April 25, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with author Jo Harkin for her novel, "The Pretender". They discuss her jump from speculative to historical fiction, bawdiness in the Tutor age, and the books that inspired her while writing this.
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Episode Transcript
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Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everyone, it's Brett Benner, and welcome to
(00:01):
another episode of Behind theStack.
I'm really happy to have joiningme today, author Jo Harkin,
whose new novel, the Pretenderis just fantastic, especially
for you history buffs out there,but you don't need to be a
history buff to really enjoythis story.
(00:22):
A little bit about Joe.
She studied literature atuniversity.
She daydreamed her way throughvarious jobs in her twenties
before becoming a full-timewriter.
Her debut novel Tell Me AnEnding was a New York Times Book
of the Year.
She lives in Berkshire, England.
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
(00:46):
I'm really thrilled to besitting down with Joe Harkin
today for her new book, thePretender.
First of all, the book, Joe.
The book is so, so, so good.
And I have to tell you, I didlike a marathon read of it and I
could not put it down.
It's, it's just brilliant and,and so damn funny.
(01:07):
But it's really fantastic.
So congratulations.
Jo Harkin (01:10):
Thank you very much and thank you for having me.
Brett Benner (01:13):
Before we launch into the book, which I certainly
wanna talk about, you are anenigma a little bit.
I was like looking upinformation.
I was like, there is very littleabout you on the internet.
Oh.
My only real my question for youis this.
Did you go to university towrite.
Jo Harkin (01:31):
So I actually started university doing psychology.
In it, it's, this is quiteunusual for universities in the
uk.
We were actually able, I thinkthis is a standard thing in
America, you can switch yourmajor but UK you normally sort
of, yes, you start off doingyour degree and you're stuck
with it.
Fortunately I wasn't stuck withpsychology and I actually
switched to English literature,which sort of started me off as
(01:53):
yeah.
That was, I always knew I wantedto be a writer.
I just thought I would be apsychologist and write in my
spare time.
And then I, I decided I was justgoing to be a, a writer full
time.
Obviously it took me a littlewhile to actually get there.
This is part of the biographythat I.
Obviously isn't on the internet.
It took me several years.
This is why it's not on theinternet.
(02:15):
But yes, I, so I was kind ofdoing odd jobs for quite a while
after uni.
Just day jobs really, and justtrying to write a book that was
good enough to get published.
Brett Benner (02:24):
Okay.
That's amazing.
And, and that was the, his thetell me an ending.
Correct.
Jo Harkin (02:28):
Actually, there were a couple of books before that
under a different namealtogether.
Brett Benner (02:31):
Wow.
Yes,
Jo Harkin (02:33):
I know.
Yeah.
So much, so much that's not onthe internet.
Yes.
I was finding my feet really asa writer with those, like I.
They were my learning process,but also they're published and
out there, so it's yeah,slightly embarrassing.
They're like my children thathave like embarrassed me, so we
don't talk about them.
(02:55):
So tell me an ending Englishfirst novel as Joe Harkin and I
actually do still like thatbook, so I, that's why I kept
the same name.
I I didn't try to like, cut tieswith that one.
Brett Benner (03:04):
I'm, I'm so glad 'cause I just bought it.
Jo Harkin (03:10):
It's a different reading experience to the
pretender, but I think it'sstill, yeah, I, I feel like if
you like the pretender, youshould also enjoy.
Tell me an ending.
I hope so.
Brett Benner (03:18):
Yeah.
Well, one of the things that itdoes say about you is that you
love, speculative fiction whichI think this falls under, like
sci-fi, speculative fiction.
Tell me an ending, which Ifound.
Completely fascinating becausethen this is anything but that
this is so radically different.
So like how did you get there?
(03:40):
How did that happen?
Jo Harkin (03:41):
I mean, in a way it's like there's a similarity in
that they're both kind of whatif novels?
So tell me, an ending isbasically.
What if you have memoriesremoved?
And what if you found out thatyou could get your memory back?
Would you do it?
And then the pretender is whatif you're a young peasant boy in
the dawn of Tudor England andyou're told that you're the
secret air to the throne.
It's all, it's, they're boththought experiments.
Brett Benner (04:04):
Yeah.
Now you were dealing with, let'sdo this first.
So we can get into the book.
Can you give like an elevatorpitch of the book for our
listeners and our viewers?
Jo Harkin (04:14):
Oh God.
I think I actually just did thataccidentally, didn't I?
With the young boy in in TudorEngland thing.
yeah,
Brett Benner (04:19):
we started and so I thought, we thought let's get
into it.
Jo Harkin (04:22):
Okay.
No worries.
So yes I guess the elevatorpitch would be at the beginning
of the tutor age young.
Boy, growing up on a farm whosebiggest enemy is his father's
goat, finds out one day thathe's the secret.
The Tudor throne chaos ensues
Brett Benner (04:39):
and, and this is based loosely on a real person
and a real incident, correct?
Jo Harkin (04:45):
Yes, that's true.
So this was kind of, I wasactually meant to be writing
another sci-fi when I stumbledacross this real person.
I was reading a book about themonarchy in England, as you do
when you're writing.
Another sci-fi and you'resupposed to be doing research
into neurological studies inscientific journals.
You pick up a book about themonarchy because you don't wanna
do your actual work.
(05:06):
So while I was reading that, Igotta the page on Henry vii, who
obviously is he's our firsttutor to King.
He, you know, father of HenryVIII and grandfather of
Elizabeth.
And so he was kind of, he, hedoesn't really get the press
that the others get.
He was an interesting king andthat he was quite tenuous.
(05:28):
And his reign was basicallycharacterized by a lot of
challenges, a lot of threat, andhe spent his time really
fighting to hold onto the throneand establishing so on, on this
page about him.
I was kind of inclined to skipit because he isn't.
As a king, he's quite a quiet,paranoid personality.
And then I noticed there wasthis footnote about a pretender
(05:49):
to the throne.
There were a couple, and thiswas sort of the lesser known of
the two pretenders, but it, hewas the first, it was called
Lambert Siminal and this is thetrue story of him.
I've obviously expanded on it.
But the essence of it is he kindof came out of nowhere and was
claimed to be this York heirfrom, from the former ruling
dynasty.
(06:09):
Everyone thought they'd sort ofbeen wiped out, but yeah, the
claim was that he is, he wasreturned that the York sort of
faction had got hold of himsomehow and they basically
invaded England with him as thefigurehead of their army.
A puppet really, because he wasjust a tiny boy.
And, yeah, it was, it was anill-fated attempt.
Obviously we don't, he didn'tbecome king.
(06:31):
But I just found that incrediblyinteresting.
That's, yeah, and it sort of gotme thinking and I couldn't
really put the idea down overthe coming days, weeks, when I
was supposed to be writing thesci-fi.
I just kept kind of mulling overthis, Googling him, like looking
up.
I think when I started to lookup primary sources, I knew that
I was deemed, I was like, I waswriting this story basically.
Brett Benner (06:53):
So between research and writing, how long
did it take you?
Jo Harkin (06:56):
Oh God.
So.
I keep, this is the, I've saidthis a few times, maybe I should
just stop saying this becauseit's quite embarrassing.
