February 25, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with Allison Epstein to discuss her new book, Fagin The Thief. They talk about the reimagining of literary characters, her inspiration for taking on Fagin, and agree on a pretty awful song from the musical Oliver.
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https://allisonepstein.com/
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https://www.instagram.com/rapscallison/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hello, everyone, and welcome or welcome back to
(00:02):
another episode of Behind theStack with me, Brett Benner.
I hope you're all doing well.
I was out last night a littlelate.
I went to the Screen Actor GuildAwards last night, My business
partner, Debbie and I got askedto go because of casting
shrinking and the shrinking castwas up for best ensemble last
(00:23):
night.
which unfortunately they didn'twin.
They really should have, but itwas really fun.
Uh, I actually had too much fun.
But I am definitely, uh, payingfor it today.
Anyway, a couple of new bookscoming out, including, uh,
today's guest.
So I just wanted to share someof these titles that sound
(00:45):
particularly interesting to me.
The first one is CurtisSittenfeld's new book show don't
tell, which is a collection ofshort stories, including, one of
them, which is revisiting hercharacters from.
Her book Prep.
Then, The Strange Case of JaneO.
by Karen Thompson Walker.
I actually, uh, I listened tothis one already and really
(01:08):
liked it.
It's really interesting about,two shifty narratives between a,
Psychologist and his patient,who is a young woman who seems
to have these moments in herlife when she disappears and
completely checks out, um, andhas no recollection of what
happens during these times.
(01:28):
So it's, it's really interestingand interesting.
It's intriguing and yeah, it'sgreat.
And then the last book that Iwanted to bring up, it's called
The Boyhood of Cain by MichaelAmherst, which I read and I
really liked this.
It's about a young, sensitive,Boy whose father loses his job
and so the family moves to thecountryside and in the English
(01:51):
countryside, he starts at a newschool and there's another new
student who comes in as well.
And they kind of forge afriendship and begin to take.
Classes with an art teacher andwhat happens.
It's beautifully written.
It's not a very long novel, butit's really great.
and as I was saying earlier, ourguest today, her book also comes
(02:14):
out today, she that I'mreferring to is Alison Epstein
and the book is Fagin the Thief.
a little bit about Alison.
She earned her MFA in fictionfrom Northwestern University and
a BA in creative writing fromthe University of Michigan.
A Michigan native, she now livesin Chicago where she enjoys good
theater, bad puns, and fancyjackets.
(02:37):
She's the author of historicalnovels including A Tip for the
Hangman, Let Dead Bury the Dead,and now Feg and the Thief.
So, enjoy this episode of Behindthe Stack.
You
Good morning.
Allison Epstein (02:56):
Good morning.
How are you?
Brett Benner (02:58):
I'm good.
So first I just want to say yourbook, I loved it so much.
I just think it's excellent.
So I was really excited to sitdown with you today.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Allison Epstein (03:08):
Thanks for having me on.
I'm really excited about it.
Brett Benner (03:10):
so, for our, our listeners, our viewers, do you
have an elevator pitch for thebook?
Allison Epstein (03:14):
My elevator pitch for the book is very much
the title of the book, which isnice.
It kind of sells itself in thatway.
But, um, Fagin the Thief is theretelling of Dickens Oliver
Twist from the point of view ofthe notorious villain Fagin.
So it is very much what it sayson the tin and I love that about
it.
Brett Benner (03:33):
It does all the work for you.
It
Allison Epstein (03:35):
really does.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (03:38):
Okay.
So like this whole idea of, ofcharacters from another story,
you know, we've seen this a lotwith like, Louis Bayer did it
with Tiny Tim and Mr.
Timothy.
Dan Simmons did it with EdwinDrood.
Um, obviously the big ones rightnow are, um, because it's all in
the zeitgeist, is, is the WickedWitch, Gregory Maguire's Wicked.
And, and of course mostrecently, James by Percival
Everett, which, which, you know,Everett had said, this is not a
(04:00):
reimagining really, but acharacter who's getting their
due.
Was that in many ways what youfelt about Fagin when you
started writing this?
Allison Epstein (04:08):
Yes and no, I think there's a lot of, my
approach to this at first wasfrustration with the way that
Dickens had originally writtenFagin, which is, I mean, he's
one of the most famous antiSemitic stereotypes in English
literature.
I think the only one he'sfighting for that title is
Shylock.
So when you think of theterrible Jew in literature,
you're like, Oh yeah, Fagin, thenasty old Jew.
(04:29):
Of course, that's frustrating asa, as a reader, but part of the
reason why I wanted to work withFagin is because I do sort of
love him as a character, eventhough he is, I mean, terribly
offensive and two dimensional inthe original, there's also still
something in him that attractedme to him as a character, that I
(04:51):
have been trying, I've beenthinking about this now for
years, like, why am I weirdly inlove with this anti semitic
caricature that's directlytrying to make fun of me.
But there's something in whatDickens started to do that's so
interesting with Fagin.
He started creating a characterthat I find really fascinating
and then he just said, and alsohe's Jewish and he's the villain
(05:12):
and I'm done now.
And it was, it was sort ofgiving a character their due in
that all the raw materials arethere for something really
interesting.
I just wanted someone to do it.
And if no one was going to doit, then I would do it myself.
Brett Benner (05:25):
Yeah, because that was my, that was my question.
It's like, you know, what ledyou to do this initially?
So, so how long were this kindof germinating for you?
Allison Epstein (05:34):
Um, there are two answers to that and one of
them is I've been working on thebook for about four years.
I think this has beengerminating for me since I was
like seven years old, probably.
Brett Benner (05:44):
Wow.
Allison Epstein (05:45):
I first encountered Fagin in, I think a
lot of us do, in the musicaladaptation, Oliver! I was a
theater kid from a theaterfamily and stuff.
So I like, saw a production ofOliver as a touring company when
I was six or seven years old.
And Fagin's the best characterin that show, hands down,
there's no question.
His songs are the best, he'slike, comic relief, but also
(06:08):
kind of threatening, which isthe best way to have a stage
character.
And so from then on, I wasreally in love with that
incarnation of the character.
And as I got older and, youknow, wanted to read the source
material for what was behindthat, I picked up the book when
I was probably 12 or 13 and it'sa very different experience than
that stage show.
So reconciling those two thingswas quite a, quite a situation.
Brett Benner (06:32):
Yeah, first of all, there's so many great
things that you talk about inthe afterwards, which I'm going
to be Pulling from some of that.
And it's such a funny thing tosay, like, there will be no
spoilers, but for anybody whoknows anything about the source
material, it's kind of like,okay, it's a done deal.
However, you know, you talkedabout the, the, the version that
you are working from orconsulting said the word Jew
(06:53):
appears 326 times in the 1867version, which is.
Absurd.
I can't imagine reading that assomeone who was Jewish and that
completely coming at me the sameway that I couldn't imagine kind
of a derogatory term for,homosexuality and reading it
that much in a thing.
So that had to be off putting tosay the least.
Allison Epstein (07:12):
It, it was off putting.
At a certain point, you justdon't hear it anymore when
you're reading the book.
I just, my eyes just glaze overit at a certain point.
I mean, it's 300 and.
whatever times it is.
