed in when it
started.
Well, lemme tell you what it'sabout.
First, it says, New York Simmerswith Heat and Unrest As Wyeth, a
(43:32):
painter finds himself at animpasse in his own work.
After attending a dubious showput on by a collective of
careerist artists, he retreatsto a bar in the West Village
where he meets Keating, a formerseminarian over the long summer.
As the two get to know eachother, they talk and argue
about.
God, sex and art.
Meanwhile, at his job workingfor an art restorer, Wyeth
(43:54):
begins to investigate the lifeand career of a forgotten minor
black artist.
His search yields potentialanswers to questions that Wyeth
is only now beginning to askabout what it means to be a
black artist making black artamid the mess and beauty of life
itself, as he did so brilliantlyin the Booker Prize finalist
Real Life and the bestsellingthe Late Americans, Brandon
(44:16):
Taylor brings alive acaptivating set of characters.
This time at work and at play inthe competitive art world.
Minor black figures is a vividlyetched portrait, both sweeping
and tender of friendship,creativity, belief, and the deep
connections between them.
So for me, this book was sointeresting and he's Brandon
Taylor, like reading interviewsand reading.
(44:37):
He's very outspoken, he's veryopinionated, he's very
intelligent and there's aheadiness about him sometimes.
Even when this book started, I'mlike, I thought to myself, am I
gonna be able to key in?
And also because this characterof Wyeth, I will just put it
right out there.
At first I found him a littlebit offputting and so I thought,
(44:58):
am I gonna be able to, is thiskind of gonna just be a
curmudgeonly character that youhave to deal with?
But what was interesting is asyou.
Begin to be introduced to hiscoworkers and their kind of
reactions to him.
It very became clear, this iswho this guy is.
However, the moment he meetsthis man, Keating, this former
(45:20):
seminarian, and theirrelationship starts to develop,
it opened up this whole new, I'mnot gonna say world that sounded
so dramatic, but this whole newside of this character and I.
Just was so captivated by thesetwo and their dialogues and the
conversations that we're havingand the way that this kind of
(45:42):
dance began to play out betweenthe two of them, that I was
completely captivated.
It felt like in some ways thisvery intellectual romance in a
way.
And it was also uncharacteristicof Brandon Taylor to me.
'cause a lot of his books can bea little bit of a downer.
(46:03):
And this really worked againstthat.
And so I found myself completelycaptivated.
I thought that theseconversations that he was
bringing up about art andartists and just the gatekeeping
of the art world, the kind ofthe whitewashing who gets to
participate.
I thought was reallyfascinating.
(46:25):
I don't know, the whole thing tome just became this incredibly
immersive world that I was sodrawn into and these two
characters in particular,they're two of my favorite as a
couple.
They're certainly one of myfavorite couples that I've read
this year.
So that's minor Black figures byBrandon Taylor.
okay.
That sounds a nice surprise.
Totally.
Oh yeah.
(46:45):
Okay.
I've heard of that and he's on Ido subscribe to his Substack but
I didn't really know much aboutthat book.
Yeah.
It's good.
It's really interesting.
Okay.
Did you say you did the audio Idid not, I You read I just read
it.
Okay.
Gotcha.
Alright, here's my backup, butalso one I really loved and it
(47:05):
is Some Bright Nowhere by AnnePacker, and you may have seen
this floating around Instagramand or Good Reads.
I haven't really, I.
I dunno if I've checked goodreads, but I do know that a lot
of people did not like this bookand I loved it.
It is an intimate and profoundlymoving look at a long marriage
(47:30):
and the ways in which astartling request can change a
couple's understanding of whothey are together and apart.
So in this story, we have Elliotand his wife Claire.
They've been happily married foralmost four decades.
They have two grown children.
They live in Connecticut, andthey have like many people in a
(47:54):
long marriage, whether the upsand downs of a long life spent
together.
In the opening page, on theopening page, we find out that
Claire is leaving heroncologist's office and her
oncologist is telling her.
It has been my honor to treatyou.
(48:17):
And within the next, fewparagraphs, we learn that her
cancer, that she has beenbattling for eight years is
there's no more treatment.
She's finished with treatment,she's going to be considering
hospice, and that is where thestory starts.
Not a spoiler.
(48:38):
And I'm actually going to reallynot say much about this.
Other than Elliot, her husbandreally like zeroes in and starts
focusing on what is gonna betheir last days and weeks
together.
What is that gonna look like?
And then Claire makes anunexpected request that leaves
(49:01):
him shocked.
Like reeling just flabbergasted.
And really quickly, Elliot'sworld is shattered.
And the story is gonna go on toreally take a look at what ha,
what if your partner's dyingwish broke your heart?
And do, does someone who isdying does their dying wish
(49:26):
supersede anything else?
And I'm not even I am choosingin my reviews for this book not
to say what her request was.
I think it is in the synopsis,but I think if you don't know, I
think it's better to go inwithout it.
But I did know before I startedreading this, and actually I
(49:49):
wasn't, I thought that thepremise sounded so farfetched
that I wasn't gonna read it.
But then I.
I decided to listen to Oprah'sinterview with Anne Packer
because this is Oprah.
This was an Oprah's pick forNovember.
And listening to the interviewas well as the many of the
(50:11):
audience members, there were menin the audience who had very
similar experiences to this.
I was shocked.
I, so listening to thattogether, I was like, oh, now
I'm gonna read this book.
Like I have to find out.
I loved it.
I think now Elliot tells thestory, so the whole entire thing
(50:33):
is from Elliot's perspective,and I thought that was a real, I
thought it was a great way totell the story.
However, we don't get Claire's.
Perspective, which would'vegiven us a little bit of a, I
think, a more in-depthunderstanding to her and her
motivation.
(50:53):
But that's not what we get.
And I think a lot of people'scriticisms of this story that I
have read is that they thoughtthat the characters were
unlikeable.
I didn't find that to be thecase.
I was very frustrated withClaire and I didn't understand a
lot of what she was doing.
(51:15):
But then I was also thinkingwhen it all comes down to your
last time on earth, shouldn't,should it be about all about you
maybe.
I thi this book will, itchallenged my compassion and.
I had to dig deep, but I also,as someone who's in a long
(51:37):
marriage, like in June of 2026,will be our 30th anniversary.
I was like, oh my gosh, whatwould I do?
And you think about that and youthink it, it just really, it's
one of those stories that thereare no right or wrong answers, I
don't think.
And it's very thought provokingis what I will say.
(52:00):
Now.
I did the audio.
The audio is great.
I did, I, it was sad.
Of course.
It's a sad story, but it's alsoreally compelling.
There were some funny parts andI just, I don't know.
I loved it.
I'm giving it five stars.
So that is some Bright Nowhereby Anne Packer.
Yeah, I just downloaded it likelast night'cause I think it was
(52:21):
a libro and yeah, so I'm I wouldlove to know I wanna talk to you
about it too because from, Idon't know, I'm not gonna get
the chance to hear from anotherlike man about it.
Not I don't know that many malereaders to be able, not only are
gonna read this to say, what didyou think?
And you've been in a longmarriage, what do you, I wanna
(52:44):
hear what you think.
Yeah.
Okay, great.
I'm excited.
I'm excited.
Alright, so we're gonna, we'renow drum roll.
Do just one of our top, which isgonna be in our top 10 of the
year.
Now do you don't, do you knowall your top in already or are
you still waiting to figure itout?
No I know a lot of them.
