March 4, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with Charlotte McConaghy to discuss her new book, 'Wild Dark Shore'. They talk about the island that inspired the fictional one from the novel, the way she visualizes her characters, the far reaching effects of climate change, and what it all affects beyond us.
Charlotte's website:
https://www.charlottemcconaghy.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macquarie_Island
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hello everybody, it's Brett Benner, and welcome
(00:02):
to another episode of.
Behind the stack.
I can't even believe we'realready into March, but we are
and March and April, for thoseof you readers out there it's
just insane.
It's insane how many books arebeing published in the next two
months.
I feel like we have effectivelya year's worth of books coming
out in the next two months, andit's crazy, crazy, crazy.
(00:25):
I wanted to highlight a coupleof them before we get into,
today's conversation.
Coming out today, March 4th isChloe Dalton's Raising Hare
which is a nonfiction book,which I read and it's just
fantastic.
Chloe Dalton, who is a Britishwriter and political advisor,
she, during the covid lockdown,was staying in a family home in
(00:50):
the English countryside, and sherescued a newborn hare and.
Against all good advice beginsto raise this hare and how it
changes her life and goingthrough the process and
following this hare through itslife.
It's really beautiful.
(01:10):
It's such a, tender and just alovely, lovely, lovely book.
So I would highly recommendthat.
Also, I know a lot of people arelooking forward to Dream Count,
By Chimamanda Ngozi Adichiewhich is her follow up.
Book to Americanah.
and it's been, actually been,it's been years since we've seen
(01:31):
another book from her.
It's basically about four womennavigating life during the
pandemic.
so that is out today as well.
I.
And then the one other book thatI wanted to talk about was
called Woodworking by Emily St.
James, which is about a transwoman who is a teacher who
discovers a kind of unlikelyally in another trans individual
(01:54):
who happens to be one of herstudents.
I'm reading it now.
It's really good.
It's incredibly engaging.
It's really funny.
So I would check that as well.
And of course all of these willbe on my bookshop.org page, so
please check that out.
Now a little bit about today'sauthor.
I am so thrilled to be sittingdown with Charlotte McConaghy,
(02:17):
who has written her latest book,Wild Dark Shore, which is also
out today.
A little bit about Charlotte.
She is the author of The NewYork Times Bestseller Once There
Were Wolves, which was thewinner of the indie book Award
for fiction in 2022, and it'scurrently being developed for
television.
Also, the InternationalBestseller Migrations, which was
a Time magazine Best Book of theyear and the amazon.com best
(02:41):
fiction book of the year for2020, which has been translated
into more than 20 languages andis being adapted for film.
She has both a graduate degreein screenwriting and a master's
degree in Screen Arts, and shelives in Sydney with her partner
and two children.
So I hope you enjoy this episodeof Behind the Stack.
(03:08):
I can't even tell you how happyI am to have Charlotte
McConaughey here, here today.
First of all, I read this bookearly enough that I feel like I
went crazy and I was like, Ihave to have you on.
I had to talk to you about this.
and then for other reasons thatI'll explain as we get into the
book, but, your new book, wild,dark Shore.
It is so fantastic.
(03:30):
It's just absolutely beautiful.
It's heartbreaking andbreathtaking.
So congratulations.
It's really, really, reallywonderful.
Charlotte McConaghy (03:40):
Thank you so much.
It's so nice to be here to chatwith you today.
Brett Benner (03:43):
So I, I'd love to ask you, first of all, do you
have, and I'm, I'm sure you'restarting to gear up for this.
Do do you have an elevator pitchfor the book?
Charlotte McConaghy (03:50):
I'll try.
I'll, I'll, let's give it a go.
Um.
So the book is about DominicSalt and his three children, who
are the caretakers of a verysmall remote island out, down
near Antarctica.
They're alone on this islandbecause it's become very
dangerous, and uninhabitable dueto rising sea levels.
so they're sort of packing up toleave, until a one night.
(04:13):
During a terrible storm, a womanwashes ashore and she's a very
mysterious figure.
She, they don't know why she'sthere or how she got there.
her name's Rowan.
She also starts to realize thatthe salts are keeping secrets
from her.
So it's a bit of, a bit of a,uh, I'd say a gothic romantic
mystery.
(04:33):
It explores, I think, um, theinterconnectedness of all living
things, but also looks at, howfar we are sort of willing to go
for the people we love.
Brett Benner (04:42):
Is it too punny to ask you?
Uh, what was the seed of thestory for you?
Charlotte McConaghy (04:48):
Not at all.
It's excellent.
Um, so it sort of started in, Iwould say there were two seeds.
Mm-hmm.
Um, the first, the very firstseed was, so this is a little,
nugget of story that finds itsway into the, into the book.
The youngest son Ollie tells thestories of seeds and one of them
(05:09):
is the story of the Wallay pine,which is an Australian, tree
that is extremely old.
It's ancient.
They, we call it the dinosaurtrees.
And for millions of years wethought it was extinct.
And then randomly, during thenineties, a someone just
stumbled across this secret,grove of them in a forest.
And it was really kind ofextraordinary because.
(05:33):
It was like they had come backto life straight out of the
dinosaur period.
And, it's been kept secret wherethey are.
You can't go and look at them.
They've, they've been, sort ofwithheld from the public to keep
them safe.
And then recently during thehorrific wildfires that we had
here.
The fires were approachingthese, you know, incredibly
precious, rare trees.
(05:54):
And it was all over the news atthe time.
these kind of amazing, emergencyfire, fighters, came down from
helicopters like they werewinched down into the forest and
had to set up this kind ofprotective perimeter to save
these trees from the fires.
This whole story was just kindof extraordinary to me, the idea
of how far we will go and whatare the things that we are
(06:17):
willing to save.
And so I sort of had this ideaof, um, I wanted to use that
somehow and I started to thinkabout, plants biodiversity.
And then I read the story of,the global seed vault in Falbo.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, which is set up, as aworld's kind of, the world's
backup for all the, the,humanities food sources.
(06:41):
All the seeds are up there incase we ever need them after
some terrible emergency.
but, and, and this, this vaultis meant to survive, you know?
Hundreds of years into thefuture to protect us.
But the one thing that theyhadn't kind of prepared for was
melting permafrost.
And the, the whole tunnel tothis vault started flooding.
(07:04):
And so that just kind of gave methis whole idea.
I really wanted to write about aseed vault that was flooding.
and I ended up deciding not to,to set the book on spell Bard,
because there was no way I wouldever be able to get there.
It was right when co in themiddle of Covid or this idea was
happening.
Um, so I needed to figure outwhere I could put it.
(07:25):
And then I discovered this,well, I had known about
Macquarie Island for a while,but I, I looked into it and it
was just kind of perfect.
All of a sudden, there's thisincredible island down, halfway
between Tasmania and Antarctica,and it's an extraordinary place.
And so I decided to base myisland on Macquarie.
I fictionalized it because Ineeded to put the seed vault
(07:47):
there.
And yeah, it kind of just wentfrom there.
