June 20, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with writer/producer Chris Chibnall to discuss his debut mystery, 'Death At The White Hart'. They talk around the story, avoiding spoilers, dive into his career as a successful producer on such shows as Dr Who and Broadchurch, and find a mutual admiration for the same bestselling author.
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https://www.instagram.com/chrischibnall/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:01):
Hello everybody, and welcome or welcome back to
another episode of Behind theStack in this double feature
June today.
I was so fortunate to sit downwith writer, producer,
screenwriter, and playwright,Chris Chibnall.
We had the best conversationabout not only his debut novel,
(00:23):
Death At the White Hart, butalso his career as a showrunner,
as a writer for television, as aplaywright.
We covered so much ground and itreally was a wonderful
conversation.
So before we launch in, I wantedto tell you a little bit about
Chris.
He's a bafta, Peabody and RoyalTelevision Society Award-winning
screenwriter, producer andplaywright.
(00:44):
He is the creator of theinternationally acclaimed broad
church.
Chibnall was also the showrunnerof the BBC's, Dr.
Who He has honorary doctoratesfrom Edgehill University and
Sheffield Hallam UniversityChibnall lives in West Dorsett,
England.
So please enjoy thisconversation with the incredibly
charming Chris Chibnall I'mreally thrilled to be sitting
(01:11):
down with Chris Chibnall today,whose brand new book, death At
the White Heart is just comeout.
It, it's so good.
And obviously for fans of BroadChurch, which I was a huge fan
and when I heard about this, Icouldn't wait to get my hands on
it.
And for all of you out there,and I know there's so many of
you, you will not bedisappointed.
(01:33):
So.
Chris, welcome.
Chris Chibnall (01:35):
Thank you very much.
Thanks for such a greatintroduction.
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Brett Benner (01:39):
No, I, I, I, I really did.
Before we get into the book,and, and as we were saying
earlier, it's gonna be a littlebit of a tricky.
Conversation, avoiding landminesbecause, you know, with a book
like this, you, you can't reallyget into much without
potentially spoiling something.
Yeah.
Good luck, Brent.
Yes.
How did you pick the cover?
(02:00):
No, I'm kidding.
Alright, so, so, so backing up,I just am so curious.
Were you, what, were you alwaysa reader as a kid?
Chris Chibnall (02:09):
Yeah, very much so.
I mean, I started.
Very young, um, started withthings like, Enid Blyton, who, I
don't know, I dunno how muchthat's a, that's a known
quantity in the US children'sauthor who did stories like the
famous five and the Secretseven, which were mystery
(02:29):
novels.
I guess the equivalent wouldthen be.
I feel like if you're sort ofmaybe, I don't know, 6, 7, 8,
you were, and you were a Britishkid in the, in the seventies,
then you were probably reading eblight early on, or you were
aware of her books and then,then I.
I progressed to like Hardy Boysand Nancy Drew and those, you
(02:51):
know, and, and I think there'ssome similarities between sort
of famous five and six sevenwho, like gangs of kids and
teens who were investigatingmysteries.
Ina blight was sort of the.
A kind of a, I don't know, a, athirties, forties, I don't even
know what period it was reallynow, thirties, forties, quite
harsh world to do kind of, um,English kids going to islands
(03:13):
and solving strange events.
So then as they do, yeah, youknow, the standard childhood
everyone has, um, and um, and.
That then led, and the otherthing I was reading was I was a
big Dr.
Who fan and, and the, a reallyunusual thing I think in, in
terms of it doesn't really seemto have happened with other
(03:34):
shows.
All of the Dr who stories gotnovelizations and were were
written mostly by an NorthDakota, Terrence Dix, who, who
again for my generation ofreaders was responsible for us
learning to read because.
You know, um, so manynovelizations of Dr.
Who's stories, and if you're afan, you would go and read those
(03:56):
and you'd go and buy them whenthey came out.
And they were very clearly,simply brilliantly written.
Uh, and so that was a thing thatI read.
And then that all of those thenled me to Agatha Christie and
wow, borrowing an AgathaChristie a week from the
library.
Probably in my, really, in myteens when I was living on me
(04:17):
side, um, form B Library in thenorthwest of England is
responsible for a lot of myreading habits.
And you, I would borrow one aweek.
Read that, take it back, getanother.
So I was, I was, I suppose allof my childhood and teen reading
before then I got into, youknow, like 15 or 16.
Then I was discovering StephenKing.
(04:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And sort of more forbiddenthings and you know, Dean Ktz
and, you know, things like that,that were slightly a bit too old
from, you know, I think wealways read, don't read.
Brett Benner (04:50):
I feel like we were on the exact same
trajectory because Oh really?
Did you have that too?
Well, I was, I, yeah, and I wastalking about, of course, I, I
don't know that.
The first author you weretalking about, what?
It's definitely the Hardy Boys.
I remember my mother likeChristmas getting Hardy Boy
books, and that was like such a,such a gift because again,
library, library, library.
Mm-hmm.
But I remember the Stephen Kingcoming into it too, around that
(05:13):
exact same time.
I was probably in middle schoolor just about to go into high
school.
And I remember the very firstone, it was Carrie and I
remember the cover and Iremember, and I remember
thinking like.
What is this?
And then becoming obsessed.
Yeah.
Chris Chibnall (05:27):
I had a thing with Stephen King where I, I
really devoured a, a lot ofstuff including Carrie and
Salem's lot.
There was an amazing TVadaptation of Salem's Lot or in,
in that era.
That was David Soul.
Yeah.
And James Mason.
And that really against, sent meback to Stephen King.
And, and um, but I remember whenI, when I was doing my A Levels
(05:48):
and I had a university interviewfor English course and said
reading.
And we were talking about booksand I was talking about the,
the, uh, books I was reading onmy courses.
And then this sort of, this,this lecture, she probed further
and she was like, what, what areyou, what else are you reading?
I was like, well, I'm a reallyhuge fan of Stephen King, but I
know that that probably isn'twhat you're asking about.
(06:09):
And she said, no, no, no,that's, that's as important as
valid.
Don't.
What you like to read or what isvaluable or what is valid if, if
you, if you, that material isspeaking to you and if, if he as
a writer is important to you,you must always, you know, um,
(06:30):
uh, treasure that.
And it was a really incrediblethat I can remember that I can
remember it where exactly whatthat, that meeting in that
meeting room, um, to this day.
And I thought it's an incrediblething of really
Brett Benner (06:45):
well, I also believe that.
You know, when people say, I'mnot a, I'm not a reader.
And I always say, well, I don't,just don't think you've read the
thing that has connected youyet.
Right?
Yeah.
'cause there's people thatcertainly read and are voracious
readers and go througheverything, but most people
aren't that person.
But I think if you find that onething that she's, my, my, it's
(07:07):
so funny, I always tell thisstory.
My daughter's a prime examplebecause she was, she's never
been much of a reader.
She's a, she, ironically, she'sa, she's a wonderful writer, but
she doesn't, she's never reallyread, but the years that she
went to summer camp.
Few years ago.
And one of the girls that washer good friend who she goes
back with every year, was kindof a voracious reader, but she
came back and um, she's like,well, I read some books this
(07:29):
summer.
And I was like, okay, good.
That's amazing.
What did you read?
And she's like, well, I readthis author and it was so good.
And I was like, what?
What was it?
I'm thinking, you know, it'sgonna be.
Romcom.
I, I don't, I.
But anyway, she says, um, hername is Sally Rooney and it was
called Normal People.
Oh, amazing.
And I was like, wow, that's soincredible.
And she was like, it was soamazing.
(07:51):
And I was like, okay, if, ifthis is where we are, we can,
there's so much we can work withhere.
There's so much.
But yeah.
And I do feel like those things,like for me, Stephen King is a
prime example too.
And like the guy is so prolificand has written so many things
over the, you know, every yearhe is.
Putting something out, but also,um, I always feel like he's
gotten a bummer rap at timesbecause people try to classify
(08:12):
him as just a thriller or ahorror writer.
But what he's playing with is soincredible and his character
development is just phenomenaland, and.
Incredible that he's publishedso many books and doesn't repeat
himself that often.
It's even with themes.
Chris Chibnall (08:33):
Yeah, I completely agree.
He's a beautiful, um, sointelligent, so, uh, such a
crisp and sharp writer and, andhe's an absolute, he's a genius
and.
I, I couldn't agree more.
And you think of, you think ofthe amount of people he must
have turned on to read it.
(08:53):
Yeah.
Because of his, his abilities asa storyteller, as a writer, as
a, as a creator of charactersthat stay with you your whole
life.
You know, if we're gonnaExactly.
Talk about him and you, you cantalk about Salem's, Laura.
I can think about reading miseryfor the first time.
Yeah.
Um, uh, genuinely shocking andthrilling and page turning.
And, and in a.
It's so interesting.
(09:14):
You talk about your daughter andSally Rooney.
It's like we all, those of uswho become readers, I think
it's, we all have our gatewaydrug that there was the person
who Yeah.
You know, o opened it up andyou're like, oh, I'm, I'm look,
always looking to recapture thatfeeling.
And you, you mark your life inthose books that have really
indelibly marked you.
Brett Benner (09:37):
Yeah, and they're the kind of books, I say this
all the time where you canremember certain books where you
were when you were reading it.
Mm-hmm.
It's so evocative.
Even bringing back colors,smells, the whole thing.
Absolutely.
Like whether it was a book.
I remember sitting in the backof my father's car and driving
somewhere where the summer andhaving a book in my hands.
It's, it's what's amazing to meabout listening to you though
(09:57):
and who you.
All of the kind of things thatyou generated towards when you
were young, how you realized itas an adult in terms of what
you're doing.
I mean not, not the least ofwhich is Dr.
Who, which is, that must havejust been such a incredible I.
Uh, full circle moment for youcoming into that world, I
(10:19):
imagine.
Yeah,
Chris Chibnall (10:19):
and, and really surprising because, you know,
there are so many, there are somany writers in on, on the
planet who would love to writefor Dr.
Who.
So getting to.
To do that and getting to writeepisodes and then getting to run
the show for some seasons aswell was a, yeah, it was a, a
complete joy and, and a realthrill and, and only gets more
so as time goes by, to behonest.
(10:41):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, it, it is a, I, Iguess It's funny because as a
writer you often think of thethings that haven't got
commissioned or, or haven't, youknow, work works.
You think, oh, I was, I wasgonna write that and then I
ended up writing the otherthing.
Or, um, yeah, but you, you doend up following your tastes and
(11:04):
I would say it's theseconversations and.
Two strands.
The, the, the, the doctor whostrand and the, the kind of
mystery detective strand reallygo back to when, you know,
really sort of seven, eightyears old.
(11:24):
And, and I've ended up doingthat in my career without
consciously realizing it, to behonest.