(53:06):
I'm not I'm staying open to thatone might slip in, and then I
always have the, I always arguewith myself like, is this true
or is this recency bias?
But I end up going with usuallymy intuition and I usually know
whether something, even if it'slast minute, deserves a spot in
(53:27):
my top 10.
So I don't have my top 10nailed, but I do know a few of
them.
Do you have yours?
For sure.
No, I have over, I have overhalf of'em.
I wrote down a lot of them, alot of different ones, and I'm
like, we'll see what fights itout and we'll see if anything in
the next two weeks the samepushes through.
But yeah.
So do you wanna go first?
(53:48):
Okay I will go first.
This book will for sure be in mytop 10.
It's Slanting Towards the Sea byLydia Hilley, and this is a
debut.
I read this one in January oflast year.
I've talked about it all yearlong, and it's the story of
Ivana and Villajo.
(54:08):
It's their complicated lovestory.
It's set in Croatia, and it'salso a father and daughter love
story.
And it's a love story of one'shomeland and of new beginnings
and.
Finding oneself as an adult.
We talk about coming of agewith, child to young adult and
(54:30):
all that.
This is a coming of age of anadult and it's about not only
Ivan Ivana, but Ilaho finding,like everybody in the story kind
of finds themselves and it's setover the summer, which I just,
I've loved this book from, thesecond I finished it and I was
able to sit down and talk withLydia for a podcast interview on
(54:53):
my Substack, which just was ahighlight of my year.
So this one will be there forsure.
I don't know exactly where it'sgonna land yet, but we'll see.
It's Slanting Towards the Sea byLydia Hilley.
I love that.
And I remember, and I read itafter you.
I loved it.
And and I read it based on yourrecommendation.
Yeah.
(55:14):
Okay, so mine is the Slip byLucas Schafer.
It's Austin, Texas.
It's the summer of 1998, andthere's a new face on the scene
at Terry Tucker's boxing gym.
16-year-old Nathaniel Rothsteinhas never felt comfortable in
his own skin, but under thetutelage of a Swaggering,
Haitian born ex fighter namedDavid Deli.
(55:36):
He begins to come into his own.
Even the boys slightly stonedUncle Bob Alexander, who's
supposed to be watching him forthe summer, notices the change.
Nathaniel is happier, moreconfident Tanner.
Even then.
One night he vanishes, leavingLittle Trace behind across the
city.
Charles Rex now going simply byX has been undergoing a teenage
(55:57):
transformation of his owntrolling the phone sex hotline
that his mother works, seekingan outlet for everything that
feels wrong about his body,looking for intimacy and
acceptance, and a culture thatdenies him both as a surprising
and unlikely romance Blooms Xfeels for a moment like he
might've found the safety he'sbeen searching for, but it's
never that simple.
(56:19):
More than a decade later,Nathaniel's Uncle Bob receives a
shocking tip, propelling him toopen his own investigation into
his nephew's disappearance.
The resulting search involvesJim goer's past and present,
including a down on his lucktwin and his opportunistic
brother.
A rookie cop determined to proveherself and Alexis edta a
promising lightweight to crossthe US Mexico border when he was
(56:41):
only 14, carrying with himlicense bearing the wrong name,
and face bobbing and weavingacross the ever-shifting canvas
of a changing country.
The slip is an audacious, sorry.
The slip is an audacious daringlook at sex and race in America
that builds to an unforgettablecollision in the center of the
ring.
(57:03):
This thing was so good and sounexpected.
Lukey Scheffer, swung for thehills.
And there were times when I wasreading this book that I was
like, oh my God, he is going togo there.
And he does.
I never figured the mystery outuntil it was revealed.
(57:25):
I never would've even come upwith what he comes up with and
what happens.
It is fantastic, like truly aand it's been getting a lot of
accolades and it deserves all ofthem.
It is like a monumental debut tome.
Just fantastic.
Oh, okay.
Yeah that's one.
I remember that there was amissing person and Al that you
(57:48):
said that.
So may have to put that still onmy 2026 TBR.
Yeah.
I did not and I read it too.
I don't, I dunno how the audiois, so I don't even know who
reads it, but it's great.
It's great.
So This is amazing, and nowwe're very excited to see what's
gonna pan out to be ourfavorites of the year.
(58:08):
But I think we've throwntogether a good group of books
for people to nab hold ofbefore.
We each end up now announcingour favorites.
So thank you as always for beinghere.
I so appreciate it.
yes.
Thanks for having me.
And I good luck with your lastcouple weeks You too.
You too.
I hope find that little gemthat's in there that you're
(58:30):
like, I to have this one.
I know.
We will keep trying.
But yes, thanks for having meand happy to come back anytime.
Awesome.
Alright, talk soon.
Okay, Bye.
bye.
Thanks again, Renee, only onemore episode of Behind the Stack
this season where I'll be comingto you with my top 10 books of
(58:50):
the year.
So look for that before themonth is over.
And then starting in January,2026, there'll be a whole new
season with author interviews,So consider subscribing to the
show so you don't miss a singleepisode wherever you get your
podcasts.
And what would actually be agreat holiday gift to me is if
you could go to your podcastplatform of choice and rate the
(59:12):
show with five stars, what wouldbe incredibly amazing is if you
can also write a review.
It's reviews and stars that helpget the podcast in front of
other people.
So I can continue to bring youthese conversations on behind
the stack.
Have a great day, and thanksagain for listening.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack, where today
I'm once again joined by myfriend Renee from its book Talk.
We are here today to discuss ourfourth quarter faves before all
of our Yearend book lists comeout of our favorites.
But I wanna kind of prefacethis, and we talked about this
(00:26):
for a moment, to say, we arerecording this on December 1st,
and clearly Renee and I are bothfrom the school of thought that
we like to read right up to theend of the year because there
could be some hidden gem thatcomes out.
So yes, these are fourth quarterfaves for us, with the caveat
that we are aware that thefourth quarter is not quite
(00:48):
finished yet.
So anyway, Renee, thank you forbeing here.
Renee (00:52):
Hello.
Thank you for having me back,and I had plenty to talk about,
so I'm not.
Not worried that we're doingthis a little early, but for
sure we'll leave room for thatlast minute gem, that kind of
just bombs.
So many potential options tochoose to pick five of my fourth
(01:14):
quarter phase.
So I'm happy, I feel really goodabout sharing these today.
I even have a backup.
Brett Benner (01:21):
Oh, okay.
Good.
We love backups.
Yes.
In the event we have crossoverper chance.
Renee (01:25):
Exactly.
Which we might.
How has your fourth quarterreading been compared to the
summer, which was the last timewe talked about our reading?
Brett Benner (01:36):
Yeah it's, I've actually had some really good
stuff.
In fact, I was working backwardsand I was like I could pull a
lot of stuff from here.
And it was almost like I couldpull probably some of my
favorite books of the year fromthis fourth quarter section.
I don't know.
For me it was great.
How about you?
Renee (01:50):
This quarter has been much better than the summer.
I had some fun reads, somereally enjoyable reads for the
summer, but July and August weretough for me.
Like my quality was good, but myquantity was really low and I
wasn't happy with that.
So I bumped that up and I'mhappy with reading more books,
(02:15):
but I don't know, I feel like ifI'm looking at the entire year,
gosh, the first quarter of theyear for the last several years
has been my best reading and Idon't know what it is about that
beginning of the year.
Usually February especially, isa, is just a stellar month of
(02:38):
rating for me.
I would say this quarter is likea close second.
