January 21, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with Cynthia Weiner to discuss her debut novel, A Gorgeous Excitement. They talk about New York in the eighties, the shocking inspiration behind the book, and we learn if Cynthia is more an optimist or pessimist.
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www.cynthiaweiner.com
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https://www.instagram.com/cynthiaweiner
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hello, it's Brett and welcome or welcome back to
(00:02):
behind the stack this week.
I am sitting down with authorCynthia Weiner, whose new book,
Glorious Excitement comes outtoday.
But before we get into that,there are a few new releases or
which are also coming out todaythat I wanted to talk about that
sound interesting to me.
The first is three wild dogs.
(00:23):
And The Truth, a memoir byMarkus Zusak.
Markus Zusak, of course, isknown for The Book Thief, but
this non fiction memoir is abouthis family adopting three
troublesome rescue dogs.
And as a dog lover, I think itsounds pretty good.
Pretty fantastic.
I think everybody in the worldwill be, uh, knocking down doors
(00:46):
to buy the latest installment byRebecca Yaros, Onk's Storm, the
third book in the fourth wing,series, and then also out today,
Something Rotten by AndrewLipstein, Which is a twisty,
thrilling tale of loyalty anddeceit.
Lovers and fools, AndrewLipstein's Something Rotten
proves that sometimes to bekind, you have to be cruel
(01:09):
beyond belief.
Uh, so I'm really interested inthat one.
Okay, so, let's get to today.
Speaking of new releases,Cynthia Weiner's A Gorgeous
Excitement is out.
I loved this book.
Love talking to Cynthia.
Let me tell you a little bitabout her.
Cynthia Weiner has had a longcareer writing and teaching
fiction.
Her short stories have beenpublished in Plowshares, The
(01:32):
Sun, and Epiphany.
And her story, Boyfriends, wasawarded a Pushcart Prize.
She's also the assistantdirector of the Writers Studio
in New York City.
A gorgeous excitement, her firstnovel was inspired by her
upbringing on New York's UpperEast Side in the 1980s and
particularly by the notoriousPreppy murder of 1986.
Weiner now lives in New York'sHudson Valley.
(01:56):
So enjoy this episode of Behindthe Stack.
First of all, thank you forbeing here.
I'm, I'm so happy to meet youand I loved your book.
I just thought it was, Oh mygosh, I thought it was so
fantastic.
Not only is it so compelling,but I also, it seems weird to
say, but I thought it was somuch of it was so very funny at
(02:20):
times.
So congrats.
It's
Cynthia Weiner (02:22):
so incredibly wonderful to be here and to, for
you to.
To have me.
I really appreciate it.
I love your podcast and I'm, I'mthrilled to be here.
So so much for having me.
Brett Benner (02:34):
There's a lot to cover and as I was writing
things out last night, I waslike, Oh my God, I have to talk
about this and this, but justfor Our listeners, our viewers,
do you have an elevator pitchfor the book?
Cynthia Weiner (02:43):
I will say maybe this is my elevator pitch.
The book opens with, it's, Isaid more of a kind of a, a
summary.
It opens with a, a flashboard atthe end of August when, you
know, a young woman, 18 year oldyoung woman's been found
strangled to death in CentralPark.
And the guy who did it, thiswildly handsome, popular, preppy
guy, claims that she died byaccident during rough steps that
(03:05):
she initiated.
so the book is inspired by thepreppy murder of 1986.
so we begin with that image andthen I go back to the start of
the summer, the start of June.
And we meet Nina Jacobs, who'sthe main character of the book,
um, an 18 year old living withher parents on the Upper East
Side, her profoundly depressedmother.
And Nina's desperate for twothings, to lose her virginity.
(03:29):
before she heads off to collegeand, she's the only one of her
friends who still has it.
And the second thing to help hermother, especially to help her
mother avoid electroshock,therapy with which she's been
threatened with.
So as the book goes on, Ninameets a new friend who
introduces her to cocaine, whichleads to all this sort of
reckless choices as she pursuesthis popular troubled guy.
(03:50):
And at the same time, her mothersuddenly seems to get better
with a new medication.
It turns out she's in a manicepisode.
So as the book goes on, thesetwo parallel, out of control,
excitement rises and the motheris in mania and Nina's doing
more and more cocaine and itescalates to what could be.
Oblivion for both of them.
Brett Benner (04:08):
So this is what's fascinating.
And because you have to explainthe Genesis for you.
And can you talk a little bitabout how this came about?
Because this is nearly asfascinating as the book itself.
Cynthia Weiner (04:20):
So I grew up in New York City.
Nina Jacobs is pretty similar tome.
I grew up in New York in theeighties.
I was a Jewish girl, kind of anoutsider in this Upper East
Side, very preppy, waspy, elite.
society.
There was this bar thateverybody went to called
Dorian's on the Upper East Side,and there was a guy there who
was extraordinarily handsome,very mesmerizing, and his name
(04:45):
was Robert Chambers.
He ultimately, at the end of thesummer of 1986, did strangle
Jennifer Levin to death inCentral Park.
and again, he did call it anaccident and said it was because
she was hurting him with roughsex.
so I knew him that summer.
I spent a lot of time atDorian's.
He was very close friends withsome very close friends of mine.
(05:05):
So I drank with him.
I spent time with him.
He was at my parents apartment.
Uh, we smoked pot together.
He, he, he yelled at me cause Ilike threw a little joint out
the window before it was done.
So, I mean, I knew him, youknow, a couple of weeks before
the actual murder.
I was, this makes it sound likesuch a drug drug ad, but I sort
(05:26):
of was.
So I was smoking hash with himbehind a different museum,
behind the Museum of NaturalHistory.
And I guess he was always behindmuseums.
And I was so out of it that he,I remember him carrying me to a
taxi.
So.
You know, he, he was this guythat, that, of all the people
you would think would never doanything, would never need to,
(05:46):
or want to hurt a woman or, or,you know, had girls throwing
themselves at him and, and,wound up, you know.
Yeah, killing this girl andseemingly out of nowhere because
they had had a relationshipalready, a sort of casual
relationship.
And yet on this night, somethinghappened and it erupted in this
terrible, terrible situation.
Brett Benner (06:05):
Obviously that's such a huge thing for all of you
and your friends.
But where did this then begin totake root for you as a, as a
story?
Like at what point in your lifewhere you're like, I've been
thinking about this a lot andthere's something here.
Cynthia Weiner (06:17):
I tried to write this as a short story over the
years.
Um, I tried to write, uh, fromthe point of view of the girl,
you know, who was killed.
I tried to write from his pointof view.
I tried to write from thepresent day, when he was out of
prison, you know, I just, I hadall these different things.
And at some point, I rememberedthat in fact, my mother, We did
have a manic episode one summer.
(06:38):
I remembered it was the samesummer.
Strangely, I didn't know thatfor years.
Suddenly I, I made thatconnection and that was the
beginning of, having a sense ofwhat the book could be about.
That it was, it was about thatthe incident would take place at
the end of the summer.
And I wanted to write about whatled up to it and that sense of
(07:00):
the 80s and the sense of, youknow, that kind of.
It's sort of very, knife edgedexhilaration of the 80s, where
everything was neon and excitingand Madonna, but there was this
darker underside to it about,about money and about elitism
and about cocaine and about,where a climb is leading to a
(07:20):
crash and you don't quite knowwhat's going there.
But maybe you feel a little bitof that under edge.
And I realized that was thestory I wanted to tell,
especially with the mother.
Also, I have four nieces and asthey got older, You know, I kind
of saw what they're navigatingin the world and the world of
boys and patriarchy and youknow, it seemed that things that
(07:41):
should have changed a lot over40 years, but maybe they hadn't
changed so much.
And so I was thinking a lotabout that also.
Another thing I was thinkingabout, there's a lot in the book
about antisemitism and about thegirl is Jewish and she lives in
this country.
world where the most successful,powerful people look down on
Jewish people.
And again, it seemed maybe over40 years, some things have
(08:04):
changed, but I don't think theyhave so much.
So that's something else Iwanted to approach in the book
too.
