June 17, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with author Jess Walter to discuss his new book, "So Far Gone". They talk about which character he's written he relates to the most, the backdrop of Spokane Washington, and the eternal battle we all currently face.
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https://www.jesswalter.com
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https://www.instagram.com/jesswalterbooks/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:01):
Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack.
I hope you had a great weekendwherever you are.
I actually.
Just got back a little bit agofrom one of the no kings
protests here in Los Angeles,which was really fantastic.
I went to the West Hollywood oneand amazing crowd, amazing show
(00:23):
of people.
Dustin Lance Black spoke and hewas just fantastic, but it
really gave a needed boost ofsolidarity and.
Just community, which was sofantastic.
So, before we get into ourauthor chat today, I wanted to
just to talk about a few otherbooks that were coming out
(00:44):
today.
The first is by Nikki Erlichcalled The Poppy Fields.
Nikki Erlich wrote the book, theMeasure, which was a bestseller
a few years ago.
This one says, A high concept,speculative novel about
heartache, hope, and humanresilience.
The poppy fields explores thepath of grief and healing, a
journey at once profoundlyuniversal and unique to every
person posing the questions.
(01:04):
How do we heal in the wake ofgreat loss and how?
Far are we willing to go inorder to be healed?
Then I'm reading this one rightnow and it is so good, but
definitely triggering, which isJoyce Carol LO's New book Fox, A
spell binding novel of literaryand psychological suspense about
(01:26):
the dark secrets at surfaceafter the shocking disappearance
of a charismatic mecurialteacher at an elite.
Boarding school by the legendaryauthor who's surely on any
shortlist of America's greatestliving writers.
It is really well done.
I think this is the first timethat Joyce Carol oes is really
tackling something like this,which is really kind of a
(01:46):
mystery thriller.
But, it's fantastic so far.
Then.
Controversial author James Fray,his new book Next to Heaven
comes out today, which sounds alittle soapy and fun.
I think there's almost morepublicity about James Fray than
there is the book itselfcomments that he made about
using AI to write his books, notto mention his past history with
(02:10):
Oprah Winfrey for hisautobiography that he wrote and
apparently made up large partsof, but, this is about a group
of people, very wealthy peoplein New Bethlehem, Connecticut,
and a party that is thrown andbefore the night is over,
someone is going to be murdered.
There'll be multiple betrayalsand, Events that will shatter
(02:30):
new Bethlehem's, carefullyconstructed facade.
I have to be honest, it stillsounds kind of fun regardless of
all the scandal surrounding him.
Jason Green has his new bookcame out today, UN World, from
the author of Once More, we SawStars Comes a gripping novel
about.
Four intertwined lives thatcollide in the wake of a
mysterious tragedy set in a nearfuture world where the
boundaries between human and AIblur the story, challenges our
(02:53):
understanding and consciousnessof humanity.
So those are just some of thebooks that are out today.
Now, onto today's author, I wasreally thrilled to sit down with
author Jess Walter for his newbook.
So Far Gone, I've been a big fanof Jess Walter's work for a long
time, so this was absolutely atreat for me and he's just the
(03:15):
nicest guy.
So, a little bit about Jess.
He's the author of 10 books mostrecently, the Story Collection,
the Angel of Rome and thebestselling novels, the Code
Millions and Beautiful Ruins,the Zero finalist for the
(03:36):
National Book Award, and CitizenVance, winner of the Edgar
Award.
His work has been published inthe 34 languages and his short
fiction has won O Henry andPushcart Prizes and appeared
three times in Best Americanshort stories.
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
(03:59):
I'm, I'm Brett.
It's, it's, yeah.
It's really great to meet you.
Jess Walter (04:02):
Nice to meet you Brett.
Brett Benner (04:03):
I'm such a fan of your work, so I was, thanks.
I was really, uh, tickled thatyou were coming on today.
Jess Walter (04:07):
Thanks Brett.
It's great to be here.
Brett Benner (04:09):
You've had, you know, a myriad of novels, seven
novels, two collections of shortstories, a nonfiction book.
You were the recipient of theeighth Ground poll award.
You were the finalist for theNational Book Award in 2006.
I was just looking yesterday onseven of your books have
received, one of those covetedstars on Kirkus for whatever
that's worth.
I know, but, but people seem tolike those things.
(04:30):
You've lived in Spokane yourwhole life, right?
Jess Walter (04:33):
I have, I mean, I guess, you know, I did go 15
miles away for college.
So, but yeah, and I, it's justbecome this great home base.
I, I was one of those kids whowanted to leave from the time I
was about seven, and then familyresponsibilities kind of kept me
here and, and then at thismoment I realized I was from
this place.
(04:53):
And so I venture out quite abit, but it's, it's my home.
Brett Benner (04:57):
something else that I, that I read about you is
that you, and I'm sure this iswhat the many writers have this
as well, that you're writingmultiple things at once.
How do you balance that and howalso does that, is it one voice
begins to become more pertinentor more nagging to you that that
kind of takes the lead?
Or how do you balance that?
And when do you write?
Are you a morning person or?
I am a morning person.
Jess Walter (05:18):
I was, I got out here, it's, uh, 8:00 AM uh.
In, uh, Spokane and I got outhere at five and, um, wrote for
a couple of hours.
I'm working on a short story.
I just went to hear this experttalk about ai, a financial
expert talking about all howmuch money is gonna be made in,
in ai.
And so I was, I've been workingon this short story about a guy
(05:38):
like him who gives apresentation.
So, um, and that's often the wayI'll work.
I have a novel that I'm workingon, but, I became so terrified
of writer's block when I firstleft my newspaper job, and I was
just deathly afraid someone wasgonna come drag me out of my
comfy office here.
And although I didn't have thisoffice then and make me go back
(05:59):
to my newspaper desk, and sowhen something would, when the
writing on a project would.
Become stuck or or I couldn'tfind my way around something.
I got into this habit of juststarting something else, and at
the time it seemed like a fatalflaw that I wouldn't ever finish
anything.
And so I'm writing this novelabout.
Italy and Hollywood in the 1960sand I just keep getting stuck in
(06:24):
it and dropping it and writingsomething else and, and it
wasn't until I finishedBeautiful Ruins after working
out for 15 years off and on likethat, and having other projects
come bump in.
That I realized how, maybe it'skind of singular that I work
this way, but just how effectiveit was because that novel got
better every time I came back toit.
And every time I allowed myselfto work on something else, I
(06:47):
became a different, betterwriter with more experiences.
And so now I just don't fightit.
I write.
Something until I sort of hit awall.
And that wall can last two orthree days, but then I try to
switch to something else and,and then when I come back to
that thing that I was stuck on,I, I always find that I see it
with a kind of clarity that Ididn't before.
(07:07):
And that's just sort of the wayI've always worked.
And it also allows me to veeroff into different forms,
different genres, differentvoices.
It's almost like being an actorand.
Just looking through the offersand seeing which jobs you can
take, it's like, oh, I wannaplay this role.
I wanna play that role.
You know?
And that for me is kind ofthrilling.
(07:28):
I mean, maybe I'm a characteractor of novelists.
Brett Benner (07:31):
Now, wait, do you, when you go back to something.
Are you a revisionistimmediately or did you Oh yeah.
Just moving forward and then goback.
Jess Walter (07:38):
I go back to page one and it's interesting how,
while I'm away, an idea, avision of the thing starts to
sort of crystallize and Irealize what it is I love about
that piece and
Brett Benner (07:49):
Mm.
Jess Walter (07:50):
And then.
And it isn't necessarily that Iknow what I don't like, but I
know what I feel like needs tobe retained in the revision.
When I went back to the Coldmillions novel, you know, set in
the early words, I realized I'vegot too many speeches in here.
What I really love is this sortof steinbeckian language and
playing with it in that way.
(08:10):
And so what brings me back tothe book is sort of what I
concentrate on, but now I goback to, it's funny, the first
sentence of beautiful ruins ca,a dying actress arrived in his.
Arrived in his village, the onlyway one could come directly in a
boat that motored into the coveand bumped against the rock
jetty.
That sentence had 4,000different iterations.
The actress arrived in hisvillage.
(08:31):
You know, the actress came tohis village.
His village was, the actress wasdying, period.
You know Oh, right.
In a Hemingway style.
And every time I go back I wouldkind of rework those sentences
and find my way back into it.
And, and I do that when I startwriting every day.
I.
Go back a page or two and readwhat I've done to sort of
immerse myself back in thatvoice and time and place.
(08:52):
And it's probably the one habitthat I find myself forgetting
and having to write, remindmyself is if I read it out loud
and hear it, then it feels somuch, then I can find my way
back into it.
Brett Benner (09:04):
Interesting.
I love all that stuff you saidin terms of equating it to even
being an actor.
And it made me wonder, is thereone, is there one.
Character that you've writtenthat you personally identify
with the most?
Jess Walter (09:15):
Wow, that's so interesting.