Interesting.
I wonder if part of your readingin the in like February is
because it's so damn cold you Idon't know.
I don't know.
I wonder if,'cause a lot of thatfirst quarter reading, I do
really go hard on new releasesYeah.
(03:00):
and, publishing, I feel likethey front load, my gosh stellar
reads during a hundred percent,i'm reading January books now to
figure out who to have authorson the podcast.
And I'm already so overwhelmedbecause I'm thinking I have to
get a lot of these done beforethe middle of December to be
able to get people under record.
But there is so much, it is sofront loaded.
(03:23):
It's like that and June are thetwo spots where it seems like,
oh my gosh, it's so much and soI think you're right.
I think like they literallylike, okay, because December is
a vacuum in a non publishingmonth that they're like, we've
gotta get back on the horseJanuary one.
Exactly.
And my reading goes heavy newrelease for strong on the first
(03:47):
quarter, and then I usuallystart sprinkling in the back
list.
And so for me.
I will have a significant, Idon't know yet.
I haven't done my top 10, buteven just for this fourth
quarter phases, I have threebacklist.
So love that.
is usually really good for meand they will show up.
(04:11):
I'll definitely have manybacklist in my top 10.
I know that, and I love thatbecause it it surprises me
throughout the year because Inever know what back backlist
I'm gonna read, and then I neverknow if it's gonna hit me in
such a way that it's one of myfavorite of the year.
Yeah.
(04:31):
Yeah.
I think we talked, last time wewere talking, I think we talked
a little bit about what wewanted to do for the new year
and what things that we werelooking out for.
And one of them, after we talkedfor me was, I don't think I
mentioned this I really wannamake much more of a concerted
effort to filter more backlistin, first of all, because, now
that we've moved and I haveeverything unpacked, I have an
(04:51):
entire wall.
I'll have to send it to you inmy closet of.
Backless books that I've justnever got to, that I haven't
been able to say I'm letting yougo.
I'm letting you go.
I'm never gonna get to you andit's gonna happen again.
I'm looking just at what I haveleft and thinking there's no
way.
So I could never buy anotherbook again and probably have
(05:12):
years of reading in the back.
So I don't wanna say I'm ahoarder, but I do want to say
because also because hoarderswouldn't alphabetize.
But I really wanna prioritizebacklist stuff.
So good.
I hope you do, because there'streasures Yeah.
and it's fun.
We all, I like shiny newreleases also, and some of my
(05:32):
favorite books, especially thisyear are new releases.
But there's something specialabout number one, finally
getting to something that youhave had on your TBR forever or
just I know I wanna read that,but I'll read it later.
And then years go by and finallygetting to that book and then
(05:54):
maybe finally loving it to whereit becomes a forever favorite.
I love that.
I love that.
Alright, before we launch in,what are you reading now?
Right now I am probably a littleover halfway through Harry's
Trees by John Cohen.
This is a backlist, and I wasyet again organizing my print
(06:16):
TBR shelf at home.
So I have mini books like you.
I don't think I have as many asyou from what you're saying, but
I have a lot of print books thatI organize and then I reorganize
seasonally depending, because ifit's a, like right now, if it's
a book that is a summer bookwith a summer setting or a
(06:36):
summer title, it's goingunderneath the cabinet.
And I put in books that.
Maybe our, winter or snow orHmm.
I'm a seasonal reader, so I wasorganizing and I pulled Harry's
trees off my print shelf.
Now I bought this a year and ahalf ago at one of our
independent bookstores, and Iput it on my shelf and I've
(06:57):
never read it.
And I pulled it off and Ithought, you know what?
For some, for no particularreason, I just was like, I'm
gonna start Harry's Treesstarted it, couldn't remember
anything about what it wasabout, but it's perfect for me.
It is.
It's really, truly it.
Don't wanna say much about it.
'cause all I knew was it's abouta widower and a librarian a
(07:22):
little girl and then her mother,and that is, it's very loosely.
A little bit fairytale, a lot oftrees.
It is set.
Here's what's funny, I didn'tknow this until I started
reading.
It's set in the endlessmountains of Pennsylvania, which
is where we got our dog beforeVinnie, and we drove.
(07:47):
They lived at the top of amountain in the endless
mountains.
I've never, that's the only timeI've ever been there, but I was
like, oh my gosh, how's, what asmall like world to find that
this book is set there.
And also the main characterHarry went to Ohio State.
I was like, oh wow.
(08:08):
This wow.
This is wow.
But the book is about, it'sabout people who are widowers
and it's about nature and treesand it's in complicated love
stories.
I feel like.
This book is just for me, likeeverything I love so far.
(08:29):
I'm halfway.
I love it.
And Is there a missing person?
No, there's, that is missingactually.
That's missing.
But there is, gosh, what else isfamily, the librarian, I'm not
quite sure how she's gonnafactor in, but I really like
her.
She's an elderly lady.
Yeah it's right up my alley andthe audio is really good, but
(08:52):
I'm doing print and audio.
So that is Harry's Trees by JohnCohen.
Oh, that sounds great.
What are you I'm now into 2026,so I'm reading this book that's
Sarah Jessica Parker's imprint.
It's her next book that's comingout the first week of January,
and it's called Room 7 0 6 byEllie Levinson.
(09:16):
And.
It really sucked me right in.
It's about this woman who ishappily married and she's got
two kids and she's carrying onwith an affair, except they only
meet every so often.
Like he picks the hotel, theyend up there they do their thing
usually in the afternoon whileher kids are at school.
(09:38):
And then she goes home.
One of the rendezvousafternoons, they're in the hotel
and suddenly they get this calland they see on the television
that the hotel has been put onlockdown, that there's some kind
of takeover or terroristactivity going on, and they're
trapped in this hotel.
(09:59):
So she knows her kids are gonnahave to be picked up at school.
All of these things.
And then meanwhile.
It does flashbacks where you seewhen she first meets her husband
and how their relationshipdeveloped.
So it starts to give more cluesas to what would lead this woman
(10:19):
to have this affair and'cause atfirst it seems so cut and dry
and you think, why is she doingthis?
Very compelling.
And I'm, I have no idea wherethis thing is going.
So that's room 7 0 6 and itcomes out January 20th, Okay.
I had that on my radar,requested it on net galley.
I love that premise and asusual, got denied for it.
(10:42):
I cannot get approved for any ofher books.
The that imprint.
Yeah.
But that sounds so good.
So you will have to keep I will.
No, or I'll send it to you whenI'm done.
Oh, that'd be great.
Yeah, I would love that.
Alright, so launching into we'reeach gonna do five books like we
said, and if we have crossover,we can do another one.
(11:03):
And then as a little bonus onthe end, I thought, like we were
talking about just giving up oneof our top 10 of the year as we
start to call together ourfavorites of the year.
Okay.
What's your first.
So my first pick is anon-fiction favorite.
This year it's called RunningMan by Charlie Engle.
(11:23):
And this is not onlynon-fiction.
It was recommended to me by myolder son who has an interest in
ultra running.
I do not, but I loved this book.
I really love this book.
And the audio was fantastic.
Charlie does narrate himself.
It is about Charlie Engel, whoafter a decade long addiction to
(11:44):
crack cocaine and alcohol hitsrock bottom with a near fatal
six day binge.
That end, that ended in a hailof bullets.
So as Charlie gets sober, heturns to running.
Which became his lifeline, hispastime, and his salvation.
