March 13, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with Emily St. James to discuss her debut novel 'Woodworking' They talk about the title of the book and its relevance today, growing up in rural South Dakota, trans people in history, and why a sequel won't happen but what it could be.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everybody, it's Brett and welcome or
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack.
I'm excited that you're here.
This is not my normal releaseday, but here's the thing.
I read the book of today's guestlast weekend right after her
book came out and I flipped overit.
So I immediately reached outbecause I wanted to sit down
(00:22):
with her and I didn't wanna waittill next week to get this
conversation in front of all ofyou because I think that the
book is so incredibly specialand so incredibly timely, the
book is Woodworking.
The author is Emily St.
James.
A little bit about Emily, she'sa writer.
(00:42):
Cultural critic, and this is herfirst novel.
Her journalism and criticismhave been featured by the New
York Times Vox and the AV Cluband her writing for television
has been featured on the Emmynominated series, yellow
Jackets.
She lives in Los Angeles withher family, so please enjoy this
episode of Behind the Stack.
(01:05):
I am so thrilled to be sittingdown with Emily St.
James for her phenomenal book,woodworking.
I know you could probably tellthat.
'cause I was just, I've beentripping and going crazy for
this thing and posting about it.
On Instagram and over on YouTubeas well.
I just, I loved this so, so muchand truly it's, it's, it's one
(01:29):
of the best things I've readthis year.
I, I just I.
I knew it was gonna be good, butI, I have to tell you, like I
read it last weekend in likealmost one failed swoop and I
found myself laughing so much,but also crying and I was so
moved by it.
Probably in no small part toobecause of everything that's
happening right now.
But even separate from that,it's just such a well-crafted
(01:54):
and beautiful story.
So congratulations.
Emily St. James (01:57):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I'm glad you I'm glad you likedit.
Brett Benner (01:59):
So before we get into the book I just wanted to
do a little background on you.
'cause now you grew up in SouthDakota where this book is.
I
Emily St. James (02:07):
did, I, yeah.
I was born in Michigan, but twomonths into my life I moved to
South Dakota.
I, I don't remember, I didn'tremember Michigan.
So I consider myself a SouthDakota native, but by strict
Associated press standards.
I am not a South Dakota native,but I, I spent my entire
childhood adolescence and I alsowent to college there.
(02:29):
So I, I was, I was there a longtime.
I grew up there.
I grew up trans there.
It was it was a very isolatingplace in ways that I are good
and bad.
You know, there's times that youlike to be a little bit lonely
and South Dakota's good forthat.
But also when you're queer thatcan be very isolating.
Brett Benner (02:46):
Yeah, and I think the way of communicating, it's
not like.
Now where people would haveaccess to so much information
that was disseminated to evenget out there?
Yeah.
Or to find out who was outthere.
Emily St. James (02:58):
Yeah.
You know, I, I was a teenager ayoung teenager when the internet
sort of entered our lives.
And you know, that was reallykind of the first place I
started figuring out.
Some of this stuff, like I, Ihad, I had done the classic
trans girl thing of trying tolike come out at like three or
four, which went poorly.
That was in the eighties.
And then when I was a teenagerwe got the internet and I
(03:20):
started kind of like makingfriends from all over, mostly
with.
Cis girls.
But you know, I, I certainlylike, would enter spaces online
as a girl and sort of felt likethat was more me.
I didn't entirely put togetherall of the, the, the puzzle
pieces there.
I certainly.
(03:41):
But certainly by the time I, Iwas nearing the end of high
school, I sort of had this looseplan of how I was gonna
transition and then it took me along time to get there, so.
Brett Benner (03:51):
Well, did you, but did you also, when you said you
were three or four, and how didthat present?
Was it just.
Wearing clothes or wanting to,what was your understanding of
that?
I'm so curious.
Emily St. James (04:00):
I, you know, I was, I was like, I was so young
that I don't have like a strongmemory.
Yeah.
And it was very, it was veryharshly policed as you'd sort of
expect in the eighties.
But it, it was you know, it, itwas very much saying that, you
know, I hoped I grew up to be agirl.
You know yeah the, the classicputting on of the mother's
clothes, that sort of thing.
(04:20):
That was, yeah, that was allpresent.
And it was very much me sayingto people that I wanted to be a
girl.
I wanted to be named Jessica,which I'm glad I didn't get my
way because I don't, I'm gladI'm not a Jessica.
I don't think I could havepulled it off.
But that was, you know, thatthat was, that was what was
happening.
And it was it was the eighties.
It was.
(04:40):
Small town, South Dakota, peopledidn't entirely know what to do
with that.
So I, I just like shoved myselfin the closet.
Brett Benner (04:46):
I imagine too small town, everybody knows
everybody's business as well.
Emily St. James (04:50):
Yeah.
And it was you know, I, I was aprecocious child.
So certainly I, and I lovedwriting stories, so I think
certainly there was a sense thatI was like, making things up.
You know, that the classic now,now when people are like, well,
how can a kid know.
They're trans.
'cause yesterday they said theywere a dinosaur.
And it's like, yeah, they did.
(05:11):
They kid.
But kids know the differencebetween themselves and make
believe.
You know, your kid is almostcertainly not feeling intense
bodily.
Discomfort at the fact that theylike, haven't grown a tail or
like spouted sharp teeth.
They might be that, you know,you're not allowing them to
present in a fashion consistentwith their, their internal
(05:32):
gender.
And the thing that we, from allthe research we have, like
gender seems to turn onsomewhere between two and three,
there's this part of your brainthat's like, this is who I am.
And then there's outsidesocietal conditioning that is
like, this is how you are.
If you're a girl, this is howyou behave.
But there is some core innatething in your brain that says,
this is what's going on.
(05:53):
This is, this is who I am.
I'm watching it with my own kidright now.
As they are they're, they'realmost two and a half and like
those things are starting tolike.
Click on in a way that I findreally fascinating from my
perspective as someone whodidn't entirely know what she
was going through back in theday to watch it happening in a
child.
But it is, I think I.
(06:13):
I think that because childhoodinvolves a lot of imaginary
play, there is this temptationand understandable temptation to
sort of say this is, you know,you're just, you're playing,
you're playing a game, you'repretending to be someone, but
there is this very deep, innatesense of self that is in all of
us, and that I think a lot ofpeople are scared to examine
(06:35):
because they might find.
It doesn't entirely line up withwho they're supposed to be.
And I think that is true ofliterally everybody on the
planet.
Like the, the, if you are acisgender guy or woman there are
things about how society haspresented that gender to you
that you are uncomfortable withand you would rather not deal
with.
And I think, but I think like.
(06:57):
When you're close enough,there's a better sense of going
along to get along.
And I think that that is a thingthat is transness reminds
everyone that we, we can makeour own decisions about our own
bodies and our own lives.
And that's very threatening tocertain subsets of people.
Brett Benner (07:12):
now was your family, was your family very
religious, conservative?
Emily St. James (07:16):
Yeah.
So I grew up very evangelicalChristian, but I think, not in
the sense that people think ofEvangelical Christian now, which
is a big mega church somewherein the south.
This was a it's a church similarto the one in the book Living
Waters, where Isaiah Rosepreaches.
It's kinda way out in the middleof nowhere and.
It's like got a very firebrandpreacher and then it has, you
(07:39):
know, a pretty consistentcongregation.
And it's very much engaged withChristianity as a force for
politics in many ways.
Hmm.
I I don't know that we would'vethought of it that way when I
was growing up.
Certainly people there.
Supported Republican candidates.
Pat Robertson the 700 club guyhad his, his short-lived
(08:00):
presidential run in 1988 andpeople there were very excited
about that.
I remember it's one of my firstpolitical memories how like I
was like, pat Robertson go.
'cause I didn't know any better.
And it was it was a time thatthat.
But it was a space that wasgoing to evolve into what we now
think of as the very politicallyactive evangelical church.
(08:23):
But it was also like a spacewhere people were speaking in
tongues.
They were laying hands on eachother for healing.
They were being quote unquoteslain in the spirit, which is
like when you're, you fall over'cause you're so overcome with
religious ecstasy.
So yeah, I grew up in thatspace.
It was, it was not a very queeraffirming space to put it
mildly.
It's, it's very
Brett Benner (08:42):
theatrical.
It's extremely
Emily St. James (08:44):
theatrical.
It's, and you know, I think thatI remember there was sort of
this, this concern that thisthis girl part of me was demonic
in some nature that, you know, Ihad like, like some sort of
demon had hitched a ride on mysubconscious and was like a
demon named Jessica, which isvery funny to me.
And it was, was along for theride.
(09:05):
And that was, I eventually justsort of learned to shunt all of
that stuff off to the side.
But also like the first, thefirst time I, I kissed a boy, it
was somebody I met at church, soit was it was this thing, you
know?
Brett Benner (09:18):
Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
I grew up in a very it wasn'tevangelical, but it was, you
know.
We were Presbyterian, it waswasps, we were very
Presbyterian.
Sure.
However, it was the same kind ofthing.
And you know, I knew early on Icouldn't put a name to being
queer yet, but I did.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely know that somethingwas different.
There's something wasn'ttracking, which I was seeing
other people track with.
Yeah.
And when I got to college, I wasa theater major.
(09:41):
Everybody was.
You know, you can do the math,but I went to an evangelical
church at the time and it wascomplete, the charismatic thing
and the laying on the hands andspeaking in tongues and yeah,
All of that kinda thing.
I went to church camp and youknow, God knows like so many
queer kids, I tried to pray awaythat gay Yeah.
So badly.
And until I finally was justlike, this is just not it.
(10:01):
And like, I, I, you know, I,this is not it.
So, yeah.
I think.
So many people on the spectrumhave gone through that same kind
of fire test in a way Yeah.
To, to come out the other side.
And again, there was no one Icould necessarily recognize.
I do remember one camp counselorwho at and looking back I was
completely in love with, who wasvery sensitive and very loving.