At a certain point, there's somuch anti Semitism in classic
literature that if you're goingto study books from the 17, 18,
1900s, I just like, it became agame to me in college.
(07:34):
I was like, Oh, I wonder howmany pages we're going to get
until they say something weirdabout the Jews.
Brett Benner (07:38):
It's like a drinking game.
Allison Epstein (07:40):
It is.
The best one is, uh, DavidCopperfield, which made it, that
book is like 1200 pages long andDickens made it 1150 pages
before saying something weirdabout the Jews.
Dang it, Dickens! You were soclose!
Brett Benner (07:52):
Okay, I have no idea to the answer to this, so
maybe you could speak to it.
Was he anti Semitic?
Allison Epstein (07:57):
I mean, that's always a tricky question when
you're talking about somebodyfrom the past.
Because our standards for Imean, even today, how, how do
you define anti Semitism is awhole conversation that we can
have on, I think, probably anentirely different podcast, but,
um, Dickens relationship toJudaism is actually really
interesting.
(08:17):
And I talk about this a littlebit in the afterward of the book
because I don't think herealized while he was writing
Oliver Twist.
that he was really leaning intothis common stereotype at the
time of the wicked miserly childsnatching Jew.
I think he probably knewsubconsciously, but it took a
Jewish reader writing him aletter to say, did you know what
(08:40):
you did with this character?
Do you know how hurtful thiswas?
And that, that reader wrote himthe letter and it took him
probably five, six, 10 years tosit with that.
But eventually he did.
write another Jewish characterin a later book, Our Mutual
Friend, which is often read tobe his apology for doing such a
terrible job with Sagan, and hewrites this.
(09:00):
nice, kind Jewish man who comesin to save the day.
So I think he was, he waswilling to hear that his
representation was harmful.
We can talk all day aboutwhether Our Mutual Friend is a
good book or not.
Again, that's not the point ofthis conversation.
Brett Benner (09:16):
and by the way, I think that's the one Dickens
book.
I mean like, hello, who evenread it?
Except for people who are, uh,you know, completists or,
scholarly but that's the, I'mlike mutual friend, but yeah, I
wonder if it's for him or it'skind of like today you'd say,
you know, he's the, he's thattypical person who'd be
protesting.
Well, you know, some of my bestfriends are Jewish, so, you
know,
Allison Epstein (09:37):
they're so nice.
Brett Benner (09:38):
Yes, exactly.
One of the things I love aboutthe book so much, and it's the
obvious thing we've alreadytalked about, but the way that
you've turned so much of this onits head in terms of all of
these characters and the way weview them.
And Fagin, he really does becomeincredibly sympathetic.
(09:58):
And, you really feel for him.
for all of them, except maybeBill Sykes, but even Bill has
his moments I wanted to talk alittle bit about the
relationship between Bill andFagin, um, and, and your
exploration of that.
because I think it'sfascinating, to see that with
these, these two men, Fagan ifnot for his, uh, kind of
(10:18):
financial standing and the factthat he lives like he does would
probably be this, you know,almost as proper gentleman.
Right.
And he's, he's very kind of, uh,I don't want to say affected,
but he's, he's much more kind ofproper.
Yes.
But, you know, and, and Bill iscompletely tempestuous,
completely no impulse control.
Allison Epstein (10:37):
Yeah, their relationship is one of my
favorite things about this book.
And I will say, I am, I'm a BillSykes apologist in this book.
He's a problem, but he's myproblem.
Brett Benner (10:47):
It's very fun.
He's such a bad boy.
He's such the guy that so manywomen and men would be like, Oh
my god, I get it.
Allison Epstein (10:54):
Yeah, like, okay, there we go.
Yeah, but you're absolutelyright.
They are, they're opposites inso many ways, but they're so
tangled up in each other in thisstory.
And I was starting to see partsof that in the original text as
well.
I mean, they've, in, in theDickens novel, they've been
together, you can tell, foryears and years and years, and
obviously there's somethingkeeping them together.
(11:17):
They, they are kind of alwayssniping at each other's throats,
but they wouldn't still beworking together if it wasn't
useful in some way.
And so what I wanted to find outwhen I was exploring both of
those characters is, okay, Iknow where they end up, where
did they start, what made themwant to have a partnership in
the first place, and what aboutthat partnership was good in
(11:39):
some way enough to have themstick together through all of
these terrible things that wethen see happen later on.
There's sort of like, it's not afather son relationship between
them, it's way too messed up tobe that, but there, it's not not
that either, there's a sensethat Fagin feels this sense of
responsibility to kind of guideBill away from what he sees Bill
(12:03):
as capable of becoming andwhether that's because he thinks
he can, he can fix him, he cansave him, or if it's You know,
that's a path that I could havebeen on myself and I don't want
to be there.
There's a lot of projectiongoing on in their relationship
for, for sure, but there'ssomething there that just is so
interesting to
Brett Benner (12:22):
me.
Yeah.
No, it's, it's, is it, you know,father son or, you know, it's,
it's, it, they're, they'redefinitely the, uh, The odd
couple, going back to, to Faginas a, as a young boy and, and
your kind of imagining of thisis his relationship with his
mother, Leah, and they're kindof the world to each other.
And I loved this relationship aswell.
(12:44):
You talk about Fagin's fatherwas, was a thief as well,
correct?
And who was caught and, and wasput, to death.
It just made me start to thinkthat here you have this son who
ends up in the same exactprofession his father did.
do you think we ever escape ourorigins?
Allison Epstein (13:02):
I think the more we try to, the less we do.
I mean, this whole book is bigand trying not to become his
father.
And by God, by the end of this,every single step that he's
taken has taken him in thatdirection to become the one
thing he didn't necessarily wantto be.
I think we're We're absolutelyshaped by where we come from,
but I think the other thing inthis book that was interesting
(13:22):
to me is we're shaped by whopeople think we're going to be.
I don't know what else Faginreally could have become other
than what his father was in thisbook.
He wasn't really given a path tobe anything other than a father.
The thief that everybody alreadythought he was, the criminal
they thought he was.
What, was he going to go and geta job and become a medical
(13:42):
doctor and set up practice?
Absolutely not.
It's not going to happen.
Brett Benner (13:45):
And when you also look at his, where he's growing
up and his background and hefalls in with this group of, of
young boys, It made me think ofso many neighborhoods and so
many young people who aregrowing up and do you ever
escape that life and what it isand how do you step up and out
of it.
It draws so many parallels with,things now.
(14:07):
And that's what I felt about alot of the book it feels very
much of the time while alsofeeling very contemporary, one
of those.
Other things in terms ofparallels is this whole idea.
And I talk about this a lot inthose podcasts, which is the
idea of found family.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthis too?
Because in terms of in thisworld and what Fagin creates, in
(14:27):
the original Fagin is lookingfor boys to pluck off the street
to help him.
And in this, all of them come tohim.
He Is known and has areputation, but all of these
young boys show up on hisdoorstep.
Allison Epstein (14:40):
Yeah, it's funny.
I hadn't thought about it asfound family until my publisher
described it as a found familystory.
And then I was like, Oh, ohgosh, it is.
I didn't, I didn't realize, butyeah.
And I think that's part of theenergy of the original Oliver
Twist that I think drawn, drewme into it.