He begins with marathons, andwhen marathons weren't far
(12:07):
enough, he begins to take onultra marathons, races that go
on for 35, 50, and sometimeshundreds of miles traveling to
some of the most unforgivingplaces on earth to race.
There is a documentary aboutCharlie's run across the Sahara
(12:27):
Desert, which was 4,500 miles.
Matt Damon produced adocumentary, which followed
Charlie Engel and his team onthis run.
It was insanity to read about.
I was riveted.
Start to finish.
This is truly an incrediblestory.
(12:49):
It is nonfiction that is what wewould call narrative nonfiction.
It reads like fiction.
It's surprising, it's funny, itis emotional because I'm not
gonna spoil anything about this.
He does end up having to servetime in prison and I'm not gonna
(13:10):
tell you why, but it is bonkersand it's also bonkers how he
managed to get through and comeout of prison still being a
runner.
It's wild.
It is wild.
And by the way, the reason hewas in prison was unjust, so he
shouldn't have been in prison.
And it's crazy.
(13:30):
This is a wild story.
It is so memorable.
You definitely have to do theaudio, I think, because it's
just to hear the emotion in hisvoice.
And he does a fantastic job ofnarrating it is one of my
favorite nonfiction of the year.
It's Running Man by CharlieEngle.
It sounds amazing.
that was good.
All right.
your first one?
(13:51):
okay, so my first one, I almostwas gonna do nonfiction decouple
with you first, but I'll do a,I'm gonna do fiction.
Okay.
So it's Life and Death andGiants by Ron Rendo.
This is something, I listened tomost of this on audio, and then
I bought the book just because Iloved it so much.
I I do that sometimes if Ilisten to something and flip out
(14:11):
over it, I want a copy of it.
So this is a remarkable childtransforms a small rural
community and soon the world.
A young, unmarried Amish womanattended by a country
veterinarian delivers anenormous baby and no one in
Lakota, Wisconsin knows what tomake of the boy.
Raised by his brother on astruggling farm, Gabriel Fisher
(14:33):
walks at eight months,communicates with animals and
possesses extraordinary athleticabilities.
When his brother dies, Gabrielis taken in by a devout Amish
grant.
His devout.
Amish grandparents and for atime he disappears into the
anonymity of Amish life.
But at age 17 and nearly eightfeet tall, Gabriel is spotted
(14:54):
working in a hayfield by thelocal football coach and his
life changes.
First of all, this was soamazing on audio, like I was
going to do like a best audio ofthe year, and this would
certainly be one of them.
The interesting thing about how,the way this story is told is
it's not, it's all first personnarrative by a.
(15:17):
Collection of people in thetown, his grandmother, who is my
favorite character, and thewoman who reads it is so
amazing.
But it just switches betweenthese voices who propel his
story forward.
It's so moving, it's solife-affirming and beautiful.
It reminds me very much of thebest of John Irving.
(15:38):
It's very accessible.
I just thought it was so greatand I don't know why.
We've talked a lot you and Iabout the Correspondent, but in
some weird world,, these twokind of books work together and
maybe it's just because of thekind of emotional resonance they
both have and they're subjectsof like life and living and all
those kind of things.
But it's really beautiful.
(15:59):
That's Life and Death and Giantsby Ron Rendo.
Okay, so I also had that on mylist.
Oh my God, there we yeah I knewI had a feeling we were gonna
both have that.
So no fear.
No fear.
I've gotta back up.
But I agree with everything yousaid, and Thomas, so for me I
did love Hannah's character, butI think Thomas is the one that
(16:24):
I'm still thinking about.
And I at the end of September,and I just, I don't know I would
put this also agree with you inmy top audio books of the year.
I listen to it.
It's so good on audio and yourinterview with Ron Rdo was so
good.
I really enjoyed your interview.
(16:46):
He was so sweet.
But I just loved all of this'cause there's a lot in there
about Emily Dickens and, but Iwill say both Thomas and Hannah.
They have incredible journeyswhere they both end up.
It's it's beautiful.
It's just really It is.
It is.
It's so good and almost anunexpected book, I feel.
(17:09):
Do you feel like this one's Oh,feel so under one.
I saw so many people missed itand it was really, it seemed
like after the fact it startedto catch on to people in the
same way, and maybe that'sanother reason why it reminded
me away of the correspondent,because it was very much
slipping under the radar.
And I think word of mouth iswhat start, started to propel it
(17:32):
And I wonder if.
Life and death and Giants willhave more of a moment as time
goes on.
Like the, yeah.
Like you said, with thecorrespondent, that's what's
happened.
But because his book came out,so close to the end of the year,
may not see that till next year,but I will say, I usually tell
my mom, you know about books Ilove and then she reads, she
(17:55):
usually reads them based on whatI, tell her if, and I said, you
gotta read this book.
She's I've never heard of it.
I said, you have to read thisbook.
Just read it.
And she did and called.
And she said, that is one thatis now one of my favorite books
And she reads I do lots ofbooks.
So I hope we do see more peoplepicking it up.
(18:16):
It's just such a great book.
It's such story with memorablecharacters.
It also feels so weirdly, likeAmericana to me it feels like
such a, all the like parts ofAmerica that like it, I don't
know.
I just loved it.
I think he was able to, to zeroin on that, the contrast in like
(18:37):
high tech, the high tech worldof and with social media and
phones and all that and reallycompare it with life without
that he did it was sofascinating.
And yes, it, we do have a largeAmish community around parts
outside of Columbus and so Iespecially thought that part was
(18:58):
really interesting.
Alright.
What's your number two?
my number two, I'm gonna go withnew release, my other new
release that I had on my listand it's Grace and Henry's
holiday movie Marathon byMatthew Norman.
Have you.
Read or listen to this yet?
Are you going to I don't evenknow it.
So that you're gonna what?
(19:19):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
The audio is the way to go onthis.
It really truly, it's a, and yougotta read this before the
holidays, I'm sorry.
But you really do.
Okay.
It's about a sentimentaladvertising creative and a
blunt, no-nonsense bar owner whofind a second chance at love
(19:41):
while binge watching iconicholiday movies in this poignant
and heartwarming romance.
It is a romance, but yet it is.
Very there.
It's very serious.
It's very heartwarming.
It is not cheesy at all.
Okay.
I started this book on aSaturday morning on audio.
(20:01):
I listened the entire day and Ifinished it Saturday night.
Oh my Could not stop listening.
The narrators are Alex fk andJay Meyers.
They were incredible at bringingthis story to life.
They nailed pacing and tone.
The dialogue in this book isChef's Kiss.
(20:25):
It is so good.
It is not banter.
I don't, I am not a, I don'tlike banter.
This is, I felt like I waswatching a movie and it was
realistic in my head.
I will tell you a little tinybit about the main character,
grace.
She's a mom of two young kids.
Her husband has died, and thenHenry is a man whose wife had
(20:52):
also died when these two end upmeeting, it's alm, it's been
about a year since their spouseshad passed away and they meet in
an unexpected way and thenthings take off from there.
And it does involve holidaymovies.
And what I really speaking ofunder the radar, I think Matthew
(21:16):
Norman is one of the best.
Romance slash comedy slashcontemporary fiction writers
writing today.
I loved his last three books.
Charm City Rocks Altogether Nowand Last Couple Standing.
Love Them.
This one is my new favorite ofhis, but he is fantastic.
(21:41):
He delivers on the story thecharacters.
We're so real.
And what I think you would lovethis too, Brett, because the
supporting characters arefantastic.