So all of those things sort ofcoalesced over the last few
years.
And that was when I, I found thestory to how to tell this story.
Brett Benner (08:15):
The book is getting an amazing comparisons
of Jessica Knowles Bright YellowWomen to Jay McNeary's Bright
Lights Big City.
It's funny because anotherperson.
As I was reading this, I thoughtit was, Brett Easton Ellis The
Shards, just very much becauseof the kind of excess and the
drugs and the alcohol and thesex and all of it.
And, you know, Easton Elliswrote effectively about his time
(08:35):
and his friends at the BuckleySchool.
But I thought of that andthought of you.
In writing this and how was ittaking a real incident from your
past surrounding real people andkind of extrapolating that, but
then creating something new outof that.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat process?
Yeah,
Cynthia Weiner (08:50):
I mean, it's, it's hard, it's hard to base a
fictional novel on a true crimeand on your own childhood in a
way.
I mean, obviously I changed allthe names.
I mean, it is a lot.
I mean, I really fictionalizedeverything, most things.
I wanted the same time period,so I, I did follow that summer
pretty closely in terms of when,you know, when the crime
(09:11):
occurred.
And then I also started thebook, just sort of
serendipitously is going tosound like a funny word for
this.
But.
It turned out that Carla, CarlaHanson, that model who had her
face slashed at the beginning ofthe summer, uh, it turned out it
was exactly on June 6th, whichis where I wanted to start the
book anyway.
So that, worked out as, as thebeginning as an image for the
(09:33):
beginning of the book, you knowwhat I, I found photographs of
people who were not the realpeople.
I put them up all over theoffice.
So I would look at them andremind myself that I was writing
fiction.
You know, I tried to change asmuch as I could in terms of the
characters, but I did keep a lotabout the city, which, which was
fun.
It was fun to, to write aboutthe real things.
(09:53):
I have a scene in the store,Think Big, which I don't know,
remembers, but where, you know,you'd have those huge, Uh,
paperclips or, or videos orwhatever it was and, so that was
fun.
It was fun to have some real 80sthings, you know, the Spirucci
and the Palladium and the Subwayand to have some of those that
were real, to set the scenes.
But in terms of the people, Itried very hard to keep
(10:16):
reminding myself to changepersonalities.
You know, things might'vestarted with real people, but
they certainly became compositesover time.
Brett Benner (10:23):
Sure, what I loved about this, two things.
Yeah.
And you've hit on both of them alittle bit.
The first is New York is almostits own character in the book.
And I love the way you'vecaptured it.
For some people who have noidea, I remember because I moved
to New York in 1990.
So it's slightly after when thiskind of took place.
But even that 1990, it was stilla far cry from the New York that
(10:45):
Exists now.
And, you know, that was whentime square was just beginning
to get it's makeover from Disneyeffectively.
But I remember going in, youknow, in my high school, we had
a very active thespian group andevery year we'd take a New York
trip and that was like a bigdeal.
So I remember going as a 16 yearold into New York and in
hindsight, and this is why Iwant to ask you so much about
living in that city and being ayoung woman in that city at that
(11:08):
time.
But I remember thinking.
Were my parents crazy?
I was from Pittsburgh and theylet, you know, chaperoned to go
to New York City.
And I remember running, likehaving some kind of peacoat
cause I thought it was cool andrunning into Times Square, which
was that time like porn houseseverywhere, which, so like,
just, I'd love to hear your talkto like talking about.
(11:30):
What that experience andarguably then for, for, for
Nina's experience of being ayoung woman in that city.
And, you know, a lot of whatshe, where she is, is like the
Upper East Side, but you wereeverywhere or she was
everywhere.
Cynthia Weiner (11:45):
Another reason, obviously it had to take place
in the eighties was, you know,there were no cell phones.
there was no, you know, GPS,your, Obviously your parents
couldn't find you, you know, asyou said, wherever you were,
they just, they sent you offand, you didn't, they didn't
hear from us again until maybewe came home later that night.
So it was just such a differenttime.
My parents were out every nightdoing their own thing.
(12:07):
They were so uninvolved.
I mean, all the parents were souninvolved in, at least in my
circle of friends, in our lives,they were, they were socializing
and I don't know where theywere, but they had no, I.
interest in us, but they kind ofhad no interest in us.
You go to school and you'd say,okay, I'll be home for dinner or
else I'm going to so and so'shouse or I'm sleeping over, they
didn't call.
We didn't call them.
(12:27):
So, so we kind of did whateverwe wanted.
And I know I wasn't hangingaround Times Square that much.
I have to admit, I did get myfake ID there, of course.
But we went to the park all thetime.
We just had parties in the park.
You know, I think the drinkingage had just changed to 21,
maybe.
So you could still.
Get anything you wanted.
(12:47):
I remember friends would sleepover.
We would sneak out this, I can'tbelieve in the middle of the
night and just go to just kindof gross bars on meeting you and
strange men.
And then we would just go home.
Yeah.
There was a real sense ofinvincibility, which I imagine
everyone feels all over thecountry, you know, maybe at that
age where it's just, I thinkthat, and that was another part
(13:07):
of this case.
Of course, that was just so, sosickening.
It was.
And, you know, you, you, youfeel invincible at that age and
you just think, or at least Ithought nothing bad is ever
going to happen, nothing badseemed to be happening.
And, you know, you, we went,we'd go to the park to watch the
sunrise, a big group of girls.
We'd sleep over at someone'shouse and then we'd go to the
park and, you know, some grossguy came along, just push him
(13:29):
away or whatever it just didn't,you know, I, I'd be sunbathing
in the park and I'd look up andsomeone was, you know, over me,
a guy and, you Stuff pants downand I would just be like, stop,
you know, and then I'd run away.
Like, it just felt like escape.
Brett Benner (13:43):
Yeah.
Cynthia Weiner (13:44):
Then we could all go to nightclubs.
There was a thing that happenedwhen I was in high school that
studio 54, uh, for, so I justfound all of these old cards
from there for some reason,started addressing high school
students.
They wanted high schools.
I, it's.
seems crazy now, but, I startedinviting all the high school
kids to Studio 54.
(14:04):
This was in the early eighties.
And so we'd all go to Studio 54all the time.
My parents had pads of thesehigh school, I mean, I'm sorry,
of these invitations to Studio54 that they used as notepads.
We had so many of them sent tothe house that you were supposed
to distribute to other friends.
I posted one of them on myInstagram.
I found one of them.
Brett Benner (14:22):
Well, no, I have to read this because I, I did
take a screenshot of this butthis is a card at the top that
says, a list of names, but theone that stood out to me, of
course, was Tom Selleck, and itsaid, invite you to a preppy
party at Studio 54, Friday,October 15th, 830 to 1030 preppy
dress come early, stay late.
(14:42):
Now, what I love is, um, and allof you, I will link, Cynthia's
Instagram below.
So you can see this yourself,but she attached this to part of
her journal or her diary, whichsays Sunday, October 17th.
This weekend was interesting onFriday.
The song went quite well afterschool.
I went to Katie's and NikkiBrown came over that night.
We got a little stone that wentto studio with an arrow pointing
(15:05):
up as if, you know, just toconfirm, uh, which was like a
mob scene.
There was a huge line and peoplewere pushing and fighting and
throwing up.
I love that so much because notonly do you encapsulate the
moment, but also you as justthis young girl.
It's so it literally could havebeen my daughter.
(15:26):
I loved that.
But that's crazy that they wereeffectively almost recruiting.
Yeah,
Cynthia Weiner (15:30):
all under age.
I mean, we were all under eight.
Like we were all 16 years old.
I don't even understand.
Brett Benner (15:35):
And never carded probably.
I did
Cynthia Weiner (15:37):
have my, you know, my Times Square fake ID
that said.
Cynthia Smith or something.
I don't even know.
And I'm sure the year I put, I'msure I made myself like 50 by
mistake.
Like I didn't even understand,you know, what year I was
supposed to put.
Brett Benner (15:48):
Did you used to drill down with your girlfriends
and say, tell me when yourbirthday was again.