It's that sense of none of theseboys have anywhere else to go,
but they have this and they havethis sort of, joy is the wrong
(15:01):
word, but there's joy in it thatthey, they make for each other.
And I think a lot of adaptationsplay up the found family and the
joy and the delight of thesekids kind of making their way in
the world.
And they, they play down the,the social realism that Dickens
was leading into.
But I do think there's, there'sroom for, for both of those.
There can be something weirdlybeautiful in we're making a
(15:23):
group of ourselves against theworld even though the world
doesn't want us here.
It was important to me to thinkabout how Fagin's found family
comes to him.
And it was a deliberate choiceto have him not be, you know,
prowling through the streetslooking for kids.
Not only is that, like, creepy.
Yes! Like, it's really hard tomake your character even
(15:44):
remotely sympathetic if that'shappening.
But, it was also, like,interesting to me to have that.
Because For two reasons.
One, that is something thathappens in these times.
There were professional thieftrainers who were like really
great in the profession and thenonce they got older or wanted to
kind of transition out of thatwork, they would then kind of
(16:05):
set up shop and people couldcome and learn the trade from
them, which I just loved as acareer move.
Brett Benner (16:10):
So.
And everything down to like whothey, who they take their items
to, to resell them, all of that,they have a whole network and,
and as you say in the, in thestory, it's effectively what was
done to him, you know, with thischaracter who takes him under
his wing and kind of teaches himhow to do this.
So it is kind of, weirdly, uh,passing on kind of an expertise
(16:32):
or a job skill as it were, evenif it's illegal.
Allison Epstein (16:36):
It is, but it's also how can I pass this on in
the way that it wasn't given tome?
Can I do this better than how Iwas left?
Can I set up these kids betterthan they set me up to succeed?
Brett Benner (16:45):
You have some changes, the book kind of
follows its own line and thencomes into the track of the
Oliver's story that many peopleknow.
Um, did some of those thingsreveal themselves to you as you
went through and thought, okay,well, I would like to do this,
or, did you kind of break it alldown in terms of an outline and
knew exactly where everybody wasgoing to be headed?
Allison Epstein (17:04):
Um, I knew.
three quarters of where I washeaded.
The last, quarter of the bookdid kind of surprise me in the
drafting of it.
I knew what I didn't want tohappen.
I knew I wasn't exactly marriedto the ending of Oliver Twist,
but I sort of needed to work myway through, okay, well then how
does it end?
But I did have a sense of whereI wanted to intersect with the
(17:24):
original book and what parts ofthe original book I wasn't
particularly interested inincluding in the story.
There's a whole subplot thatevery single time I read it in
Oliver Twist, I'm just turningpages like, can we get back to
the stuff that I care about?
So I left that one out for, forthe obvious reasons, the whole
like rich grandfather of Oliver.
I don't, I don't know anybodywho's like, that's my favorite
(17:45):
part of that book.
Brett Benner (17:46):
I love that Oliver is almost an afterthought.
I mean, we see him, but it's,it's, it's, you know, it's
almost like in billing, it wouldsay special appearance by
Oliver.
Exactly.
Yeah.
This is another thing, atestament to your writing and to
the book itself is I foundmyself furiously getting through
the last 40 pages like it was athriller, despite the fact, you
(18:07):
know how this ends.
And that's why I love what youdid, because it's not exactly
the same thing.
And to be honest, I like yourversion better.
And speaking of characterswhere, you know, it's going to
end and I loved so much isNancy.
I, I loved her.
I loved her.
Like I don't always, I'm acasting director.
I don't always read books andthink, God, who could I see for
(18:29):
this role?
But it was just going through myhead.
I've thought so many greatactresses that would tear this
thing up, but.
I just fell in love with her.
I loved her relationship withFagin, and of course, her very
complicated relationship withBill.
Allison Epstein (18:44):
Yeah, she's great.
She's a trip.
Thank you.
I love her.
And she was honestly, she wasone of the other characters I
wanted to have to give her herdue in Percival Everett's terms.
I think very often she's, she'sflattened out of what is
recognizable to me as, you know,as a woman in a relationship
that is.
(19:05):
slowly killing you by inches.
That is, I think, something thatDickens wanted to express in a
way that felt true to him, butit never rings true to me when I
read her in that book.
It's so much more complicatedand messy and beautiful than
what he shows us, which is just,she'll follow him to the ends of
the earth for, for no reason.
(19:27):
And I worked through this a lotwith my editor, actually,
because it was really importantto me to show at some point.
Bill and Nancy's relationshipwas good.
It had to be.
She wouldn't stay with him if itwasn't, at one point, there was
something there that she wasgetting from him that was
valuable and worth it to her.
And I think that's the realtragedy of, of her, is that you
(19:49):
can see when we meet her, you,you should not be in this, but
she can't see it because it usedto be something else.
And that's what she's lookingat.
Brett Benner (19:58):
Well, and I think you make a very, there is a
moment in the book and I won't,you know, obviously not gonna
give anything away, but there'sa very distinct turning point
when The pieces on thechessboard for perceptibly all
of them.
And because I do think that shehas a way with Bill in terms of
tempering him and bringing outsomething in him that before her
(20:21):
that we haven't seen.
And that's what's, so beautifuland also so heartbreaking about
the whole thing.
And I have to be completelyhonest with you.
Like so many, so many times asI'm reading through sections,
all I could hear is that stupidsong.
As long as he needs me, which of
Allison Epstein (20:36):
course,
Brett Benner (20:37):
well, and of course it's good.
It's speaking to exactly whatyou're talking about, which is
more of this, like, you know,this pathetic woman, like I just
need my man and everything willbe okay.
Allison Epstein (20:46):
That's not what she is, and I hate that song.
It's a beautiful song, but Ihate that song.
Brett Benner (20:51):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So I have to ask you about JacobFagan, who you've named, has
these visions of his father thatperiodically come up through the
book.
What were those for you?
Allison Epstein (21:01):
To me the ghost of, of Fagin's father is the
past that he's afraid of and thefuture that he can't escape.
So he's kind of being haunted ina sense by what the world thinks
he's going to be.
And that is the one thing Ithink that terrifies him as a
character more than anything.
Is this what I'm going to be?
(21:23):
Am I going to be this futurepast ghost of my father who
couldn't escape this life?
Who wasn't good enough?
Who died before the age of 30?
Is that me?
Is that all I'm good for?
And it's that fear of, I willnever be anything other than
that, that kind of follows himthrough the story, and I, I love
(21:46):
a good ghost story, I felt likeDickens wouldn't mind adding a
little ghost in there, but thesense of being haunted by your
own past and your own futuresimultaneously is where I was,
Brett Benner (21:56):
There are a few things in the book that I don't
know that were intentional thatare almost callbacks to the
original.
Oliver losing his mother when hewas very young and the same
thing happening to Fagin.
There's a, almost a callback toNancy's death, Fagin's vision,
and the haunting that Fagin hasafter Nancy passes, and the
original Bill scene, this kindof same vision.
(22:18):
I don't know if all that wasintentional.
I almost felt like I wasdiscovering this Easter egg.
Allison Epstein (22:22):
It's fun because that happens to me too,
when I go back through it andI'm like, Oh, I didn't realize I
did that.
This is just what happens whenyou read Oliver Twist 17 times
in a year.