I have found myself writinginordinately about actors in,
um, in my last story collection,the Angel of Rome, the main
story, the Angel of Rome, isabout a guy who bumps into an
actor and that kind of changeshis life.
There's a story in there calledFamous Actor, beautiful Ruins,
of course has actors in, so I, Ido quickly found myself
connected to that, to that styleof art.
(09:37):
Again, being able to play allthese different.
Parts and throw yourself, throwyourself into them.
But I think the character thatalways I related to the most was
Pasquale, who spends his wholelife in this small town, in
Italy.
And I have absolutely nothingelse in common with him except
that we both sort of dreamed ofa larger world and then did our
(09:57):
best to bring the larger worldto the place where we lived.
He tries to build this massiveresort, and it's all in his
mind.
I'm gonna build a tennis courton a cliff, and the Americans
are gonna come and for me.
Um, taking what's in my mind andthen bringing it out to the
world, often said in stories inSpokane or around Spokane was a
(10:17):
way to, you know, to have thatlarger world while staying here
and taking care of, you know, mykids and my mom who was dying
and my dad who had Alzheimer'sand, you know, all these sort of
responsibilities that piled up,that, you know, caused me to, in
a, in a, uh, Frank Capra, it's awonderful life way, sort of stay
in my hometown and make the bestof it.
(10:38):
All those things, um, you know,enriched my life in this way
that now I wouldn't trade asecond of them.
But I, I did have to find a wayto bring the world to the place
where I lived.
Brett Benner (10:50):
I love that.
It also made me think of that,you know, that I think it was
John Lennon life was whathappens when you're busy making
other plans.
Yeah.
And uh.
So for our viewers, listeners,do you have a kind of elevator
pitch since we're talking to,you know, actors?
Yeah.
For, uh, for the book?
Jess Walter (11:09):
Yeah.
Maybe an escalator pitch.
Okay.
Brett Benner (11:11):
Yeah.
Jess Walter (11:11):
That's great.
Slow sort of rise.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, the novel reallycame from this i, this sensation
I had starting about two yearsago that I wanted to just close
myself off from the news fromthe world.
I had a sense we were driftinginto Trump.
Part two and, and more than evenpolitics or party or anything
like that, it was just the, theway in which truth had been
(11:33):
undermined and we could notagree on a common reality.
So the idea of throwing yourcell phone out a window and just
disappearing was for me, whatdrove the novel.
And so that's what the novel'sabout.
It's a former environmentalreporter named Reese Kinnick who
just decides one day he is hadenough of his conspiracy
theorist son-in-law and he.
Punches him in the face, throwshis phone out the window and
(11:55):
retreats to a piece of familyland with, an abandoned, cinder
block house in it.
And, and he stays there forseven years.
And when the novel starts, twokids are on his porch and he
comes out and asks if they'reselling magazines or chocolate
bars and they inform him thatthere is grandchildren and.
From that moment, Reese Kinnickhas to come out of his life and
(12:15):
confront the world that has notgotten any saner since he's been
gone and try to track down hisgrandchildren and, and his
daughter who's gone missing.
Brett Benner (12:26):
I wanna start just simply with the title.
Yeah.
Because it's so loaded in somany ways.
It is.
Yeah.
There, you know, there's.
From Reese, from the country.
Yeah.
From, escaping from society.
All of it.
Yeah.
It's just, it's, it's such aperfect title.
There's no question there.
It's just an observation.
Jess Walter (12:46):
Yeah.
Thank you.
It was, it's as always, I hadthree, two or three titles
battling for, for the, for thetop of the book, and it was late
in the book, and I was writingabout.
One of the characters who hasdementia, and they remarked that
he's so far gone that there'snot much left.
And I just thought that was mysubconscious telling me that
that is what the book's about.
It's, and it's a, it is both aquestion like who, who's
(13:09):
reachable still.
Um, and this happens infamilies.
I mean, I don't think we've evercome to a place where politics
has fissure families.
Since the 1960s and in the 1960sit was establishment parents and
their anti-establishmentchildren.
And now it's something I think,deeper and darker.
And so you know who, you know,which of your family that, that
(13:32):
heads off in these directions istoo far gone, you know?
And is Kinnick too far gone?
Is he so far gone in his, inhis, um, denial of the world
that he can't come back to it?
So it did feel to me exactlylike the title I was looking at.
Brett Benner (13:45):
Yeah, I was.
I was going back, and you cancorrect me if I'm wrong on this,
but I, I woke up this morning, Iwas thinking about it and
thought, you never really make areference, or there's not really
a direct reference bymentioning, say, Trump by name,
which I think is so interestingbecause all of a sudden I
realized when I was thinkingabout the, this morning, I
thought.
Okay.
Well that's what I've put on it.
That's immediately, yeah.
(14:06):
I mean, you're certainly talkingabout, but you're talking about,
you know, white militias andyou're talking about
nationalism, but without puttingthat particular person to it,
it's just of the time period.
But of course, I just think it'sfascinating the way, you know,
someone's mind immediatelyconnects and it's like, oh,
they're Trumpers, they'reTrumpers.
(14:27):
Right, just because of where weare right now.
Yeah.
And even what an American flaghas come to represent for so
many of us on either side,whether right, wherever you are.
But was that intentional on yourpart?
Did you?
Very much, yeah.
Jess Walter (14:40):
I mean, I, it, it, it's an interesting balance.
I, because I come from anewspaper background, I'm often
drawn to writing about what'shappening now, and I, uh, I
wrote a novel called TheFinancial Lives of the Poets
about the 2008 financial crisis.
I wrote a novel about.
Our reaction to terrorism afternine 11.
And so I really am drawn, butyou also, I, I have a little
(15:04):
note that I wrote myself yearsago.
Uh, a novel is a terrible way tobreak news because, because by
the time it comes out, peopleknow this is the world we live
in, and so it has to do morethan that.
And so to make it universal, I Iwanted to give Reese specific
things.
He was.
Angry about it, but one thingthat never goes away is the, the
(15:25):
battle between reality and thestories we tell ourselves to
make ourselves or to justify ourbehavior.
Mm-hmm.
One of my favorite books is ofall time, and I go back to it,
is Resistance, rebellion andDeath by Albert Camus, who's
writing about World War II andthe Algerian situation and, um,
these amazing essays.
He writes with a German friendand he tells the German friend
(15:48):
are.
You are purposefully ignoringreality, you know, to to push
forward the things you believe.
And to me that's a much deeper,larger thing than which party
wins, which candidate wins.
You know, Reese is definitelyagainst the right word tilt of
the country, but it's morebecause of its effects.
It's not, again, which partywins.
(16:09):
And to me that was important.
It was important to make italmost a philosophical argument
and not one that is battled outon the op-ed pages.
Brett Benner (16:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, it's interesting becausewe're watching in the last year
or so, a lot of books that havestarted to come out are
reflective of the COVID era.
Mm-hmm.
The COVID crisis, the lockdown,all those kind of things.
Um, and yet it's interesting tohear you say that you wrote this
so fairly, it seems fairly quickfor you in terms of two years,
right.
Jess Walter (16:38):
Yeah, if this was a faster novel in part because it
just felt so immediate and alsothe structure of it.
I mean, my other novelsbeautiful Ruin the last two
novels, beautiful ruins in thecold.
Millions have casts of hundredsnow.
There's so many characters.
Yeah.
Different voices.
They take place over years andyears.
50 years for beautiful ruins.
(16:59):
Um, and this one takes place ina few days.
I had just come off a CharlesPortis kick and Charles Port
Portis is one of my favoritewriters.
And you know, I.
Whether it's true Grit orNorwood or Dog of the South, he
tends to set up a situation andthen there's a road trip and I,
and I really wanted to givemyself that challenge.
I wanted to write a Portis likenovel.
(17:21):
And so it is, it was a coupleyears and it was, and the other
thing Portis does is he neverallows the seriousness of the
situation to get in the way ofhis.
Humorous philosophy.
He sees the world the way in acomic way, not comic like a
standup comic, but in a way inwhich our folly reveals itself
(17:42):
and reveals itself in thecharacters.
And that's also the way I seethe world.
And so it was very muchintentional.
See how quickly can I turn thismoment that we're in into
something that I think is fastand funny, but has this
seriousness at the, at the heartof it that we are all dealing
with.
Brett Benner (17:59):
How do you, Jess?
Grapple with, well, I'll just,because this is a thing that
comes up for Reese, but kind ofprotecting yourself from the
onslaught of all the bullshit.
Jess Walter (18:13):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (18:14):
In terms of this current.
Jess Walter (18:15):
Yeah, that, um, there was a, a cartoon I saw and
it was this, um, freeway and itsaid, uh, can't get enough.
And then, and then there wasthis OnRamp can't take anymore.
And I feel like we're all thatway with the news.
We're like, ah.
And then all of a sudden youjust, you know, everyone talks
about, I went on a media diet, Iwent on media fast, I quit
(18:38):
Twitter, I quit this, you know,and that, and just think of
that, that we are so inundatedand.