Sure,
Brett Benner (11:31):
sure.
Yeah.
There was something I read oncethat said, you know, if, if you
wanna know what you should bedoing in the present, look back
to what you did as a, as a childin the past to see what those
things were and, um.
So I'm, I'm, I'm sure for somepeople if they were, you know,
stabbing the dog, that wouldn'tbe the best thing to go back to.
But, um, well, you
Chris Chibnall (11:50):
know, there's a cameo quote, and I can't
remember exactly what it is, butthe, the basis of, it's very
similar to that, where he saysthe journey of an artist is the
journey towards trying torecapture the images or things
that first captured one's.
heart uh, and, and if you arewriting from a place of love,
(12:12):
particularly of genre, um, Ithink you are trying to evoke in
new readers or viewers thefeeling that you had when you
were reading the Secret History,or, or, yes.
It, or, you know, watching Yes.
Jaws or something like that.
Brett Benner (12:31):
Yes.
All, all of the above jaws.
I was just talking about thiswith my business partner Jaws,
which ruined an entiregeneration of young people's.
Love of the beach.
That
Chris Chibnall (12:42):
exactly right.
And it's, but it's sort of
Brett Benner (12:44):
also
Chris Chibnall (12:45):
every, every movie ever since his sort of
jaws
Brett Benner (12:47):
as well, you know?
Yes.
Tried, tried some, try someversion of that, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Darkness in the water.
Yeah.
So.
Um, so then I'm so curiousbecause then you went to
university for drama, correct?
Chris Chibnall (12:58):
Yeah.
St.
Mary's, uh, university inStrawberry Hill near Twickenham
in, in London.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And did a drama degree
Brett Benner (13:04):
that, that all sounds so idyllic.
That whole
Chris Chibnall (13:08):
wasn't far from the rugby ground where I lived,
which was less idyllic, but itwas a great place, really great
place to study.
And the great thing about thecourse was you did a bit of
everything, so.
I hadn't done any drama before Iwent to university.
I'd, I'd done English at school,I'd been in, um, a play in my
sixth form.
And the teacher there had said,well, you should, you know, you
(13:28):
should think about doing drama.
You, this is, this isinteresting.
And, so going and doing dramaand, and you did a bit of.
You know, we did, you didacting, you did stage
management, you did directing,you could do lighting, you could
do, there was a little bit oftelevision you could do.
Um, there was a writing courseand you just, and there was a
studio theater where you couldjust put on plays and, and
everybody did that and directedplays, and you do three night
(13:51):
runs and, and make it all fromscratch.
So it was a really greathands-on, really varied course.
So fabulous.
Entry into that.
And then there were, there weremodules you could take and I
chose like popular theater andum, American drama.
We did lots of Arthur Miller andum
Brett Benner (14:11):
mm-hmm.
Chris Chibnall (14:12):
And Eugene and Neil and so, so all that sort of
stuff.
It was a real, it was a realmix.
One day you'd be seeing astandup at the London Palladium,
you'd seeing Ken dod, who'scomedian, um, and Think Hall and
Variety and Beberg.
Brett Benner (14:28):
It almost sounds like a a, a bootcamp for
showrunners.
Huh.
Well, it, it, it was, um,looking back at it as you're
describing it, I guess so'slike, I hadn't thought of it
like that.
It's like a little, you know, itwas theater, but like, looking
at it, you're, you're getting somany aspects of so many
different parts of this holethat it's just fascinating.
Chris Chibnall (14:46):
I hadn't ever thought of it like that at all.
And so you saying that is a reallightning bolt because I think,
and I, I think Yes, a hundredpercent because what it also
taught me is.
To appreciate, uh, every head ofdepartment, every, you know, the
person who's doing the costume,the person who's doing the
lighting, person who's doing thesound.
(15:07):
Um, the, the direct of the stagemanagement, the, the, like,
everything is really importantand to love their processes and
their work.
That, that, to love the teamendeavor of making drama that.
You are basically leading a teamand curating a group of people.
(15:31):
Um, you're not doing their work.
You're going, right, let's get abunch of geniuses to make this
thing.
And, and the delight in showrunning is, is when they come
and, and, and everythingcoalesces into far more than the
sum of its parts and far morethan what you thought the most
delightful part of drama making.
Brett Benner (15:50):
You make it sound so absolutely beautiful.
But it is.
I mean, it's, it's messy.
No, but your description of it,and you're true and it is,
you're like a, you're, you'relike, you're like the ring, the
ring master in a circuseffectively.
And, uh, that's very true.
Chris Chibnall (16:03):
That's, I think that's what a show runner is in
many ways.
Yeah, yeah,
Brett Benner (16:07):
yeah.
And you're, you, you'rejuggling.
So many plates and you'rewearing so many hats and you're
running between post-productionand pre-production and running
to the set and dealing with anactor who has an issue.
And I, I think people, you know,there's no surprise why so many
showrunners are.
Are assisted medically to getthrough it, or maybe that's
(16:29):
just, just just in America,Brett.
Yeah, I maybe just speakingAmerica, because you seem like
you're a extremely welladjusted, I'm not, I'm not
assisted medically, but I'msurrounded by brilliant people,
you know?
So it's like assisted
Chris Chibnall (16:42):
humanly,
Brett Benner (16:43):
but you've worked on incredible stuff.
I mean, I, not the least ofwhich, and we can get into broad
church in a second and broadchurch in.
In relation to the book, becausethere's some comparisons just in
the, in the, the late, the tracklane, but like, uh, life on
Mars, which is so amazing, whichwas I think one of your, that
was your, your first experienceshow running.
Correct.
Was that, am I right?
I didn't, no,
Chris Chibnall (17:02):
I didn't show Run Life on Mars.
I, uh, I, my first show was ashow called Born and Bred on the
BBC, which was a sort of familySunday night, cozy drama, light
drama.
And then, um, outta that, I didtwo episodes of Life on Mars.
Once in each season.
It was created by.
Matthew Graham, Ashley Farrow,and Tony Jordan and I, I came, I
got sent the pilot script forit.
(17:24):
Said, do you, Hey, do you haveany interest in, in writing on
this?
Uh, and I just read the pilotand went, oh my goodness me.
Yes, please.
It was such a great script, sucha great idea, and then an
incredible cast.
So I was really lucky to writeon both seasons about loved it.
Brett Benner (17:38):
And then of course, Dr.
Who, which we, which she'sspoken about, which is so
incredible.
And then.
Torch wood.
Okay.
This is, I have to just say likein regards to Torch wood, I
loved torch wood so much.
Oh, and just the world, the wayit conspires, and I feel like
sometimes your computers arelistening to you if you're into
that kind of paranoia.
But I was at A a party thisweekend in Palm Springs for a
(18:02):
friend who was Australian, whobecame an American citizen,
although I don't know why, butanyway, he got his citizenship.
So there was a big, well, youknow, you're an American now
party.
Yeah.
Right.
And John Berryman was theentertainment I.
He was singing, he's
Chris Chibnall (18:17):
got a place in Palm Springs hasn't he?
Or something?
I dunno how I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (18:20):
I guess he has a place out there, which, you
know, I found this all outafterwards, but I walked in and
he was like up by the pool, likesinging away and, and I'm
connecting with that.
I mean, I know John's obviouslydone other stuff, but I was
like, wow, okay.
This is so crazy.
As Captain Jack Aliens may beabout to land.
We should be
Chris Chibnall (18:36):
careful.
Brett Benner (18:37):
Why is he here?
That's exactly, yes, exactlyright.
So that was, that was kind of acool moment.
Um, but it's also, I I, I, I,going back to what we were
saying earlier, just yourtelevision writing has been so
incredible too.
Just the span of genres, whichagain, are so connected to
seemingly like your childhoodand what you were reading and
law and order.
We can't forget Law and order,which was an amazing thing you
got to do too.
(18:57):
Which was the first of thatcoming over from like Dick Wolf.
Singling out saying, would youlike to do this?
Chris Chibnall (19:02):
Yeah, it was, yeah, it was a really brilliant
opportunity and actually I hadto, I, I stopped working on
Torch to do that because it justseemed such an unusual thing to
do.
And the first time Dick hadsaid, okay, we're gonna do a,
we, we'll do an English languageversion that's not set in in the
us so.
Yeah, getting to learn from himhow that show worked and, and
(19:25):
understanding how formatted itwas, how tightly structured, how
tightly plotted it was, and, andtrying to find a version that
worked for ITV in the UK that wecould set in London, that that
could still retain the DNA thatpeople really loved about that
show.
It was a really greatexperience, really interesting
(19:45):
exercise and, and yeah, Ilearned so much from him.
Doing that and, and, uh, we hada great cast as well.
Yeah, it was a, it was a, itwas, that was probably my first
full show running experiencereally, where it was just my
show and, and I could kind ofset it up, you know, obviously
learning from, from Dick in theus but really he gave us, um,
(20:08):
permission to make it our ownshow and, and.
Brett Benner (20:12):
Here's my question about it.
I'd never, I had never seen it.
But were you, um, you weren'tjust re were you remaking the
American stories and adaptingthem for a, a, a British
audience or were you coming upwith completely new and new
stories?
Chris Chibnall (20:27):
We were, we were remaking the US ones and
filtering them into the Britishsetting and.
That was the, that was theinteresting thing is because
also by the time we got to dothem, some of those stories were
20 years old, 25 years old.
Yeah.
So I watched, in order to putthat first season together, I
(20:47):
watched hundreds, literallyhundreds of.
Of law and order episodes to go,which ones feel resonant to
today, which ones feel like theywould take place in London.
Now put a, a package of the onesI really liked together, and
then we use them, I mean, kindof as outlines really, in a way
to, to then make our ownscripts.
(21:07):
And we obviously put themthrough.
Um, police and legal advisors,uh, in the UK who would go,
well, this wouldn't happen here.
That wouldn't happen there.
Some characters we changed, but,but they, yeah, they absolutely
came off the NBC originals andthat was part when I joined, I
think with, there was a planlater on to do originals.
I.
Um, but, uh, but that sort ofdidn't manifest, so it was one
(21:29):
of the reasons I did was like, Idid 13, which they split over
two seasons when it, when ittransmitted, and then it was
like, okay, I think I've, I'vefigured out how, how to work
those, but if we're not gonnaoriginals, that's why I didn't
carry on with that show becauseI thought, well, that's
perfectly well set up.
But creatively Sure, sure,
Brett Benner (21:46):
sure.
I'd like to do something elsenow.
And then of course, broadChurch, which became such a
fricking phenomenon.
And you know, people still allthe time, and I recommend it
constantly when everyone's like,what do you like?
And I'm always like, have youseen Broad Church?
I mean, I thank you very much.
I know so many people still doit.
