November 11, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with author Brian Schaefer to discuss his debut novel 'Town & Country'. They delve into his dance history and how that transitioned into writing, what inspired the story, removing outside political influences while writing about politics, and perhaps a favorite musical or two.
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https://www.brian-schaefer.com/about
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https://www.instagram.com/itsbrianschaefer/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hello and welcome or welcome back to another
episode of Behind the Stack,where today I am sitting down
with debut author Brian Schaeferfor his book Town and Country.
Brian is a really interestingguy.
His work has appeared in the NewYork Times, the New Yorker, New
York Magazine, tablet magazine,the Philadelphian Choir Out
(00:23):
Magazine, dance Magazine, theJerusalem Post, the Daily Beast.
The Forward and Moment Magazinefrom 2013 to 2025, Brian
co-wrote the weekly DanceListings for the New York Times
since 2015, he has been ascholar in residence at the
Jacobs Pillow Dance Festival inBeckett, Massachusetts, which is
(00:44):
America's longest runninginternational dance festival.
Brian was a finalist for the2012 Livington Award for young
journalists in the internationalreporting category for his
exploration of the history andpolitics of Israel's lesbian,
gay, bisexual, and transgendercommunity.
In 2007, Brian received aNational Endowment for the Arts
Fellowship in Arts Journalismfor Dance Criticism.
(01:06):
He was a board member of theDance Critic Association from
2011 to 2014 and a US StateDepartment Arts Ambassador in
2020.
Brian holds bachelor degrees incommunication and dance from the
University of California, SanDiego, and a Master's in
Literature creative writing fromBar Lawn University.
(01:27):
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
I am thrilled to be sitting downtoday with Brian Schafer for his
debut novel Town and Country,which is just so good.
I, I just loved it.
As I was saying to you, it, ithit a lot of spots with me in
(01:48):
particular, but I think it willfor a lot of people.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Brian Schaeffer (01:52):
My pleasure.
I'm so excited to, to be inconversation.
I'm such a fan of the podcast.
Brett Benner (01:56):
Oh my God.
Thank you so much.
So I wanted to go back just alittle bit'cause I'm so curious
in the history of Brian.
So you have your bachelor'sdegree in communication and
dance from the University ofCalifornia, San Diego and a
Master's in Literature inCreative Writing from, is it
Bar, lawn or Bar?
Lawn, university Bar, lawn Lon.
Yeah.
Um, so.
(02:17):
You were a
Brian Schaeffer (02:17):
dancer?
Yeah, I was a dancer for, forbasically the duration of my
college career.
And then a little bit afterwardsin San Diego.
I kind of really stumbled intoit.
I had always loved musicaltheater.
I grew up in a home where bothmy parents are big musical
theater fans, and so more thananything we were listening to
(02:40):
cast recordings and so we didthe high school musicals and
really enjoyed those.
Not much of an actor, not muchof a singer, but the dancing I
could pick up really quickly andreally enjoyed it.
And it came naturally.
And so it would always kind ofthrow me to the front, of the
stage for the dance sequences.
(03:00):
And, and so I enjoyed that.
And then when I got to, to SanDiego.
I had no idea what I wanted tostudy.
I went in as generalcommunication with no real
understanding of where thatwould lead.
But, a few friends of mine in myfreshman dorm said, Hey, they
have these fun hip hop danceclasses at the recreation
department.
Let's go do those together.
(03:22):
And so we did, and we, you know,and I loved it, loved picking up
the choreography.
The teacher again would kind oflike grab a few of us to be the
examples.
Then another friend of minesaid, well, you know, if you
take your dance classes throughthe dance department, then
they're free and you get credit.
And so I was like, okay, so I'llstart doing that.
(03:43):
So I started doing hip hopclasses, a little bit of modern,
and then the teacher see a tallguy and they basically grab you
and throw you on stage.
And within a year I wasperforming in the student dance
depart, like the departmentshowcase.
And so, and, and I was lovingit.
And so continue to take theseregular dance classes and once
(04:04):
you do modern dance and theysay, well, you know, you should
really take ballet to, you know,to enhance your technique.
So all of a sudden I'm takingmodern and ballet and hip hop
and jazz and more and more I'mtaking all these classes through
the dance departmentsimultaneously.
I'm on the crew team my firstyear.
So it was a bit of a wow,physically exhausting,,
(04:25):
physically exhausting year.
But I really loved the dance andwhen I studied abroad in
Copenhagen, I kind of immersedmyself in the, in the dancing
there and went to everythingthat the Royal Danish Ballet did
and fell in love with the artform.
And so I came back to San Diegoand said, okay, I really want to
pursue this.
(04:45):
And so I added a second majorand stayed a fifth year.
And did all of the history andthe criticism classes to, to
round out the major.
And it was actually like thecriticism classes that I most
fell in love with.
And so that's when I startedwriting about dance.
Brett Benner (05:00):
Mm-hmm.
Brian Schaeffer (05:01):
And, uh, and I had a professor who, when I
graduated, she said, you know,you're, you're improving as a
dancer and if you wanna pursuethat, you'll find a, a place for
yourself in the, you know, inthe dance field.
But dance needs writers and Ithink maybe that could be your
contribution.
And it was the first time that Ireally.
I thought about that as anoption, and so I, while I
(05:21):
continued to kind of perform fora few projects here and there in
San Diego, it's when I reallystarted pursuing writing about
dance and then contributing alittle bit to, I started a
personal blog and contributingto small local outlets and
that's kind of what led to, wow.
I guess kinda the first inklingof of dance, of dance
journalism.
Brett Benner (05:42):
Wow.
Are, are you still a scholar inresidence at Jacob's Pillow?
Brian Schaeffer (05:46):
I didn't do it this summer, but I had for the
previous, I
Brett Benner (05:50):
think
Brian Schaeffer (05:51):
nine or 10 summers.
Uh, so I've been doing it for awhile.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (05:55):
Can you just for our listeners and I viewers
explain, for people who don'tknow what Jacob's Pillow is.
Brian Schaeffer (06:01):
Yeah.
Jacobs Pillow is the oldestdance festival in the United
States.
It's in Beckett, Massachusetts.
It's this beautiful rural dancecampus where the theaters are
these beautiful old barns.
It's just a really specialplace.
There's farmhouse all over.
And since the 19, I guess it wasthe, it would been in the
(06:22):
thirties.
Um, forgive me for not knowingthe established year, but, but
Ted Sean, who was a seminalfigure in American modern dance,
founded it and started bringingall these international dance
figures.
And so it's been, has a summerfestival since and 10 weeks
every summer.
And so I've been going, they'veput me up in, an adorable little
(06:43):
farmhouse.
They assigned me to variouscompanies and then it's my
responsibility to write theprogram notes, to give pre-show
lectures to moderate post-showconversations.
And it's basically they have anincredible archive.
And it's just a mecca for dancehistory.
And it's part of the kind ofwhole Berkshires corridor, so
it's not far from Tanglewoodwith the music and the
(07:04):
Williamstown Theater Festival.
Yeah.
And, it's really a specialplace.
Brett Benner (07:07):
Now, did you grow up in California or did you grow
up in near New York?
No, I grew up in Pasadena,
Brian Schaeffer (07:12):
California.
Brett Benner (07:13):
In Pasadena.
Oh, okay.
Brian Schaeffer (07:15):
Yeah.
So I am, you're born and bred,Southern California.
Yeah, born and bred.
Grew up in Pasadena.
Went to school in San Diego, andso basically was based in
California until I was almost30.
Brett Benner (07:27):
I only thought of that because of your, you talk
when you talk about yourparents, um, and the whole
musical theater thing and takingyou to see musicals, and so I
immediately assume, oh, wellthey're in New York and, you
know, it's like a weekend thing.
That's so that's, that's a,that's amazing.
Brian Schaeffer (07:40):
No, my dad's accounting firm was responsible
for the accounting of the musictheater of Southern California.
Former, the San Gabriel CivicLight Opera, and that was my
introduction to Musicalfavorite.
Brett Benner (07:51):
And you saw every single tour that came through?
I saw it
Brian Schaeffer (07:53):
every, and I saw every tour that came
through, yes.
Brett Benner (07:57):
Okay.
I ha I just have to ask you, isit a version?
Like what are your favoritesMusicals?
My favorite
Brian Schaeffer (08:01):
musicals.
Oh my goodness.
Well.
I would say probably my topmusical is cabaret.
I am obsessed with it.
And, and that also kind offigures into literature a bit
because Christopher Isherwood ismy favorite Yeah.
Writer.
And and of course goodbye toBerlin.
His collection of of stories,um, is the foundation for
(08:23):
cabaret, but I also think it'sjust such a powerful just.
Chilling and thrilling musicaland all the different
productions,, kind of alwaysgive me something new and
different and, and I just findit kind of the, such like a, an
a stunning example of what liketheater can do and be.
(08:43):
So that one is Top Rent is, hasbeen such a seminal musical for
me.
My, when it came throughSouthern California, I remember
my mom took my brothers and Iout of school one day.
It was I think our Hanukkahgift.
One year she took us out ofschool to go see a, a matinee of
rent at, the Almonds andTheater.
And we were, we were in highschool.