I went into it thinking I'lljust take a little detour from
my sci-fi career.
Well, you know, maybe sort ofspend a few months on research,
then a few months writing, knockit out in about a year and a
half.
It was five years.
All in all I was, yeah, it, itwas, looking back, I dunno how I
(07:19):
thought I could familiarizemyself with an entire period of
English history.
And write what turned out to bequite a big novel in that time.
But I guess if I'd known howdifficult it would be, I
probably wouldn't have started.
So I think my arrogance thereprobably was a good thing.
Brett Benner (07:34):
Oh my God.
Certainly, because it's, andagain, I'm, I'm not a history
buff in any stretch of theimagination, so I'm not the
person to go through it and say,well, this is not factual or
this is factual.
But certainly, and especially inthe second half of the novel,
you're hitting on so manyfactual things and factual
figures that are coming intothis that I couldn't help but
(07:56):
think I.
My God, she must have beenresearching this forever to put
this together.
'cause it is, it is vast.
Jo Harkin (08:04):
Yeah.
It's
Brett Benner (08:05):
and impressive.
Jo Harkin (08:06):
Yes.
Oh, thanks.
It's an interesting period ofhistory in that records are
actually quite patchy.
It's I think it's beenfictionalized or certainly like
the later.
The era is around it.
Like the Richard the third eraand the Henry the eighth era
have been heavily fictionalizedand I kind of went into it
thinking that there'd be a lotto get through in terms of the
historical record.
Actually, there's not so muchlike primary sources are very
(08:27):
thin.
We've got a lot of likehistorians kind of piling in
later and they've almost set ourideas of what that I, what that
time was.
But a lot of it is sort of, it'sjust fictionalized.
So getting to the actual.
What really was written at thatpoint was one of the challenges.
But then it was good as a writerbecause it did leave me with a
(08:48):
lot of space to just kind ofimagine.
So Lambert Seminal himself, forexample.
Yeah.
He is like, you know, he isstill a child.
When his invasion fails, hegets.
Some pardoned by Henry VII askind of this magnanimous act,
which is really an, an act ofhumiliation for him and all the
powerful people that supportedhim.
It's kind of saying, this kidisn't a threat.
(09:09):
I'm gonna pardon him and put himto work in my kitchens, and
that's the end of him kind ofthing.
Let's, let's put all this behindus.
And but for me, I was reallyexcited about that because he's
out of the history books at thispoint.
Like, we never hear anymoreabout him.
Like Henry Thei historians arenot going to return to, you
know, be like, what's he doingnow?
With, with this guy.
So I had the opportunity towrite a whole, like second act
(09:33):
with him as, as an adult by thispoint.
Like, what's he gonna do atcourt?
And it was really good to kindof create this story of.
He basically becomes involved inlike the, the politics
machinations and espionage ofHenry Thei court, which was
really fun.
So again, it's real life events,but I was able to sort of weave
(09:53):
him in in a way that didn't turnit into alternate history
because I didn't wanna do that,but just fit him around the, the
actual recorded events at thetime.
That was fun.
Brett Benner (10:03):
Yeah, and it, I, I have to say, I thought it was
just, it, it's so brilliantlydone.
And It plays out to me the bookand reading it, it feels very
much almost like a play becauseyou've written very definite
sections that he goes throughkind of from, from the beginning
when he's this young boy on afarm to where he ends up.
(10:25):
It reminds me a little bit ofWalter White's transformation
through Breaking Bad, but to seehis kind of, maturation into
what he becomes.
it's just simply fantastic.
One of the things that I soappreciated about the book, and
when I first saw the book andpeople were saying, you know,
for fans of Wolf Hall, well, Iwill be the first to say I was
not a fan of Wolf Hall.
(10:45):
Like I read it and canappreciate it, but I felt like
perhaps it's because I'm not.
From the uk perhaps it's not ahistory that was ingrained in
me.
I, I, you know, I, I couldappreciate it and, and somewhere
behind me, I have them all.
But what I loved about this isit's humor.
It was so funny and Bawdy and itreminded me very much of the
(11:09):
show.
The great.
And also Christopher Hampton'sadaption of:Laclos' les liasons
dangereuses, and, and that kindof humor that gets put into it
and the fun of it.
Jo Harkin (11:22):
I'm really glad that that spoke to you.
It's it, it kind of, I didn'treally, I, I actually love Wolf
Hall.
I think it's incredible.
I could not write Wolf Hall,obviously, and I wouldn't, you
know, why would you try?
I, I think I kind of needed todo something that was more my
wheelhouse and I am silly andbawdy and without any confidence
(11:43):
that anyone else would find mefunny at all, but.
It's I think like when I wasresearching it, I, I was looking
like I, I had this.
Image of the Tudor ages or latemedieval, which is what it
really is.
I was very like grim,oppressive.
Like, everyone's just goingaround in fear of being burned
at the stake.
They're all unwashed.
You know, women don't have any,you know, freedom in any way.
And it, and it's just a grimera.
(12:04):
That was what I thought.
And actually like, they did havefun.
Like it was, they had a very.
Satirical and obscene sense ofhumor, which like at all layers
of society, you see it, you seeit in the manuscripts and the
monasteries where people havelike doodled little characters
with their bums out.
Or, you know, the, like, thesort of Chaucerian tales with
(12:27):
that are just rude basicallythat.
I won't, I dunno how fastfriendly this, this podcast is.
I won't go into too much detail,but it's, you can
Brett Benner (12:35):
swear.
No, you can, you can sayanything.
It's fine.
Oh,
Jo Harkin (12:37):
okay.
Yeah, so yeah, they, they'requite filthy and, and they like
to poke fun at the upper levelsof society.
You've got these incredibly rudeFrench fao, which we're all
about sort of lords and ladiescook, holding each other and
stuff, and you know, people, youknow, just, just, just stupid
toilet humor, Basically at alllevels.
They enjoyed a dirty joke and sodo I, and it like.
(12:59):
That, that I was really pleasedabout because I, I felt like,
okay, I can see myself in thisera.
It's not completely alien.
Obviously a lot of the ways theythink are are very different,
but some things are timeless andso I felt like great, I can, I
can get into the spirit of theage.
I can write a book that doeshave tragedy and brutality and
darkness, but also kind of mixesthat with some humor and yeah,
(13:21):
and that's, I'm not gonna bemantel, I'm a lot sin than that.
But so are the medieval people,so that's great.
I think it worked well.
Brett Benner (13:28):
No, it did.
I, I was I just, just for anexample, and I love this so
much, it made me, this is thefirst time, I think it's page
nine, and I burst out laughingwhen John, when the book opens,
his name is John and he's withhis brothers who are older and
tease him mercilessly and, hesays his brothers are also the
ones who taught him to read andwrite.
They showed him how to make inkand sharpen a goose feather
(13:50):
quill, and how to write JohnCollin, and then a sig sigle,
which they told him meant John,but which even he could see was
a drawing of a penis and twoballs.
They were proud of him forrealizing.
Jo Harkin (14:02):
I'm laughing at my own joke there.
You can see where my level is.
Brett Benner (14:07):
Yes, exactly.