(10:25):
Mm-hmm.
And very appropriate.
But there was nothing, and Ididn't even know in terms of his
sexuality, but I rememberfeeling this intense longing and
trying to verbalize that andnow, and it's, it's so
interesting with.
Trans individuals because I'vesaid, you know, it's not that
there's more than there were.
(10:45):
It's what there is is we nowhave language to put to it, and
people are beginning tounderstand and be able to
verbalize, Hey, this is what itis that I'm.
Feeling, and I'm seeing otherpeople now, and I'm recognizing
other people now, and I can say,I feel this way too, or I am
this as well.
Yeah.
I mean, that's my own opinion onit, but yeah.
Emily St. James (11:05):
Yeah.
The, the scholar Austin Hartkehas done a lot of writing on
trans people in the Bible, andhe is sort of, what he's talking
about is there's all these.
Figures in the, the Bible whoare what we would call gender
variant, basically, they're notliving within the gender code as
it would've been understood atthat time.
Probably the, the most famous isJacob father of Joseph, who is
(11:30):
in the early part of his life,essentially coded female.
You know, he's doing stuffaround the house or whatever,
and his brother Esau, his twinbrother Esau, is off hunting.
Whatever they hunted at thattime.
And it's it is very muchpresented as like Jacob is in
this terms of his society.
(11:50):
Shame shameful, but he's alsothe one that God likes more.
God favors him.
Mm-hmm.
And so it's this, thiscomplicated like story about
this, this kid who like has toovercome his gender feels.
And it's a thing that both transwomen and trans men and
non-binary people, it's a thingthat all trans people will read
that story in Genesis and belike, oh yeah, okay, I get this.
(12:13):
And I think that like a lot ofcis people have enforced a
binary on that character in away that is not necessarily
helpful.
But there's other figures that,like when you think about them.
In terms of like historicpersonage there's a, there's a,
in the New Testament there's acharacter named the Ethiopian
(12:33):
Eunuch.
And at that time, peoplewould've understood that as a
gender variant person.
And I think that one thing thatoften gets sort of.
Foist it on Hart casework fromother Christians, from people
who are coming at it from a moreconservative angle is that he's
like writing about stuff in amodern context.
Mm.
(12:53):
And forcing his modernperspective on the Bible.
But I would say they also are.
The people who are his critics,because they're expecting like
Jesus to be in the Bible andsay, by the way, if you're
trans, it's fine.
And here's a hotline you cancall.
That's right.
To talk through your feelingswhen like they didn't have the
language we have now in, in sortof biblical times.
So like they had a differentlanguage for gender variance
(13:16):
that they would've understood.
That has largely been lost tous.
But that like scholarship canhelp us reclaim.
So I often say that, you know,trans people have been around as
long as there have been humansand like.
Our earliest works of literaturehave gender variant people in
them including the Bible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (13:34):
Alright, so I do wanna talk about the book, but
the, I do have to say the onething, and all this is gonna tie
in anyway, but I, when I waswhen I was looking up some stuff
on you mm-hmm.
My favorite thing that came upon Wikipedia was the first note
that said not to be confusedwith Emily St.
John Mandel.
Emily St. James (13:49):
Yeah.
Uhhuh.
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
Uhhuh.
Brett Benner (13:52):
Yep.
I love that.
Yeah.
All right, so for our viewers,our listeners, do you have,
like, do you have an elevatorpitch for woodworking?
Emily St. James (14:02):
I am not.
Emily St.
John Mendel.
Yes, exactly.
My apologies to everyone.
Brett Benner (14:07):
This is, this is not an apocalyptic novel about
the end of the world and yes.
Exactly.
Is
Emily St. James (14:12):
it though?
No.
Right, right.
She's, she's one of our bestliving novelists and I feel very
gratified to share an EmilySaint with her.
Yes.
Emily Saint J to be clear, abunch of letters.
I this is, it's very close, butyeah.
Yeah.
This is a, a book about a transwoman who comes out to herself
in her mid thirties and finallysort of self accepts and is
(14:34):
like, I am going to go on thejourney, what's next?
And she, the only other transwoman she knows is a 17-year-old
girl who's one of her highschool students.
And it's about the unlikelyfriendship that develops between
them and against the backdrop ofthe 2016 election.
Brett Benner (14:50):
that was very good.
It was very concise.
Emily St. James (14:52):
I've gotten, I've got, I was so bad at this a
year ago.
Brett Benner (14:54):
You've done it so much.
Yes.
You've done it so much.
I mean it, it, it's literallysounds like you're just going
into your pitch meeting.
Originally when I, I hadfinished the book and then I was
like, huh, I wonder why 2016?
And then of course I got, I, Iunderstood it completely.
Because I, I was like,unfortunately, we're, we're here
all over again.
At, at, at 2024.
(15:15):
I, I, I, I said when I finishedthis, I would give this book to
anyone who wanted to understandwhat it's like for any person
who was coming out as trans.
Yeah.
I felt it was one of the thingsI loved about it so much was you
were on this journey.
(15:35):
With Erica, who is our teacher.
And it's so beautifully done.
It's also on another side note,it's so damn funny.
I mean, I have to say, Abigail,this student, you must have had
the greatest time writing her, Iwould imagine.
(15:56):
She, yeah, and I, and I almostfeel like, tell me this, because
I imagine in my mind this islike two parts.
Of Emily playing out almost likeyou know, the journey.
And also it was it a little bitof who I want to be and who I
am.
Mm-hmm.
Is that how this was kind ofstructured for you
Emily St. James (16:16):
a bit, Erica?
Some of Erica's touchstones aresimilar to touchstones in my
life.
She's a bit more guileless thanI am.
She's a bit more has, she's bothsimultaneously more scared than
I was because the second I wasout, I was like, well, I gotta
do something about this.
And Erica is, is taking hersweet time.
I, I took my sweet time too, butfor different reasons.
(16:38):
And Abigail is much more, morejaded.
She has a, a, a very differentperspective on all of this.
They are both like, slightlymore intense than me in their
feelings.
It was interesting'cause I, Istarted the book in 2020.
I came out to myself in 2018.
I started medical transitionlater that year.
And in fact, we're coming up onthe seventh anniversary of me
(17:01):
coming out to myself.
It's a, it's a, it's a, it'swild to realize I've made it
that far.
But I, i, you know, startedmedical transition later that
year and I immediately like hadI, because I was a public
figure, I was writing as a, ajournalist at Vox at the time I
had to like, sort of thinkabout, okay, how am I gonna like
have my public self transition?
(17:23):
And so like.
A lot of Erica's angst when Istarted writing the book in 2020
was so present for me and I waslike able to tap into it so
easily.
And as I've worked on it, asI've worked on revisions, I've
gotten much closer to Abigailbecause Abigail has been, when
the book starts, she's beentransitioning for a while.
(17:44):
She's says 14 months.
So of course the over the courseof the book, she gets to 16
months transition and it's,it's, you know, she has a
different perspective becauseshe's been doing it for a while
and now she's realized thishasn't solved everything in her
life.
There's other stuff going onwith her trauma, with her mental
health, with whatever that shehas to like actually deal with.
(18:07):
I wanted to sort of captureelements of transition that I
don't see in a lot of transitionnarratives.
Because the second I realizedthis was gonna be a transition
narrative, I got very gun shyabout it.
'cause that's like the one transstory that, that cis people are
like interested in.
Certainly cis people have readother trans narratives, you
know, that aren't necessarilyabout transition, but it is.
(18:29):
It is, it is a big lift becausethat's the one thing cis people
understand about trans transnessis there's an before and an
after.
So I was like very cognizant ofthe fact that I was doing that.
So I was like, what are, what'sa transition narrative I haven't
seen before?
And it is about that periodbetween when you come out and
when you decide to like actuallylive your life and stuck in
that.
(18:50):
Part for the entirety of thebook and Abigail's is, you know,
after you've been transitioningfor a while and you realize
there's these things thathaven't been fixed by it that
you need to deal with still, andby necessity of where, you know,
of how much I got further andfurther from my transition the
early days of my transition, Ijust could relate to Abigail
(19:11):
Moore as the story went on.
And so I, I got very annoyedwith Erica in later drafts.
Like, I love her, but she is shecome, will come up with any
excuse to not make a choice.
And that was.
That was always hard to like,sort of massage and not make her
unbearable.
But yeah, like I loved, I lovedwriting both of them.
(19:31):
I love both of them.
Every time I spend time withthem, I feel great about it.
I'm, I'm a little sad that it'sdone because I don't get to hang
out with them anymore.
And I just, it's not a book thatwants a sequel, you know?
You get to the end of it andyou're like, yeah, it's fine.
Brett Benner (19:43):
I don't even know right now what that sequel would
be.
Emily St. James (19:46):
It would be very grim and dark because of
the times we live in.
Brett Benner (19:51):
I took this quote and I thought it kind of
encapsulated the two of them.
It said this is Erica andAbigail in conversation, and she
said, Erica listened toeverything Abigail said, but if
she was honest with herself,dismissed most of it.
The girl didn't understand howlucky she was.
She had thrown herself a ropefrom shore before she washed
away to sea, and now she got tosimply live her life.
Erica meanwhile had beenswimming against.
The riptide her whole life andgotten too good at it.
(20:13):
And I thought, wow, that's likeon the nose.
I loved that.
Explain the title I mean, it, itgets explained.
Sure.
But could you explain that forour listeners and our viewers?
Emily St. James (20:21):
I'm realizing how many water metaphors I use.
I'm like, what is that?
What's up with that, Emily?
What's going on there?
Woodworking is this conceptfrom.
Seventies, eighties transcommunity, which is basically
that you transition.
It's especially prominent amongtrans women.
I did find some instances oflike trans men using it really
(20:42):
though at the time thecommunities were quite separate
because of the nature of.
Communication at that time.