Henry a brother, he's great.
Like people who work in the barwhere Grace owns this bar it's
everything.
And PS there's a dog, whichalways great, and the kids in
(22:06):
the story are not brats.
And I find that importantinformation for some readers,
myself included.
And I loved it.
I loved it so much.
It's Grace and Henry's Holidaymovie Marathon by Matthew
Norman.
Okay.
That sounds great.
I'm gonna we get off.
Yeah.
When we get off.
I'm gonna get, I'm gonna look upthe audio.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it.
(22:27):
Yep.
Good.
Okay.
Alright, so my next book wassomething I wanted to read for
right when it first came out.
I was like, oh my god, thissounds so good.
And again, this is not somethingI've seen much on any socials
anywhere.
It's called The Director byDaniel Kelman.
And basically.
(22:49):
It is an artist's life APAC withthe devil when the Nazi sees
power.
GW Pabst, one of cinema'sgreatest directors, is filming
in France to escape the horrorsof the new Germany.
He flees to Hollywood, but underthe blinding California sun, the
world famous director suddenlylooks like a nobody.
Not even Greta Garbo, who hemade famous can help him.
(23:10):
When Pabst receives word thathis elderly mother is ailing, he
finds himself back in hishomeland of Austria, which is
now called Amark.
Pabst, his wife and his youngson are confronted with the
barbaric nature of the regime,but the Minister of Propaganda
and Berlin wants the filmgenius.
He won't take no for an answerand he makes big promises.
(23:31):
While Pap still believes that hewill be able to resist these
advances that he will not submitto any dictatorship other than
art, he has already taken thefirst step into a hopeless
entanglement.
Okay, first of all, this isfiction based on fact.
GW Paps is, was a real director.
This was all real, who gotpulled into the Hitler machine
(23:53):
to make propaganda films for forHitler.
It is so good.
Again, one of those things wherehi, truth is stranger than
fiction, and obviously DanielKelman has taken liberties with
this.
It's also been translated bythis guy Ross Benjamin.
It's so fascinating and the waythat he constructs the narrative
(24:17):
where he shifts, it's not muchalmost life and death and
Giants, where the narrativeshifts points of view from
people around the directorPapst, including his wife, his
son, who in a list to be part ofHitler's youth.
And it's also, obviously there'sdirect parallels with what's
happening in the US right nowthat can be made very clearly,
(24:39):
but it really is becomes thismorality tale about how far are
you willing to go?
What are you willing to do foryour art?
What are you willing to say noto?
Or can you it's really.
I just found it incrediblycompelling.
Really smart, and in some ways,a lot like a thriller.
(25:00):
There is a sequence that comeslater in the book when they're
trying to film this scene in anopera house and they can't find
enough people to be extrasbecause the war is happening,
and what they do is so horrificthat I was just like, oh my God.
Oh my God.
But it's great.
(25:21):
It's also, the subject matter iswhat the subject matter is, but
a lot of it's really funny.
I will just say, and the pointsof view are very funny.
So it's not this, overwhelminglyintense dour kind of dark thing.
Clearly those are parts of itbut that's not the overreaching
kind of narrative.
So that's the director by DanielKelman.
(25:41):
Oh, okay.
That sounds really interestingand I can picture that cover.
It's, is it red and black andwhite?
Yeah yep.
Okay.
Oh yeah, inter.
Okay.
Fascinating.
All right I guess I will go withmy next, another nonfiction.
I had a fantastic month ofnonfiction, November reading,
(26:03):
and this book has been on my TBRforever.
It's just Mercy, A Story ofJustice and Redemption by Brian
Stevenson.
I have no idea why I waited solong to read this.
I knew I would love it and Idid.
This book is it's eye-opening.
I thought I would be preparedfor this story, or he uses
(26:26):
several stories in the book, butthis is Brian Stevenson's
account of his case involving waWalter McMillan.
And Walter's story is thethrough thread for the entire
book, which did create a lot oftension.
And Walter was one of many ofBrian's clients who was on death
(26:47):
row for crimes that he wasadamant that he did not commit.
And in Walter's case, there wasliterally no evidence tying him
to the crime.
And he had a solid alibi.
So you also, so what he did wasintersperse other people's
stories and then we would getback to Walter and then we'd
(27:09):
hear other people and they, itall just came together to
create.
A picture that not only left mejust angered and disgusted, but
I was speechless about the levelof injustice and horror he
describes.
And I really thought I would beprepared for this story because
(27:31):
I read and loved The Sun DoesShine by Anthony Ray Hinton.
I also read and Loved My TimeWill come by Ian Manuel, who is
one of Brian's other clientsthat he does mention in Just
Mercy.
But those stories didn't quiteprepare me for this story, these
(27:54):
stories and the way Stevensonput this book together, it is
very impactful.
So many of the stories ofpeople.
Who were seeking Brian's helpwere heartbreaking.
There are graphic details ofchild abuse, neglect, domestic
violence and rape that were hardto listen to.
(28:15):
And although I did feel angerwhile listening, I also felt
hope.
That was a core part of whatkept Brian and his team
fighting.
I as soon as I finished, I thinkI said to someone Brian
Stevenson is an angel on earth.
He is doing incredible work.
(28:37):
I won't forget this book.
I can't imagine, I just can'timagine doing what he does.
But without him, there are somany people that obviously would
still be on death row and inprison, and it's shocking and
it's scary.
But this book.
Is quite memorable and it's oneof my favorites of the year.
(28:59):
It's Just Mercy, A Story ofJustice and Redemption by Brian
Stevenson.
He does narrate the audio book.
Yeah, I have I have it.
I haven't read it yet either,and it's one of those one I
really wanna read then I knowthey made it into a movie with
Michael B.
Jordan.
I haven't, I purposely did notwatch the movie because I wanted
(29:19):
to read the book Yeah, I get it.
I totally get It's really good.
Okay I'll stick with nonfictionthen.
okay.
Oh, look at us bringing thenonfiction I know, and I have
I've had, so that's, again, Isaid before, I've had so little
of it this year, but this to mewas just incredible, which is
Baldwin a love story by NicholasBoggs, which is probably this
(29:45):
it's I say major biography ofJames Baldwin and it's also
major just because it's huge.
And I will preface it by That'swhat I thought.
it is a doorstop, however, Ihave to say it is so accessible.
But let me just say it's thisdrawing on new archival
material, original research andinterviews.
The spell binding book is thefirst major biography of James
(30:07):
Baldwin in three decadesrevealing how profoundly his
personal relationship shaped hislife and work.
It tells the overlapping storiesof Baldwin's most sustaining,
intimate and artisticrelationships with his mentor,
the Black American painter,Beaufort Delaney with his lover
and muse, the Swiss painter,Lucien Hoppers Berger, and with
(30:28):
his collaborators, the fame,Turkish actor, Angen Cesar, and
the iconoclastic French artist,Joran Kazak, whose long
overlooked significant asBaldwin's last.
Great love is explored in thesepages for the first time.
It is so fantastic you, first ofall, you do not need to have
read any Baldwin before goinginto this.
(30:49):
Clearly they break open hisworks and if you've read his
stuff, and for me, I've onlyread Giovanni's room, so that
adds to it.
Of course, if you have read.
But what this has inspired me todo, if in the new year I plan
to.
Go back and read all of hisother stuff because it made me
so curious.
I also, because it was so bigand I had been reading it and I
(31:12):
wanted to get through the restof it while I was away on
vacation, we were doing thisbike trip in the south of
France, so I got the audio bookand Ron Butler, this actor Ron
Butler, narrates it and he'sincredible.
