February 11, 2025 • 30 mins
This week Brett sits down with author Alejandro Heredia to discuss his debut novel, 'Loca'. They talk about immigration, the book that made him a reader, creating characters not defined by race, gender or sexuality, and the importance of finding 'your people'.
Alejandro Heredia is a writer from the Bronx. He has received fellowships from LAMBDA Literary, Dominican Studies Institute, UNLV’s Black Mountain Institute, and elsewhere. He received an MFA in fiction from Hunter College. Loca is his debut novel.
Alejandro's website:
https://www.aleheredia.com/
Alejandro's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/stories/aleherex/
If you like what you're hearing on this podcast please subscribe so you never miss an episode!
Watch Behind the Stack on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@brettsbookstack
Bookshop.org page:
https://www.bookshop.org/shop/brettsbookstack
Brett's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/bretts.book.stack
Behind the Stack email:
brettsbookstack@gmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everybody, it's brett and welcome or
(00:02):
welcome back to another episodeof behind the stack before we
get started with today'sinterview There's a couple of
new releases That I wanted tomention the first being stonyard
devotional by charlotte woodThis is such a fantastic book I
actually read it last yearbecause it was one of the
finalists for the Booker Prize,and, um, it's beautiful.
(00:22):
I just totally tapped in.
So, would highly recommend that.
Also out today, The DollhouseAcademy by Margarita Montemore.
This is the follow up book toUna, Out of Order, which I
really enjoyed.
Um, this seems to be a thriller.
Then, Jojo Moyes has a new bookout, We All Live Here.
And then lastly, this book looksreally interesting to me.
(00:47):
It's called Brother Bronte byFernando Flores.
And it's beautiful.
briefly described as a stunningtale of survival and a biting
critique of book bans and latecapitalism.
So check those all out, and Iwill put all those up on my
bookshop.
org page.
And then my final book today isalso today's guest, Alejandro
Heredia for his debut novelLoco, which is just absolutely
(01:11):
beautiful about two Dominicanimmigrants coming into adulthood
in the Bronx in 1999.
A little bit about Alejandro.
He is a queer Afro Dominicanwriter from the Bronx.
He has received fellowships fromLambda Literary, VONA, the
Dominican Studies Institute,Kenyon Review, and Trinity
College.
In 2019, he was selected byMiriam Gurba as the winner of
(01:33):
the Goldline Press FictionChapbook Contest.
His chapbook of short stories,you're the only friend I need,
explores themes of queertransnationalism, friendship,
and unbelonging in the Africandiaspora.
Heredia's work has been featuredin Teen Vogue, Lambda Literary
Review, The Offing, andelsewhere.
He received an MFA in fictionfrom Hunter College.
(01:54):
Heredia currently serves asBlack Mountain Institute's
Shearing Fellow at theUniversity of Nevada, Las Vegas.
So enjoy this episode of Behindthe Stack.
You
Alejandro, I am so excited to be sitting down to
talk to you today about yourdebut novel, which is just
absolutely beautiful.
(02:15):
So welcome.
Alejandro Heredia (02:16):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having meBrett.
I'm excited to be here
Brett Benner (02:18):
So before we start talking about the book, I just
had some I had some questionsabout you That I'm just so
curious about your parents wereimmigrants, correct?
Alejandro Heredia (02:29):
That's right
Brett Benner (02:30):
and were you, were you born in the States,
Alejandro Heredia (02:33):
I was born in the Dominican Republic, and I
moved to the Bronx when I wasseven years old.
So, I remember very consciouslywhat it was like to move to a
new country, learn a newlanguage, all that stuff.
I came to, I came to New Yorkspecifically in 2001, um, like a
week and a half after 9 11.
Brett Benner (02:53):
Wow.
What a time to come.
Do you have many memories ofyour time in the Dominican
Republic as a child?
Alejandro Heredia (03:00):
I do.
Yes.
Um, I remember my upbringing.
I mean, I had friends there.
I lived with my grandparentscause my parents were here in
the United States.
they came to this country when Iwas like a couple months old, I
think less than one year old.
And so I grew up with mygrandparents, my cousin and my
older brother, we all grew up inthe same house.
(03:22):
yeah, I remember going toschool.
I remember.
Hanging out with the boysoutside of playing baseball.
getting into all kinds oftrouble.
I, I remember it all vividly.
We had a mango tree in thebackyard.
Um, so yeah.
Brett Benner (03:36):
Um, are your parents in the Bronx now as
well?
Alejandro Heredia (03:39):
My mom, my mom is in the Bronx.
My dad lives in Jersey.
My grandparents in the Bronx.
Um, most of my family livesstill lives in the Bronx.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (03:46):
and you just have the one brother?
Alejandro Heredia (03:48):
no, I have, so I have an older brother.
I have two younger brothers anda younger sister.
So I have a Oh, wow.
Two siblings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (03:56):
That's a big family.
Alejandro Heredia (03:57):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (03:57):
Any other writers?
Alejandro Heredia (03:58):
No.
Oh my god, no.
there are no other writers in myfamily.
I remember growing up and Istarted reading books here in
the, in the U S when I startedreading books, people would look
at me like I had two heads.
They were like, what are youdoing?
You're reading books.
You should be out talking togirls or whatever.
And, that turned out to be notan interest of mine for many
(04:20):
reasons, not just books, but,Yeah, no, I'm definitely the
first writer in the family.
Brett Benner (04:25):
So this is a big deal.
Alejandro Heredia (04:27):
I think so.
Yeah.
I mean, I was just, it's funny.
I just texted my cousins thismorning.
Cause we're, I'm trying tocoordinate getting my mom to the
launch party.
My mom understands that I have abook coming out.
But I don't know that it meansthe same thing to me as it does
for my family per se.
They just have a differentunderstanding of it, even though
they're very, very supportive ofthe book coming out and of me
(04:50):
being a writer.
I think they're kind of confusedabout what it is that I do all
day.
They're like, you don't have ajob.
Brett Benner (04:58):
I remember I, cause I was an actor, um, before
I, Started as a casting directorand I, my mom always, I always
get these questions, the samething.
They really didn't understand itor how it worked or even
auditioning.
And I remember my mom used tosay things to me like, why don't
you just go do a commercial?
And I was like, okay, well letme call those people and tell
them I'm ready.
Alejandro Heredia (05:16):
Yes.
Well, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Exactly.
Um, yeah, I just had my, mypartner's dad.
Just gave me a motivationalspeech the other day and he was
like, you know, you need to justcall Oprah.
Just call Oprah.
Let her know that you have abook coming out.
And I was like, yeah, right.
Forgot it.
Did not think about that.
Brett Benner (05:34):
Let me pull her up on speed dial to say, Hey, oh, I
am so ready,
Alejandro Heredia (05:38):
girl.
I know you're waiting.
Brett Benner (05:41):
So, wait, you, as a kid, you originally were not
into reading, correct?
Alejandro Heredia (05:46):
I was not into reading, no.
I hated reading.
I thought it was very boring.
And then something clicked inseventh grade.
I started reading and then Ijust could not stop.
Brett Benner (05:54):
What was the entry book for you?
What, do you remember?
Alejandro Heredia (05:58):
Yes, it was a children's book called Ink
Heart.
Brett Benner (06:01):
Oh my god, I know.
