June 6, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with author Jonathan Parks-Ramage for his novel, "It's Not The End of he World". They discuss the incident that inspired this, children in the story and in life, and the central question he asked himself while writing the book.
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https://www.jonathan-p-r.com
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https://www.instagram.com/jprampage/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner, and welcome
or welcome back to anotherepisode of Behind the Stack,
where today I am sitting downwith author Jonathan Parks
Ramage for his wild new book.
It's Not the End of the World.
A little bit about Jonathan.
Jonathan Parks Ramage.
is a novelist, playwright,screenwriter, and journalist,
his critically acclaimed debutnovel.
(00:21):
Yes, daddy was named one of thebest queer books of 2021 by
Entertainment Weekly, NBC News,the Advocate, Lambda Literary
Bustle, good Reads, and More.
He lives in Los Angeles.
Please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
(00:44):
I am so happy to have JonathanParks Ramage here today for his
new book.
It's not the end of the world,which is out this week.
Like I said to you the otherday, there is so much to unpack
with this book, butcongratulations.
Also, I wanna say to you happypride because when this is
airing this will be the firstweek of pride.
(01:04):
So, I feel like we have to grabhold of these little positive
moments wherever we can rightnow.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (01:10):
Well, we still have a pride month.
Brett Benner (01:12):
Oh my God, that's a hundred percent.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (01:13):
Yes.
Yes.
So yes, we're holding, we'reclinging.
We're clinging to pride.
Brett Benner (01:19):
Desperately, desperately, desperately.
Also, congratulations on yourdrama desk.
Nom for Outstanding book of aMusical for Big Gay Wedding.
That's so exciting.
And so incredible.
Has that just been the bestexperience?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (01:33):
It has?
Yes.
I'm flying to New York tomorrow.
I had to go to the drama desks.
Yeah, it's been great.
It's been so lovely to see.
We've gotten kind of so manynominations this theater season.
Yeah.
We're off Broadway, so weweren't up for the Tonys, but
pretty much every other awardcommittee has nominated us.
We won a couple of LucilleLTELs.
(01:53):
It's been really nice to see thebig gauge Embo have, its like
little life outside.
The initial run.
So yeah, it just feels nice tohave the theater community kind
of rallying around us.
Brett Benner (02:05):
had you, had you done theater stuff before?
How did you, how did that evencome about?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (02:10):
Well, I actually, I, went to college for
the theater, and I, which iswhere.
This college called CCMCincinnati College Conservatory
of Music.
Okay.
It's like one of the top musicaltheater conservatories.
But if you don't know musicaltheater, you're like, why the
hell did you go to school inCincinnati?
Which would be a great questionto ask.
(02:31):
Do not recommend it.
I mean, there's also lovelystuff about Cincinnati.
It's changed a lot since I'veleft, but I love theater.
I moved to New York.
I quickly decided that theaterwas.
I did not wanna be an actor.
Um,'cause I just did not havethe passion.
I did a really kind of jankyregional production of Beauty
and the Beast and I was like, Ido not love this enough to
(02:52):
continue doing Rank Dinky, rankRegional Productions of Beauty
and the Beast, while I wait formy ship to come in.
So I, and it also wasn'tcreative enough for me, but, but
doing this musical, I mean,it's, it's with people I went,
I.
Marle Mendell.
I went to college with one of mybest friends from college,
starred in it, also co-wrote themusic.
(03:12):
Philip Redmond, who co-wrote themusic, also went to college
with, and our director I went tocollege with.
Wow.
So it was like kind of thislike, almost like homecoming to
like theater in a really amazingway.
And I, I had written it as ascreenplay, initially with
Marla, my friend from college.
And we sold it to Paramount withMargo Robbie's production
(03:35):
company.
But then Marla did this, otheroff-Broadway show called
Technique, which is become a bighit and there's lots of
international productions.
And then, Margo Robbie went tosee her in that and then loved
it and was like, what are youworking on?
She's like, well, actually,we're.
Reinventing this script that wewrote, uh, and sold with you as
a movie to be a stage musical.
(03:56):
And then we got real Broadwayproducers on board, so it became
kind of like snowballed fromthere.
So it was kind of like, thisthing that was like many years
in the making, I guess.
Um, that's amazing though.
Back to my theater roots.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (04:09):
Wait, where did you grow up?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (04:10):
I grew up in.
Massachusetts Massa.
A very small town calledWhitesville, Massachusetts.
And, but then I went to aboarding school for the
performing arts and my familymoved to Berkeley, California.
But I stayed in Natick,Massachusetts for all of high
school.
'cause it was a boarding schoolfor the performing arts.
It was like gay sleepaway camp.
(04:31):
I was,
Brett Benner (04:32):
oh my god, that sounds amazing.
It's like nine months of summerstock.
And then how did you transitioninto writing?
I mean, in the back of yourhead, did you always think, oh,
I'd like to do this, or was thatalways part of you?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (04:44):
Yeah, it was always part of me going to
conservatory for being an actor.
It kind of, um, I.
I kind of put it aside for alittle bit, but in high school I
was writing a lot and I alwayswas very creative.
Um, but yeah, I had kind of justlike gay mania for becoming an
actor for a period andconservatory.
(05:05):
Just really, I just kind of likedoubled down on that.
But then once I got out ofschool.
And moved to New York.
I was also always kind ofwriting screenplays scripts with
Marla.
Even as she was doing, she did astar in many Broadway shows,
but, but we were always kind ofwriting together in New York.
Nothing was really taking off.
And then I moved out to LA andthat's when I really.
(05:29):
Really went for it.
I mean, I started working as afreelance writer, and started
out doing personal essays andfrom there kind of, Elbowed my
way into journalism and did kindof freelance, journalism, wrote
for a bunch of differentpublications and kind of learned
how to write by just writingonline.
Brett Benner (05:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (05:48):
And getting in touch with it that
way again, so that, that wasreally when I, I, I started
writing.
Nonfiction.
And then I was still writingscripts and screenplays, selling
things.
Nothing that ever got made,which is always frustrating and
kind of the troll of, of workingin Hollywood.
And then finally I was like, I,I'd been doing much more like
(06:08):
kind of long form hybridreported pieces, like personal
slash reported, like, kind oflike Joan Didion style, but like
we're talking like 8,010, likelong, long form pieces.
And publishing those.
And, and I just, I was like, Iwanna write a novel, which is a
(06:29):
crazy thing to say to yourself.
And I think when you firstdecide that you wanna do it
takes a lot of courage to belike, yes, I'm actually gonna
write a full blown novel and I'mgonna stick with it and just
pray that someone abides it andlikes it.
And, so it took, it took a whilefor the first one, but I also
got, there's this writer'sretreat called Breadloaf, which
(06:50):
is, yeah, the literary,community publishing industry
kind of descends on thisgorgeous Vermont campus.
I did breadloaf two summers in arow, and that kind of helped me
start to navigate and have ideasabout the, the publishing
industry.
It was also just like abeautiful creative community.
A fun summer, and then fromthere I found an.
(07:10):
Sold my book, my first bookyesterday.
Brett Benner (07:12):
Now?
Did you begin to write.
Yes, daddy, while you were inthat retreat, is that where it
started for you?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (07:18):
That's where I first workshopped it.
I'd been writing it before andthen I used pages from that book
to submit to Breadloaf and I gotaccepted to Breadloaf.
And over the two summers, I didtwo consecutive summers.
And so, yes, those twoconsecutive summers I,
workshopped, excerpts from YesDaddy, there.
Brett Benner (07:37):
And yes, daddy, it's such a great book as well.
Loved it about a, a young manwho gets.
Involved in quite a toxicrelationship.
Yes.
For those who haven't read ityet,
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (07:49):
the older playwrights see the theater
comes in, um, the theater
Brett Benner (07:52):
comes in and also power.
And there's actually quite a fewthemes that, bleed over into
this book as well.
But Okay.
For our, for our viewers and forour listeners, do you have kind
of a, an elevator pitch for it'snot the end of the world?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (08:06):
Yes.
If I saw you in an elevator, I'dsay this about my book.
It's not The end of the Worldfollows.
A wealthy gay couple in the year2044 in Los Angeles, and this,
wealthy gay couple refused tocancel their baby shower even as
a potentially apocalyptic event.
(08:28):
Sweeps through Los Angeles inthe first chunk of the book,
follows one member of the coupleas he's kind of on a Mrs.
D.