So I just plugged in andlistened to this while riding
around in this beautiful Frenchcountryside.
And he's an incredible narrator,but it's not just about these
(31:33):
relationships, but it really isabout him finding his work and
becoming the artist that he isand the writer that he was but
also being a black man inAmerica and what that experience
has been like and that kind ofoppression as well as dealing
with the fact of being queer aswell.
It is truly like a stupendouswork.
(31:57):
I was just blown away by theamount of work that Nicholas
Boggs had done and the time thathe put in calling together and
his access that he got to somany people.
And so much of the research thathe did it's truly mind blowing.
But I thought it was just great.
It's also one of thesebiographies I know and
(32:19):
autobiographies and just somenonfiction sometimes we talked
about this, the fear is it couldbe boring.
I was never bored by it.
Moreover, it was one of thosethings where I can go in, put it
down, come back, and it wasgreat.
I never felt oh my God, I'm,this is such a chore.
It just it was just a wonderfulreading experience.
So that is Baldwin a love storyby Nicholas Boggs.
(32:40):
Okay.
Yeah, you sold that.
I knew it was really long and Ihaven't really heard much about
it.
But I have a couple questions.
So I also read Giovanni's Room acouple years ago and vaulted
onto my top 10 of the year list.
I love that book.
Do you think, did he or did thebiography spoil any of his other
(33:02):
books?
it does.
Yeah, it does.
I'm, yeah, it does.
It goes through because itreally goes through the
mechanics of what he's trying todo in this work, what he was
trying to express, what thesecharacters represented.
So yes, but I also have to say.
This speaks to my mind by thetime I'm into those books.
Like I go tell it on themountain or whatever, I don't
(33:22):
remember the specifics enoughwithin this 700 page tome that I
feel like I might get in it andbe like, wait a minute, is this
the, but I'm not concerned aboutit.
I'm not, I don't feel like Ican't remember the details that
specifically of each book.
So lemme put it that way becausehe does have a lot of, he had a
lot of stuff.
He had a lot of works.
And Giovanni's Room is such aninteresting section anyway,
(33:44):
because they talked about how,the struggle to adapt it to make
a movie out of it, and also theplay and all the different
processes of going through thatand how that worked out.
Yeah, but that's that.
To answer your Okay.
And then I love the sound ofdoing something like this on
audio, but do you remember inthe print copy were there
(34:05):
pictures or photos?
There are, Okay.
So it's worth doing a tandem forsure.
Then.
Yeah, there are photos.
And so I, I was sent the bookand like I said, I started it
and I had actually, I had it onmy Kindle, which was great, but
I did wanna see the pictures andI found, because I didn't have
the book with me then for thebulk of it when I was on
vacation, I went back when I gothome and was going through all
(34:27):
the photos then, which wasgreat.
I think I'm gonna put this on myChristmas list because I was
trying to think people, some ofmy family like to buy books for
me, but then I've gotta tellthem what to buy I was wonder
what I would like that I don'talready have.
I think this would, I think I'mgonna put this on my list.
Yeah.
I thought it was just.
(34:49):
Fascinating.
And because like I said, I knewthat he'd written all this
stuff.
I knew, like I, most people areaware of it, especially like
with Giovanni's room, but Ididn't know to know the
backstory of all of this and whohe was.
It's pretty incredible.
And by the way, just the otherpeople that he rubbed shoulders
with just all of these blackartists of the sixties and the
(35:13):
seventies who are all, up andcoming and politicians and
Martin Luther King and it'sjust, it's such a a time capsule
and that I also found reallyfascinating.
okay.
Yeah, that's even I'm glad youmentioned that because that is
appealing to me.
lo I like the sound of that.
Okay.
Good one.
All right.
Okay.
(35:33):
I am going back list again.
And this one crept up on me andI had a rollercoaster of
emotions reading it.
It's the Bird Hotel by JoyceMaynard.
Have you heard of this No.
as one of her?
You've heard of Joyce Maynardyeah.
Yeah.
This, the title is what Got Mebecause, I'm in my bird era.
Do and Love the Birds, and Iactually love books set in
(35:58):
hotels.
So when I came across this, I'mlike, oh my gosh, this is, I've
gotta check this book out.
And this story centers aroundIrene, who after a childhood
filled with heartbreak, findsherself in a really happy place.
And the opening pages.
Now we do have, we do start inher childhood, and, but it moves
(36:21):
so quickly.
But you've gotta get through thechildhood part.
It's very important becausesomething happens that will
alter the course of Irene's lifeand it's really important.
But she does end up, once she'sout of childhood and she becomes
a talented artist, she findslove and starts a family.
(36:45):
And then one day tragedy ensuesand it's a big tragedy and her
life is forever changed.
And she will very soon after,find herself in a small central
American village where shechecks into a beautiful but
decaying lakefront hotel at thebase of a vaca at the base of a
(37:09):
volcano.
So this is the main setting forthe rest of the book.
And this is a story that isgoing to be set over decades,
which is my favorite type ofstory.
And we will follow Irene, but wewill also follow so many other
(37:30):
people who also live in thissmall village.
And what happens to them?
It is, there's a rich assortmentof characters.
And there's also people who cometo stay at the hotel.
This particular hotel, like itis off the beaten path.
Like you have to take a boatjust to get there, and it
(37:54):
becomes a very mysteriouscharacter.
In the book, there is warmth,there's drama, there's romance.
I laughed and I cried.
And also there's a tiny bit ofmagical realism, but do not like
it.
It's part of the story.
So this book will span 40 years.
(38:16):
And when I say I had so manyfeelings, some parts of this
book, I, and I read this inprint, so I don't know how the
audio is, but there were timesmaybe in the sense, maybe in the
middle of the book where I waslike.
I'm bored, like I am totallybored.
What is, we gotta have somethinghappen.
(38:36):
I don't know, like I'm bored.
Where is Joyce Maynard going?
What is she doing?
And then something would happenand I was like, oh my gosh.
You know where you're readingstories and either the
characters do something or thereis, or something happens and
(38:57):
you're like, oh my God, I didnot see that coming.
And then the story shifts andthat is exactly what happened in
this book more than once.
So by the time I reached to theend, I was like, that's
brilliant.
It's brilliant.
She, and the more, and as timehas went on, I think when I
finished this, I gave it 4.75.
(39:18):
Because I was like I was boredat parts of it, but now I am
like, I love this book and Ihaven't, I really haven't been
able to stop thinking about it.
And it was one of those readingexperiences where now that I'm,
a few weeks away from it, I'mlike, I want that reading
experience again.
(39:38):
I wanna be, that's what I want.
And wow.
I will it's one of my favoritesof the fall.
Joyce Maynard, this is not myfirst book by her.
I actually read in June her bookcalled After Her, which I also
loved.
I love the Bird Hotel more.
I, she knows what she's doing.
(39:59):
knows exactly what she's doing.
And I will say, if you do readthis, I wanna make note that
there is an author note at theend of this book and Joyce
Maynard talks about who has thequote, right?
To write certain stories.
And she does not mince words.
(40:21):
And it was really good.
And a lot of food for thoughtfor a lot of what we see in the
book community, Brett, wherepeople say who, yes, who can
write, who has the right towrite stories?
And I was reading it.
I was like, everyone.
Should read this au.
Everyone should know that JoyceMaynard has this author note out
(40:42):
there and it's worth reading.