Tell me when your birthday wasagain.
Tell me your name.
Make
Cynthia Weiner (15:55):
sure you have it right.
Um, but no, we barely ever gotasked and there were nightclubs
all over the city.
We went to area, to Palladium.
What were some of the others?
Danceteria, I went on my, thewoman I babysat for set me up on
a date with this guy she knew.
And we went to limelight theopening night for that
Brett Benner (16:16):
limelight.
That was the one in the church,correct?
Cynthia Weiner (16:19):
Yeah.
So just nightclubs were sort ofthis, this another place to go.
Yeah.
It was a lot of fun.
And again, my parents, I guessthey just They just thought it
was fun.
They were just like, all right,they knew where I was going.
I mean, I think I remembersaying, I'm going, yeah, I know.
I would 54 or I'm going, I thinkthey just thought it was, I
guess they thought it was fun.
Brett Benner (16:38):
And then it was just youth.
And I'm sure they viewed you asyou were being responsible.
You generally came home when yousaid you would.
I wrote a, I wrote a listbecause for, uh, our listeners,
our viewers, because this wasagain, so fun.
And this is only a part of someof the references that are made
in the book to this time period.
And for anyone who is of thattime period, you will go crazy.
(17:00):
Cause I was reading this lastnight to my business partner and
she was howling.
So this is just some of thethings, and this covers a range
of music, everything.
Who's the boss tab, slim, fast,the clash.
Mylanta, Talking Heads,Walkmans, Slow Gin Fizz,
Newports, Parliaments,Parliaments, Bagot College, Eye
(17:21):
of the Tiger, Le Sport Sac,Swatch, Endless Love, Kissing
Potion Lip Gloss, The Fly, TheChamp, Quiet Riot, Prince,
Twisted Sister, Rat, which whenthen last night we had to sing a
big round of round and round,Culture Club, Dianetics, Bad
(17:43):
Girls, Lacoste, Dippity Doo,Jiffy Pop, The Palladium,
Polaroids, Oh my god, I lovethis one, Legs, Eggs, I used to
play with my mother's as well,Oh my god, uh, Actifed,
Dynamints, and Mary Kay.
Oh my God, I could go on becauseI just was like pulling.
I was going like page by page.
You must've had a, just a, uh,the greatest time pulling up.
(18:06):
It was really fun.
I was just
Cynthia Weiner (18:07):
looking for my kissing potion.
Cause I found, I can't find it,but I, I bought myself a little,
I found a place where, where,uh, Uh, they still sell it.
Um, you know what's funny?
You'd think these references,I'd have to dig to get them, but
they were just right at the topof my, I remembered all of, I
can remember everything you justsaid.
I'm like, don't those stillexist?
I don't even know if they still,I think, because they're so,
(18:27):
they're so still in my mind.
It was really fun.
It was really, and I want to sayalso, I mean, part of the reason
that when you mentioned that thebook was funny, I'm really
pleased to hear that.
And I also want to say that, youknow, Nina doesn't know what's
going to happen at the end ofthe summer.
So I, I felt funny sometimesbecause I was writing a book
about this terrible tragedy, butI also, I wanted it to be from
(18:50):
the point of view of this youngwoman, even though it's third
person.
So, that's, So I, I, cause shedoesn't know.
So to her, she's just living hereighties, you know, her best
eighties life.
Brett Benner (19:00):
Yeah.
All of it.
I also thought you, you need toput together or have someone put
together a It is a Spotifyplaylist.
You really do.
Cause there is so much youreferenced here.
That's so evocative.
And I was like, Oh my God, allright, so let's talk about Nina.
I think for so many people,she's going to be an
identifiable character.
I mean, for her, she's, youknow, as you spoke earlier,
(19:22):
she's Jewish, feeling like anoutsider in this group of kind
of, you know, WASP y people.
But I think she speaks toanybody who's ever really felt
like an outsider in any kind ofcapacity.
But she's also this young womanwho is.
Kind of, navigating that momentof, still being a girl but
(19:42):
becoming a woman, still reallyaware of her sexuality and
wanting something and kind ofthe convergence of, is, am I in
love with this person?
Am I in lust with this person?
And, there was many times when Iwas reading the book, I had to
stop for a second because I keptsaying, these young women are,
are, are seniors in high school,which is exactly where my
(20:02):
daughter was.
And it would kind of floor mefor a moment because of the way
they were living and their livesin this New York jungle where,
you know, arguably Gardner Reedis not the only predator in the
city.
Cynthia Weiner (20:17):
Yeah.
Someone, someone described mybook the other day as, um, they
put a tag on it, drugs andlonging so much with the book is
about particularly longing.
You know, that was something Ifelt so much when I was in his
age, and the age of herdaughter.
I, I felt so much your, I didn'teven know what it was for, but
to be, to be looked at and to bepaid attention to and to be
(20:41):
important in some way or forsomebody to be significant.
Right.
You know, the.
The upside of my parents, youknow, sort of being on their own
was that I had so much freedom,but the downside I think was
that I felt very, Insignificantin a lot of ways.
And, and then, and added on toby being Jewish and, and not,
you know, not having knownpeople throughout generations as
(21:01):
they all knew each other foryears and not feeling very
pretty when I was young andlooking different from most of
the other, or many of the othergirls at the time, I know I felt
in that Nina just wants to be.
You know, looked on as just, as,as, as, as somebody, somebody to
be, to be, to be, to be takenaccount of.
And something about Gardner, youknow, makes her feel that if he
(21:25):
likes her and if he, if shemanages to lose her virginity to
him, which I don't even know ifshe knows what that, I mean, she
knows what it means literally,but I don't even.
It's about that.
It's just, it's almost like astamp of approval or something.
She'll have a confidence.
She believes, or she'll feellike, okay, I've made it now or
I'm okay now.
And I think that's what I know.
(21:46):
I felt a lot.
I felt through my whole life andyou know, I mean, it wasn't just
when I was 18, it lasted for along time.
That feeling of, if thishappens, I'll be okay.
You know, or if this happens,I'll be somebody that's
important someone special.
Special.
And I think that that's, that'swhat, that's what she's looking
for.
And I hope that that'srelatable, as you said, to, to
(22:07):
people, because it feels veryuniversal to me, that kind of
vulnerability.
Brett Benner (22:11):
Yeah.
But it's so interesting becauseeven among her friends or
frenemies of this other kind ofgirl groups, in terms of
Gardner, there, there's so manyof them that are vying for his
attention.
And, and so I.
I keep thinking all of thesegirls probably feel a facet of
the same thing and feeldifferent for some particular
(22:32):
reason, which that is certainlyuniversal.
I don't know that, you know,even among the popular girls
say, and this is something I'vewatched very much with my
daughter.
There's also that hierarchy andwhere are you within that
hierarchy?
And even if you're at the top,like gardener's girlfriend at
the beginning, it still doesn'tmean anything.
And it means the fall can bethat much more precipitous, you
(22:54):
know?
I
Cynthia Weiner (22:55):
just spoke to my niece yesterday, who's 18 and
she's at college and she's goingthrough sorority rush and.
You know, it's, it's still, allthose things are still going on.
And I don't know if it'sdifferent now.
When I was younger, you didn'tadmit to that kind of
vulnerability.
I think it might be a littledifferent now where, or people
are a little bit more open aboutit.
(23:15):
When I was growing up, it wasnot.
That was not cool.
That was not it was everythingwas about being cool and being
cynical and nothing bothers youand nothing matters And you
know, everything is likeinteresting as I put in my
journal, you know, it You knowmy another niece told me when
she got to college they all didwhat they call a trauma dump I
mean we were not doing that, youknow where they all sit around
in a room together and discusstheir trauma.
(23:37):
Um, we didn't do that then.
That was definitely notsomething in the 80s and not
part of my childhood.
So it may be, I don't, I don'tknow if it's different now, but
it was certainly that compoundedthat if you felt lonely and if
you felt, insignificant or, youknow, it was, it was, you just
didn't discuss it.
And I do remember one point whenI was young.