Certainly like they overlappedand, and knew each other, but
like their publications, whichis where a lot of this
information was disseminated inzines and things like that were
quite separate.
So it was mostly a, a term amongtrans women.
The idea was that you wouldtransition, you would get to a
(21:03):
point where you passed wellenough or extremely well, and
you would, basically cut off allties to your old life and
disappear into the woodwork.
You know, you would get married,you would get a job.
You would in essence become adifferent person without a past,
and that would be you know, howyou lived your life.
(21:24):
And that was a necessity at thattime for a lot of people.
They had.
Families who didn't understandthem, they were in danger.
If they sort of lived openly asa trans person where they were.
So they would just entirelydisappear and build something
new for themselves and just say,you know, this is who I've
always been.
(21:44):
I am a cis person.
I.
Although they wouldn't have usedthe term CIS at the time, and it
like, it was a ne necessity inmany cases for safety or for
whatever.
But it also wasn't tremendouslyalienating.
It was this like thing that.
Sort of ate away at many ofthem.
And I did talk to folks whoeither had done something like
(22:05):
that or had gone what we calldeep stealth, which is like just
the next step above, which islike a few people know you're
trans, maybe like a spouse or atrusted friend, but for the most
part you're living your life asa cis person.
And yeah, there's just a lot ofit that to them ended up
becoming incredibly lonelybecause they couldn't talk about
this part of their lives.
(22:26):
And then there's sort of thiswindow in the 2010s when it
seems like transness is becomingmore accepted, and a lot of
those folks started talkingabout it either openly or to
people like me.
And now I'm seeing it happen allover.
I'm seeing it happen withfriends.
Be like, you know what?
It's not safe anymore.
And I am going to, as much aspossible, live as a, as a, a cis
(22:46):
person, and I get thetemptation.
I kind like, I, I kind of, thereare days I wish I could do it.
I unfortunately have a Wikipediapage.
So it's, it's difficult for meto do that.
And also I wrote a novel aboutbeing trans.
But you know, it, there there isa part of me that's like, yeah,
if I could assimilate.
(23:07):
To entirely.
I get the temptation of thateven as I think like ultimately
that's not great for the transcommunity as a whole, as an
individual.
You do have to prioritize yoursafety to some extent.
So I get it.
And I'm also like, I think thatwe're gonna see, you know, 30
years from now, a lot of thesefolks like have just sort of
(23:29):
intense psychic angst.
Like what they had to do.
Brett Benner (23:32):
Yeah, and I, I think it was right after 45, 47
came back into office, I, I, Ithink it was Laverne Cox who I
saw speaking and said, and Idon't know if what terms she
used, if it was going deep orgoing dark, and she said, for
safety purposes, many of you mayhave to do this and do what you
(23:54):
need to do.
I thought of well beyondeverything, but I thought of so
many young people and I, I don'tknow, it's just it's, it, it's
so horribly upsetting.
Emily St. James (24:04):
Yeah, it's I think a lot about, like one
thing I thought about as I wasworking on the book was the
degree to which everyone on theplanet is woodworking to some
extent.
Like Erica spending a lot of thebook.
Disappearing into maleness.
A a sort of costume that fitsher poorly, but that people will
(24:24):
accept on her is a form ofwoodworking and it's a form of
woodworking.
A lot of people who either knowor suspect they're trans avail
themselves of every day.
And I can't say like, youshouldn't do that.
You know, it's especially ifit's for safety.
You know, I like I think aboutthis a lot in terms of.
Needing advocates in the legalsystem, in journalism, in the PO
(24:47):
political system, there aremaybe just people who just like
for safety are going to staycloseted and as long as they're
like not making our livesactively worse, I'm not gonna
like judge them for that choiceat this point in time.
But you know this is also a bookabout a woman who's pregnant and
is like uninterested in being amother, but this is the thing
(25:09):
that's been placed upon her.
And is she woodworking a littlebit and pretending that this is
like a thing she wants everycharacter in the book is hiding
from some fundamental part ofthemselves.
And that, that's the thing Ithink is, is universally
applicable.
Not to be like, and cis peoplecan enjoy this book too, but cis
people can enjoy this book too.
Brett Benner (25:30):
Well, it's also what we, you know, think code
switching now and, and the waythat people do that, I mean,
certainly as a queer person,there's been more than enough
times and you know.
I've been in the entertainmentbecause I work in the
entertainment business, as doyou, and I've been here long
enough to all of a sudden knowif I'm passing in a certain room
to hear certain comments beingmade that would they necessarily
(25:50):
be made if at the outseteverybody knew my sexuality
would that, you know?
Yeah.
And so and that's it.
It, it becomes this jarringmoment of like, wow, okay, so
was I wise enough to keep mymouth shut?
So I got a.
Insight into how these peopleactually think, or is it wiser
to open my mouth and say, Hey,you know what, that that's not
right because X, Y, Z.
(26:12):
So, but I think, you know,people do it all the time for a
variety of reasons, and itdoesn't have to be gender or
sexuality.
It's just we're changing basedon who we are and, and
potentially who we're with.
It's an also really interestingdynamic between Erica and
Abigail because you've reversedthe parent child dynamic.
(26:34):
Yeah.
Emily St. James (26:34):
Yeah.
And like I was thinking, I'vebeen thinking about how much
consternation there is right nowabout teachers.
Warping their students' minds orwhatever.
And this is a book where the,the student is the one who tells
the teacher, you know, here'swhat you need to do.
And like, yeah.
I think that that is asubversion of what people expect
hopefully in a way that theyenjoy.
(26:55):
But certainly I imagine there'ssome like.
Like conservative, somebodysomewhere who's like, oh, this
is a book about a teacher and astudent and transness.
That's exactly what we're afraidof.
But yeah, a, a thing thatappealed to me was that it is a
book about a mother and adaughter, but that applies both
ways.
Abigail knows more about beingtrans, and Erika does and can
(27:15):
instruct her in those ways, butshe's also 17 and Abigail's 35,
or Erica's 35.
Mm-hmm.
And so Erica knows so much moreabout like life.
Then Abigail does.
And so there's the moretraditional maternal thing.
Abigail is no longer talking toher, the mother who raised her
and has a variety of motherfigures, and Erica sort of
(27:36):
becomes one of those.
But also, you know Abigail'sthere to be like give Erica a, a
kick in the butt when she needsone.
And that's that's a verymaternal thing to do as well.
So I, I liked the way that theycould be.
Each be both to each other.
Brett Benner (27:52):
Now, you were obviously going through
revisions of this while, likethe beginning of being a parent,
correct?
Uhhuh?
Yes.
Yes.
And how has that experience beenbeing a parent, being a mom and,
and how, and obviously, yourtransness is going to influence
your raising of your child justthe same way any parent is who
they are is.
(28:13):
How's the experience been?
You're in the fun place.
Emily St. James (28:16):
I, I, extremely fun.
That's what I say every day whenI wake up.
No, my kid is two and testingboundaries and we love to see
it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's I yeah.
I think that becoming a mominfluenced this book in a number
of ways.
The first thing is like.
I had, so I mentioned earlierErica's ex-wife Constance is
pregnant, and I didn't know whatto do with that plot point for a
(28:40):
long time.
I like really struggled with howdo I resolve this because a
pregnancy is a ticking clock ina book.
And like I either neededConstance to have that baby or
to have an abortion.
And it was a thing where I waslike sort of struggling with how
to resolve that.
And then once I had a kid, allof that sort of clicked into
(29:04):
place in a way that like, mm, itmade more sense to me like why
you would not want to have ababy.
It made more sense to me.
All of these sort of things inConstance brain that had felt
theoretical to me suddenly feltpresent.
So it really helped with that,but it also helped with like.
I think I have a pretty strongmaternal urge to like two people
(29:24):
around me who need help.
And I like sometimes overextendmyself in that regard.
So having a kid helped me pullback on that, but I could be
maternal to all the charactersin the book.
I could like sort of want whatwas best for them while also
watching them make their ownmistakes.
I, I'm working on the secondbook now.
What's gonna be book two andit's, it, it is, it is very much
(29:47):
about motherhood is involved inthere a lot.
I think that it is a theme thatI'm drawn to.
And also if you look at a lot oftrans literature, it is trans by
written, by trans women, Ishould say it is inherently
engaged with motherhood.
Detransition baby very much is,Nevada has that element to it.
Mm-hmm.
It is this thing of like.
We all sort of there is this,this primal urge in a lot of us,
(30:12):
not all of us, to have a motheror to be a mother.
And then we serve in thoseroles, both of those roles for
people in our community.
And woodworking is really kindof about that and like trying to
find your maternal instinctwithin that.
But as the book ends, you know,it.
It also understands theserelationships are transitory.
(30:32):
Erica and Abigail are not goingto be in each other's lives to
the extent they are for theperiod covered in the book for
the rest of their lives.
They're, they're different ages,they're different people.
Certainly if they bump into eachother and, you know, super
Walmart in 10 years, they'regonna have a long conversation,
but they're not, you know,meeting up to have.
Discussions about likefingernail polish all the time.
Brett Benner (30:53):
You know, speaking of it, it is very much, the book
is very much of a moment, right?
For all of these characters.
Mm-hmm.
And two of the other kind ofancillary characters, both of
her in Abigail's life, who Ijust loved so much was her
boyfriend, Uhhuh and also herbest friend.
Yes.
Who, and what I love again aboutthe way that.
You've had Abigail approach.
(31:16):
even these relationships, and Ishould say their names are Megan
and Caleb, but she's almostkicking her feet into all of
these things.
Like any kind of relationshipYeah.
That she gets into.
She's very resistant anduntrustworthy.
It's like, okay, I know whatthis is.
Like, let's just cut thebullshit.
Okay.
If we need to get to likewhatever it is.
And I love that about her, firstof all, I, Caleb was just so
(31:37):
damn sweet that I just adoredhim.