Brett Benner (22:31):
Is that how many times did you roughly read it
again as you were going through?
Allison Epstein (22:34):
Oh, I was exaggerating a little, but it
was certainly at least five orsix.
And every single time I put itdown and go.
Jesus, Charles Dickens,positive, yes, I did
Brett Benner (22:48):
find when I was just looking through some
research of this, and I'm sureyou've seen it too.
There was a graphic novel thatwas done called Fagin, the Jew,
which made me burst out laughingfirst of all, because I'm like,
are you really escaping thething that you were trying to
work against when you wrote thisby calling the book that, which
again, I was glad it was like,Alison was much smarter.
Allison Epstein (23:09):
I don't, yeah.
I'm like, okay, we, we do allknow that already.
That's the one thing we know.
Brett Benner (23:15):
Exactly.
You really could have just saidFagin and everybody'd be like,
Oh, I know who that is.
You know what I mean?
So I mean, it's so hilarious.
One of the things I wanted toask you about just
speculatively, I couldn't helpwonder if there were seeds of it
in here without anything beingexplored.
What do you think his sexualityis?
Allison Epstein (23:34):
Oh, yes, that is or how do you perceive it?
I've thought about that one alot.
I think about Fagin as No one'sever asked me this question and
I'm so glad you did because Ihave an entire backstory for
him.
Brett Benner (23:46):
I love this.
He
Allison Epstein (23:47):
is a biromantic asexual in my head and I feel
that very strongly.
Brett Benner (23:52):
Yeah.
Allison Epstein (23:53):
Yeah.
I don't think, I had aconversation with my publisher
about this actually.
They were curious in thebeginning when I was early
drafting, why don't you add aromantic plot line to this book
that could be interesting?
Is that something you've thoughtabout?
And I said immediately, no.
This is, to me, this is anasexual character and it's
important to me to.
honor that.
That's just how he feels to me.
I do think His relationshipsthroughout the book have weird,
(24:16):
messy, romantic changes to them,but he doesn't know how to, how
to comprehend that.
And I think he starts to feelthose feelings and immediately
closes the box on them and says,I do not have time to unpack all
of that right now.
Brett Benner (24:31):
I'm thinking about it specifically because there
were moments, and I think it'smaybe with Nancy, there's a
scene when they go to thetheater, they go to the opera, I
believe.
And just the touching of thehands, just the physical
proximity, I think is somethingthat, piqued up something in me.
So, but I'm actually really gladto hear you assess it the way
you have.
Because.
(24:52):
I think if you said, well, forsure, he's gay, I would have
felt like what we were sayingearlier, it would almost have
felt predatory in a way, but I,but I agree with you.
I think that he wouldn't thosekinds of relationships or
something.
I don't even know what he would,would do in those relationships.
You say something early on.
Which the line stuck out with meso much, I have to, I've marked
(25:14):
it, where he's with all hisoriginal boyhood friends, and,
um, one of the boys, his name isSam, punches him, and it says,
The punch Sam lands on hisshoulder feels better than any
embrace.
And that to me was such acrystallization of who this guy
is.
And like any kind of physicalcontact, I just feel like he
(25:34):
would, um, whatever it is,whether it's a hug or whether
it's a, and, and, and it's a wayof expressing himself that I
think he's completely, uh,uncomfortable.
And like you said, close thebox.
Don't want to really get intoall that.
Allison Epstein (25:47):
Yeah, he wants to be accepted so bad, but he's
so afraid of anybody actuallygetting There's a, there's a
barrier around him that no onecan get inside.
And I think he's created it onpurpose and it's also constantly
driving him away from everybodyaround him.
So, it's a tricky thing.
He's created it for himself, Ithink.
Brett Benner (26:06):
One of the other things, I want to read this
because you say this in yourafterwards, and I thought it was
really beautiful, and it wastalking about, for you, um, kind
of the approach to writing thisnovel.
And it just became a biggerthing to me about writing in
general, but also I, I think itresonates as a reader and as for
readers, you said, I don't knowwhether, as Dickens says, there
(26:28):
are quote, some insensible andcallous natures that do become
utterly and incurably bad.
But if writing fiction is anexercise in imaginative empathy,
I think we at least have to askwhy.
I thought that was so fantasticand that alone, it almost
bookends because it made so muchsense of, of approaching this
(26:49):
and why to approach this.
But also it, again, We all knowthat, reading makes people more
empathetic, which is why it'ssuch a disaster what's happening
again in this country witheverything.
Burn it all down.
But I just think that's such abeautiful sentiment so I just
want to say, I loved that.
Allison Epstein (27:08):
Thank you.
No, I, I really appreciate that.
And it, it was really what wasguiding me through this entire
project.
I don't think of this book as anattempt to redeem Fagin.
I don't think this is making himnecessarily a hero or a positive
character.
I think he's still a dirtbag atthe end of my book and I didn't
want to change that because thatwould not be honest to the
(27:31):
character.
That's not who he is.
This is not a redemption arc forBill Sykes.
This is not a redemption forFagin.
This is asking the question, whoare these people actually?
and what happened in their worldand in their lives to make them
like that.
It doesn't excuse what they do.
It's still, you know, besidesbeing against the law, there are
(27:52):
things in this book that I don'tcondone.
I don't think are good thingsfor a person to do, but I do
think it, you can make sense ofit.
If you ask, how did you gethere?
Why are these the options thatyou have?
And that helps you understandsomebody without having to say,
this person is.
Good and I support them or thisperson is bad and I don't
(28:13):
support them.
You can say this person iscomplicated.
This person is human.
This person has done things thatare bad.
But this is still a person.
Brett Benner (28:20):
Before we, before we go, I do have to ask you on a
completely separate note.
so I know you're a theater fan.
What have you seen that you'veloved lately?
Are you a musical person?
Are you a, you are okay.
Have you seen anything greatlately?
Allison Epstein (28:34):
Uh, the best thing I saw lately was, uh,
Chicago area production ofNatasha Pierre and the great
comet of 1812, which is.
One of my favorite shows of alltime and my biggest regret was
not making it to New York to seeit before it suddenly closed.
So I've been haunting that onefor years and it finally came to
like within 25 minutes of whereI live.
(28:54):
So I, oh, I had the best nightat the theater for that show.
That was fantastic.
Brett Benner (28:59):
You were, you were just through and through a
history person, aren't you?
Allison Epstein (29:03):
Yes, I, I am the worst history nerd your
parents were.
Brett Benner (29:11):
That's hilarious.
Natasha and Pierre, well,there'll always be a good
history, musical.
I'm sure that's going to bethere for you.
It'll be coming up.
Allison Epstein (29:19):
I did a trip actually to New York two years
ago to see the revival of Oliverand the revival of Sweeney Todd.
That was my Victorian dirtbagtheater weekends.
Both of those were great.
Right.
Brett Benner (29:30):
And then you just went into the subway looking for
rats.
Allison Epstein (29:32):
Exactly.
I was like, okay, I don't, Iwill not accept food from any
strangers after these plays.
Brett Benner (29:37):
That's exactly right.
No meat pies, nothing.
Well, this has been wonderful.
If you're watching or listeningto this on February 25th, the
book is out today, so please goget it.
Um, buy Independent if you can,but it's, it's really fantastic.