I was at, I was at camp and Iwas sad and I was crying to a
(24:00):
friend and she was like, uh, uh,like, no, this is not, we don't,
this is, she's veryuncomfortable.
And it was just like, we don'tdo this.
Like, this is not, and I don'teven know if she spoke to me
again the whole summer.
So when I think about all thesegirls, they don't, they don't
tell each other how they reallyfeel, which I think makes it
even harder for Nina
Brett Benner (24:20):
She meets this incredible, young girl,
Stephanie.
Who is just like, A meteor
Cynthia Weiner (24:25):
and who is open and who is sweet and who thinks
Nina is great.
I mean, she didn't grow up inthat world.
I mean, it is great, you know,but she, she sees Nina in the
way Nina's always wished to beseen.
And I had a friend like I wasaround that age, a friend from
outside of my.
Friend group who I met, who sawme that way, and it was the most
wonderful experience and I stillwanted to recreate that for Nina
(24:47):
also, you know, and have in thebook where you have a friend
who's not your, your usualfriend group who, who,
Stephanie's just one of thosepeople who's more open-hearted
and she talks about emotions andshe thinks Nina's great and.
What a wonderful, you know,wonderful friend to have
Brett Benner (25:05):
yeah, they're a great counterbalance to each
other because she's, she's sucha kind of extrovert that she
pulls out things in Nina that I,I think Nina had there, but
wouldn't necessarily havethought, but what a great way to
have it pulled out by someonewho is so living out and, and
not afraid and kind of fearlessin whatever she does.
(25:26):
It's a, it's a really coolrelationship to watch develop.
I want to just talk aboutFrancis and Nina's mother
because, uh, you know, as youexplained in the beginning, she
is such an integral part of, of,uh, of this story and she is
kind of a train wreck thatbegins to escalate as the book
goes on.
One of the things that I lovedabout the book is I said there's
(25:49):
kind of an underlying dread thatexists in the book but it's not
necessarily from the places youthink it's going to be.
Like you get to the first partyou know that it's going to end
with this girl being strangledin the park but there's so much
that leads up to that the kindof under the surface tension and
a large part of that I think.
Is due to the relationship ofNina and her mother and the
(26:10):
unpredictability of what hermother's going to do next.
Cynthia Weiner (26:13):
if anybody, or you can imagine, or if you
happen to grow up with or knowsomebody, uh, you know, a friend
or family member who'sdepressed.
if that person starts to feelbetter, it's the most joyful
thing because witnessing someoneup close who is that hopeless
and that sad is, is, you know,it's, it's obviously more
(26:37):
painful for them, but it'sincredibly painful to witness,
you know, to be there, to justsee someone you love in that
state.
And so to see someone, you know,You love and come out of that
state, is amazing and wonderful.
And, and so I was trying toportray that Nina, you know, can
(26:57):
see maybe it's not so great.
And the father also who's, youknow, his father is, is, is very
devoted to Francis and, andloves her so much and also wants
to see her happy.
And so it kind of blinds themto, what's not so great going
on.
That, you know, she's, she'sdisplaying behavior that's.
you know, kind of kooky and, andodd.
(27:17):
And if they knew any better,they might understand that it's,
it's, she's not, she's not well,but, but, but she appears happy.
And so to them, her happinessoverrides any sense of, of what
could really, you know, of whatcould, of rationality and what
could really, yeah.
Brett Benner (27:36):
Yeah.
And it's, you also wonder too,again, this being a time piece
of sorts, what that relationshipand how that would have changed
had it been now, how muchquicker you would have come to
some kind of diagnosis, how youwould have understood and had a
language to be able to have aconversation about it.
But there wasn't that, you know,there was just things that we
just didn't.
know about.
And so you kind of just kind ofwent with it.
(27:57):
And there's a there's a scenethat happens later in the book
when her mother's kind of onthis manic episode, and they
come across a policeman and hisdog.
I won't go into it, but it's souncomfortable and so horrific
and poor Nina, say, poor, poorNina.
And frankly, the poor policemanand, and, and poor dog.
(28:18):
Um, one thing I wanted to talkwith you about that you talk
about in the book, and you'llhave to explain this to me.
You talk in it about Lee'spersonality test.
Is this a real thing?
Cynthia Weiner (28:32):
In fact, in real life, one of my memories, this
all came out of, so, so, do youwant to say anything about it
first then I can say where itcame out of?
Brett Benner (28:39):
Yeah, there's this point later in the book when
Nina is talking about this thingcalled the Leeds personality
test and, and she says, what it,what it really does is, um,
they'll give you a, a, a, a, aseries of words and you're
supposed to kind of give yourfirst reaction to that word and
depending on how you react toit, whether it's, it could be a
(29:01):
negative or a positiveconnotation, kind of talks about
the kind of person you are,whether you're an optimist or a
pessimist, is that basically it?
It's
Cynthia Weiner (29:09):
lead.
I don't know that Lee made it.
This was a real test though,that I found.
And the reason all of thishappened was one of my strongest
memories of Robert Chambers wasgiving him a personality test.
And he said his favorite animalwas a gazelle.
And I have no idea why, but thatstays in my mind so much.
I wish I could find it.
I don't have it anymore.
But, so I wanted to includepersonality.
(29:29):
Plus, we used to give each otherpersonality tests all the time.
That was such a thing.
I don't know if girls still dothat.
But, and that, and that made youkind of, you know, You know, it,
it brought attention to youbecause you'd say to somebody,
Oh, I want to give you apersonality test.
And of course everyone paysattention because everyone wants
to hear about their personality.
The one you're referring to wasa real test I found where I
think one of the examples waslike, okay, so, um, if you hear
(29:50):
the phrase Rocky road, if you'rean optimist, you think of ice
cream.
If you're a pessimist, you thinkof like a tough journey, you
know, or if you, if you hear, Idon't remember what some of the
other ones.
Brett Benner (30:01):
Okay.
Well, I have some for you.
That's why I have these up.
Cause I did, I did yours in thebook with everyone in the house
last night.
Like I sat around, like, I mean,everybody, I didn't tell them
anything.
gave them all the tests, and theonly consistent among everyone
was, everyone said Rocky Roadfor them.
The association was positive,was ice cream.
(30:21):
Right.
So, but everybody else for themost part, we're all pessimists,
which was, you know, maybe it'sthe time, but I was like, this
is hilarious.
Okay.
So here I have a few for you towant to ask you words.
Cause I went with everybody.
I'm like, guys, I need you topitch in.
I need to ask her these.
say the word, you say the firstthing you think of in terms of a
definition.
First word, lie, L I E.
Cynthia Weiner (30:44):
You're telling an untruth.
Brett Benner (30:45):
Buckle.
Cynthia Weiner (30:46):
A thing on a belt.
Okay.
Brett Benner (30:48):
Bolt.
Cynthia Weiner (30:49):
I say lightning, like a lightning bolt.
Brett Benner (30:50):
Okay, so our results, here we go.
So for the word lie.
You said to tell an untruth.
That would be the negative.
The positive would be to putsomething down or lay down
buckle.
You said a shoe or a belt.
That's the positive.
The buckle would be to collapse.
That would be like the negative.
(31:11):
If something buckled and wentdown.
Uh, and bolt, you said lightningbolt, which is going to be
anything.
This is funny.
Cause usually bolt it says liketo fasten something or secure
something.
The negative would be to leavequickly to get out.
So I think you straddle a lineis what I'm saying.
I think you're very much, you'rethe optimist and the pessimist.
You're not one of the others.
Oh, that's
Cynthia Weiner (31:31):
great.
Thank you for giving me that.
That was.
It's really fun.
I don't even know why I justsaid that because I like never
think about horoscopes and don'tbelieve anything.
And yet I am.
I'm like, I'm always like thebook.
I'm always in between.
I'm always all writers areright.
Brett Benner (31:47):
Probably to find the balance.
Well, this has been so fun youare delightful.
I I'm so excited for you.
The book, once again, is agorgeous excitement.
It's out today.
So be sure to get it, hopefullyfrom your, uh, independent
bookstore.
But again, Cynthia,congratulations.