Brett Benner (07:50):
And, and didn't you, um, in terms of research,
didn't you go for a while withyour family to Macquarie Island?
Charlotte McConaghy (07:55):
can you talk
Brett Benner (07:56):
a little bit about that and also if, if you can
explain for our listeners andviewers.
I did a deep dive on it when Iwas researching this and also
just when I finished the book,but if you could just talk about
that and the diversity of kindof the mammals of the birds on
the island, that would beawesome.
Charlotte McConaghy (08:10):
Yeah, sure.
So, yes.
So my partner and I, well, Irealized I was writing this book
and it was just, I wasstruggling because I really
needed to, to see it.
I needed to experience thisisland.
And so we looked, I looked intoit and it was, there was one
boat that was headed there.
Um, at the end of the year itwas, you get one opportunity to
(08:33):
go.
And so even though we had a1-year-old at the time, I knew
this would be our, my onlychance to go before the book was
due.
So we just decided to go for it.
I contacted the, um, the boatand asked them if it was.
Within the realm of possibilityto take a baby on what could be
(08:54):
potentially a very perilousjourney.
And they said they'd never doneit before, but if I was willing
to do it, then they were willingto do it.
Wow.
And so it was, it was genuinelyterrifying.
I, I wandered many times if Iwas, you know, making a terrible
mistake in taking him down therebecause it's, you know, it's
(09:15):
very remote and there's no.
Get home.
You can't just leave the boat.
Um, if things go awry, if it wastruly terrible, we could
potentially get a helicopterdown there to evacuate us out.
But you know.
That's a big deal anyway.
It's not like
Brett Benner (09:32):
an Uber.
Charlotte McConaghy (09:33):
No, absolutely not.
Um, luckily everything wentwonderfully.
There was no, there was nodramas.
It was amazing weather.
We had an incredible time.
Macquarie is.
Truly like nowhere else on thisplanet, I, I will never see
anything like it again.
You step off onto black sand andthere are elephant seals.
(09:58):
Next to your feet.
There's penguins that waddle upto say hello.
There's, there was a giant,petrell that kind of like flew
down over our heads and thenlanded in the ocean right next
to us.
There's albatross flying around.
It's, it's just an incredibleplace.
It's full of, just really kindof untouched wildlife.
(10:20):
But the thing about, Macquarieis that in fact, it almost was
completely destroyed by, the oiltrade back in the 18 hundreds.
So it has a really kind of, verysad, grim history, of oil
exploitation.
And they nearly wiped out thewhole seal population, most of
the penguins.
And so you can actually sort offeel that when you, when you go
(10:42):
onto the island, it's, it's.
Incredibly beautiful, but italso has this feeling of being
very haunted.
and that's something that Iwould not have known had I not
gone there and taken the effortto go there.
And so that kind of really endedup, inspiring the feel of the
novel.
Brett Benner (10:59):
Wow.
Where did you guys stay?
Like where did they house youwhen you went?
Charlotte McConaghy (11:05):
So you can't stay on the island, you
have to stay on the boat and youjust do.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
You, because it's not, it'scompletely uninhabited except
for one, there's a science base.
Um, and so there's only about 20people on the base, I believe,
at a time.
Um, and they were completelyclosed to us because of Covid.
They couldn't have any outside.
(11:25):
People coming to, to sort of seethem, they had to protect their,
their little tiny population.
So we were just there.
and you can only kind of go fora few days.
Like they don't allow sort oflong, long visits.
And you've gotta be reallycareful about, you can't take
anything onto the island.
You've gotta scrub your bootsbefore and after, so you're not
bringing on any kind of,contaminants to the environment.
(11:47):
Wow.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (11:48):
And so, okay, so then you had your place, you had
your idea, and then how did youbuild the idea for, uh, well for
starters, this family, what wasyour impetus with them?
I mean, let's like, talk aboutthem really quick.
You know, we talked aboutDominic and the, he, his, he's
widowed.
Yes.
Um, which we know at the start.
And he has three children Orlywho you've spoken about already
(12:09):
is the youngest who's verybookish and, um, kind of
obsessed with seeds and thetrees and the whole wildlife.
And then there's Fen, who's themiddle child, 17, and she's.
At least the start of this.
Really The only girl on theisland.
Yep.
And then there's raf, is thathow we pronounce his name?
Charlotte McConaghy (12:31):
Yeah, RAF the
Brett Benner (12:32):
oldest.
Yeah.
And so I wondered two things,like how did you start to
construct this family?
And I also wondered, in regardsto these three kids.
Was there something specificthat you wanted these three kids
to be representative of in yourwriting or a greater role?
I mean, Orly clearly has a verydistinct role in the book, but I
(12:55):
wasn't sure about the other two.
Charlotte McConaghy (12:56):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
Um, yeah, so, so Raf I think is,look, the, I think the idea
about this family is that theywere.
There are family who are kind ofdeeply wounded by the loss of
their mother.
They all carry that loss indifferent ways.
They're, you know, they havedifferent kind of levels of
trauma around it.
But they are all certainly kindof clinging to this memory of
(13:18):
her.
Dominic is, I mean, he, heliterally sees her ghost.
He's haunted by.
Because of the, the way in whichshe died.
He has a lot of unresolvedtrauma around that.
Um.
Raf I think really holds on hismother as well.
He's got a lot of rage, that hedoesn't really know how to
(13:42):
manage.
He just punches a punching bag'cause it's what his dad's told
him to do.
He hasn't been taught how tokind of express his emotions or
his feelings.
He's got other losses too, thathave, that are more recent on
the, on the island and.
I really, I really loved for himthat he is naturally very gifted
with music, so he loves, to playthe violin and specifically
(14:06):
loves trying to make whale songout of the violin.
So that's kind of a reallycreative outlet for him.
He goes out looking for whalesand to try and record the whale
song.
And then, yeah, as you said,there's Fen who's also
struggling with being, a youngwoman who's trying to become
herself on this very isolatedisland with no, nobody, her own
(14:29):
age.
She actually now lives with theseals.
She's left the lighthouse thather family stay in, and she
goes, and she, she spends a lotof time down on the beach with
the seals.
She kind of loves being in thewater, and I think that's also a
bit of a response to.
Particular traumas and woundsthat she's carrying, um, fears
in terms of what they represent.
(14:50):
I don't know.
I, I wanted them to be a familythat think deep down beneath all
the kind of struggles that theyhave, they needed to be deeply
loving and bonded with eachother.
I, I, I really wanted them tobe.
A family who just kind of adoreeach other, um mm-hmm.
And, and, and needed to kind ofgrapple with their differences
(15:15):
beyond that as a starting place.
But, you know, really strugglingwith being, not being able to
communicate and not knowing howto kind of manage their various.
Traumas and wounds, um, with a,with a father who doesn't know
how to talk about anything.
Um, so Rowan's really a catalystfor them.
I like to map them all out, youknow, I, I have pictures of them
(15:38):
and I try to think about, um,how they kind of fit into a, a
bigger picture and how they kindof will work together and what
they'll bring to the story andwhat dynamic they might bring.