Depressed and frustrated that wehave to turn off, you know, the,
we have to not pay attention.
And feeling that urge in myselfand thinking that urge was
probably not very healthy.
That's exactly why I wrote thenovel, was I wanna see if I
(19:00):
turned away from all of this, ifI allowed cynicism to cause me
to no longer care about theplight of a student who protests
and then gets.
Sent out of the country, if Ijust decide to tune out what,
what's the effect of that?
And often as you do in fiction,you make the, the situation much
more intense and put more atstake.
(19:21):
But you know, my first book wasabout Ruby Ridge.
Shootout in North Idahoinvolving, um, a white
separatist family in the FBI.
And so in my way in my world,I've been dealing with the, the
push pull of this extremism andthe response to it and the
(19:42):
bending of reality and people.
Wanting to see whatever storythey see in these, in, in these
events since 1992.
And, um, and so in some waysthis is not new.
This is an eternal battle thatwe fight and, and we have to
come down on the side of truthand justice as, as cliched and
(20:03):
superman and boring as itsounds.
We have to keep, you know,that's what the battle is.
It's not a battle betweenparties or elephants and donkeys
or, you know.
Brett Benner (20:13):
Right.
Jess Walter (20:14):
Eagles and pickup trucks.
It's, it's, it's between realityand non-reality.
And, um, and so, you know, Ithink that's how I deal with it
is by, it doesn't mean I have todonate to a cause or March or
anything like that, but I haveto stand on the side of justice
and truth, and I think that'swhat the characters have to
find.
Brett Benner (20:35):
And I couldn't help but think of this too, it
in terms of, I'm so interestedto see now when this goes out
into the mass world, people'sreactions to it.
Because, you know, I know likethere's plenty of authors,
Stephen King, Katherine Newman,anybody who writes anything that
has any kind of, you know, whichcould be perceived as a
political bent to it could get,you know, swathed, you know,
(20:56):
painted with a, a brush.
And so I'm sure you're aware ofthat or aware that could happen.
I don't even know what I'mtrying to ask really.
I'm just, yeah.
It's, I, I, I
Jess Walter (21:09):
mean, of course it's a concern and some people
will say, I get enough of thisin the news.
I don't need to read about thisRight on my off time.
And there are people who look tobooks for escape and this, you
know, I think, um, the humorand, and the, uh, and the
suspense and the kind of theaction in it all for a different
kind of escape.
But I also feel like.
(21:29):
Books have many differentpurposes, and one of them is to
reflect the as.
Again, to go back to my guy,Camus, he called it the wager of
your generation.
And I think this is the wager ofour generation.
Are we gonna turn away?
Are we gonna pay attention?
And you know, I having writtennovels that were very timely,
like the financial lives of thepoets, I know that they have a
(21:51):
moment when they arrive.
And then they keep living andthey, and it's amazing how
prescient many books can beyears after they come out.
You know, we read them now andwe say, this person speaking to
the world we're in now.
And so I think you just try tostrike that balance.
I learned long ago that noteveryone is gonna like
everything you write, and so ifyou know if some people are
(22:13):
turned off by the politics, Ithink just as many will find a
sense of, readers have alreadytold me they find.
This kind of sense of release inthe fact that someone cat writes
Catharsis.
Yeah, catharsis.
I thank you that someone writesdirectly into it.
This is not an allegory, it'snot, you know, it's, um, it's
writing directly into what manyof us are feeling and facing
(22:34):
right now, and that feels a lotof times like my job, not all,
not every day, but in this book,it certainly felt like what I
was trying to do.
Brett Benner (22:42):
Yeah, and, and, and, and you do it very
successfully.
But I also think that, like wesaid before, because you are not
mentioning, for example, Trump'sname, and it is something that I
think it's, it's more about, itis about a point in time and
like I said, clearly Iextrapolated something and put
my own thoughts on it, and
Jess Walter (23:01):
yeah.
Brett Benner (23:02):
Felt as like before we, when we first started
this, you know, I couldn't helpbut identify with so much of
what Reese was saying, which Idon't know if, again, that
speaks to my age more than mysentiments.
But the combination of all of itI think was, yeah.
And you know, also hisrelationship is kind of a
strange relationship with hisdaughter.
Yeah.
Which is so fascinating.
(23:23):
But you also do it a remarkablejob.
It's interesting'cause I thinkin your mind, in construction
you're thinking, you know,you're making this kind of.
This story has to be slightly,whether it's you're saying
heightened or, I don't rememberthe exact word you used.
Mm-hmm.
To kind of make it compellingand yet reading it, none of it
seemed accelerated orheightened.
Theatrically, I'll say.
(23:44):
'cause there is a theatricalityabout it.
You know, this very much feelslike it could be a movie.
This very much has that kind ofthrough line.
And it's because it's contained,because it has a small core
group of characters.
Um, and you get to know eachother very well.
Two things that I, one of thethings that I love about
reading, and I, and this issomething I've discovered more
(24:05):
as I've gone on and especiallydoing this podcast, is things
that get brought up for me thatI never would've known it, but
first and foremost, yeah,Spokane.
That's the first that I knew solittle about and went onto it
like a deep dive about, aboutit, and.
Also the indigenous communitythat's there.
Oh yeah.
And can you talk a little bitabout that?
(24:26):
Because it does have a, it is amore, it's a very white
population, but it is moreracially diverse than I think
people would, um, would even beaware of in terms of even
Japanese, Korean, you have avery large kind of spread.
Jess Walter (24:41):
Yeah, I think the whole northwest, the whole
Pacific Northwest, you know,that.
I used to have to sort of orientpeople, my New York friends, and
I would say, well, Seattle isManhattan.
Portland is Brooklyn.
Um, Spokane is maybe Queens oron a bad day, Staten Island, you
know, and so, so, so there'sthis sort.
But, but they are predominantlywhite places.
(25:02):
But most of the places that yougo in the Northwest are named
from the people driven fromthem.
You know, Spokane is named forthe Spokane tribe, you know, and
so, and that.
Tribe still lives there, as dothe Colvilles and the Coeur
d'Alene and the Kalispells, and,you know, all reservations
surround Spokane in a way thatmost cities wouldn't understand,
(25:22):
you know?
And so, and, and it's for me, myfamily.
So the, I send Reese Kinnick tothe very house that my family
owned and that we still own.
Wow.
We still, we still own thatcinder block house on the edge
of the Spokane IndianReservation.
And so for me to write storiesset in this place is to
(25:43):
acknowledge the fact thatSeattle is named after Chief
Chief South after you know thatWenatchee, Yakima, all the
cities in my state are prettymuch named for the tribes that
used to live there and stilllive there.
And that's the thing, I think.
People often sort of assignNative Americans to the history
books.
And when you live in a placewhere reservation culture is so
(26:06):
rich, where na um, where urbannative populations are pretty,
are pretty healthy, you, youknow, it's, it's part of your
everyday life.
And so Brian is a character whois Reese's drinking buddy and
friend, a former electrician andAir Force.
Airman in the Air Force, who ishis neighbor, and, and I wanted
(26:27):
Brian both to be sort of, to bereclaiming his, his sense of the
world.
There's a great school inSpokane called the Salish
School, which is teaching theinterior Salish languages in an
immersion style.
And so I.
I, I've taken a couple ofclasses and so, uh, I gave Brian
the, you know, his, he can say afew things in his native
(26:47):
language and that reclamation ofculture is another big part that
I wanted, you know, thecharacters to, to, um, you know,
to, to reflect.
And so growing up here, ShermanAlexi was, has been a good
writer friend of mine for years,Spokane.
Who's also a Spokane and Coeurd'Alene tribe.
And so know, I, I think ofSherman, I think of other
friends that I've had in writingBrian and giving Reese this sort
(27:10):
of sidekick, you know, to go onhis journey with him.
Um, and that, you know, youknow, there's this sort of tour
of the West.
They have to cross borders itfrom Washington into Idaho, from
Washington into Canada to a, anelica festival.
And so.
That, that political question.
I wanted him to, I wanted to notonly see the far right, but
(27:32):
also, you know, the sort ofentertainment left, you know,
the, these music festivals thatpop up in the middle of nowhere.
And so that, that felt like agood balancing place to send
these two people, or to sort ofsee, um, you know, the insanity
on both sides of, uh, of theworld.
You know, and Brian, you also,Brian was a perfect foil for
(27:54):
that.
Brett Benner (27:54):
He's a great character and that music
festival sequence is so funny,and I will say you, another
thing I never thought I wouldknow about and didn't know I
needed to know about was Bing,which I will not say anything
else about that, but I will letthe reader experience that all
to themselves.
Thank God for things like theUrban Dictionary.
Jess Walter (28:12):
Right.
Yeah.
Well, it, I had, I talked to mydaughter and son-in-law who
liked to go to music festivalsand, um, and my son-in-law
actually sent me this guy whogoes and reports on music
festivals.