I'm so excited for you.
Um, it's just a fantastic,
Cynthia Weiner (32:07):
thank you so much.
I so appreciate it.
Hello, it's Brett and welcome or welcome back to
(00:02):
behind the stack this week.
I am sitting down with authorCynthia Weiner, whose new book,
Glorious Excitement comes outtoday.
But before we get into that,there are a few new releases or
which are also coming out todaythat I wanted to talk about that
sound interesting to me.
The first is three wild dogs.
(00:23):
And The Truth, a memoir byMarkus Zusak.
Markus Zusak, of course, isknown for The Book Thief, but
this non fiction memoir is abouthis family adopting three
troublesome rescue dogs.
And as a dog lover, I think itsounds pretty good.
Pretty fantastic.
I think everybody in the worldwill be, uh, knocking down doors
(00:46):
to buy the latest installment byRebecca Yaros, Onk's Storm, the
third book in the fourth wing,series, and then also out today,
Something Rotten by AndrewLipstein, Which is a twisty,
thrilling tale of loyalty anddeceit.
Lovers and fools, AndrewLipstein's Something Rotten
proves that sometimes to bekind, you have to be cruel
(01:09):
beyond belief.
Uh, so I'm really interested inthat one.
Okay, so, let's get to today.
Speaking of new releases,Cynthia Weiner's A Gorgeous
Excitement is out.
I loved this book.
Love talking to Cynthia.
Let me tell you a little bitabout her.
Cynthia Weiner has had a longcareer writing and teaching
fiction.
Her short stories have beenpublished in Plowshares, The
(01:32):
Sun, and Epiphany.
And her story, Boyfriends, wasawarded a Pushcart Prize.
She's also the assistantdirector of the Writers Studio
in New York City.
A gorgeous excitement, her firstnovel was inspired by her
upbringing on New York's UpperEast Side in the 1980s and
particularly by the notoriousPreppy murder of 1986.
Weiner now lives in New York'sHudson Valley.
(01:56):
So enjoy this episode of Behindthe Stack.
First of all, thank you forbeing here.
I'm, I'm so happy to meet youand I loved your book.
I just thought it was, Oh mygosh, I thought it was so
fantastic.
Not only is it so compelling,but I also, it seems weird to
say, but I thought it was somuch of it was so very funny at
(02:20):
times.
So congrats.
It's
Cynthia Weiner (02:22):
so incredibly wonderful to be here and to, for
you to.
To have me.
I really appreciate it.
I love your podcast and I'm, I'mthrilled to be here.
So so much for having me.
Brett Benner (02:34):
There's a lot to cover and as I was writing
things out last night, I waslike, Oh my God, I have to talk
about this and this, but justfor Our listeners, our viewers,
do you have an elevator pitchfor the book?
Cynthia Weiner (02:43):
I will say maybe this is my elevator pitch.
The book opens with, it's, Isaid more of a kind of a, a
summary.
It opens with a, a flashboard atthe end of August when, you
know, a young woman, 18 year oldyoung woman's been found
strangled to death in CentralPark.
And the guy who did it, thiswildly handsome, popular, preppy
guy, claims that she died byaccident during rough steps that
(03:05):
she initiated.
so the book is inspired by thepreppy murder of 1986.
so we begin with that image andthen I go back to the start of
the summer, the start of June.
And we meet Nina Jacobs, who'sthe main character of the book,
um, an 18 year old living withher parents on the Upper East
Side, her profoundly depressedmother.
And Nina's desperate for twothings, to lose her virginity.
(03:29):
before she heads off to collegeand, she's the only one of her
friends who still has it.
And the second thing to help hermother, especially to help her
mother avoid electroshock,therapy with which she's been
threatened with.
So as the book goes on, Ninameets a new friend who
introduces her to cocaine, whichleads to all this sort of
reckless choices as she pursuesthis popular troubled guy.
(03:50):
And at the same time, her mothersuddenly seems to get better
with a new medication.
It turns out she's in a manicepisode.
So as the book goes on, thesetwo parallel, out of control,
excitement rises and the motheris in mania and Nina's doing
more and more cocaine and itescalates to what could be.
Oblivion for both of them.
Brett Benner (04:08):
So this is what's fascinating.
And because you have to explainthe Genesis for you.
And can you talk a little bitabout how this came about?
Because this is nearly asfascinating as the book itself.
Cynthia Weiner (04:20):
So I grew up in New York City.
Nina Jacobs is pretty similar tome.
I grew up in New York in theeighties.
I was a Jewish girl, kind of anoutsider in this Upper East
Side, very preppy, waspy, elite.
society.
There was this bar thateverybody went to called
Dorian's on the Upper East Side,and there was a guy there who
was extraordinarily handsome,very mesmerizing, and his name
(04:45):
was Robert Chambers.
He ultimately, at the end of thesummer of 1986, did strangle
Jennifer Levin to death inCentral Park.
and again, he did call it anaccident and said it was because
she was hurting him with roughsex.
so I knew him that summer.
I spent a lot of time atDorian's.
He was very close friends withsome very close friends of mine.
(05:05):
So I drank with him.
I spent time with him.
He was at my parents apartment.
Uh, we smoked pot together.
He, he, he yelled at me cause Ilike threw a little joint out
the window before it was done.
So, I mean, I knew him, youknow, a couple of weeks before
the actual murder.
I was, this makes it sound likesuch a drug drug ad, but I sort
(05:26):
of was.
So I was smoking hash with himbehind a different museum,
behind the Museum of NaturalHistory.
And I guess he was always behindmuseums.
And I was so out of it that he,I remember him carrying me to a
taxi.
So.
You know, he, he was this guythat, that, of all the people
you would think would never doanything, would never need to,
(05:46):
or want to hurt a woman or, or,you know, had girls throwing
themselves at him and, and,wound up, you know.
Yeah, killing this girl andseemingly out of nowhere because
they had had a relationshipalready, a sort of casual
relationship.
And yet on this night, somethinghappened and it erupted in this
terrible, terrible situation.
Brett Benner (06:05):
Obviously that's such a huge thing for all of you
and your friends.
But where did this then begin totake root for you as a, as a
story?
Like at what point in your lifewhere you're like, I've been
thinking about this a lot andthere's something here.
Cynthia Weiner (06:17):
I tried to write this as a short story over the
years.
Um, I tried to write, uh, fromthe point of view of the girl,
you know, who was killed.
I tried to write from his pointof view.
I tried to write from thepresent day, when he was out of
prison, you know, I just, I hadall these different things.
And at some point, I rememberedthat in fact, my mother, We did
have a manic episode one summer.
(06:38):
I remembered it was the samesummer.
Strangely, I didn't know thatfor years.
Suddenly I, I made thatconnection and that was the
beginning of, having a sense ofwhat the book could be about.
That it was, it was about thatthe incident would take place at
the end of the summer.
And I wanted to write about whatled up to it and that sense of
(07:00):
the 80s and the sense of, youknow, that kind of.
It's sort of very, knife edgedexhilaration of the 80s, where
everything was neon and excitingand Madonna, but there was this
darker underside to it about,about money and about elitism
and about cocaine and about,where a climb is leading to a
(07:20):
crash and you don't quite knowwhat's going there.
But maybe you feel a little bitof that under edge.
And I realized that was thestory I wanted to tell,
especially with the mother.
Also, I have four nieces and asthey got older, You know, I kind
of saw what they're navigatingin the world and the world of
boys and patriarchy and youknow, it seemed that things that
(07:41):
should have changed a lot over40 years, but maybe they hadn't
changed so much.
And so I was thinking a lotabout that also.
Another thing I was thinkingabout, there's a lot in the book
about antisemitism and about thegirl is Jewish and she lives in
this country.
world where the most successful,powerful people look down on
Jewish people.
And again, it seemed maybe over40 years, some things have
(08:04):
changed, but I don't think theyhave so much.
So that's something else Iwanted to approach in the book
too.
So all of those things sort ofcoalesced over the last few
years.
And that was when I, I found thestory to how to tell this story.