Brett Benner (15:49):
And when you said pictures, do you have
visualizations of each of themand what you think they would
look like?
Charlotte McConaghy (15:53):
Yeah.
I like to choose faces, actorsthat I think might be, um, might
kind of have the essence.
It's, it's when I can kind ofimagine them with bodies as
people.
Yes.
Sometimes it brings little,little textural details that you
wouldn't otherwise be able tocome up with.
A
Brett Benner (16:12):
hundred percent.
Charlotte McConaghy (16:13):
Yeah.
I
Brett Benner (16:14):
think it's interesting too, as a reader
sometimes, because you readthese characters and you have
ideas of these characters.
Sometimes I'll read and it's sodescriptive, and this was one of
these circumstances, I can'talways get the face necessarily.
Isn't that interesting?
I never seen, but I could get.
Yeah.
But I get the rest of it.
I get the body, I get the way itmoves.
(16:35):
I hear that voice and I have totell you that I, um, I happen to
listen to this as well.
And first of all, I.
It's an incredibly d well donebook on tape.
Have you heard it at all?
Charlotte McConaghy (16:49):
Um, I've heard little bits of it.
I haven't sat and listened tothe whole thing'cause I feel too
embarrassed.
Brett Benner (16:56):
Really?
Charlotte McConaghy (16:57):
Not by them.
They're amazing.
Yes.
Amazing.
But by my, my own writing, I,there's something about it that
I.
Find a little bit freaky.
Brett Benner (17:06):
That's interesting.
So beyond, are you someone that,you know, you'll do your
rewrites, you get your edits,you go through the process, but
once it's done, it's done andyou're like, put it away.
Charlotte McConaghy (17:14):
Yeah.
I mean, I'll ha I'll, I'll, I'msure I'll be reading out, you
know, bits of this many times tocome.
Um, but yeah, it will probablybe a little while before I'll be
able to pick it up and juststart reading because I live in
terror that I've like left insomething bad or like badly
written or I'll see a mistake or
Brett Benner (17:35):
Well, Anne Patchett talks about that when
she had, you know, she just putout this annotated version of,
bel Canto and a lot of it is hergoing through and saying like,
this was horrible.
Like, why did I write that?
Oh God, I
Charlotte McConaghy (17:47):
love that.
Brett Benner (17:48):
So I don't think you're alone, but it's also like
you hear a lot of actors will,will not watch the performance
once it's finished.
You know, they're in it, butthey'll ne like, I think it
would be.
Personally excruciating to sitthrough a premiere of a movie or
something.
I agree with all those people.
And sharing it, especially whenyou've been so vulnerable and
it's much Yeah.
Like writing you, you aresharing something and it's a
(18:09):
very vulnerable thing you'vedone and suddenly it's like, oh,
okay.
Yeah.
Charlotte McConaghy (18:13):
Yeah.
Whereas if you, if you give itenough time, like I can kind of
look back at migrations now andread it and.
Not that I've sat down and readthe whole thing, but I can kind
of, I pick up, you know, pagesof it and, and, and it's
separate enough from me now thatit doesn't even feel like me on
the page.
It's kind of an interestingexperience.
Brett Benner (18:32):
You get away from it enough.
Charlotte McConaghy (18:33):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (18:34):
It, it'll be interesting, I think for you one
day if your son chooses to read.
Your stuff and, and, and hisimpression.
But to tell you anyway, the, theaudio book is, is wonderful and
all of the readers actors arefantastic.
And there's a man named CooperMortlock who in particular, who
(18:54):
reads Dominic and it's soevocative and he does, it's
really great.
So anyway, it's reallywonderful.
So let's talk a little bit aboutRowan because first of all, I
loved all these characters, butI found her so, so interesting
and she, to me so much is theheart of this book.
Um, and like you've talked aboutearlier, in terms of being a
(19:14):
catalyst, and I think she's acatalyst for all of them.
Yeah.
In terms of what she opens up ineach of them.
So can you talk to about her alittle bit?
Charlotte McConaghy (19:23):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, I mean, that's exactlywhat I wanted her to be.
I, I sort of had this feelinglike there would, there's no
point to the story if shedoesn't come and change all of
their lives in some way, in, ina meaningful way.
Rowan is.
She's a very, I would say she'sa very, practical, capable,
handy person.
(19:43):
She's a builder by trade.
and in some ways I really likedkind of inverting the, I guess,
stereotypical, gender roles ofDominic and role, and I kind of
swapped them a little bit in,in, in some elements.
She's lived through a lot, Iguess, in her life, and she has
some kind of old wounds thatshe's trying to recover from,
(20:04):
and I think they inform how shesort of, um, relates to the
world.
Now.
She's been through, and this is,I don't think this is really a
spoiler.
She's, she's recently lost herhouse, to a fire.
This is a house that she spenther whole life building herself
with her own hands.
And so it's a, it's a profoundloss to her.
Um, and she's, it's sort of lefther feeling very jaded and
(20:29):
pessimistic about the world and,and what's to come.
And she's given up hoping foranything about anything.
She's very protective of herselfin terms of her relationships.
She decided a long time ago thatshe wouldn't, um, have children
because.
She doesn't wanna live in aworld where she may not be able
to keep them safe.
(20:50):
And I think that's a reallyheartbreaking decision that a
lot of people are thinking aboutthese days in terms of our
climate crisis and whether ornot we do bring children into
it.
So I, I sort of wanted her tobe, a voice for that concern.
While also taking her through ajourney of, I guess discovering
(21:12):
that at the end of the world,love should grow instead of
shrink.
And that, that kind of love canbe worth the risk.
Brett Benner (21:20):
Do you find yourself, uh, let me rephrase it
and say this, I imagined thatmuch of her mindset in certain
ways is Charlotte's mindset incertain ways in regards to
climate.
Is that true?
Charlotte McConaghy (21:36):
Yeah, I think she's probably the side of
me that's most pessimistic.
Um, I move between the twoversions of myself.
I move between feeling verydepressed about the whole thing
and like it is just all goingdownhill and then I kind of
swing back to, no, you know, weneed to have.
(21:57):
Purpose around this and we can'tgive up yet.
And, you know, feeling like ourresponsibility to the planet is,
that we need to live as well aswe can with, as, as, as positive
an impact as we can.
So thinking about how, what thatmeans for our life choices,
definitely I think about thosethings for sure.
I, I do have children though, I,I, that, that one for me is, was
(22:18):
not.
Not negotiable.
I've always known yeah, to havechildren.
But I, it concerns me the, allthese things that Rowan thinks
about.
You know, I, I, I think aboutthose things too.
I think about what, whatchildren mean to the planet and
what, what dangers the planetwill, you know, inflict on my
kids and how I'm gonna kind ofprepare them for that and what I
(22:40):
need to teach them about.
Loss and impermanence and how,how do we talk to these kids
about this?
Brett Benner (22:46):
Yeah.
And, and we're experiencing somuch of this in this
accelerating real time.