Wow.
If you could explain it for ourlisteners and viewers.
Alejandro Heredia (06:04):
Yes.
It's a novel.
I mean, I'll try to summarizeit.
It's a novel about this fatherand daughter, and I believe they
both have this ability, thatgives them the power to bring to
life whatever they read out loudfrom a book.
it's a book series that reallyfocuses on the power of
storytelling and words andcharacters and, and how people
(06:25):
can really relate to books whenthe characters come alive quite
literally.
So it was quite an interestingfirst book to really bring me
into the world of books, causeit's a book all about the power
of books and words.
Brett Benner (06:38):
Yeah, it's such a great series.
so then how did you get intowriting?
Alejandro Heredia (06:41):
Um, that's a good question.
I don't know exactly when I madethe transition from reading
intensely to wanting to write.
I remember the first piece offiction that I wrote.
It was for a history class.
A teacher had us write about afictional take on the first
contact between Europeans.
(07:02):
and Native Americans.
Like what?
Oh, wow.
We were supposed to sort ofimagine a sort of first contact
story.
And so it was supposed to be onepage, um, was assigned from one
day to another, come back thenext day with a page of what you
imagine this thing was like.
And I ended up writing thatnight, like 14 pages.
(07:22):
And I turned it in to myteacher.
And he was like, Are you okay?
Why did you write all of this?
Um, well, I think that was thefirst moment where I thought,
Oh, that was, that wasinteresting.
I actually liked imagining, um,this world.
Obviously, I was writing aboutsomething that was, quite
devastating.
But still, it was, it wasinteresting and useful for me to
(07:46):
sort of write a scene, writecharacter, write a story.
And then from then on, I thinkat the end of, I always forget
about this, but at the end ofhigh school, I did, um, and I
don't know if this is stillaround, but NaNoWriMo, the
National Novel Writing Month,have you heard of this?
Brett Benner (08:03):
I've not heard of that.
Alejandro Heredia (08:04):
It's a, it's a crazy thing that people do
where they sign up for thiscompetition of sorts where you
are, the goal is to write anovel in a month.
And you get a little likedigital certificate at the end.
But really it's to feel goodabout yourself.
I did that in my senior year ofhigh school or junior year or
something.
And that was, again, that wasfun and I did that.
For me just because I found itpleasurable.
Brett Benner (08:24):
Did you print your digital, certificate?
Alejandro Heredia (08:26):
I did not.
No, I didn't have a printer athome.
So I just kind of let itdisappear.
That's awesome.
So for our listeners, for ourviewers, do you have an elevator
pitch for the book or kind of asummary that you could share?
Yeah, Elevator Pitch Loca isabout, it's a novel about two
best friends, Sal and Charo, whoare trying and failing miserably
(08:50):
to build a new life forthemselves, in the Bronx in
1999.
It's a story about, immigration,queerness, and I think
ultimately a story about,responsibility, the
responsibilities that we have toourselves, and just as
importantly, the kinds ofresponsibility that we have to
ourselves.
To our community.
Brett Benner (09:09):
I have to read some of these blurbs that you've
gotten for the book from, like,some of my favorite writers, and
it's really, really impressive.
Adam Haslett says the mostgenerously written novel I have
read in a very long time, andthat generosity is a beautiful
thing.
Then, Loka asks, how do we findeach other and love each other,
(09:32):
see each other, save each other,and this novel answers again and
again, like this.
And that was from AlexanderChee, And then Rumaan Alam has
said, a queer book, yes.
A Dominican book.
To a Spanglish book.
Sure.
And as such a quintessentiallyAmerican novel, a beautiful one.
I mean, you are just rackingthem in like incredible.
(09:55):
So congrats just on those and,and, and the response that
you've been having.
It's really amazing.
Alejandro Heredia (10:00):
Thank you.
Thank you.
You know,, it is a privilege tobe read at all.
and it is, you know, an evenbigger privilege to be read with
so much generosity andintelligence.
So I, I'm incredibly grateful.
Brett Benner (10:13):
So I'm curious, what led you to the decision of
setting the book in 1999?
Aside from it's a great printsong.
Alejandro Heredia (10:21):
Yes.
Um, that is a great print song.
I really wanted to write a storyabout my parents, generation of
immigrants.
My parents immigrated to theBronx in the mid 90s.
And they were in the Bronx from,from then on.
And I really wanted to capturethat world.
The kinds of relationships thatpeople had, the kinds of
(10:42):
buildings that they lived in,the kind of environments and,
and, and the block, you know, Iwrite a lot about grand
concourse at one seven Oh, causethat's where, that's where I
grew up, but that's also wheremy parents, that was my parents
home when they first arrived, inNew York.
you know, a lot of this novelcame out of a desire to just,
like, freeze in amber, thisworld that I know won't be there
(11:05):
forever, that already haschanged a lot in the past 20
years.
Brett Benner (11:08):
Did you find any of it a challenge, or was it
more liberating in a way?
Alejandro Heredia (11:12):
It was pretty liberating.
It wasn't challenging because Icame to this country in 2001
and, you know, between 1999 and2001, there's not a, there's not
a lot that's different.
Um, so I, I knew a lot about theworld already through my own
experience.
But I had also heard a lot aboutit through my mom.
My mom is a big storyteller.
(11:32):
She loved to tell stories, lovesto tell stories about her,
immigration experience.
And she had always shared withme, you know, all the trials and
tribulations that she hadexperienced when, when she first
arrived in the Bronx.
And so I already sort of had, aninternal database to pull from.
So it wasn't very challenging inthat way.
Brett Benner (11:52):
Was there anyone in the queer community that you
were able to pick their brain?
Alejandro Heredia (11:56):
Yes.
I asked a few people, but mymain source of information was
William Johnson, who is, I seehim as a mentor of mine.
he currently works at PanAmerica.
That's where we met.
Cause I used to work there acouple of years ago.
and while I was writing thenovel, I, I think I already had
a draft of it in there, but,while I was revising, I would
(12:19):
ask William a lot of questionsabout like queer New York city
life in the 1990s and one of thethings that he.
taught me, which to me shouldhave been obvious, but that I
just didn't know because Ihadn't experienced.
And, you know, he taught methat, you know, there were queer
things happening in the Bronx inthe 1990s.
There were, there was actually aclub, that was open that I think
(12:40):
closing like 2006 or 2007.
that he used to go to.
And so it was, it sort ofreoriented a lot of my.
Vision for the novel and helpedme focus some of the queer party
scenes that happened in thenovel, um, in, in the Bronx.
Some of it does happen inManhattan.
And sort of traditionally queerspaces like the village.
(13:02):
but, Vance, for example, he has,his house parties in the Bronx
and that's for the queer people.
so it was really important forme to have mentorship in that
way.
Cause I did not live throughthat at that time.
Brett Benner (13:13):
As you said in the beginning, it's really follows
these two characters.
they've divergent paths in someways about their own experiences
being two different immigrantsin the Bronx, both of them kind
of looking for their sense ofidentity, how they fit, how they
forge their own paths.
Did you know in constructionthat you wanted to kind of make
these two separate storiesbecause they come back together,
(13:36):
certainly, and they're alwayskind of tethered together, but
they are very two distinctnarratives.
Alejandro Heredia (13:41):
Yeah, I knew that I wanted to write a novel
about friendship from thebeginning.