And so some of the stuff I foundout, I was like, oh, this is
just too rich.
So it was, yeah.
Brett Benner (28:29):
Well, again, it's such a brilliant thing because
you've created, and Reese, it'salmost like he's this, um, you
know, uh, foreigner who's cominginto discovering a new land.
Um.
Now wait back to that, back toyour, back, to your house.
You, do you guys use it?
Do you?
So
Jess Walter (28:46):
we lived there when I was a kid and it, and when we
moved in, it was exactly asdescribed in the novel.
I've changed the directions alittle bit because we, um, we've
had a caretaker there for thelast 20 years and he recently
bought it and, um,
Brett Benner (28:59):
okay.
Jess Walter (28:59):
Part of the novel was me dealing with the fact
that we were fine.
My dad passed away.
He had always dreamed of movingback there.
So my grandfather owned a, aterrible cattle ranch that
didn't do it, barely supported ahandful of cows.
'cause this, this land is sorough and rag and, uh, rugged.
And then my dad.
When I was in third grade,bought a piece right next to
(29:22):
that and there was on the landthis abandoned cinder block
house with no power, no water.
And so as a kid, when we firstmoved there, I remember going to
the creek and getting creekwater and boiling it and
building a fire to heat thehouse.
Very much what Reese kind ofexperiences.
By the time we, we had powerbrought in, we dug a, well, you
know, we did all the things thatyou do, but we lived there for a
(29:45):
few years and then my dad keptthe land and we still ran some
cattle on it for a while.
And in my dad's last years, mybrother and sister and I would
just take him up to the land andwe would just walk around and
pick up sticks and build firesand, you know, so letting that
land go, I'd always sort of, mybrother and sister and I kept it
as this.
As this sort of place we couldgo, you know, if we ever needed
(30:06):
to.
Brett Benner (30:06):
Yeah,
Jess Walter (30:07):
it was, it's funny, by autobiography creeps into my
work in these funny ways and,and as soon as I decided, oh,
I'm just gonna send him to theplace that I always imagined
going, you know, and yeah.
And that was, yeah, that was,you know, it made the place seem
so real to me as I was writingit and, you know, and so when we
sold it, we did the same thingReese did.
(30:28):
We stipulated that there be noclear cutting that it not be
split into land.
We carried the contracts so thatwe could do all those things.
And so at the end of the novel,there's a moment where Reese has
to, has to, and it's about 70acres that we owned up there.
My grandfather owned Wow, almost600, but.
Wow.
There's, there's no irrigationup there.
(30:48):
You can't really, you can grow.
We would grow one cutting ofalfalfa, but most of the land
was these rugged cliff faces andforest.
And so you, you really couldn'tfeed that many cattle,
especially if you only get onecut really good farmland.
You, you can find water and youcan, you know, you can grow two,
three cuttings.
And so, but my brother andsister and I kept seven acres
(31:08):
and we were just up there a weekago and we just like to go stand
there and look around and.
You know, and let it be wild.
Let the trees grow.
And if we can avoid the Turkeyhunters this time of year, then
it's a, it's a wonderful Yeah.
I was gonna ask
Brett Benner (31:21):
what is, what is the wild, what is the wild You
have turkeys.
There's,
Jess Walter (31:25):
when I was a kid, we, when I was a kid, we had a
bear that would come dig up ourgarden all the time, and my dad
would wake us up and we wouldjust peer over and watch this,
this brown bear sit there anddig up, you know, uh, potatoes
and carrots and thingsunderneath them.
And, um, but yeah, we had, I wasa kid.
We, we would.
We never saw cougars, but you'dsee their scat.
We had a Canadian lynx comedown.
(31:47):
Lots of ton of deer, of course.
Moose, um, tur, wild turkeys,you know, it, it, it was, it was
great.
And as described in the novel,much of it's been developed, you
know, a lot of the neighbors,you know, those 500, 600 acre,
Ranches and farms don't reallywork, so they've kind of split
them up.
And there's a lot of peoplelooking to escape the world, you
(32:09):
know, from California who'vebought them.
So now they're five acre piecesinstead of 600.
And our, um, our 70 acre, ranchis, um, I.
The, the guy who owns it is a,works for a logging company and
he drives a truck and then has,you know, farms a little bit,
has cattle there.
And, uh, I don't know what we'lldo with our seven acres.
(32:30):
We'll just probably walk out andstand on it until, uh,
Brett Benner (32:35):
just savor it.
Jess Walter (32:35):
Savor it, yeah.
Yeah.
Leave it for our kids.
But it, but it's totally wild.
A creek runs through it.
You know, it's, there are justso few of those places that are,
that don't have the fingerprintof people on them.
Brett Benner (32:47):
Yeah.
No, you're absolutely.
'cause yeah, we love to develop.
I told you, I think when I firstcontacted you, I'm, we're moving
in like two months to BainbridgeIsland.
Yeah.
I remember just walking throughit, these massive trees and
these ferns that came up chestheight, you know what I mean?
Beautiful.
That.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And again, sometimes I don'tknow, again, if it's age that
(33:09):
I'm so of suddenly like I'm, youknow, it's, you know, you, yeah.
The Walden esque part of it, youknow?
Yes.
It's all pretty incredible.
Jess Walter (33:16):
But I, but I think that idea of being the steward
of the place, and I wish mygrandfather were, yeah.
But the first thing my brotherand I did when we got the land
back is pull out all of thegarbage and tractors and trucks
and everything that mygrandfather just drove into the
woods and drove into the creekbed.
You know, because that was howyou treated your land when he
(33:36):
was coming up and my.
You know, we, we, we had adepartment of natural resources
person tell me, do you guysvacuum your land?
It's so clean.
You know, we just, we clean allthe garbage out.
When trees fall, we, we cut'emup and make flash piles, you
know, and so, yeah.
Yeah, so I, I do think there's,you know, there's something
(33:57):
about being, if you can afford apiece of land, there's something
about being the steward of itand hopefully retaining, you
know, allowing wildlife to liveon it, retaining its natural
state, you know, protecting itswater.
I mean, if you can do that forsix acres, you know, then that,
that's your little piece of hoperight there.
Brett Benner (34:15):
Yeah.
No, you're a hundred percentright.
Uh, before we go I did, I didhave to ask you.
I know you're a big fan of,short stories.
Yeah.
Yes.
Reading them as well as writingthem.
And so I'm so curious if you hada collection or one particular
that you loved.
Jess Walter (34:33):
I.
Lately I've been loving, likeeveryone, Claire Keegan, the
Irish writer, her books are justa marvel.
I, I mean, I go back to theshort story writers who just
inspired me.
I, I just read Dublin again,which I always find my way back
to the Dead, I think is aperfect story.
You know, and, uh, but yeah,there are, boy, there are just
(34:54):
no shortage that I, I have a, Ihave a whole shelf back there.
Let me turn and see you.
Which one jumps out at me?
And Stuart Beck is a writer I goback to.
I taught, uh, I, I was luckyenough to get to teach at the
Iowa Writers Workshop and the.
And a story of his pet milk thatI taught.
Incredibly short story, but it,it teaches you so much about
(35:15):
time and movement and, I stillhear from students who, who say
that story to them.
It was almost like they're in,it's, it's almost as if you can
take.
Literature and put it under amicroscope'cause it's such a
small story and you can see thethings that you might not be
able to see in a novel.
It's like a one celled organismthat teaches you about all of
(35:37):
life.
And sometimes you'll find ashort story that does that.
And so, I'll throw out StewartStewart Beck since his was the
book that I looked back.
I love that.
Brett Benner (35:46):
No, that's, that's awesome.
Well, the book is fantastic.
What I do love is, we didn'tgive too much away because I do
feel like it's something thatneeds to be experienced.
Yeah.
And so I really look at, look atall those
Jess Walter (35:56):
little red tabs in there.
Brett Benner (35:58):
I, I did, I had a lot of tabs.
I was, I was, I appreciate that.
I was, I was writing quotes downand again, things that I
completely identified with andemphatically, you know, nodding
my head saying Yes, Reese, yes.
Jess Walter (36:12):
Well, let's let, let's, let's hope other readers
identify with him as just asmuch.
Brett Benner (36:16):
Yeah, I, I would say for anyone who's had that
impulse to throw their phone outthe window and just drive off
into the great unknown, this isabsolutely the book for you now,
but by independent, if you canjust, Walter to spend such a
pleasure, like I said before,I'm such a fan of your work.
I'm Oh, thanks.
I'm so excited for this and, uh,good luck with it all.
Jess Walter (36:34):
Thank you, Brett was great fun.
Brett Benner (36:36):
Thank you again, Jess, and if you like this
conversation or otherconversations you've heard on
Behind the Stack, pleaseconsider giving it a five star
review on your podcast platformof choice.
It's really helpful to raiseawareness for other people to
help find the podcast so I cancontinue to keep doing this.