And first of all, it, it was thefirst time for me, and I know,
like I talked about to this,about my business partner
(22:07):
because she was such a huge fan.
And so when I said you werecoming on this podcast, but, uh,
I, I had never seen OliviaColeman before that.
Right.
And.
Oh my God.
And Jonathan Bailey.
I mean, like, you, you know.
Yeah.
It's a big, you were,
Chris Chibnall (22:23):
the casting gets even better with hindsight
because, because all of thoseguys, it really does on, because
it was the time, it was like,
Brett Benner (22:29):
yeah, it was like David Tenet, right.
That was the thing.
Like David Tenet was the thing.
Yeah.
And of course, David Tenet'sincredible in everything.
I've been watching Rivals, um,on Hulu right now, and he's
just, he's so, it's so funny andhe's so good, but, but.
God damn.
It was just like, what africking cast and like soup to
nuts every single character.
(22:50):
which again, now we, as we'regetting closer to the book,
which is what reminded me in, ina lot of ways, a death of the
white heart, just in terms ofthis group of such great
characters.
Uh oh.
Great.
So, so for our audience, do youhave a, a very general elevator
pitch?
An elevator pitch per se?
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
(23:10):
How do we talk about it
Chris Chibnall (23:11):
without
Brett Benner (23:11):
talking
Chris Chibnall (23:12):
about it?
Yes, yes.
Okay.
So what it is, it is, I mean,first of all, I think the way to
describe it is to go, well, it'sa, it's hopefully a page turning
suspect.
In the vein of a classic AgatheChristi, it takes place in an
English village.
Um, but with we're, but aboutcharacters, um, whose lives are
(23:36):
like the lives we all live now.
So that's really important andit opens.
Correct.
2:00 AM on a, on a very darkMisty September night on the A
35 A road in the, the west ofDorsett, southwest of England,
deserted.
And um, uh, it's just along thecoast and a, a guy is driving
(23:56):
home and he sees something aheadin the middle of the road, uh,
on this deserted gets car finds.
And on his head, his, his lowerhalf is in a Hessian sack.
And then his on, tied to hishead is a set of dear LERs.
(24:17):
And, uh, this guy is discoveredto be the landlord of the local
pub in the village.
Ofum, uh, Jim Tiernan, who'sjust had a particularly
rambunctious night in his, inhis own pub.
And the murder is investigatedby Nicola Bridge, a detective
who.
(24:37):
Crime has taken place, but it'sbeen away in Liverpool for a
couple of decades, has come homebecause of things she has to
deal with in her home life, andshe's come back for quiet life.
She does not get a quiet lifebecause of this man who has been
murdered and.
As you say, the story is toldfrom, it's from Nicola's
perspective, but also from theperspective of four or five of
(25:01):
the suspects in this murder, um,including.
So when I talk about characterswhose lives hopefully reflect
how we live now, it's like theyall live in a very sort of
beautiful bucolic Englishvillage, but they're doing jobs
like a guy in his sixties doingdeliveries for.
Um, you know, Amazon beingtracked hour by hour.
Mm.
There's a woman running anAirbnb.
(25:23):
There's a local barber.
Um, there's all, all thesedifferent types of people.
There's somebody here under theUkrainian, uh, homes for Refugee
scheme.
So it's a, it's a list ofsuspects that reflect the world
as it is now.
So one of them definitely killedJim T who is it?
And the novelist told sometimesfrom their perspective, so sort
(25:44):
of unreliable, narrators, and aof characters.
Psychologically grounded,emotionally real, but hopefully
it's an entertaining and it's,it's a real twisty, turny Paige
Turner, Alice, Stephen King,and, but, but ultimately feels
both real and, and real as anemotional drama, but also has
(26:04):
all the things you love aboutthat classic, uh, murder mystery
novel.
Brett Benner (26:09):
Yeah, it's not much of an
Chris Chibnall (26:10):
elevator pitch, but it is definitely a pitch.
Brett Benner (26:12):
Well, as I say to some people, it, you know, we
can go, the building can be astall as we'd like.
It can be long.
That was the Burge kif for thatone.
That's exactly right.
What a view.
When we got to the top, amazing.
Tom Cruise was on the outside.
Ready?
You're ready to leap off?
Yeah, no.
It is.
And it it is.
And it, like you said, you, youhave taken this what feels like
a classic murder mystery, Allah,Agatha Christi, and imbued it
(26:36):
with these very contemporarythings.
I mean, just the fact that, likeyou said, the wana character,
Ukrainian, there's a, there's acharacter who's non-binary.
Yeah.
So it's, it's, it feels verycontemporary now.
What made you, since you'rehaving this incredibly prolific
career.
Television and you've writtenplays, but what made you this
(26:57):
time to say, you know what?
I'm gonna write this as a book.
And also the book is about to beadapted, which you're gonna do.
Um, it was always in the back ofyour head, you were like, I'm
gonna write this book'cause Iwanna do this, but I know that,
you know, you read it and you'relike me.
You're like, oh my God.
Well this could be adapted, youknow, lends itself to that.
Chris Chibnall (27:13):
I did not foresee that, and for which I
now feel an idiot.
Oh.
Um, I, and many people havesaid, well, of course exactly
what you've said.
Well, of course.
Um, but I really wanted to writea novel.
I wanted to write a novel for solong because, um.
I mean, it feels like being aproper writer, doesn't it?
(27:34):
It's like, it's just, it's youand the words and the page and
the reader, that kind ofintimate experience.
So I, I wanted to see whether Icould do it.
And when Broad Church first cameout, I had offers from
publishers to do it, I guess,'cause that it has a sort of
novelistic quality to it.
That episodes serialized drama.
Um, so I had never really hadthe time, I did further scenes
(27:56):
as Broad Church went straightinto Dr.
Who.
So coming.
I wanted to make the time to dothings that were as creatively
exciting and challenging as, asrunning Dr.
Who, because you're doing somany stories then in different
planets, time zones, whatever.
And the one of, one of the, sortof the sort of three things on
my creative bucket list was,okay, try and write that novel.
(28:19):
So I wrote some sample chapters,showed them to my agents.
Um, and then we started talkingto some publishers.
But I, yeah, part of it was, wasjust.
I mean, all of it was, I, I wantto try this form, see if I can
do it, and, and enjoy that.
So, and particularly when I waswriting it, I was very conscious
(28:40):
not to write it as a TV scriptand very conscious to make it
hard.
I, I, I, I was gonna say, tomake it hard to adapt, but more
to not have any sense of.
If this ever got adapted or if Iwas writing this for the screen,
I would do it this way.
It was much more, I wanted it tostandalone as a novel for it to
feel very immersive as anovelistic experience, hence
(29:00):
this multiple points of view.
Um, so yeah, the, the, the aimwas to write a, a real, um,
block busting page turning, but,but emotionally true novel, and
then anything else wasn't aconsideration.
Now, of course.
And as you say, I'm gonna behoist with my own guitar and
(29:21):
have to figure out how to adaptit, but yeah.
Brett Benner (29:23):
Yeah.
Well there is that, that, andthat's a whole interesting other
conversation after you gothrough it to find out, you
know, yeah.
What you had to excise, what,what you had to, you know,
expand.
Because it makes me think too,when you.
In that first season of BroadChurch, were you always aware
that you were gonna go beyond aseason one, or was it something
that, that as it became, youknow, because you, you, you
(29:44):
don't know, you know, you'reworking in a vacuum initially,
so you certainly don't know,okay, this is gonna be a massive
hit.
Right.
Um, and there's gonna be ademand for it.
But did you have a kind ofguideline at the time you
thought, okay, I can, I knowwhere this story goes beyond the
first
Chris Chibnall (29:57):
season.
Yes, I did.
And I, I was very quiet about itpublicly, but, but when we were
talking about it with thebroadcast with ITV here in the
uk, uh, when we were making thefirst season, I.
I said, well, look, if there,you know, if, if, if people are
interested, I have anotherstory, possibly another two
(30:20):
stories in this world.
And, and, and they were like,yeah, yeah, that's fine.
Let's just see how this goes forthe moment.
And then when it, when it reallyhit, they were like, did you
say, did you say was more?
And I was like, yes, but it'snot.
Can we get him on the phoneplease?
But even then it was sort of, itwas kind of different in terms
of going, I was always veryclear it wasn't.
(30:40):
The, the, the sort of thetrilogy of Broad Church was
different aspects, that itwasn't a repeating formula.
Obviously the second seasonfocuses on the trial because so
much as the trial is about truthand, and what happens to the
family of those victims and there the re traumatizing of them
and the, the, the difficulty offinding the truth in that
(31:01):
judicial process.
Um, and then the, the thirdseason again was, was a
different story that.
Assault and, how that chimedwith the times.
Really, we did a lot of researchon, into that with various
organizations and charities.
So it was very much neverdesigned to be a sort of formula
to be repeated.
It was a, it was a sort ofongoing story with a different
(31:24):
emphasis each season.
Brett Benner (31:25):
Sure.
So.
With this, with death at thewhite heart having come through
it, how did you find theexperience?
Did you enjoy it?
Did you, yeah.
Obviously it set up its ownchallenges for you, but was it,
was it what you expectedultimately did it?
I.
Uh, did it satisfy you?
It,
Chris Chibnall (31:43):
it really did.
I loved doing it.
Uh, it was, it was an exciting,creative challenge.
Uh, and you make lots ofdiscoveries when you're going
through it because you are, aswith any piece of writing,
however much you.
Have an idea for it, structureit, plot it, know where you're
going.
Obviously there's just thingsalong the way where a character
refuses to do something andsays, oh, no, no, no, we're
(32:05):
going over here.
Or there's somebody else pops upand you think, oh, I didn't even
know they'd be in it.
And so all of that and how, youknow, finding the right
narrative, voice and voices,finding the balance.
Pace and clarity and, and theright language for the, the
genre and the story and thecharacters.
(32:25):
All of those things were really,uh, exciting creative
challenges.
I, I, I really loved it and justto be able to immerse myself in
that world and just sort ofdisappear into it for a period
of time.
Uh, it was, yeah, it was justfantastic.
I also had two great editors,one in the uk, one in the US who
were, who were there to sort of,you know, uh, uh, to, to guide
(32:48):
me through the process.
And whenever I'd go, is thisfast enough or too slow, or too
ruminative, or too plotty?
Mm.
So all those kinds of things,they were, they were just
brilliant.
Yeah.
Were they ever at odds.
No, they weren't.
Well, not to me.
I mean, they might have been toeach other, but they were great
editors in terms of, by the timethey presented to me, it was a
(33:09):
very united front.
Um, and as, as we talked throughit and I had agreed with their
notes, so it was, yeah.
Oh, that's great.
It was really good.
And they both super experiencedand super experienced in the, in
the genre as well, so, yeah.
Brett Benner (33:25):
I, I know that like this deal.