And so it was always clear to methat the novel had to be about
Sal and Charo, and that theyneeded to have their own thing
going on, as best friends oftendo.
Um, as friends often do.
but I didn't always have an ideaof what the structure of the
(14:04):
novel would be like.
And that was something that Istruggled with quite a bit.
At the beginning of the novelseemed to focus a lot on Sal and
the novel structured verydifferently.
And then through the editorialprocess, I was able to move some
things around.
I added those extra scenes ofCharo's past, which I think
really rounded out her characterand allowed us to understand
(14:26):
where she's coming from, her ownimmigration story, and her past
and how that informs the choicesthat she makes in the novel,
because she makes some, somepretty, I think severe choices,
throughout the book.
So it took some time to, tofind, some footing with her
character, but From the feedbackthat I'm getting, some people
seem to like her more than theylike Sal.
(14:46):
So,
Brett Benner (14:47):
oh, that's so interesting.
And I'm not giving anythingaway, but I, I understand some
of that in a way because herchoices feel, I don't want to
say logical, but I'm alsothinking about it as somebody
who's coming at it in 2025 andlooking at these choices versus
1999.
And so I think that informsthings as well.
(15:08):
I want to start with Sal alittle bit.
You talk about he's a, he's animmigrant, he's a gay immigrant.
the, the specificity, and thisis kind of somewhat from just
from your text, the specificityof being Dominican and that
difference from say Mexicans orCentral Americans.
Are these conversations you'vehad that he's had in your own
mind?
Are these things that came upfor you?
And did you find any of your ownjourney in regards to your
(15:29):
sexuality and acceptance of whoyou are informed who Sal was?
Alejandro Heredia (15:33):
Yeah.
I mean, I'm sure in some ways,some of me seeped into some of
the questions that Sal's askinghimself around, his queerness.
I mean, we have differentexperiences.
I immigrated to New York when Iwas seven.
And so in so many ways, I'm, I'mjust a very American person.
and Sal immigrated and he was 19years old.
And I think it's different whenyou are, a fully, almost a fully
(15:57):
formed adult, and then coming toa new country, your relationship
to the other country, yourrelationship to the new country,
all of that is, is quitedifferent than, than my own
experience.
But certainly I had a, therewere some questions that I had
about my own experience in myown life that I was sort of
teasing out.
Through that character andthrough, through that
character's experiences.
(16:17):
I was particularly interested inthis question that, a lot of
immigrants are told about hardwork.
That section that you just readabout from the novel is Sal
asking himself, or saying tohimself, I was told this story
from my, by my mother that if Iworked very, very hard, I would
be successful.
Things were kind of just, uh,open up before me and I would be
fine in this country.
(16:38):
But I'm being introduced andbeing challenged to think about
my story in all these differentways.
And it's getting really hard tofigure it out because the story
is more complicated than Ithought.
It was, um, to me, that wasreally important to write.
And I, I think some people mightsee that as me sort of tackling
what people call, uh,intersectionality.
(16:59):
That's like the word that, thatis, that's the hot button word
that's used.
That's the word that is used,being used to describe my book,
I think in early reviews, butthat's not what I was trying to
do there.
I was trying to make a pointabout storytelling and the fact
that we all tell each other,each other and ourselves stories
about our lives.
And the more that we live, themore that hopefully life will
(17:20):
challenge those stories andcomplicate those stories
Brett Benner (17:23):
yeah.
And I don't feel it as muchabout intersectionality as I do,
just, just identity in generaland finding yourself.
Alejandro Heredia (17:29):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (17:30):
And, That time in a young person's life, which
everyone goes through, whichthey're trying to figure out who
I am, where I fit, where I fitin my family, in my community,
in my work life, what am I goingto be, where am I going to go,
It's a time of greatopportunity, but it's also a
(17:52):
time of huge introspection and,growth.
You'll have to help me with thepronunciation of this name.
Is it, uh, Yadiel.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yadiel yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yadiel the L is a greatcharacter in the book who, is
the boyhood friend of Sal's.
He grows up with him.
He, he lives life very largely,he's flamboyant, he very much,
(18:16):
lives on the edge.
Where did the inspiration forthis character come from?
I thought he was such aninteresting character and a
great catalyst, obviously, forso much of the book.
Alejandro Heredia (18:27):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the inspirationfor Yadiel I think this
character came out of, seeing inmy own life people who express
their queerness with such littletrepidation, with so much
bravery, with so little care forwhat people on the bus might
(18:48):
think, people on the train mightthink, people at the park might
think, whatever.
I was not that person.
I was very, as a teenager, as ayoung adult, I was very hyper
vigilant.
very afraid, very anxious.
But I was always very inspiredby people who were not like me
in that way.
so I wanted to, to write adifferent interpretation or a
(19:08):
different version of queernessand my own in this character.
Just based on on reality onpeople that I that I've known in
my life, including, my cousin,Jr, who I dedicate the book to,
he was somebody who just did notcare and was, quote, unquote,
you know, flamboyant or or veryexpressively queer everywhere he
(19:29):
went and did not really.
Stop himself from fromexpressing himself.
Brett Benner (19:33):
I love that.
I and I was exactly like you ButI and I also it's an interesting
thing too because it's also agenerational thing I think
sometimes because I look at myson who is he's 21 And just the
views and the way that he iswith his friends and their views
about sexuality and gender.
(19:54):
It's all, so much more acceptingand so much more, not a big
deal.
Um, with everyone, it's just,you are who you are, and this is
what, you know, we're goingthrough.
And, um, which I think is, is soincredibly amazing.
And I think it speaks to, whatthis book talks about, which is,
family and found family and thepower of community and why it's
(20:18):
so important right now, that weall double down and, be there
for each other.
Sal goes to an astrologist atone point named West because
he's feeling lost.
And I wanted to read just alittle bit, um, which the
astrologist says to him, youknow, for some people it's
astrology, church, drugs.
(20:39):
It's fine if God is dead and allthat, but we need something
between us and the world for ourpeople.
It's always been each other.
And our people, Sal says, likehe's savoring new words, who are
your people?
That's the thing to askyourself.
I loved that so much because,you know, there's this whole,
like we said, conversation aboutfamily and community, but at the
end of the day, I love thatterm, our people, because I know
(21:02):
I've used that a lot, our peopleand who are your people.
And, and even to say verycasually, you know, they're not
my people, or when youunderstand that, and, because I
think sometimes the word familyor the saying word community,
limits, the boundaries of whatthat can actually mean.
Yeah.
And I think it's confining.
(21:22):
Do you agree?
Alejandro Heredia (21:23):
Yeah.
I mean, I, I think as, as, as awriter, I'm in the business of
being really rigorous aboutlanguage and about trying to,
uh, push.
The way that I'm using languageand the way that I'm hearing
language being used in theculture.
I come from a communityorganizing background.
it's what I did for 10, 12 yearsin college, after I graduated
(21:47):
college in a professionalsetting.
And so I, I believe deeply incommunity organizing.
And I also see the ways in whicheven that word community has
been co opted.
By, forces who are not actuallyinterested in community, um, who
are not actually interested in,uh, in collectivity.
they're interested in.
Your pocket and in yourattention and in how much profit
(22:10):
they can make off of you.