(09:05):
And, and seeing that and seeingthose stories portrayed on
stage.
I mean, that was also, I hadn'tcome out yet and, but had a
sense that watching that showwas the first time that I had a
sense both of, I think these aremy people.
I think that's my community, andnot just because of it's.
You know, it's celebrateddepiction of the queer
(09:26):
characters, but also theartists, people who yeah.
Um, had really dedicated theirlives to, kind of sharing their
work, sharing their stories,creating this community.
I really, really responded tothat.
I think before I was able tounderstand why.
And then of course, there's songtime I'm obsessed with Into the
Woods.
Between that and Twe, uh,Sweeney Todd, probably hard to
choose like, which, which ofthem is my favorite song times.
(09:48):
But yeah.
But those would probably be topthree.
Brett Benner (09:52):
Wow.
See, Sunday would be mine ofthe, of the Sunday ones.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sunday was my favorite.
I also wonder, I was justthinking when you were talking
about rent and thinking, likethis is when you were, hadn't
come out yet.
I thought, I wonder if it wasalso like your mother's like,
well maybe this will pushsomething along.
Brian Schaeffer (10:06):
Yeah.
It's funny, when I came, when Idid ultimately come out to my
parents, they, she said that shehadn't necessarily, suspected,,
but the fact that she took us tothat show I think was.
One of the many kind of signalsthat I had from them that it was
gonna be fine's.
Great.
The, the fact that, you know,that she was able to share that
(10:27):
story with us and and that wewere able to kind of enjoy it
together and to talk about, youknow, the story, the characters,
the lives.
And that there was no kind ofdiscomfort there from, from my
parents' perspective.
I think was one of the thingsthat kind of allowed me to, not
that it, not that coming outdidn't have its fears and
anxieties, but, but it was thosekind of shows of, I think,
(10:49):
unconscious on their part, butreally, really significant in
the way that it created a, anunderstanding for me that, that
I would be fine and acceptedand, and still supported and
loved.
Sure.
Brett Benner (11:00):
Which is amazing.
Did you ever think when youstarted writing, I'm so curious
to write a story that involveddance?
Brian Schaeffer (11:11):
Yes, I, I have long thought about it.
I still would like to, I'm notsure.
I'm not sure yet what that storywould be and what I would want
it to do.
But I think, I think it's ripefor it.
I think there's, I mean thereare some great examples of
(11:33):
novels that involve dance anduh, and that depict it.
And I would love to contributeto that canon.
I think there should be more.
I think it is such a,, writingabout dance is so fun and so
interesting and, and kind ofstrange to kind of capture
visually what's happening onstage to try and convey that.
There's a lot of.
(11:54):
I, I think it is, as a writer,it's a really exciting kind of
seed for writing.
And I think that's one of thethings that attracted me to, to
dance writing is the fact thatit allowed me to, to kind of
respond to the poetry on stagewith my own kind of poetry.
And, and I'm not a poet.
I, I just write prose.
(12:14):
But there was something aboutHow open dance is to, to
interpretation the, theevocative visuals that it
presents.
That just is such an excitingthing to engage with as a
writer, to the challenge ofdescribing it, the, the
challenge of communicating andconveying it to readers who
aren't there, and then theinterpretation of it.
(12:34):
It's almost like interpreting adream, but it allows you to go
in really interestingdirections.
And then of course, you'rebringing.
Entirely your own, your yourselfand your perspective to it.
But, but it, it's such anexciting exercise.
Brett Benner (12:49):
Well, and also just that world itself, I mean
the, the, you know, thecharacters, the people that
inhabit that world, you know,the, that's so fascinating too.
And,
Brian Schaeffer (13:00):
And exactly.
And, and the dedicationrequired, the, the training that
it takes to get to an elitelevel and kind of how, How
quickly it passes.
And I think that's somethingthat is so much a part of the
story of dance is, this finitewindow in which you're, you're
really dancing at your best,you're dancing, you know, to
your body's largest capacity.
(13:22):
And of course there's dance thatdoesn't require,, you know, the
physical.
The physical dexterity of, youknow, mm-hmm.
Of the elite ballet dancers.
I mean, there are dancers thatdance their entire lives and
there's dancing that embracesall different types of bodies
and different bodies and olderbodies, and that is as beautiful
and as exciting.
(13:42):
But I think when we think ofthese kind of, you know.
Elite forms and we think aboutballet, there is this tiny, tiny
window and I think there'ssomething about striving for
that and how quickly that thatcomes and goes.
It's inherent drama and ofcourse that's, you know,
especially before in a story.
Brett Benner (13:58):
Yeah.
So, okay, so speaking ofstories, when did it start for
you, for town and country?
Well, what, I guess you shouldsay this, you, you, you split
your time between Manhattan andyou have a place in the Hudson
Valley, which is kind of theinspiration for the book.
But what was the specific seedthat took Ruth that said, I
think there's something here andI wanna write about it.
Brian Schaeffer (14:19):
There's a congressional race here in 2014
in our district that just, thatwhen I learned of it, I was
really interested in thedynamics of it, and it's, it's
the dynamics that that.
Are mirrored in thecongressional race, in town and
country, and we have a young gaycandidate who has recently
(14:39):
purchased a home in in thedistrict to launch his political
career.
And goes against a, a long timeresident of the town who, you
know, was the incumbent in thiscase.
And it just kind of put togetherthese really interesting
dynamics that, you know, Iwasn't voting here at the time,
I wasn't involved in that race.
I didn't cast a vote in it, butfor a lot of my now friends up
(15:01):
here, it was a race that raiseda lot of questions for them in
terms of how they identifiedwith either candidate and what
Brett Benner (15:09):
and,
Brian Schaeffer (15:10):
and it made them raise questions.
As to who was actually the bestrepresentative of this, of this
place, and I think it.
Brought up a lot of questionsfor them in terms of where their
loyalties lie.
Who do I identify with the, um,and, and do I make a calculation
based on the national impact oron, you know, on kind of who is
(15:31):
right for this district.
And I was, I was interested inthe tensions that it kind of
brought up, and in particularlyamongst my group of friends,
some of the discomfort with,with.
Who they most identified withand who they felt was, you know,
kind of the right person inthis, in this instance.
And so it made me reflect on.
(15:53):
Our role in the community assecond homeowners, we are
part-time residents.
This is a common dynamic acrossthe country in so many different
places, and it's a wonderfulthing to be able to, you know,
and it's, it's truly theultimate privilege to be able to
split your time between twoplaces, one with an exciting
(16:14):
urban energy and all of thatthat brings with the theater and
the culture.
Conveniences.
And then also to escape and to,to really enjoy the beauty of
nature and.
You know, the Hudson Valley hasincredible, an incredible
agricultural community.
And so it's very special herefrom a, from a culinary
(16:34):
perspective.
But there's also, you know,behind that, there are really
serious questions in terms of,well, do I have a right to shape
the direction of this place ifI, if I'm able to vote here, and
whose priority should Iprioritize as a part-time
resident?
Do I get to make my national.
Priorities, do they supersedethe, the needs of the local
(16:57):
community?
And how well do I understand theneeds of the local community?
How closely am I looking atthem?
What do I allow myself to see?
Or how much am I insisting onstaying in my bubble?
And, and so I started thinking alot about these questions.
And the dynamics of thatcongressional race kind of gave
me a structure of a story andfor quite a while, I would say
(17:17):
for over a year, I just kind ofthought about how that might
play out in a story.
I took notes on it and then kindof ultimately, I, I had been
doing journalism since I movedto New York for seven, eight
years and really enjoyed that.
But it was also getting a littleantsy to return to fiction.
And so it was in November, 2019that I decided to do, I had just
(17:41):
heard about this and I decidedon a whim to do National novel
Writing Month, Nan imo, whichhad been around for a while for.
I think 25, 30 years, and it'sthe month of November.
And it's an online community ofpeople who, altogether kind of
are pursuing a 50,000 wordnovel.
You write like 2000 words a day.
You just spit it out and you getall this, you know, raw material
(18:04):
and it's.
Definitely not a final version,but if you choose to, there is,
you know, there's somethingthere to work with.
And so I said, well, I have thisfun idea and I'm just gonna use
this month and I'm just going tospit it out and see what comes
from it.
And I did that and it was agreat exercise and I had
absolutely no intention oftaking it any further.
(18:25):
And then my husband wanted toread it, so he read it over the,
the holidays that year and hesaid.
This is really, this is reallyinteresting.
You should pursue this.
And I said, okay, great.
Sure, that sounds fun.
And I'll, you know, I'll carvesome time out this spring and
summer between all the articledeadlines that I have between
(18:46):
the Jacobs Pillow,, scholarlyresidence gigs, and, you know,
maybe I'll take a week here anda week there to, explore it a
little further.
And then of course,, COVID camethree months later in March,
2020.
And all of my, all theperformances that I was writing
about went away.
Jacobs told it was canceled thatyear.
All the journalism was, was offmy plate and I had this rough
(19:10):
draft of a novel and I said,well.
I think I'm gonna make this myfull-time job and I am going to
actually make this the thingthat I want it to be.
And so that's how, wow.
That's how the journey started.
Brett Benner (19:23):
Wow.