From hell journey, picking upthings for the party, getting
ready, but it goes horribly awrybecause again, there is this
kind of awful event that isravaging Los Angeles.
Brett Benner (08:49):
Yeah.
And it's set in the, not, toofar future.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (08:52):
Yes.
2044.
And it's not, the dystopiadepicted in 2044 is not the
result of some crazycivilization altering.
It's not some wild, crazy world.
It's a very grounded, I wouldsay, projection of where we
could be in the year 2044 basedon where we are now, which to me
(09:17):
is personally, you know, muchmore terrifying than aliens
coming in.
And
Brett Benner (09:23):
yeah, you know, I would never look at, I, I don't
look at this book and say, oh,it's speculative, it's more
prescient to me than anythingelse.
And I, I literally was like,okay.
So he's also a soothsayer.
It's interesting.
First of all, you referencedGreg Iraqi.
I.
In the book.
And it's funny because nowhere,but also now apocalypse, that
(09:43):
series he did came to mind andconservative like the absurdity
of the situation and what thesepeople are doing and kind of
that like balls to the wall.
It's so nuts.
But also, two of the things thatI, I was thinking of is that
Netflix movie don't Look up.
And also in 2023, StephenMarkley wrote this book called
The Deluge about basically, Idunno if you read it about.
(10:05):
The end of the world and how itcomes to be.
And it's written as climatefiction, but like this, there's
nothing that seems so absurd,especially in our current moment
that this book is touching on.
I think what you do and do it sowell is there is a heavy satire
(10:26):
in the book and there's thingsthat seem absurdist and
certainly.
This, uh, need that Mason, yourcentral character has for
normalcy, uh, can be absurd.
But what is actually going onaround these characters?
I don't think is absurd at all.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (10:43):
Yes, yes.
Well, that, I love hearing that.
'cause that is kind of the goalis that I'm, I'm kind of
skewing, there is an element ofsatire.
There is a heightened element.
I love the Gregor Act.
You reference, I mean, he's ahuge influence on me for sure.
I loved now apocalypse.
But there's also a groundednessas well that you're talking
about in terms of like thepolitical milieu, the climate
milieu, and, yeah, I, I, Iwanted to.
(11:08):
Kind of achieve that balance andkind of toe the line.
And to your point, Mason hasthis kind of desire for quote
unquote normalcy.
Mm-hmm.
And I think mirrors a lot ofpeople's, I mean, is a very
unsympathetic character, but Ithink, I think his desire for
normalcy is relatable,especially for what all of us
are going through.
(11:28):
Now.
I read this, Article in, was itThe Atlantic, about this phrase
called Hypernormalization, whichbasically describes the, the
effect of living throughintense, kind of horrific.
Like social change essentially.
Like it happened, you know, inRussia with Putin coming in and
(11:49):
the author argues that it's kindof happening now as all these
norms are kind of busted andwe're sitting in our houses and
staring at our phones and stillgoing about our lives.
We're not going about our livesif we're affected by this.
But having to kind of.
Having to normalize what is notnormal can be a very, it's like
(12:10):
a intense dissonance to hold.
It is for me.
Um, you know, and it's like veryodd and I, I, I, and I think
it's very insidious, so I, Ithink also that's part of the
depiction of Mason Mesa and kindof pushing that.
Experiencing something likethat, but also desperately kind
(12:30):
of cling to his privilege inwhich ultimately is.
Brett Benner (12:37):
When did you start writing this?
Like, was there a particularincident that said, oh my God,
or was there something thatstarted to make you think of the
impetus of what this is?
Or what you wanted to write?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (12:47):
Yes.
I mean, it was, was thepandemic, I mean, it was 2020 I,
I remember it was like right atthe beginning of lockdown when
everyone was still kind of like,and there was a fire in Los
Angeles.
I forget the name of it.
It, it was by the Getty.
I think I was living in LosHollywood at the time.
And, you know, during thepandemic, my only source of
(13:08):
sanity was going for walksaround my literal block because
I was going absolutely fuckingnuts.
But I would call them my sanitywalks and you know, I would just
go on a walk, just go outside ofmy goddamn house.
Um, but then when the fireshappened.
The air quality became so toxic'cause we were close enough
(13:29):
where the air quality was awfuland it was like all of a sudden
I was downloading an app thatwas telling me the air quality
every day because it was sotoxic and literally ash was just
floating in the air.
Yeah.
and all of a sudden my sanitywalks, I couldn't go on them
anymore because the air qualitywas so toxic.
And so I went insane and Istarted writing this book, and I
(13:54):
think it was, I think it wasjust a, a, a truly just a
product of my own anxiety.
And I think a lot of my book, Imean writing books for me is,
um.
Therapeutic.
So is it?
Yeah.
It's therapeutic and it's, it'sa way for me to work through
what I am working through in my,in my kind of own brain, um, and
(14:15):
putting it down on the page.
So I think that was.
A large impetus.
I was actually writing adifferent book, a different
novel completely.
I had gotten, I was doing a tonof research and getting into it
and it just, all of a sudden itjust like, it was like, did not
feel urgent to me and this kindof just swooped in and was like.
(14:35):
This is urgent.
This is what you need to write.
Um, and so that's kind of what Iwent and started
Brett Benner (14:41):
Did it always begin with Mason?
There's a central couple Masonand, and, uh, and, and Janho.
Is it Janho or Yoho?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (14:47):
Yes.
Brett Benner (14:47):
Did it always begin with them?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (14:49):
Yes, they were always there.
I mean, the early, the firststages of writing this, it was
kind of like, it's a, it's amore amorphous thing, but yes,
they were always a centralcouple.
Yes.
But it's been through manyiterations, but yes.
Yeah, and so this is, I'm socurious, wealthy gay couple who
are kind of in the cultureindustries.
Brett Benner (15:08):
And so Mike, then my question is, as, as a writer,
I'm so curious about process,especially with this, because
the book does really work as it,it's two, big sections.
Did you outline everything veryspecifically with these points?
I'm also curious because thereis so much that you're tackling
in this politically, um,socially, all of these different
aspects.
(15:28):
So I kept thinking I.
How did he uncover all this?
How did he think of thesespecific things just in terms of
governmental programs or whatwas being implemented?
Because it's also so terrifyingto me because so much of even
what you're speaking about inthis book, knowing you wrote it
a while ago and seeing what'shappening and coming to fruition
(15:49):
now, did you rewrite as thingsbegin to be become, because even
now, like look.
This administration has onlybeen in office for for six
months, project 2025, and somuch of what that implementation
is happening has just beengetting underway.
Of course, we knew about itpreviously, but.
Certainly, I don't think youknew about so much of it.
Maybe you did when you werewriting this, or did you find
(16:11):
out that you were just kept
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (16:12):
one of the co-authors of project 2025.
That's the,
Brett Benner (16:15):
that's good you, here's where it gets revealed.
Right, exactly.
Could you imagine, I mean, bigshocker.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (16:25):
Oh, no.
Honestly, it's just, I did a lotof research, people don't really
think of new ideas in terms ofhow to oppress people.
History constantly repeatsitself.
So for example, in the bookthere's something called the
anti-American Speech Committee,which is this like McCarthy.
(16:46):
Government program where theyprosecute artists for, uh,
creating anti-American work.
And you just go back in historyand you have McCarthy and you
have, you know, a governmentthat was, hell bent on
censorship.
And so it didn't feel like a bigleap.
So I would say everythingimagined in the book is
(17:08):
something also kind of like, didthe Margaret Atwood rule of
like, like everything imaginedin the book is a form of
something that's happened in thepast, essentially.
Sure.
And again, recreated for thefuture.
But I mean, if you look at kindof the evangelical movement,
these are things that they'vebeen plotting not just since,
(17:29):
you know, project 2025, butsince the beginning dawn of Man.
Yeah, I know about the dawn ofman, but certainly, um.
For decades in Americanpolitics.
And so I, I think that it, itit, that's where all the kind of
projections came from.
And again, a lot of researchinto the fbi.
(17:49):
I, how FBI has kind of targeted,you know, queer people, black
people,, any sort of group thatis, aimed at.
Protesting kind of theimpression from the state in any
way.
So, I don't know.
There's a lot, there's a lot inthere, but it was, it was, it
was research.
I mean the book to answer alsoanother question about process,
like it was more Stephen Markleythe Daily, is that his name?
(18:11):
Sorry, Stephen Markley.
Yeah, Stephen Markley.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (18:13):
Yeah.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (18:13):
The Daily, it was much, the first
draft of this was that length.