And so I, you know, I feel thesame, sometimes the same way
about the, you know, thelanguage of chosen family, you
know, why, why do we need toreplicate the sort of the
biological family stuff?
So it's sort of, figure out howwe might belong beyond the
traditional family setting.
And so that's sort of thelanguage that I landed on in the
(22:34):
novel, this language of who, whoare your people?
And then, you know, not only thenovel doesn't just ask who are
your people?
It also asks, how are youresponsible to your people?
How do you show up to yourpeople?
are your people, the people whoyou get along with all the time?
Can you disagree with yourpeople?
Can you have a falling out?
Right?
Can you have an argument?
(22:55):
Can you fail the people that youlove?
And can you try to atone forsaid failures?
These are all these questionsthat I, that I wanted to ask and
explore throughout the novelthat I think both Sal and Charo
are asking themselves in verydifferent ways.
Sal's asking himself thisquestion in light of great
tragedy that he experienced inthe Dominican Republic before he
(23:16):
migrated.
And Charo was trying to figureit out because she has a
daughter that she's responsibleto.
that she loves deeply, all thewhile feeling estranged and,
oppressed by the domesticresponsibilities that are
expected of her just becauseshe's a, a young woman.
Brett Benner (23:33):
And those kind of gendered stereotypes of, of what
she should be and what sheshould do.
She's incredibly brave and, youknow, I think both these
characters are fighting verymuch against.
Loneliness and feeling isolationin different ways, even in the
midst of being surrounded bypeople who are, familiar to them
and that I think is such a veryreal thing.
(23:54):
Who did you start with?
which character to you camefirst?
Alejandro Heredia (23:57):
So the novel, It began in my mind with Sal and
Chadol speaking, to each other.
So I think that's maybe why thenovel sort of came out the way
that it did ultimately aboutbeing about both of them.
Um, I can't remember what theywere, what that scene ended up
being that I sort of firstimagined.
But I often, when I think of acharacter, it's usually through
(24:18):
hearing them talking.
Sometimes a conversation withothers, sometimes like an inner
monologue, whatever they mightsay to themselves.
And with this novel, it was, itwas Sal Charo talking to each
other, so.
They kind of came at the sametime.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (24:30):
And as you're writing and hearing that, how
does that process work for you?
Do you kind of spitball?
Do you kind of just let themspeak through you and write or
how does that come out?
Alejandro Heredia (24:39):
So it's a lot of notes.
I have a lot of notes on myphone.
When I'm on the bus, when I comeout of the shower, when I'm
doing dishes, whatever, thingswill just come to me and then I
just have to write it down.
So much of writing for me comesout of daydreaming.
Which means that I have to givemy, my brain leisure time, uh,
which means that I need to, youknow, put down the podcast and
put down the television show orput down the YouTube video or
(25:02):
whatever, or social media,whatever it is to allow my brain
to kind of wander and do its ownthing.
So it's a lot of notes at thebeginning, a lot of fragmented
things, but really, So much ofwriting, I figure out while I'm
doing it.
Um, I don't always know whereI'm going.
I don't always know how thingsare going to end up or how, how
(25:23):
our character is going to beuntil I'm literally sitting in
front of my computer writingdown the scene or writing down
the dialogue.
Brett Benner (25:30):
It's almost like in a way it's almost
improvisational.
Alejandro Heredia (25:33):
Yes.
Yeah.
It feels that way.
Yeah.
It feels that way.
And then, you know, that's thefirst draft after that, you
know, I spent five yearsrevising this novel.
And so, um, after, you know, Ithink seven, eight months of the
writing the first draft.
So, it's a lot of the work comesafter, but at least in the first
draft, it really is aboutimprovising and following one's
(25:56):
instincts.
Brett Benner (25:57):
Now, was she, Charo is inspired by anyone in
your life?
Alejandro Heredia (26:02):
No, I don't think so.
I mean, there were questionsthat I had about my mother's
experience and about theexperiences of women like my
mother, like my aunts, andcousins, maybe, women who came
to this country in the lateeighties, early nineties, mid
nineties.
Who, came to this country andlived very lonely lives.
(26:24):
I was curious because, and Ithink this was my mom's
experience at the beginning.
I mean, my mom had, her sisterwas here.
She had a few cousins.
But I think my mom felt reallylonely when she first got here
the first few years and Charo'sstory was inspired by the
question, well, what if my momor women like my mother would
(26:45):
have had friends, a group offriends, who were To get her
through the challenges of beinga young mother, of being a young
immigrant, of You know,exploring all these personal and
existential questions that comeup.
Brett Benner (26:59):
I love the community, the family, the
people, that you create and,especially in terms of gender
identity, but, what I loved somuch is the way that you
introduced, not just thesecharacters, but ancillary ones
like Amy, for example, and theway you did it is, it's almost,
Gender blind and color blind.
(27:20):
where you're reading about thesepeople, and then something gets
revealed later on that tells youwhat's going on.
Who they are in terms of a senseof some sort of identity.
And I love that so much.
The first time I ever hadsomething like that, this is
such a weird thing was when Iwas a kid and I read Stephen
King's It.
Yeah.
And
I remember reading Stephen King's It and the one
character, I don't remember hisname, maybe it was Sam, who was
(27:43):
the friend who was black.
But Stephen King never said thatand you were just going on and
going on and then it was likeyou were well into the book and
there's this incident thathappens that reveals that he is
Black.
And I remember as a kid at thetime that floored me because
first of all, it's so effectivebecause it's, Thank you.
Bringing you into something thatit doesn't matter, right?
(28:05):
You're just attached to theperson.
So Eliminates anything else thatyou might immediately attach to
it at first.
So I think it's beautiful andgreat that you did that
Alejandro Heredia (28:14):
Yeah, no, thank you for noticing that that
is something that I did veryintentionally With with
different characters.
I did it with with Ella.
I did it with Amy.
I did it, you know, with a fewcharacters here and there.
Um, you know, I don't want tomisquote Morrison, but I
remember reading an interview ofhers.
talking specifically aboutintroducing characters and when
(28:35):
you say the race of thecharacter, when you don't say
the race of the character.
And I remember her sayingsomething along the lines of,
and I'm summarizing here, youknow, when you, when you say the
race of the character, you say,both everything, And you also
say nothing, right?
You might say everything about,you know, racial background and
(28:57):
where they're coming from and etcetera, all the sort of surface
things.
But when you say this characteris, Dominican, or you say this
character is black American, andwhen you say whatever ethnicity,
the character is, uh, it's alsonot saying anything about this
person.
person specificity, right?
Um, and that's sort of what Iwas trying to play with a little
(29:18):
bit.
Allowing the, the reader to sortof engage with the character
before knowing that they're notthe specific gender that they
think the character is or thespecific race that they think
the character is.
No, I want you to experience thecharacter for who she is.
And then later on, if it becomesrelevant, then it becomes
relevant, right?
It's kind of, you know, it'sfucking with the reader a little
(29:39):
bit, but I think, we can all,uh, we can all learn, including
myself, to detach ourselves alittle bit from this obsession
with identity that we have, inour contemporary moment.
Brett Benner (29:51):
Yeah.
And it's done so beautifully.
Well, Alejandro, this was such adelight.
I'm so happy for you.
The book is just beautiful.
Congratulations, it's reallyterrific.