I will be back later this weekin my double feature June with
(36:59):
Chris Chibnall, who is theauthor of Death at the White
Heart.
See you then.
Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack.
I hope you had a great weekendwherever you are.
I actually.
Just got back a little bit agofrom one of the no kings
protests here in Los Angeles,which was really fantastic.
I went to the West Hollywood oneand amazing crowd, amazing show
(00:23):
of people.
Dustin Lance Black spoke and hewas just fantastic, but it
really gave a needed boost ofsolidarity and.
Just community, which was sofantastic.
So, before we get into ourauthor chat today, I wanted to
just to talk about a few otherbooks that were coming out
(00:44):
today.
The first is by Nikki Erlichcalled The Poppy Fields.
Nikki Erlich wrote the book, theMeasure, which was a bestseller
a few years ago.
This one says, A high concept,speculative novel about
heartache, hope, and humanresilience.
The poppy fields explores thepath of grief and healing, a
journey at once profoundlyuniversal and unique to every
person posing the questions.
(01:04):
How do we heal in the wake ofgreat loss and how?
Far are we willing to go inorder to be healed?
Then I'm reading this one rightnow and it is so good, but
definitely triggering, which isJoyce Carol LO's New book Fox, A
spell binding novel of literaryand psychological suspense about
(01:26):
the dark secrets at surfaceafter the shocking disappearance
of a charismatic mecurialteacher at an elite.
Boarding school by the legendaryauthor who's surely on any
shortlist of America's greatestliving writers.
It is really well done.
I think this is the first timethat Joyce Carol oes is really
tackling something like this,which is really kind of a
(01:46):
mystery thriller.
But, it's fantastic so far.
Then.
Controversial author James Fray,his new book Next to Heaven
comes out today, which sounds alittle soapy and fun.
I think there's almost morepublicity about James Fray than
there is the book itselfcomments that he made about
using AI to write his books, notto mention his past history with
(02:10):
Oprah Winfrey for hisautobiography that he wrote and
apparently made up large partsof, but, this is about a group
of people, very wealthy peoplein New Bethlehem, Connecticut,
and a party that is thrown andbefore the night is over,
someone is going to be murdered.
There'll be multiple betrayalsand, Events that will shatter
(02:30):
new Bethlehem's, carefullyconstructed facade.
I have to be honest, it stillsounds kind of fun regardless of
all the scandal surrounding him.
Jason Green has his new bookcame out today, UN World, from
the author of Once More, we SawStars Comes a gripping novel
about.
Four intertwined lives thatcollide in the wake of a
mysterious tragedy set in a nearfuture world where the
boundaries between human and AIblur the story, challenges our
(02:53):
understanding and consciousnessof humanity.
So those are just some of thebooks that are out today.
Now, onto today's author, I wasreally thrilled to sit down with
author Jess Walter for his newbook.
So Far Gone, I've been a big fanof Jess Walter's work for a long
time, so this was absolutely atreat for me and he's just the
(03:15):
nicest guy.
So, a little bit about Jess.
He's the author of 10 books mostrecently, the Story Collection,
the Angel of Rome and thebestselling novels, the Code
Millions and Beautiful Ruins,the Zero finalist for the
(03:36):
National Book Award, and CitizenVance, winner of the Edgar
Award.
His work has been published inthe 34 languages and his short
fiction has won O Henry andPushcart Prizes and appeared
three times in Best Americanshort stories.
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
(03:59):
I'm, I'm Brett.
It's, it's, yeah.
It's really great to meet you.
Jess Walter (04:02):
Nice to meet you Brett.
Brett Benner (04:03):
I'm such a fan of your work, so I was, thanks.
I was really, uh, tickled thatyou were coming on today.
Jess Walter (04:07):
Thanks Brett.
It's great to be here.
Brett Benner (04:09):
You've had, you know, a myriad of novels, seven
novels, two collections of shortstories, a nonfiction book.
You were the recipient of theeighth Ground poll award.
You were the finalist for theNational Book Award in 2006.
I was just looking yesterday onseven of your books have
received, one of those covetedstars on Kirkus for whatever
that's worth.
I know, but, but people seem tolike those things.
(04:30):
You've lived in Spokane yourwhole life, right?
Jess Walter (04:33):
I have, I mean, I guess, you know, I did go 15
miles away for college.
So, but yeah, and I, it's justbecome this great home base.
I, I was one of those kids whowanted to leave from the time I
was about seven, and then familyresponsibilities kind of kept me
here and, and then at thismoment I realized I was from
this place.
(04:53):
And so I venture out quite abit, but it's, it's my home.
Brett Benner (04:57):
something else that I, that I read about you is
that you, and I'm sure this iswhat the many writers have this
as well, that you're writingmultiple things at once.
How do you balance that and howalso does that, is it one voice
begins to become more pertinentor more nagging to you that that
kind of takes the lead?
Or how do you balance that?
And when do you write?
Are you a morning person or?
I am a morning person.
Jess Walter (05:18):
I was, I got out here, it's, uh, 8:00 AM uh.
In, uh, Spokane and I got outhere at five and, um, wrote for
a couple of hours.
I'm working on a short story.
I just went to hear this experttalk about ai, a financial
expert talking about all howmuch money is gonna be made in,
in ai.
And so I was, I've been workingon this short story about a guy
(05:38):
like him who gives apresentation.
So, um, and that's often the wayI'll work.
I have a novel that I'm workingon, but, I became so terrified
of writer's block when I firstleft my newspaper job, and I was
just deathly afraid someone wasgonna come drag me out of my
comfy office here.
And although I didn't have thisoffice then and make me go back
(05:59):
to my newspaper desk, and sowhen something would, when the
writing on a project would.
Become stuck or or I couldn'tfind my way around something.
I got into this habit of juststarting something else, and at
the time it seemed like a fatalflaw that I wouldn't ever finish
anything.
And so I'm writing this novelabout.
Italy and Hollywood in the 1960sand I just keep getting stuck in
(06:24):
it and dropping it and writingsomething else and, and it
wasn't until I finishedBeautiful Ruins after working
out for 15 years off and on likethat, and having other projects
come bump in.
That I realized how, maybe it'skind of singular that I work
this way, but just how effectiveit was because that novel got
better every time I came back toit.
And every time I allowed myselfto work on something else, I
(06:47):
became a different, betterwriter with more experiences.
And so now I just don't fightit.
I write.
Something until I sort of hit awall.
And that wall can last two orthree days, but then I try to
switch to something else and,and then when I come back to
that thing that I was stuck on,I, I always find that I see it
with a kind of clarity that Ididn't before.
(07:07):
And that's just sort of the wayI've always worked.
And it also allows me to veeroff into different forms,
different genres, differentvoices.
It's almost like being an actorand.
Just looking through the offersand seeing which jobs you can
take, it's like, oh, I wannaplay this role.
I wanna play that role.
You know?
And that for me is kind ofthrilling.
(07:28):
I mean, maybe I'm a characteractor of novelists.
Brett Benner (07:31):
Now, wait, do you, when you go back to something.
Are you a revisionistimmediately or did you Oh yeah.
Just moving forward and then goback.
Jess Walter (07:38):
I go back to page one and it's interesting how,
while I'm away, an idea, avision of the thing starts to
sort of crystallize and Irealize what it is I love about
that piece and
Brett Benner (07:49):
Mm.
Jess Walter (07:50):
And then.
And it isn't necessarily that Iknow what I don't like, but I
know what I feel like needs tobe retained in the revision.
When I went back to the Coldmillions novel, you know, set in
the early words, I realized I'vegot too many speeches in here.
What I really love is this sortof steinbeckian language and
playing with it in that way.
(08:10):
And so what brings me back tothe book is sort of what I
concentrate on, but now I goback to, it's funny, the first
sentence of beautiful ruins ca,a dying actress arrived in his.
Arrived in his village, the onlyway one could come directly in a
boat that motored into the coveand bumped against the rock
jetty.
That sentence had 4,000different iterations.
The actress arrived in hisvillage.
(08:31):
You know, the actress came tohis village.
His village was, the actress wasdying, period.
You know Oh, right.
In a Hemingway style.
And every time I go back I wouldkind of rework those sentences
and find my way back into it.
And, and I do that when I startwriting every day.
I.
Go back a page or two and readwhat I've done to sort of
immerse myself back in thatvoice and time and place.
(08:52):
And it's probably the one habitthat I find myself forgetting
and having to write, remindmyself is if I read it out loud
and hear it, then it feels somuch, then I can find my way
back into it.
Brett Benner (09:04):
Interesting.
I love all that stuff you saidin terms of equating it to even
being an actor.
And it made me wonder, is thereone, is there one.
Character that you've writtenthat you personally identify
with the most?
Jess Walter (09:15):
Wow, that's so interesting.
I have found myself writinginordinately about actors in,
um, in my last story collection,the Angel of Rome, the main
story, the Angel of Rome, isabout a guy who bumps into an
actor and that kind of changeshis life.