When this book was a part of atwo book deal, was it a two book
deal that was related to, Iguess my question is, do you
see.
These detectives in particular,continuing in your head, is it,
do you have, going back into theworld of this?
Is that what this is for you, doyou think?
Chris Chibnall (33:44):
Yeah, it's very much the story of, so Nicola
and, uh, Harry, her, her juniordetective partner who she, um.
starts working within death atthe White Heart and he's, he's,
he's known as Westlife becauseof his boy band Good Looks in
the, in the station.
And, um, it's, the story of thatfirst novel is really the story
of how they begin to worktogether and come to a, an
(34:06):
understanding of who each otheris and the connection between
them and, and what I reallywanna do.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm writing book two now.
Yes.
Of.
They will have another case inthe second book, will be in a
different place still SouthwestEngland.
Uh, but, but yes, the aim is forthem to, to develop across book
(34:26):
two and, and who knows if peoplelike, you know, both books then,
then beyond that.
Brett Benner (34:33):
Wow.
And then the development is, isit for a series or a movie?
Chris Chibnall (34:37):
Be for a series.
We're gonna do a six part seriesfor ITV, uh, which we'll
hopefully film next year.
Brett Benner (34:44):
Wow.
Do you, when you wrote this,because again, you've been
working in the, you know,entertainment business for so
long, and you've amassed, I'msure in your mind, such an, uh,
a diverse group of actors.
Did you ever write this bookwith people in mind where you
mm-hmm.
Hearing people's voices as youwere creating things?
Chris Chibnall (35:04):
No, I wasn't.
I was really interested in that.
Amazing.
'cause sometimes when I'mwriting scripts that does happen
and you think, oh, this is thatactor, or, or, um, somebody just
comes into your mind.
Or you might even have somebody,you know, a photograph of a few
actors pinned to the wall.
Um.
But not in this, not at all.
And even now, I don't know.
So I'm really looking forward tothe, that's what I wanted to ask
(35:25):
you.
I wanted say who,
Brett Benner (35:27):
yes.
I wanted to say, who is yourdream?
Who would be your dream?
Nicola and Harry.
Chris Chibnall (35:32):
I think the, the most foolish thing would be for
me to answer that question rightnow, Brett, because as soon as
we start casting it and we goout to people, that's, it's like
stuck.
Brett Benner (35:44):
Right.
Right.
Chris Chibnall (35:45):
You're great.
Their agents would be like, Iapparently they're not the
number one choice.
Right, right.
I actually Fair enough.
That is fair.
I genuinely don't know, and Ilove the casting process because
sometimes you are surprised.
Oh yeah.
I What an actor does with it,and that's part of what I love
is, is sometimes you think, I'mreally clear who this character
(36:05):
is, and then somebody comes inand reads it.
You go, oh my goodness.
There's so much more than I.
So, so yeah, I, uh, I'm reallyopen.
I, but I found it surprisingthat I didn't have actors in
mind, so with the, the book, Ijust fascinating.
Really think of the characters,not the actors with their,
that's amazing.
Brett Benner (36:24):
I have to take like a, a, it's almost like a
promo break to say, and I'm,now, I have to get a copy of the
audio book of this, becauseJessica Gunning is reading the
book, and I, when I saw that, Iwas like.
Wow, how amazing is that?
I, I think she's such anextraordinary actress, so I
absolutely, for, for all of youwho are audio book people, I, I
(36:46):
definitely think this isprobably a treat hearing her
read this.
Yes.
Chris Chibnall (36:49):
I think, I think we need to call her Golden Globe
and BAFTA Award-winning JessicaGunning.
Yes.
Yes.
You're, you're exactly right.
She, because, you know, gottakeep up to that.
It's happened in the past fewweeks, but, um, yeah, she's done
an amazing job on the audiobook.
She's brilliant.
When her name came up as apossibility and, and then, and,
(37:10):
and she was actually in Law andOrder uk, um, uh, she was, yeah,
she was a regular character and,um, but I, I've always loved her
work and so when she said yes todoing it and hearing what she's
done with it, how much fun she'sfound on it, how much
characterization she's broughtto it, it's fabulous.
So yeah.
Thank you for mentioning.
Brett Benner (37:27):
No, I just read, I read a, a great article where
she was talking about it and thechallenges of it and just doing
all the voices and, uh, but howshe and she spoke about law and
order and, and I'm sure you readthe article and, and she really
praised you and how great youwere, but, um, oh, that's nice.
Yeah, so I immediately was like.
Oh my God, now I'm gonna haveto, I I absolutely have to
listen to it.
And, and now, because it's sofresh, you couldn't even hear
(37:50):
samples of it yet.
Like I went into two differentplaces to try to listen to a
sample and there was nothing upyet.
So
Chris Chibnall (37:55):
anyway.
Ah, really?
Yeah.
Brett Benner (37:57):
Yeah.
But I'm, but, but that's sofantastic.
I just have to say the twopeople that I really like.
I'm just gonna tell you what Ithought.
Oh, you gonna cost it for usnow?
Well, all, all I, all I reallyjust an, I don't even know if
she's too old, but I keptthinking of, of Ruth Nega.
Yeah.
Who I just, thought's amazing.
But I just dunno if she's tooold.
Uh, but also, um, the otherperson who I thought could be
(38:19):
great is, is Sarah Green.
Um, who's on Bad Sisters?
Oh yeah.
She's cool.
Yeah, she's great.
But, and maybe it's because I'mjust immersed right now in slow
horses, but Jack Loudin would beso great as.
Harry, anyway,
Chris Chibnall (38:36):
those are just, they're all good.
So when we are looking forcasting director, Brett will be,
uh, will be,
Brett Benner (38:41):
uh, phoning you up.
Exactly, exactly.
I'll be available.
I just had like, before we,before we close out here, what
is it?
You, I just am so curious.
What is it you love to watch andwhat is it now you love to read?
Are you still like a and and,and if you have any reading
recommendations that's great oranything current you've read,
but what do you also like towatch?
Chris Chibnall (39:01):
Well, I really love I'm, I mean, I'm very
eclectic in all of those things.
Like everyone else, I'm a.
I adore severance.
I, I completely think that is a,oh my gosh, an absolute work of
genius.
I love it.
I love that it exists.
I love the care that they putinto it.
I love that they're driving memad.
It feels to me like a.
(39:23):
Once in a generation show in thesame way that Twin Peaks did in
the same way that the prisonerdid here in the uk where it is
like a, just a kind of, it's,it's to the, to the, to the side
of where everything else is, butit's speaking to us about our
existence.
Uh, I think it's brilliantlydirected.
I think it's beautifully shotand scored and, you know, it's,
it's.
(39:44):
It, it, it's excellence on everylevel.
So that's agreed.
Really great.
Um, uh, so that's my, that's thebig one right now., A lot of the
shows I would recommend areBritish shows, which you
probably don't get.
We have a, we have a great, um,a great show here.
It's currently airing, raceacross the world, uh, which.
Uh, around around is it likeamazing race?
(40:07):
I think it's very similar toAmazing Race.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's sort of done with theBBC public service ethos here,
so that's great.
And there was also a great showon Amazon recently, called Last
One Laughing.
I dunno whether there's been aUS version of that yet, but it's
basically, no, we're gonna havethat.
It's a, it's a thing where theyput, a load of comedians into a,
a locked room.
It's kind of like big brother,but with comedians, they put
(40:29):
them in a, a locked room for, Ithink it's six hours, and, uh,
that they're not allowed tolaugh.
And so that it's a, it's acompetition format and so they
are, they are in there alltrying to make each other laugh,
and the British version is castso well with such high caliber
comedians.
It's just a joyous thing in theworld right now.
(40:52):
It's really good.
I guess if you've got Amazon,Bri, it's probably there in the
US as well, so, so the Britishversion is there.
It's, oh, it's great.
Brett Benner (41:01):
Yeah, that sounds like such a no-brainer for it
would be developed here.
Chris Chibnall (41:05):
Yeah, it must be coming your way, but I think
there's a British version,there's an Irish version,
there's a Australian version.
So, and I think they're all onPrime.
So, so I, I mean, I dunno why we
Brett Benner (41:14):
wouldn't have that when we have the, one of the,
you know, the, the panels goingup at the people naked
underneath it, the, you know,the dating show with the Naked,
I mean Oh yeah.
Naked Attraction.
Yeah.
Which is the first time Iremember turning that on.
I'm like.
Are you kidding me?
Are, and you know, the womanbeing like, clearly he's a
showa, not a grower.
You know?
I was like, are what?
So yeah, like, all right.
(41:36):
I guess this is what we've cometo now.
Chris Chibnall (41:38):
Yeah.
That's every Saturday night inEngland now.
Brett Benner (41:41):
Yes, yes, yes.
But, but, but fun and anythingyou're reading lately, have you
had time to read?
Chris Chibnall (41:46):
Yeah, I haven't had loads.
The big thing I'm recommendingwas something that was
recommended to me, which was a,which was a, a, a crime novel,
um, which was a French crimenovel, a mystery Oh.
Um, called Blackwater Lilies byMichelle Busey.
Um, and.
It's set in the town of Vinni,or the Village of Veni.
Okay.
Which is where Monet paintedwater, his painting water
lilies, and a body is foundthere and it's so evocative.
(42:11):
It's so French, has the mostFrench detective ever.
It's so clever, full of greatcharacters, and it's a real page
turner.
So, you know, once you've, um,bought red and finished death at
the white heart, I commend Yes,exactly.
Lilies.
Brett Benner (42:27):
Yes.
And by no means, I mean,absolutely first you should be
getting Death of the White Heartby Chris Augh.
Well, Chris, this was fantastic.
I, I love just kind of pickingyour brain about all the
business stuff too,'cause Ithink it's fascinating.
Um, and, uh.
Please go out and get the book.
Buy Independent if you can.
(42:48):
It's, it's really so good.
It is.
It's also such a great, as we'regetting into the summer months,
like the perfect summer book.
'cause it will take your mindand like you will not figure it
out.
I did not figure it out.
I, I did not see the end coming,which I was so glad.
And God knows I tried.
I kept thinking, oh, this is it.
I have this all locked down andno so.
(43:10):
It completely surprised me atthe end, so that was great.
I'm so excited to know that it'sbeing adapted and I can't wait
to see who you get in this cast'cause what a great group of
characters, so,
Chris Chibnall (43:23):
oh, great.
Thank you Brett.
Thank you so much.
I've really enjoyed, uh, thisconversation.
Thank you for such greatquestions as well.
Brett Benner (43:30):
Thank you again, Chris, and if you've liked this
conversation or otherconversations you've heard on
this podcast, please considerliking and subscribing on your
podcast platform of choice.