And when I read that I was like,okay, I am so in, I am so in for
this ride because I knew exactlywhere it was going.
It's also something that struckme so much about I.
The story, and I had to keepgoing back to remind myself is
the age of him and later Joan,who I want to get into, who's
(14:29):
such an amazing character.
But just the age of these kids,which what they were, they were
kids.
I.
And what they were coming upagainst that.
Can you just talk a little bitabout that, just the ages?
Jo Harkin (14:40):
Yeah, sure.
So, I mean, childhood in theTudor age was obviously quite
different to what it is now.
Like he was, as a child, he wasbasically working on the farm
already.
He was a contributing part of,of the family farm and.
At the other end of the scalewhen he's kind of thrown into
the world of the, the nobility.
Again, you are, you are intraining.
You are, he was, he'd be doingsword fighting learning Latin.
(15:02):
It's, they didn't really getmuch time to just sort of do, do
childhood stuff.
They would still play, but itwas.
The process was accelerated.
So that was interesting to tryto get my head around that.
So as the novel progresses,he's, he's 10 when it starts.
And then he's sort of hittingpuberty as, as we go through,
so.
(15:23):
He basically ends up, he goesfrom the countryside of
Oxfordshire to Oxford, to thecourts of Belgium, what is now
modern day Belgium to the Courtof Ireland, and then finally to
England again.
And around the time he arrivesin Ireland, he's basically just
entering adolescence and that'swhen he meets Joan, who is his
love interest a slightlysociopathic love interest, a bit
(15:45):
of a complex character.
And he is, it is basically hisstruggle to try to have his own
romantic life and do the thingsthat teenage boys do while he is
being puppeted to become king.
And has this destiny sort offorced on him.
So there's a, yeah, it wasinteresting to kind of play with
the challenge of that for him.
Brett Benner (16:05):
Yeah.
So let's, I mean, God, I loveJoan.
Let's talk about her for asecond.
Okay.
So she's, like you said, when hegets to the court of Ireland
he's living with his family andshe is one of, is it four or
five children?
And she's the, she's of, oflike, I think it's four
daughters and a son.
Is that right?
Jo Harkin (16:21):
So Joan is one of five of the Earl of Kildair.
And and they have one baby sonwho obviously they're much
relieved about.
So we're, to give some context,he arrives in Ireland and this
is.
The Earl of Kildair was alsoknown as the Great Earl or the
Uncrowded King of Ireland.
He was a very charismatic,powerful figure and he was fun
to write, but his daughters wereprobably even more fun.
(16:43):
Joan in particular, it's kind ofconcerning how easy it was to
create such a Machiavellianpsychopathic female.
Like, I dunno why it just flowedout me, but it really did.
So she basically takes it onherself kind of.
As Edward as he has called atthis point, his name changes.
As the book goes on, she decidesto give Edward a bit of an
(17:04):
education in courtly schemingbecause when he arrives he's
very innocent.
He's quite, he's religious.
He's kind of having early sexualthoughts, but he feels bad about
them.
If he tells a lie, he thinks hehas to do penance and he really
takes everything he's told ingood faith.
The nobles who are sort ofpuppeting him.
Tell him that he's the secret,your care who was swapped at
birth and he believes them.
(17:25):
And it's Joan who first says, doyou think that's really who you
are?
And he's absolutely shocked.
And this kind of is a bit of arevelation to him, this, this
introduction of doubt into hisworld.
And she initially thinks he'squite pathetic and but then
decides to kind of help him outand yeah, give him a few lessons
in survival, which he points outthat he is absolutely going to
(17:48):
need.
Brett Benner (17:48):
Yeah, it's, it's, first of all, I loved this whole
family, and I have to, I have tosay, it's such an interesting
thing, like looking back at thebook because the, the two
families that he kind of liveswith first, the one that he's
raised with before, he getstaken on this journey and I.
The where he ends up with thekils, with Kilder and his
family, they're, they're very,for the most part loving and
(18:10):
loving to him.
I loved kil, there'srelationship with his wife.
It was very sweet and.
Sexy and they were very much inlove with each other and, you
know, he very much adores all ofhis children.
He loves that he has a son, buthe, he has a special place for
Joan, as I think the reader verymuch develops for Joan as well
(18:32):
because of everything that sheis.
And she's just fearless and saysher mind and because of their
relationship that develops andit's, it's so, it's not typical
necessarily, which is why Ithink it's so great and why
you're rooting for it so much,because almost despite of his
innocence and who he is, and sherealizes what, like you said,
(18:55):
what she has to do to help him.
She finds herself falling forhim and it's just, it's so
great.
Jo Harkin (19:01):
Good.
It was yeah, it was nice toportray the family dynamic.
I think, again, because of thedarkness of the story, I didn't
want him to just be.
Just having an unrelentinglyterrible time as, as he's
propelled around all thesedifferent places.
And I think in Ireland, he doeskind of find the sense of family
that he misses from the farm.
(19:22):
Obviously early on he has thisreal sense of betrayal because
the, the people that he thinkthinks that his father, brothers
dead mother, who he barelyremembers, you know, he, he has
a, a lot of feeling for thesepeople.
This is all he knows, and he issuddenly taken away.
And not only is he removed fromthem and is lonely and sad, but
he has this feeling of betrayalthat he's, he is, been lied to,
(19:42):
like he's, he's been told thathe is a peasant child growing up
to be a sort of a, you know, afarmer and and that his dad
isn't his dad.
His, his brothers aren't hisbrothers.
He's never gonna see any of themagain.
And that's a tough pill toswallow.
So I really wanted to give himsome human connection later,
which he obviously.
Desperately latches onto andyeah, and have warmth there and
(20:04):
warmth in moments throughout thebook.
So even in, even in the worstplaces he ends up, he's still
finding people to bond withbecause I think this is what,
you know what we do.
This is human nature and this iswhat happens.
So I'm glad that that camethrough and that.
Yeah.
And that sense of love isrepresented because there were
loving relationships, there werelove matches.
Like especially in the peasantclass, most people chose who
(20:26):
they married.
It was anybody, the nobles thatgot sort of forcibly married
often to people.
So yeah, that I, I likedportraying that, that was good.
Brett Benner (20:34):
It's interesting when he gets to England too, one
of the things that, and it's ofcourse, it's, it's right on, but
seeing it play out is the amountof.
Gossip that happens among thiscourt from the very top to the
very bottom and the, thepervasiveness of it and how
everybody has something to telland everyone has something to
(20:56):
hide.
It's.
It's literally almost like aFeydeau farce
Jo Harkin (21:01):
yes.
That was enjoyable.
Like the, the court section.
I think the challenge with thatwas it could have been a bit of
a downer.
Like he's, he arrives inEngland, he's supposed to be
taking the throne and becomingking.
Obviously the attempt collapsesand he's thrown into the cells.
He's forced to sign a confessionand and then he ends up in a
kitchen.
And this is like a, this is thedark moment in his narrative,
(21:24):
but then he sort of.
He remembers what Jones taughthim.
He starts to gather his wits andthis actually becomes the first
time in his life he's had someagency.