So congratulations.
And I've been so happy to sitwith you today.
Allison Epstein (29:58):
Thank you so much for having me on.
This was a great conversation.
Hello, everyone, and welcome or welcome back to
(00:02):
another episode of Behind theStack with me, Brett Benner.
I hope you're all doing well.
I was out last night a littlelate.
I went to the Screen Actor GuildAwards last night, My business
partner, Debbie and I got askedto go because of casting
shrinking and the shrinking castwas up for best ensemble last
(00:23):
night.
which unfortunately they didn'twin.
They really should have, but itwas really fun.
Uh, I actually had too much fun.
But I am definitely, uh, payingfor it today.
Anyway, a couple of new bookscoming out, including, uh,
today's guest.
So I just wanted to share someof these titles that sound
(00:45):
particularly interesting to me.
The first one is CurtisSittenfeld's new book show don't
tell, which is a collection ofshort stories, including, one of
them, which is revisiting hercharacters from.
Her book Prep.
Then, The Strange Case of JaneO.
by Karen Thompson Walker.
I actually, uh, I listened tothis one already and really
(01:08):
liked it.
It's really interesting about,two shifty narratives between a,
Psychologist and his patient,who is a young woman who seems
to have these moments in herlife when she disappears and
completely checks out, um, andhas no recollection of what
happens during these times.
(01:28):
So it's, it's really interestingand interesting.
It's intriguing and yeah, it'sgreat.
And then the last book that Iwanted to bring up, it's called
The Boyhood of Cain by MichaelAmherst, which I read and I
really liked this.
It's about a young, sensitive,Boy whose father loses his job
and so the family moves to thecountryside and in the English
(01:51):
countryside, he starts at a newschool and there's another new
student who comes in as well.
And they kind of forge afriendship and begin to take.
Classes with an art teacher andwhat happens.
It's beautifully written.
It's not a very long novel, butit's really great.
and as I was saying earlier, ourguest today, her book also comes
(02:14):
out today, she that I'mreferring to is Alison Epstein
and the book is Fagin the Thief.
a little bit about Alison.
She earned her MFA in fictionfrom Northwestern University and
a BA in creative writing fromthe University of Michigan.
A Michigan native, she now livesin Chicago where she enjoys good
theater, bad puns, and fancyjackets.
(02:37):
She's the author of historicalnovels including A Tip for the
Hangman, Let Dead Bury the Dead,and now Feg and the Thief.
So, enjoy this episode of Behindthe Stack.
You
Good morning.
Allison Epstein (02:56):
Good morning.
How are you?
Brett Benner (02:58):
I'm good.
So first I just want to say yourbook, I loved it so much.
I just think it's excellent.
So I was really excited to sitdown with you today.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Allison Epstein (03:08):
Thanks for having me on.
I'm really excited about it.
Brett Benner (03:10):
so, for our, our listeners, our viewers, do you
have an elevator pitch for thebook?
Allison Epstein (03:14):
My elevator pitch for the book is very much
the title of the book, which isnice.
It kind of sells itself in thatway.
But, um, Fagin the Thief is theretelling of Dickens Oliver
Twist from the point of view ofthe notorious villain Fagin.
So it is very much what it sayson the tin and I love that about
it.
Brett Benner (03:33):
It does all the work for you.
It
Allison Epstein (03:35):
really does.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (03:38):
Okay.
So like this whole idea of, ofcharacters from another story,
you know, we've seen this a lotwith like, Louis Bayer did it
with Tiny Tim and Mr.
Timothy.
Dan Simmons did it with EdwinDrood.
Um, obviously the big ones rightnow are, um, because it's all in
the zeitgeist, is, is the WickedWitch, Gregory Maguire's Wicked.
And, and of course mostrecently, James by Percival
Everett, which, which, you know,Everett had said, this is not a
(04:00):
reimagining really, but acharacter who's getting their
due.
Was that in many ways what youfelt about Fagin when you
started writing this?
Allison Epstein (04:08):
Yes and no, I think there's a lot of, my
approach to this at first wasfrustration with the way that
Dickens had originally writtenFagin, which is, I mean, he's
one of the most famous antiSemitic stereotypes in English
literature.
I think the only one he'sfighting for that title is
Shylock.
So when you think of theterrible Jew in literature,
you're like, Oh yeah, Fagin, thenasty old Jew.
(04:29):
Of course, that's frustrating asa, as a reader, but part of the
reason why I wanted to work withFagin is because I do sort of
love him as a character, eventhough he is, I mean, terribly
offensive and two dimensional inthe original, there's also still
something in him that attractedme to him as a character, that I
(04:51):
have been trying, I've beenthinking about this now for
years, like, why am I weirdly inlove with this anti semitic
caricature that's directlytrying to make fun of me.
But there's something in whatDickens started to do that's so
interesting with Fagin.
He started creating a characterthat I find really fascinating
and then he just said, and alsohe's Jewish and he's the villain
(05:12):
and I'm done now.
And it was, it was sort ofgiving a character their due in
that all the raw materials arethere for something really
interesting.
I just wanted someone to do it.
And if no one was going to doit, then I would do it myself.
Brett Benner (05:25):
Yeah, because that was my, that was my question.
It's like, you know, what ledyou to do this initially?
So, so how long were this kindof germinating for you?
Allison Epstein (05:34):
Um, there are two answers to that and one of
them is I've been working on thebook for about four years.
I think this has beengerminating for me since I was
like seven years old, probably.
Brett Benner (05:44):
Wow.
Allison Epstein (05:45):
I first encountered Fagin in, I think a
lot of us do, in the musicaladaptation, Oliver! I was a
theater kid from a theaterfamily and stuff.
So I like, saw a production ofOliver as a touring company when
I was six or seven years old.
And Fagin's the best characterin that show, hands down,
there's no question.
His songs are the best, he'slike, comic relief, but also
(06:08):
kind of threatening, which isthe best way to have a stage
character.
And so from then on, I wasreally in love with that
incarnation of the character.
And as I got older and, youknow, wanted to read the source
material for what was behindthat, I picked up the book when
I was probably 12 or 13 and it'sa very different experience than
that stage show.
So reconciling those two thingswas quite a, quite a situation.
Brett Benner (06:32):
Yeah, first of all, there's so many great
things that you talk about inthe afterwards, which I'm going
to be Pulling from some of that.
And it's such a funny thing tosay, like, there will be no
spoilers, but for anybody whoknows anything about the source
material, it's kind of like,okay, it's a done deal.
However, you know, you talkedabout the, the, the version that
you are working from orconsulting said the word Jew
(06:53):
appears 326 times in the 1867version, which is.
Absurd.
I can't imagine reading that assomeone who was Jewish and that
completely coming at me the sameway that I couldn't imagine kind
of a derogatory term for,homosexuality and reading it
that much in a thing.
So that had to be off putting tosay the least.
Allison Epstein (07:12):
It, it was off putting.
At a certain point, you justdon't hear it anymore when
you're reading the book.
I just, my eyes just glaze overit at a certain point.
I mean, it's 300 and.
whatever times it is.
At a certain point, there's somuch anti Semitism in classic
literature that if you're goingto study books from the 17, 18,
1900s, I just like, it became agame to me in college.