Um, okay.
Wow.
Brett Benner (18:18):
Yeah.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (18:19):
It was giving like 500 plus pages, but
what ended up getting sucked outand.
Steven doesn't quite suck itout, but I mean, God bless
whatever you wanna write about,but there was a lot of.
Research on the page.
Do you know if that makes sense?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I did allthis research, I'm gonna throw
all this detail at you to reallytry to like build out this
(18:43):
world.
And then what I found is thatpeople don't wanna read an essay
about climate change in a novel.
And all the work that I did kindof is steeped into the book and
it's actually like trust thatand less is more.
It's like if I'm reading anessay about climate change in
the middle of a book.
There was, there was a heavyeditorial period with my agent
(19:04):
before he went out with it.
That was like sucking out allthat
Brett Benner (19:07):
were DOGEing I feel like in terms of the
narrative and why it works forthis novel is because you're in
a moment that feels present,right?
Even though the date might befuture.
So much of it feels like what,you know, you're talking about
for anyone who lives in LosAngeles, landmarks, roads,
streets, places, things thatpeople are going to make and
(19:30):
easily recognized.
So, and then like there's a fewtimes like I had to look up and
be like.
Okay, this is future, but it'snot, again, not too far future,
which is what's crazy.
I wanted to read this, somethinglike, based on what you were
just talking about, that Imarked, and I love this.
So much and it felt, it feelsagain very much.
Now it's his mason found itdifficult to hold on to hope
(19:53):
He'd watched American democracycrumble over the course of his
adolescence.
By the time he reached hissenior year at risd, he'd
already witnessed years ofantiqueer and anti-trans
legislation.
He'd witnessed racistgerrymandering become
increasingly aggressive.
He'd witnessed local electionboards seized by conservative
activists successfullyoverturned legitimate election
results.
He'd witnessed the.
(20:17):
Witnessed feckless Democratsclinging to power by making
empty promises to take action.
And he'd watched as evangelicalscreated the Christo fascist
utopia of their whitesupremacist dreams.
And that was literally like forme, I was like, and there it is.
And that I was like, and here weare in this moment.
We are all Mason.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (20:37):
Yes.
I mean, again, it's not farfetched.
It's not like I had to sit theredreaming this up.
I mean, it's all kind ofhappening right now.
I mean, I, I kind of, I modeleda little bit.
American, like kind of the, thevery grounded dystopia that
America is after Russia.
I mean, it's not exactly thesame, but, but in terms of what
(20:59):
we're seeing feels familiar inthat Russia is a quote unquote
democracy where people justhappens to get elected.
And it's actually just run by.
A bunch of oligarchs and richthugs who jockey for influence
and power and anyone who resistsin a public way, um, is made an
(21:23):
example of it.
I was just curious about.
Again, Russia as an example ofwhere we could potentially be
headed in terms of our own quoteunquote democracy.
And that this illusion ofdemocracy still exists, but
there's, and there is like aquote unquote opposition party,
but it's not real and it's alljust people clinging to power
(21:44):
and not really opposing.
But when someone really doesoppose Putin, it is.
Quashed.
Brett Benner (21:50):
The other thing I do love that you do is there's
these great little references.
The only one I'm going to ruin,not even ruin, it's not even a
spoiler, because you drop themjust almost like, um, M M
treats, which is Governor,governor Chris Pratt.
That made me laugh.
So.
Loud.
I had to, I had to stop and belike, wait, what?
(22:11):
And, and that is like a hallmarkof, of you.
It's almost like just droppingthese things and, and they're so
quick.
You'd almost miss it.
There's also a great reveal inthe end, which I'm not gonna
give away, which I should haveseen coming of a character,
which I thought was sobrilliant.
To that.
And again, not speaking of thecharacter or who it is, did you
ever have a moment or was anyoneon your team, like, are you sure
(22:34):
you wanna do this?
Are you sure you want to usethis actual person in this
capacity?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (22:37):
Yes.
fiction books don't usually geta legal edit.
Um, nonfiction.
Usually always does, certainlymemoirs do.
But, but there was, with acharacter, there's a, again, a
twist at the end, which we willnot spoil, but, a real life
person.
(22:58):
Enters the narrative in thisway, um, which is like pretty
shady and so brilliant.
It's brilliant.
Oh, thank you.
But yes, At some point in theproduction process, they were
like, Hmm, we're gonna send thisto legal'cause are you sure you
want to actually name thisperson and are you accountable?
And I was like, well, it's anovel.
Like I, I think we're gonna befine.
And ultimately it was decided,yes, it would be fine.
(23:18):
It was a novel.
There's a disclaimer at the topand like every character is
fictional.
Are those real life charactersare used Fictionally or not?
You know?
So I think I.
Everything's gonna be fine.
But weirdly, I mean, I actuallydon't think that this person who
is kind of one of our currentArch villians would actually
(23:39):
object to the way they aredepicted in the book because I
think the character embodies,their political views and their
ethos and it just projects thatinto the future.
So I actually don't think theywould.
Protest their depiction.
I, I think if they were honestwith themselves, they would view
(24:00):
it as honest.
Sure, which is also me, Al alsomy argument to the lawyers, I
was like, I don't think, I don'tthink he would actually, uh,
contest anything that he saidhere.
And also I did actually have tocome up with.
Articles, quotes from him.
That point towards everythingthat is, is kind of projected
(24:22):
about him in the future is basedon things he has said, people he
supports and views, he actuallypossesses, basically I did have
to do a little research, extraresearch and say, okay.
These are all the things that Iknew he believed in, and sure
enough he does, and here theyare.
Interesting.
I don't think he would object.
Brett Benner (24:42):
If you suddenly disappear, we might know where
to look.
But that's all I'm saying.
I don't, I don't know whathappened.
He just went out for a, a walkto clear his head around the
block.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (24:54):
He was like, I wanna name some names,
honey, and throw some shade.
Brett Benner (24:59):
No.
One of your, one of thecharacters who becomes very
central in the second half ofthe book, Gabriel.
He's a young kid who is kind ofcaught up in all of this and
becomes kind of integral as thebook continues on.
I'm just so curious, I was socurious reading this because one
of the things I think you do inboth of your books are you
(25:19):
highlight in terms of bothvulnerabilities of people, um,
and.
Power and corruption.
Your, both your books kind ofdeal with the trappings and the
seduction to power and successand the potential downfall
because of it.
But also it became to me,, kindof heartfelt because of this
child you put in the midst ofall this.
(25:40):
Can you talk about him for a bitand what your mindset was and
bringing him into it?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (25:45):
Yes, yes.
Them.
Them.
Yes.
Sorry.
Them.
Thank you
Brett Benner (25:48):
for Thank you.
Thank you, thank you.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (25:50):
No, it's okay.
I mean, I think that's part of,I think that's another part that
I wanted to includeintentionally is, is just a
couple that DEC or, or not evena couple, a group of people that
decide to.
Raise their child in a genderneutral way.
Yes.
Just'cause I thought that waslike an interesting, And, and
very
Brett Benner (26:07):
now and
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (26:07):
very la Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, in thinking about if,to me it just kind of,'cause as
you mentioned, this happens inthe second half of the book.
There's kind of this huge twist.
And then the narrative kind ofturns on its head.
And then we have a child,narrator, narrator as kind of
one of the perspectives, And tome it felt like essential in a
(26:27):
book about the future, in abook, about having children to
have a child's perspective oftheir surroundings and the world
around them.
It felt like there was aninnocence there that could be
valuable to view the worldthrough, through their eyes.
And to see how they view.
(26:49):
Again, not to give too muchaway, but you know, there, there
is in the second half of thebook, a group of people trying
to radically rethink the way westructure society and live in
the world.
And so to have that viewedthrough a child's lens, I
thought would be veryinteresting.
Someone who has yet to adopttraditional.
(27:09):
Normative social scripts and itfelt like just a way, again,
essential in a book about thefuture and about, and a book
about children to then includethe, the perspective of a child,
because I also feel likechildren's dignity and
self-determination is often alsoignored.
It felt, it just, it all of asudden I, I literally, I kind of
(27:31):
finished writing the first halfof the book and then this voice
just like kind of popped into meand I was like, oh, okay.
Brett Benner (27:38):
Um, the old adage, um, be seen and not heard.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (27:43):
Yes,
Brett Benner (27:44):
exactly.
Which is
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (27:46):
not great.