I really appreciate you beinghere today.
Alejandro Heredia (30:03):
Yeah.
Thank you for, for your generousreading of the novel, your
questions.
I feel like I'm learning moreabout the book.
As, um, as I was hearing yourquestions,
Brett Benner (30:10):
So, go buy the book.
It's out today.
You can also find a link in mybookshop.
org page, which will also havethe book up there.
But also, buy independent if youcan.
So, thanks so much, and we'lltalk soon.
Hey everybody, it's brett and welcome or
(00:02):
welcome back to another episodeof behind the stack before we
get started with today'sinterview There's a couple of
new releases That I wanted tomention the first being stonyard
devotional by charlotte woodThis is such a fantastic book I
actually read it last yearbecause it was one of the
finalists for the Booker Prize,and, um, it's beautiful.
(00:22):
I just totally tapped in.
So, would highly recommend that.
Also out today, The DollhouseAcademy by Margarita Montemore.
This is the follow up book toUna, Out of Order, which I
really enjoyed.
Um, this seems to be a thriller.
Then, Jojo Moyes has a new bookout, We All Live Here.
And then lastly, this book looksreally interesting to me.
(00:47):
It's called Brother Bronte byFernando Flores.
And it's beautiful.
briefly described as a stunningtale of survival and a biting
critique of book bans and latecapitalism.
So check those all out, and Iwill put all those up on my
bookshop.
org page.
And then my final book today isalso today's guest, Alejandro
Heredia for his debut novelLoco, which is just absolutely
(01:11):
beautiful about two Dominicanimmigrants coming into adulthood
in the Bronx in 1999.
A little bit about Alejandro.
He is a queer Afro Dominicanwriter from the Bronx.
He has received fellowships fromLambda Literary, VONA, the
Dominican Studies Institute,Kenyon Review, and Trinity
College.
In 2019, he was selected byMiriam Gurba as the winner of
(01:33):
the Goldline Press FictionChapbook Contest.
His chapbook of short stories,you're the only friend I need,
explores themes of queertransnationalism, friendship,
and unbelonging in the Africandiaspora.
Heredia's work has been featuredin Teen Vogue, Lambda Literary
Review, The Offing, andelsewhere.
He received an MFA in fictionfrom Hunter College.
(01:54):
Heredia currently serves asBlack Mountain Institute's
Shearing Fellow at theUniversity of Nevada, Las Vegas.
So enjoy this episode of Behindthe Stack.
You
Alejandro, I am so excited to be sitting down to
talk to you today about yourdebut novel, which is just
absolutely beautiful.
(02:15):
So welcome.
Alejandro Heredia (02:16):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having meBrett.
I'm excited to be here
Brett Benner (02:18):
So before we start talking about the book, I just
had some I had some questionsabout you That I'm just so
curious about your parents wereimmigrants, correct?
Alejandro Heredia (02:29):
That's right
Brett Benner (02:30):
and were you, were you born in the States,
Alejandro Heredia (02:33):
I was born in the Dominican Republic, and I
moved to the Bronx when I wasseven years old.
So, I remember very consciouslywhat it was like to move to a
new country, learn a newlanguage, all that stuff.
I came to, I came to New Yorkspecifically in 2001, um, like a
week and a half after 9 11.
Brett Benner (02:53):
Wow.
What a time to come.
Do you have many memories ofyour time in the Dominican
Republic as a child?
Alejandro Heredia (03:00):
I do.
Yes.
Um, I remember my upbringing.
I mean, I had friends there.
I lived with my grandparentscause my parents were here in
the United States.
they came to this country when Iwas like a couple months old, I
think less than one year old.
And so I grew up with mygrandparents, my cousin and my
older brother, we all grew up inthe same house.
(03:22):
yeah, I remember going toschool.
I remember.
Hanging out with the boysoutside of playing baseball.
getting into all kinds oftrouble.
I, I remember it all vividly.
We had a mango tree in thebackyard.
Um, so yeah.
Brett Benner (03:36):
Um, are your parents in the Bronx now as
well?
Alejandro Heredia (03:39):
My mom, my mom is in the Bronx.
My dad lives in Jersey.
My grandparents in the Bronx.
Um, most of my family livesstill lives in the Bronx.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (03:46):
and you just have the one brother?
Alejandro Heredia (03:48):
no, I have, so I have an older brother.
I have two younger brothers anda younger sister.
So I have a Oh, wow.
Two siblings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (03:56):
That's a big family.
Alejandro Heredia (03:57):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (03:57):
Any other writers?
Alejandro Heredia (03:58):
No.
Oh my god, no.
there are no other writers in myfamily.
I remember growing up and Istarted reading books here in
the, in the U S when I startedreading books, people would look
at me like I had two heads.
They were like, what are youdoing?
You're reading books.
You should be out talking togirls or whatever.
And, that turned out to be notan interest of mine for many
(04:20):
reasons, not just books, but,Yeah, no, I'm definitely the
first writer in the family.
Brett Benner (04:25):
So this is a big deal.
Alejandro Heredia (04:27):
I think so.
Yeah.
I mean, I was just, it's funny.
I just texted my cousins thismorning.
Cause we're, I'm trying tocoordinate getting my mom to the
launch party.
My mom understands that I have abook coming out.
But I don't know that it meansthe same thing to me as it does
for my family per se.
They just have a differentunderstanding of it, even though
they're very, very supportive ofthe book coming out and of me
(04:50):
being a writer.
I think they're kind of confusedabout what it is that I do all
day.
They're like, you don't have ajob.
Brett Benner (04:58):
I remember I, cause I was an actor, um, before
I, Started as a casting directorand I, my mom always, I always
get these questions, the samething.
They really didn't understand itor how it worked or even
auditioning.
And I remember my mom used tosay things to me like, why don't
you just go do a commercial?
And I was like, okay, well letme call those people and tell
them I'm ready.
Alejandro Heredia (05:16):
Yes.
Well, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Exactly.
Um, yeah, I just had my, mypartner's dad.
Just gave me a motivationalspeech the other day and he was
like, you know, you need to justcall Oprah.
Just call Oprah.
Let her know that you have abook coming out.
And I was like, yeah, right.
Forgot it.
Did not think about that.
Brett Benner (05:34):
Let me pull her up on speed dial to say, Hey, oh, I
am so ready,
Alejandro Heredia (05:38):
girl.
I know you're waiting.
Brett Benner (05:41):
So, wait, you, as a kid, you originally were not
into reading, correct?
Alejandro Heredia (05:46):
I was not into reading, no.
I hated reading.
I thought it was very boring.
And then something clicked inseventh grade.
I started reading and then Ijust could not stop.
Brett Benner (05:54):
What was the entry book for you?
What, do you remember?
Alejandro Heredia (05:58):
Yes, it was a children's book called Ink
Heart.
Brett Benner (06:01):
Oh my god, I know.
Wow.
If you could explain it for ourlisteners and viewers.
Alejandro Heredia (06:04):
Yes.
It's a novel.
I mean, I'll try to summarizeit.
It's a novel about this fatherand daughter, and I believe they
both have this ability, thatgives them the power to bring to
life whatever they read out loudfrom a book.
it's a book series that reallyfocuses on the power of
storytelling and words andcharacters and, and how people
(06:25):
can really relate to books whenthe characters come alive quite
literally.