And after one draft, it was doneand perfect.
Brian Schaeffer (19:26):
Exactly.
Oh,
Brett Benner (19:28):
that's amazing.
I never asked you in thebeginning for, and I do this
generally ask for like a, anelevator pitch, and yet you kind
of covered a lot of what thebook is, just in your
explanation in terms of the.
The congressional race that kindof centers this.
It's a, it's a large cast ofcharacters that you get to know
rather quickly.
(19:48):
I'm so curious, is there, wasthere an entry point with, with
someone that you were like, thisis who I see this through first
and then it kind of spread fromthere?
I think,
Brian Schaeffer (19:59):
I think in a lot of ways it started with the
character of Will who is the sonof the local candidate, who then
falls in with the.
Click of gay second homeownerswho, for the social circle of
the, the young gay candidate whohas recently moved to town.
And he was the bridge betweenthem.
(20:21):
And so I think in a lot of wayshe was the starting point to
imagine how their worlds mightbecome entangled.
And I was interested in findingthe characters who would kind of
represent both perspectives.
I think.
You know, there was a version ofthe novel that could have been
kind of, either just from theperspective of the second
(20:42):
homeowners or just from thelocals kind of looking
critically.
And I was interested inexploring, kind of all the
different.
All the different lenses and allthe different ways that people
might be perceived because itultimately became, a kind of
project in imagining how othersview us.
And it really started for myselfas a, as a project and imagining
(21:04):
how our neighbors here byperceive our, our community of
friends, our growing group of,of basic homeowners.
And I wanted to think of itcritically.
I it was, self-analysis,self-examination.
Personally and kind ofcommunally.
And I wanted to, I wanted tofind a frame where I could look
at that and, and really try andkind of x-ray, kind of who we
(21:28):
are, what we're doing in thisregion, what our impact is, what
our responsibilities are, how wethink about ourselves, but also
the way that these interactionschange people and they change
the way that you perceive eachother and.
I think kind of organically itgrew to include all these
different characters becausethere were so many different
ways that I wanted to enter thestory and so many different
(21:49):
facets of these dynamics andthese communities and these
relationships that I wanted toexplore.
And so yeah, so I ended up withsix point of view characters,
which if.
You if you were to start a novelfrom scratch, you would never
ever do that.
It is such a bad idea.
If you wanted to sell a debutnovel, I highly recommend not
(22:11):
having six point of viewcharacters.
It's kind of madness it.
You know, it, at some point, it,it really became a question of
why did I do this to myself?
Why did I do this to the story?
But also at the same time, it isthe thing that grew organically
and each of these charactersfelt that they had something
unique to contribute.
And each of them has aninteraction that, that I think
(22:35):
really deepens the themes of thestory.
And, uh, and I was really.
I was really excited to find away to weave them all together
and to see if I could create akind of fabric of a community.
And you know, there's also aversion that could have spread
out so much further.
I mean, in a lot of ways this isalso a very, very, very narrow,,
view of this community.
(22:56):
I mean, it is just a group offriends and just a single local
family.
And of course the Hudson Valleyand, and Hudson and, and the
fictional town of Griffin is somuch more, so much more faceted
and varied and diverse than,than what's depicted here.
Um, but I did, you know, evenwith six point of view,
characters want to keep a narrowfocus on it.
Brett Benner (23:19):
Well, one of the things I noticed, and I, I'm
assuming you chose to do it thisway, you never really addressed
or say the words Democrat,Republican, and you also kind of
remove a timeless, there's atimelessness to it, which it
feels now, it feels current, itfeels relevant, but I just mean
there's no referencing any knownpolitician in a national scale
(23:40):
or anything like that.
Which makes it very interestingbecause it does kind of strip
away, like you were talkingabout, for lack of a better
word, stereotyping someone andmaking someone seem less than a
multidimensional person.
Because there are things thatdrive people that we don't know
what their backgrounds are, andwe don't know why they do the
(24:00):
things they do necessarily, orwhat is leading them to do
something, or their fears ortheir thoughts.
So that I thought was a reallyinteresting choice to make.
I assume it was a verydeliberate choice.
Brian Schaeffer (24:13):
Yes.
Yeah, definitely deliberate and,and you're exactly right that it
is because we bring, we put somuch weight on those words and
those associations, and as soonas you label someone that.
It comes with, uh, it, it comeswith so much kind of cultural
assumptions and baggage and, youknow, and, you know, I'm not,
(24:35):
it, it, I didn't do it to becoy, or to suddenly suggest
that, you know, the person whoyou think is the Democrat is
actually the Republican.
It's, it's not a slight of hand.
The person who you think is theDemocrat is the Democrat, but.
But because we've, we'veburdened these, these parties
and these terms and theseassociations with so much, I
(24:56):
wanted to, I did exactly wannastrip away kind of what we bring
to it, which is also why Idecided to set it in a fictional
town in an undefined state, bothso that people could.
Could bring their kind of ownexperiences to it.
So wherever you are in thecountry, you probably know a, a
town, a region, uh, a dynamicthat is similar to this.
(25:18):
And so I wanted people to seethe thing that that kind of most
resonated with them, but also tokind of remove any associations
with the Hudson Valley, with NewYork State.
And the same reason for settingit kind of out of time was
because.
I wanted to focus on this placein the moment that it's in and
not ask it to respond towhatever's happening in national
(25:41):
politics at the time.
And, and I recognize that thatalso kind of strips it of I
think some of like the realtoxicity that is in our current
politics.
And one of my.
Concerns periodically throughoutwriting it and even still now,
is the way that there issomething slightly u utopian
(26:03):
about, uh, about this particularplace and about the politics of
this place and even the peoplewho all are operating with best
intentions and that there's noreal character who I think
reflects some of the real.
You know, real bad faith, badacting, toxic political figures
that we see in our culture todaythat doesn't exist in this
(26:26):
story.
It doesn't exist in this town.
And I worried that it wouldfeel, that it would feel unlike
America because it is almostlike too, aspirational, I think
politically in terms of, of howwell people.
Essentially behave themselves.
And also ultimately kind ofrespect and are able to see the,
(26:46):
you know, see the de decency ineach other.
But that was also part of theproject.
It also became something that Iwanted to explore is what would
a healthy politics look like andhow would each of us approaching
it as our best selves, whatmight that do to, to create the
kind of politics that we want?
(27:07):
And if we focus it kind of.
Of the, of the community andthe, the politics right in front
of us.
If we, if we look a little morelocally.
If we don't concern ourselveswith every single breaking news
notification, every singlepolitical crisis that is
happening across the country,but we do focus on strengthening
our relationship with ourneighbors, on participating in
(27:28):
our involvement in our, youknow, in our civic life.
In, you know, the, the actualvicinity around us, is that
maybe some way forward?
Is that maybe some way that wecan improve the political health
of our country?
And so this story is anillustration of that, and I
think it's kind of like ahopeful, hopeful plea for, for
(27:50):
maybe the way that we repairthe, the politics of America.
Brett Benner (27:54):
I do think exactly.
You said the word aspirationaland that's what I was thinking
too, because, but, but it is.
Aspirational in a way.
I identified so much with this,and like you said, it's a
microcosm of something largerand the hope is that yes, you
can find a way to exist amidstdifferences.
(28:16):
You know, it, it, it is hardwith the, like you said, the
constant text messages, theconstant alerts, the constant 24
hour news cycle that we're, uh,barraged with having a computer
in our pockets.
I, it was interesting becausewe, were invited over.
To our neighbor's house, um,this past weekend for a, for a
(28:37):
drink, and it's a, it's an olderstraight couple.
My husband had met them.
I had not met them yet and theycouldn't be nicer and more
welcoming, but it's sointeresting'cause when we walked
over, there was a, a flag in thefront of their house and they
had another flag in the back.
And, and I said afterwards,like, it's such a.
(28:59):
Crazy thing now that that flagbecomes so synonymous with kind
of the darker side of what isright now, as opposed to this,
you know, what it was say eightyears ago when it was not that
association.
So I had this moment as we'resitting there talking, I had no
reason to believe.
That they're nothing other thanwho they're presenting.
(29:21):
But I said to my husband later,I said, do you think they're
Republican?
And he's like, why, why do youthink that?
And I said, I, you know, I don'tknow.
I, and I said, I, I, I saw theflag and it's stupid.
It's totally stupid.
I know it, but it's just kind oflike conditioning now that
that's what I, you know,thinking to believe, and again,
there was no, there was no talkof politics.
There was nothing like that.
It was really talking about theneighborhood, talking about, you
(29:43):
know, our homes talking aboutthe best way to, you know, clear
brush, you know, the mostmundane life stuff.
But still, it's just aninteresting, I don't know.
Brian Schaeffer (29:55):
And, and if they are, you know, they invited
you into their home and youRight.
Also kind of invited them intoyour lives and that, and it
sounded like it was a positiveinteraction completely between
neighbors that, you know, whoknows?
Kind of where politics actuallyfigured into it.
But I think there is something,but, but that interaction is
(30:19):
valued, you know, is valuable.