So he is maneuvering within thisspace and he wants, he wants
vengeance against the peoplethat he views as having ruined
his life.
And he wants to get back, to, toIreland, to, to Joan.
And but first he has to navigatecourt.
(21:46):
And it is, yeah, it's a farcicalplace.
It's full of gossip, it's fullof scheming.
And I, that was actually a, areally interesting second act.
I thought I really got into thatbit and yeah.
And I think it was accurate tothe period there was, there was
a lot of bed hopping and a lotof bitching and scheming.
Brett Benner (22:03):
Yeah, and it's also the introduction of
Beatrice who becomes, like youtalked about the, the need for
you know, community or friendsor finding each other.
And who works in the, who works,if I'm not mistaken, works in
the kitchen with him or as aservant and strikes up a
friendship with him, she's sucha great character and I loved
this relationship and you know,not spoiling anything.
(22:24):
She has her own kind ofsurprises that kind of come out
later, which was great becausethat whole relationship was not
what I expected it to be or whatwas going to be.
So I thought she was a greataddition and surprise,
Jo Harkin (22:35):
Yeah, I think she's kind of the heart of that
section because at this point inthe novel he is seminal as we
now know him because he is beenforced to give up the name
Edward Earl of Warwick.
He, this is his final, well, no,not even his final
transformation.
Seminal has become quite a dark,hardened character by this
point.
He is.
Yeah, and I think Beatrice ishis, she represents this sort of
(22:58):
thread of human connection that,and hope that's, she's trying to
reach out to him and, and stophim going down a path of, of
vengeance and, and callousnessand yeah.
So she was an importantcounterbalance to him, I think
in that section.
It's, yeah.
I'm glad, I'm glad she camethrough in that way.
Brett Benner (23:15):
Having finished this, and now I'm sure you're
back to your your sci-fispeculative novel, but do you
think you'll ever go back tohistory?
Jo Harkin (23:22):
Actually, I I'm not gonna be writing sci-fi again
for probably another five years.
I'm so I've got a, a two bookcontract with my publisher in
the us.
And they would like to seeanother historical, which is
great.
So it will be the same era likea few years later, different
cast of characters.
So this time it's going to be ayoung woman in medieval London
(23:44):
and or late medieval London andshe.
It's just gonna be a completelydifferent section of society.
So it is still, Henry Thei isthe king but she's basically the
daughter of a rich merchant.
And she's spoiled.
And so she has quite anunprecedented level of freedom
as a woman at that era.
And she has just, she'sbasically full of all these.
(24:05):
Dreams of becoming a leadingdoctor or scientist and her
father's just like, yes, youcan.
Absolutely, you can do anythingyou want.
And so she kind of is almost anopposite trajectory to Lambert
Signal in that he starts with nopower and she starts thinking
she can just do anything.
And so she has to go on her ownjourney of discovering the
(24:25):
limitations of the age and herown limitations.
the plan is to send her to thecourt of Spain at the time where
you have this queen called Anala loca of Joanna the mad.
And she wasn't really mad.
She was basically takenadvantage of by the men around
her who kind of wanted to rulein her place.
So our heroine is basicallygoing to travel to Spain and go
(24:47):
on a bit of a farcical adventurethere.
So it is, yeah, it will bedifferent, but I think the humor
will, will stay the same.
Brett Benner (24:54):
That's fantastic.
What do you read?
Like, what is your go-to?
Jo Harkin (24:58):
I mean so much, but in the context of this, the,
I'll talk about the things thatlike really fed this novel.
One huge one was Lincoln in theBardo by George Saunders.
I dunno, have you read that one?
I loved it.
Yeah.
Loved it.
Well, I'm not surprised youloved it.
It's it would kind of, itactually really helped with the
writing of this one at, at thetime when I was sort of just
writing stupid jokes andthinking like, no one is going
(25:21):
to like this.
People are gonna think that thisis just, yeah, this stupid
knockoff, like, not, not mantel.
What, what even is it?
But it re I, and then I rereadLincoln in the bar because it'd
been quite a while since I readit.
And I think.
I, I'd kind of forgotten howabsurd it is and how, you know,
you've got, it's incrediblymoving and poignant.
Just beautiful.
(25:41):
But then you have this ghostwandering round with a huge
direction for most of it, andthat, that was like my kind of
like North Star, like every timeI felt lacking in confidence
that maybe I'd been tooridiculous.
I thought about this, this ghostand George Saunders and I, and
it gave me the confidence tosort of plow on and, and do
something silly of my own.
So that was such a massiveinspiration and yeah, I.
(26:05):
Hopefully, hopefully my book issort of its own its own beast,
but I think it, hopefully itshares that sort of spirit with,
with Lincoln in the Bardo ifyeah, if it's not presumptuous
to even think it.
Brett Benner (26:16):
No, no, no.
I don't think it is at all.
Okay,
Jo Harkin (26:19):
thanks.
Other writers I love, I mean, Ido love mantel Francis Buffet, I
don't know how, how well knownhe is in America.
He was really great like GoldenHill.
Do you know that one?
Brett Benner (26:31):
No, I dunno that, I dunno him.
Jo Harkin (26:32):
It, so it's a historical, but it's, it's got a
twist, which actually, do youknow what I can't even say.
It's a big spoiler.
So, but it's like a, a reallysideways history and I love
that.
And then other, other writerswho just did an experimental
take on history, like NicolaBarker was a big one.
She's, she's very funny, verylike formally inventive.
And yeah, Susanna Clark actuallywho wrote Jonathan Strange and
(26:54):
Dr.
Norell, even though that's sortof an alternate history, I
really love her style and thatsense of like other worldliness
that permeates her writing and,and that sort of, that
influenced me also, I.
Brett Benner (27:05):
Well, I just have to say the book is so fantastic.
I'm so excited for you you know,wandering into this new realm of
history, alternative history orwhatever it is.
But I.
Please people go out and get thebook.
Buy independent if you can.
And like, what a gorgeous cover.
I love this cover so much too.
I think they just did aspectacular job.
Jo Harkin (27:28):
They really did.
It is beautiful.
I'm, I'm so pleased with it.
Brett Benner (27:31):
Well, I'm really excited for you.
I'm really excited for the book,so congratulations and you know,
I hope it's a big fat hit.
Jo Harkin (27:40):
Thank you so much.
It is I'm really glad youenjoyed it and thank you for
reading it.
It's, it's a big, big guy, sowell.
Brett Benner (27:50):
No, it, but it, you know what, it's so engaging.
And that's the thing, like, Ilove, personally, I love a big
book, but if it can grab me and,you know that's the other thing
and, and it certainly does that.
So for anybody who's intimidatedby sides do not be.
Brilliant.
Which only seemed appropriatejoke for this book,
Jo Harkin (28:08):
I think.
Yeah, totally.
You really nailed it.
I think that that's
Brett Benner (28:15):
Thank you again Joe, and if you enjoyed this
conversation or otherconversations I've had with some
of your favorite authors, pleaseconsider liking and subscribing
on your podcast platform ofchoice.
Another thing that would bereally helpful if you have a
moment is give a review.
Five stars and review only helpsthe profile of my podcast grow.