And I think everybody absolutelyknows one of these, these boys
yeah, who are just trying tofigure it out and has all of
these emotions that are wrappedup in this that is kind of as,
as heart as leading his headthey're both incredibly sweet
characters.
Emily St. James (31:56):
Yeah, I, I really think of all the
supporting characters.
If someone were to rewrite thisbook from one of their
perspectives, Caleb is the onewho would be the most
interesting for a variety ofreasons, how he intersects with
the story in multiple ways.
You wouldn't get a lot of theErica stuff'cause he just
doesn't care about it very much.
Right.
But like he's adopted.
(32:17):
I am adopted myself when I, whenI moved from Michigan to South
Dakota, that's why I was adoptedas a baby.
Caleb is a transracial adoptee.
He was adopted an internationaladoptee as well.
He's adopted from China to awhite family in the United
States.
So that aspect of his life isvery different from mine.
But this idea of being adoptedas a baby and moving to South
Dakota is a thing that happenedto me.
(32:39):
So I could sort of like.
Tap into that experience alittle bit, and I was very, like
a lot of international adopteeshave this like.
As adults, like really come tothink about that experience as a
traumatic one because I alwayshesitate to like, to like, talk
about this too, forthrightly,but adoption, the adoption of a
(33:01):
child is a, is a traumatic actfor that child.
And we can, they can be adoptedinto the best family in the
world, and many of them are, andthey can have a wonderful
experience and they can haveparents who help them deal with
that, that trauma.
But it's there.
You know, when you are a baby,you imprint on someone and then
that person goes away andsuddenly are with someone else.
And I do think Caleb's parentsare good parents and they're
(33:25):
doing their best and they'retrying as hard as they can.
I also think he's gonna get tocollege.
He's gonna get out into theworld in his twenties and be
like, this thing that happenedto me where I was effectively
sold as a commodity is reallyscrewed up and I really like,
need to think about what thatmeans for me.
And I wanted to like nod to thefact that he has these feelings,
(33:49):
but also that he's.
17, 17, 18 and hasn't had thespace to really process them
'cause he still lives with hisparents.
And so I, I, I hoped that Icould get little, little
glimmers of that.
And I've heard from someinternational adoptees who were
like very pleased with sort ofthat aspect of it.
(34:10):
I, I, my, my best friend in highschool, my Megan Osborn was an
international adoptee herself,and she, she very much informed
the character of Caleb.
You know, even though differentin many ways.
I also think like I'm interestedin the way that his attraction
to Abigail makes him think abouthis own relationship to his
sexuality, what he might thinkof as queerness.
(34:31):
I think that Caleb is probablyquite straight, but I also think
that this is like a thing thatgives him a little window into
some other part of himself.
I, I do think he's.
Very fascinating.
Oh
Brett Benner (34:42):
my God.
And a hundred percent also,like, I don't know what the,
the, the racial makeup of his inSouth Dakota, but I can't
imagine, you know, I, I wouldimagine it's 98% white.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Emily St. James (34:52):
It's, yeah, I think it's 97% white and most of
the people of color there areindigenous and of course, very.
Highly segregated onto, yeah.
Reservations.
So you, you certainly have asmall commun a community of, of
black people, particularly inthe large cities.
You have slightly largercommunities of, of Asian people,
(35:14):
but most of whom are adopted bywhite families.
It is.
It is a place where there, therewasn't a lot of immigration
until very recently.
So it, it's been, yeah, it,it's, it's a place that is very
white and less white by theyear, but certainly still that
damn immigration.
Yeah, it's it, it's certainlyis, is a, a thing.
(35:37):
In terms of Megan, I reallylike, as I was thinking about
how to structure.
This book, which is built aroundit, it's a series, a book about
a series of relationships inboth halves.
It, it is theoretically abouttransition, but transition
ceases to be, its drivingnarrative force pretty quickly,
(35:57):
and it is much more about.
A number of other things.
And the Meghan thing was, Ireally like had these two
relationships for Abigail andfor a long time the book played
out as like kind of a will they,won't they with Caleb, will he
be into her, you know, willtheir relationship go public or
(36:18):
is it gonna remain thisclandestine thing?
And Megan was just kind of thereand I realized like in, in a way
that people really enjoyed.
She was always a supportingcharacter.
People were into, and what Ikind of realized is like it
helped both of them.
If the person Abigail likeglommed onto immediately it was
Caleb and if like theirrelationship went public, goes
(36:39):
public very early in the book.
So like suddenly it's this thingthat helped that plot a lot.
And then if the will, theywon't, they was with Megan and
it was about a friendship.
It was like, am I gonna actuallytrust a person enough?
I'm gonna be vulnerable enoughwith a person enough to let her
be my friend.
And so like when you get to theend of the book, you could see
which of those relationships isgoing to outlive the book.
(37:02):
And I think, I thought that was,that ended up being more
interesting than like.
Abigail instantly decides Meghanis her friend, and Abigail and
Caleb have a will day, won'tthey?
Because like I've seen both ofthose before and this felt like
a neat way to subvert both.
Brett Benner (37:16):
And I love the idea of what you just said, of a
life that exists for thesecharacters beyond the, the last
page.
Yeah.
And those are the two that youthink, yeah, these girls will
exist beyond these pages in somecapacity.
The,
Emily St. James (37:28):
the one, the one thing where, like, when I
think about the future versionsof this book, the one thing I
wanna see are more AbigailMeghan scenes, because I think.
They are such an interesting duoand like a, like who are they
when they're in their senioryear of college and like what is
what is happening with them?
You know, it's it's a reallycool, sweet relationship.
I, my, I remember my note to theperson who does the audio book
(37:50):
on Megan was, she thinks she'sLeslie Note, but she's actually
Tracy Flick and like, I thinkthat's that's my favorite kind
of person.
Brett Benner (37:57):
Yeah.
I love that.
I would almost love to see likea standalone of what happens to
Megan when she grows up in termsof her journey, her, if it's her
sexuality, what herrelationships look like.
Emily St. James (38:08):
When when I have, I, I, I can't believe I
keep talking about a sequel, athing I will never write when I
have thought about like what asequel might look like.
It is like basically a shortstory collection about
interesting, the supportingcharacters.
Interesting.
But all of them are like.
In different genres.
That's, that is one thing I kindof have enjoyed about this book
is that as much as all thesecharacters are in the same book,
(38:29):
they're all kind of in differentstories.
And like I, you're writing
Brett Benner (38:31):
your own, you're
Emily St. James (38:32):
writing your own sound fiction stories, but
Yeah.
You know, I think, I think likea Kelly Link style story
starring Constance.
Yeah.
Makes a lot of sense.
A very like Aaron Sony politicsstory with.
With, with Helen, the, thecandidate like, would make a lot
of sense.
Then Ruth Caleb's sister, I wantlike a die hard style, like she
has to take out a bunch ofterrorists.
Like that feels like what shewould get up to.
Brett Benner (38:53):
So, okay, so I know we were talking in the
beginning you said, you know, Ididn't like set out to write a,
a political book that, thateverything's political and
reading is political, but isthere something that you hope
the book can accomplish?
Emily St. James (39:04):
I hope that this book goes and finds people
who have as the Bible would haveit ears to hear people who are
willing to listen to its story,to understand that these are
just.
People who have this, this thingin their lives that they're just
trying to deal with is the wrongword, but it's the one that
(39:25):
comes to mind there.
People with this aspect of theirlives that is important to them
but is not frightening in anyway, is maybe a better way to
put it, that there there is alot of consternation around
trans people and around us beingfrauds and around us, like
sneaking into spaces to, dosomething untoward to, to create
(39:48):
a to create bad situations.
And that couldn't be furtherfrom the truth.
And also, you know, in manysenses makes literally no sense
as just like how people behaveor like how it, it would even
function.
So I hope that people who maybedon't know a trans person but
are curious.
And willing to listen, find thisbook and read it and hopefully
(40:11):
take something from Erica andAbigail.
I also hope it finds transpeople who are feel lost in the
dark and are either in a placewhere they don't get a lot of
affirmation or are in a place intheir lives where they've been.
Hiding for whatever reason fromthemselves whether they
transitioned 30 years ago andhave been woodworking, or they
(40:31):
just came out a month ago anddon't know what to do next.
I hope it, I hope it finds themand I hope it speaks to them.
Brett Benner (40:37):
That's, that's amazing.
And one thing, and I will postthis as well in the show notes
is the, the website for assignedmedia, which is fantastic and
you have spoken about thatbefore, which is a great news
source for trans people, but foreveryone I.
Which is giving factual coverageof what's happening to and with
trans people.
Yeah, so it can kind of separatethe wheat from the chaff and so
(40:58):
you know, actually what'shappening and not what the spin
is or what's being told for,like, for politics.
Emily St. James (41:02):
And they are very good at going into like
studies and going into data andbeing like, okay, yeah, this
like.
Cuts against the prevailingtrans narrative or, you know,
in, within the trans community.
Like this is a thing we need totalk about.
Like, they have done a lot ofresearch into actual rates of
detransition, which is not asbig of a problem as the media
would, would have.
Its be, but it's not as thoughthere are no people who
(41:25):
detransition.
But they've gotten into like thecomplexities of what that means,
how those people relate to thetrans community in a way that's
so much more nuanced thananything you'll read in you
know, a, a more mainstreampublication.
Brett Benner (41:36):
Yeah.
Well, this was fantastic.
You're a joy and hilarious thebook again, please, people go
get it or get the audio byIndependent if you can.
But it's, it's truly a special,special, terrific book and
congratulations.
Emily St. James (41:52):
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
I, I do one of the voices in theaudio, so, oh.
You do?
I do one, one of them.
I'm, I'm not gonna say who, butnow that, now that I'm not gonna
say who.
You probably know who.
Brett Benner (42:04):
Well, now I'm going back to, I've gotta go get
it.
I mean, now I have to absolutelylisten to it.
so if one of you listeners orviewers out there hear it before
I do, tell me who she is.