There's a story in there calledFamous Actor, beautiful Ruins,
of course has actors in, so I, Ido quickly found myself
connected to that, to that styleof art.
(09:37):
Again, being able to play allthese different.
Parts and throw yourself, throwyourself into them.
But I think the character thatalways I related to the most was
Pasquale, who spends his wholelife in this small town, in
Italy.
And I have absolutely nothingelse in common with him except
that we both sort of dreamed ofa larger world and then did our
(09:57):
best to bring the larger worldto the place where we lived.
He tries to build this massiveresort, and it's all in his
mind.
I'm gonna build a tennis courton a cliff, and the Americans
are gonna come and for me.
Um, taking what's in my mind andthen bringing it out to the
world, often said in stories inSpokane or around Spokane was a
(10:17):
way to, you know, to have thatlarger world while staying here
and taking care of, you know, mykids and my mom who was dying
and my dad who had Alzheimer'sand, you know, all these sort of
responsibilities that piled up,that, you know, caused me to, in
a, in a, uh, Frank Capra, it's awonderful life way, sort of stay
in my hometown and make the bestof it.
(10:38):
All those things, um, you know,enriched my life in this way
that now I wouldn't trade asecond of them.
But I, I did have to find a wayto bring the world to the place
where I lived.
Brett Benner (10:50):
I love that.
It also made me think of that,you know, that I think it was
John Lennon life was whathappens when you're busy making
other plans.
Yeah.
And uh.
So for our viewers, listeners,do you have a kind of elevator
pitch since we're talking to,you know, actors?
Yeah.
For, uh, for the book?
Jess Walter (11:09):
Yeah.
Maybe an escalator pitch.
Okay.
Brett Benner (11:11):
Yeah.
Jess Walter (11:11):
That's great.
Slow sort of rise.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, the novel reallycame from this i, this sensation
I had starting about two yearsago that I wanted to just close
myself off from the news fromthe world.
I had a sense we were driftinginto Trump.
Part two and, and more than evenpolitics or party or anything
like that, it was just the, theway in which truth had been
(11:33):
undermined and we could notagree on a common reality.
So the idea of throwing yourcell phone out a window and just
disappearing was for me, whatdrove the novel.
And so that's what the novel'sabout.
It's a former environmentalreporter named Reese Kinnick who
just decides one day he is hadenough of his conspiracy
theorist son-in-law and he.
Punches him in the face, throwshis phone out the window and
(11:55):
retreats to a piece of familyland with, an abandoned, cinder
block house in it.
And, and he stays there forseven years.
And when the novel starts, twokids are on his porch and he
comes out and asks if they'reselling magazines or chocolate
bars and they inform him thatthere is grandchildren and.
From that moment, Reese Kinnickhas to come out of his life and
(12:15):
confront the world that has notgotten any saner since he's been
gone and try to track down hisgrandchildren and, and his
daughter who's gone missing.
Brett Benner (12:26):
I wanna start just simply with the title.
Yeah.
Because it's so loaded in somany ways.
It is.
Yeah.
There, you know, there's.
From Reese, from the country.
Yeah.
From, escaping from society.
All of it.
Yeah.
It's just, it's, it's such aperfect title.
There's no question there.
It's just an observation.
Jess Walter (12:46):
Yeah.
Thank you.
It was, it's as always, I hadthree, two or three titles
battling for, for the, for thetop of the book, and it was late
in the book, and I was writingabout.
One of the characters who hasdementia, and they remarked that
he's so far gone that there'snot much left.
And I just thought that was mysubconscious telling me that
that is what the book's about.
It's, and it's a, it is both aquestion like who, who's
(13:09):
reachable still.
Um, and this happens infamilies.
I mean, I don't think we've evercome to a place where politics
has fissure families.
Since the 1960s and in the 1960sit was establishment parents and
their anti-establishmentchildren.
And now it's something I think,deeper and darker.
And so you know who, you know,which of your family that, that
(13:32):
heads off in these directions istoo far gone, you know?
And is Kinnick too far gone?
Is he so far gone in his, inhis, um, denial of the world
that he can't come back to it?
So it did feel to me exactlylike the title I was looking at.
Brett Benner (13:45):
Yeah, I was.
I was going back, and you cancorrect me if I'm wrong on this,
but I, I woke up this morning, Iwas thinking about it and
thought, you never really make areference, or there's not really
a direct reference bymentioning, say, Trump by name,
which I think is so interestingbecause all of a sudden I
realized when I was thinkingabout the, this morning, I
thought.
Okay.
Well that's what I've put on it.
That's immediately, yeah.
(14:06):
I mean, you're certainly talkingabout, but you're talking about,
you know, white militias andyou're talking about
nationalism, but without puttingthat particular person to it,
it's just of the time period.
But of course, I just think it'sfascinating the way, you know,
someone's mind immediatelyconnects and it's like, oh,
they're Trumpers, they'reTrumpers.
(14:27):
Right, just because of where weare right now.
Yeah.
And even what an American flaghas come to represent for so
many of us on either side,whether right, wherever you are.
But was that intentional on yourpart?
Did you?
Very much, yeah.
Jess Walter (14:40):
I mean, I, it, it, it's an interesting balance.
I, because I come from anewspaper background, I'm often
drawn to writing about what'shappening now, and I, uh, I
wrote a novel called TheFinancial Lives of the Poets
about the 2008 financial crisis.
I wrote a novel about.
Our reaction to terrorism afternine 11.
And so I really am drawn, butyou also, I, I have a little
(15:04):
note that I wrote myself yearsago.
Uh, a novel is a terrible way tobreak news because, because by
the time it comes out, peopleknow this is the world we live
in, and so it has to do morethan that.
And so to make it universal, I Iwanted to give Reese specific
things.
He was.
Angry about it, but one thingthat never goes away is the, the
(15:25):
battle between reality and thestories we tell ourselves to
make ourselves or to justify ourbehavior.
Mm-hmm.
One of my favorite books is ofall time, and I go back to it,
is Resistance, rebellion andDeath by Albert Camus, who's
writing about World War II andthe Algerian situation and, um,
these amazing essays.
He writes with a German friendand he tells the German friend
(15:48):
are.
You are purposefully ignoringreality, you know, to to push
forward the things you believe.
And to me that's a much deeper,larger thing than which party
wins, which candidate wins.
You know, Reese is definitelyagainst the right word tilt of
the country, but it's morebecause of its effects.
It's not, again, which partywins.
(16:09):
And to me that was important.
It was important to make italmost a philosophical argument
and not one that is battled outon the op-ed pages.
Brett Benner (16:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, it's interesting becausewe're watching in the last year
or so, a lot of books that havestarted to come out are
reflective of the COVID era.
Mm-hmm.
The COVID crisis, the lockdown,all those kind of things.
Um, and yet it's interesting tohear you say that you wrote this
so fairly, it seems fairly quickfor you in terms of two years,
right.
Jess Walter (16:38):
Yeah, if this was a faster novel in part because it
just felt so immediate and alsothe structure of it.
I mean, my other novelsbeautiful Ruin the last two
novels, beautiful ruins in thecold.
Millions have casts of hundredsnow.
There's so many characters.
Yeah.
Different voices.
They take place over years andyears.
50 years for beautiful ruins.
(16:59):
Um, and this one takes place ina few days.
I had just come off a CharlesPortis kick and Charles Port
Portis is one of my favoritewriters.
And you know, I.
Whether it's true Grit orNorwood or Dog of the South, he
tends to set up a situation andthen there's a road trip and I,
and I really wanted to givemyself that challenge.
I wanted to write a Portis likenovel.
(17:21):
And so it is, it was a coupleyears and it was, and the other
thing Portis does is he neverallows the seriousness of the
situation to get in the way ofhis.
Humorous philosophy.
He sees the world the way in acomic way, not comic like a
standup comic, but in a way inwhich our folly reveals itself
(17:42):
and reveals itself in thecharacters.
And that's also the way I seethe world.
And so it was very muchintentional.
See how quickly can I turn thismoment that we're in into
something that I think is fastand funny, but has this
seriousness at the, at the heartof it that we are all dealing
with.
Brett Benner (17:59):
How do you, Jess?
Grapple with, well, I'll just,because this is a thing that
comes up for Reese, but kind ofprotecting yourself from the
onslaught of all the bullshit.
Jess Walter (18:13):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (18:14):
In terms of this current.
Jess Walter (18:15):
Yeah, that, um, there was a, a cartoon I saw and
it was this, um, freeway and itsaid, uh, can't get enough.
And then, and then there wasthis OnRamp can't take anymore.
And I feel like we're all thatway with the news.
We're like, ah.
And then all of a sudden youjust, you know, everyone talks
about, I went on a media diet, Iwent on media fast, I quit
(18:38):
Twitter, I quit this, you know,and that, and just think of
that, that we are so inundatedand.
Depressed and frustrated that wehave to turn off, you know, the,
we have to not pay attention.