Charlotte McConaghy (22:53):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (22:53):
you know, I, I was reading this while the fires in
Los Angeles happened.
I was driving from LA with mydaughter.
We were going to the desert toget out of Los Angeles.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it wasn't that our home in particular was
in direct line with where thefires were headed, but however
(23:16):
it was so smoky and the kind ofeverything that was happening,
and you've been through that.
And so I did wanna read this.
One really quick passage becauseit's talking about what you've
already brought up with, Rowanlosing her home.
But it, so, uh, affected mebecause you captured something.
So, beautifully.
(23:37):
That I think is hard to really,convey to people the magnitude
of it.
But, she says here, I cry forthe forest, for the trees and
the shrubs, and for all wholived within it.
So many species, so manycreatures.
I'd come down here to look foreach day and delight in the
glimpses I caught.
I cry for my life here in thislittle patch of paradise for the
(23:58):
safety I felt for the woman Iwas while living here.
I fed the mag pies each eveningin the spot.
I waited for the passage ofmother Wombat and her baby
amling.
Slowly by.
Her burrow was here somewhere.
I stopped crying and stand lookunsure why I would do this to
myself, and he remains.
I made fine, will only make itworse.
But I lift the sheet of tin andrested against the burned husk
(24:21):
of a tree.
I can see the opening of theburrow and the earth.
I get down on my knees, thenonto my stomach, pressing my
whole body flat into the.
It just that image and thatwhole scene reminded me so much
of watching these people showingback up to their, what was left
(24:41):
of their homes and theirneighborhoods.
And you know, I had a very dearfriend who texted me that second
morning and said, you know.
We lost everything.
Mm-hmm.
This was the house that I raisedour children in.
This was the home.
This was where our school was,that we walked our children to
school every day, and the parkthat they played in every
(25:02):
afternoon and.
She finished it with we'll moveon and, and it's also a
testament in this book.
It does too, because I think itall speaks to perseverance in
the face of this incredibleadversity that we're all
entering into now.
Charlotte McConaghy (25:21):
Yeah, that's right.
Oh, it's so heartbreaking, isn'tit?
But it is.
It's about, yeah, we just kindof have to keep going.
We've, there's no, there's noother choice.
Now it's, everything will startto get harder and yeah, we're
gonna have to teach our kids howto keep going.
Brett Benner (25:36):
Yeah.
And I do have the one thing, Ido have faith despite what's
happening in the US right now,which is so unreal.
But you know, if we've learnedanything, progress does move
forward.
And I just hope that too manythings don't continue to spiral
out of control.
Because before we can get, somesort of righting of the ship and
(25:57):
ahead of it because too many ofus now know what's happening and
see it.
And see it firsthand.
Charlotte McConaghy (26:05):
Yeah.
And the danger with exactly,with going too far down the
wrong path is that it becomestoo emotionally difficult for us
to figure out how to steer backthe other way.
And more and more of us willstart to give up.
Brett Benner (26:19):
That's a hundred percent.
With all of your books, there isa very big kind of, ecological
connection or very much aconnection with animals and
there many times what'shappening to them as a result of
us.
Charlotte McConaghy (26:37):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (26:38):
That's something that's obviously very important
to you.
Charlotte McConaghy (26:40):
Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
I just, I don't know, I justfeel incredibly sad when I think
about the impact we're having onthe other creatures on this
planet.
and I think a lot of the,rhetoric around climate change
and, and.
Sort of slowing it down tends tobe about how we are gonna save
ourselves.
Mm-hmm.
And I just, I don't know.
(27:02):
I suppose with my books, I, Ilike to try and decenter people
a little bit and, and try to,really look at what, what impact
this is having on wildlife.
And, you know, plant life is bigin Wild Duck shore as well.
Just for their own sakes, ratherthan, you know, only a big idea
(27:24):
about this book is what would wetry and save if we had the
chance?
Would it only be things thatcould feed us and that would
benefit us, or would we try toprioritize things that exist for
their own sake?
I don't know what the answerwould be.
I know there's a lot of peopleout there fighting for
biodiversity because, you know,everything is incredibly
interconnected.
So it all does matter, but justpurely for its own sake.
(27:49):
I, I, I like to think that wewould make a choice to save, you
know, what we don't need.
Brett Benner (27:54):
going back to the three kids in this book I was
talking to with someone and Isaid, they're remarkably well
adjusted for everything thatthey're facing and the
incredible amounts of grief andthe incredible isolation and the
incredible sense of loneliness.
But they really do.
Like I I, I really got throughit and I was like.
I'm shocked that one of them isnot a serial killer after all
this.
Charlotte McConaghy (28:14):
Are they kind of miraculous in that way,
aren't they?
Brett Benner (28:17):
Well, they are, but I also think it's like what
you're talking about.
It's really a testament to thefamily and to each other.
Um, even, even separate fromDominic, they're finding a way
to survive.
And that gave me hope too,because I thought, here's a very
good example of.
(28:37):
You know, pushed to extremecircumstances, they really are
coming together.
Charlotte McConaghy (28:41):
Yeah.
That's the thing.
And I think also there'ssomething about having to
nurture somebody who's morevulnerable than you.
So for them, well, for, for Rafand fan and Dom, it's, it's
having to raise this little boy.
They bring him with them whenhe's one.
So they've got a baby on thisisland that they have to look
(29:03):
after and they have to bandtogether to do it.
And I, I think there issomething to be said for looking
after something other thanyourself, asking you to step up
and just be okay within yourselffor that little boy, you know,
for four children.
And that's what you have to doas parents.
You've gotta be okay for your,for your kids.
Brett Benner (29:24):
coming back to.
Climate change.
Do you feel at all optimistic, Imean, even writing these
stories, do you feel optimisticand you, you have children over
your own in terms of reconcilingfor this future?
Charlotte McConaghy (29:34):
Um, yeah, I do.
I have to work hard at feelingoptimistic.
And I don't know if it's.
About that anymore?
For me, I think it's more aboutjust getting on with it.
Yeah.
Regardless of how I feel, wehave to still be purposeful, you
know, about what we're doing andwe have to still make an effort.
(29:54):
I think that's the main thing.
And so hope helps with thatbecause it can give us energy,
it gives us enough energy tokind of be.
Galvanized for the fight, but,I'd be lying if I said I felt it
all the time.
I, I do, I swing between, youknow, emotions a lot.
but I will keep, trying and I'llkeep doing the best that I can.
(30:14):
Um, because it's not just aboutus, it's about all the
generations to come and it'sabout all our wild creatures and
places That's right.
That we haven't yet lost.
We kind of don't have the luxuryof giving up, of just, you know,
losing hope.
I don't, I don't think we've gotthat luxury.
Brett Benner (30:31):
Yeah, I, I completely agree with you.
Well, Charlotte, thank you somuch for sitting down with me
today.
This was just terrific.
as I said before, I think thebook is just fantastic.
Wild, dark Shore.
Get it, buy Independent if youcan.
It's truly a terrific book.
So congratulations.