So it was quite an interestingfirst book to really bring me
into the world of books, causeit's a book all about the power
of books and words.
Brett Benner (06:38):
Yeah, it's such a great series.
so then how did you get intowriting?
Alejandro Heredia (06:41):
Um, that's a good question.
I don't know exactly when I madethe transition from reading
intensely to wanting to write.
I remember the first piece offiction that I wrote.
It was for a history class.
A teacher had us write about afictional take on the first
contact between Europeans.
(07:02):
and Native Americans.
Like what?
Oh, wow.
We were supposed to sort ofimagine a sort of first contact
story.
And so it was supposed to be onepage, um, was assigned from one
day to another, come back thenext day with a page of what you
imagine this thing was like.
And I ended up writing thatnight, like 14 pages.
(07:22):
And I turned it in to myteacher.
And he was like, Are you okay?
Why did you write all of this?
Um, well, I think that was thefirst moment where I thought,
Oh, that was, that wasinteresting.
I actually liked imagining, um,this world.
Obviously, I was writing aboutsomething that was, quite
devastating.
But still, it was, it wasinteresting and useful for me to
(07:46):
sort of write a scene, writecharacter, write a story.
And then from then on, I thinkat the end of, I always forget
about this, but at the end ofhigh school, I did, um, and I
don't know if this is stillaround, but NaNoWriMo, the
National Novel Writing Month,have you heard of this?
Brett Benner (08:03):
I've not heard of that.
Alejandro Heredia (08:04):
It's a, it's a crazy thing that people do
where they sign up for thiscompetition of sorts where you
are, the goal is to write anovel in a month.
And you get a little likedigital certificate at the end.
But really it's to feel goodabout yourself.
I did that in my senior year ofhigh school or junior year or
something.
And that was, again, that wasfun and I did that.
For me just because I found itpleasurable.
Brett Benner (08:24):
Did you print your digital, certificate?
Alejandro Heredia (08:26):
I did not.
No, I didn't have a printer athome.
So I just kind of let itdisappear.
That's awesome.
So for our listeners, for ourviewers, do you have an elevator
pitch for the book or kind of asummary that you could share?
Yeah, Elevator Pitch Loca isabout, it's a novel about two
best friends, Sal and Charo, whoare trying and failing miserably
(08:50):
to build a new life forthemselves, in the Bronx in
1999.
It's a story about, immigration,queerness, and I think
ultimately a story about,responsibility, the
responsibilities that we have toourselves, and just as
importantly, the kinds ofresponsibility that we have to
ourselves.
To our community.
Brett Benner (09:09):
I have to read some of these blurbs that you've
gotten for the book from, like,some of my favorite writers, and
it's really, really impressive.
Adam Haslett says the mostgenerously written novel I have
read in a very long time, andthat generosity is a beautiful
thing.
Then, Loka asks, how do we findeach other and love each other,
(09:32):
see each other, save each other,and this novel answers again and
again, like this.
And that was from AlexanderChee, And then Rumaan Alam has
said, a queer book, yes.
A Dominican book.
To a Spanglish book.
Sure.
And as such a quintessentiallyAmerican novel, a beautiful one.
I mean, you are just rackingthem in like incredible.
(09:55):
So congrats just on those and,and, and the response that
you've been having.
It's really amazing.
Alejandro Heredia (10:00):
Thank you.
Thank you.
You know,, it is a privilege tobe read at all.
and it is, you know, an evenbigger privilege to be read with
so much generosity andintelligence.
So I, I'm incredibly grateful.
Brett Benner (10:13):
So I'm curious, what led you to the decision of
setting the book in 1999?
Aside from it's a great printsong.
Alejandro Heredia (10:21):
Yes.
Um, that is a great print song.
I really wanted to write a storyabout my parents, generation of
immigrants.
My parents immigrated to theBronx in the mid 90s.
And they were in the Bronx from,from then on.
And I really wanted to capturethat world.
The kinds of relationships thatpeople had, the kinds of
(10:42):
buildings that they lived in,the kind of environments and,
and, and the block, you know, Iwrite a lot about grand
concourse at one seven Oh, causethat's where, that's where I
grew up, but that's also wheremy parents, that was my parents
home when they first arrived, inNew York.
you know, a lot of this novelcame out of a desire to just,
like, freeze in amber, thisworld that I know won't be there
(11:05):
forever, that already haschanged a lot in the past 20
years.
Brett Benner (11:08):
Did you find any of it a challenge, or was it
more liberating in a way?
Alejandro Heredia (11:12):
It was pretty liberating.
It wasn't challenging because Icame to this country in 2001
and, you know, between 1999 and2001, there's not a, there's not
a lot that's different.
Um, so I, I knew a lot about theworld already through my own
experience.
But I had also heard a lot aboutit through my mom.
My mom is a big storyteller.
(11:32):
She loved to tell stories, lovesto tell stories about her,
immigration experience.
And she had always shared withme, you know, all the trials and
tribulations that she hadexperienced when, when she first
arrived in the Bronx.
And so I already sort of had, aninternal database to pull from.
So it wasn't very challenging inthat way.
Brett Benner (11:52):
Was there anyone in the queer community that you
were able to pick their brain?
Alejandro Heredia (11:56):
Yes.
I asked a few people, but mymain source of information was
William Johnson, who is, I seehim as a mentor of mine.
he currently works at PanAmerica.
That's where we met.
Cause I used to work there acouple of years ago.
and while I was writing thenovel, I, I think I already had
a draft of it in there, but,while I was revising, I would
(12:19):
ask William a lot of questionsabout like queer New York city
life in the 1990s and one of thethings that he.
taught me, which to me shouldhave been obvious, but that I
just didn't know because Ihadn't experienced.
And, you know, he taught methat, you know, there were queer
things happening in the Bronx inthe 1990s.
There were, there was actually aclub, that was open that I think
(12:40):
closing like 2006 or 2007.
that he used to go to.
And so it was, it sort ofreoriented a lot of my.
Vision for the novel and helpedme focus some of the queer party
scenes that happened in thenovel, um, in, in the Bronx.
Some of it does happen inManhattan.
And sort of traditionally queerspaces like the village.
(13:02):
but, Vance, for example, he has,his house parties in the Bronx
and that's for the queer people.
so it was really important forme to have mentorship in that
way.
Cause I did not live throughthat at that time.
Brett Benner (13:13):
As you said in the beginning, it's really follows
these two characters.
they've divergent paths in someways about their own experiences
being two different immigrantsin the Bronx, both of them kind
of looking for their sense ofidentity, how they fit, how they
forge their own paths.
Did you know in constructionthat you wanted to kind of make
these two separate storiesbecause they come back together,
(13:36):
certainly, and they're alwayskind of tethered together, but
they are very two distinctnarratives.
Alejandro Heredia (13:41):
Yeah, I knew that I wanted to write a novel
about friendship from thebeginning.
And so it was always clear to methat the novel had to be about
Sal and Charo, and that theyneeded to have their own thing
going on, as best friends oftendo.
Um, as friends often do.
but I didn't always have an ideaof what the structure of the
(14:04):
novel would be like.
And that was something that Istruggled with quite a bit.
At the beginning of the novelseemed to focus a lot on Sal and
the novel structured verydifferently.
And then through the editorialprocess, I was able to move some
things around.