All right, thanks.
And, uh, I'll be back withanother episode next week.
Hey everybody, it's Brett and welcome or
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack.
I'm excited that you're here.
This is not my normal releaseday, but here's the thing.
I read the book of today's guestlast weekend right after her
book came out and I flipped overit.
So I immediately reached outbecause I wanted to sit down
(00:22):
with her and I didn't wanna waittill next week to get this
conversation in front of all ofyou because I think that the
book is so incredibly specialand so incredibly timely, the
book is Woodworking.
The author is Emily St.
James.
A little bit about Emily, she'sa writer.
(00:42):
Cultural critic, and this is herfirst novel.
Her journalism and criticismhave been featured by the New
York Times Vox and the AV Cluband her writing for television
has been featured on the Emmynominated series, yellow
Jackets.
She lives in Los Angeles withher family, so please enjoy this
episode of Behind the Stack.
(01:05):
I am so thrilled to be sittingdown with Emily St.
James for her phenomenal book,woodworking.
I know you could probably tellthat.
'cause I was just, I've beentripping and going crazy for
this thing and posting about it.
On Instagram and over on YouTubeas well.
I just, I loved this so, so muchand truly it's, it's, it's one
(01:29):
of the best things I've readthis year.
I, I just I.
I knew it was gonna be good, butI, I have to tell you, like I
read it last weekend in likealmost one failed swoop and I
found myself laughing so much,but also crying and I was so
moved by it.
Probably in no small part toobecause of everything that's
happening right now.
But even separate from that,it's just such a well-crafted
(01:54):
and beautiful story.
So congratulations.
Emily St. James (01:57):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I'm glad you I'm glad you likedit.
Brett Benner (01:59):
So before we get into the book I just wanted to
do a little background on you.
'cause now you grew up in SouthDakota where this book is.
I
Emily St. James (02:07):
did, I, yeah.
I was born in Michigan, but twomonths into my life I moved to
South Dakota.
I, I don't remember, I didn'tremember Michigan.
So I consider myself a SouthDakota native, but by strict
Associated press standards.
I am not a South Dakota native,but I, I spent my entire
childhood adolescence and I alsowent to college there.
(02:29):
So I, I was, I was there a longtime.
I grew up there.
I grew up trans there.
It was it was a very isolatingplace in ways that I are good
and bad.
You know, there's times that youlike to be a little bit lonely
and South Dakota's good forthat.
But also when you're queer thatcan be very isolating.
Brett Benner (02:46):
Yeah, and I think the way of communicating, it's
not like.
Now where people would haveaccess to so much information
that was disseminated to evenget out there?
Yeah.
Or to find out who was outthere.
Emily St. James (02:58):
Yeah.
You know, I, I was a teenager ayoung teenager when the internet
sort of entered our lives.
And you know, that was reallykind of the first place I
started figuring out.
Some of this stuff, like I, Ihad, I had done the classic
trans girl thing of trying tolike come out at like three or
four, which went poorly.
That was in the eighties.
And then when I was a teenagerwe got the internet and I
(03:20):
started kind of like makingfriends from all over, mostly
with.
Cis girls.
But you know, I, I certainlylike, would enter spaces online
as a girl and sort of felt likethat was more me.
I didn't entirely put togetherall of the, the, the puzzle
pieces there.
I certainly.
(03:41):
But certainly by the time I, Iwas nearing the end of high
school, I sort of had this looseplan of how I was gonna
transition and then it took me along time to get there, so.
Brett Benner (03:51):
Well, did you, but did you also, when you said you
were three or four, and how didthat present?
Was it just.
Wearing clothes or wanting to,what was your understanding of
that?
I'm so curious.
Emily St. James (04:00):
I, you know, I was, I was like, I was so young
that I don't have like a strongmemory.
Yeah.
And it was very, it was veryharshly policed as you'd sort of
expect in the eighties.
But it, it was you know, it, itwas very much saying that, you
know, I hoped I grew up to be agirl.
You know yeah the, the classicputting on of the mother's
clothes, that sort of thing.
(04:20):
That was, yeah, that was allpresent.
And it was very much me sayingto people that I wanted to be a
girl.
I wanted to be named Jessica,which I'm glad I didn't get my
way because I don't, I'm gladI'm not a Jessica.
I don't think I could havepulled it off.
But that was, you know, thatthat was, that was what was
happening.
And it was it was the eighties.
It was.
(04:40):
Small town, South Dakota, peopledidn't entirely know what to do
with that.
So I, I just like shoved myselfin the closet.
Brett Benner (04:46):
I imagine too small town, everybody knows
everybody's business as well.
Emily St. James (04:50):
Yeah.
And it was you know, I, I was aprecocious child.
So certainly I, and I lovedwriting stories, so I think
certainly there was a sense thatI was like, making things up.
You know, that the classic now,now when people are like, well,
how can a kid know.
They're trans.
'cause yesterday they said theywere a dinosaur.
And it's like, yeah, they did.
(05:11):
They kid.
But kids know the differencebetween themselves and make
believe.
You know, your kid is almostcertainly not feeling intense
bodily.
Discomfort at the fact that theylike, haven't grown a tail or
like spouted sharp teeth.
They might be that, you know,you're not allowing them to
present in a fashion consistentwith their, their internal
(05:32):
gender.
And the thing that we, from allthe research we have, like
gender seems to turn onsomewhere between two and three,
there's this part of your brainthat's like, this is who I am.
And then there's outsidesocietal conditioning that is
like, this is how you are.
If you're a girl, this is howyou behave.
But there is some core innatething in your brain that says,
this is what's going on.
(05:53):
This is, this is who I am.
I'm watching it with my own kidright now.
As they are they're, they'realmost two and a half and like
those things are starting tolike.
Click on in a way that I findreally fascinating from my
perspective as someone whodidn't entirely know what she
was going through back in theday to watch it happening in a
child.
But it is, I think I.
(06:13):
I think that because childhoodinvolves a lot of imaginary
play, there is this temptationand understandable temptation to
sort of say this is, you know,you're just, you're playing,
you're playing a game, you'repretending to be someone, but
there is this very deep, innatesense of self that is in all of
us, and that I think a lot ofpeople are scared to examine
(06:35):
because they might find.
It doesn't entirely line up withwho they're supposed to be.
And I think that is true ofliterally everybody on the
planet.
Like the, the, if you are acisgender guy or woman there are
things about how society haspresented that gender to you
that you are uncomfortable withand you would rather not deal
with.
And I think, but I think like.
(06:57):
When you're close enough,there's a better sense of going
along to get along.
And I think that that is a thingthat is transness reminds
everyone that we, we can makeour own decisions about our own
bodies and our own lives.
And that's very threatening tocertain subsets of people.
Brett Benner (07:12):
now was your family, was your family very
religious, conservative?
Emily St. James (07:16):
Yeah.
So I grew up very evangelicalChristian, but I think, not in
the sense that people think ofEvangelical Christian now, which
is a big mega church somewherein the south.
This was a it's a church similarto the one in the book Living
Waters, where Isaiah Rosepreaches.
It's kinda way out in the middleof nowhere and.
It's like got a very firebrandpreacher and then it has, you
(07:39):
know, a pretty consistentcongregation.
And it's very much engaged withChristianity as a force for
politics in many ways.
Hmm.
I I don't know that we would'vethought of it that way when I
was growing up.
Certainly people there.
Supported Republican candidates.
Pat Robertson the 700 club guyhad his, his short-lived
(08:00):
presidential run in 1988 andpeople there were very excited
about that.
I remember it's one of my firstpolitical memories how like I
was like, pat Robertson go.
'cause I didn't know any better.
And it was it was a time thatthat.
But it was a space that wasgoing to evolve into what we now
think of as the very politicallyactive evangelical church.
(08:23):
But it was also like a spacewhere people were speaking in
tongues.
They were laying hands on eachother for healing.
They were being quote unquoteslain in the spirit, which is
like when you're, you fall over'cause you're so overcome with
religious ecstasy.
So yeah, I grew up in thatspace.
It was, it was not a very queeraffirming space to put it
mildly.
It's, it's very
Brett Benner (08:42):
theatrical.
It's extremely
Emily St. James (08:44):
theatrical.
It's, and you know, I think thatI remember there was sort of
this, this concern that thisthis girl part of me was demonic
in some nature that, you know, Ihad like, like some sort of
demon had hitched a ride on mysubconscious and was like a
demon named Jessica, which isvery funny to me.
And it was, was along for theride.
(09:05):
And that was, I eventually justsort of learned to shunt all of
that stuff off to the side.
But also like the first, thefirst time I, I kissed a boy, it
was somebody I met at church, soit was it was this thing, you
know?
Brett Benner (09:18):
Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
I grew up in a very it wasn'tevangelical, but it was, you
know.
We were Presbyterian, it waswasps, we were very
Presbyterian.
Sure.
However, it was the same kind ofthing.
And you know, I knew early on Icouldn't put a name to being
queer yet, but I did.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely know that somethingwas different.
There's something wasn'ttracking, which I was seeing
other people track with.
Yeah.
And when I got to college, I wasa theater major.
(09:41):
Everybody was.
You know, you can do the math,but I went to an evangelical
church at the time and it wascomplete, the charismatic thing
and the laying on the hands andspeaking in tongues and yeah,
All of that kinda thing.
I went to church camp and youknow, God knows like so many
queer kids, I tried to pray awaythat gay Yeah.
So badly.
And until I finally was justlike, this is just not it.
(10:01):
And like, I, I, you know, I,this is not it.
So, yeah.
I think.
So many people on the spectrumhave gone through that same kind
of fire test in a way Yeah.
To, to come out the other side.
And again, there was no one Icould necessarily recognize.
I do remember one camp counselorwho at and looking back I was
completely in love with, who wasvery sensitive and very loving.
(10:25):
Mm-hmm.
And very appropriate.