(30:52):
And of course this will also beup on my bookshop.org page,
along with Charlotte's otherbooks, so you can check them all
out there.
but thanks again for joining me.
Hello everybody, it's Brett Benner, and welcome
(00:02):
to another episode of.
Behind the stack.
I can't even believe we'realready into March, but we are
and March and April, for thoseof you readers out there it's
just insane.
It's insane how many books arebeing published in the next two
months.
I feel like we have effectivelya year's worth of books coming
out in the next two months, andit's crazy, crazy, crazy.
(00:25):
I wanted to highlight a coupleof them before we get into,
today's conversation.
Coming out today, March 4th isChloe Dalton's Raising Hare
which is a nonfiction book,which I read and it's just
fantastic.
Chloe Dalton, who is a Britishwriter and political advisor,
she, during the covid lockdown,was staying in a family home in
(00:50):
the English countryside, and sherescued a newborn hare and.
Against all good advice beginsto raise this hare and how it
changes her life and goingthrough the process and
following this hare through itslife.
It's really beautiful.
(01:10):
It's such a, tender and just alovely, lovely, lovely book.
So I would highly recommendthat.
Also, I know a lot of people arelooking forward to Dream Count,
By Chimamanda Ngozi Adichiewhich is her follow up.
Book to Americanah.
and it's been, actually been,it's been years since we've seen
(01:31):
another book from her.
It's basically about four womennavigating life during the
pandemic.
so that is out today as well.
I.
And then the one other book thatI wanted to talk about was
called Woodworking by Emily St.
James, which is about a transwoman who is a teacher who
discovers a kind of unlikelyally in another trans individual
(01:54):
who happens to be one of herstudents.
I'm reading it now.
It's really good.
It's incredibly engaging.
It's really funny.
So I would check that as well.
And of course all of these willbe on my bookshop.org page, so
please check that out.
Now a little bit about today'sauthor.
I am so thrilled to be sittingdown with Charlotte McConaghy,
(02:17):
who has written her latest book,Wild Dark Shore, which is also
out today.
A little bit about Charlotte.
She is the author of The NewYork Times Bestseller Once There
Were Wolves, which was thewinner of the indie book Award
for fiction in 2022, and it'scurrently being developed for
television.
Also, the InternationalBestseller Migrations, which was
a Time magazine Best Book of theyear and the amazon.com best
(02:41):
fiction book of the year for2020, which has been translated
into more than 20 languages andis being adapted for film.
She has both a graduate degreein screenwriting and a master's
degree in Screen Arts, and shelives in Sydney with her partner
and two children.
So I hope you enjoy this episodeof Behind the Stack.
(03:08):
I can't even tell you how happyI am to have Charlotte
McConaughey here, here today.
First of all, I read this bookearly enough that I feel like I
went crazy and I was like, Ihave to have you on.
I had to talk to you about this.
and then for other reasons thatI'll explain as we get into the
book, but, your new book, wild,dark Shore.
It is so fantastic.
(03:30):
It's just absolutely beautiful.
It's heartbreaking andbreathtaking.
So congratulations.
It's really, really, reallywonderful.
Charlotte McConaghy (03:40):
Thank you so much.
It's so nice to be here to chatwith you today.
Brett Benner (03:43):
So I, I'd love to ask you, first of all, do you
have, and I'm, I'm sure you'restarting to gear up for this.
Do do you have an elevator pitchfor the book?
Charlotte McConaghy (03:50):
I'll try.
I'll, I'll, let's give it a go.
Um.
So the book is about DominicSalt and his three children, who
are the caretakers of a verysmall remote island out, down
near Antarctica.
They're alone on this islandbecause it's become very
dangerous, and uninhabitable dueto rising sea levels.
so they're sort of packing up toleave, until a one night.
(04:13):
During a terrible storm, a womanwashes ashore and she's a very
mysterious figure.
She, they don't know why she'sthere or how she got there.
her name's Rowan.
She also starts to realize thatthe salts are keeping secrets
from her.
So it's a bit of, a bit of a,uh, I'd say a gothic romantic
mystery.
(04:33):
It explores, I think, um, theinterconnectedness of all living
things, but also looks at, howfar we are sort of willing to go
for the people we love.
Brett Benner (04:42):
Is it too punny to ask you?
Uh, what was the seed of thestory for you?
Charlotte McConaghy (04:48):
Not at all.
It's excellent.
Um, so it sort of started in, Iwould say there were two seeds.
Mm-hmm.
Um, the first, the very firstseed was, so this is a little,
nugget of story that finds itsway into the, into the book.
The youngest son Ollie tells thestories of seeds and one of them
(05:09):
is the story of the Wallay pine,which is an Australian, tree
that is extremely old.
It's ancient.
They, we call it the dinosaurtrees.
And for millions of years wethought it was extinct.
And then randomly, during thenineties, a someone just
stumbled across this secret,grove of them in a forest.
And it was really kind ofextraordinary because.
(05:33):
It was like they had come backto life straight out of the
dinosaur period.
And, it's been kept secret wherethey are.
You can't go and look at them.
They've, they've been, sort ofwithheld from the public to keep
them safe.
And then recently during thehorrific wildfires that we had
here.
The fires were approachingthese, you know, incredibly
precious, rare trees.
(05:54):
And it was all over the news atthe time.
these kind of amazing, emergencyfire, fighters, came down from
helicopters like they werewinched down into the forest and
had to set up this kind ofprotective perimeter to save
these trees from the fires.
This whole story was just kindof extraordinary to me, the idea
of how far we will go and whatare the things that we are
(06:17):
willing to save.
And so I sort of had this ideaof, um, I wanted to use that
somehow and I started to thinkabout, plants biodiversity.
And then I read the story of,the global seed vault in Falbo.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, which is set up, as aworld's kind of, the world's
backup for all the, the,humanities food sources.
(06:41):
All the seeds are up there incase we ever need them after
some terrible emergency.
but, and, and this, this vaultis meant to survive, you know?
Hundreds of years into thefuture to protect us.
But the one thing that theyhadn't kind of prepared for was
melting permafrost.
And the, the whole tunnel tothis vault started flooding.
(07:04):
And so that just kind of gave methis whole idea.
I really wanted to write about aseed vault that was flooding.
and I ended up deciding not to,to set the book on spell Bard,
because there was no way I wouldever be able to get there.
It was right when co in themiddle of Covid or this idea was
happening.
Um, so I needed to figure outwhere I could put it.
(07:25):
And then I discovered this,well, I had known about
Macquarie Island for a while,but I, I looked into it and it
was just kind of perfect.
All of a sudden, there's thisincredible island down, halfway
between Tasmania and Antarctica,and it's an extraordinary place.
And so I decided to base myisland on Macquarie.
I fictionalized it because Ineeded to put the seed vault
(07:47):
there.
And yeah, it kind of just wentfrom there.
Brett Benner (07:50):
And, and didn't you, um, in terms of research,
didn't you go for a while withyour family to Macquarie Island?