I added those extra scenes ofCharo's past, which I think
really rounded out her characterand allowed us to understand
(14:26):
where she's coming from, her ownimmigration story, and her past
and how that informs the choicesthat she makes in the novel,
because she makes some, somepretty, I think severe choices,
throughout the book.
So it took some time to, tofind, some footing with her
character, but From the feedbackthat I'm getting, some people
seem to like her more than theylike Sal.
(14:46):
So,
Brett Benner (14:47):
oh, that's so interesting.
And I'm not giving anythingaway, but I, I understand some
of that in a way because herchoices feel, I don't want to
say logical, but I'm alsothinking about it as somebody
who's coming at it in 2025 andlooking at these choices versus
1999.
And so I think that informsthings as well.
(15:08):
I want to start with Sal alittle bit.
You talk about he's a, he's animmigrant, he's a gay immigrant.
the, the specificity, and thisis kind of somewhat from just
from your text, the specificityof being Dominican and that
difference from say Mexicans orCentral Americans.
Are these conversations you'vehad that he's had in your own
mind?
Are these things that came upfor you?
And did you find any of your ownjourney in regards to your
(15:29):
sexuality and acceptance of whoyou are informed who Sal was?
Alejandro Heredia (15:33):
Yeah.
I mean, I'm sure in some ways,some of me seeped into some of
the questions that Sal's askinghimself around, his queerness.
I mean, we have differentexperiences.
I immigrated to New York when Iwas seven.
And so in so many ways, I'm, I'mjust a very American person.
and Sal immigrated and he was 19years old.
And I think it's different whenyou are, a fully, almost a fully
(15:57):
formed adult, and then coming toa new country, your relationship
to the other country, yourrelationship to the new country,
all of that is, is quitedifferent than, than my own
experience.
But certainly I had a, therewere some questions that I had
about my own experience in myown life that I was sort of
teasing out.
Through that character andthrough, through that
character's experiences.
(16:17):
I was particularly interested inthis question that, a lot of
immigrants are told about hardwork.
That section that you just readabout from the novel is Sal
asking himself, or saying tohimself, I was told this story
from my, by my mother that if Iworked very, very hard, I would
be successful.
Things were kind of just, uh,open up before me and I would be
fine in this country.
(16:38):
But I'm being introduced andbeing challenged to think about
my story in all these differentways.
And it's getting really hard tofigure it out because the story
is more complicated than Ithought.
It was, um, to me, that wasreally important to write.
And I, I think some people mightsee that as me sort of tackling
what people call, uh,intersectionality.
(16:59):
That's like the word that, thatis, that's the hot button word
that's used.
That's the word that is used,being used to describe my book,
I think in early reviews, butthat's not what I was trying to
do there.
I was trying to make a pointabout storytelling and the fact
that we all tell each other,each other and ourselves stories
about our lives.
And the more that we live, themore that hopefully life will
(17:20):
challenge those stories andcomplicate those stories
Brett Benner (17:23):
yeah.
And I don't feel it as muchabout intersectionality as I do,
just, just identity in generaland finding yourself.
Alejandro Heredia (17:29):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (17:30):
And, That time in a young person's life, which
everyone goes through, whichthey're trying to figure out who
I am, where I fit, where I fitin my family, in my community,
in my work life, what am I goingto be, where am I going to go,
It's a time of greatopportunity, but it's also a
(17:52):
time of huge introspection and,growth.
You'll have to help me with thepronunciation of this name.
Is it, uh, Yadiel.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yadiel yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yadiel the L is a greatcharacter in the book who, is
the boyhood friend of Sal's.
He grows up with him.
He, he lives life very largely,he's flamboyant, he very much,
(18:16):
lives on the edge.
Where did the inspiration forthis character come from?
I thought he was such aninteresting character and a
great catalyst, obviously, forso much of the book.
Alejandro Heredia (18:27):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the inspirationfor Yadiel I think this
character came out of, seeing inmy own life people who express
their queerness with such littletrepidation, with so much
bravery, with so little care forwhat people on the bus might
(18:48):
think, people on the train mightthink, people at the park might
think, whatever.
I was not that person.
I was very, as a teenager, as ayoung adult, I was very hyper
vigilant.
very afraid, very anxious.
But I was always very inspiredby people who were not like me
in that way.
so I wanted to, to write adifferent interpretation or a
(19:08):
different version of queernessand my own in this character.
Just based on on reality onpeople that I that I've known in
my life, including, my cousin,Jr, who I dedicate the book to,
he was somebody who just did notcare and was, quote, unquote,
you know, flamboyant or or veryexpressively queer everywhere he
(19:29):
went and did not really.
Stop himself from fromexpressing himself.
Brett Benner (19:33):
I love that.
I and I was exactly like you ButI and I also it's an interesting
thing too because it's also agenerational thing I think
sometimes because I look at myson who is he's 21 And just the
views and the way that he iswith his friends and their views
about sexuality and gender.
(19:54):
It's all, so much more acceptingand so much more, not a big
deal.
Um, with everyone, it's just,you are who you are, and this is
what, you know, we're goingthrough.
And, um, which I think is, is soincredibly amazing.
And I think it speaks to, whatthis book talks about, which is,
family and found family and thepower of community and why it's
(20:18):
so important right now, that weall double down and, be there
for each other.
Sal goes to an astrologist atone point named West because
he's feeling lost.
And I wanted to read just alittle bit, um, which the
astrologist says to him, youknow, for some people it's
astrology, church, drugs.
(20:39):
It's fine if God is dead and allthat, but we need something
between us and the world for ourpeople.
It's always been each other.
And our people, Sal says, likehe's savoring new words, who are
your people?
That's the thing to askyourself.
I loved that so much because,you know, there's this whole,
like we said, conversation aboutfamily and community, but at the
end of the day, I love thatterm, our people, because I know
(21:02):
I've used that a lot, our peopleand who are your people.
And, and even to say verycasually, you know, they're not
my people, or when youunderstand that, and, because I
think sometimes the word familyor the saying word community,
limits, the boundaries of whatthat can actually mean.
Yeah.
And I think it's confining.
(21:22):
Do you agree?
Alejandro Heredia (21:23):
Yeah.
I mean, I, I think as, as, as awriter, I'm in the business of
being really rigorous aboutlanguage and about trying to,
uh, push.
The way that I'm using languageand the way that I'm hearing
language being used in theculture.
I come from a communityorganizing background.
it's what I did for 10, 12 yearsin college, after I graduated
(21:47):
college in a professionalsetting.
And so I, I believe deeply incommunity organizing.
And I also see the ways in whicheven that word community has
been co opted.
By, forces who are not actuallyinterested in community, um, who
are not actually interested in,uh, in collectivity.
they're interested in.
Your pocket and in yourattention and in how much profit
(22:10):
they can make off of you.
And so I, you know, I feel thesame, sometimes the same way
about the, you know, thelanguage of chosen family, you
know, why, why do we need toreplicate the sort of the
biological family stuff?
So it's sort of, figure out howwe might belong beyond the
traditional family setting.
And so that's sort of thelanguage that I landed on in the
(22:34):
novel, this language of who, whoare your people?
And then, you know, not only thenovel doesn't just ask who are
your people?
It also asks, how are youresponsible to your people?