Brett Benner (27:46):
Now you've been with your partner Ryan for a
while now.
Are children ever anythingyou've ever thought of or wanted
or discussed?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (27:54):
Oh yes.
I've been with my partner Ryan.
Yeah.
We've been together for like 10years.
I have zero desire to have anychildren I, which is so funny
'cause I wrote a whole bookabout it.
You're like, Jonathan, was theresomething you were working
through in your mind?
we.
Don't have a desire.
I love, like I, I feel like I, Iam the perfect candidate for gay
(28:17):
Uncle Dom.
Mm-hmm.
I have a few children that mygirlfriends have that, and I
feel like part of the fam, youknow what I mean?
Yeah.
It's like John is like embeddedin their children's imagination
and there is a lot of joy I getfrom that, but I personally.
Oh my gosh.
It just seems so stressful.
(28:39):
And I feel like also my, I thinkRyan and I both have this, for
better or for worse.
I don't know.
View of our work.
I don't know.
We tend to our work in a waywhich is like, it feels like
there's so much labor that goesinto producing the work that we
produce.
Yeah.
Also a writer that, I don'tknow, we're not, I guess we're
(29:01):
just selfish gaze.
No, no, no.
Like eventually we have to takecare of something.
He really wants us to get a dog.
I was like to get a dog or, orget a plant.
Um, yeah, I mean, I have lots ofplans and I do, I mean, I care
for my friend, like I cook allthe time.
I have dinner parties.
Like I, I love caring for otherpeople.
It's just the idea of a child,having a child fills me with,
(29:22):
uh, incredible anxiety feelslike.
Yeah.
But
Brett Benner (29:24):
I love that you know that again, because it's
something else that comes up inthe book and I thought about it.
I was going through this wholeidea of the, like the
heteronormative ideas that getthrust onto upon us, and at
first it was.
I think with gay people, it waswhen gay marriage was out and
like, should you do this and whyshould you do this?
And there was the argument oflike, we should absolutely do
this because we want to.
Or there was the argument toothat said, but why do we have to
(29:46):
conform and why do we have tosubscribe to these kind of
archaic ideas just to be acouple?
And I think.
That's happened with kids aswell as, I think, first of all,
I think a lot of people did itand it was like the new designer
bag.
we'll have a kid and, uh, but,so no, I don't think there's, I
just think it's certainly, it's,it's not for everybody, but, I'm
(30:07):
always just curious by peopleand the decisions they make in
terms of it and in terms ofthese characters because, the
desire for a child or wanting.
Or thinking you want that child.
Yes.
And and what it means.
And also like you said earlier,and of course not giving
anything away, but a childthat's raised in an environment
(30:29):
where.
They're open to make their ownparticular decisions and the
questions that surround that asto can they make all their own
decisions at that point?
What do they actually know?
How much guidance is actuallyneeded?
And, what constitutes a family?
What constitutes a parentalfigure?
Who do you go to for thosethings?
I don't know.
There's a lot of.
(30:50):
Questions that come up in thisin a lot of times in a very
hilarious and skewering way.
I mean,
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (30:56):
certainly the couple, the gay couple,
obviously their motives are, butI, I don't, I don't even know.
I mean, I wanted it to feel, I.
Their desire to have children.
I wanted that to feel genuineand genuinely grounded and
rooted in real emotion.
And yes, they get, you know,super extensive surrogacy and go
all the way over the top.
(31:17):
But I think also part of whatthe book examines is there's
this non-fiction book calledFull Surrogacy Now.
Um, which is by a feminist kindof philosopher, um, named Sophie
Lewis.
And the argument of the book is.
There are some people who arelike so anti surrogacy and she
(31:39):
argues actually that we need asociety that embraces quote
unquote full surrogacy where allchildren are cared for.
All human beings are cared forin this way, in that there is
more of an embracive communityin that anyone can have a child
and not just the wealthy, andit's like intersects with like
(32:01):
communism, socialism.
It's very interesting.
Provocative book, but I did wantto examine an unconventional
queer family.
Like kind of how you're talkingabout and, and how potentially
like family and parenting couldlook different for Yeah.
Queer people.
If, if we, if we don't adhere tokind of those, those social.
(32:24):
Script.
And marriage is also something,Ryan, I, it's so funny, I have a
ring.
We've got like engaged at onepoint and then we like met with
a wedding planner like naivelyand we were like, oh, we wanna
get married in Provincetown.
Like, and like I was like, well,how much do you think you're
spending?
And we were like, well.
$20,000 Sounds good.
And he was just like, oh, likeliterally gasped was horrified.
(32:48):
That seemed like even 20,000.
He like a lot of money to spendon a party and he was just like,
like talking about and then.
Once we kind of started tellingpeople that we were engaged, you
just enter this hurricane ofheterosexual projections.
Like,
Brett Benner (33:03):
yeah,
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (33:03):
like my mother who's like a, died in the
wool like, like secondgeneration feminist, um, all of
a sudden just became likeobsessed with marriage and like
obsessed with my wedding.
And like, I don't know, I wasjust like, wait, what?
Who, why are all these peopleturning into crazy?
And I just think that thesescripts are just so deeply
invested.
So we decided actually not toget married.
It was like, it's too expensive.
And also it was like too muchdrama and we've been together
(33:25):
for 10 years.
I mean, I think the main, yeah,reason in many cases to get
married is, is, is you know, tomerge your assets in the eyes of
the state.
But at the same time, I alsothink I.
It's beautiful to get married,and I go to weddings and I cry
all the time.
I don't know.
So it's like also like I'm notout here just being like, oh,
I'm such a queer radical.
Like, and I think that's also atension I wanted to capture in
(33:47):
the book is like, hmm, there arethese scripts and I do wanna
resist'em.
Yet at the same time, sometimesthe script works and feels good.
Sure.
So I think that it's, that'salso something that's constantly
in a state of dissonance withinme.
Brett Benner (34:05):
We didn't get married until we had kids, and
it wasn't until our kids wereeven old enough and we really
did it for the kids because aswe got into stuff, and it was a
weird thing with travelingsuddenly became a thing, and so
we were like.
We need to do this.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (34:19):
But yeah.
'cause again, there are benefitsin being rendered legible by the
state, especially as parents,which are probably essential
when you're caring for otherhuman
Brett Benner (34:29):
beings.
Yeah.
And I remember we had had thekids, we were, they were young
and I remember we weretraveling, this is before, um,
gay marriage was a nationalthing and we were traveling to
Canada.
And I remember going through.
Customs.
And it was the first time thatanything like this had happened.
And you know, you fill out theform, the declaration form, and
you go up to the customs person.
And so we filled out one formand Chip, my husband had gone up
(34:52):
first and then he said, where'syours?
And I said, oh.
We were like, oh, we'retogether.
And these are, you know, we'reall together.
And I remember this, he was socurt and he said, your state may
recognize you, but we don'tfederally go out and fill out
another form.
And so I went back and kind offilled out the form and they
were waiting, you know, theywere shuffled through.
They couldn't wait on the otherside.
They had to keep moving.
And my son was starting to cry.
And so it was the first time Ifelt this sense of, I don't know
(35:15):
what it is, betrayal.
A sense of like, wow, somethingfailed.
Yeah.
And so, but anyway, so that'swhy we did it, but.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (35:23):
Yes.
And then I mean, it, it's, it,it, and that makes obviously so
much sense.
Again, it's like for rights,it's almost like the state
creates a problem that can onlybe solved through subscription
to the state, but then even thenyou're subjected to correct.
Correct.
Brett Benner (35:43):
Yes.
Which is only being amp amped upso much more for everyone.
So in, in line with that, andyou know, I, I will say that as
much as there's parts of thisbook that like, first of all,
people are gonna laugh their assoff and, but there are also, I
think, again, going to find somuch that's horrifyingly
identifiable.
The book doesn't end, it's not adowner.
And it, I think you end it on avery kind of hopeful note.
(36:08):
So, but my question for you is.
Do you have hope?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (36:13):
Oh my God.
Um, I think that is what I wasasking myself.
Probably the central question Iwas asking myself while, while
writing this book, I think that,I think that I was searching for
hope, I think in writing this,and I found it.
(36:35):
I read a lot on anarchism, um,and anarchy kind of gets a bad
and like wrong rep, um, as beinglike, yeah, just like, fuck
everything anarchy.
I feel like there's this likething of like, it's like it's
total chaos, but in the kind oftraditional like political sense
the word.