Brett Benner (08:15):
The book is getting an amazing comparisons
of Jessica Knowles Bright YellowWomen to Jay McNeary's Bright
Lights Big City.
It's funny because anotherperson.
As I was reading this, I thoughtit was, Brett Easton Ellis The
Shards, just very much becauseof the kind of excess and the
drugs and the alcohol and thesex and all of it.
And, you know, Easton Elliswrote effectively about his time
(08:35):
and his friends at the BuckleySchool.
But I thought of that andthought of you.
In writing this and how was ittaking a real incident from your
past surrounding real people andkind of extrapolating that, but
then creating something new outof that.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat process?
Yeah,
Cynthia Weiner (08:50):
I mean, it's, it's hard, it's hard to base a
fictional novel on a true crimeand on your own childhood in a
way.
I mean, obviously I changed allthe names.
I mean, it is a lot.
I mean, I really fictionalizedeverything, most things.
I wanted the same time period,so I, I did follow that summer
pretty closely in terms of when,you know, when the crime
(09:11):
occurred.
And then I also started thebook, just sort of
serendipitously is going tosound like a funny word for
this.
But.
It turned out that Carla, CarlaHanson, that model who had her
face slashed at the beginning ofthe summer, uh, it turned out it
was exactly on June 6th, whichis where I wanted to start the
book anyway.
So that, worked out as, as thebeginning as an image for the
(09:33):
beginning of the book, you knowwhat I, I found photographs of
people who were not the realpeople.
I put them up all over theoffice.
So I would look at them andremind myself that I was writing
fiction.
You know, I tried to change asmuch as I could in terms of the
characters, but I did keep a lotabout the city, which, which was
fun.
It was fun to, to write aboutthe real things.
(09:53):
I have a scene in the store,Think Big, which I don't know,
remembers, but where, you know,you'd have those huge, Uh,
paperclips or, or videos orwhatever it was and, so that was
fun.
It was fun to have some real 80sthings, you know, the Spirucci
and the Palladium and the Subwayand to have some of those that
were real, to set the scenes.
But in terms of the people, Itried very hard to keep
(10:16):
reminding myself to changepersonalities.
You know, things might'vestarted with real people, but
they certainly became compositesover time.
Brett Benner (10:23):
Sure, what I loved about this, two things.
Yeah.
And you've hit on both of them alittle bit.
The first is New York is almostits own character in the book.
And I love the way you'vecaptured it.
For some people who have noidea, I remember because I moved
to New York in 1990.
So it's slightly after when thiskind of took place.
But even that 1990, it was stilla far cry from the New York that
(10:45):
Exists now.
And, you know, that was whentime square was just beginning
to get it's makeover from Disneyeffectively.
But I remember going in, youknow, in my high school, we had
a very active thespian group andevery year we'd take a New York
trip and that was like a bigdeal.
So I remember going as a 16 yearold into New York and in
hindsight, and this is why Iwant to ask you so much about
living in that city and being ayoung woman in that city at that
(11:08):
time.
But I remember thinking.
Were my parents crazy?
I was from Pittsburgh and theylet, you know, chaperoned to go
to New York City.
And I remember running, likehaving some kind of peacoat
cause I thought it was cool andrunning into Times Square, which
was that time like porn houseseverywhere, which, so like,
just, I'd love to hear your talkto like talking about.
(11:30):
What that experience andarguably then for, for, for
Nina's experience of being ayoung woman in that city.
And, you know, a lot of whatshe, where she is, is like the
Upper East Side, but you wereeverywhere or she was
everywhere.
Cynthia Weiner (11:45):
Another reason, obviously it had to take place
in the eighties was, you know,there were no cell phones.
there was no, you know, GPS,your, Obviously your parents
couldn't find you, you know, asyou said, wherever you were,
they just, they sent you offand, you didn't, they didn't
hear from us again until maybewe came home later that night.
So it was just such a differenttime.
My parents were out every nightdoing their own thing.
(12:07):
They were so uninvolved.
I mean, all the parents were souninvolved in, at least in my
circle of friends, in our lives,they were, they were socializing
and I don't know where theywere, but they had no, I.
interest in us, but they kind ofhad no interest in us.
You go to school and you'd say,okay, I'll be home for dinner or
else I'm going to so and so'shouse or I'm sleeping over, they
didn't call.
We didn't call them.
(12:27):
So, so we kind of did whateverwe wanted.
And I know I wasn't hangingaround Times Square that much.
I have to admit, I did get myfake ID there, of course.
But we went to the park all thetime.
We just had parties in the park.
You know, I think the drinkingage had just changed to 21,
maybe.
So you could still.
Get anything you wanted.
(12:47):
I remember friends would sleepover.
We would sneak out this, I can'tbelieve in the middle of the
night and just go to just kindof gross bars on meeting you and
strange men.
And then we would just go home.
Yeah.
There was a real sense ofinvincibility, which I imagine
everyone feels all over thecountry, you know, maybe at that
age where it's just, I thinkthat, and that was another part
(13:07):
of this case.
Of course, that was just so, sosickening.
It was.
And, you know, you, you, youfeel invincible at that age and
you just think, or at least Ithought nothing bad is ever
going to happen, nothing badseemed to be happening.
And, you know, you, we went,we'd go to the park to watch the
sunrise, a big group of girls.
We'd sleep over at someone'shouse and then we'd go to the
park and, you know, some grossguy came along, just push him
(13:29):
away or whatever it just didn't,you know, I, I'd be sunbathing
in the park and I'd look up andsomeone was, you know, over me,
a guy and, you Stuff pants downand I would just be like, stop,
you know, and then I'd run away.
Like, it just felt like escape.
Brett Benner (13:43):
Yeah.
Cynthia Weiner (13:44):
Then we could all go to nightclubs.
There was a thing that happenedwhen I was in high school that
studio 54, uh, for, so I justfound all of these old cards
from there for some reason,started addressing high school
students.
They wanted high schools.
I, it's.
seems crazy now, but, I startedinviting all the high school
kids to Studio 54.
(14:04):
This was in the early eighties.
And so we'd all go to Studio 54all the time.
My parents had pads of thesehigh school, I mean, I'm sorry,
of these invitations to Studio54 that they used as notepads.
We had so many of them sent tothe house that you were supposed
to distribute to other friends.
I posted one of them on myInstagram.
I found one of them.
Brett Benner (14:22):
Well, no, I have to read this because I, I did
take a screenshot of this butthis is a card at the top that
says, a list of names, but theone that stood out to me, of
course, was Tom Selleck, and itsaid, invite you to a preppy
party at Studio 54, Friday,October 15th, 830 to 1030 preppy
dress come early, stay late.
(14:42):
Now, what I love is, um, and allof you, I will link, Cynthia's
Instagram below.
So you can see this yourself,but she attached this to part of
her journal or her diary, whichsays Sunday, October 17th.
This weekend was interesting onFriday.
The song went quite well afterschool.
I went to Katie's and NikkiBrown came over that night.
We got a little stone that wentto studio with an arrow pointing
(15:05):
up as if, you know, just toconfirm, uh, which was like a
mob scene.
There was a huge line and peoplewere pushing and fighting and
throwing up.
I love that so much because notonly do you encapsulate the
moment, but also you as justthis young girl.
It's so it literally could havebeen my daughter.
(15:26):
I loved that.
But that's crazy that they wereeffectively almost recruiting.
Yeah,
Cynthia Weiner (15:30):
all under age.
I mean, we were all under eight.
Like we were all 16 years old.
I don't even understand.
Brett Benner (15:35):
And never carded probably.
I did
Cynthia Weiner (15:37):
have my, you know, my Times Square fake ID
that said.
Cynthia Smith or something.
I don't even know.
And I'm sure the year I put, I'msure I made myself like 50 by
mistake.
Like I didn't even understand,you know, what year I was
supposed to put.
Brett Benner (15:48):
Did you used to drill down with your girlfriends
and say, tell me when yourbirthday was again.
Tell me when your birthday wasagain.
Tell me your name.
Make
Cynthia Weiner (15:55):
sure you have it right.