(07:34):
I was like, Oh, I wonder howmany pages we're going to get
until they say something weirdabout the Jews.
Brett Benner (07:38):
It's like a drinking game.
Allison Epstein (07:40):
It is.
The best one is, uh, DavidCopperfield, which made it, that
book is like 1200 pages long andDickens made it 1150 pages
before saying something weirdabout the Jews.
Dang it, Dickens! You were soclose!
Brett Benner (07:52):
Okay, I have no idea to the answer to this, so
maybe you could speak to it.
Was he anti Semitic?
Allison Epstein (07:57):
I mean, that's always a tricky question when
you're talking about somebodyfrom the past.
Because our standards for Imean, even today, how, how do
you define anti Semitism is awhole conversation that we can
have on, I think, probably anentirely different podcast, but,
um, Dickens relationship toJudaism is actually really
interesting.
(08:17):
And I talk about this a littlebit in the afterward of the book
because I don't think herealized while he was writing
Oliver Twist.
that he was really leaning intothis common stereotype at the
time of the wicked miserly childsnatching Jew.
I think he probably knewsubconsciously, but it took a
Jewish reader writing him aletter to say, did you know what
(08:40):
you did with this character?
Do you know how hurtful thiswas?
And that, that reader wrote himthe letter and it took him
probably five, six, 10 years tosit with that.
But eventually he did.
write another Jewish characterin a later book, Our Mutual
Friend, which is often read tobe his apology for doing such a
terrible job with Sagan, and hewrites this.
(09:00):
nice, kind Jewish man who comesin to save the day.
So I think he was, he waswilling to hear that his
representation was harmful.
We can talk all day aboutwhether Our Mutual Friend is a
good book or not.
Again, that's not the point ofthis conversation.
Brett Benner (09:16):
and by the way, I think that's the one Dickens
book.
I mean like, hello, who evenread it?
Except for people who are, uh,you know, completists or,
scholarly but that's the, I'mlike mutual friend, but yeah, I
wonder if it's for him or it'skind of like today you'd say,
you know, he's the, he's thattypical person who'd be
protesting.
Well, you know, some of my bestfriends are Jewish, so, you
know,
Allison Epstein (09:37):
they're so nice.
Brett Benner (09:38):
Yes, exactly.
One of the things I love aboutthe book so much, and it's the
obvious thing we've alreadytalked about, but the way that
you've turned so much of this onits head in terms of all of
these characters and the way weview them.
And Fagin, he really does becomeincredibly sympathetic.
(09:58):
And, you really feel for him.
for all of them, except maybeBill Sykes, but even Bill has
his moments I wanted to talk alittle bit about the
relationship between Bill andFagin, um, and, and your
exploration of that.
because I think it'sfascinating, to see that with
these, these two men, Fagan ifnot for his, uh, kind of
(10:18):
financial standing and the factthat he lives like he does would
probably be this, you know,almost as proper gentleman.
Right.
And he's, he's very kind of, uh,I don't want to say affected,
but he's, he's much more kind ofproper.
Yes.
But, you know, and, and Bill iscompletely tempestuous,
completely no impulse control.
Allison Epstein (10:37):
Yeah, their relationship is one of my
favorite things about this book.
And I will say, I am, I'm a BillSykes apologist in this book.
He's a problem, but he's myproblem.
Brett Benner (10:47):
It's very fun.
He's such a bad boy.
He's such the guy that so manywomen and men would be like, Oh
my god, I get it.
Allison Epstein (10:54):
Yeah, like, okay, there we go.
Yeah, but you're absolutelyright.
They are, they're opposites inso many ways, but they're so
tangled up in each other in thisstory.
And I was starting to see partsof that in the original text as
well.
I mean, they've, in, in theDickens novel, they've been
together, you can tell, foryears and years and years, and
obviously there's somethingkeeping them together.
(11:17):
They, they are kind of alwayssniping at each other's throats,
but they wouldn't still beworking together if it wasn't
useful in some way.
And so what I wanted to find outwhen I was exploring both of
those characters is, okay, Iknow where they end up, where
did they start, what made themwant to have a partnership in
the first place, and what aboutthat partnership was good in
(11:39):
some way enough to have themstick together through all of
these terrible things that wethen see happen later on.
There's sort of like, it's not afather son relationship between
them, it's way too messed up tobe that, but there, it's not not
that either, there's a sensethat Fagin feels this sense of
responsibility to kind of guideBill away from what he sees Bill
(12:03):
as capable of becoming andwhether that's because he thinks
he can, he can fix him, he cansave him, or if it's You know,
that's a path that I could havebeen on myself and I don't want
to be there.
There's a lot of projectiongoing on in their relationship
for, for sure, but there'ssomething there that just is so
interesting to
Brett Benner (12:22):
me.
Yeah.
No, it's, it's, is it, you know,father son or, you know, it's,
it's, it, they're, they'redefinitely the, uh, The odd
couple, going back to, to Faginas a, as a young boy and, and
your kind of imagining of thisis his relationship with his
mother, Leah, and they're kindof the world to each other.
And I loved this relationship aswell.
(12:44):
You talk about Fagin's fatherwas, was a thief as well,
correct?
And who was caught and, and wasput, to death.
It just made me start to thinkthat here you have this son who
ends up in the same exactprofession his father did.
do you think we ever escape ourorigins?
Allison Epstein (13:02):
I think the more we try to, the less we do.
I mean, this whole book is bigand trying not to become his
father.
And by God, by the end of this,every single step that he's
taken has taken him in thatdirection to become the one
thing he didn't necessarily wantto be.
I think we're We're absolutelyshaped by where we come from,
but I think the other thing inthis book that was interesting
(13:22):
to me is we're shaped by whopeople think we're going to be.
I don't know what else Faginreally could have become other
than what his father was in thisbook.
He wasn't really given a path tobe anything other than a father.
The thief that everybody alreadythought he was, the criminal
they thought he was.
What, was he going to go and geta job and become a medical
(13:42):
doctor and set up practice?
Absolutely not.
It's not going to happen.
Brett Benner (13:45):
And when you also look at his, where he's growing
up and his background and hefalls in with this group of, of
young boys, It made me think ofso many neighborhoods and so
many young people who aregrowing up and do you ever
escape that life and what it isand how do you step up and out
of it.
It draws so many parallels with,things now.
(14:07):
And that's what I felt about alot of the book it feels very
much of the time while alsofeeling very contemporary, one
of those.
Other things in terms ofparallels is this whole idea.
And I talk about this a lot inthose podcasts, which is the
idea of found family.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthis too?
Because in terms of in thisworld and what Fagin creates, in
(14:27):
the original Fagin is lookingfor boys to pluck off the street
to help him.
And in this, all of them come tohim.
He Is known and has areputation, but all of these
young boys show up on hisdoorstep.
Allison Epstein (14:40):
Yeah, it's funny.
I hadn't thought about it asfound family until my publisher
described it as a found familystory.
And then I was like, Oh, ohgosh, it is.
I didn't, I didn't realize, butyeah.
And I think that's part of theenergy of the original Oliver
Twist that I think drawn, drewme into it.
It's that sense of none of theseboys have anywhere else to go,
but they have this and they havethis sort of, joy is the wrong
(15:01):
word, but there's joy in it thatthey, they make for each other.