(28:38):
Which is only gonna help mecontinue to bring these
conversations to you.
Thank you all so much and I willbe back next week.
Hey everyone, it's Brett Benner, and welcome to
(00:01):
another episode of Behind theStack.
I'm really happy to have joiningme today, author Jo Harkin,
whose new novel, the Pretenderis just fantastic, especially
for you history buffs out there,but you don't need to be a
history buff to really enjoythis story.
(00:22):
A little bit about Joe.
She studied literature atuniversity.
She daydreamed her way throughvarious jobs in her twenties
before becoming a full-timewriter.
Her debut novel Tell Me AnEnding was a New York Times Book
of the Year.
She lives in Berkshire, England.
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
(00:46):
I'm really thrilled to besitting down with Joe Harkin
today for her new book, thePretender.
First of all, the book, Joe.
The book is so, so, so good.
And I have to tell you, I didlike a marathon read of it and I
could not put it down.
It's, it's just brilliant and,and so damn funny.
(01:07):
But it's really fantastic.
So congratulations.
Jo Harkin (01:10):
Thank you very much and thank you for having me.
Brett Benner (01:13):
Before we launch into the book, which I certainly
wanna talk about, you are anenigma a little bit.
I was like looking upinformation.
I was like, there is very littleabout you on the internet.
Oh.
My only real my question for youis this.
Did you go to university towrite.
Jo Harkin (01:31):
So I actually started university doing psychology.
In it, it's, this is quiteunusual for universities in the
uk.
We were actually able, I thinkthis is a standard thing in
America, you can switch yourmajor but UK you normally sort
of, yes, you start off doingyour degree and you're stuck
with it.
Fortunately I wasn't stuck withpsychology and I actually
switched to English literature,which sort of started me off as
(01:53):
yeah.
That was, I always knew I wantedto be a writer.
I just thought I would be apsychologist and write in my
spare time.
And then I, I decided I was justgoing to be a, a writer full
time.
Obviously it took me a littlewhile to actually get there.
This is part of the biographythat I.
Obviously isn't on the internet.
It took me several years.
This is why it's not on theinternet.
(02:15):
But yes, I, so I was kind ofdoing odd jobs for quite a while
after uni.
Just day jobs really, and justtrying to write a book that was
good enough to get published.
Brett Benner (02:24):
Okay.
That's amazing.
And, and that was the, his thetell me an ending.
Correct.
Jo Harkin (02:28):
Actually, there were a couple of books before that
under a different namealtogether.
Brett Benner (02:31):
Wow.
Yes,
Jo Harkin (02:33):
I know.
Yeah.
So much, so much that's not onthe internet.
Yes.
I was finding my feet really asa writer with those, like I.
They were my learning process,but also they're published and
out there, so it's yeah,slightly embarrassing.
They're like my children thathave like embarrassed me, so we
don't talk about them.
(02:55):
So tell me an ending Englishfirst novel as Joe Harkin and I
actually do still like thatbook, so I, that's why I kept
the same name.
I I didn't try to like, cut tieswith that one.
Brett Benner (03:04):
I'm, I'm so glad 'cause I just bought it.
Jo Harkin (03:10):
It's a different reading experience to the
pretender, but I think it'sstill, yeah, I, I feel like if
you like the pretender, youshould also enjoy.
Tell me an ending.
I hope so.
Brett Benner (03:18):
Yeah.
Well, one of the things that itdoes say about you is that you
love, speculative fiction whichI think this falls under, like
sci-fi, speculative fiction.
Tell me an ending, which Ifound.
Completely fascinating becausethen this is anything but that
this is so radically different.
So like how did you get there?
(03:40):
How did that happen?
Jo Harkin (03:41):
I mean, in a way it's like there's a similarity in
that they're both kind of whatif novels?
So tell me, an ending isbasically.
What if you have memoriesremoved?
And what if you found out thatyou could get your memory back?
Would you do it?
And then the pretender is whatif you're a young peasant boy in
the dawn of Tudor England andyou're told that you're the
secret air to the throne.
It's all, it's, they're boththought experiments.
Brett Benner (04:04):
Yeah.
Now you were dealing with, let'sdo this first.
So we can get into the book.
Can you give like an elevatorpitch of the book for our
listeners and our viewers?
Jo Harkin (04:14):
Oh God.
I think I actually just did thataccidentally, didn't I?
With the young boy in in TudorEngland thing.
yeah,
Brett Benner (04:19):
we started and so I thought, we thought let's get
into it.
Jo Harkin (04:22):
Okay.
No worries.
So yes I guess the elevatorpitch would be at the beginning
of the tutor age young.
Boy, growing up on a farm whosebiggest enemy is his father's
goat, finds out one day thathe's the secret.
The Tudor throne chaos ensues
Brett Benner (04:39):
and, and this is based loosely on a real person
and a real incident, correct?
Jo Harkin (04:45):
Yes, that's true.
So this was kind of, I wasactually meant to be writing
another sci-fi when I stumbledacross this real person.
I was reading a book about themonarchy in England, as you do
when you're writing.
Another sci-fi and you'resupposed to be doing research
into neurological studies inscientific journals.
You pick up a book about themonarchy because you don't wanna
do your actual work.
(05:06):
So while I was reading that, Igotta the page on Henry vii, who
obviously is he's our firsttutor to King.
He, you know, father of HenryVIII and grandfather of
Elizabeth.
And so he was kind of, he, hedoesn't really get the press
that the others get.
He was an interesting king andthat he was quite tenuous.
(05:28):
And his reign was basicallycharacterized by a lot of
challenges, a lot of threat, andhe spent his time really
fighting to hold onto the throneand establishing so on, on this
page about him.
I was kind of inclined to skipit because he isn't.
As a king, he's quite a quiet,paranoid personality.
And then I noticed there wasthis footnote about a pretender
(05:49):
to the throne.
There were a couple, and thiswas sort of the lesser known of
the two pretenders, but it, hewas the first, it was called
Lambert Siminal and this is thetrue story of him.
I've obviously expanded on it.
But the essence of it is he kindof came out of nowhere and was
claimed to be this York heirfrom, from the former ruling
dynasty.
(06:09):
Everyone thought they'd sort ofbeen wiped out, but yeah, the
claim was that he is, he wasreturned that the York sort of
faction had got hold of himsomehow and they basically
invaded England with him as thefigurehead of their army.
A puppet really, because he wasjust a tiny boy.
And, yeah, it was, it was anill-fated attempt.
Obviously we don't, he didn'tbecome king.
(06:31):
But I just found that incrediblyinteresting.
That's, yeah, and it sort of gotme thinking and I couldn't
really put the idea down overthe coming days, weeks, when I
was supposed to be writing thesci-fi.
I just kept kind of mulling overthis, Googling him, like looking
up.
I think when I started to lookup primary sources, I knew that
I was deemed, I was like, I waswriting this story basically.
Brett Benner (06:53):
So between research and writing, how long
did it take you?
Jo Harkin (06:56):
Oh God.
So.
I keep, this is the, I've saidthis a few times, maybe I should
just stop saying this becauseit's quite embarrassing.
I went into it thinking I'lljust take a little detour from
my sci-fi career.