And, and to build thoserelationships with, you know,
with your neighbors is, is partof the puzzle in terms of kind
of how we improve theserelations and dynamics and, you
know, and if something is, is toflare up in the community, uh,
around a particular issue,having built that personal
relationship with your neighborsis the thing that is going to
(30:39):
allow the community tohopefully.
Address it in a more kind ofrespectful manner.
Brett Benner (30:45):
Yeah, it does feel like, and I think one of the
appeals, I think in this bookand just generally'cause there
is a, a mass appeal for peopleto say, oh, I want that life.
Or, you know, when peoplevacation, they're going to these
small towns and, and looking atthem and, you know.
The, the Michelin starrestaurants that are tucked up
in something and the greatlittle bakeries and the, you
(31:08):
know, craft shops.
All these things that are soappealing to people that makes
them think like, oh, this is asimpler life.
This is a better life.
And one of the things that Ilove that the book does is.
You're showing that.
Yeah, but it's also veneer.
'cause it doesn't mean, again,when you are showing these local
people and the people that havelived there their whole life,
(31:30):
what things actually are likeand that things are not always
this.
Kind of wonderland that youmight think it is.
It's just such an interestingperspective to take the people
that are coming in who thinkthat they're going to some kind
of shangrila and the people thatare there who are watching
everyone come in and potentiallynot only disrupt what they have,
(31:52):
but economically make it so theycan't even afford.
To go to the places that arebeing put in.
Yeah.
Brian Schaeffer (31:58):
One of the most shocking things that we've
learned in our time up in theHudson Valley is that the, is
that Hudson is actuallyconsidered a food desert that by
the percentages of residents whodon't have access to affordable
food in close proximity by.
Kind of national standards, itis considered a food desert,
which is, which is crazy becauseof all the, the tourists and
(32:19):
second homeowners who celebratethe farm to table restaurants
and these, you know, wonderfulfarm stance and everything.
But the price is out of rangeand uh, a lot of that food is
unaffordable to, uh, a reallysignificant chunk of the
full-time Hudson population.
So that's kind of been an areawhere my husband and I have
gotten really involved in foodaccess and food equity and
(32:41):
we've.
We're on the board of the, thisreally, really full, uh,
community supported tieredgrocery store that has, you
know, various levels of, ofpricing so that you know.
Wealthier patrons can buy at a,at a retail level, and there's
subsidized prices for communitymembers.
(33:01):
And so kind of everybody is ableto participate in a healthier
food ecosystem.
But it's that kind of thingwhere the whole, you know, the
point of the book is saying if.
You have to look to, you have tolook at what's around you.
You have to look at this placethat you are, at a deeper level
to, to understand the dynamics,to understand the vast
experiences of the people thatyou live amongst.
And, and, and look, it's, it's,and it, it is both a call and a
(33:27):
critique of, you know, of peoplewho kind of otherwise will just
stay.
Stay at their pools and, andlive in their weekend bubbles.
And, and there's nothing wrongwith that either.
I mean, you, you have yourescape.
You have your home, you buildyour community.
It is a beautiful, wonderfulthing, but it does keep you
blinkered if you don't choose tolook beyond it.
(33:48):
Um, and, and I think it's also amissed opportunity to, um.
To not actually build thoserelationships and reach out with
the, the people you live amongstand mm-hmm.
You know, and, and this appliesto whether you only live in, in
one place.
It doesn't necessarily need toapply to, to second homeowners.
Um, but I think.
(34:08):
I think one of the things, youknow, we were talking about, uh,
just the idea of, of showing up,you know, that is, that is kind
of the big, I think, call of, ofthe book is that wherever you
are, um, like make the effortto, to step outside to.
Be part of your community inwhatever way that looks like.
(34:31):
Enjoy the, enjoy the circle andthe friends and the, that you've
built.
And also be sure to look beyondit, to kind of understand the,
the issues that wherever youlive are facing.
Do a little something to, toparticipate in that.
Brett Benner (34:46):
Do you feel more at home in one of your places,
in either the Valley or inManhattan?
Brian Schaeffer (34:54):
I think they offer very different things and
I feel at home in different waysin each place.
Mm-hmm.
And I have different routinesand, and, and different
communities.
I think one of the challenges isI, I think there is, um.
There is something that is lostalso when you do split your time
(35:18):
where you're not actually ableto just kind of fully be present
in one place.
I think for all the blessingsthat you know, being able to
toggle these two homes.
Uh, I think there's, uh, I thinkthere's a cost to that as well
in terms of your ability tobuild deeper relationships, your
ability to be fully involved.
(35:38):
There's a lot of opportunitiesup in the Hudson Valley that I'd
love to participate more in, andI can't offer the consistency of
my time given how much we, youknow, go back and forth.
Right.
And that's same in the city too.
And so, you know, I think.
I, I think there is something, Ithink there is like a cost to it
(35:59):
in terms of like, um, not beingfully present.
And that's something that kindof comes up for a few characters
in the book as well, where thereare, there are pros and cons and
there are awesome benefits and Ithink it's something that I
struggle with often is wantingto, to really just feel more
rooted in one place and, andsometimes when you're moving
(36:20):
back and forth.
You, you sacrifice that and Ithink it's, it's, it is like one
of the costs of, of having thisprivilege.
Brett Benner (36:29):
I think it'll be interesting to come back to you
and see in 10 years if that, ifthat answer changes to see if
one pulls you more or if youjust feel like, because of
exactly what you said, feelinglike, you know what?
I want to feel a little more.
Rooted, so to speak.
I
Brian Schaeffer (36:45):
definitely write better, in the Hudson
Valley.
I mean, I definitely, it'sdefinitely the place that I come
when I want to, slow down andthink and, and really kind of
allow my mind to be in acreative space.
I, I find it, I find it far moreproductive up here.
Brett Benner (37:06):
Yeah, that's interesting that you say that.
'cause I was talking to mybusiness partner the other day
and I just said, I find it somuch easier.
Same thing to focus here and Ican just kind of narrow in which
I, you know, in LA it wasconstantly, there was always
something and, and that's just,you know.
Noise, pollution, you know, thehelicopter over the house and
(37:26):
the blowers and the, you know,dogs barking and all of it.
Were here.
I hear a speedboat go by or, youknow, I hear a tugboat.
It's kind of cool.
But I, uh, it was when you weretalking earlier about just a few
minutes ago.
Two of the characters in thebook that I found so
interesting, and I don't wannaget too into it because I don't
(37:46):
wanna give any spoilers, but ittalks about that when you were
just saying characters whostruggle, uh, with these things
that you're talking about.
And that's the Eric and Daltonrelationship.
Eric is one of these people whoare the out of towners who come
in and Dalton is a, a man wholives in the town and I.
I loved this relationship.
(38:07):
I loved their dynamic.
I loved watching these twopeople get to know each other.
There's something I, when I wasgoing through the book, it
reminded me in a way of ArmsteadMoin, because you do take all
these, stories and thesecharacters, and you're putting
them in this place.
Like he did with Barbara Laneand, and we're watching them and
(38:31):
how they all are going to threadtogether.
I thought of that a lot of timesand I actually got to the end of
it and I thought.
Not that you would, andcertainly I'm not telling you
what to do, but you always couldreturn to these people in some
other kind of circumstancesbecause I think there's so much
there that is so ripe, andespecially when you look at, you
(38:52):
know, will as well.
And his maturation in terms ofwho he's becoming as this local
kid and the world that he's kindof being exposed to.
And again, we talk aboutaspiration, aspirational, and
uh.
I just think there's a lot ofmeat there, but that's, you
know.
Interesting.
Brian Schaeffer (39:10):
Well, thank you.
I'm glad that Eric and Daltonresonated.
They were certainly favoritecharacters of mines and and I
think they, I think they arekind of like the core
illustration of like, whathappens when you encounter
someone whose experiences are sodifferent from you and what that
can do in terms of.
Opening up your understanding ofyourself and, and your
(39:32):
understanding of yoursurroundings.
And, and one person can, canreally be the kind of entry
point and the guide to that.
And also the most unlikelyperson, the most like unexpected
person.
Sure.
Um, who, you know, just, justopens up.
All these possibilities and, andso, um, that was a relationship
that was not necessarily plannedor plotted from the beginning,
(39:54):
but one that kind of, I thinkreally kind of grew organically
and then, and came to take on alarger and larger, both
storytelling and also symbolicrole in the story.
And so, again, not to.
Give any spoilers, but, but thefact that you know, that they're
the people that we, you know,that we kind of continue with
(40:15):
and, and kind of ultimatelyconclude the story with is, was
a surprise to me, but also feltlike the most right way to, um,
to kind of come to the end of,of this chapter for these
characters.
Brett Benner (40:28):
Well, the book is like, is terrific.
Please go out and get it.
Buy independent if you can, ifyou're able to.
But congratulations, it is it.
It's really wonderful.
Brian Schaeffer (40:39):
Thanks so much, Brad.
It was really a pleasure tospeak with you.
Brett Benner (40:42):
Thank you again, Brian, and if you've liked this
episode or other episodes thatyou've heard of behind the
Stack, please consider likingand subscribing so that you
never miss an episode.
Also, what would be incrediblyhelpful for me and for the
podcast is if you could.