And what would be really helpfulis if you could review the
podcast, five Stars would beamazing and it helps me continue
to bring conversations like thisto you.
Thanks again for listening, andI'll be back next week with
(43:52):
another episode from Behind theStack.
Hello everybody, and welcome or welcome back to
another episode of Behind theStack in this double feature
June today.
I was so fortunate to sit downwith writer, producer,
screenwriter, and playwright,Chris Chibnall.
We had the best conversationabout not only his debut novel,
(00:23):
Death At the White Hart, butalso his career as a showrunner,
as a writer for television, as aplaywright.
We covered so much ground and itreally was a wonderful
conversation.
So before we launch in, I wantedto tell you a little bit about
Chris.
He's a bafta, Peabody and RoyalTelevision Society Award-winning
screenwriter, producer andplaywright.
(00:44):
He is the creator of theinternationally acclaimed broad
church.
Chibnall was also the showrunnerof the BBC's, Dr.
Who He has honorary doctoratesfrom Edgehill University and
Sheffield Hallam UniversityChibnall lives in West Dorsett,
England.
So please enjoy thisconversation with the incredibly
charming Chris Chibnall I'mreally thrilled to be sitting
(01:11):
down with Chris Chibnall today,whose brand new book, death At
the White Heart is just comeout.
It, it's so good.
And obviously for fans of BroadChurch, which I was a huge fan
and when I heard about this, Icouldn't wait to get my hands on
it.
And for all of you out there,and I know there's so many of
you, you will not bedisappointed.
(01:33):
So.
Chris, welcome.
Chris Chibnall (01:35):
Thank you very much.
Thanks for such a greatintroduction.
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Brett Benner (01:39):
No, I, I, I, I really did.
Before we get into the book,and, and as we were saying
earlier, it's gonna be a littlebit of a tricky.
Conversation, avoiding landminesbecause, you know, with a book
like this, you, you can't reallyget into much without
potentially spoiling something.
Yeah.
Good luck, Brent.
Yes.
How did you pick the cover?
(02:00):
No, I'm kidding.
Alright, so, so, so backing up,I just am so curious.
Were you, what, were you alwaysa reader as a kid?
Chris Chibnall (02:09):
Yeah, very much so.
I mean, I started.
Very young, um, started withthings like, Enid Blyton, who, I
don't know, I dunno how muchthat's a, that's a known
quantity in the US children'sauthor who did stories like the
famous five and the Secretseven, which were mystery
(02:29):
novels.
I guess the equivalent wouldthen be.
I feel like if you're sort ofmaybe, I don't know, 6, 7, 8,
you were, and you were a Britishkid in the, in the seventies,
then you were probably reading eblight early on, or you were
aware of her books and then,then I.
I progressed to like Hardy Boysand Nancy Drew and those, you
(02:51):
know, and, and I think there'ssome similarities between sort
of famous five and six sevenwho, like gangs of kids and
teens who were investigatingmysteries.
Ina blight was sort of the.
A kind of a, I don't know, a, athirties, forties, I don't even
know what period it was reallynow, thirties, forties, quite
harsh world to do kind of, um,English kids going to islands
(03:13):
and solving strange events.
So then as they do, yeah, youknow, the standard childhood
everyone has, um, and um, and.
That then led, and the otherthing I was reading was I was a
big Dr.
Who fan and, and the, a reallyunusual thing I think in, in
terms of it doesn't really seemto have happened with other
(03:34):
shows.
All of the Dr who stories gotnovelizations and were were
written mostly by an NorthDakota, Terrence Dix, who, who
again for my generation ofreaders was responsible for us
learning to read because.
You know, um, so manynovelizations of Dr.
Who's stories, and if you're afan, you would go and read those
(03:56):
and you'd go and buy them whenthey came out.
And they were very clearly,simply brilliantly written.
Uh, and so that was a thing thatI read.
And then that all of those thenled me to Agatha Christie and
wow, borrowing an AgathaChristie a week from the
library.
Probably in my, really, in myteens when I was living on me
(04:17):
side, um, form B Library in thenorthwest of England is
responsible for a lot of myreading habits.
And you, I would borrow one aweek.
Read that, take it back, getanother.
So I was, I was, I suppose allof my childhood and teen reading
before then I got into, youknow, like 15 or 16.
Then I was discovering StephenKing.
(04:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And sort of more forbiddenthings and you know, Dean Ktz
and, you know, things like that,that were slightly a bit too old
from, you know, I think wealways read, don't read.
Brett Benner (04:50):
I feel like we were on the exact same
trajectory because Oh really?
Did you have that too?
Well, I was, I, yeah, and I wastalking about, of course, I, I
don't know that.
The first author you weretalking about, what?
It's definitely the Hardy Boys.
I remember my mother likeChristmas getting Hardy Boy
books, and that was like such a,such a gift because again,
library, library, library.
Mm-hmm.
But I remember the Stephen Kingcoming into it too, around that
(05:13):
exact same time.
I was probably in middle schoolor just about to go into high
school.
And I remember the very firstone, it was Carrie and I
remember the cover and Iremember, and I remember
thinking like.
What is this?
And then becoming obsessed.
Yeah.
Chris Chibnall (05:27):
I had a thing with Stephen King where I, I
really devoured a, a lot ofstuff including Carrie and
Salem's lot.
There was an amazing TVadaptation of Salem's Lot or in,
in that era.
That was David Soul.
Yeah.
And James Mason.
And that really against, sent meback to Stephen King.
And, and um, but I remember whenI, when I was doing my A Levels
(05:48):
and I had a university interviewfor English course and said
reading.
And we were talking about booksand I was talking about the,
the, uh, books I was reading onmy courses.
And then this sort of, this,this lecture, she probed further
and she was like, what, what areyou, what else are you reading?
I was like, well, I'm a reallyhuge fan of Stephen King, but I
know that that probably isn'twhat you're asking about.
(06:09):
And she said, no, no, no,that's, that's as important as
valid.
Don't.
What you like to read or what isvaluable or what is valid if, if
you, if you, that material isspeaking to you and if, if he as
a writer is important to you,you must always, you know, um,
(06:30):
uh, treasure that.
And it was a really incrediblethat I can remember that I can
remember it where exactly whatthat, that meeting in that
meeting room, um, to this day.
And I thought it's an incrediblething of really
Brett Benner (06:45):
well, I also believe that.
You know, when people say, I'mnot a, I'm not a reader.
And I always say, well, I don't,just don't think you've read the
thing that has connected youyet.
Right?
Yeah.
'cause there's people thatcertainly read and are voracious
readers and go througheverything, but most people
aren't that person.
But I think if you find that onething that she's, my, my, it's
(07:07):
so funny, I always tell thisstory.
My daughter's a prime examplebecause she was, she's never
been much of a reader.
She's a, she, ironically, she'sa, she's a wonderful writer, but
she doesn't, she's never reallyread, but the years that she
went to summer camp.
Few years ago.
And one of the girls that washer good friend who she goes
back with every year, was kindof a voracious reader, but she
came back and um, she's like,well, I read some books this
(07:29):
summer.
And I was like, okay, good.
That's amazing.
What did you read?
And she's like, well, I readthis author and it was so good.
And I was like, what?
What was it?
I'm thinking, you know, it'sgonna be.
Romcom.
I, I don't, I.
But anyway, she says, um, hername is Sally Rooney and it was
called Normal People.
Oh, amazing.
And I was like, wow, that's soincredible.
And she was like, it was soamazing.
(07:51):
And I was like, okay, if, ifthis is where we are, we can,
there's so much we can work withhere.
There's so much.
But yeah.
And I do feel like those things,like for me, Stephen King is a
prime example too.
And like the guy is so prolificand has written so many things
over the, you know, every yearhe is.
Putting something out, but also,um, I always feel like he's
gotten a bummer rap at timesbecause people try to classify
(08:12):
him as just a thriller or ahorror writer.
But what he's playing with is soincredible and his character
development is just phenomenaland, and.
Incredible that he's publishedso many books and doesn't repeat
himself that often.
It's even with themes.
Chris Chibnall (08:33):
Yeah, I completely agree.
He's a beautiful, um, sointelligent, so, uh, such a
crisp and sharp writer and, andhe's an absolute, he's a genius
and.
I, I couldn't agree more.
And you think of, you think ofthe amount of people he must
have turned on to read it.
(08:53):
Yeah.
Because of his, his abilities asa storyteller, as a writer, as
a, as a creator of charactersthat stay with you your whole
life.
You know, if we're gonnaExactly.
Talk about him and you, you cantalk about Salem's, Laura.
I can think about reading miseryfor the first time.
Yeah.
Um, uh, genuinely shocking andthrilling and page turning.
And, and in a.
It's so interesting.
(09:14):
You talk about your daughter andSally Rooney.
It's like we all, those of uswho become readers, I think
it's, we all have our gatewaydrug that there was the person
who Yeah.
You know, o opened it up andyou're like, oh, I'm, I'm look,
always looking to recapture thatfeeling.
And you, you mark your life inthose books that have really
indelibly marked you.
Brett Benner (09:37):
Yeah, and they're the kind of books, I say this
all the time where you canremember certain books where you
were when you were reading it.
Mm-hmm.
It's so evocative.
Even bringing back colors,smells, the whole thing.
Absolutely.
Like whether it was a book.
I remember sitting in the backof my father's car and driving
somewhere where the summer andhaving a book in my hands.
It's, it's what's amazing to meabout listening to you though
(09:57):
and who you.
All of the kind of things thatyou generated towards when you
were young, how you realized itas an adult in terms of what
you're doing.
I mean not, not the least ofwhich is Dr.
Who, which is, that must havejust been such a incredible I.
Uh, full circle moment for youcoming into that world, I
(10:19):
imagine.
Yeah,
Chris Chibnall (10:19):
and, and really surprising because, you know,
there are so many, there are somany writers in on, on the
planet who would love to writefor Dr.
Who.
So getting to.
To do that and getting to writeepisodes and then getting to run
the show for some seasons aswell was a, yeah, it was a, a
complete joy and, and a realthrill and, and only gets more
so as time goes by, to behonest.
(10:41):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, it, it is a, I, Iguess It's funny because as a
writer you often think of thethings that haven't got
commissioned or, or haven't, youknow, work works.
You think, oh, I was, I wasgonna write that and then I
ended up writing the otherthing.
Or, um, yeah, but you, you doend up following your tastes and
(11:04):
I would say it's theseconversations and.
Two strands.
The, the, the, the doctor whostrand and the, the kind of
mystery detective strand reallygo back to when, you know,
really sort of seven, eightyears old.
(11:24):
And, and I've ended up doingthat in my career without
consciously realizing it, to behonest.
Sure,
Brett Benner (11:31):
sure.
Yeah.
There was something I read oncethat said, you know, if, if you
wanna know what you should bedoing in the present, look back
to what you did as a, as a childin the past to see what those
things were and, um.