It's a great book by Noam Tomskycalled on anarchism, which is
(36:55):
like a, this.
Also a black anarchisttradition, um, that you can read
about a lot that I did a lot ofresearch into, but it's actually
anarchism is organization.
It's basically creatingcommunity that is laterally
organized, that are smaller,that are localized, that tend to
(37:16):
everyone's needs, and it rejectskind of like a hierarch state.
And I.
You know, obviously full anarchyin the United States is, is
unrealistic at this point, but,but I think there are ways to
create community and care forthe people directly in your
(37:39):
circles, and to also makeefforts to expand your circles
to include people or supportpeople who may be experiencing
violence or discrimination.
Um.
You know, as we move into thefuture that, but I think the
answer is and has always beenregardless of horrors that
people have lived through, ishow do we create spaces for each
(38:00):
other?
How do we create communitiesthat support each other, that
exist outside of kind of theoppression of the state?
How do we resist by simply.
Forming communities where wesupport each other in the ways
that the state can't.
I think that's, it's like as thestate strips away, protections,
how do we protect each other?
Right.
So I think that actually gave mea lot of hope in reading about
(38:23):
anarchism, anarchist communitiesthat have existed throughout
time.
Um, and also the realizationthat like.
Many communities, blackcommunities, queer communities,
trans communities, I mean, havelived through horrific
oppression.
And I think it's easy for, youknow, me as a white gay man who
was born in 1984.
And yes, I went through also myown discrimination, et cetera,
(38:46):
but there are people who havelived through so much worse in
America, um, that thesuppression is nothing new.
Um, and.
Those people looking to ourhistory to see how black
community, queer community,trans community, the disabled
community have, have cometogether to kind of form
community that exists outside ofthe state and outside of
(39:08):
oppression.
And as we go back to what feelslike the 1950s.
Look at how people formedcommunity and supported each
other, um, in those moreoppressive eras.
So I think for me that was itis, is finding hope in the
research and realizing thatthroughout history, throughout
capitalism, oppression is justgoes hand in hand.
(39:31):
Um, and it does feel like we'removing towards a global.
Collapse in a way which isunique perhaps.
Um, uh, there are just now abunch of billionaires that are
basically betting against theearth, and humanity who are kind
of running things.
But even still that, I think allwe have is each other, and I
(39:53):
think that's kind of the hope Ifound at.
Brett Benner (39:57):
I'm gonna stop there because honestly, that,
that was, that was fantastic.
And I, and I'm with you ahundred percent.
And, uh.
Yeah, I don't know.
I, I, I, I no notes off towardrobe.
Jonathan, you are delightful.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (40:14):
You are delightful.
Brett Benner (40:16):
You guys, you have to get the book.
It's not the end of the world.
Also, you can go to Jonathan'sInstagram page.
He'll have his tour schedule upas well, so you could see him in
person if you can byindependent.
But get the book.
It's, it's, it's really greatand congratulations on a
terrific novel.
Um, I'm really, really, reallyexcited for you.
(40:37):
It's a.
Thank you again, Jonathan.
If you enjoyed this conversationand other conversations that
I've been having, pleaseconsider liking and subscribing,
and what I would reallyappreciate is if you have the
time and could leave a review,it's something that really helps
podcasts like this gethighlighted on the different
(40:59):
platforms.
In the meantime, I'll see youall next week with another
episode of Behind the Stack.
Thanks everybody.
Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner, and welcome
or welcome back to anotherepisode of Behind the Stack,
where today I am sitting downwith author Jonathan Parks
Ramage for his wild new book.
It's Not the End of the World.
A little bit about Jonathan.
Jonathan Parks Ramage.
is a novelist, playwright,screenwriter, and journalist,
his critically acclaimed debutnovel.
(00:21):
Yes, daddy was named one of thebest queer books of 2021 by
Entertainment Weekly, NBC News,the Advocate, Lambda Literary
Bustle, good Reads, and More.
He lives in Los Angeles.
Please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
(00:44):
I am so happy to have JonathanParks Ramage here today for his
new book.
It's not the end of the world,which is out this week.
Like I said to you the otherday, there is so much to unpack
with this book, butcongratulations.
Also, I wanna say to you happypride because when this is
airing this will be the firstweek of pride.
(01:04):
So, I feel like we have to grabhold of these little positive
moments wherever we can rightnow.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (01:10):
Well, we still have a pride month.
Brett Benner (01:12):
Oh my God, that's a hundred percent.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (01:13):
Yes.
Yes.
So yes, we're holding, we'reclinging.
We're clinging to pride.
Brett Benner (01:19):
Desperately, desperately, desperately.
Also, congratulations on yourdrama desk.
Nom for Outstanding book of aMusical for Big Gay Wedding.
That's so exciting.
And so incredible.
Has that just been the bestexperience?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (01:33):
It has?
Yes.
I'm flying to New York tomorrow.
I had to go to the drama desks.
Yeah, it's been great.
It's been so lovely to see.
We've gotten kind of so manynominations this theater season.
Yeah.
We're off Broadway, so weweren't up for the Tonys, but
pretty much every other awardcommittee has nominated us.
We won a couple of LucilleLTELs.
(01:53):
It's been really nice to see thebig gauge Embo have, its like
little life outside.
The initial run.
So yeah, it just feels nice tohave the theater community kind
of rallying around us.
Brett Benner (02:05):
had you, had you done theater stuff before?
How did you, how did that evencome about?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (02:10):
Well, I actually, I, went to college for
the theater, and I, which iswhere.
This college called CCMCincinnati College Conservatory
of Music.
Okay.
It's like one of the top musicaltheater conservatories.
But if you don't know musicaltheater, you're like, why the
hell did you go to school inCincinnati?
Which would be a great questionto ask.
(02:31):
Do not recommend it.
I mean, there's also lovelystuff about Cincinnati.
It's changed a lot since I'veleft, but I love theater.
I moved to New York.
I quickly decided that theaterwas.
I did not wanna be an actor.
Um,'cause I just did not havethe passion.
I did a really kind of jankyregional production of Beauty
and the Beast and I was like, Ido not love this enough to
(02:52):
continue doing Rank Dinky, rankRegional Productions of Beauty
and the Beast, while I wait formy ship to come in.
So I, and it also wasn'tcreative enough for me, but, but
doing this musical, I mean,it's, it's with people I went,
I.
Marle Mendell.
I went to college with one of mybest friends from college,
starred in it, also co-wrote themusic.
(03:12):
Philip Redmond, who co-wrote themusic, also went to college
with, and our director I went tocollege with.
Wow.
So it was like kind of thislike, almost like homecoming to
like theater in a really amazingway.
And I, I had written it as ascreenplay, initially with
Marla, my friend from college.
And we sold it to Paramount withMargo Robbie's production
(03:35):
company.
But then Marla did this, otheroff-Broadway show called
Technique, which is become a bighit and there's lots of
international productions.
And then, Margo Robbie went tosee her in that and then loved
it and was like, what are youworking on?
She's like, well, actually,we're.
Reinventing this script that wewrote, uh, and sold with you as
a movie to be a stage musical.
(03:56):
And then we got real Broadwayproducers on board, so it became
kind of like snowballed fromthere.
So it was kind of like, thisthing that was like many years
in the making, I guess.
Um, that's amazing though.
Back to my theater roots.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (04:09):
Wait, where did you grow up?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (04:10):
I grew up in.
Massachusetts Massa.
A very small town calledWhitesville, Massachusetts.
And, but then I went to aboarding school for the
performing arts and my familymoved to Berkeley, California.
But I stayed in Natick,Massachusetts for all of high
school.
'cause it was a boarding schoolfor the performing arts.
It was like gay sleepaway camp.
(04:31):
I was,
Brett Benner (04:32):
oh my god, that sounds amazing.
It's like nine months of summerstock.
And then how did you transitioninto writing?
I mean, in the back of yourhead, did you always think, oh,
I'd like to do this, or was thatalways part of you?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (04:44):
Yeah, it was always part of me going to
conservatory for being an actor.
It kind of, um, I.
I kind of put it aside for alittle bit, but in high school I
was writing a lot and I alwayswas very creative.
Um, but yeah, I had kind of justlike gay mania for becoming an
actor for a period andconservatory.
(05:05):
Just really, I just kind of likedoubled down on that.
But then once I got out ofschool.
And moved to New York.
I was also always kind ofwriting screenplays scripts with
Marla.
Even as she was doing, she did astar in many Broadway shows,
but, but we were always kind ofwriting together in New York.