How do you show up to yourpeople?
are your people, the people whoyou get along with all the time?
Can you disagree with yourpeople?
Can you have a falling out?
Right?
Can you have an argument?
(22:55):
Can you fail the people that youlove?
And can you try to atone forsaid failures?
These are all these questionsthat I, that I wanted to ask and
explore throughout the novelthat I think both Sal and Charo
are asking themselves in verydifferent ways.
Sal's asking himself thisquestion in light of great
tragedy that he experienced inthe Dominican Republic before he
(23:16):
migrated.
And Charo was trying to figureit out because she has a
daughter that she's responsibleto.
that she loves deeply, all thewhile feeling estranged and,
oppressed by the domesticresponsibilities that are
expected of her just becauseshe's a, a young woman.
Brett Benner (23:33):
And those kind of gendered stereotypes of, of what
she should be and what sheshould do.
She's incredibly brave and, youknow, I think both these
characters are fighting verymuch against.
Loneliness and feeling isolationin different ways, even in the
midst of being surrounded bypeople who are, familiar to them
and that I think is such a veryreal thing.
(23:54):
Who did you start with?
which character to you camefirst?
Alejandro Heredia (23:57):
So the novel, It began in my mind with Sal and
Chadol speaking, to each other.
So I think that's maybe why thenovel sort of came out the way
that it did ultimately aboutbeing about both of them.
Um, I can't remember what theywere, what that scene ended up
being that I sort of firstimagined.
But I often, when I think of acharacter, it's usually through
(24:18):
hearing them talking.
Sometimes a conversation withothers, sometimes like an inner
monologue, whatever they mightsay to themselves.
And with this novel, it was, itwas Sal Charo talking to each
other, so.
They kind of came at the sametime.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (24:30):
And as you're writing and hearing that, how
does that process work for you?
Do you kind of spitball?
Do you kind of just let themspeak through you and write or
how does that come out?
Alejandro Heredia (24:39):
So it's a lot of notes.
I have a lot of notes on myphone.
When I'm on the bus, when I comeout of the shower, when I'm
doing dishes, whatever, thingswill just come to me and then I
just have to write it down.
So much of writing for me comesout of daydreaming.
Which means that I have to givemy, my brain leisure time, uh,
which means that I need to, youknow, put down the podcast and
put down the television show orput down the YouTube video or
(25:02):
whatever, or social media,whatever it is to allow my brain
to kind of wander and do its ownthing.
So it's a lot of notes at thebeginning, a lot of fragmented
things, but really, So much ofwriting, I figure out while I'm
doing it.
Um, I don't always know whereI'm going.
I don't always know how thingsare going to end up or how, how
(25:23):
our character is going to beuntil I'm literally sitting in
front of my computer writingdown the scene or writing down
the dialogue.
Brett Benner (25:30):
It's almost like in a way it's almost
improvisational.
Alejandro Heredia (25:33):
Yes.
Yeah.
It feels that way.
Yeah.
It feels that way.
And then, you know, that's thefirst draft after that, you
know, I spent five yearsrevising this novel.
And so, um, after, you know, Ithink seven, eight months of the
writing the first draft.
So, it's a lot of the work comesafter, but at least in the first
draft, it really is aboutimprovising and following one's
(25:56):
instincts.
Brett Benner (25:57):
Now, was she, Charo is inspired by anyone in
your life?
Alejandro Heredia (26:02):
No, I don't think so.
I mean, there were questionsthat I had about my mother's
experience and about theexperiences of women like my
mother, like my aunts, andcousins, maybe, women who came
to this country in the lateeighties, early nineties, mid
nineties.
Who, came to this country andlived very lonely lives.
(26:24):
I was curious because, and Ithink this was my mom's
experience at the beginning.
I mean, my mom had, her sisterwas here.
She had a few cousins.
But I think my mom felt reallylonely when she first got here
the first few years and Charo'sstory was inspired by the
question, well, what if my momor women like my mother would
(26:45):
have had friends, a group offriends, who were To get her
through the challenges of beinga young mother, of being a young
immigrant, of You know,exploring all these personal and
existential questions that comeup.
Brett Benner (26:59):
I love the community, the family, the
people, that you create and,especially in terms of gender
identity, but, what I loved somuch is the way that you
introduced, not just thesecharacters, but ancillary ones
like Amy, for example, and theway you did it is, it's almost,
Gender blind and color blind.
(27:20):
where you're reading about thesepeople, and then something gets
revealed later on that tells youwhat's going on.
Who they are in terms of a senseof some sort of identity.
And I love that so much.
The first time I ever hadsomething like that, this is
such a weird thing was when Iwas a kid and I read Stephen
King's It.
Yeah.
And
I remember reading Stephen King's It and the one
character, I don't remember hisname, maybe it was Sam, who was
(27:43):
the friend who was black.
But Stephen King never said thatand you were just going on and
going on and then it was likeyou were well into the book and
there's this incident thathappens that reveals that he is
Black.
And I remember as a kid at thetime that floored me because
first of all, it's so effectivebecause it's, Thank you.
Bringing you into something thatit doesn't matter, right?
(28:05):
You're just attached to theperson.
So Eliminates anything else thatyou might immediately attach to
it at first.
So I think it's beautiful andgreat that you did that
Alejandro Heredia (28:14):
Yeah, no, thank you for noticing that that
is something that I did veryintentionally With with
different characters.
I did it with with Ella.
I did it with Amy.
I did it, you know, with a fewcharacters here and there.
Um, you know, I don't want tomisquote Morrison, but I
remember reading an interview ofhers.
talking specifically aboutintroducing characters and when
(28:35):
you say the race of thecharacter, when you don't say
the race of the character.
And I remember her sayingsomething along the lines of,
and I'm summarizing here, youknow, when you, when you say the
race of the character, you say,both everything, And you also
say nothing, right?
You might say everything about,you know, racial background and
(28:57):
where they're coming from and etcetera, all the sort of surface
things.
But when you say this characteris, Dominican, or you say this
character is black American, andwhen you say whatever ethnicity,
the character is, uh, it's alsonot saying anything about this
person.
person specificity, right?
Um, and that's sort of what Iwas trying to play with a little
(29:18):
bit.
Allowing the, the reader to sortof engage with the character
before knowing that they're notthe specific gender that they
think the character is or thespecific race that they think
the character is.
No, I want you to experience thecharacter for who she is.
And then later on, if it becomesrelevant, then it becomes
relevant, right?
It's kind of, you know, it'sfucking with the reader a little
(29:39):
bit, but I think, we can all,uh, we can all learn, including
myself, to detach ourselves alittle bit from this obsession
with identity that we have, inour contemporary moment.
Brett Benner (29:51):
Yeah.
And it's done so beautifully.
Well, Alejandro, this was such adelight.
I'm so happy for you.
The book is just beautiful.
Congratulations, it's reallyterrific.
I really appreciate you beinghere today.
Alejandro Heredia (30:03):
Yeah.
Thank you for, for your generousreading of the novel, your
questions.
I feel like I'm learning moreabout the book.
As, um, as I was hearing yourquestions,
Brett Benner (30:10):
So, go buy the book.
It's out today.
You can also find a link in mybookshop.
org page, which will also havethe book up there.
But also, buy independent if youcan.
So, thanks so much, and we'lltalk soon.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.