But there was nothing, and Ididn't even know in terms of his
sexuality, but I rememberfeeling this intense longing and
trying to verbalize that andnow, and it's, it's so
interesting with.
Trans individuals because I'vesaid, you know, it's not that
there's more than there were.
(10:45):
It's what there is is we nowhave language to put to it, and
people are beginning tounderstand and be able to
verbalize, Hey, this is what itis that I'm.
Feeling, and I'm seeing otherpeople now, and I'm recognizing
other people now, and I can say,I feel this way too, or I am
this as well.
Yeah.
I mean, that's my own opinion onit, but yeah.
Emily St. James (11:05):
Yeah.
The, the scholar Austin Hartkehas done a lot of writing on
trans people in the Bible, andhe is sort of, what he's talking
about is there's all these.
Figures in the, the Bible whoare what we would call gender
variant, basically, they're notliving within the gender code as
it would've been understood atthat time.
Probably the, the most famous isJacob father of Joseph, who is
(11:30):
in the early part of his life,essentially coded female.
You know, he's doing stuffaround the house or whatever,
and his brother Esau, his twinbrother Esau, is off hunting.
Whatever they hunted at thattime.
And it's it is very muchpresented as like Jacob is in
this terms of his society.
(11:50):
Shame shameful, but he's alsothe one that God likes more.
God favors him.
Mm-hmm.
And so it's this, thiscomplicated like story about
this, this kid who like has toovercome his gender feels.
And it's a thing that both transwomen and trans men and
non-binary people, it's a thingthat all trans people will read
that story in Genesis and belike, oh yeah, okay, I get this.
(12:13):
And I think that like a lot ofcis people have enforced a
binary on that character in away that is not necessarily
helpful.
But there's other figures that,like when you think about them.
In terms of like historicpersonage there's a, there's a,
in the New Testament there's acharacter named the Ethiopian
(12:33):
Eunuch.
And at that time, peoplewould've understood that as a
gender variant person.
And I think that one thing thatoften gets sort of.
Foist it on Hart casework fromother Christians, from people
who are coming at it from a moreconservative angle is that he's
like writing about stuff in amodern context.
Mm.
(12:53):
And forcing his modernperspective on the Bible.
But I would say they also are.
The people who are his critics,because they're expecting like
Jesus to be in the Bible andsay, by the way, if you're
trans, it's fine.
And here's a hotline you cancall.
That's right.
To talk through your feelingswhen like they didn't have the
language we have now in, in sortof biblical times.
So like they had a differentlanguage for gender variance
(13:16):
that they would've understood.
That has largely been lost tous.
But that like scholarship canhelp us reclaim.
So I often say that, you know,trans people have been around as
long as there have been humansand like.
Our earliest works of literaturehave gender variant people in
them including the Bible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (13:34):
Alright, so I do wanna talk about the book, but
the, I do have to say the onething, and all this is gonna tie
in anyway, but I, when I waswhen I was looking up some stuff
on you mm-hmm.
My favorite thing that came upon Wikipedia was the first note
that said not to be confusedwith Emily St.
John Mandel.
Emily St. James (13:49):
Yeah.
Uhhuh.
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
Uhhuh.
Brett Benner (13:52):
Yep.
I love that.
Yeah.
All right, so for our viewers,our listeners, do you have,
like, do you have an elevatorpitch for woodworking?
Emily St. James (14:02):
I am not.
Emily St.
John Mendel.
Yes, exactly.
My apologies to everyone.
Brett Benner (14:07):
This is, this is not an apocalyptic novel about
the end of the world and yes.
Exactly.
Is
Emily St. James (14:12):
it though?
No.
Right, right.
She's, she's one of our bestliving novelists and I feel very
gratified to share an EmilySaint with her.
Yes.
Emily Saint J to be clear, abunch of letters.
I this is, it's very close, butyeah.
Yeah.
This is a, a book about a transwoman who comes out to herself
in her mid thirties and finallysort of self accepts and is
(14:34):
like, I am going to go on thejourney, what's next?
And she, the only other transwoman she knows is a 17-year-old
girl who's one of her highschool students.
And it's about the unlikelyfriendship that develops between
them and against the backdrop ofthe 2016 election.
Brett Benner (14:50):
that was very good.
It was very concise.
Emily St. James (14:52):
I've gotten, I've got, I was so bad at this a
year ago.
Brett Benner (14:54):
You've done it so much.
Yes.
You've done it so much.
I mean it, it, it's literallysounds like you're just going
into your pitch meeting.
Originally when I, I hadfinished the book and then I was
like, huh, I wonder why 2016?
And then of course I got, I, Iunderstood it completely.
Because I, I was like,unfortunately, we're, we're here
all over again.
At, at, at 2024.
(15:15):
I, I, I, I said when I finishedthis, I would give this book to
anyone who wanted to understandwhat it's like for any person
who was coming out as trans.
Yeah.
I felt it was one of the thingsI loved about it so much was you
were on this journey.
(15:35):
With Erica, who is our teacher.
And it's so beautifully done.
It's also on another side note,it's so damn funny.
I mean, I have to say, Abigail,this student, you must have had
the greatest time writing her, Iwould imagine.
(15:56):
She, yeah, and I, and I almostfeel like, tell me this, because
I imagine in my mind this islike two parts.
Of Emily playing out almost likeyou know, the journey.
And also it was it a little bitof who I want to be and who I
am.
Mm-hmm.
Is that how this was kind ofstructured for you
Emily St. James (16:16):
a bit, Erica?
Some of Erica's touchstones aresimilar to touchstones in my
life.
She's a bit more guileless thanI am.
She's a bit more has, she's bothsimultaneously more scared than
I was because the second I wasout, I was like, well, I gotta
do something about this.
And Erica is, is taking hersweet time.
I, I took my sweet time too, butfor different reasons.
(16:38):
And Abigail is much more, morejaded.
She has a, a, a very differentperspective on all of this.
They are both like, slightlymore intense than me in their
feelings.
It was interesting'cause I, Istarted the book in 2020.
I came out to myself in 2018.
I started medical transitionlater that year.
And in fact, we're coming up onthe seventh anniversary of me
(17:01):
coming out to myself.
It's a, it's a, it's a, it'swild to realize I've made it
that far.
But I, i, you know, startedmedical transition later that
year and I immediately like hadI, because I was a public
figure, I was writing as a, ajournalist at Vox at the time I
had to like, sort of thinkabout, okay, how am I gonna like
have my public self transition?
(17:23):
And so like.
A lot of Erica's angst when Istarted writing the book in 2020
was so present for me and I waslike able to tap into it so
easily.
And as I've worked on it, asI've worked on revisions, I've
gotten much closer to Abigailbecause Abigail has been, when
the book starts, she's beentransitioning for a while.
(17:44):
She's says 14 months.
So of course the over the courseof the book, she gets to 16
months transition and it's,it's, you know, she has a
different perspective becauseshe's been doing it for a while
and now she's realized thishasn't solved everything in her
life.
There's other stuff going onwith her trauma, with her mental
health, with whatever that shehas to like actually deal with.
(18:07):
I wanted to sort of captureelements of transition that I
don't see in a lot of transitionnarratives.
Because the second I realizedthis was gonna be a transition
narrative, I got very gun shyabout it.
'cause that's like the one transstory that, that cis people are
like interested in.
Certainly cis people have readother trans narratives, you
know, that aren't necessarilyabout transition, but it is.
(18:29):
It is, it is a big lift becausethat's the one thing cis people
understand about trans transnessis there's an before and an
after.
So I was like very cognizant ofthe fact that I was doing that.
So I was like, what are, what'sa transition narrative I haven't
seen before?
And it is about that periodbetween when you come out and
when you decide to like actuallylive your life and stuck in
that.
(18:50):
Part for the entirety of thebook and Abigail's is, you know,
after you've been transitioningfor a while and you realize
there's these things thathaven't been fixed by it that
you need to deal with still, andby necessity of where, you know,
of how much I got further andfurther from my transition the
early days of my transition, Ijust could relate to Abigail
(19:11):
Moore as the story went on.
And so I, I got very annoyedwith Erica in later drafts.
Like, I love her, but she is shecome, will come up with any
excuse to not make a choice.
And that was.
That was always hard to like,sort of massage and not make her
unbearable.
But yeah, like I loved, I lovedwriting both of them.
(19:31):
I love both of them.
Every time I spend time withthem, I feel great about it.
I'm, I'm a little sad that it'sdone because I don't get to hang
out with them anymore.
And I just, it's not a book thatwants a sequel, you know?
You get to the end of it andyou're like, yeah, it's fine.
Brett Benner (19:43):
I don't even know right now what that sequel would
be.
Emily St. James (19:46):
It would be very grim and dark because of
the times we live in.
Brett Benner (19:51):
I took this quote and I thought it kind of
encapsulated the two of them.
It said this is Erica andAbigail in conversation, and she
said, Erica listened toeverything Abigail said, but if
she was honest with herself,dismissed most of it.
The girl didn't understand howlucky she was.
She had thrown herself a ropefrom shore before she washed
away to sea, and now she got tosimply live her life.
Erica meanwhile had beenswimming against.
The riptide her whole life andgotten too good at it.
(20:13):
And I thought, wow, that's likeon the nose.
I loved that.
Explain the title I mean, it, itgets explained.
Sure.
But could you explain that forour listeners and our viewers?
Emily St. James (20:21):
I'm realizing how many water metaphors I use.
I'm like, what is that?
What's up with that, Emily?
What's going on there?
Woodworking is this conceptfrom.
Seventies, eighties transcommunity, which is basically
that you transition.
It's especially prominent amongtrans women.
I did find some instances oflike trans men using it really
(20:42):
though at the time thecommunities were quite separate
because of the nature of.
Communication at that time.
Certainly like they overlappedand, and knew each other, but
like their publications, whichis where a lot of this
information was disseminated inzines and things like that were
quite separate.