Charlotte McConaghy (07:55):
can you talk
Brett Benner (07:56):
a little bit about that and also if, if you can
explain for our listeners andviewers.
I did a deep dive on it when Iwas researching this and also
just when I finished the book,but if you could just talk about
that and the diversity of kindof the mammals of the birds on
the island, that would beawesome.
Charlotte McConaghy (08:10):
Yeah, sure.
So, yes.
So my partner and I, well, Irealized I was writing this book
and it was just, I wasstruggling because I really
needed to, to see it.
I needed to experience thisisland.
And so we looked, I looked intoit and it was, there was one
boat that was headed there.
Um, at the end of the year itwas, you get one opportunity to
(08:33):
go.
And so even though we had a1-year-old at the time, I knew
this would be our, my onlychance to go before the book was
due.
So we just decided to go for it.
I contacted the, um, the boatand asked them if it was.
Within the realm of possibilityto take a baby on what could be
(08:54):
potentially a very perilousjourney.
And they said they'd never doneit before, but if I was willing
to do it, then they were willingto do it.
Wow.
And so it was, it was genuinelyterrifying.
I, I wandered many times if Iwas, you know, making a terrible
mistake in taking him down therebecause it's, you know, it's
(09:15):
very remote and there's no.
Get home.
You can't just leave the boat.
Um, if things go awry, if it wastruly terrible, we could
potentially get a helicopterdown there to evacuate us out.
But you know.
That's a big deal anyway.
It's not like
Brett Benner (09:32):
an Uber.
Charlotte McConaghy (09:33):
No, absolutely not.
Um, luckily everything wentwonderfully.
There was no, there was nodramas.
It was amazing weather.
We had an incredible time.
Macquarie is.
Truly like nowhere else on thisplanet, I, I will never see
anything like it again.
You step off onto black sand andthere are elephant seals.
(09:58):
Next to your feet.
There's penguins that waddle upto say hello.
There's, there was a giant,petrell that kind of like flew
down over our heads and thenlanded in the ocean right next
to us.
There's albatross flying around.
It's, it's just an incredibleplace.
It's full of, just really kindof untouched wildlife.
(10:20):
But the thing about, Macquarieis that in fact, it almost was
completely destroyed by, the oiltrade back in the 18 hundreds.
So it has a really kind of, verysad, grim history, of oil
exploitation.
And they nearly wiped out thewhole seal population, most of
the penguins.
And so you can actually sort offeel that when you, when you go
(10:42):
onto the island, it's, it's.
Incredibly beautiful, but italso has this feeling of being
very haunted.
and that's something that Iwould not have known had I not
gone there and taken the effortto go there.
And so that kind of really endedup, inspiring the feel of the
novel.
Brett Benner (10:59):
Wow.
Where did you guys stay?
Like where did they house youwhen you went?
Charlotte McConaghy (11:05):
So you can't stay on the island, you
have to stay on the boat and youjust do.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
You, because it's not, it'scompletely uninhabited except
for one, there's a science base.
Um, and so there's only about 20people on the base, I believe,
at a time.
Um, and they were completelyclosed to us because of Covid.
They couldn't have any outside.
(11:25):
People coming to, to sort of seethem, they had to protect their,
their little tiny population.
So we were just there.
and you can only kind of go fora few days.
Like they don't allow sort oflong, long visits.
And you've gotta be reallycareful about, you can't take
anything onto the island.
You've gotta scrub your bootsbefore and after, so you're not
bringing on any kind of,contaminants to the environment.
(11:47):
Wow.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (11:48):
And so, okay, so then you had your place, you had
your idea, and then how did youbuild the idea for, uh, well for
starters, this family, what wasyour impetus with them?
I mean, let's like, talk aboutthem really quick.
You know, we talked aboutDominic and the, he, his, he's
widowed.
Yes.
Um, which we know at the start.
And he has three children Orlywho you've spoken about already
(12:09):
is the youngest who's verybookish and, um, kind of
obsessed with seeds and thetrees and the whole wildlife.
And then there's Fen, who's themiddle child, 17, and she's.
At least the start of this.
Really The only girl on theisland.
Yep.
And then there's raf, is thathow we pronounce his name?
Charlotte McConaghy (12:31):
Yeah, RAF the
Brett Benner (12:32):
oldest.
Yeah.
And so I wondered two things,like how did you start to
construct this family?
And I also wondered, in regardsto these three kids.
Was there something specificthat you wanted these three kids
to be representative of in yourwriting or a greater role?
I mean, Orly clearly has a verydistinct role in the book, but I
(12:55):
wasn't sure about the other two.
Charlotte McConaghy (12:56):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
Um, yeah, so, so Raf I think is,look, the, I think the idea
about this family is that theywere.
There are family who are kind ofdeeply wounded by the loss of
their mother.
They all carry that loss indifferent ways.
They're, you know, they havedifferent kind of levels of
trauma around it.
But they are all certainly kindof clinging to this memory of
(13:18):
her.
Dominic is, I mean, he, heliterally sees her ghost.
He's haunted by.
Because of the, the way in whichshe died.
He has a lot of unresolvedtrauma around that.
Um.
Raf I think really holds on hismother as well.
He's got a lot of rage, that hedoesn't really know how to
(13:42):
manage.
He just punches a punching bag'cause it's what his dad's told
him to do.
He hasn't been taught how tokind of express his emotions or
his feelings.
He's got other losses too, thathave, that are more recent on
the, on the island and.
I really, I really loved for himthat he is naturally very gifted
with music, so he loves, to playthe violin and specifically
(14:06):
loves trying to make whale songout of the violin.
So that's kind of a reallycreative outlet for him.
He goes out looking for whalesand to try and record the whale
song.
And then, yeah, as you said,there's Fen who's also
struggling with being, a youngwoman who's trying to become
herself on this very isolatedisland with no, nobody, her own
(14:29):
age.
She actually now lives with theseals.
She's left the lighthouse thather family stay in, and she
goes, and she, she spends a lotof time down on the beach with
the seals.
She kind of loves being in thewater, and I think that's also a
bit of a response to.
Particular traumas and woundsthat she's carrying, um, fears
in terms of what they represent.
(14:50):
I don't know.
I, I wanted them to be a familythat think deep down beneath all
the kind of struggles that theyhave, they needed to be deeply
loving and bonded with eachother.
I, I, I really wanted them tobe.
A family who just kind of adoreeach other, um mm-hmm.
And, and, and needed to kind ofgrapple with their differences
(15:15):
beyond that as a starting place.
But, you know, really strugglingwith being, not being able to
communicate and not knowing howto kind of manage their various.
Traumas and wounds, um, with a,with a father who doesn't know
how to talk about anything.
Um, so Rowan's really a catalystfor them.
I like to map them all out, youknow, I, I have pictures of them
(15:38):
and I try to think about, um,how they kind of fit into a, a
bigger picture and how they kindof will work together and what
they'll bring to the story andwhat dynamic they might bring.
Brett Benner (15:49):
And when you said pictures, do you have
visualizations of each of themand what you think they would
look like?