And I think a lot of adaptationsplay up the found family and the
joy and the delight of thesekids kind of making their way in
the world.
And they, they play down the,the social realism that Dickens
was leading into.
But I do think there's, there'sroom for, for both of those.
There can be something weirdlybeautiful in we're making a
(15:23):
group of ourselves against theworld even though the world
doesn't want us here.
It was important to me to thinkabout how Fagin's found family
comes to him.
And it was a deliberate choiceto have him not be, you know,
prowling through the streetslooking for kids.
Not only is that, like, creepy.
Yes! Like, it's really hard tomake your character even
(15:44):
remotely sympathetic if that'shappening.
But, it was also, like,interesting to me to have that.
Because For two reasons.
One, that is something thathappens in these times.
There were professional thieftrainers who were like really
great in the profession and thenonce they got older or wanted to
kind of transition out of thatwork, they would then kind of
(16:05):
set up shop and people couldcome and learn the trade from
them, which I just loved as acareer move.
Brett Benner (16:10):
So.
And everything down to like whothey, who they take their items
to, to resell them, all of that,they have a whole network and,
and as you say in the, in thestory, it's effectively what was
done to him, you know, with thischaracter who takes him under
his wing and kind of teaches himhow to do this.
So it is kind of, weirdly, uh,passing on kind of an expertise
(16:32):
or a job skill as it were, evenif it's illegal.
Allison Epstein (16:36):
It is, but it's also how can I pass this on in
the way that it wasn't given tome?
Can I do this better than how Iwas left?
Can I set up these kids betterthan they set me up to succeed?
Brett Benner (16:45):
You have some changes, the book kind of
follows its own line and thencomes into the track of the
Oliver's story that many peopleknow.
Um, did some of those thingsreveal themselves to you as you
went through and thought, okay,well, I would like to do this,
or, did you kind of break it alldown in terms of an outline and
knew exactly where everybody wasgoing to be headed?
Allison Epstein (17:04):
Um, I knew.
three quarters of where I washeaded.
The last, quarter of the bookdid kind of surprise me in the
drafting of it.
I knew what I didn't want tohappen.
I knew I wasn't exactly marriedto the ending of Oliver Twist,
but I sort of needed to work myway through, okay, well then how
does it end?
But I did have a sense of whereI wanted to intersect with the
(17:24):
original book and what parts ofthe original book I wasn't
particularly interested inincluding in the story.
There's a whole subplot thatevery single time I read it in
Oliver Twist, I'm just turningpages like, can we get back to
the stuff that I care about?
So I left that one out for, forthe obvious reasons, the whole
like rich grandfather of Oliver.
I don't, I don't know anybodywho's like, that's my favorite
(17:45):
part of that book.
Brett Benner (17:46):
I love that Oliver is almost an afterthought.
I mean, we see him, but it's,it's, it's, you know, it's
almost like in billing, it wouldsay special appearance by
Oliver.
Exactly.
Yeah.
This is another thing, atestament to your writing and to
the book itself is I foundmyself furiously getting through
the last 40 pages like it was athriller, despite the fact, you
(18:07):
know how this ends.
And that's why I love what youdid, because it's not exactly
the same thing.
And to be honest, I like yourversion better.
And speaking of characterswhere, you know, it's going to
end and I loved so much isNancy.
I, I loved her.
I loved her.
Like I don't always, I'm acasting director.
I don't always read books andthink, God, who could I see for
(18:29):
this role?
But it was just going through myhead.
I've thought so many greatactresses that would tear this
thing up, but.
I just fell in love with her.
I loved her relationship withFagin, and of course, her very
complicated relationship withBill.
Allison Epstein (18:44):
Yeah, she's great.
She's a trip.
Thank you.
I love her.
And she was honestly, she wasone of the other characters I
wanted to have to give her herdue in Percival Everett's terms.
I think very often she's, she'sflattened out of what is
recognizable to me as, you know,as a woman in a relationship
that is.
(19:05):
slowly killing you by inches.
That is, I think, something thatDickens wanted to express in a
way that felt true to him, butit never rings true to me when I
read her in that book.
It's so much more complicatedand messy and beautiful than
what he shows us, which is just,she'll follow him to the ends of
the earth for, for no reason.
(19:27):
And I worked through this a lotwith my editor, actually,
because it was really importantto me to show at some point.
Bill and Nancy's relationshipwas good.
It had to be.
She wouldn't stay with him if itwasn't, at one point, there was
something there that she wasgetting from him that was
valuable and worth it to her.
And I think that's the realtragedy of, of her, is that you
(19:49):
can see when we meet her, you,you should not be in this, but
she can't see it because it usedto be something else.
And that's what she's lookingat.
Brett Benner (19:58):
Well, and I think you make a very, there is a
moment in the book and I won't,you know, obviously not gonna
give anything away, but there'sa very distinct turning point
when The pieces on thechessboard for perceptibly all
of them.
And because I do think that shehas a way with Bill in terms of
tempering him and bringing outsomething in him that before her
(20:21):
that we haven't seen.
And that's what's, so beautifuland also so heartbreaking about
the whole thing.
And I have to be completelyhonest with you.
Like so many, so many times asI'm reading through sections,
all I could hear is that stupidsong.
As long as he needs me, which of
Allison Epstein (20:36):
course,
Brett Benner (20:37):
well, and of course it's good.
It's speaking to exactly whatyou're talking about, which is
more of this, like, you know,this pathetic woman, like I just
need my man and everything willbe okay.
Allison Epstein (20:46):
That's not what she is, and I hate that song.
It's a beautiful song, but Ihate that song.
Brett Benner (20:51):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So I have to ask you about JacobFagan, who you've named, has
these visions of his father thatperiodically come up through the
book.
What were those for you?
Allison Epstein (21:01):
To me the ghost of, of Fagin's father is the
past that he's afraid of and thefuture that he can't escape.
So he's kind of being haunted ina sense by what the world thinks
he's going to be.
And that is the one thing Ithink that terrifies him as a
character more than anything.
Is this what I'm going to be?
(21:23):
Am I going to be this futurepast ghost of my father who
couldn't escape this life?
Who wasn't good enough?
Who died before the age of 30?
Is that me?
Is that all I'm good for?
And it's that fear of, I willnever be anything other than
that, that kind of follows himthrough the story, and I, I love
(21:46):
a good ghost story, I felt likeDickens wouldn't mind adding a
little ghost in there, but thesense of being haunted by your
own past and your own futuresimultaneously is where I was,
Brett Benner (21:56):
There are a few things in the book that I don't
know that were intentional thatare almost callbacks to the
original.
Oliver losing his mother when hewas very young and the same
thing happening to Fagin.
There's a, almost a callback toNancy's death, Fagin's vision,
and the haunting that Fagin hasafter Nancy passes, and the
original Bill scene, this kindof same vision.
(22:18):
I don't know if all that wasintentional.
I almost felt like I wasdiscovering this Easter egg.
Allison Epstein (22:22):
It's fun because that happens to me too,
when I go back through it andI'm like, Oh, I didn't realize I
did that.
This is just what happens whenyou read Oliver Twist 17 times
in a year.
Brett Benner (22:31):
Is that how many times did you roughly read it
again as you were going through?
Allison Epstein (22:34):
Oh, I was exaggerating a little, but it
was certainly at least five orsix.