Rate the show with five stars,and if you have the time to
(41:02):
write a review, all of thesethings are incredibly helpful to
put the podcast in the eyes ofother people who haven't seen it
or heard it before.
Thanks again everybody, and havea really lovely week.
Hello and welcome or welcome back to another
episode of Behind the Stack,where today I am sitting down
with debut author Brian Schaeferfor his book Town and Country.
Brian is a really interestingguy.
His work has appeared in the NewYork Times, the New Yorker, New
York Magazine, tablet magazine,the Philadelphian Choir Out
(00:23):
Magazine, dance Magazine, theJerusalem Post, the Daily Beast.
The Forward and Moment Magazinefrom 2013 to 2025, Brian
co-wrote the weekly DanceListings for the New York Times
since 2015, he has been ascholar in residence at the
Jacobs Pillow Dance Festival inBeckett, Massachusetts, which is
(00:44):
America's longest runninginternational dance festival.
Brian was a finalist for the2012 Livington Award for young
journalists in the internationalreporting category for his
exploration of the history andpolitics of Israel's lesbian,
gay, bisexual, and transgendercommunity.
In 2007, Brian received aNational Endowment for the Arts
Fellowship in Arts Journalismfor Dance Criticism.
(01:06):
He was a board member of theDance Critic Association from
2011 to 2014 and a US StateDepartment Arts Ambassador in
2020.
Brian holds bachelor degrees incommunication and dance from the
University of California, SanDiego, and a Master's in
Literature creative writing fromBar Lawn University.
(01:27):
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
I am thrilled to be sitting downtoday with Brian Schafer for his
debut novel Town and Country,which is just so good.
I, I just loved it.
As I was saying to you, it, ithit a lot of spots with me in
(01:48):
particular, but I think it willfor a lot of people.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Brian Schaeffer (01:52):
My pleasure.
I'm so excited to, to be inconversation.
I'm such a fan of the podcast.
Brett Benner (01:56):
Oh my God.
Thank you so much.
So I wanted to go back just alittle bit'cause I'm so curious
in the history of Brian.
So you have your bachelor'sdegree in communication and
dance from the University ofCalifornia, San Diego and a
Master's in Literature inCreative Writing from, is it
Bar, lawn or Bar?
Lawn, university Bar, lawn Lon.
Yeah.
Um, so.
(02:17):
You were a
Brian Schaeffer (02:17):
dancer?
Yeah, I was a dancer for, forbasically the duration of my
college career.
And then a little bit afterwardsin San Diego.
I kind of really stumbled intoit.
I had always loved musicaltheater.
I grew up in a home where bothmy parents are big musical
theater fans, and so more thananything we were listening to
(02:40):
cast recordings and so we didthe high school musicals and
really enjoyed those.
Not much of an actor, not muchof a singer, but the dancing I
could pick up really quickly andreally enjoyed it.
And it came naturally.
And so it would always kind ofthrow me to the front, of the
stage for the dance sequences.
(03:00):
And, and so I enjoyed that.
And then when I got to, to SanDiego.
I had no idea what I wanted tostudy.
I went in as generalcommunication with no real
understanding of where thatwould lead.
But, a few friends of mine in myfreshman dorm said, Hey, they
have these fun hip hop danceclasses at the recreation
department.
Let's go do those together.
(03:22):
And so we did, and we, you know,and I loved it, loved picking up
the choreography.
The teacher again would kind oflike grab a few of us to be the
examples.
Then another friend of minesaid, well, you know, if you
take your dance classes throughthe dance department, then
they're free and you get credit.
And so I was like, okay, so I'llstart doing that.
(03:43):
So I started doing hip hopclasses, a little bit of modern,
and then the teacher see a tallguy and they basically grab you
and throw you on stage.
And within a year I wasperforming in the student dance
depart, like the departmentshowcase.
And so, and, and I was lovingit.
And so continue to take theseregular dance classes and once
(04:04):
you do modern dance and theysay, well, you know, you should
really take ballet to, you know,to enhance your technique.
So all of a sudden I'm takingmodern and ballet and hip hop
and jazz and more and more I'mtaking all these classes through
the dance departmentsimultaneously.
I'm on the crew team my firstyear.
So it was a bit of a wow,physically exhausting,,
(04:25):
physically exhausting year.
But I really loved the dance andwhen I studied abroad in
Copenhagen, I kind of immersedmyself in the, in the dancing
there and went to everythingthat the Royal Danish Ballet did
and fell in love with the artform.
And so I came back to San Diegoand said, okay, I really want to
pursue this.
(04:45):
And so I added a second majorand stayed a fifth year.
And did all of the history andthe criticism classes to, to
round out the major.
And it was actually like thecriticism classes that I most
fell in love with.
And so that's when I startedwriting about dance.
Brett Benner (05:00):
Mm-hmm.
Brian Schaeffer (05:01):
And, uh, and I had a professor who, when I
graduated, she said, you know,you're, you're improving as a
dancer and if you wanna pursuethat, you'll find a, a place for
yourself in the, you know, inthe dance field.
But dance needs writers and Ithink maybe that could be your
contribution.
And it was the first time that Ireally.
I thought about that as anoption, and so I, while I
(05:21):
continued to kind of perform fora few projects here and there in
San Diego, it's when I reallystarted pursuing writing about
dance and then contributing alittle bit to, I started a
personal blog and contributingto small local outlets and
that's kind of what led to, wow.
I guess kinda the first inklingof of dance, of dance
journalism.
Brett Benner (05:42):
Wow.
Are, are you still a scholar inresidence at Jacob's Pillow?
Brian Schaeffer (05:46):
I didn't do it this summer, but I had for the
previous, I
Brett Benner (05:50):
think
Brian Schaeffer (05:51):
nine or 10 summers.
Uh, so I've been doing it for awhile.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (05:55):
Can you just for our listeners and I viewers
explain, for people who don'tknow what Jacob's Pillow is.
Brian Schaeffer (06:01):
Yeah.
Jacobs Pillow is the oldestdance festival in the United
States.
It's in Beckett, Massachusetts.
It's this beautiful rural dancecampus where the theaters are
these beautiful old barns.
It's just a really specialplace.
There's farmhouse all over.
And since the 19, I guess it wasthe, it would been in the
(06:22):
thirties.
Um, forgive me for not knowingthe established year, but, but
Ted Sean, who was a seminalfigure in American modern dance,
founded it and started bringingall these international dance
figures.
And so it's been, has a summerfestival since and 10 weeks
every summer.
And so I've been going, they'veput me up in, an adorable little
(06:43):
farmhouse.
They assigned me to variouscompanies and then it's my
responsibility to write theprogram notes, to give pre-show
lectures to moderate post-showconversations.
And it's basically they have anincredible archive.
And it's just a mecca for dancehistory.
And it's part of the kind ofwhole Berkshires corridor, so
it's not far from Tanglewoodwith the music and the
(07:04):
Williamstown Theater Festival.
Yeah.
And, it's really a specialplace.
Brett Benner (07:07):
Now, did you grow up in California or did you grow
up in near New York?
No, I grew up in Pasadena,
Brian Schaeffer (07:12):
California.
Brett Benner (07:13):
In Pasadena.
Oh, okay.
Brian Schaeffer (07:15):
Yeah.
So I am, you're born and bred,Southern California.
Yeah, born and bred.
Grew up in Pasadena.
Went to school in San Diego, andso basically was based in
California until I was almost30.
Brett Benner (07:27):
I only thought of that because of your, you talk
when you talk about yourparents, um, and the whole
musical theater thing and takingyou to see musicals, and so I
immediately assume, oh, wellthey're in New York and, you
know, it's like a weekend thing.
That's so that's, that's a,that's amazing.
Brian Schaeffer (07:40):
No, my dad's accounting firm was responsible
for the accounting of the musictheater of Southern California.
Former, the San Gabriel CivicLight Opera, and that was my
introduction to Musicalfavorite.
Brett Benner (07:51):
And you saw every single tour that came through?
I saw it
Brian Schaeffer (07:53):
every, and I saw every tour that came
through, yes.
Brett Benner (07:57):
Okay.
I ha I just have to ask you, isit a version?
Like what are your favoritesMusicals?
My favorite
Brian Schaeffer (08:01):
musicals.
Oh my goodness.
Well.
I would say probably my topmusical is cabaret.
I am obsessed with it.
And, and that also kind offigures into literature a bit
because Christopher Isherwood ismy favorite Yeah.
Writer.
And and of course goodbye toBerlin.
His collection of of stories,um, is the foundation for
(08:23):
cabaret, but I also think it'sjust such a powerful just.
Chilling and thrilling musicaland all the different
productions,, kind of alwaysgive me something new and
different and, and I just findit kind of the, such like a, an
a stunning example of what liketheater can do and be.
(08:43):
So that one is Top Rent is, hasbeen such a seminal musical for
me.
My, when it came throughSouthern California, I remember
my mom took my brothers and Iout of school one day.
It was I think our Hanukkahgift.
One year she took us out ofschool to go see a, a matinee of
rent at, the Almonds andTheater.
And we were, we were in highschool.
(09:05):
And, and seeing that and seeingthose stories portrayed on
stage.
I mean, that was also, I hadn'tcome out yet and, but had a
sense that watching that showwas the first time that I had a
sense both of, I think these aremy people.