So I'm, I'm, I'm sure for somepeople if they were, you know,
stabbing the dog, that wouldn'tbe the best thing to go back to.
But, um, well, you
Chris Chibnall (11:50):
know, there's a cameo quote, and I can't
remember exactly what it is, butthe, the basis of, it's very
similar to that, where he saysthe journey of an artist is the
journey towards trying torecapture the images or things
that first captured one's.
heart uh, and, and if you arewriting from a place of love,
(12:12):
particularly of genre, um, Ithink you are trying to evoke in
new readers or viewers thefeeling that you had when you
were reading the Secret History,or, or, yes.
It, or, you know, watching Yes.
Jaws or something like that.
Brett Benner (12:31):
Yes.
All, all of the above jaws.
I was just talking about thiswith my business partner Jaws,
which ruined an entiregeneration of young people's.
Love of the beach.
That
Chris Chibnall (12:42):
exactly right.
And it's, but it's sort of
Brett Benner (12:44):
also
Chris Chibnall (12:45):
every, every movie ever since his sort of
jaws
Brett Benner (12:47):
as well, you know?
Yes.
Tried, tried some, try someversion of that, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Darkness in the water.
Yeah.
So.
Um, so then I'm so curiousbecause then you went to
university for drama, correct?
Chris Chibnall (12:58):
Yeah.
St.
Mary's, uh, university inStrawberry Hill near Twickenham
in, in London.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And did a drama degree
Brett Benner (13:04):
that, that all sounds so idyllic.
That whole
Chris Chibnall (13:08):
wasn't far from the rugby ground where I lived,
which was less idyllic, but itwas a great place, really great
place to study.
And the great thing about thecourse was you did a bit of
everything, so.
I hadn't done any drama before Iwent to university.
I'd, I'd done English at school,I'd been in, um, a play in my
sixth form.
And the teacher there had said,well, you should, you know, you
(13:28):
should think about doing drama.
You, this is, this isinteresting.
And, so going and doing dramaand, and you did a bit of.
You know, we did, you didacting, you did stage
management, you did directing,you could do lighting, you could
do, there was a little bit oftelevision you could do.
Um, there was a writing courseand you just, and there was a
studio theater where you couldjust put on plays and, and
everybody did that and directedplays, and you do three night
(13:51):
runs and, and make it all fromscratch.
So it was a really greathands-on, really varied course.
So fabulous.
Entry into that.
And then there were, there weremodules you could take and I
chose like popular theater andum, American drama.
We did lots of Arthur Miller andum
Brett Benner (14:11):
mm-hmm.
Chris Chibnall (14:12):
And Eugene and Neil and so, so all that sort of
stuff.
It was a real, it was a realmix.
One day you'd be seeing astandup at the London Palladium,
you'd seeing Ken dod, who'scomedian, um, and Think Hall and
Variety and Beberg.
Brett Benner (14:28):
It almost sounds like a a, a bootcamp for
showrunners.
Huh.
Well, it, it, it was, um,looking back at it as you're
describing it, I guess so'slike, I hadn't thought of it
like that.
It's like a little, you know, itwas theater, but like, looking
at it, you're, you're getting somany aspects of so many
different parts of this holethat it's just fascinating.
Chris Chibnall (14:46):
I hadn't ever thought of it like that at all.
And so you saying that is a reallightning bolt because I think,
and I, I think Yes, a hundredpercent because what it also
taught me is.
To appreciate, uh, every head ofdepartment, every, you know, the
person who's doing the costume,the person who's doing the
lighting, person who's doing thesound.
(15:07):
Um, the, the direct of the stagemanagement, the, the, like,
everything is really importantand to love their processes and
their work.
That, that, to love the teamendeavor of making drama that.
You are basically leading a teamand curating a group of people.
(15:31):
Um, you're not doing their work.
You're going, right, let's get abunch of geniuses to make this
thing.
And, and the delight in showrunning is, is when they come
and, and, and everythingcoalesces into far more than the
sum of its parts and far morethan what you thought the most
delightful part of drama making.
Brett Benner (15:50):
You make it sound so absolutely beautiful.
But it is.
I mean, it's, it's messy.
No, but your description of it,and you're true and it is,
you're like a, you're, you'relike, you're like the ring, the
ring master in a circuseffectively.
And, uh, that's very true.
Chris Chibnall (16:03):
That's, I think that's what a show runner is in
many ways.
Yeah, yeah,
Brett Benner (16:07):
yeah.
And you're, you, you'rejuggling.
So many plates and you'rewearing so many hats and you're
running between post-productionand pre-production and running
to the set and dealing with anactor who has an issue.
And I, I think people, you know,there's no surprise why so many
showrunners are.
Are assisted medically to getthrough it, or maybe that's
(16:29):
just, just just in America,Brett.
Yeah, I maybe just speakingAmerica, because you seem like
you're a extremely welladjusted, I'm not, I'm not
assisted medically, but I'msurrounded by brilliant people,
you know?
So it's like assisted
Chris Chibnall (16:42):
humanly,
Brett Benner (16:43):
but you've worked on incredible stuff.
I mean, I, not the least ofwhich, and we can get into broad
church in a second and broadchurch in.
In relation to the book, becausethere's some comparisons just in
the, in the, the late, the tracklane, but like, uh, life on
Mars, which is so amazing, whichwas I think one of your, that
was your, your first experienceshow running.
Correct.
Was that, am I right?
I didn't, no,
Chris Chibnall (17:02):
I didn't show Run Life on Mars.
I, uh, I, my first show was ashow called Born and Bred on the
BBC, which was a sort of familySunday night, cozy drama, light
drama.
And then, um, outta that, I didtwo episodes of Life on Mars.
Once in each season.
It was created by.
Matthew Graham, Ashley Farrow,and Tony Jordan and I, I came, I
got sent the pilot script forit.
(17:24):
Said, do you, Hey, do you haveany interest in, in writing on
this?
Uh, and I just read the pilotand went, oh my goodness me.
Yes, please.
It was such a great script, sucha great idea, and then an
incredible cast.
So I was really lucky to writeon both seasons about loved it.
Brett Benner (17:38):
And then of course, Dr.
Who, which we, which she'sspoken about, which is so
incredible.
And then.
Torch wood.
Okay.
This is, I have to just say likein regards to Torch wood, I
loved torch wood so much.
Oh, and just the world, the wayit conspires, and I feel like
sometimes your computers arelistening to you if you're into
that kind of paranoia.
But I was at A a party thisweekend in Palm Springs for a
(18:02):
friend who was Australian, whobecame an American citizen,
although I don't know why, butanyway, he got his citizenship.
So there was a big, well, youknow, you're an American now
party.
Yeah.
Right.
And John Berryman was theentertainment I.
He was singing, he's
Chris Chibnall (18:17):
got a place in Palm Springs hasn't he?
Or something?
I dunno how I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (18:20):
I guess he has a place out there, which, you
know, I found this all outafterwards, but I walked in and
he was like up by the pool, likesinging away and, and I'm
connecting with that.
I mean, I know John's obviouslydone other stuff, but I was
like, wow, okay.
This is so crazy.
As Captain Jack Aliens may beabout to land.
We should be
Chris Chibnall (18:36):
careful.
Brett Benner (18:37):
Why is he here?
That's exactly, yes, exactlyright.
So that was, that was kind of acool moment.
Um, but it's also, I I, I, I,going back to what we were
saying earlier, just yourtelevision writing has been so
incredible too.
Just the span of genres, whichagain, are so connected to
seemingly like your childhoodand what you were reading and
law and order.
We can't forget Law and order,which was an amazing thing you
got to do too.
(18:57):
Which was the first of thatcoming over from like Dick Wolf.
Singling out saying, would youlike to do this?
Chris Chibnall (19:02):
Yeah, it was, yeah, it was a really brilliant
opportunity and actually I hadto, I, I stopped working on
Torch to do that because it justseemed such an unusual thing to
do.
And the first time Dick hadsaid, okay, we're gonna do a,
we, we'll do an English languageversion that's not set in in the
us so.
Yeah, getting to learn from himhow that show worked and, and
(19:25):
understanding how formatted itwas, how tightly structured, how
tightly plotted it was, and, andtrying to find a version that
worked for ITV in the UK that wecould set in London, that that
could still retain the DNA thatpeople really loved about that
show.
It was a really greatexperience, really interesting
(19:45):
exercise and, and yeah, Ilearned so much from him.
Doing that and, and, uh, we hada great cast as well.
Yeah, it was a, it was a, itwas, that was probably my first
full show running experiencereally, where it was just my
show and, and I could kind ofset it up, you know, obviously
learning from, from Dick in theus but really he gave us, um,
(20:08):
permission to make it our ownshow and, and.
Brett Benner (20:12):
Here's my question about it.
I'd never, I had never seen it.
But were you, um, you weren'tjust re were you remaking the
American stories and adaptingthem for a, a, a British
audience or were you coming upwith completely new and new
stories?
Chris Chibnall (20:27):
We were, we were remaking the US ones and
filtering them into the Britishsetting and.
That was the, that was theinteresting thing is because
also by the time we got to dothem, some of those stories were
20 years old, 25 years old.
Yeah.
So I watched, in order to putthat first season together, I
(20:47):
watched hundreds, literallyhundreds of.
Of law and order episodes to go,which ones feel resonant to
today, which ones feel like theywould take place in London.
Now put a, a package of the onesI really liked together, and
then we use them, I mean, kindof as outlines really, in a way
to, to then make our ownscripts.
(21:07):
And we obviously put themthrough.
Um, police and legal advisors,uh, in the UK who would go,
well, this wouldn't happen here.
That wouldn't happen there.
Some characters we changed, but,but they, yeah, they absolutely
came off the NBC originals andthat was part when I joined, I
think with, there was a planlater on to do originals.
I.
Um, but, uh, but that sort ofdidn't manifest, so it was one
(21:29):
of the reasons I did was like, Idid 13, which they split over
two seasons when it, when ittransmitted, and then it was
like, okay, I think I've, I'vefigured out how, how to work
those, but if we're not gonnaoriginals, that's why I didn't
carry on with that show becauseI thought, well, that's
perfectly well set up.
But creatively Sure, sure,
Brett Benner (21:46):
sure.
I'd like to do something elsenow.
And then of course, broadChurch, which became such a
fricking phenomenon.
And you know, people still allthe time, and I recommend it
constantly when everyone's like,what do you like?
And I'm always like, have youseen Broad Church?
I mean, I thank you very much.
I know so many people still doit.
And first of all, it, it was thefirst time for me, and I know,
like I talked about to this,about my business partner
(22:07):
because she was such a huge fan.
And so when I said you werecoming on this podcast, but, uh,
I, I had never seen OliviaColeman before that.