Nothing was really taking off.
And then I moved out to LA andthat's when I really.
(05:29):
Really went for it.
I mean, I started working as afreelance writer, and started
out doing personal essays andfrom there kind of, Elbowed my
way into journalism and did kindof freelance, journalism, wrote
for a bunch of differentpublications and kind of learned
how to write by just writingonline.
Brett Benner (05:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (05:48):
And getting in touch with it that
way again, so that, that wasreally when I, I, I started
writing.
Nonfiction.
And then I was still writingscripts and screenplays, selling
things.
Nothing that ever got made,which is always frustrating and
kind of the troll of, of workingin Hollywood.
And then finally I was like, I,I'd been doing much more like
(06:08):
kind of long form hybridreported pieces, like personal
slash reported, like, kind oflike Joan Didion style, but like
we're talking like 8,010, likelong, long form pieces.
And publishing those.
And, and I just, I was like, Iwanna write a novel, which is a
(06:29):
crazy thing to say to yourself.
And I think when you firstdecide that you wanna do it
takes a lot of courage to belike, yes, I'm actually gonna
write a full blown novel and I'mgonna stick with it and just
pray that someone abides it andlikes it.
And, so it took, it took a whilefor the first one, but I also
got, there's this writer'sretreat called Breadloaf, which
(06:50):
is, yeah, the literary,community publishing industry
kind of descends on thisgorgeous Vermont campus.
I did breadloaf two summers in arow, and that kind of helped me
start to navigate and have ideasabout the, the publishing
industry.
It was also just like abeautiful creative community.
A fun summer, and then fromthere I found an.
(07:10):
Sold my book, my first bookyesterday.
Brett Benner (07:12):
Now?
Did you begin to write.
Yes, daddy, while you were inthat retreat, is that where it
started for you?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (07:18):
That's where I first workshopped it.
I'd been writing it before andthen I used pages from that book
to submit to Breadloaf and I gotaccepted to Breadloaf.
And over the two summers, I didtwo consecutive summers.
And so, yes, those twoconsecutive summers I,
workshopped, excerpts from YesDaddy, there.
Brett Benner (07:37):
And yes, daddy, it's such a great book as well.
Loved it about a, a young manwho gets.
Involved in quite a toxicrelationship.
Yes.
For those who haven't read ityet,
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (07:49):
the older playwrights see the theater
comes in, um, the theater
Brett Benner (07:52):
comes in and also power.
And there's actually quite a fewthemes that, bleed over into
this book as well.
But Okay.
For our, for our viewers and forour listeners, do you have kind
of a, an elevator pitch for it'snot the end of the world?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (08:06):
Yes.
If I saw you in an elevator, I'dsay this about my book.
It's not The end of the Worldfollows.
A wealthy gay couple in the year2044 in Los Angeles, and this,
wealthy gay couple refused tocancel their baby shower even as
a potentially apocalyptic event.
(08:28):
Sweeps through Los Angeles inthe first chunk of the book,
follows one member of the coupleas he's kind of on a Mrs.
D.
From hell journey, picking upthings for the party, getting
ready, but it goes horribly awrybecause again, there is this
kind of awful event that isravaging Los Angeles.
Brett Benner (08:49):
Yeah.
And it's set in the, not, toofar future.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (08:52):
Yes.
2044.
And it's not, the dystopiadepicted in 2044 is not the
result of some crazycivilization altering.
It's not some wild, crazy world.
It's a very grounded, I wouldsay, projection of where we
could be in the year 2044 basedon where we are now, which to me
(09:17):
is personally, you know, muchmore terrifying than aliens
coming in.
And
Brett Benner (09:23):
yeah, you know, I would never look at, I, I don't
look at this book and say, oh,it's speculative, it's more
prescient to me than anythingelse.
And I, I literally was like,okay.
So he's also a soothsayer.
It's interesting.
First of all, you referencedGreg Iraqi.
I.
In the book.
And it's funny because nowhere,but also now apocalypse, that
(09:43):
series he did came to mind andconservative like the absurdity
of the situation and what thesepeople are doing and kind of
that like balls to the wall.
It's so nuts.
But also, two of the things thatI, I was thinking of is that
Netflix movie don't Look up.
And also in 2023, StephenMarkley wrote this book called
The Deluge about basically, Idunno if you read it about.
(10:05):
The end of the world and how itcomes to be.
And it's written as climatefiction, but like this, there's
nothing that seems so absurd,especially in our current moment
that this book is touching on.
I think what you do and do it sowell is there is a heavy satire
(10:26):
in the book and there's thingsthat seem absurdist and
certainly.
This, uh, need that Mason, yourcentral character has for
normalcy, uh, can be absurd.
But what is actually going onaround these characters?
I don't think is absurd at all.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (10:43):
Yes, yes.
Well, that, I love hearing that.
'cause that is kind of the goalis that I'm, I'm kind of
skewing, there is an element ofsatire.
There is a heightened element.
I love the Gregor Act.
You reference, I mean, he's ahuge influence on me for sure.
I loved now apocalypse.
But there's also a groundednessas well that you're talking
about in terms of like thepolitical milieu, the climate
milieu, and, yeah, I, I, Iwanted to.
(11:08):
Kind of achieve that balance andkind of toe the line.
And to your point, Mason hasthis kind of desire for quote
unquote normalcy.
Mm-hmm.
And I think mirrors a lot ofpeople's, I mean, is a very
unsympathetic character, but Ithink, I think his desire for
normalcy is relatable,especially for what all of us
are going through.
(11:28):
Now.
I read this, Article in, was itThe Atlantic, about this phrase
called Hypernormalization, whichbasically describes the, the
effect of living throughintense, kind of horrific.
Like social change essentially.
Like it happened, you know, inRussia with Putin coming in and
(11:49):
the author argues that it's kindof happening now as all these
norms are kind of busted andwe're sitting in our houses and
staring at our phones and stillgoing about our lives.
We're not going about our livesif we're affected by this.
But having to kind of.
Having to normalize what is notnormal can be a very, it's like
(12:10):
a intense dissonance to hold.
It is for me.
Um, you know, and it's like veryodd and I, I, I, and I think
it's very insidious, so I, Ithink also that's part of the
depiction of Mason Mesa and kindof pushing that.
Experiencing something likethat, but also desperately kind
(12:30):
of cling to his privilege inwhich ultimately is.
Brett Benner (12:37):
When did you start writing this?
Like, was there a particularincident that said, oh my God,
or was there something thatstarted to make you think of the
impetus of what this is?
Or what you wanted to write?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (12:47):
Yes.
I mean, it was, was thepandemic, I mean, it was 2020 I,
I remember it was like right atthe beginning of lockdown when
everyone was still kind of like,and there was a fire in Los
Angeles.
I forget the name of it.
It, it was by the Getty.
I think I was living in LosHollywood at the time.
And, you know, during thepandemic, my only source of
(13:08):
sanity was going for walksaround my literal block because
I was going absolutely fuckingnuts.
But I would call them my sanitywalks and you know, I would just
go on a walk, just go outside ofmy goddamn house.
Um, but then when the fireshappened.
The air quality became so toxic'cause we were close enough
(13:29):
where the air quality was awfuland it was like all of a sudden
I was downloading an app thatwas telling me the air quality
every day because it was sotoxic and literally ash was just
floating in the air.
Yeah.
and all of a sudden my sanitywalks, I couldn't go on them
anymore because the air qualitywas so toxic.
And so I went insane and Istarted writing this book, and I
(13:54):
think it was, I think it wasjust a, a, a truly just a
product of my own anxiety.
And I think a lot of my book, Imean writing books for me is,
um.
Therapeutic.
So is it?
Yeah.
It's therapeutic and it's, it'sa way for me to work through
what I am working through in my,in my kind of own brain, um, and
(14:15):
putting it down on the page.
So I think that was.
A large impetus.
I was actually writing adifferent book, a different
novel completely.
I had gotten, I was doing a tonof research and getting into it
and it just, all of a sudden itjust like, it was like, did not
feel urgent to me and this kindof just swooped in and was like.
(14:35):
This is urgent.
This is what you need to write.
Um, and so that's kind of what Iwent and started
Brett Benner (14:41):
Did it always begin with Mason?
There's a central couple Masonand, and, uh, and, and Janho.
Is it Janho or Yoho?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (14:47):
Yes.
Brett Benner (14:47):
Did it always begin with them?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (14:49):
Yes, they were always there.