And feeling that urge in myselfand thinking that urge was
probably not very healthy.
That's exactly why I wrote thenovel, was I wanna see if I
(19:00):
turned away from all of this, ifI allowed cynicism to cause me
to no longer care about theplight of a student who protests
and then gets.
Sent out of the country, if Ijust decide to tune out what,
what's the effect of that?
And often as you do in fiction,you make the, the situation much
more intense and put more atstake.
(19:21):
But you know, my first book wasabout Ruby Ridge.
Shootout in North Idahoinvolving, um, a white
separatist family in the FBI.
And so in my way in my world,I've been dealing with the, the
push pull of this extremism andthe response to it and the
(19:42):
bending of reality and people.
Wanting to see whatever storythey see in these, in, in these
events since 1992.
And, um, and so in some waysthis is not new.
This is an eternal battle thatwe fight and, and we have to
come down on the side of truthand justice as, as cliched and
(20:03):
superman and boring as itsounds.
We have to keep, you know,that's what the battle is.
It's not a battle betweenparties or elephants and donkeys
or, you know.
Brett Benner (20:13):
Right.
Jess Walter (20:14):
Eagles and pickup trucks.
It's, it's, it's between realityand non-reality.
And, um, and so, you know, Ithink that's how I deal with it
is by, it doesn't mean I have todonate to a cause or March or
anything like that, but I haveto stand on the side of justice
and truth, and I think that'swhat the characters have to
find.
Brett Benner (20:35):
And I couldn't help but think of this too, it
in terms of, I'm so interestedto see now when this goes out
into the mass world, people'sreactions to it.
Because, you know, I know likethere's plenty of authors,
Stephen King, Katherine Newman,anybody who writes anything that
has any kind of, you know, whichcould be perceived as a
political bent to it could get,you know, swathed, you know,
(20:56):
painted with a, a brush.
And so I'm sure you're aware ofthat or aware that could happen.
I don't even know what I'mtrying to ask really.
I'm just, yeah.
It's, I, I, I
Jess Walter (21:09):
mean, of course it's a concern and some people
will say, I get enough of thisin the news.
I don't need to read about thisRight on my off time.
And there are people who look tobooks for escape and this, you
know, I think, um, the humorand, and the, uh, and the
suspense and the kind of theaction in it all for a different
kind of escape.
But I also feel like.
(21:29):
Books have many differentpurposes, and one of them is to
reflect the as.
Again, to go back to my guy,Camus, he called it the wager of
your generation.
And I think this is the wager ofour generation.
Are we gonna turn away?
Are we gonna pay attention?
And you know, I having writtennovels that were very timely,
like the financial lives of thepoets, I know that they have a
(21:51):
moment when they arrive.
And then they keep living andthey, and it's amazing how
prescient many books can beyears after they come out.
You know, we read them now andwe say, this person speaking to
the world we're in now.
And so I think you just try tostrike that balance.
I learned long ago that noteveryone is gonna like
everything you write, and so ifyou know if some people are
(22:13):
turned off by the politics, Ithink just as many will find a
sense of, readers have alreadytold me they find.
This kind of sense of release inthe fact that someone cat writes
Catharsis.
Yeah, catharsis.
I thank you that someone writesdirectly into it.
This is not an allegory, it'snot, you know, it's, um, it's
writing directly into what manyof us are feeling and facing
(22:34):
right now, and that feels a lotof times like my job, not all,
not every day, but in this book,it certainly felt like what I
was trying to do.
Brett Benner (22:42):
Yeah, and, and, and, and you do it very
successfully.
But I also think that, like wesaid before, because you are not
mentioning, for example, Trump'sname, and it is something that I
think it's, it's more about, itis about a point in time and
like I said, clearly Iextrapolated something and put
my own thoughts on it, and
Jess Walter (23:01):
yeah.
Brett Benner (23:02):
Felt as like before we, when we first started
this, you know, I couldn't helpbut identify with so much of
what Reese was saying, which Idon't know if, again, that
speaks to my age more than mysentiments.
But the combination of all of itI think was, yeah.
And you know, also hisrelationship is kind of a
strange relationship with hisdaughter.
Yeah.
Which is so fascinating.
(23:23):
But you also do it a remarkablejob.
It's interesting'cause I thinkin your mind, in construction
you're thinking, you know,you're making this kind of.
This story has to be slightly,whether it's you're saying
heightened or, I don't rememberthe exact word you used.
Mm-hmm.
To kind of make it compellingand yet reading it, none of it
seemed accelerated orheightened.
Theatrically, I'll say.
(23:44):
'cause there is a theatricalityabout it.
You know, this very much feelslike it could be a movie.
This very much has that kind ofthrough line.
And it's because it's contained,because it has a small core
group of characters.
Um, and you get to know eachother very well.
Two things that I, one of thethings that I love about
reading, and I, and this issomething I've discovered more
(24:05):
as I've gone on and especiallydoing this podcast, is things
that get brought up for me thatI never would've known it, but
first and foremost, yeah,Spokane.
That's the first that I knew solittle about and went onto it
like a deep dive about, aboutit, and.
Also the indigenous communitythat's there.
Oh yeah.
And can you talk a little bitabout that?
(24:26):
Because it does have a, it is amore, it's a very white
population, but it is moreracially diverse than I think
people would, um, would even beaware of in terms of even
Japanese, Korean, you have avery large kind of spread.
Jess Walter (24:41):
Yeah, I think the whole northwest, the whole
Pacific Northwest, you know,that.
I used to have to sort of orientpeople, my New York friends, and
I would say, well, Seattle isManhattan.
Portland is Brooklyn.
Um, Spokane is maybe Queens oron a bad day, Staten Island, you
know, and so, so, so there'sthis sort.
But, but they are predominantlywhite places.
(25:02):
But most of the places that yougo in the Northwest are named
from the people driven fromthem.
You know, Spokane is named forthe Spokane tribe, you know, and
so, and that.
Tribe still lives there, as dothe Colvilles and the Coeur
d'Alene and the Kalispells, and,you know, all reservations
surround Spokane in a way thatmost cities wouldn't understand,
(25:22):
you know?
And so, and, and it's for me, myfamily.
So the, I send Reese Kinnick tothe very house that my family
owned and that we still own.
Wow.
We still, we still own thatcinder block house on the edge
of the Spokane IndianReservation.
And so for me to write storiesset in this place is to
(25:43):
acknowledge the fact thatSeattle is named after Chief
Chief South after you know thatWenatchee, Yakima, all the
cities in my state are prettymuch named for the tribes that
used to live there and stilllive there.
And that's the thing, I think.
People often sort of assignNative Americans to the history
books.
And when you live in a placewhere reservation culture is so
(26:06):
rich, where na um, where urbannative populations are pretty,
are pretty healthy, you, youknow, it's, it's part of your
everyday life.
And so Brian is a character whois Reese's drinking buddy and
friend, a former electrician andAir Force.
Airman in the Air Force, who ishis neighbor, and, and I wanted
(26:27):
Brian both to be sort of, to bereclaiming his, his sense of the
world.
There's a great school inSpokane called the Salish
School, which is teaching theinterior Salish languages in an
immersion style.
And so I.
I, I've taken a couple ofclasses and so, uh, I gave Brian
the, you know, his, he can say afew things in his native
(26:47):
language and that reclamation ofculture is another big part that
I wanted, you know, thecharacters to, to, um, you know,
to, to reflect.
And so growing up here, ShermanAlexi was, has been a good
writer friend of mine for years,Spokane.
Who's also a Spokane and Coeurd'Alene tribe.
And so know, I, I think ofSherman, I think of other
friends that I've had in writingBrian and giving Reese this sort
(27:10):
of sidekick, you know, to go onhis journey with him.
Um, and that, you know, youknow, there's this sort of tour
of the West.
They have to cross borders itfrom Washington into Idaho, from
Washington into Canada to a, anelica festival.
And so.
That, that political question.
I wanted him to, I wanted to notonly see the far right, but
(27:32):
also, you know, the sort ofentertainment left, you know,
the, these music festivals thatpop up in the middle of nowhere.
And so that, that felt like agood balancing place to send
these two people, or to sort ofsee, um, you know, the insanity
on both sides of, uh, of theworld.
You know, and Brian, you also,Brian was a perfect foil for
(27:54):
that.
Brett Benner (27:54):
He's a great character and that music
festival sequence is so funny,and I will say you, another
thing I never thought I wouldknow about and didn't know I
needed to know about was Bing,which I will not say anything
else about that, but I will letthe reader experience that all
to themselves.
Thank God for things like theUrban Dictionary.
Jess Walter (28:12):
Right.
Yeah.
Well, it, I had, I talked to mydaughter and son-in-law who
liked to go to music festivalsand, um, and my son-in-law
actually sent me this guy whogoes and reports on music
festivals.
And so some of the stuff I foundout, I was like, oh, this is
just too rich.