Well, you know, maybe sort ofspend a few months on research,
then a few months writing, knockit out in about a year and a
half.
It was five years.
All in all I was, yeah, it, itwas, looking back, I dunno how I
(07:19):
thought I could familiarizemyself with an entire period of
English history.
And write what turned out to bequite a big novel in that time.
But I guess if I'd known howdifficult it would be, I
probably wouldn't have started.
So I think my arrogance thereprobably was a good thing.
Brett Benner (07:34):
Oh my God.
Certainly, because it's, andagain, I'm, I'm not a history
buff in any stretch of theimagination, so I'm not the
person to go through it and say,well, this is not factual or
this is factual.
But certainly, and especially inthe second half of the novel,
you're hitting on so manyfactual things and factual
figures that are coming intothis that I couldn't help but
(07:56):
think I.
My God, she must have beenresearching this forever to put
this together.
'cause it is, it is vast.
Jo Harkin (08:04):
Yeah.
It's
Brett Benner (08:05):
and impressive.
Jo Harkin (08:06):
Yes.
Oh, thanks.
It's an interesting period ofhistory in that records are
actually quite patchy.
It's I think it's beenfictionalized or certainly like
the later.
The era is around it.
Like the Richard the third eraand the Henry the eighth era
have been heavily fictionalizedand I kind of went into it
thinking that there'd be a lotto get through in terms of the
historical record.
Actually, there's not so muchlike primary sources are very
(08:27):
thin.
We've got a lot of likehistorians kind of piling in
later and they've almost set ourideas of what that I, what that
time was.
But a lot of it is sort of, it'sjust fictionalized.
So getting to the actual.
What really was written at thatpoint was one of the challenges.
But then it was good as a writerbecause it did leave me with a
(08:48):
lot of space to just kind ofimagine.
So Lambert Seminal himself, forexample.
Yeah.
He is like, you know, he isstill a child.
When his invasion fails, hegets.
Some pardoned by Henry VII askind of this magnanimous act,
which is really an, an act ofhumiliation for him and all the
powerful people that supportedhim.
It's kind of saying, this kidisn't a threat.
(09:09):
I'm gonna pardon him and put himto work in my kitchens, and
that's the end of him kind ofthing.
Let's, let's put all this behindus.
And but for me, I was reallyexcited about that because he's
out of the history books at thispoint.
Like, we never hear anymoreabout him.
Like Henry Thei historians arenot going to return to, you
know, be like, what's he doingnow?
With, with this guy.
So I had the opportunity towrite a whole, like second act
(09:33):
with him as, as an adult by thispoint.
Like, what's he gonna do atcourt?
And it was really good to kindof create this story of.
He basically becomes involved inlike the, the politics
machinations and espionage ofHenry Thei court, which was
really fun.
So again, it's real life events,but I was able to sort of weave
(09:53):
him in in a way that didn't turnit into alternate history
because I didn't wanna do that,but just fit him around the, the
actual recorded events at thetime.
That was fun.
Brett Benner (10:03):
Yeah, and it, I, I have to say, I thought it was
just, it, it's so brilliantlydone.
And It plays out to me the bookand reading it, it feels very
much almost like a play becauseyou've written very definite
sections that he goes throughkind of from, from the beginning
when he's this young boy on afarm to where he ends up.
(10:25):
It reminds me a little bit ofWalter White's transformation
through Breaking Bad, but to seehis kind of, maturation into
what he becomes.
it's just simply fantastic.
One of the things that I soappreciated about the book, and
when I first saw the book andpeople were saying, you know,
for fans of Wolf Hall, well, Iwill be the first to say I was
not a fan of Wolf Hall.
(10:45):
Like I read it and canappreciate it, but I felt like
perhaps it's because I'm not.
From the uk perhaps it's not ahistory that was ingrained in
me.
I, I, you know, I, I couldappreciate it and, and somewhere
behind me, I have them all.
But what I loved about this isit's humor.
It was so funny and Bawdy and itreminded me very much of the
(11:09):
show.
The great.
And also Christopher Hampton'sadaption of:Laclos' les liasons
dangereuses, and, and that kindof humor that gets put into it
and the fun of it.
Jo Harkin (11:22):
I'm really glad that that spoke to you.
It's it, it kind of, I didn'treally, I, I actually love Wolf
Hall.
I think it's incredible.
I could not write Wolf Hall,obviously, and I wouldn't, you
know, why would you try?
I, I think I kind of needed todo something that was more my
wheelhouse and I am silly andbawdy and without any confidence
(11:43):
that anyone else would find mefunny at all, but.
It's I think like when I wasresearching it, I, I was looking
like I, I had this.
Image of the Tudor ages or latemedieval, which is what it
really is.
I was very like grim,oppressive.
Like, everyone's just goingaround in fear of being burned
at the stake.
They're all unwashed.
You know, women don't have any,you know, freedom in any way.
And it, and it's just a grimera.
(12:04):
That was what I thought.
And actually like, they did havefun.
Like it was, they had a very.
Satirical and obscene sense ofhumor, which like at all layers
of society, you see it, you seeit in the manuscripts and the
monasteries where people havelike doodled little characters
with their bums out.
Or, you know, the, like, thesort of Chaucerian tales with
(12:27):
that are just rude basicallythat.
I won't, I dunno how fastfriendly this, this podcast is.
I won't go into too much detail,but it's, you can
Brett Benner (12:35):
swear.
No, you can, you can sayanything.
It's fine.
Oh,
Jo Harkin (12:37):
okay.
Yeah, so yeah, they, they'requite filthy and, and they like
to poke fun at the upper levelsof society.
You've got these incredibly rudeFrench fao, which we're all
about sort of lords and ladiescook, holding each other and
stuff, and you know, people, youknow, just, just, just stupid
toilet humor, Basically at alllevels.
They enjoyed a dirty joke and sodo I, and it like.
(12:59):
That, that I was really pleasedabout because I, I felt like,
okay, I can see myself in thisera.
It's not completely alien.
Obviously a lot of the ways theythink are are very different,
but some things are timeless andso I felt like great, I can, I
can get into the spirit of theage.
I can write a book that doeshave tragedy and brutality and
darkness, but also kind of mixesthat with some humor and yeah,
(13:21):
and that's, I'm not gonna bemantel, I'm a lot sin than that.
But so are the medieval people,so that's great.
I think it worked well.
Brett Benner (13:28):
No, it did.
I, I was I just, just for anexample, and I love this so
much, it made me, this is thefirst time, I think it's page
nine, and I burst out laughingwhen John, when the book opens,
his name is John and he's withhis brothers who are older and
tease him mercilessly and, hesays his brothers are also the
ones who taught him to read andwrite.
They showed him how to make inkand sharpen a goose feather
(13:50):
quill, and how to write JohnCollin, and then a sig sigle,
which they told him meant John,but which even he could see was
a drawing of a penis and twoballs.
They were proud of him forrealizing.
Jo Harkin (14:02):
I'm laughing at my own joke there.
You can see where my level is.
Brett Benner (14:07):
Yes, exactly.
And when I read that I was like,okay, I am so in, I am so in for
this ride because I knew exactlywhere it was going.