I mean, the early, the firststages of writing this, it was
kind of like, it's a, it's amore amorphous thing, but yes,
they were always a centralcouple.
Yes.
But it's been through manyiterations, but yes.
Yeah, and so this is, I'm socurious, wealthy gay couple who
are kind of in the cultureindustries.
Brett Benner (15:08):
And so Mike, then my question is, as, as a writer,
I'm so curious about process,especially with this, because
the book does really work as it,it's two, big sections.
Did you outline everything veryspecifically with these points?
I'm also curious because thereis so much that you're tackling
in this politically, um,socially, all of these different
aspects.
(15:28):
So I kept thinking I.
How did he uncover all this?
How did he think of thesespecific things just in terms of
governmental programs or whatwas being implemented?
Because it's also so terrifyingto me because so much of even
what you're speaking about inthis book, knowing you wrote it
a while ago and seeing what'shappening and coming to fruition
(15:49):
now, did you rewrite as thingsbegin to be become, because even
now, like look.
This administration has onlybeen in office for for six
months, project 2025, and somuch of what that implementation
is happening has just beengetting underway.
Of course, we knew about itpreviously, but.
Certainly, I don't think youknew about so much of it.
Maybe you did when you werewriting this, or did you find
(16:11):
out that you were just kept
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (16:12):
one of the co-authors of project 2025.
That's the,
Brett Benner (16:15):
that's good you, here's where it gets revealed.
Right, exactly.
Could you imagine, I mean, bigshocker.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (16:25):
Oh, no.
Honestly, it's just, I did a lotof research, people don't really
think of new ideas in terms ofhow to oppress people.
History constantly repeatsitself.
So for example, in the bookthere's something called the
anti-American Speech Committee,which is this like McCarthy.
(16:46):
Government program where theyprosecute artists for, uh,
creating anti-American work.
And you just go back in historyand you have McCarthy and you
have, you know, a governmentthat was, hell bent on
censorship.
And so it didn't feel like a bigleap.
So I would say everythingimagined in the book is
(17:08):
something also kind of like, didthe Margaret Atwood rule of
like, like everything imaginedin the book is a form of
something that's happened in thepast, essentially.
Sure.
And again, recreated for thefuture.
But I mean, if you look at kindof the evangelical movement,
these are things that they'vebeen plotting not just since,
(17:29):
you know, project 2025, butsince the beginning dawn of Man.
Yeah, I know about the dawn ofman, but certainly, um.
For decades in Americanpolitics.
And so I, I think that it, itit, that's where all the kind of
projections came from.
And again, a lot of researchinto the fbi.
(17:49):
I, how FBI has kind of targeted,you know, queer people, black
people,, any sort of group thatis, aimed at.
Protesting kind of theimpression from the state in any
way.
So, I don't know.
There's a lot, there's a lot inthere, but it was, it was, it
was research.
I mean the book to answer alsoanother question about process,
like it was more Stephen Markleythe Daily, is that his name?
(18:11):
Sorry, Stephen Markley.
Yeah, Stephen Markley.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (18:13):
Yeah.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (18:13):
The Daily, it was much, the first
draft of this was that length.
Um, okay.
Wow.
Brett Benner (18:18):
Yeah.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (18:19):
It was giving like 500 plus pages, but
what ended up getting sucked outand.
Steven doesn't quite suck itout, but I mean, God bless
whatever you wanna write about,but there was a lot of.
Research on the page.
Do you know if that makes sense?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I did allthis research, I'm gonna throw
all this detail at you to reallytry to like build out this
(18:43):
world.
And then what I found is thatpeople don't wanna read an essay
about climate change in a novel.
And all the work that I did kindof is steeped into the book and
it's actually like trust thatand less is more.
It's like if I'm reading anessay about climate change in
the middle of a book.
There was, there was a heavyeditorial period with my agent
(19:04):
before he went out with it.
That was like sucking out allthat
Brett Benner (19:07):
were DOGEing I feel like in terms of the
narrative and why it works forthis novel is because you're in
a moment that feels present,right?
Even though the date might befuture.
So much of it feels like what,you know, you're talking about
for anyone who lives in LosAngeles, landmarks, roads,
streets, places, things thatpeople are going to make and
(19:30):
easily recognized.
So, and then like there's a fewtimes like I had to look up and
be like.
Okay, this is future, but it'snot, again, not too far future,
which is what's crazy.
I wanted to read this, somethinglike, based on what you were
just talking about, that Imarked, and I love this.
So much and it felt, it feelsagain very much.
Now it's his mason found itdifficult to hold on to hope
(19:53):
He'd watched American democracycrumble over the course of his
adolescence.
By the time he reached hissenior year at risd, he'd
already witnessed years ofantiqueer and anti-trans
legislation.
He'd witnessed racistgerrymandering become
increasingly aggressive.
He'd witnessed local electionboards seized by conservative
activists successfullyoverturned legitimate election
results.
He'd witnessed the.
(20:17):
Witnessed feckless Democratsclinging to power by making
empty promises to take action.
And he'd watched as evangelicalscreated the Christo fascist
utopia of their whitesupremacist dreams.
And that was literally like forme, I was like, and there it is.
And that I was like, and here weare in this moment.
We are all Mason.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (20:37):
Yes.
I mean, again, it's not farfetched.
It's not like I had to sit theredreaming this up.
I mean, it's all kind ofhappening right now.
I mean, I, I kind of, I modeleda little bit.
American, like kind of the, thevery grounded dystopia that
America is after Russia.
I mean, it's not exactly thesame, but, but in terms of what
(20:59):
we're seeing feels familiar inthat Russia is a quote unquote
democracy where people justhappens to get elected.
And it's actually just run by.
A bunch of oligarchs and richthugs who jockey for influence
and power and anyone who resistsin a public way, um, is made an
(21:23):
example of it.
I was just curious about.
Again, Russia as an example ofwhere we could potentially be
headed in terms of our own quoteunquote democracy.
And that this illusion ofdemocracy still exists, but
there's, and there is like aquote unquote opposition party,
but it's not real and it's alljust people clinging to power
(21:44):
and not really opposing.
But when someone really doesoppose Putin, it is.
Quashed.
Brett Benner (21:50):
The other thing I do love that you do is there's
these great little references.
The only one I'm going to ruin,not even ruin, it's not even a
spoiler, because you drop themjust almost like, um, M M
treats, which is Governor,governor Chris Pratt.
That made me laugh.
So.
Loud.
I had to, I had to stop and belike, wait, what?
(22:11):
And, and that is like a hallmarkof, of you.
It's almost like just droppingthese things and, and they're so
quick.
You'd almost miss it.
There's also a great reveal inthe end, which I'm not gonna
give away, which I should haveseen coming of a character,
which I thought was sobrilliant.
To that.
And again, not speaking of thecharacter or who it is, did you
ever have a moment or was anyoneon your team, like, are you sure
(22:34):
you wanna do this?
Are you sure you want to usethis actual person in this
capacity?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (22:37):
Yes.
fiction books don't usually geta legal edit.
Um, nonfiction.
Usually always does, certainlymemoirs do.
But, but there was, with acharacter, there's a, again, a
twist at the end, which we willnot spoil, but, a real life
person.
(22:58):
Enters the narrative in thisway, um, which is like pretty
shady and so brilliant.
It's brilliant.
Oh, thank you.
But yes, At some point in theproduction process, they were
like, Hmm, we're gonna send thisto legal'cause are you sure you
want to actually name thisperson and are you accountable?
And I was like, well, it's anovel.
Like I, I think we're gonna befine.
And ultimately it was decided,yes, it would be fine.
(23:18):
It was a novel.
There's a disclaimer at the topand like every character is
fictional.
Are those real life charactersare used Fictionally or not?
You know?
So I think I.
Everything's gonna be fine.
But weirdly, I mean, I actuallydon't think that this person who
is kind of one of our currentArch villians would actually
(23:39):
object to the way they aredepicted in the book because I
think the character embodies,their political views and their
ethos and it just projects thatinto the future.
So I actually don't think theywould.
Protest their depiction.
I, I think if they were honestwith themselves, they would view
(24:00):
it as honest.
Sure, which is also me, Al alsomy argument to the lawyers, I
was like, I don't think, I don'tthink he would actually, uh,
contest anything that he saidhere.
And also I did actually have tocome up with.
Articles, quotes from him.