I think that's my community, andnot just because of it's.
You know, it's celebrateddepiction of the queer
(09:26):
characters, but also theartists, people who yeah.
Um, had really dedicated theirlives to, kind of sharing their
work, sharing their stories,creating this community.
I really, really responded tothat.
I think before I was able tounderstand why.
And then of course, there's songtime I'm obsessed with Into the
Woods.
Between that and Twe, uh,Sweeney Todd, probably hard to
choose like, which, which ofthem is my favorite song times.
(09:48):
But yeah.
But those would probably be topthree.
Brett Benner (09:52):
Wow.
See, Sunday would be mine ofthe, of the Sunday ones.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sunday was my favorite.
I also wonder, I was justthinking when you were talking
about rent and thinking, likethis is when you were, hadn't
come out yet.
I thought, I wonder if it wasalso like your mother's like,
well maybe this will pushsomething along.
Brian Schaeffer (10:06):
Yeah.
It's funny, when I came, when Idid ultimately come out to my
parents, they, she said that shehadn't necessarily, suspected,,
but the fact that she took us tothat show I think was.
One of the many kind of signalsthat I had from them that it was
gonna be fine's.
Great.
The, the fact that, you know,that she was able to share that
(10:27):
story with us and and that wewere able to kind of enjoy it
together and to talk about, youknow, the story, the characters,
the lives.
And that there was no kind ofdiscomfort there from, from my
parents' perspective.
I think was one of the thingsthat kind of allowed me to, not
that it, not that coming outdidn't have its fears and
anxieties, but, but it was thosekind of shows of, I think,
(10:49):
unconscious on their part, butreally, really significant in
the way that it created a, anunderstanding for me that, that
I would be fine and acceptedand, and still supported and
loved.
Sure.
Brett Benner (11:00):
Which is amazing.
Did you ever think when youstarted writing, I'm so curious
to write a story that involveddance?
Brian Schaeffer (11:11):
Yes, I, I have long thought about it.
I still would like to, I'm notsure.
I'm not sure yet what that storywould be and what I would want
it to do.
But I think, I think it's ripefor it.
I think there's, I mean thereare some great examples of
(11:33):
novels that involve dance anduh, and that depict it.
And I would love to contributeto that canon.
I think there should be more.
I think it is such a,, writingabout dance is so fun and so
interesting and, and kind ofstrange to kind of capture
visually what's happening onstage to try and convey that.
There's a lot of.
(11:54):
I, I think it is, as a writer,it's a really exciting kind of
seed for writing.
And I think that's one of thethings that attracted me to, to
dance writing is the fact thatit allowed me to, to kind of
respond to the poetry on stagewith my own kind of poetry.
And, and I'm not a poet.
I, I just write prose.
(12:14):
But there was something aboutHow open dance is to, to
interpretation the, theevocative visuals that it
presents.
That just is such an excitingthing to engage with as a
writer, to the challenge ofdescribing it, the, the
challenge of communicating andconveying it to readers who
aren't there, and then theinterpretation of it.
(12:34):
It's almost like interpreting adream, but it allows you to go
in really interestingdirections.
And then of course, you'rebringing.
Entirely your own, your yourselfand your perspective to it.
But, but it, it's such anexciting exercise.
Brett Benner (12:49):
Well, and also just that world itself, I mean
the, the, you know, thecharacters, the people that
inhabit that world, you know,the, that's so fascinating too.
And,
Brian Schaeffer (13:00):
And exactly.
And, and the dedicationrequired, the, the training that
it takes to get to an elitelevel and kind of how, How
quickly it passes.
And I think that's somethingthat is so much a part of the
story of dance is, this finitewindow in which you're, you're
really dancing at your best,you're dancing, you know, to
your body's largest capacity.
(13:22):
And of course there's dance thatdoesn't require,, you know, the
physical.
The physical dexterity of, youknow, mm-hmm.
Of the elite ballet dancers.
I mean, there are dancers thatdance their entire lives and
there's dancing that embracesall different types of bodies
and different bodies and olderbodies, and that is as beautiful
and as exciting.
(13:42):
But I think when we think ofthese kind of, you know.
Elite forms and we think aboutballet, there is this tiny, tiny
window and I think there'ssomething about striving for
that and how quickly that thatcomes and goes.
It's inherent drama and ofcourse that's, you know,
especially before in a story.
Brett Benner (13:58):
Yeah.
So, okay, so speaking ofstories, when did it start for
you, for town and country?
Well, what, I guess you shouldsay this, you, you, you split
your time between Manhattan andyou have a place in the Hudson
Valley, which is kind of theinspiration for the book.
But what was the specific seedthat took Ruth that said, I
think there's something here andI wanna write about it.
Brian Schaeffer (14:19):
There's a congressional race here in 2014
in our district that just, thatwhen I learned of it, I was
really interested in thedynamics of it, and it's, it's
the dynamics that that.
Are mirrored in thecongressional race, in town and
country, and we have a young gaycandidate who has recently
(14:39):
purchased a home in in thedistrict to launch his political
career.
And goes against a, a long timeresident of the town who, you
know, was the incumbent in thiscase.
And it just kind of put togetherthese really interesting
dynamics that, you know, Iwasn't voting here at the time,
I wasn't involved in that race.
I didn't cast a vote in it, butfor a lot of my now friends up
(15:01):
here, it was a race that raiseda lot of questions for them in
terms of how they identifiedwith either candidate and what
Brett Benner (15:09):
and,
Brian Schaeffer (15:10):
and it made them raise questions.
As to who was actually the bestrepresentative of this, of this
place, and I think it.
Brought up a lot of questionsfor them in terms of where their
loyalties lie.
Who do I identify with the, um,and, and do I make a calculation
based on the national impact oron, you know, on kind of who is
(15:31):
right for this district.
And I was, I was interested inthe tensions that it kind of
brought up, and in particularlyamongst my group of friends,
some of the discomfort with,with.
Who they most identified withand who they felt was, you know,
kind of the right person inthis, in this instance.
And so it made me reflect on.
(15:53):
Our role in the community assecond homeowners, we are
part-time residents.
This is a common dynamic acrossthe country in so many different
places, and it's a wonderfulthing to be able to, you know,
and it's, it's truly theultimate privilege to be able to
split your time between twoplaces, one with an exciting
(16:14):
urban energy and all of thatthat brings with the theater and
the culture.
Conveniences.
And then also to escape and to,to really enjoy the beauty of
nature and.
You know, the Hudson Valley hasincredible, an incredible
agricultural community.
And so it's very special herefrom a, from a culinary
(16:34):
perspective.
But there's also, you know,behind that, there are really
serious questions in terms of,well, do I have a right to shape
the direction of this place ifI, if I'm able to vote here, and
whose priority should Iprioritize as a part-time
resident?
Do I get to make my national.
Priorities, do they supersedethe, the needs of the local
(16:57):
community?
And how well do I understand theneeds of the local community?
How closely am I looking atthem?
What do I allow myself to see?
Or how much am I insisting onstaying in my bubble?
And, and so I started thinking alot about these questions.
And the dynamics of thatcongressional race kind of gave
me a structure of a story andfor quite a while, I would say
(17:17):
for over a year, I just kind ofthought about how that might
play out in a story.
I took notes on it and then kindof ultimately, I, I had been
doing journalism since I movedto New York for seven, eight
years and really enjoyed that.
But it was also getting a littleantsy to return to fiction.
And so it was in November, 2019that I decided to do, I had just
(17:41):
heard about this and I decidedon a whim to do National novel
Writing Month, Nan imo, whichhad been around for a while for.
I think 25, 30 years, and it'sthe month of November.
And it's an online community ofpeople who, altogether kind of
are pursuing a 50,000 wordnovel.
You write like 2000 words a day.
You just spit it out and you getall this, you know, raw material
(18:04):
and it's.
Definitely not a final version,but if you choose to, there is,
you know, there's somethingthere to work with.
And so I said, well, I have thisfun idea and I'm just gonna use
this month and I'm just going tospit it out and see what comes
from it.
And I did that and it was agreat exercise and I had
absolutely no intention oftaking it any further.
(18:25):
And then my husband wanted toread it, so he read it over the,
the holidays that year and hesaid.
This is really, this is reallyinteresting.
You should pursue this.
And I said, okay, great.
Sure, that sounds fun.
And I'll, you know, I'll carvesome time out this spring and
summer between all the articledeadlines that I have between
(18:46):
the Jacobs Pillow,, scholarlyresidence gigs, and, you know,
maybe I'll take a week here anda week there to, explore it a
little further.
And then of course,, COVID camethree months later in March,
2020.
And all of my, all theperformances that I was writing
about went away.
Jacobs told it was canceled thatyear.
All the journalism was, was offmy plate and I had this rough
(19:10):
draft of a novel and I said,well.
I think I'm gonna make this myfull-time job and I am going to
actually make this the thingthat I want it to be.
And so that's how, wow.
That's how the journey started.
Brett Benner (19:23):
Wow.
And after one draft, it was doneand perfect.
Brian Schaeffer (19:26):
Exactly.
Oh,
Brett Benner (19:28):
that's amazing.