It's also something that struckme so much about I.
The story, and I had to keepgoing back to remind myself is
the age of him and later Joan,who I want to get into, who's
(14:29):
such an amazing character.
But just the age of these kids,which what they were, they were
kids.
I.
And what they were coming upagainst that.
Can you just talk a little bitabout that, just the ages?
Jo Harkin (14:40):
Yeah, sure.
So, I mean, childhood in theTudor age was obviously quite
different to what it is now.
Like he was, as a child, he wasbasically working on the farm
already.
He was a contributing part of,of the family farm and.
At the other end of the scalewhen he's kind of thrown into
the world of the, the nobility.
Again, you are, you are intraining.
You are, he was, he'd be doingsword fighting learning Latin.
(15:02):
It's, they didn't really getmuch time to just sort of do, do
childhood stuff.
They would still play, but itwas.
The process was accelerated.
So that was interesting to tryto get my head around that.
So as the novel progresses,he's, he's 10 when it starts.
And then he's sort of hittingpuberty as, as we go through,
so.
(15:23):
He basically ends up, he goesfrom the countryside of
Oxfordshire to Oxford, to thecourts of Belgium, what is now
modern day Belgium to the Courtof Ireland, and then finally to
England again.
And around the time he arrivesin Ireland, he's basically just
entering adolescence and that'swhen he meets Joan, who is his
love interest a slightlysociopathic love interest, a bit
(15:45):
of a complex character.
And he is, it is basically hisstruggle to try to have his own
romantic life and do the thingsthat teenage boys do while he is
being puppeted to become king.
And has this destiny sort offorced on him.
So there's a, yeah, it wasinteresting to kind of play with
the challenge of that for him.
Brett Benner (16:05):
Yeah.
So let's, I mean, God, I loveJoan.
Let's talk about her for asecond.
Okay.
So she's, like you said, when hegets to the court of Ireland
he's living with his family andshe is one of, is it four or
five children?
And she's the, she's of, oflike, I think it's four
daughters and a son.
Is that right?
Jo Harkin (16:21):
So Joan is one of five of the Earl of Kildair.
And and they have one baby sonwho obviously they're much
relieved about.
So we're, to give some context,he arrives in Ireland and this
is.
The Earl of Kildair was alsoknown as the Great Earl or the
Uncrowded King of Ireland.
He was a very charismatic,powerful figure and he was fun
to write, but his daughters wereprobably even more fun.
(16:43):
Joan in particular, it's kind ofconcerning how easy it was to
create such a Machiavellianpsychopathic female.
Like, I dunno why it just flowedout me, but it really did.
So she basically takes it onherself kind of.
As Edward as he has called atthis point, his name changes.
As the book goes on, she decidesto give Edward a bit of an
(17:04):
education in courtly schemingbecause when he arrives he's
very innocent.
He's quite, he's religious.
He's kind of having early sexualthoughts, but he feels bad about
them.
If he tells a lie, he thinks hehas to do penance and he really
takes everything he's told ingood faith.
The nobles who are sort ofpuppeting him.
Tell him that he's the secret,your care who was swapped at
birth and he believes them.
(17:25):
And it's Joan who first says, doyou think that's really who you
are?
And he's absolutely shocked.
And this kind of is a bit of arevelation to him, this, this
introduction of doubt into hisworld.
And she initially thinks he'squite pathetic and but then
decides to kind of help him outand yeah, give him a few lessons
in survival, which he points outthat he is absolutely going to
(17:48):
need.
Brett Benner (17:48):
Yeah, it's, it's, first of all, I loved this whole
family, and I have to, I have tosay, it's such an interesting
thing, like looking back at thebook because the, the two
families that he kind of liveswith first, the one that he's
raised with before, he getstaken on this journey and I.
The where he ends up with thekils, with Kilder and his
family, they're, they're very,for the most part loving and
(18:10):
loving to him.
I loved kil, there'srelationship with his wife.
It was very sweet and.
Sexy and they were very much inlove with each other and, you
know, he very much adores all ofhis children.
He loves that he has a son, buthe, he has a special place for
Joan, as I think the reader verymuch develops for Joan as well
(18:32):
because of everything that sheis.
And she's just fearless and saysher mind and because of their
relationship that develops andit's, it's so, it's not typical
necessarily, which is why Ithink it's so great and why
you're rooting for it so much,because almost despite of his
innocence and who he is, and sherealizes what, like you said,
(18:55):
what she has to do to help him.
She finds herself falling forhim and it's just, it's so
great.
Jo Harkin (19:01):
Good.
It was yeah, it was nice toportray the family dynamic.
I think, again, because of thedarkness of the story, I didn't
want him to just be.
Just having an unrelentinglyterrible time as, as he's
propelled around all thesedifferent places.
And I think in Ireland, he doeskind of find the sense of family
that he misses from the farm.
(19:22):
Obviously early on he has thisreal sense of betrayal because
the, the people that he thinkthinks that his father, brothers
dead mother, who he barelyremembers, you know, he, he has
a, a lot of feeling for thesepeople.
This is all he knows, and he issuddenly taken away.
And not only is he removed fromthem and is lonely and sad, but
he has this feeling of betrayalthat he's, he is, been lied to,
(19:42):
like he's, he's been told thathe is a peasant child growing up
to be a sort of a, you know, afarmer and and that his dad
isn't his dad.
His, his brothers aren't hisbrothers.
He's never gonna see any of themagain.
And that's a tough pill toswallow.
So I really wanted to give himsome human connection later,
which he obviously.
Desperately latches onto andyeah, and have warmth there and
(20:04):
warmth in moments throughout thebook.
So even in, even in the worstplaces he ends up, he's still
finding people to bond withbecause I think this is what,
you know what we do.
This is human nature and this iswhat happens.
So I'm glad that that camethrough and that.
Yeah.
And that sense of love isrepresented because there were
loving relationships, there werelove matches.
Like especially in the peasantclass, most people chose who
(20:26):
they married.
It was anybody, the nobles thatgot sort of forcibly married
often to people.
So yeah, that I, I likedportraying that, that was good.
Brett Benner (20:34):
It's interesting when he gets to England too, one
of the things that, and it's ofcourse, it's, it's right on, but
seeing it play out is the amountof.
Gossip that happens among thiscourt from the very top to the
very bottom and the, thepervasiveness of it and how
everybody has something to telland everyone has something to
(20:56):
hide.
It's.
It's literally almost like aFeydeau farce
Jo Harkin (21:01):
yes.
That was enjoyable.
Like the, the court section.
I think the challenge with thatwas it could have been a bit of
a downer.
Like he's, he arrives inEngland, he's supposed to be
taking the throne and becomingking.
Obviously the attempt collapsesand he's thrown into the cells.
He's forced to sign a confessionand and then he ends up in a
kitchen.
And this is like a, this is thedark moment in his narrative,
(21:24):
but then he sort of.
He remembers what Jones taughthim.
He starts to gather his wits andthis actually becomes the first
time in his life he's had someagency.
So he is maneuvering within thisspace and he wants, he wants
vengeance against the peoplethat he views as having ruined
his life.