So it was, yeah.
Brett Benner (28:29):
Well, again, it's such a brilliant thing because
you've created, and Reese, it'salmost like he's this, um, you
know, uh, foreigner who's cominginto discovering a new land.
Um.
Now wait back to that, back toyour, back, to your house.
You, do you guys use it?
Do you?
So
Jess Walter (28:46):
we lived there when I was a kid and it, and when we
moved in, it was exactly asdescribed in the novel.
I've changed the directions alittle bit because we, um, we've
had a caretaker there for thelast 20 years and he recently
bought it and, um,
Brett Benner (28:59):
okay.
Jess Walter (28:59):
Part of the novel was me dealing with the fact
that we were fine.
My dad passed away.
He had always dreamed of movingback there.
So my grandfather owned a, aterrible cattle ranch that
didn't do it, barely supported ahandful of cows.
'cause this, this land is sorough and rag and, uh, rugged.
And then my dad.
When I was in third grade,bought a piece right next to
(29:22):
that and there was on the landthis abandoned cinder block
house with no power, no water.
And so as a kid, when we firstmoved there, I remember going to
the creek and getting creekwater and boiling it and
building a fire to heat thehouse.
Very much what Reese kind ofexperiences.
By the time we, we had powerbrought in, we dug a, well, you
know, we did all the things thatyou do, but we lived there for a
(29:45):
few years and then my dad keptthe land and we still ran some
cattle on it for a while.
And in my dad's last years, mybrother and sister and I would
just take him up to the land andwe would just walk around and
pick up sticks and build firesand, you know, so letting that
land go, I'd always sort of, mybrother and sister and I kept it
as this.
As this sort of place we couldgo, you know, if we ever needed
(30:06):
to.
Brett Benner (30:06):
Yeah,
Jess Walter (30:07):
it was, it's funny, by autobiography creeps into my
work in these funny ways and,and as soon as I decided, oh,
I'm just gonna send him to theplace that I always imagined
going, you know, and yeah.
And that was, yeah, that was,you know, it made the place seem
so real to me as I was writingit and, you know, and so when we
sold it, we did the same thingReese did.
(30:28):
We stipulated that there be noclear cutting that it not be
split into land.
We carried the contracts so thatwe could do all those things.
And so at the end of the novel,there's a moment where Reese has
to, has to, and it's about 70acres that we owned up there.
My grandfather owned Wow, almost600, but.
Wow.
There's, there's no irrigationup there.
(30:48):
You can't really, you can grow.
We would grow one cutting ofalfalfa, but most of the land
was these rugged cliff faces andforest.
And so you, you really couldn'tfeed that many cattle,
especially if you only get onecut really good farmland.
You, you can find water and youcan, you know, you can grow two,
three cuttings.
And so, but my brother andsister and I kept seven acres
(31:08):
and we were just up there a weekago and we just like to go stand
there and look around and.
You know, and let it be wild.
Let the trees grow.
And if we can avoid the Turkeyhunters this time of year, then
it's a, it's a wonderful Yeah.
I was gonna ask
Brett Benner (31:21):
what is, what is the wild, what is the wild You
have turkeys.
There's,
Jess Walter (31:25):
when I was a kid, we, when I was a kid, we had a
bear that would come dig up ourgarden all the time, and my dad
would wake us up and we wouldjust peer over and watch this,
this brown bear sit there anddig up, you know, uh, potatoes
and carrots and thingsunderneath them.
And, um, but yeah, we had, I wasa kid.
We, we would.
We never saw cougars, but you'dsee their scat.
We had a Canadian lynx comedown.
(31:47):
Lots of ton of deer, of course.
Moose, um, tur, wild turkeys,you know, it, it, it was, it was
great.
And as described in the novel,much of it's been developed, you
know, a lot of the neighbors,you know, those 500, 600 acre,
Ranches and farms don't reallywork, so they've kind of split
them up.
And there's a lot of peoplelooking to escape the world, you
(32:09):
know, from California who'vebought them.
So now they're five acre piecesinstead of 600.
And our, um, our 70 acre, ranchis, um, I.
The, the guy who owns it is a,works for a logging company and
he drives a truck and then has,you know, farms a little bit,
has cattle there.
And, uh, I don't know what we'lldo with our seven acres.
(32:30):
We'll just probably walk out andstand on it until, uh,
Brett Benner (32:35):
just savor it.
Jess Walter (32:35):
Savor it, yeah.
Yeah.
Leave it for our kids.
But it, but it's totally wild.
A creek runs through it.
You know, it's, there are justso few of those places that are,
that don't have the fingerprintof people on them.
Brett Benner (32:47):
Yeah.
No, you're absolutely.
'cause yeah, we love to develop.
I told you, I think when I firstcontacted you, I'm, we're moving
in like two months to BainbridgeIsland.
Yeah.
I remember just walking throughit, these massive trees and
these ferns that came up chestheight, you know what I mean?
Beautiful.
That.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And again, sometimes I don'tknow, again, if it's age that
(33:09):
I'm so of suddenly like I'm, youknow, it's, you know, you, yeah.
The Walden esque part of it, youknow?
Yes.
It's all pretty incredible.
Jess Walter (33:16):
But I, but I think that idea of being the steward
of the place, and I wish mygrandfather were, yeah.
But the first thing my brotherand I did when we got the land
back is pull out all of thegarbage and tractors and trucks
and everything that mygrandfather just drove into the
woods and drove into the creekbed.
You know, because that was howyou treated your land when he
(33:36):
was coming up and my.
You know, we, we, we had adepartment of natural resources
person tell me, do you guysvacuum your land?
It's so clean.
You know, we just, we clean allthe garbage out.
When trees fall, we, we cut'emup and make flash piles, you
know, and so, yeah.
Yeah, so I, I do think there's,you know, there's something
(33:57):
about being, if you can afford apiece of land, there's something
about being the steward of itand hopefully retaining, you
know, allowing wildlife to liveon it, retaining its natural
state, you know, protecting itswater.
I mean, if you can do that forsix acres, you know, then that,
that's your little piece of hoperight there.
Brett Benner (34:15):
Yeah.
No, you're a hundred percentright.
Uh, before we go I did, I didhave to ask you.
I know you're a big fan of,short stories.
Yeah.
Yes.
Reading them as well as writingthem.
And so I'm so curious if you hada collection or one particular
that you loved.
Jess Walter (34:33):
I.
Lately I've been loving, likeeveryone, Claire Keegan, the
Irish writer, her books are justa marvel.
I, I mean, I go back to theshort story writers who just
inspired me.
I, I just read Dublin again,which I always find my way back
to the Dead, I think is aperfect story.
You know, and, uh, but yeah,there are, boy, there are just
(34:54):
no shortage that I, I have a, Ihave a whole shelf back there.
Let me turn and see you.
Which one jumps out at me?
And Stuart Beck is a writer I goback to.
I taught, uh, I, I was luckyenough to get to teach at the
Iowa Writers Workshop and the.
And a story of his pet milk thatI taught.
Incredibly short story, but it,it teaches you so much about
(35:15):
time and movement and, I stillhear from students who, who say
that story to them.
It was almost like they're in,it's, it's almost as if you can
take.
Literature and put it under amicroscope'cause it's such a
small story and you can see thethings that you might not be
able to see in a novel.
It's like a one celled organismthat teaches you about all of
(35:37):
life.
And sometimes you'll find ashort story that does that.
And so, I'll throw out StewartStewart Beck since his was the
book that I looked back.
I love that.
Brett Benner (35:46):
No, that's, that's awesome.
Well, the book is fantastic.
What I do love is, we didn'tgive too much away because I do
feel like it's something thatneeds to be experienced.
Yeah.
And so I really look at, look atall those
Jess Walter (35:56):
little red tabs in there.
Brett Benner (35:58):
I, I did, I had a lot of tabs.
I was, I was, I appreciate that.
I was, I was writing quotes downand again, things that I
completely identified with andemphatically, you know, nodding
my head saying Yes, Reese, yes.
Jess Walter (36:12):
Well, let's let, let's, let's hope other readers
identify with him as just asmuch.
Brett Benner (36:16):
Yeah, I, I would say for anyone who's had that
impulse to throw their phone outthe window and just drive off
into the great unknown, this isabsolutely the book for you now,
but by independent, if you canjust, Walter to spend such a
pleasure, like I said before,I'm such a fan of your work.
I'm Oh, thanks.
I'm so excited for this and, uh,good luck with it all.
Jess Walter (36:34):
Thank you, Brett was great fun.
Brett Benner (36:36):
Thank you again, Jess, and if you like this
conversation or otherconversations you've heard on
Behind the Stack, pleaseconsider giving it a five star
review on your podcast platformof choice.
It's really helpful to raiseawareness for other people to
help find the podcast so I cancontinue to keep doing this.
I will be back later this weekin my double feature June with
(36:59):
Chris Chibnall, who is theauthor of Death at the White
Heart.
See you then.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.