I never asked you in thebeginning for, and I do this
generally ask for like a, anelevator pitch, and yet you kind
of covered a lot of what thebook is, just in your
explanation in terms of the.
The congressional race that kindof centers this.
It's a, it's a large cast ofcharacters that you get to know
rather quickly.
(19:48):
I'm so curious, is there, wasthere an entry point with, with
someone that you were like, thisis who I see this through first
and then it kind of spread fromthere?
I think,
Brian Schaeffer (19:59):
I think in a lot of ways it started with the
character of Will who is the sonof the local candidate, who then
falls in with the.
Click of gay second homeownerswho, for the social circle of
the, the young gay candidate whohas recently moved to town.
And he was the bridge betweenthem.
(20:21):
And so I think in a lot of wayshe was the starting point to
imagine how their worlds mightbecome entangled.
And I was interested in findingthe characters who would kind of
represent both perspectives.
I think.
You know, there was a version ofthe novel that could have been
kind of, either just from theperspective of the second
(20:42):
homeowners or just from thelocals kind of looking
critically.
And I was interested inexploring, kind of all the
different.
All the different lenses and allthe different ways that people
might be perceived because itultimately became, a kind of
project in imagining how othersview us.
And it really started for myselfas a, as a project and imagining
(21:04):
how our neighbors here byperceive our, our community of
friends, our growing group of,of basic homeowners.
And I wanted to think of itcritically.
I it was, self-analysis,self-examination.
Personally and kind ofcommunally.
And I wanted to, I wanted tofind a frame where I could look
at that and, and really try andkind of x-ray, kind of who we
(21:28):
are, what we're doing in thisregion, what our impact is, what
our responsibilities are, how wethink about ourselves, but also
the way that these interactionschange people and they change
the way that you perceive eachother and.
I think kind of organically itgrew to include all these
different characters becausethere were so many different
ways that I wanted to enter thestory and so many different
(21:49):
facets of these dynamics andthese communities and these
relationships that I wanted toexplore.
And so yeah, so I ended up withsix point of view characters,
which if.
You if you were to start a novelfrom scratch, you would never
ever do that.
It is such a bad idea.
If you wanted to sell a debutnovel, I highly recommend not
(22:11):
having six point of viewcharacters.
It's kind of madness it.
You know, it, at some point, it,it really became a question of
why did I do this to myself?
Why did I do this to the story?
But also at the same time, it isthe thing that grew organically
and each of these charactersfelt that they had something
unique to contribute.
And each of them has aninteraction that, that I think
(22:35):
really deepens the themes of thestory.
And, uh, and I was really.
I was really excited to find away to weave them all together
and to see if I could create akind of fabric of a community.
And you know, there's also aversion that could have spread
out so much further.
I mean, in a lot of ways this isalso a very, very, very narrow,,
view of this community.
(22:56):
I mean, it is just a group offriends and just a single local
family.
And of course the Hudson Valleyand, and Hudson and, and the
fictional town of Griffin is somuch more, so much more faceted
and varied and diverse than,than what's depicted here.
Um, but I did, you know, evenwith six point of view,
characters want to keep a narrowfocus on it.
Brett Benner (23:19):
Well, one of the things I noticed, and I, I'm
assuming you chose to do it thisway, you never really addressed
or say the words Democrat,Republican, and you also kind of
remove a timeless, there's atimelessness to it, which it
feels now, it feels current, itfeels relevant, but I just mean
there's no referencing any knownpolitician in a national scale
(23:40):
or anything like that.
Which makes it very interestingbecause it does kind of strip
away, like you were talkingabout, for lack of a better
word, stereotyping someone andmaking someone seem less than a
multidimensional person.
Because there are things thatdrive people that we don't know
what their backgrounds are, andwe don't know why they do the
(24:00):
things they do necessarily, orwhat is leading them to do
something, or their fears ortheir thoughts.
So that I thought was a reallyinteresting choice to make.
I assume it was a verydeliberate choice.
Brian Schaeffer (24:13):
Yes.
Yeah, definitely deliberate and,and you're exactly right that it
is because we bring, we put somuch weight on those words and
those associations, and as soonas you label someone that.
It comes with, uh, it, it comeswith so much kind of cultural
assumptions and baggage and, youknow, and, you know, I'm not,
(24:35):
it, it, I didn't do it to becoy, or to suddenly suggest
that, you know, the person whoyou think is the Democrat is
actually the Republican.
It's, it's not a slight of hand.
The person who you think is theDemocrat is the Democrat, but.
But because we've, we'veburdened these, these parties
and these terms and theseassociations with so much, I
(24:56):
wanted to, I did exactly wannastrip away kind of what we bring
to it, which is also why Idecided to set it in a fictional
town in an undefined state, bothso that people could.
Could bring their kind of ownexperiences to it.
So wherever you are in thecountry, you probably know a, a
town, a region, uh, a dynamicthat is similar to this.
(25:18):
And so I wanted people to seethe thing that that kind of most
resonated with them, but also tokind of remove any associations
with the Hudson Valley, with NewYork State.
And the same reason for settingit kind of out of time was
because.
I wanted to focus on this placein the moment that it's in and
not ask it to respond towhatever's happening in national
(25:41):
politics at the time.
And, and I recognize that thatalso kind of strips it of I
think some of like the realtoxicity that is in our current
politics.
And one of my.
Concerns periodically throughoutwriting it and even still now,
is the way that there issomething slightly u utopian
(26:03):
about, uh, about this particularplace and about the politics of
this place and even the peoplewho all are operating with best
intentions and that there's noreal character who I think
reflects some of the real.
You know, real bad faith, badacting, toxic political figures
that we see in our culture todaythat doesn't exist in this
(26:26):
story.
It doesn't exist in this town.
And I worried that it wouldfeel, that it would feel unlike
America because it is almostlike too, aspirational, I think
politically in terms of, of howwell people.
Essentially behave themselves.
And also ultimately kind ofrespect and are able to see the,
(26:46):
you know, see the de decency ineach other.
But that was also part of theproject.
It also became something that Iwanted to explore is what would
a healthy politics look like andhow would each of us approaching
it as our best selves, whatmight that do to, to create the
kind of politics that we want?
(27:07):
And if we focus it kind of.
Of the, of the community andthe, the politics right in front
of us.
If we, if we look a little morelocally.
If we don't concern ourselveswith every single breaking news
notification, every singlepolitical crisis that is
happening across the country,but we do focus on strengthening
our relationship with ourneighbors, on participating in
(27:28):
our involvement in our, youknow, in our civic life.
In, you know, the, the actualvicinity around us, is that
maybe some way forward?
Is that maybe some way that wecan improve the political health
of our country?
And so this story is anillustration of that, and I
think it's kind of like ahopeful, hopeful plea for, for
(27:50):
maybe the way that we repairthe, the politics of America.
Brett Benner (27:54):
I do think exactly.
You said the word aspirationaland that's what I was thinking
too, because, but, but it is.
Aspirational in a way.
I identified so much with this,and like you said, it's a
microcosm of something largerand the hope is that yes, you
can find a way to exist amidstdifferences.
(28:16):
You know, it, it, it is hardwith the, like you said, the
constant text messages, theconstant alerts, the constant 24
hour news cycle that we're, uh,barraged with having a computer
in our pockets.
I, it was interesting becausewe, were invited over.
To our neighbor's house, um,this past weekend for a, for a
(28:37):
drink, and it's a, it's an olderstraight couple.
My husband had met them.
I had not met them yet and theycouldn't be nicer and more
welcoming, but it's sointeresting'cause when we walked
over, there was a, a flag in thefront of their house and they
had another flag in the back.
And, and I said afterwards,like, it's such a.
(28:59):
Crazy thing now that that flagbecomes so synonymous with kind
of the darker side of what isright now, as opposed to this,
you know, what it was say eightyears ago when it was not that
association.
So I had this moment as we'resitting there talking, I had no
reason to believe.
That they're nothing other thanwho they're presenting.
(29:21):
But I said to my husband later,I said, do you think they're
Republican?
And he's like, why, why do youthink that?
And I said, I, you know, I don'tknow.
I, and I said, I, I, I saw theflag and it's stupid.
It's totally stupid.
I know it, but it's just kind oflike conditioning now that
that's what I, you know,thinking to believe, and again,
there was no, there was no talkof politics.
There was nothing like that.
It was really talking about theneighborhood, talking about, you
(29:43):
know, our homes talking aboutthe best way to, you know, clear
brush, you know, the mostmundane life stuff.
But still, it's just aninteresting, I don't know.
Brian Schaeffer (29:55):
And, and if they are, you know, they invited
you into their home and youRight.
Also kind of invited them intoyour lives and that, and it
sounded like it was a positiveinteraction completely between
neighbors that, you know, whoknows?
Kind of where politics actuallyfigured into it.
But I think there is something,but, but that interaction is
(30:19):
valued, you know, is valuable.
And, and to build thoserelationships with, you know,
with your neighbors is, is partof the puzzle in terms of kind
of how we improve theserelations and dynamics and, you
know, and if something is, is toflare up in the community, uh,
around a particular issue,having built that personal
relationship with your neighborsis the thing that is going to
(30:39):
allow the community tohopefully.