And he wants to get back, to, toIreland, to, to Joan.
And but first he has to navigatecourt.
(21:46):
And it is, yeah, it's a farcicalplace.
It's full of gossip, it's fullof scheming.
And I, that was actually a, areally interesting second act.
I thought I really got into thatbit and yeah.
And I think it was accurate tothe period there was, there was
a lot of bed hopping and a lotof bitching and scheming.
Brett Benner (22:03):
Yeah, and it's also the introduction of
Beatrice who becomes, like youtalked about the, the need for
you know, community or friendsor finding each other.
And who works in the, who works,if I'm not mistaken, works in
the kitchen with him or as aservant and strikes up a
friendship with him, she's sucha great character and I loved
this relationship and you know,not spoiling anything.
(22:24):
She has her own kind ofsurprises that kind of come out
later, which was great becausethat whole relationship was not
what I expected it to be or whatwas going to be.
So I thought she was a greataddition and surprise,
Jo Harkin (22:35):
Yeah, I think she's kind of the heart of that
section because at this point inthe novel he is seminal as we
now know him because he is beenforced to give up the name
Edward Earl of Warwick.
He, this is his final, well, no,not even his final
transformation.
Seminal has become quite a dark,hardened character by this
point.
He is.
Yeah, and I think Beatrice ishis, she represents this sort of
(22:58):
thread of human connection that,and hope that's, she's trying to
reach out to him and, and stophim going down a path of, of
vengeance and, and callousnessand yeah.
So she was an importantcounterbalance to him, I think
in that section.
It's, yeah.
I'm glad, I'm glad she camethrough in that way.
Brett Benner (23:15):
Having finished this, and now I'm sure you're
back to your your sci-fispeculative novel, but do you
think you'll ever go back tohistory?
Jo Harkin (23:22):
Actually, I I'm not gonna be writing sci-fi again
for probably another five years.
I'm so I've got a, a two bookcontract with my publisher in
the us.
And they would like to seeanother historical, which is
great.
So it will be the same era likea few years later, different
cast of characters.
So this time it's going to be ayoung woman in medieval London
(23:44):
and or late medieval London andshe.
It's just gonna be a completelydifferent section of society.
So it is still, Henry Thei isthe king but she's basically the
daughter of a rich merchant.
And she's spoiled.
And so she has quite anunprecedented level of freedom
as a woman at that era.
And she has just, she'sbasically full of all these.
(24:05):
Dreams of becoming a leadingdoctor or scientist and her
father's just like, yes, youcan.
Absolutely, you can do anythingyou want.
And so she kind of is almost anopposite trajectory to Lambert
Signal in that he starts with nopower and she starts thinking
she can just do anything.
And so she has to go on her ownjourney of discovering the
(24:25):
limitations of the age and herown limitations.
the plan is to send her to thecourt of Spain at the time where
you have this queen called Anala loca of Joanna the mad.
And she wasn't really mad.
She was basically takenadvantage of by the men around
her who kind of wanted to rulein her place.
So our heroine is basicallygoing to travel to Spain and go
(24:47):
on a bit of a farcical adventurethere.
So it is, yeah, it will bedifferent, but I think the humor
will, will stay the same.
Brett Benner (24:54):
That's fantastic.
What do you read?
Like, what is your go-to?
Jo Harkin (24:58):
I mean so much, but in the context of this, the,
I'll talk about the things thatlike really fed this novel.
One huge one was Lincoln in theBardo by George Saunders.
I dunno, have you read that one?
I loved it.
Yeah.
Loved it.
Well, I'm not surprised youloved it.
It's it would kind of, itactually really helped with the
writing of this one at, at thetime when I was sort of just
writing stupid jokes andthinking like, no one is going
(25:21):
to like this.
People are gonna think that thisis just, yeah, this stupid
knockoff, like, not, not mantel.
What, what even is it?
But it re I, and then I rereadLincoln in the bar because it'd
been quite a while since I readit.
And I think.
I, I'd kind of forgotten howabsurd it is and how, you know,
you've got, it's incrediblymoving and poignant.
Just beautiful.
(25:41):
But then you have this ghostwandering round with a huge
direction for most of it, andthat, that was like my kind of
like North Star, like every timeI felt lacking in confidence
that maybe I'd been tooridiculous.
I thought about this, this ghostand George Saunders and I, and
it gave me the confidence tosort of plow on and, and do
something silly of my own.
So that was such a massiveinspiration and yeah, I.
(26:05):
Hopefully, hopefully my book issort of its own its own beast,
but I think it, hopefully itshares that sort of spirit with,
with Lincoln in the Bardo ifyeah, if it's not presumptuous
to even think it.
Brett Benner (26:16):
No, no, no.
I don't think it is at all.
Okay,
Jo Harkin (26:19):
thanks.
Other writers I love, I mean, Ido love mantel Francis Buffet, I
don't know how, how well knownhe is in America.
He was really great like GoldenHill.
Do you know that one?
Brett Benner (26:31):
No, I dunno that, I dunno him.
Jo Harkin (26:32):
It, so it's a historical, but it's, it's got a
twist, which actually, do youknow what I can't even say.
It's a big spoiler.
So, but it's like a, a reallysideways history and I love
that.
And then other, other writerswho just did an experimental
take on history, like NicolaBarker was a big one.
She's, she's very funny, verylike formally inventive.
And yeah, Susanna Clark actuallywho wrote Jonathan Strange and
(26:54):
Dr.
Norell, even though that's sortof an alternate history, I
really love her style and thatsense of like other worldliness
that permeates her writing and,and that sort of, that
influenced me also, I.
Brett Benner (27:05):
Well, I just have to say the book is so fantastic.
I'm so excited for you you know,wandering into this new realm of
history, alternative history orwhatever it is.
But I.
Please people go out and get thebook.
Buy independent if you can.
And like, what a gorgeous cover.
I love this cover so much too.
I think they just did aspectacular job.
Jo Harkin (27:28):
They really did.
It is beautiful.
I'm, I'm so pleased with it.
Brett Benner (27:31):
Well, I'm really excited for you.
I'm really excited for the book,so congratulations and you know,
I hope it's a big fat hit.
Jo Harkin (27:40):
Thank you so much.
It is I'm really glad youenjoyed it and thank you for
reading it.
It's, it's a big, big guy, sowell.
Brett Benner (27:50):
No, it, but it, you know what, it's so engaging.
And that's the thing, like, Ilove, personally, I love a big
book, but if it can grab me and,you know that's the other thing
and, and it certainly does that.
So for anybody who's intimidatedby sides do not be.
Brilliant.
Which only seemed appropriatejoke for this book,
Jo Harkin (28:08):
I think.
Yeah, totally.
You really nailed it.
I think that that's
Brett Benner (28:15):
Thank you again Joe, and if you enjoyed this
conversation or otherconversations I've had with some
of your favorite authors, pleaseconsider liking and subscribing
on your podcast platform ofchoice.
Another thing that would bereally helpful if you have a
moment is give a review.
Five stars and review only helpsthe profile of my podcast grow.
(28:38):
Which is only gonna help mecontinue to bring these
conversations to you.
Thank you all so much and I willbe back next week.
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