And every single time I put itdown and go.
Jesus, Charles Dickens,positive, yes, I did
Brett Benner (22:48):
find when I was just looking through some
research of this, and I'm sureyou've seen it too.
There was a graphic novel thatwas done called Fagin, the Jew,
which made me burst out laughingfirst of all, because I'm like,
are you really escaping thething that you were trying to
work against when you wrote thisby calling the book that, which
again, I was glad it was like,Alison was much smarter.
Allison Epstein (23:09):
I don't, yeah.
I'm like, okay, we, we do allknow that already.
That's the one thing we know.
Brett Benner (23:15):
Exactly.
You really could have just saidFagin and everybody'd be like,
Oh, I know who that is.
You know what I mean?
So I mean, it's so hilarious.
One of the things I wanted toask you about just
speculatively, I couldn't helpwonder if there were seeds of it
in here without anything beingexplored.
What do you think his sexualityis?
Allison Epstein (23:34):
Oh, yes, that is or how do you perceive it?
I've thought about that one alot.
I think about Fagin as No one'sever asked me this question and
I'm so glad you did because Ihave an entire backstory for
him.
Brett Benner (23:46):
I love this.
He
Allison Epstein (23:47):
is a biromantic asexual in my head and I feel
that very strongly.
Brett Benner (23:52):
Yeah.
Allison Epstein (23:53):
Yeah.
I don't think, I had aconversation with my publisher
about this actually.
They were curious in thebeginning when I was early
drafting, why don't you add aromantic plot line to this book
that could be interesting?
Is that something you've thoughtabout?
And I said immediately, no.
This is, to me, this is anasexual character and it's
important to me to.
honor that.
That's just how he feels to me.
I do think His relationshipsthroughout the book have weird,
(24:16):
messy, romantic changes to them,but he doesn't know how to, how
to comprehend that.
And I think he starts to feelthose feelings and immediately
closes the box on them and says,I do not have time to unpack all
of that right now.
Brett Benner (24:31):
I'm thinking about it specifically because there
were moments, and I think it'smaybe with Nancy, there's a
scene when they go to thetheater, they go to the opera, I
believe.
And just the touching of thehands, just the physical
proximity, I think is somethingthat, piqued up something in me.
So, but I'm actually really gladto hear you assess it the way
you have.
Because.
(24:52):
I think if you said, well, forsure, he's gay, I would have
felt like what we were sayingearlier, it would almost have
felt predatory in a way, but I,but I agree with you.
I think that he wouldn't thosekinds of relationships or
something.
I don't even know what he would,would do in those relationships.
You say something early on.
Which the line stuck out with meso much, I have to, I've marked
(25:14):
it, where he's with all hisoriginal boyhood friends, and,
um, one of the boys, his name isSam, punches him, and it says,
The punch Sam lands on hisshoulder feels better than any
embrace.
And that to me was such acrystallization of who this guy
is.
And like any kind of physicalcontact, I just feel like he
(25:34):
would, um, whatever it is,whether it's a hug or whether
it's a, and, and, and it's a wayof expressing himself that I
think he's completely, uh,uncomfortable.
And like you said, close thebox.
Don't want to really get intoall that.
Allison Epstein (25:47):
Yeah, he wants to be accepted so bad, but he's
so afraid of anybody actuallygetting There's a, there's a
barrier around him that no onecan get inside.
And I think he's created it onpurpose and it's also constantly
driving him away from everybodyaround him.
So, it's a tricky thing.
He's created it for himself, Ithink.
Brett Benner (26:06):
One of the other things, I want to read this
because you say this in yourafterwards, and I thought it was
really beautiful, and it wastalking about, for you, um, kind
of the approach to writing thisnovel.
And it just became a biggerthing to me about writing in
general, but also I, I think itresonates as a reader and as for
readers, you said, I don't knowwhether, as Dickens says, there
(26:28):
are quote, some insensible andcallous natures that do become
utterly and incurably bad.
But if writing fiction is anexercise in imaginative empathy,
I think we at least have to askwhy.
I thought that was so fantasticand that alone, it almost
bookends because it made so muchsense of, of approaching this
(26:49):
and why to approach this.
But also it, again, We all knowthat, reading makes people more
empathetic, which is why it'ssuch a disaster what's happening
again in this country witheverything.
Burn it all down.
But I just think that's such abeautiful sentiment so I just
want to say, I loved that.
Allison Epstein (27:08):
Thank you.
No, I, I really appreciate that.
And it, it was really what wasguiding me through this entire
project.
I don't think of this book as anattempt to redeem Fagin.
I don't think this is making himnecessarily a hero or a positive
character.
I think he's still a dirtbag atthe end of my book and I didn't
want to change that because thatwould not be honest to the
(27:31):
character.
That's not who he is.
This is not a redemption arc forBill Sykes.
This is not a redemption forFagin.
This is asking the question, whoare these people actually?
and what happened in their worldand in their lives to make them
like that.
It doesn't excuse what they do.
It's still, you know, besidesbeing against the law, there are
(27:52):
things in this book that I don'tcondone.
I don't think are good thingsfor a person to do, but I do
think it, you can make sense ofit.
If you ask, how did you gethere?
Why are these the options thatyou have?
And that helps you understandsomebody without having to say,
this person is.
Good and I support them or thisperson is bad and I don't
(28:13):
support them.
You can say this person iscomplicated.
This person is human.
This person has done things thatare bad.
But this is still a person.
Brett Benner (28:20):
Before we, before we go, I do have to ask you on a
completely separate note.
so I know you're a theater fan.
What have you seen that you'veloved lately?
Are you a musical person?
Are you a, you are okay.
Have you seen anything greatlately?
Allison Epstein (28:34):
Uh, the best thing I saw lately was, uh,
Chicago area production ofNatasha Pierre and the great
comet of 1812, which is.
One of my favorite shows of alltime and my biggest regret was
not making it to New York to seeit before it suddenly closed.
So I've been haunting that onefor years and it finally came to
like within 25 minutes of whereI live.
(28:54):
So I, oh, I had the best nightat the theater for that show.
That was fantastic.
Brett Benner (28:59):
You were, you were just through and through a
history person, aren't you?
Allison Epstein (29:03):
Yes, I, I am the worst history nerd your
parents were.
Brett Benner (29:11):
That's hilarious.
Natasha and Pierre, well,there'll always be a good
history, musical.
I'm sure that's going to bethere for you.
It'll be coming up.
Allison Epstein (29:19):
I did a trip actually to New York two years
ago to see the revival of Oliverand the revival of Sweeney Todd.
That was my Victorian dirtbagtheater weekends.
Both of those were great.
Right.
Brett Benner (29:30):
And then you just went into the subway looking for
rats.
Allison Epstein (29:32):
Exactly.
I was like, okay, I don't, Iwill not accept food from any
strangers after these plays.
Brett Benner (29:37):
That's exactly right.
No meat pies, nothing.
Well, this has been wonderful.
If you're watching or listeningto this on February 25th, the
book is out today, so please goget it.
Um, buy Independent if you can,but it's, it's really fantastic.
So congratulations.
And I've been so happy to sitwith you today.
Allison Epstein (29:58):
Thank you so much for having me on.
This was a great conversation.
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