Right.
And.
Oh my God.
And Jonathan Bailey.
I mean, like, you, you know.
Yeah.
It's a big, you were,
Chris Chibnall (22:23):
the casting gets even better with hindsight
because, because all of thoseguys, it really does on, because
it was the time, it was like,
Brett Benner (22:29):
yeah, it was like David Tenet, right.
That was the thing.
Like David Tenet was the thing.
Yeah.
And of course, David Tenet'sincredible in everything.
I've been watching Rivals, um,on Hulu right now, and he's
just, he's so, it's so funny andhe's so good, but, but.
God damn.
It was just like, what africking cast and like soup to
nuts every single character.
(22:50):
which again, now we, as we'regetting closer to the book,
which is what reminded me in, ina lot of ways, a death of the
white heart, just in terms ofthis group of such great
characters.
Uh oh.
Great.
So, so for our audience, do youhave a, a very general elevator
pitch?
An elevator pitch per se?
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
(23:10):
How do we talk about it
Chris Chibnall (23:11):
without
Brett Benner (23:11):
talking
Chris Chibnall (23:12):
about it?
Yes, yes.
Okay.
So what it is, it is, I mean,first of all, I think the way to
describe it is to go, well, it'sa, it's hopefully a page turning
suspect.
In the vein of a classic AgatheChristi, it takes place in an
English village.
Um, but with we're, but aboutcharacters, um, whose lives are
(23:36):
like the lives we all live now.
So that's really important andit opens.
Correct.
2:00 AM on a, on a very darkMisty September night on the A
35 A road in the, the west ofDorsett, southwest of England,
deserted.
And um, uh, it's just along thecoast and a, a guy is driving
(23:56):
home and he sees something aheadin the middle of the road, uh,
on this deserted gets car finds.
And on his head, his, his lowerhalf is in a Hessian sack.
And then his on, tied to hishead is a set of dear LERs.
(24:17):
And, uh, this guy is discoveredto be the landlord of the local
pub in the village.
Ofum, uh, Jim Tiernan, who'sjust had a particularly
rambunctious night in his, inhis own pub.
And the murder is investigatedby Nicola Bridge, a detective
who.
(24:37):
Crime has taken place, but it'sbeen away in Liverpool for a
couple of decades, has come homebecause of things she has to
deal with in her home life, andshe's come back for quiet life.
She does not get a quiet lifebecause of this man who has been
murdered and.
As you say, the story is toldfrom, it's from Nicola's
perspective, but also from theperspective of four or five of
(25:01):
the suspects in this murder, um,including.
So when I talk about characterswhose lives hopefully reflect
how we live now, it's like theyall live in a very sort of
beautiful bucolic Englishvillage, but they're doing jobs
like a guy in his sixties doingdeliveries for.
Um, you know, Amazon beingtracked hour by hour.
Mm.
There's a woman running anAirbnb.
(25:23):
There's a local barber.
Um, there's all, all thesedifferent types of people.
There's somebody here under theUkrainian, uh, homes for Refugee
scheme.
So it's a, it's a list ofsuspects that reflect the world
as it is now.
So one of them definitely killedJim T who is it?
And the novelist told sometimesfrom their perspective, so sort
(25:44):
of unreliable, narrators, and aof characters.
Psychologically grounded,emotionally real, but hopefully
it's an entertaining and it's,it's a real twisty, turny Paige
Turner, Alice, Stephen King,and, but, but ultimately feels
both real and, and real as anemotional drama, but also has
(26:04):
all the things you love aboutthat classic, uh, murder mystery
novel.
Brett Benner (26:09):
Yeah, it's not much of an
Chris Chibnall (26:10):
elevator pitch, but it is definitely a pitch.
Brett Benner (26:12):
Well, as I say to some people, it, you know, we
can go, the building can be astall as we'd like.
It can be long.
That was the Burge kif for thatone.
That's exactly right.
What a view.
When we got to the top, amazing.
Tom Cruise was on the outside.
Ready?
You're ready to leap off?
Yeah, no.
It is.
And it it is.
And it, like you said, you, youhave taken this what feels like
a classic murder mystery, Allah,Agatha Christi, and imbued it
(26:36):
with these very contemporarythings.
I mean, just the fact that, likeyou said, the wana character,
Ukrainian, there's a, there's acharacter who's non-binary.
Yeah.
So it's, it's, it feels verycontemporary now.
What made you, since you'rehaving this incredibly prolific
career.
Television and you've writtenplays, but what made you this
(26:57):
time to say, you know what?
I'm gonna write this as a book.
And also the book is about to beadapted, which you're gonna do.
Um, it was always in the back ofyour head, you were like, I'm
gonna write this book'cause Iwanna do this, but I know that,
you know, you read it and you'relike me.
You're like, oh my God.
Well this could be adapted, youknow, lends itself to that.
Chris Chibnall (27:13):
I did not foresee that, and for which I
now feel an idiot.
Oh.
Um, I, and many people havesaid, well, of course exactly
what you've said.
Well, of course.
Um, but I really wanted to writea novel.
I wanted to write a novel for solong because, um.
I mean, it feels like being aproper writer, doesn't it?
(27:34):
It's like, it's just, it's youand the words and the page and
the reader, that kind ofintimate experience.
So I, I wanted to see whether Icould do it.
And when Broad Church first cameout, I had offers from
publishers to do it, I guess,'cause that it has a sort of
novelistic quality to it.
That episodes serialized drama.
Um, so I had never really hadthe time, I did further scenes
(27:56):
as Broad Church went straightinto Dr.
Who.
So coming.
I wanted to make the time to dothings that were as creatively
exciting and challenging as, asrunning Dr.
Who, because you're doing somany stories then in different
planets, time zones, whatever.
And the one of, one of the, sortof the sort of three things on
my creative bucket list was,okay, try and write that novel.
(28:19):
So I wrote some sample chapters,showed them to my agents.
Um, and then we started talkingto some publishers.
But I, yeah, part of it was, wasjust.
I mean, all of it was, I, I wantto try this form, see if I can
do it, and, and enjoy that.
So, and particularly when I waswriting it, I was very conscious
(28:40):
not to write it as a TV scriptand very conscious to make it
hard.
I, I, I, I was gonna say, tomake it hard to adapt, but more
to not have any sense of.
If this ever got adapted or if Iwas writing this for the screen,
I would do it this way.
It was much more, I wanted it tostandalone as a novel for it to
feel very immersive as anovelistic experience, hence
(29:00):
this multiple points of view.
Um, so yeah, the, the, the aimwas to write a, a real, um,
block busting page turning, but,but emotionally true novel, and
then anything else wasn't aconsideration.
Now, of course.
And as you say, I'm gonna behoist with my own guitar and
(29:21):
have to figure out how to adaptit, but yeah.
Brett Benner (29:23):
Yeah.
Well there is that, that, andthat's a whole interesting other
conversation after you gothrough it to find out, you
know, yeah.
What you had to excise, what,what you had to, you know,
expand.
Because it makes me think too,when you.
In that first season of BroadChurch, were you always aware
that you were gonna go beyond aseason one, or was it something
that, that as it became, youknow, because you, you, you
(29:44):
don't know, you know, you'reworking in a vacuum initially,
so you certainly don't know,okay, this is gonna be a massive
hit.
Right.
Um, and there's gonna be ademand for it.
But did you have a kind ofguideline at the time you
thought, okay, I can, I knowwhere this story goes beyond the
first
Chris Chibnall (29:57):
season.
Yes, I did.
And I, I was very quiet about itpublicly, but, but when we were
talking about it with thebroadcast with ITV here in the
uk, uh, when we were making thefirst season, I.
I said, well, look, if there,you know, if, if, if people are
interested, I have anotherstory, possibly another two
(30:20):
stories in this world.
And, and, and they were like,yeah, yeah, that's fine.
Let's just see how this goes forthe moment.
And then when it, when it reallyhit, they were like, did you
say, did you say was more?
And I was like, yes, but it'snot.
Can we get him on the phoneplease?
But even then it was sort of, itwas kind of different in terms
of going, I was always veryclear it wasn't.
(30:40):
The, the, the sort of thetrilogy of Broad Church was
different aspects, that itwasn't a repeating formula.
Obviously the second seasonfocuses on the trial because so
much as the trial is about truthand, and what happens to the
family of those victims and there the re traumatizing of them
and the, the, the difficulty offinding the truth in that
(31:01):
judicial process.
Um, and then the, the thirdseason again was, was a
different story that.
Assault and, how that chimedwith the times.
Really, we did a lot of researchon, into that with various
organizations and charities.
So it was very much neverdesigned to be a sort of formula
to be repeated.
It was a, it was a sort ofongoing story with a different
(31:24):
emphasis each season.
Brett Benner (31:25):
Sure.
So.
With this, with death at thewhite heart having come through
it, how did you find theexperience?
Did you enjoy it?
Did you, yeah.
Obviously it set up its ownchallenges for you, but was it,
was it what you expectedultimately did it?
I.
Uh, did it satisfy you?
It,
Chris Chibnall (31:43):
it really did.
I loved doing it.
Uh, it was, it was an exciting,creative challenge.
Uh, and you make lots ofdiscoveries when you're going
through it because you are, aswith any piece of writing,
however much you.
Have an idea for it, structureit, plot it, know where you're
going.
Obviously there's just thingsalong the way where a character
refuses to do something andsays, oh, no, no, no, we're
(32:05):
going over here.
Or there's somebody else pops upand you think, oh, I didn't even
know they'd be in it.
And so all of that and how, youknow, finding the right
narrative, voice and voices,finding the balance.
Pace and clarity and, and theright language for the, the
genre and the story and thecharacters.
(32:25):
All of those things were really,uh, exciting creative
challenges.
I, I, I really loved it and justto be able to immerse myself in
that world and just sort ofdisappear into it for a period
of time.
Uh, it was, yeah, it was justfantastic.
I also had two great editors,one in the uk, one in the US who
were, who were there to sort of,you know, uh, uh, to, to guide
(32:48):
me through the process.
And whenever I'd go, is thisfast enough or too slow, or too
ruminative, or too plotty?
Mm.
So all those kinds of things,they were, they were just
brilliant.
Yeah.
Were they ever at odds.
No, they weren't.
Well, not to me.
I mean, they might have been toeach other, but they were great
editors in terms of, by the timethey presented to me, it was a
(33:09):
very united front.
Um, and as, as we talked throughit and I had agreed with their
notes, so it was, yeah.
Oh, that's great.
It was really good.
And they both super experiencedand super experienced in the, in
the genre as well, so, yeah.
Brett Benner (33:25):
I, I know that like this deal.
When this book was a part of atwo book deal, was it a two book
deal that was related to, Iguess my question is, do you
see.