So this one is The Bird Hotel byJoyce Maynard.
It sounds so good.
I also love, like something thatyou said that resonated with me
and I feel so strongly aboutthis, especially as we're
approaching like end of the yearlist and looking at this.
It's the books that I.
Sometimes even at the timeyou're reading them, you don't
know yet, and the way it sitswith you.
(41:04):
And I certainly have that goingback and that's really for me in
putting my, and we'll get to oneof our choices in a second, but
for me that is become such akind of tent pole for me.
I was like, what am I stillthinking about this time later?
What still floats?
And the rest of them, I'm like,that was a great book.
(41:25):
This was a really good book, butwhat are the things that, for
whatever reason, whether it wasyou were laughing so hard or you
were so moved, or, all of thosethings that something can bring
up, like you just said.
That's to me what ultimatelywhat the best are of a year to
me, because they're the thingsthat stuck with me for the
longest.
(41:46):
So Exactly.
And this is a perfect examplefor me of a story that reminds
me that you, when I say you, I'mtalking to I'm saying to myself
like, you have got to bepatient.
Like with this is the payoff wasso worth it.
(42:10):
And it was worth it on more thanone occasion.
And then I was, and when Ifinished I was like, ugh.
That was so not right of me tosay I was and I even told my
mom, I was like, I'm readingthis book, but I'm bored.
I think I told her at the be atthe middle.
But also sometimes you have,it's okay to be bored when
(42:30):
you're reading a book and know,and especially if by the end
you're like, oh, that was reallygood.
And like you said, I didn't knowat the time that this book was
gonna stay with me.
Like it has, I think I read itlike maybe the first or second.
No, maybe the first week inOctober.
(42:52):
And he, it, so it's two monthslater and I'm still thinking
about that Bird hotel.
Wow.
Yeah, it's really good.
Okay.
Okay, good.
Alright.
My last one of this group isminor Black Figures by Brandon
Taylor.
(43:12):
So I read his other books.
I read the re I read Real Lifeas well as the Late Americans.
I did not read Filthy Animals,but this was by far.
My favorite Brandon Taylor bookI just really keyed in when it
started.
Well, lemme tell you what it'sabout.
First, it says, New York Simmerswith Heat and Unrest As Wyeth, a
(43:32):
painter finds himself at animpasse in his own work.
After attending a dubious showput on by a collective of
careerist artists, he retreatsto a bar in the West Village
where he meets Keating, a formerseminarian over the long summer.
As the two get to know eachother, they talk and argue
about.
God, sex and art.
Meanwhile, at his job workingfor an art restorer, Wyeth
(43:54):
begins to investigate the lifeand career of a forgotten minor
black artist.
His search yields potentialanswers to questions that Wyeth
is only now beginning to askabout what it means to be a
black artist making black artamid the mess and beauty of life
itself, as he did so brilliantlyin the Booker Prize finalist
Real Life and the bestsellingthe Late Americans, Brandon
(44:16):
Taylor brings alive acaptivating set of characters.
This time at work and at play inthe competitive art world.
Minor black figures is a vividlyetched portrait, both sweeping
and tender of friendship,creativity, belief, and the deep
connections between them.
So for me, this book was sointeresting and he's Brandon
Taylor, like reading interviewsand reading.
(44:37):
He's very outspoken, he's veryopinionated, he's very
intelligent and there's aheadiness about him sometimes.
Even when this book started, I'mlike, I thought to myself, am I
gonna be able to key in?
And also because this characterof Wyeth, I will just put it
right out there.
At first I found him a littlebit offputting and so I thought,
(44:58):
am I gonna be able to, is thiskind of gonna just be a
curmudgeonly character that youhave to deal with?
But what was interesting is asyou.
Begin to be introduced to hiscoworkers and their kind of
reactions to him.
It very became clear, this iswho this guy is.
However, the moment he meetsthis man, Keating, this former
(45:20):
seminarian, and theirrelationship starts to develop,
it opened up this whole new, I'mnot gonna say world that sounded
so dramatic, but this whole newside of this character and I.
Just was so captivated by thesetwo and their dialogues and the
conversations that we're havingand the way that this kind of
(45:42):
dance began to play out betweenthe two of them, that I was
completely captivated.
It felt like in some ways thisvery intellectual romance in a
way.
And it was also uncharacteristicof Brandon Taylor to me.
'cause a lot of his books can bea little bit of a downer.
(46:03):
And this really worked againstthat.
And so I found myself completelycaptivated.
I thought that theseconversations that he was
bringing up about art andartists and just the gatekeeping
of the art world, the kind ofthe whitewashing who gets to
participate.
I thought was reallyfascinating.
(46:25):
I don't know, the whole thing tome just became this incredibly
immersive world that I was sodrawn into and these two
characters in particular,they're two of my favorite as a
couple.
They're certainly one of myfavorite couples that I've read
this year.
So that's minor Black figures byBrandon Taylor.
okay.
That sounds a nice surprise.
Totally.
Oh yeah.
(46:45):
Okay.
I've heard of that and he's on Ido subscribe to his Substack but
I didn't really know much aboutthat book.
Yeah.
It's good.
It's really interesting.
Okay.
Did you say you did the audio Idid not, I You read I just read
it.
Okay.
Gotcha.
Alright, here's my backup, butalso one I really loved and it
(47:05):
is Some Bright Nowhere by AnnePacker, and you may have seen
this floating around Instagramand or Good Reads.
I haven't really, I.
I dunno if I've checked goodreads, but I do know that a lot
of people did not like this bookand I loved it.
It is an intimate and profoundlymoving look at a long marriage
(47:30):
and the ways in which astartling request can change a
couple's understanding of whothey are together and apart.
So in this story, we have Elliotand his wife Claire.
They've been happily married foralmost four decades.
They have two grown children.
They live in Connecticut, andthey have like many people in a
(47:54):
long marriage, whether the upsand downs of a long life spent
together.
In the opening page, on theopening page, we find out that
Claire is leaving heroncologist's office and her
oncologist is telling her.
It has been my honor to treatyou.
(48:17):
And within the next, fewparagraphs, we learn that her
cancer, that she has beenbattling for eight years is
there's no more treatment.
She's finished with treatment,she's going to be considering
hospice, and that is where thestory starts.
Not a spoiler.
(48:38):
And I'm actually going to reallynot say much about this.
Other than Elliot, her husbandreally like zeroes in and starts
focusing on what is gonna betheir last days and weeks
together.
What is that gonna look like?
And then Claire makes anunexpected request that leaves
(49:01):
him shocked.
Like reeling just flabbergasted.
And really quickly, Elliot'sworld is shattered.
And the story is gonna go on toreally take a look at what ha,
what if your partner's dyingwish broke your heart?
And do, does someone who isdying does their dying wish
(49:26):
supersede anything else?
And I'm not even I am choosingin my reviews for this book not
to say what her request was.
I think it is in the synopsis,but I think if you don't know, I
think it's better to go inwithout it.
But I did know before I startedreading this, and actually I
(49:49):
wasn't, I thought that thepremise sounded so farfetched
that I wasn't gonna read it.
But then I.
I decided to listen to Oprah'sinterview with Anne Packer
because this is Oprah.
This was an Oprah's pick forNovember.
And listening to the interviewas well as the many of the
(50:11):
audience members, there were menin the audience who had very
similar experiences to this.
I was shocked.
I, so listening to thattogether, I was like, oh, now
I'm gonna read this book.