Um, but no, we barely ever gotasked and there were nightclubs
all over the city.
We went to area, to Palladium.
What were some of the others?
Danceteria, I went on my, thewoman I babysat for set me up on
a date with this guy she knew.
And we went to limelight theopening night for that
Brett Benner (16:16):
limelight.
That was the one in the church,correct?
Cynthia Weiner (16:19):
Yeah.
So just nightclubs were sort ofthis, this another place to go.
Yeah.
It was a lot of fun.
And again, my parents, I guessthey just They just thought it
was fun.
They were just like, all right,they knew where I was going.
I mean, I think I remembersaying, I'm going, yeah, I know.
I would 54 or I'm going, I thinkthey just thought it was, I
guess they thought it was fun.
Brett Benner (16:38):
And then it was just youth.
And I'm sure they viewed you asyou were being responsible.
You generally came home when yousaid you would.
I wrote a, I wrote a listbecause for, uh, our listeners,
our viewers, because this wasagain, so fun.
And this is only a part of someof the references that are made
in the book to this time period.
And for anyone who is of thattime period, you will go crazy.
(17:00):
Cause I was reading this lastnight to my business partner and
she was howling.
So this is just some of thethings, and this covers a range
of music, everything.
Who's the boss tab, slim, fast,the clash.
Mylanta, Talking Heads,Walkmans, Slow Gin Fizz,
Newports, Parliaments,Parliaments, Bagot College, Eye
(17:21):
of the Tiger, Le Sport Sac,Swatch, Endless Love, Kissing
Potion Lip Gloss, The Fly, TheChamp, Quiet Riot, Prince,
Twisted Sister, Rat, which whenthen last night we had to sing a
big round of round and round,Culture Club, Dianetics, Bad
(17:43):
Girls, Lacoste, Dippity Doo,Jiffy Pop, The Palladium,
Polaroids, Oh my god, I lovethis one, Legs, Eggs, I used to
play with my mother's as well,Oh my god, uh, Actifed,
Dynamints, and Mary Kay.
Oh my God, I could go on becauseI just was like pulling.
I was going like page by page.
You must've had a, just a, uh,the greatest time pulling up.
(18:06):
It was really fun.
I was just
Cynthia Weiner (18:07):
looking for my kissing potion.
Cause I found, I can't find it,but I, I bought myself a little,
I found a place where, where,uh, Uh, they still sell it.
Um, you know what's funny?
You'd think these references,I'd have to dig to get them, but
they were just right at the topof my, I remembered all of, I
can remember everything you justsaid.
I'm like, don't those stillexist?
I don't even know if they still,I think, because they're so,
(18:27):
they're so still in my mind.
It was really fun.
It was really, and I want to sayalso, I mean, part of the reason
that when you mentioned that thebook was funny, I'm really
pleased to hear that.
And I also want to say that, youknow, Nina doesn't know what's
going to happen at the end ofthe summer.
So I, I felt funny sometimesbecause I was writing a book
about this terrible tragedy, butI also, I wanted it to be from
(18:50):
the point of view of this youngwoman, even though it's third
person.
So, that's, So I, I, cause shedoesn't know.
So to her, she's just living hereighties, you know, her best
eighties life.
Brett Benner (19:00):
Yeah.
All of it.
I also thought you, you need toput together or have someone put
together a It is a Spotifyplaylist.
You really do.
Cause there is so much youreferenced here.
That's so evocative.
And I was like, Oh my God, allright, so let's talk about Nina.
I think for so many people,she's going to be an
identifiable character.
I mean, for her, she's, youknow, as you spoke earlier,
(19:22):
she's Jewish, feeling like anoutsider in this group of kind
of, you know, WASP y people.
But I think she speaks toanybody who's ever really felt
like an outsider in any kind ofcapacity.
But she's also this young womanwho is.
Kind of, navigating that momentof, still being a girl but
(19:42):
becoming a woman, still reallyaware of her sexuality and
wanting something and kind ofthe convergence of, is, am I in
love with this person?
Am I in lust with this person?
And, there was many times when Iwas reading the book, I had to
stop for a second because I keptsaying, these young women are,
are, are seniors in high school,which is exactly where my
(20:02):
daughter was.
And it would kind of floor mefor a moment because of the way
they were living and their livesin this New York jungle where,
you know, arguably Gardner Reedis not the only predator in the
city.
Cynthia Weiner (20:17):
Yeah.
Someone, someone described mybook the other day as, um, they
put a tag on it, drugs andlonging so much with the book is
about particularly longing.
You know, that was something Ifelt so much when I was in his
age, and the age of herdaughter.
I, I felt so much your, I didn'teven know what it was for, but
to be, to be looked at and to bepaid attention to and to be
(20:41):
important in some way or forsomebody to be significant.
Right.
You know, the.
The upside of my parents, youknow, sort of being on their own
was that I had so much freedom,but the downside I think was
that I felt very, Insignificantin a lot of ways.
And, and then, and added on toby being Jewish and, and not,
you know, not having knownpeople throughout generations as
(21:01):
they all knew each other foryears and not feeling very
pretty when I was young andlooking different from most of
the other, or many of the othergirls at the time, I know I felt
in that Nina just wants to be.
You know, looked on as just, as,as, as, as somebody, somebody to
be, to be, to be, to be takenaccount of.
And something about Gardner, youknow, makes her feel that if he
(21:25):
likes her and if he, if shemanages to lose her virginity to
him, which I don't even know ifshe knows what that, I mean, she
knows what it means literally,but I don't even.
It's about that.
It's just, it's almost like astamp of approval or something.
She'll have a confidence.
She believes, or she'll feellike, okay, I've made it now or
I'm okay now.
And I think that's what I know.
(21:46):
I felt a lot.
I felt through my whole life andyou know, I mean, it wasn't just
when I was 18, it lasted for along time.
That feeling of, if thishappens, I'll be okay.
You know, or if this happens,I'll be somebody that's
important someone special.
Special.
And I think that that's, that'swhat, that's what she's looking
for.
And I hope that that'srelatable, as you said, to, to
(22:07):
people, because it feels veryuniversal to me, that kind of
vulnerability.
Brett Benner (22:11):
Yeah.
But it's so interesting becauseeven among her friends or
frenemies of this other kind ofgirl groups, in terms of
Gardner, there, there's so manyof them that are vying for his
attention.
And, and so I.
I keep thinking all of thesegirls probably feel a facet of
the same thing and feeldifferent for some particular
(22:32):
reason, which that is certainlyuniversal.
I don't know that, you know,even among the popular girls
say, and this is something I'vewatched very much with my
daughter.
There's also that hierarchy andwhere are you within that
hierarchy?
And even if you're at the top,like gardener's girlfriend at
the beginning, it still doesn'tmean anything.
And it means the fall can bethat much more precipitous, you
(22:54):
know?
I
Cynthia Weiner (22:55):
just spoke to my niece yesterday, who's 18 and
she's at college and she's goingthrough sorority rush and.
You know, it's, it's still, allthose things are still going on.
And I don't know if it'sdifferent now.
When I was younger, you didn'tadmit to that kind of
vulnerability.
I think it might be a littledifferent now where, or people
are a little bit more open aboutit.
(23:15):
When I was growing up, it wasnot.
That was not cool.
That was not it was everythingwas about being cool and being
cynical and nothing bothers youand nothing matters And you
know, everything is likeinteresting as I put in my
journal, you know, it You knowmy another niece told me when
she got to college they all didwhat they call a trauma dump I
mean we were not doing that, youknow where they all sit around
in a room together and discusstheir trauma.
(23:37):
Um, we didn't do that then.
That was definitely notsomething in the 80s and not
part of my childhood.
So it may be, I don't, I don'tknow if it's different now, but
it was certainly that compoundedthat if you felt lonely and if
you felt, insignificant or, youknow, it was, it was, you just
didn't discuss it.
And I do remember one point whenI was young.
I was at, I was at camp and Iwas sad and I was crying to a
(24:00):
friend and she was like, uh, uh,like, no, this is not, we don't,
this is, she's veryuncomfortable.