These detectives in particular,continuing in your head, is it,
do you have, going back into theworld of this?
Is that what this is for you, doyou think?
Chris Chibnall (33:44):
Yeah, it's very much the story of, so Nicola
and, uh, Harry, her, her juniordetective partner who she, um.
starts working within death atthe White Heart and he's, he's,
he's known as Westlife becauseof his boy band Good Looks in
the, in the station.
And, um, it's, the story of thatfirst novel is really the story
of how they begin to worktogether and come to a, an
(34:06):
understanding of who each otheris and the connection between
them and, and what I reallywanna do.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm writing book two now.
Yes.
Of.
They will have another case inthe second book, will be in a
different place still SouthwestEngland.
Uh, but, but yes, the aim is forthem to, to develop across book
(34:26):
two and, and who knows if peoplelike, you know, both books then,
then beyond that.
Brett Benner (34:33):
Wow.
And then the development is, isit for a series or a movie?
Chris Chibnall (34:37):
Be for a series.
We're gonna do a six part seriesfor ITV, uh, which we'll
hopefully film next year.
Brett Benner (34:44):
Wow.
Do you, when you wrote this,because again, you've been
working in the, you know,entertainment business for so
long, and you've amassed, I'msure in your mind, such an, uh,
a diverse group of actors.
Did you ever write this bookwith people in mind where you
mm-hmm.
Hearing people's voices as youwere creating things?
Chris Chibnall (35:04):
No, I wasn't.
I was really interested in that.
Amazing.
'cause sometimes when I'mwriting scripts that does happen
and you think, oh, this is thatactor, or, or, um, somebody just
comes into your mind.
Or you might even have somebody,you know, a photograph of a few
actors pinned to the wall.
Um.
But not in this, not at all.
And even now, I don't know.
So I'm really looking forward tothe, that's what I wanted to ask
(35:25):
you.
I wanted say who,
Brett Benner (35:27):
yes.
I wanted to say, who is yourdream?
Who would be your dream?
Nicola and Harry.
Chris Chibnall (35:32):
I think the, the most foolish thing would be for
me to answer that question rightnow, Brett, because as soon as
we start casting it and we goout to people, that's, it's like
stuck.
Brett Benner (35:44):
Right.
Right.
Chris Chibnall (35:45):
You're great.
Their agents would be like, Iapparently they're not the
number one choice.
Right, right.
I actually Fair enough.
That is fair.
I genuinely don't know, and Ilove the casting process because
sometimes you are surprised.
Oh yeah.
I What an actor does with it,and that's part of what I love
is, is sometimes you think, I'mreally clear who this character
(36:05):
is, and then somebody comes inand reads it.
You go, oh my goodness.
There's so much more than I.
So, so yeah, I, uh, I'm reallyopen.
I, but I found it surprisingthat I didn't have actors in
mind, so with the, the book, Ijust fascinating.
Really think of the characters,not the actors with their,
that's amazing.
Brett Benner (36:24):
I have to take like a, a, it's almost like a
promo break to say, and I'm,now, I have to get a copy of the
audio book of this, becauseJessica Gunning is reading the
book, and I, when I saw that, Iwas like.
Wow, how amazing is that?
I, I think she's such anextraordinary actress, so I
absolutely, for, for all of youwho are audio book people, I, I
(36:46):
definitely think this isprobably a treat hearing her
read this.
Yes.
Chris Chibnall (36:49):
I think, I think we need to call her Golden Globe
and BAFTA Award-winning JessicaGunning.
Yes.
Yes.
You're, you're exactly right.
She, because, you know, gottakeep up to that.
It's happened in the past fewweeks, but, um, yeah, she's done
an amazing job on the audiobook.
She's brilliant.
When her name came up as apossibility and, and then, and,
(37:10):
and she was actually in Law andOrder uk, um, uh, she was, yeah,
she was a regular character and,um, but I, I've always loved her
work and so when she said yes todoing it and hearing what she's
done with it, how much fun she'sfound on it, how much
characterization she's broughtto it, it's fabulous.
So yeah.
Thank you for mentioning.
Brett Benner (37:27):
No, I just read, I read a, a great article where
she was talking about it and thechallenges of it and just doing
all the voices and, uh, but howshe and she spoke about law and
order and, and I'm sure you readthe article and, and she really
praised you and how great youwere, but, um, oh, that's nice.
Yeah, so I immediately was like.
Oh my God, now I'm gonna haveto, I I absolutely have to
listen to it.
And, and now, because it's sofresh, you couldn't even hear
(37:50):
samples of it yet.
Like I went into two differentplaces to try to listen to a
sample and there was nothing upyet.
So
Chris Chibnall (37:55):
anyway.
Ah, really?
Yeah.
Brett Benner (37:57):
Yeah.
But I'm, but, but that's sofantastic.
I just have to say the twopeople that I really like.
I'm just gonna tell you what Ithought.
Oh, you gonna cost it for usnow?
Well, all, all I, all I reallyjust an, I don't even know if
she's too old, but I keptthinking of, of Ruth Nega.
Yeah.
Who I just, thought's amazing.
But I just dunno if she's tooold.
Uh, but also, um, the otherperson who I thought could be
(38:19):
great is, is Sarah Green.
Um, who's on Bad Sisters?
Oh yeah.
She's cool.
Yeah, she's great.
But, and maybe it's because I'mjust immersed right now in slow
horses, but Jack Loudin would beso great as.
Harry, anyway,
Chris Chibnall (38:36):
those are just, they're all good.
So when we are looking forcasting director, Brett will be,
uh, will be,
Brett Benner (38:41):
uh, phoning you up.
Exactly, exactly.
I'll be available.
I just had like, before we,before we close out here, what
is it?
You, I just am so curious.
What is it you love to watch andwhat is it now you love to read?
Are you still like a and and,and if you have any reading
recommendations that's great oranything current you've read,
but what do you also like towatch?
Chris Chibnall (39:01):
Well, I really love I'm, I mean, I'm very
eclectic in all of those things.
Like everyone else, I'm a.
I adore severance.
I, I completely think that is a,oh my gosh, an absolute work of
genius.
I love it.
I love that it exists.
I love the care that they putinto it.
I love that they're driving memad.
It feels to me like a.
(39:23):
Once in a generation show in thesame way that Twin Peaks did in
the same way that the prisonerdid here in the uk where it is
like a, just a kind of, it's,it's to the, to the, to the side
of where everything else is, butit's speaking to us about our
existence.
Uh, I think it's brilliantlydirected.
I think it's beautifully shotand scored and, you know, it's,
it's.
(39:44):
It, it, it's excellence on everylevel.
So that's agreed.
Really great.
Um, uh, so that's my, that's thebig one right now., A lot of the
shows I would recommend areBritish shows, which you
probably don't get.
We have a, we have a great, um,a great show here.
It's currently airing, raceacross the world, uh, which.
Uh, around around is it likeamazing race?
(40:07):
I think it's very similar toAmazing Race.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's sort of done with theBBC public service ethos here,
so that's great.
And there was also a great showon Amazon recently, called Last
One Laughing.
I dunno whether there's been aUS version of that yet, but it's
basically, no, we're gonna havethat.
It's a, it's a thing where theyput, a load of comedians into a,
a locked room.
It's kind of like big brother,but with comedians, they put
(40:29):
them in a, a locked room for, Ithink it's six hours, and, uh,
that they're not allowed tolaugh.
And so that it's a, it's acompetition format and so they
are, they are in there alltrying to make each other laugh,
and the British version is castso well with such high caliber
comedians.
It's just a joyous thing in theworld right now.
(40:52):
It's really good.
I guess if you've got Amazon,Bri, it's probably there in the
US as well, so, so the Britishversion is there.
It's, oh, it's great.
Brett Benner (41:01):
Yeah, that sounds like such a no-brainer for it
would be developed here.
Chris Chibnall (41:05):
Yeah, it must be coming your way, but I think
there's a British version,there's an Irish version,
there's a Australian version.
So, and I think they're all onPrime.
So, so I, I mean, I dunno why we
Brett Benner (41:14):
wouldn't have that when we have the, one of the,
you know, the, the panels goingup at the people naked
underneath it, the, you know,the dating show with the Naked,
I mean Oh yeah.
Naked Attraction.
Yeah.
Which is the first time Iremember turning that on.
I'm like.
Are you kidding me?
Are, and you know, the womanbeing like, clearly he's a
showa, not a grower.
You know?
I was like, are what?
So yeah, like, all right.
(41:36):
I guess this is what we've cometo now.
Chris Chibnall (41:38):
Yeah.
That's every Saturday night inEngland now.
Brett Benner (41:41):
Yes, yes, yes.
But, but, but fun and anythingyou're reading lately, have you
had time to read?
Chris Chibnall (41:46):
Yeah, I haven't had loads.
The big thing I'm recommendingwas something that was
recommended to me, which was a,which was a, a, a crime novel,
um, which was a French crimenovel, a mystery Oh.
Um, called Blackwater Lilies byMichelle Busey.
Um, and.
It's set in the town of Vinni,or the Village of Veni.
Okay.
Which is where Monet paintedwater, his painting water
lilies, and a body is foundthere and it's so evocative.
(42:11):
It's so French, has the mostFrench detective ever.
It's so clever, full of greatcharacters, and it's a real page
turner.
So, you know, once you've, um,bought red and finished death at
the white heart, I commend Yes,exactly.
Lilies.
Brett Benner (42:27):
Yes.
And by no means, I mean,absolutely first you should be
getting Death of the White Heartby Chris Augh.
Well, Chris, this was fantastic.
I, I love just kind of pickingyour brain about all the
business stuff too,'cause Ithink it's fascinating.
Um, and, uh.
Please go out and get the book.
Buy Independent if you can.
(42:48):
It's, it's really so good.
It is.
It's also such a great, as we'regetting into the summer months,
like the perfect summer book.
'cause it will take your mindand like you will not figure it
out.
I did not figure it out.
I, I did not see the end coming,which I was so glad.
And God knows I tried.
I kept thinking, oh, this is it.
I have this all locked down andno so.
(43:10):
It completely surprised me atthe end, so that was great.
I'm so excited to know that it'sbeing adapted and I can't wait
to see who you get in this cast'cause what a great group of
characters, so,
Chris Chibnall (43:23):
oh, great.
Thank you Brett.
Thank you so much.
I've really enjoyed, uh, thisconversation.
Thank you for such greatquestions as well.
Brett Benner (43:30):
Thank you again, Chris, and if you've liked this
conversation or otherconversations you've heard on
this podcast, please considerliking and subscribing on your
podcast platform of choice.
And what would be really helpfulis if you could review the
podcast, five Stars would beamazing and it helps me continue
to bring conversations like thisto you.
Thanks again for listening, andI'll be back next week with
(43:52):
another episode from Behind theStack.
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