Address it in a more kind ofrespectful manner.
Brett Benner (30:45):
Yeah, it does feel like, and I think one of the
appeals, I think in this bookand just generally'cause there
is a, a mass appeal for peopleto say, oh, I want that life.
Or, you know, when peoplevacation, they're going to these
small towns and, and looking atthem and, you know.
The, the Michelin starrestaurants that are tucked up
in something and the greatlittle bakeries and the, you
(31:08):
know, craft shops.
All these things that are soappealing to people that makes
them think like, oh, this is asimpler life.
This is a better life.
And one of the things that Ilove that the book does is.
You're showing that.
Yeah, but it's also veneer.
'cause it doesn't mean, again,when you are showing these local
people and the people that havelived there their whole life,
(31:30):
what things actually are likeand that things are not always
this.
Kind of wonderland that youmight think it is.
It's just such an interestingperspective to take the people
that are coming in who thinkthat they're going to some kind
of shangrila and the people thatare there who are watching
everyone come in and potentiallynot only disrupt what they have,
(31:52):
but economically make it so theycan't even afford.
To go to the places that arebeing put in.
Yeah.
Brian Schaeffer (31:58):
One of the most shocking things that we've
learned in our time up in theHudson Valley is that the, is
that Hudson is actuallyconsidered a food desert that by
the percentages of residents whodon't have access to affordable
food in close proximity by.
Kind of national standards, itis considered a food desert,
which is, which is crazy becauseof all the, the tourists and
(32:19):
second homeowners who celebratethe farm to table restaurants
and these, you know, wonderfulfarm stance and everything.
But the price is out of rangeand uh, a lot of that food is
unaffordable to, uh, a reallysignificant chunk of the
full-time Hudson population.
So that's kind of been an areawhere my husband and I have
gotten really involved in foodaccess and food equity and
(32:41):
we've.
We're on the board of the, thisreally, really full, uh,
community supported tieredgrocery store that has, you
know, various levels of, ofpricing so that you know.
Wealthier patrons can buy at a,at a retail level, and there's
subsidized prices for communitymembers.
(33:01):
And so kind of everybody is ableto participate in a healthier
food ecosystem.
But it's that kind of thingwhere the whole, you know, the
point of the book is saying if.
You have to look to, you have tolook at what's around you.
You have to look at this placethat you are, at a deeper level
to, to understand the dynamics,to understand the vast
experiences of the people thatyou live amongst.
And, and, and look, it's, it's,and it, it is both a call and a
(33:27):
critique of, you know, of peoplewho kind of otherwise will just
stay.
Stay at their pools and, andlive in their weekend bubbles.
And, and there's nothing wrongwith that either.
I mean, you, you have yourescape.
You have your home, you buildyour community.
It is a beautiful, wonderfulthing, but it does keep you
blinkered if you don't choose tolook beyond it.
(33:48):
Um, and, and I think it's also amissed opportunity to, um.
To not actually build thoserelationships and reach out with
the, the people you live amongstand mm-hmm.
You know, and, and this appliesto whether you only live in, in
one place.
It doesn't necessarily need toapply to, to second homeowners.
Um, but I think.
(34:08):
I think one of the things, youknow, we were talking about, uh,
just the idea of, of showing up,you know, that is, that is kind
of the big, I think, call of, ofthe book is that wherever you
are, um, like make the effortto, to step outside to.
Be part of your community inwhatever way that looks like.
(34:31):
Enjoy the, enjoy the circle andthe friends and the, that you've
built.
And also be sure to look beyondit, to kind of understand the,
the issues that wherever youlive are facing.
Do a little something to, toparticipate in that.
Brett Benner (34:46):
Do you feel more at home in one of your places,
in either the Valley or inManhattan?
Brian Schaeffer (34:54):
I think they offer very different things and
I feel at home in different waysin each place.
Mm-hmm.
And I have different routinesand, and, and different
communities.
I think one of the challenges isI, I think there is, um.
There is something that is lostalso when you do split your time
(35:18):
where you're not actually ableto just kind of fully be present
in one place.
I think for all the blessingsthat you know, being able to
toggle these two homes.
Uh, I think there's, uh, I thinkthere's a cost to that as well
in terms of your ability tobuild deeper relationships, your
ability to be fully involved.
(35:38):
There's a lot of opportunitiesup in the Hudson Valley that I'd
love to participate more in, andI can't offer the consistency of
my time given how much we, youknow, go back and forth.
Right.
And that's same in the city too.
And so, you know, I think.
I, I think there is something, Ithink there is like a cost to it
(35:59):
in terms of like, um, not beingfully present.
And that's something that kindof comes up for a few characters
in the book as well, where thereare, there are pros and cons and
there are awesome benefits and Ithink it's something that I
struggle with often is wantingto, to really just feel more
rooted in one place and, andsometimes when you're moving
(36:20):
back and forth.
You, you sacrifice that and Ithink it's, it's, it is like one
of the costs of, of having thisprivilege.
Brett Benner (36:29):
I think it'll be interesting to come back to you
and see in 10 years if that, ifthat answer changes to see if
one pulls you more or if youjust feel like, because of
exactly what you said, feelinglike, you know what?
I want to feel a little more.
Rooted, so to speak.
I
Brian Schaeffer (36:45):
definitely write better, in the Hudson
Valley.
I mean, I definitely, it'sdefinitely the place that I come
when I want to, slow down andthink and, and really kind of
allow my mind to be in acreative space.
I, I find it, I find it far moreproductive up here.
Brett Benner (37:06):
Yeah, that's interesting that you say that.
'cause I was talking to mybusiness partner the other day
and I just said, I find it somuch easier.
Same thing to focus here and Ican just kind of narrow in which
I, you know, in LA it wasconstantly, there was always
something and, and that's just,you know.
Noise, pollution, you know, thehelicopter over the house and
(37:26):
the blowers and the, you know,dogs barking and all of it.
Were here.
I hear a speedboat go by or, youknow, I hear a tugboat.
It's kind of cool.
But I, uh, it was when you weretalking earlier about just a few
minutes ago.
Two of the characters in thebook that I found so
interesting, and I don't wannaget too into it because I don't
(37:46):
wanna give any spoilers, but ittalks about that when you were
just saying characters whostruggle, uh, with these things
that you're talking about.
And that's the Eric and Daltonrelationship.
Eric is one of these people whoare the out of towners who come
in and Dalton is a, a man wholives in the town and I.
I loved this relationship.
(38:07):
I loved their dynamic.
I loved watching these twopeople get to know each other.
There's something I, when I wasgoing through the book, it
reminded me in a way of ArmsteadMoin, because you do take all
these, stories and thesecharacters, and you're putting
them in this place.
Like he did with Barbara Laneand, and we're watching them and
(38:31):
how they all are going to threadtogether.
I thought of that a lot of timesand I actually got to the end of
it and I thought.
Not that you would, andcertainly I'm not telling you
what to do, but you always couldreturn to these people in some
other kind of circumstancesbecause I think there's so much
there that is so ripe, andespecially when you look at, you
(38:52):
know, will as well.
And his maturation in terms ofwho he's becoming as this local
kid and the world that he's kindof being exposed to.
And again, we talk aboutaspiration, aspirational, and
uh.
I just think there's a lot ofmeat there, but that's, you
know.
Interesting.
Brian Schaeffer (39:10):
Well, thank you.
I'm glad that Eric and Daltonresonated.
They were certainly favoritecharacters of mines and and I
think they, I think they arekind of like the core
illustration of like, whathappens when you encounter
someone whose experiences are sodifferent from you and what that
can do in terms of.
Opening up your understanding ofyourself and, and your
(39:32):
understanding of yoursurroundings.
And, and one person can, canreally be the kind of entry
point and the guide to that.
And also the most unlikelyperson, the most like unexpected
person.
Sure.
Um, who, you know, just, justopens up.
All these possibilities and, andso, um, that was a relationship
that was not necessarily plannedor plotted from the beginning,
(39:54):
but one that kind of, I thinkreally kind of grew organically
and then, and came to take on alarger and larger, both
storytelling and also symbolicrole in the story.
And so, again, not to.
Give any spoilers, but, but thefact that you know, that they're
the people that we, you know,that we kind of continue with
(40:15):
and, and kind of ultimatelyconclude the story with is, was
a surprise to me, but also feltlike the most right way to, um,
to kind of come to the end of,of this chapter for these
characters.
Brett Benner (40:28):
Well, the book is like, is terrific.
Please go out and get it.
Buy independent if you can, ifyou're able to.
But congratulations, it is it.
It's really wonderful.
Brian Schaeffer (40:39):
Thanks so much, Brad.
It was really a pleasure tospeak with you.
Brett Benner (40:42):
Thank you again, Brian, and if you've liked this
episode or other episodes thatyou've heard of behind the
Stack, please consider likingand subscribing so that you
never miss an episode.
Also, what would be incrediblyhelpful for me and for the
podcast is if you could.
Rate the show with five stars,and if you have the time to
(41:02):
write a review, all of thesethings are incredibly helpful to
put the podcast in the eyes ofother people who haven't seen it
or heard it before.
Thanks again everybody, and havea really lovely week.
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