And it was just like, we don'tdo this.
Like, this is not, and I don'teven know if she spoke to me
again the whole summer.
So when I think about all thesegirls, they don't, they don't
tell each other how they reallyfeel, which I think makes it
even harder for Nina
Brett Benner (24:20):
She meets this incredible, young girl,
Stephanie.
Who is just like, A meteor
Cynthia Weiner (24:25):
and who is open and who is sweet and who thinks
Nina is great.
I mean, she didn't grow up inthat world.
I mean, it is great, you know,but she, she sees Nina in the
way Nina's always wished to beseen.
And I had a friend like I wasaround that age, a friend from
outside of my.
Friend group who I met, who sawme that way, and it was the most
wonderful experience and I stillwanted to recreate that for Nina
(24:47):
also, you know, and have in thebook where you have a friend
who's not your, your usualfriend group who, who,
Stephanie's just one of thosepeople who's more open-hearted
and she talks about emotions andshe thinks Nina's great and.
What a wonderful, you know,wonderful friend to have
Brett Benner (25:05):
yeah, they're a great counterbalance to each
other because she's, she's sucha kind of extrovert that she
pulls out things in Nina that I,I think Nina had there, but
wouldn't necessarily havethought, but what a great way to
have it pulled out by someonewho is so living out and, and
not afraid and kind of fearlessin whatever she does.
(25:26):
It's a, it's a really coolrelationship to watch develop.
I want to just talk aboutFrancis and Nina's mother
because, uh, you know, as youexplained in the beginning, she
is such an integral part of, of,uh, of this story and she is
kind of a train wreck thatbegins to escalate as the book
goes on.
One of the things that I lovedabout the book is I said there's
(25:49):
kind of an underlying dread thatexists in the book but it's not
necessarily from the places youthink it's going to be.
Like you get to the first partyou know that it's going to end
with this girl being strangledin the park but there's so much
that leads up to that the kindof under the surface tension and
a large part of that I think.
Is due to the relationship ofNina and her mother and the
(26:10):
unpredictability of what hermother's going to do next.
Cynthia Weiner (26:13):
if anybody, or you can imagine, or if you
happen to grow up with or knowsomebody, uh, you know, a friend
or family member who'sdepressed.
if that person starts to feelbetter, it's the most joyful
thing because witnessing someoneup close who is that hopeless
and that sad is, is, you know,it's, it's obviously more
(26:37):
painful for them, but it'sincredibly painful to witness,
you know, to be there, to justsee someone you love in that
state.
And so to see someone, you know,You love and come out of that
state, is amazing and wonderful.
And, and so I was trying toportray that Nina, you know, can
(26:57):
see maybe it's not so great.
And the father also who's, youknow, his father is, is, is very
devoted to Francis and, andloves her so much and also wants
to see her happy.
And so it kind of blinds themto, what's not so great going
on.
That, you know, she's, she'sdisplaying behavior that's.
you know, kind of kooky and, andodd.
(27:17):
And if they knew any better,they might understand that it's,
it's, she's not, she's not well,but, but, but she appears happy.
And so to them, her happinessoverrides any sense of, of what
could really, you know, of whatcould, of rationality and what
could really, yeah.
Brett Benner (27:36):
Yeah.
And it's, you also wonder too,again, this being a time piece
of sorts, what that relationshipand how that would have changed
had it been now, how muchquicker you would have come to
some kind of diagnosis, how youwould have understood and had a
language to be able to have aconversation about it.
But there wasn't that, you know,there was just things that we
just didn't.
know about.
And so you kind of just kind ofwent with it.
(27:57):
And there's a there's a scenethat happens later in the book
when her mother's kind of onthis manic episode, and they
come across a policeman and hisdog.
I won't go into it, but it's souncomfortable and so horrific
and poor Nina, say, poor, poorNina.
And frankly, the poor policemanand, and, and poor dog.
(28:18):
Um, one thing I wanted to talkwith you about that you talk
about in the book, and you'llhave to explain this to me.
You talk in it about Lee'spersonality test.
Is this a real thing?
Cynthia Weiner (28:32):
In fact, in real life, one of my memories, this
all came out of, so, so, do youwant to say anything about it
first then I can say where itcame out of?
Brett Benner (28:39):
Yeah, there's this point later in the book when
Nina is talking about this thingcalled the Leeds personality
test and, and she says, what it,what it really does is, um,
they'll give you a, a, a, a, aseries of words and you're
supposed to kind of give yourfirst reaction to that word and
depending on how you react toit, whether it's, it could be a
(29:01):
negative or a positiveconnotation, kind of talks about
the kind of person you are,whether you're an optimist or a
pessimist, is that basically it?
It's
Cynthia Weiner (29:09):
lead.
I don't know that Lee made it.
This was a real test though,that I found.
And the reason all of thishappened was one of my strongest
memories of Robert Chambers wasgiving him a personality test.
And he said his favorite animalwas a gazelle.
And I have no idea why, but thatstays in my mind so much.
I wish I could find it.
I don't have it anymore.
But, so I wanted to includepersonality.
(29:29):
Plus, we used to give each otherpersonality tests all the time.
That was such a thing.
I don't know if girls still dothat.
But, and that, and that made youkind of, you know, You know, it,
it brought attention to youbecause you'd say to somebody,
Oh, I want to give you apersonality test.
And of course everyone paysattention because everyone wants
to hear about their personality.
The one you're referring to wasa real test I found where I
think one of the examples waslike, okay, so, um, if you hear
(29:50):
the phrase Rocky road, if you'rean optimist, you think of ice
cream.
If you're a pessimist, you thinkof like a tough journey, you
know, or if you, if you hear, Idon't remember what some of the
other ones.
Brett Benner (30:01):
Okay.
Well, I have some for you.
That's why I have these up.
Cause I did, I did yours in thebook with everyone in the house
last night.
Like I sat around, like, I mean,everybody, I didn't tell them
anything.
gave them all the tests, and theonly consistent among everyone
was, everyone said Rocky Roadfor them.
The association was positive,was ice cream.
(30:21):
Right.
So, but everybody else for themost part, we're all pessimists,
which was, you know, maybe it'sthe time, but I was like, this
is hilarious.
Okay.
So here I have a few for you towant to ask you words.
Cause I went with everybody.
I'm like, guys, I need you topitch in.
I need to ask her these.
say the word, you say the firstthing you think of in terms of a
definition.
First word, lie, L I E.
Cynthia Weiner (30:44):
You're telling an untruth.
Brett Benner (30:45):
Buckle.
Cynthia Weiner (30:46):
A thing on a belt.
Okay.
Brett Benner (30:48):
Bolt.
Cynthia Weiner (30:49):
I say lightning, like a lightning bolt.
Brett Benner (30:50):
Okay, so our results, here we go.
So for the word lie.
You said to tell an untruth.
That would be the negative.
The positive would be to putsomething down or lay down
buckle.
You said a shoe or a belt.
That's the positive.
The buckle would be to collapse.
That would be like the negative.
(31:11):
If something buckled and wentdown.
Uh, and bolt, you said lightningbolt, which is going to be
anything.
This is funny.
Cause usually bolt it says liketo fasten something or secure
something.
The negative would be to leavequickly to get out.
So I think you straddle a lineis what I'm saying.
I think you're very much, you'rethe optimist and the pessimist.
You're not one of the others.
Oh, that's
Cynthia Weiner (31:31):
great.
Thank you for giving me that.
That was.
It's really fun.
I don't even know why I justsaid that because I like never
think about horoscopes and don'tbelieve anything.
And yet I am.
I'm like, I'm always like thebook.
I'm always in between.
I'm always all writers areright.
Brett Benner (31:47):
Probably to find the balance.
Well, this has been so fun youare delightful.
I I'm so excited for you.
The book, once again, is agorgeous excitement.
It's out today.
So be sure to get it, hopefullyfrom your, uh, independent
bookstore.
But again, Cynthia,congratulations.
I'm so excited for you.
Um, it's just a fantastic,
Cynthia Weiner (32:07):
thank you so much.
I so appreciate it.
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