So it was mostly a, a term amongtrans women.
The idea was that you wouldtransition, you would get to a
(21:03):
point where you passed wellenough or extremely well, and
you would, basically cut off allties to your old life and
disappear into the woodwork.
You know, you would get married,you would get a job.
You would in essence become adifferent person without a past,
and that would be you know, howyou lived your life.
(21:24):
And that was a necessity at thattime for a lot of people.
They had.
Families who didn't understandthem, they were in danger.
If they sort of lived openly asa trans person where they were.
So they would just entirelydisappear and build something
new for themselves and just say,you know, this is who I've
always been.
(21:44):
I am a cis person.
I.
Although they wouldn't have usedthe term CIS at the time, and it
like, it was a ne necessity inmany cases for safety or for
whatever.
But it also wasn't tremendouslyalienating.
It was this like thing that.
Sort of ate away at many ofthem.
And I did talk to folks whoeither had done something like
(22:05):
that or had gone what we calldeep stealth, which is like just
the next step above, which islike a few people know you're
trans, maybe like a spouse or atrusted friend, but for the most
part you're living your life asa cis person.
And yeah, there's just a lot ofit that to them ended up
becoming incredibly lonelybecause they couldn't talk about
this part of their lives.
(22:26):
And then there's sort of thiswindow in the 2010s when it
seems like transness is becomingmore accepted, and a lot of
those folks started talkingabout it either openly or to
people like me.
And now I'm seeing it happen allover.
I'm seeing it happen withfriends.
Be like, you know what?
It's not safe anymore.
And I am going to, as much aspossible, live as a, as a, a cis
(22:46):
person, and I get thetemptation.
I kind like, I, I kind of, thereare days I wish I could do it.
I unfortunately have a Wikipediapage.
So it's, it's difficult for meto do that.
And also I wrote a novel aboutbeing trans.
But you know, it, there there isa part of me that's like, yeah,
if I could assimilate.
(23:07):
To entirely.
I get the temptation of thateven as I think like ultimately
that's not great for the transcommunity as a whole, as an
individual.
You do have to prioritize yoursafety to some extent.
So I get it.
And I'm also like, I think thatwe're gonna see, you know, 30
years from now, a lot of thesefolks like have just sort of
(23:29):
intense psychic angst.
Like what they had to do.
Brett Benner (23:32):
Yeah, and I, I think it was right after 45, 47
came back into office, I, I, Ithink it was Laverne Cox who I
saw speaking and said, and Idon't know if what terms she
used, if it was going deep orgoing dark, and she said, for
safety purposes, many of you mayhave to do this and do what you
(23:54):
need to do.
I thought of well beyondeverything, but I thought of so
many young people and I, I don'tknow, it's just it's, it, it's
so horribly upsetting.
Emily St. James (24:04):
Yeah, it's I think a lot about, like one
thing I thought about as I wasworking on the book was the
degree to which everyone on theplanet is woodworking to some
extent.
Like Erica spending a lot of thebook.
Disappearing into maleness.
A a sort of costume that fitsher poorly, but that people will
(24:24):
accept on her is a form ofwoodworking and it's a form of
woodworking.
A lot of people who either knowor suspect they're trans avail
themselves of every day.
And I can't say like, youshouldn't do that.
You know, it's especially ifit's for safety.
You know, I like I think aboutthis a lot in terms of.
Needing advocates in the legalsystem, in journalism, in the PO
(24:47):
political system, there aremaybe just people who just like
for safety are going to staycloseted and as long as they're
like not making our livesactively worse, I'm not gonna
like judge them for that choiceat this point in time.
But you know this is also a bookabout a woman who's pregnant and
is like uninterested in being amother, but this is the thing
(25:09):
that's been placed upon her.
And is she woodworking a littlebit and pretending that this is
like a thing she wants everycharacter in the book is hiding
from some fundamental part ofthemselves.
And that, that's the thing Ithink is, is universally
applicable.
Not to be like, and cis peoplecan enjoy this book too, but cis
people can enjoy this book too.
Brett Benner (25:30):
Well, it's also what we, you know, think code
switching now and, and the waythat people do that, I mean,
certainly as a queer person,there's been more than enough
times and you know.
I've been in the entertainmentbecause I work in the
entertainment business, as doyou, and I've been here long
enough to all of a sudden knowif I'm passing in a certain room
to hear certain comments beingmade that would they necessarily
(25:50):
be made if at the outseteverybody knew my sexuality
would that, you know?
Yeah.
And so and that's it.
It, it becomes this jarringmoment of like, wow, okay, so
was I wise enough to keep mymouth shut?
So I got a.
Insight into how these peopleactually think, or is it wiser
to open my mouth and say, Hey,you know what, that that's not
right because X, Y, Z.
(26:12):
So, but I think, you know,people do it all the time for a
variety of reasons, and itdoesn't have to be gender or
sexuality.
It's just we're changing basedon who we are and, and
potentially who we're with.
It's an also really interestingdynamic between Erica and
Abigail because you've reversedthe parent child dynamic.
(26:34):
Yeah.
Emily St. James (26:34):
Yeah.
And like I was thinking, I'vebeen thinking about how much
consternation there is right nowabout teachers.
Warping their students' minds orwhatever.
And this is a book where the,the student is the one who tells
the teacher, you know, here'swhat you need to do.
And like, yeah.
I think that that is asubversion of what people expect
hopefully in a way that theyenjoy.
(26:55):
But certainly I imagine there'ssome like.
Like conservative, somebodysomewhere who's like, oh, this
is a book about a teacher and astudent and transness.
That's exactly what we're afraidof.
But yeah, a, a thing thatappealed to me was that it is a
book about a mother and adaughter, but that applies both
ways.
Abigail knows more about beingtrans, and Erika does and can
(27:15):
instruct her in those ways, butshe's also 17 and Abigail's 35,
or Erica's 35.
Mm-hmm.
And so Erica knows so much moreabout like life.
Then Abigail does.
And so there's the moretraditional maternal thing.
Abigail is no longer talking toher, the mother who raised her
and has a variety of motherfigures, and Erica sort of
(27:36):
becomes one of those.
But also, you know Abigail'sthere to be like give Erica a, a
kick in the butt when she needsone.
And that's that's a verymaternal thing to do as well.
So I, I liked the way that theycould be.
Each be both to each other.
Brett Benner (27:52):
Now, you were obviously going through
revisions of this while, likethe beginning of being a parent,
correct?
Uhhuh?
Yes.
Yes.
And how has that experience beenbeing a parent, being a mom and,
and how, and obviously, yourtransness is going to influence
your raising of your child justthe same way any parent is who
they are is.
(28:13):
How's the experience been?
You're in the fun place.
Emily St. James (28:16):
I, I, extremely fun.
That's what I say every day whenI wake up.
No, my kid is two and testingboundaries and we love to see
it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's I yeah.
I think that becoming a mominfluenced this book in a number
of ways.
The first thing is like.
I had, so I mentioned earlierErica's ex-wife Constance is
pregnant, and I didn't know whatto do with that plot point for a
(28:40):
long time.
I like really struggled with howdo I resolve this because a
pregnancy is a ticking clock ina book.
And like I either neededConstance to have that baby or
to have an abortion.
And it was a thing where I waslike sort of struggling with how
to resolve that.
And then once I had a kid, allof that sort of clicked into
(29:04):
place in a way that like, mm, itmade more sense to me like why
you would not want to have ababy.
It made more sense to me.
All of these sort of things inConstance brain that had felt
theoretical to me suddenly feltpresent.
So it really helped with that,but it also helped with like.
I think I have a pretty strongmaternal urge to like two people
(29:24):
around me who need help.
And I like sometimes overextendmyself in that regard.
So having a kid helped me pullback on that, but I could be
maternal to all the charactersin the book.
I could like sort of want whatwas best for them while also
watching them make their ownmistakes.
I, I'm working on the secondbook now.
What's gonna be book two andit's, it, it is, it is very much
(29:47):
about motherhood is involved inthere a lot.
I think that it is a theme thatI'm drawn to.
And also if you look at a lot oftrans literature, it is trans by
written, by trans women, Ishould say it is inherently
engaged with motherhood.
Detransition baby very much is,Nevada has that element to it.
Mm-hmm.
It is this thing of like.
We all sort of there is this,this primal urge in a lot of us,
(30:12):
not all of us, to have a motheror to be a mother.
And then we serve in thoseroles, both of those roles for
people in our community.
And woodworking is really kindof about that and like trying to
find your maternal instinctwithin that.
But as the book ends, you know,it.
It also understands theserelationships are transitory.
(30:32):
Erica and Abigail are not goingto be in each other's lives to
the extent they are for theperiod covered in the book for
the rest of their lives.
They're, they're different ages,they're different people.
Certainly if they bump into eachother and, you know, super
Walmart in 10 years, they'regonna have a long conversation,
but they're not, you know,meeting up to have.
Discussions about likefingernail polish all the time.
Brett Benner (30:53):
You know, speaking of it, it is very much, the book
is very much of a moment, right?
For all of these characters.
Mm-hmm.
And two of the other kind ofancillary characters, both of
her in Abigail's life, who Ijust loved so much was her
boyfriend, Uhhuh and also herbest friend.
Yes.
Who, and what I love again aboutthe way that.
You've had Abigail approach.
(31:16):
even these relationships, and Ishould say their names are Megan
and Caleb, but she's almostkicking her feet into all of
these things.
Like any kind of relationshipYeah.
That she gets into.
She's very resistant anduntrustworthy.
It's like, okay, I know whatthis is.
Like, let's just cut thebullshit.
Okay.
If we need to get to likewhatever it is.
And I love that about her, firstof all, I, Caleb was just so
(31:37):
damn sweet that I just adoredhim.
And I think everybody absolutelyknows one of these, these boys
yeah, who are just trying tofigure it out and has all of
these emotions that are wrappedup in this that is kind of as,
as heart as leading his headthey're both incredibly sweet
characters.