Charlotte McConaghy (15:53):
Yeah.
I like to choose faces, actorsthat I think might be, um, might
kind of have the essence.
It's, it's when I can kind ofimagine them with bodies as
people.
Yes.
Sometimes it brings little,little textural details that you
wouldn't otherwise be able tocome up with.
A
Brett Benner (16:12):
hundred percent.
Charlotte McConaghy (16:13):
Yeah.
I
Brett Benner (16:14):
think it's interesting too, as a reader
sometimes, because you readthese characters and you have
ideas of these characters.
Sometimes I'll read and it's sodescriptive, and this was one of
these circumstances, I can'talways get the face necessarily.
Isn't that interesting?
I never seen, but I could get.
Yeah.
But I get the rest of it.
I get the body, I get the way itmoves.
(16:35):
I hear that voice and I have totell you that I, um, I happen to
listen to this as well.
And first of all, I.
It's an incredibly d well donebook on tape.
Have you heard it at all?
Charlotte McConaghy (16:49):
Um, I've heard little bits of it.
I haven't sat and listened tothe whole thing'cause I feel too
embarrassed.
Brett Benner (16:56):
Really?
Charlotte McConaghy (16:57):
Not by them.
They're amazing.
Yes.
Amazing.
But by my, my own writing, I,there's something about it that
I.
Find a little bit freaky.
Brett Benner (17:06):
That's interesting.
So beyond, are you someone that,you know, you'll do your
rewrites, you get your edits,you go through the process, but
once it's done, it's done andyou're like, put it away.
Charlotte McConaghy (17:14):
Yeah.
I mean, I'll ha I'll, I'll, I'msure I'll be reading out, you
know, bits of this many times tocome.
Um, but yeah, it will probablybe a little while before I'll be
able to pick it up and juststart reading because I live in
terror that I've like left insomething bad or like badly
written or I'll see a mistake or
Brett Benner (17:35):
Well, Anne Patchett talks about that when
she had, you know, she just putout this annotated version of,
bel Canto and a lot of it is hergoing through and saying like,
this was horrible.
Like, why did I write that?
Oh God, I
Charlotte McConaghy (17:47):
love that.
Brett Benner (17:48):
So I don't think you're alone, but it's also like
you hear a lot of actors will,will not watch the performance
once it's finished.
You know, they're in it, butthey'll ne like, I think it
would be.
Personally excruciating to sitthrough a premiere of a movie or
something.
I agree with all those people.
And sharing it, especially whenyou've been so vulnerable and
it's much Yeah.
Like writing you, you aresharing something and it's a
(18:09):
very vulnerable thing you'vedone and suddenly it's like, oh,
okay.
Yeah.
Charlotte McConaghy (18:13):
Yeah.
Whereas if you, if you give itenough time, like I can kind of
look back at migrations now andread it and.
Not that I've sat down and readthe whole thing, but I can kind
of, I pick up, you know, pagesof it and, and, and it's
separate enough from me now thatit doesn't even feel like me on
the page.
It's kind of an interestingexperience.
Brett Benner (18:32):
You get away from it enough.
Charlotte McConaghy (18:33):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (18:34):
It, it'll be interesting, I think for you one
day if your son chooses to read.
Your stuff and, and, and hisimpression.
But to tell you anyway, the, theaudio book is, is wonderful and
all of the readers actors arefantastic.
And there's a man named CooperMortlock who in particular, who
(18:54):
reads Dominic and it's soevocative and he does, it's
really great.
So anyway, it's reallywonderful.
So let's talk a little bit aboutRowan because first of all, I
loved all these characters, butI found her so, so interesting
and she, to me so much is theheart of this book.
Um, and like you've talked aboutearlier, in terms of being a
(19:14):
catalyst, and I think she's acatalyst for all of them.
Yeah.
In terms of what she opens up ineach of them.
So can you talk to about her alittle bit?
Charlotte McConaghy (19:23):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, I mean, that's exactlywhat I wanted her to be.
I, I sort of had this feelinglike there would, there's no
point to the story if shedoesn't come and change all of
their lives in some way, in, ina meaningful way.
Rowan is.
She's a very, I would say she'sa very, practical, capable,
handy person.
(19:43):
She's a builder by trade.
and in some ways I really likedkind of inverting the, I guess,
stereotypical, gender roles ofDominic and role, and I kind of
swapped them a little bit in,in, in some elements.
She's lived through a lot, Iguess, in her life, and she has
some kind of old wounds thatshe's trying to recover from,
(20:04):
and I think they inform how shesort of, um, relates to the
world.
Now.
She's been through, and this is,I don't think this is really a
spoiler.
She's, she's recently lost herhouse, to a fire.
This is a house that she spenther whole life building herself
with her own hands.
And so it's a, it's a profoundloss to her.
Um, and she's, it's sort of lefther feeling very jaded and
(20:29):
pessimistic about the world and,and what's to come.
And she's given up hoping foranything about anything.
She's very protective of herselfin terms of her relationships.
She decided a long time ago thatshe wouldn't, um, have children
because.
She doesn't wanna live in aworld where she may not be able
to keep them safe.
(20:50):
And I think that's a reallyheartbreaking decision that a
lot of people are thinking aboutthese days in terms of our
climate crisis and whether ornot we do bring children into
it.
So I, I sort of wanted her tobe, a voice for that concern.
While also taking her through ajourney of, I guess discovering
(21:12):
that at the end of the world,love should grow instead of
shrink.
And that, that kind of love canbe worth the risk.
Brett Benner (21:20):
Do you find yourself, uh, let me rephrase it
and say this, I imagined thatmuch of her mindset in certain
ways is Charlotte's mindset incertain ways in regards to
climate.
Is that true?
Charlotte McConaghy (21:36):
Yeah, I think she's probably the side of
me that's most pessimistic.
Um, I move between the twoversions of myself.
I move between feeling verydepressed about the whole thing
and like it is just all goingdownhill and then I kind of
swing back to, no, you know, weneed to have.
(21:57):
Purpose around this and we can'tgive up yet.
And, you know, feeling like ourresponsibility to the planet is,
that we need to live as well aswe can with, as, as, as positive
an impact as we can.
So thinking about how, what thatmeans for our life choices,
definitely I think about thosethings for sure.
I, I do have children though, I,I, that, that one for me is, was
(22:18):
not.
Not negotiable.
I've always known yeah, to havechildren.
But I, it concerns me the, allthese things that Rowan thinks
about.
You know, I, I, I think aboutthose things too.
I think about what, whatchildren mean to the planet and
what, what dangers the planetwill, you know, inflict on my
kids and how I'm gonna kind ofprepare them for that and what I
(22:40):
need to teach them about.
Loss and impermanence and how,how do we talk to these kids
about this?
Brett Benner (22:46):
Yeah.
And, and we're experiencing somuch of this in this
accelerating real time.
Charlotte McConaghy (22:53):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (22:53):
you know, I, I was reading this while the fires in
Los Angeles happened.
I was driving from LA with mydaughter.