Like I have to find out.
I loved it.
I think now Elliot tells thestory, so the whole entire thing
(50:33):
is from Elliot's perspective,and I thought that was a real, I
thought it was a great way totell the story.
However, we don't get Claire's.
Perspective, which would'vegiven us a little bit of a, I
think, a more in-depthunderstanding to her and her
motivation.
(50:53):
But that's not what we get.
And I think a lot of people'scriticisms of this story that I
have read is that they thoughtthat the characters were
unlikeable.
I didn't find that to be thecase.
I was very frustrated withClaire and I didn't understand a
lot of what she was doing.
(51:15):
But then I was also thinkingwhen it all comes down to your
last time on earth, shouldn't,should it be about all about you
maybe.
I thi this book will, itchallenged my compassion and.
I had to dig deep, but I also,as someone who's in a long
(51:37):
marriage, like in June of 2026,will be our 30th anniversary.
I was like, oh my gosh, whatwould I do?
And you think about that and youthink it, it just really, it's
one of those stories that thereare no right or wrong answers, I
don't think.
And it's very thought provokingis what I will say.
(52:00):
Now.
I did the audio.
The audio is great.
I did, I, it was sad.
Of course.
It's a sad story, but it's alsoreally compelling.
There were some funny parts andI just, I don't know.
I loved it.
I'm giving it five stars.
So that is some Bright Nowhereby Anne Packer.
Yeah, I just downloaded it likelast night'cause I think it was
(52:21):
a libro and yeah, so I'm I wouldlove to know I wanna talk to you
about it too because from, Idon't know, I'm not gonna get
the chance to hear from anotherlike man about it.
Not I don't know that many malereaders to be able, not only are
gonna read this to say, what didyou think?
And you've been in a longmarriage, what do you, I wanna
(52:44):
hear what you think.
Yeah.
Okay, great.
I'm excited.
I'm excited.
Alright, so we're gonna, we'renow drum roll.
Do just one of our top, which isgonna be in our top 10 of the
year.
Now do you don't, do you knowall your top in already or are
you still waiting to figure itout?
No I know a lot of them.
(53:06):
I'm not I'm staying open to thatone might slip in, and then I
always have the, I always arguewith myself like, is this true
or is this recency bias?
But I end up going with usuallymy intuition and I usually know
whether something, even if it'slast minute, deserves a spot in
(53:27):
my top 10.
So I don't have my top 10nailed, but I do know a few of
them.
Do you have yours?
For sure.
No, I have over, I have overhalf of'em.
I wrote down a lot of them, alot of different ones, and I'm
like, we'll see what fights itout and we'll see if anything in
the next two weeks the samepushes through.
But yeah.
So do you wanna go first?
(53:48):
Okay I will go first.
This book will for sure be in mytop 10.
It's Slanting Towards the Sea byLydia Hilley, and this is a
debut.
I read this one in January oflast year.
I've talked about it all yearlong, and it's the story of
Ivana and Villajo.
(54:08):
It's their complicated lovestory.
It's set in Croatia, and it'salso a father and daughter love
story.
And it's a love story of one'shomeland and of new beginnings
and.
Finding oneself as an adult.
We talk about coming of agewith, child to young adult and
(54:30):
all that.
This is a coming of age of anadult and it's about not only
Ivan Ivana, but Ilaho finding,like everybody in the story kind
of finds themselves and it's setover the summer, which I just,
I've loved this book from, thesecond I finished it and I was
able to sit down and talk withLydia for a podcast interview on
(54:53):
my Substack, which just was ahighlight of my year.
So this one will be there forsure.
I don't know exactly where it'sgonna land yet, but we'll see.
It's Slanting Towards the Sea byLydia Hilley.
I love that.
And I remember, and I read itafter you.
I loved it.
And and I read it based on yourrecommendation.
Yeah.
(55:14):
Okay, so mine is the Slip byLucas Schafer.
It's Austin, Texas.
It's the summer of 1998, andthere's a new face on the scene
at Terry Tucker's boxing gym.
16-year-old Nathaniel Rothsteinhas never felt comfortable in
his own skin, but under thetutelage of a Swaggering,
Haitian born ex fighter namedDavid Deli.
(55:36):
He begins to come into his own.
Even the boys slightly stonedUncle Bob Alexander, who's
supposed to be watching him forthe summer, notices the change.
Nathaniel is happier, moreconfident Tanner.
Even then.
One night he vanishes, leavingLittle Trace behind across the
city.
Charles Rex now going simply byX has been undergoing a teenage
(55:57):
transformation of his owntrolling the phone sex hotline
that his mother works, seekingan outlet for everything that
feels wrong about his body,looking for intimacy and
acceptance, and a culture thatdenies him both as a surprising
and unlikely romance Blooms Xfeels for a moment like he
might've found the safety he'sbeen searching for, but it's
never that simple.
(56:19):
More than a decade later,Nathaniel's Uncle Bob receives a
shocking tip, propelling him toopen his own investigation into
his nephew's disappearance.
The resulting search involvesJim goer's past and present,
including a down on his lucktwin and his opportunistic
brother.
A rookie cop determined to proveherself and Alexis edta a
promising lightweight to crossthe US Mexico border when he was
(56:41):
only 14, carrying with himlicense bearing the wrong name,
and face bobbing and weavingacross the ever-shifting canvas
of a changing country.
The slip is an audacious, sorry.
The slip is an audacious daringlook at sex and race in America
that builds to an unforgettablecollision in the center of the
ring.
(57:03):
This thing was so good and sounexpected.
Lukey Scheffer, swung for thehills.
And there were times when I wasreading this book that I was
like, oh my God, he is going togo there.
And he does.
I never figured the mystery outuntil it was revealed.
(57:25):
I never would've even come upwith what he comes up with and
what happens.
It is fantastic, like truly aand it's been getting a lot of
accolades and it deserves all ofthem.
It is like a monumental debut tome.
Just fantastic.
Oh, okay.
Yeah that's one.
I remember that there was amissing person and Al that you
(57:48):
said that.
So may have to put that still onmy 2026 TBR.
Yeah.
I did not and I read it too.
I don't, I dunno how the audiois, so I don't even know who
reads it, but it's great.
It's great.
So This is amazing, and nowwe're very excited to see what's
gonna pan out to be ourfavorites of the year.
(58:08):
But I think we've throwntogether a good group of books
for people to nab hold ofbefore.
We each end up now announcingour favorites.
So thank you as always for beinghere.
I so appreciate it.
yes.
Thanks for having me.
And I good luck with your lastcouple weeks You too.
You too.
I hope find that little gemthat's in there that you're
(58:30):
like, I to have this one.
I know.
We will keep trying.
But yes, thanks for having meand happy to come back anytime.
Awesome.
Alright, talk soon.
Okay, Bye.
bye.
Thanks again, Renee, only onemore episode of Behind the Stack
this season where I'll be comingto you with my top 10 books of
(58:50):
the year.
So look for that before themonth is over.
And then starting in January,2026, there'll be a whole new
season with author interviews,So consider subscribing to the
show so you don't miss a singleepisode wherever you get your
podcasts.
And what would actually be agreat holiday gift to me is if
you could go to your podcastplatform of choice and rate the
(59:12):
show with five stars, what wouldbe incredibly amazing is if you
can also write a review.
It's reviews and stars that helpget the podcast in front of
other people.
So I can continue to bring youthese conversations on behind
the stack.
Have a great day, and thanksagain for listening.
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.