Emily St. James (31:56):
Yeah, I, I really think of all the
supporting characters.
If someone were to rewrite thisbook from one of their
perspectives, Caleb is the onewho would be the most
interesting for a variety ofreasons, how he intersects with
the story in multiple ways.
You wouldn't get a lot of theErica stuff'cause he just
doesn't care about it very much.
Right.
But like he's adopted.
(32:17):
I am adopted myself when I, whenI moved from Michigan to South
Dakota, that's why I was adoptedas a baby.
Caleb is a transracial adoptee.
He was adopted an internationaladoptee as well.
He's adopted from China to awhite family in the United
States.
So that aspect of his life isvery different from mine.
But this idea of being adoptedas a baby and moving to South
Dakota is a thing that happenedto me.
(32:39):
So I could sort of like.
Tap into that experience alittle bit, and I was very, like
a lot of international adopteeshave this like.
As adults, like really come tothink about that experience as a
traumatic one because I alwayshesitate to like, to like, talk
about this too, forthrightly,but adoption, the adoption of a
(33:01):
child is a, is a traumatic actfor that child.
And we can, they can be adoptedinto the best family in the
world, and many of them are, andthey can have a wonderful
experience and they can haveparents who help them deal with
that, that trauma.
But it's there.
You know, when you are a baby,you imprint on someone and then
that person goes away andsuddenly are with someone else.
And I do think Caleb's parentsare good parents and they're
(33:25):
doing their best and they'retrying as hard as they can.
I also think he's gonna get tocollege.
He's gonna get out into theworld in his twenties and be
like, this thing that happenedto me where I was effectively
sold as a commodity is reallyscrewed up and I really like,
need to think about what thatmeans for me.
And I wanted to like nod to thefact that he has these feelings,
(33:49):
but also that he's.
17, 17, 18 and hasn't had thespace to really process them
'cause he still lives with hisparents.
And so I, I, I hoped that Icould get little, little
glimmers of that.
And I've heard from someinternational adoptees who were
like very pleased with sort ofthat aspect of it.
(34:10):
I, I, my, my best friend in highschool, my Megan Osborn was an
international adoptee herself,and she, she very much informed
the character of Caleb.
You know, even though differentin many ways.
I also think like I'm interestedin the way that his attraction
to Abigail makes him think abouthis own relationship to his
sexuality, what he might thinkof as queerness.
(34:31):
I think that Caleb is probablyquite straight, but I also think
that this is like a thing thatgives him a little window into
some other part of himself.
I, I do think he's.
Very fascinating.
Oh
Brett Benner (34:42):
my God.
And a hundred percent also,like, I don't know what the,
the, the racial makeup of his inSouth Dakota, but I can't
imagine, you know, I, I wouldimagine it's 98% white.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Emily St. James (34:52):
It's, yeah, I think it's 97% white and most of
the people of color there areindigenous and of course, very.
Highly segregated onto, yeah.
Reservations.
So you, you certainly have asmall commun a community of, of
black people, particularly inthe large cities.
You have slightly largercommunities of, of Asian people,
(35:14):
but most of whom are adopted bywhite families.
It is.
It is a place where there, therewasn't a lot of immigration
until very recently.
So it, it's been, yeah, it,it's, it's a place that is very
white and less white by theyear, but certainly still that
damn immigration.
Yeah, it's it, it's certainlyis, is a, a thing.
(35:37):
In terms of Megan, I reallylike, as I was thinking about
how to structure.
This book, which is built aroundit, it's a series, a book about
a series of relationships inboth halves.
It, it is theoretically abouttransition, but transition
ceases to be, its drivingnarrative force pretty quickly,
(35:57):
and it is much more about.
A number of other things.
And the Meghan thing was, Ireally like had these two
relationships for Abigail andfor a long time the book played
out as like kind of a will they,won't they with Caleb, will he
be into her, you know, willtheir relationship go public or
(36:18):
is it gonna remain thisclandestine thing?
And Megan was just kind of thereand I realized like in, in a way
that people really enjoyed.
She was always a supportingcharacter.
People were into, and what Ikind of realized is like it
helped both of them.
If the person Abigail likeglommed onto immediately it was
Caleb and if like theirrelationship went public, goes
(36:39):
public very early in the book.
So like suddenly it's this thingthat helped that plot a lot.
And then if the will, theywon't, they was with Megan and
it was about a friendship.
It was like, am I gonna actuallytrust a person enough?
I'm gonna be vulnerable enoughwith a person enough to let her
be my friend.
And so like when you get to theend of the book, you could see
which of those relationships isgoing to outlive the book.
(37:02):
And I think, I thought that was,that ended up being more
interesting than like.
Abigail instantly decides Meghanis her friend, and Abigail and
Caleb have a will day, won'tthey?
Because like I've seen both ofthose before and this felt like
a neat way to subvert both.
Brett Benner (37:16):
And I love the idea of what you just said, of a
life that exists for thesecharacters beyond the, the last
page.
Yeah.
And those are the two that youthink, yeah, these girls will
exist beyond these pages in somecapacity.
The,
Emily St. James (37:28):
the one, the one thing where, like, when I
think about the future versionsof this book, the one thing I
wanna see are more AbigailMeghan scenes, because I think.
They are such an interesting duoand like a, like who are they
when they're in their senioryear of college and like what is
what is happening with them?
You know, it's it's a reallycool, sweet relationship.
I, my, I remember my note to theperson who does the audio book
(37:50):
on Megan was, she thinks she'sLeslie Note, but she's actually
Tracy Flick and like, I thinkthat's that's my favorite kind
of person.
Brett Benner (37:57):
Yeah.
I love that.
I would almost love to see likea standalone of what happens to
Megan when she grows up in termsof her journey, her, if it's her
sexuality, what herrelationships look like.
Emily St. James (38:08):
When when I have, I, I, I can't believe I
keep talking about a sequel, athing I will never write when I
have thought about like what asequel might look like.
It is like basically a shortstory collection about
interesting, the supportingcharacters.
Interesting.
But all of them are like.
In different genres.
That's, that is one thing I kindof have enjoyed about this book
is that as much as all thesecharacters are in the same book,
(38:29):
they're all kind of in differentstories.
And like I, you're writing
Brett Benner (38:31):
your own, you're
Emily St. James (38:32):
writing your own sound fiction stories, but
Yeah.
You know, I think, I think likea Kelly Link style story
starring Constance.
Yeah.
Makes a lot of sense.
A very like Aaron Sony politicsstory with.
With, with Helen, the, thecandidate like, would make a lot
of sense.
Then Ruth Caleb's sister, I wantlike a die hard style, like she
has to take out a bunch ofterrorists.
Like that feels like what shewould get up to.
Brett Benner (38:53):
So, okay, so I know we were talking in the
beginning you said, you know, Ididn't like set out to write a,
a political book that, thateverything's political and
reading is political, but isthere something that you hope
the book can accomplish?
Emily St. James (39:04):
I hope that this book goes and finds people
who have as the Bible would haveit ears to hear people who are
willing to listen to its story,to understand that these are
just.
People who have this, this thingin their lives that they're just
trying to deal with is the wrongword, but it's the one that
(39:25):
comes to mind there.
People with this aspect of theirlives that is important to them
but is not frightening in anyway, is maybe a better way to
put it, that there there is alot of consternation around
trans people and around us beingfrauds and around us, like
sneaking into spaces to, dosomething untoward to, to create
(39:48):
a to create bad situations.
And that couldn't be furtherfrom the truth.
And also, you know, in manysenses makes literally no sense
as just like how people behaveor like how it, it would even
function.
So I hope that people who maybedon't know a trans person but
are curious.
And willing to listen, find thisbook and read it and hopefully
(40:11):
take something from Erica andAbigail.
I also hope it finds transpeople who are feel lost in the
dark and are either in a placewhere they don't get a lot of
affirmation or are in a place intheir lives where they've been.
Hiding for whatever reason fromthemselves whether they
transitioned 30 years ago andhave been woodworking, or they
(40:31):
just came out a month ago anddon't know what to do next.
I hope it, I hope it finds themand I hope it speaks to them.
Brett Benner (40:37):
That's, that's amazing.
And one thing, and I will postthis as well in the show notes
is the, the website for assignedmedia, which is fantastic and
you have spoken about thatbefore, which is a great news
source for trans people, but foreveryone I.
Which is giving factual coverageof what's happening to and with
trans people.
Yeah, so it can kind of separatethe wheat from the chaff and so
(40:58):
you know, actually what'shappening and not what the spin
is or what's being told for,like, for politics.
Emily St. James (41:02):
And they are very good at going into like
studies and going into data andbeing like, okay, yeah, this
like.
Cuts against the prevailingtrans narrative or, you know,
in, within the trans community.
Like this is a thing we need totalk about.
Like, they have done a lot ofresearch into actual rates of
detransition, which is not asbig of a problem as the media
would, would have.
Its be, but it's not as thoughthere are no people who
(41:25):
detransition.
But they've gotten into like thecomplexities of what that means,
how those people relate to thetrans community in a way that's
so much more nuanced thananything you'll read in you
know, a, a more mainstreampublication.
Brett Benner (41:36):
Yeah.
Well, this was fantastic.
You're a joy and hilarious thebook again, please, people go
get it or get the audio byIndependent if you can.
But it's, it's truly a special,special, terrific book and
congratulations.
Emily St. James (41:52):
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
I, I do one of the voices in theaudio, so, oh.
You do?
I do one, one of them.
I'm, I'm not gonna say who, butnow that, now that I'm not gonna
say who.
You probably know who.
Brett Benner (42:04):
Well, now I'm going back to, I've gotta go get
it.
I mean, now I have to absolutelylisten to it.
so if one of you listeners orviewers out there hear it before
I do, tell me who she is.
All right, thanks.
And, uh, I'll be back withanother episode next week.
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