We were going to the desert toget out of Los Angeles.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it wasn't that our home in particular was
in direct line with where thefires were headed, but however
(23:16):
it was so smoky and the kind ofeverything that was happening,
and you've been through that.
And so I did wanna read this.
One really quick passage becauseit's talking about what you've
already brought up with, Rowanlosing her home.
But it, so, uh, affected mebecause you captured something.
So, beautifully.
(23:37):
That I think is hard to really,convey to people the magnitude
of it.
But, she says here, I cry forthe forest, for the trees and
the shrubs, and for all wholived within it.
So many species, so manycreatures.
I'd come down here to look foreach day and delight in the
glimpses I caught.
I cry for my life here in thislittle patch of paradise for the
(23:58):
safety I felt for the woman Iwas while living here.
I fed the mag pies each eveningin the spot.
I waited for the passage ofmother Wombat and her baby
amling.
Slowly by.
Her burrow was here somewhere.
I stopped crying and stand lookunsure why I would do this to
myself, and he remains.
I made fine, will only make itworse.
But I lift the sheet of tin andrested against the burned husk
(24:21):
of a tree.
I can see the opening of theburrow and the earth.
I get down on my knees, thenonto my stomach, pressing my
whole body flat into the.
It just that image and thatwhole scene reminded me so much
of watching these people showingback up to their, what was left
(24:41):
of their homes and theirneighborhoods.
And you know, I had a very dearfriend who texted me that second
morning and said, you know.
We lost everything.
Mm-hmm.
This was the house that I raisedour children in.
This was the home.
This was where our school was,that we walked our children to
school every day, and the parkthat they played in every
(25:02):
afternoon and.
She finished it with we'll moveon and, and it's also a
testament in this book.
It does too, because I think itall speaks to perseverance in
the face of this incredibleadversity that we're all
entering into now.
Charlotte McConaghy (25:21):
Yeah, that's right.
Oh, it's so heartbreaking, isn'tit?
But it is.
It's about, yeah, we just kindof have to keep going.
We've, there's no, there's noother choice.
Now it's, everything will startto get harder and yeah, we're
gonna have to teach our kids howto keep going.
Brett Benner (25:36):
Yeah.
And I do have the one thing, Ido have faith despite what's
happening in the US right now,which is so unreal.
But you know, if we've learnedanything, progress does move
forward.
And I just hope that too manythings don't continue to spiral
out of control.
Because before we can get, somesort of righting of the ship and
(25:57):
ahead of it because too many ofus now know what's happening and
see it.
And see it firsthand.
Charlotte McConaghy (26:05):
Yeah.
And the danger with exactly,with going too far down the
wrong path is that it becomestoo emotionally difficult for us
to figure out how to steer backthe other way.
And more and more of us willstart to give up.
Brett Benner (26:19):
That's a hundred percent.
With all of your books, there isa very big kind of, ecological
connection or very much aconnection with animals and
there many times what'shappening to them as a result of
us.
Charlotte McConaghy (26:37):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (26:38):
That's something that's obviously very important
to you.
Charlotte McConaghy (26:40):
Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
I just, I don't know, I justfeel incredibly sad when I think
about the impact we're having onthe other creatures on this
planet.
and I think a lot of the,rhetoric around climate change
and, and.
Sort of slowing it down tends tobe about how we are gonna save
ourselves.
Mm-hmm.
And I just, I don't know.
(27:02):
I suppose with my books, I, Ilike to try and decenter people
a little bit and, and try to,really look at what, what impact
this is having on wildlife.
And, you know, plant life is bigin Wild Duck shore as well.
Just for their own sakes, ratherthan, you know, only a big idea
(27:24):
about this book is what would wetry and save if we had the
chance?
Would it only be things thatcould feed us and that would
benefit us, or would we try toprioritize things that exist for
their own sake?
I don't know what the answerwould be.
I know there's a lot of peopleout there fighting for
biodiversity because, you know,everything is incredibly
interconnected.
So it all does matter, but justpurely for its own sake.
(27:49):
I, I, I like to think that wewould make a choice to save, you
know, what we don't need.
Brett Benner (27:54):
going back to the three kids in this book I was
talking to with someone and Isaid, they're remarkably well
adjusted for everything thatthey're facing and the
incredible amounts of grief andthe incredible isolation and the
incredible sense of loneliness.
But they really do.
Like I I, I really got throughit and I was like.
I'm shocked that one of them isnot a serial killer after all
this.
Charlotte McConaghy (28:14):
Are they kind of miraculous in that way,
aren't they?
Brett Benner (28:17):
Well, they are, but I also think it's like what
you're talking about.
It's really a testament to thefamily and to each other.
Um, even, even separate fromDominic, they're finding a way
to survive.
And that gave me hope too,because I thought, here's a very
good example of.
(28:37):
You know, pushed to extremecircumstances, they really are
coming together.
Charlotte McConaghy (28:41):
Yeah.
That's the thing.
And I think also there'ssomething about having to
nurture somebody who's morevulnerable than you.
So for them, well, for, for Rafand fan and Dom, it's, it's
having to raise this little boy.
They bring him with them whenhe's one.
So they've got a baby on thisisland that they have to look
(29:03):
after and they have to bandtogether to do it.
And I, I think there issomething to be said for looking
after something other thanyourself, asking you to step up
and just be okay within yourselffor that little boy, you know,
for four children.
And that's what you have to doas parents.
You've gotta be okay for your,for your kids.
Brett Benner (29:24):
coming back to.
Climate change.
Do you feel at all optimistic, Imean, even writing these
stories, do you feel optimisticand you, you have children over
your own in terms of reconcilingfor this future?
Charlotte McConaghy (29:34):
Um, yeah, I do.
I have to work hard at feelingoptimistic.
And I don't know if it's.
About that anymore?
For me, I think it's more aboutjust getting on with it.
Yeah.
Regardless of how I feel, wehave to still be purposeful, you
know, about what we're doing andwe have to still make an effort.
(29:54):
I think that's the main thing.
And so hope helps with thatbecause it can give us energy,
it gives us enough energy tokind of be.
Galvanized for the fight, but,I'd be lying if I said I felt it
all the time.
I, I do, I swing between, youknow, emotions a lot.
but I will keep, trying and I'llkeep doing the best that I can.
(30:14):
Um, because it's not just aboutus, it's about all the
generations to come and it'sabout all our wild creatures and
places That's right.
That we haven't yet lost.
We kind of don't have the luxuryof giving up, of just, you know,
losing hope.
I don't, I don't think we've gotthat luxury.
Brett Benner (30:31):
Yeah, I, I completely agree with you.
Well, Charlotte, thank you somuch for sitting down with me
today.
This was just terrific.
as I said before, I think thebook is just fantastic.
Wild, dark Shore.
Get it, buy Independent if youcan.
It's truly a terrific book.
So congratulations.
(30:52):
And of course this will also beup on my bookshop.org page,
along with Charlotte's otherbooks, so you can check them all
out there.
but thanks again for joining me.
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