That point towards everythingthat is, is kind of projected
(24:22):
about him in the future is basedon things he has said, people he
supports and views, he actuallypossesses, basically I did have
to do a little research, extraresearch and say, okay.
These are all the things that Iknew he believed in, and sure
enough he does, and here theyare.
Interesting.
I don't think he would object.
Brett Benner (24:42):
If you suddenly disappear, we might know where
to look.
But that's all I'm saying.
I don't, I don't know whathappened.
He just went out for a, a walkto clear his head around the
block.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (24:54):
He was like, I wanna name some names,
honey, and throw some shade.
Brett Benner (24:59):
No.
One of your, one of thecharacters who becomes very
central in the second half ofthe book, Gabriel.
He's a young kid who is kind ofcaught up in all of this and
becomes kind of integral as thebook continues on.
I'm just so curious, I was socurious reading this because one
of the things I think you do inboth of your books are you
(25:19):
highlight in terms of bothvulnerabilities of people, um,
and.
Power and corruption.
Your, both your books kind ofdeal with the trappings and the
seduction to power and successand the potential downfall
because of it.
But also it became to me,, kindof heartfelt because of this
child you put in the midst ofall this.
(25:40):
Can you talk about him for a bitand what your mindset was and
bringing him into it?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (25:45):
Yes, yes.
Them.
Them.
Yes.
Sorry.
Them.
Thank you
Brett Benner (25:48):
for Thank you.
Thank you, thank you.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (25:50):
No, it's okay.
I mean, I think that's part of,I think that's another part that
I wanted to includeintentionally is, is just a
couple that DEC or, or not evena couple, a group of people that
decide to.
Raise their child in a genderneutral way.
Yes.
Just'cause I thought that waslike an interesting, And, and
very
Brett Benner (26:07):
now and
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (26:07):
very la Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, in thinking about if,to me it just kind of,'cause as
you mentioned, this happens inthe second half of the book.
There's kind of this huge twist.
And then the narrative kind ofturns on its head.
And then we have a child,narrator, narrator as kind of
one of the perspectives, And tome it felt like essential in a
(26:27):
book about the future, in abook, about having children to
have a child's perspective oftheir surroundings and the world
around them.
It felt like there was aninnocence there that could be
valuable to view the worldthrough, through their eyes.
And to see how they view.
(26:49):
Again, not to give too muchaway, but you know, there, there
is in the second half of thebook, a group of people trying
to radically rethink the way westructure society and live in
the world.
And so to have that viewedthrough a child's lens, I
thought would be veryinteresting.
Someone who has yet to adopttraditional.
(27:09):
Normative social scripts and itfelt like just a way, again,
essential in a book about thefuture and about, and a book
about children to then includethe, the perspective of a child,
because I also feel likechildren's dignity and
self-determination is often alsoignored.
It felt, it just, it all of asudden I, I literally, I kind of
(27:31):
finished writing the first halfof the book and then this voice
just like kind of popped into meand I was like, oh, okay.
Brett Benner (27:38):
Um, the old adage, um, be seen and not heard.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (27:43):
Yes,
Brett Benner (27:44):
exactly.
Which is
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (27:46):
not great.
Brett Benner (27:46):
Now you've been with your partner Ryan for a
while now.
Are children ever anythingyou've ever thought of or wanted
or discussed?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (27:54):
Oh yes.
I've been with my partner Ryan.
Yeah.
We've been together for like 10years.
I have zero desire to have anychildren I, which is so funny
'cause I wrote a whole bookabout it.
You're like, Jonathan, was theresomething you were working
through in your mind?
we.
Don't have a desire.
I love, like I, I feel like I, Iam the perfect candidate for gay
(28:17):
Uncle Dom.
Mm-hmm.
I have a few children that mygirlfriends have that, and I
feel like part of the fam, youknow what I mean?
Yeah.
It's like John is like embeddedin their children's imagination
and there is a lot of joy I getfrom that, but I personally.
Oh my gosh.
It just seems so stressful.
(28:39):
And I feel like also my, I thinkRyan and I both have this, for
better or for worse.
I don't know.
View of our work.
I don't know.
We tend to our work in a waywhich is like, it feels like
there's so much labor that goesinto producing the work that we
produce.
Yeah.
Also a writer that, I don'tknow, we're not, I guess we're
(29:01):
just selfish gaze.
No, no, no.
Like eventually we have to takecare of something.
He really wants us to get a dog.
I was like to get a dog or, orget a plant.
Um, yeah, I mean, I have lots ofplans and I do, I mean, I care
for my friend, like I cook allthe time.
I have dinner parties.
Like I, I love caring for otherpeople.
It's just the idea of a child,having a child fills me with,
(29:22):
uh, incredible anxiety feelslike.
Yeah.
But
Brett Benner (29:24):
I love that you know that again, because it's
something else that comes up inthe book and I thought about it.
I was going through this wholeidea of the, like the
heteronormative ideas that getthrust onto upon us, and at
first it was.
I think with gay people, it waswhen gay marriage was out and
like, should you do this and whyshould you do this?
And there was the argument oflike, we should absolutely do
this because we want to.
Or there was the argument toothat said, but why do we have to
(29:46):
conform and why do we have tosubscribe to these kind of
archaic ideas just to be acouple?
And I think.
That's happened with kids aswell as, I think, first of all,
I think a lot of people did itand it was like the new designer
bag.
we'll have a kid and, uh, but,so no, I don't think there's, I
just think it's certainly, it's,it's not for everybody, but, I'm
(30:07):
always just curious by peopleand the decisions they make in
terms of it and in terms ofthese characters because, the
desire for a child or wanting.
Or thinking you want that child.
Yes.
And and what it means.
And also like you said earlier,and of course not giving
anything away, but a childthat's raised in an environment
(30:29):
where.
They're open to make their ownparticular decisions and the
questions that surround that asto can they make all their own
decisions at that point?
What do they actually know?
How much guidance is actuallyneeded?
And, what constitutes a family?
What constitutes a parentalfigure?
Who do you go to for thosethings?
I don't know.
There's a lot of.
(30:50):
Questions that come up in thisin a lot of times in a very
hilarious and skewering way.
I mean,
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (30:56):
certainly the couple, the gay couple,
obviously their motives are, butI, I don't, I don't even know.
I mean, I wanted it to feel, I.
Their desire to have children.
I wanted that to feel genuineand genuinely grounded and
rooted in real emotion.
And yes, they get, you know,super extensive surrogacy and go
all the way over the top.
(31:17):
But I think also part of whatthe book examines is there's
this non-fiction book calledFull Surrogacy Now.
Um, which is by a feminist kindof philosopher, um, named Sophie
Lewis.
And the argument of the book is.
There are some people who arelike so anti surrogacy and she
(31:39):
argues actually that we need asociety that embraces quote
unquote full surrogacy where allchildren are cared for.
All human beings are cared forin this way, in that there is
more of an embracive communityin that anyone can have a child
and not just the wealthy, andit's like intersects with like
(32:01):
communism, socialism.
It's very interesting.
Provocative book, but I did wantto examine an unconventional
queer family.
Like kind of how you're talkingabout and, and how potentially
like family and parenting couldlook different for Yeah.
Queer people.
If, if we, if we don't adhere tokind of those, those social.
(32:24):
Script.
And marriage is also something,Ryan, I, it's so funny, I have a
ring.
We've got like engaged at onepoint and then we like met with
a wedding planner like naivelyand we were like, oh, we wanna
get married in Provincetown.
Like, and like I was like, well,how much do you think you're
spending?
And we were like, well.
$20,000 Sounds good.
And he was just like, oh, likeliterally gasped was horrified.
(32:48):
That seemed like even 20,000.
He like a lot of money to spendon a party and he was just like,
like talking about and then.
Once we kind of started tellingpeople that we were engaged, you
just enter this hurricane ofheterosexual projections.
Like,
Brett Benner (33:03):
yeah,
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (33:03):
like my mother who's like a, died in the
wool like, like secondgeneration feminist, um, all of
a sudden just became likeobsessed with marriage and like
obsessed with my wedding.
And like, I don't know, I wasjust like, wait, what?
Who, why are all these peopleturning into crazy?
And I just think that thesescripts are just so deeply
invested.
So we decided actually not toget married.
It was like, it's too expensive.
And also it was like too muchdrama and we've been together
(33:25):
for 10 years.
I mean, I think the main, yeah,reason in many cases to get
married is, is, is you know, tomerge your assets in the eyes of
the state.
But at the same time, I alsothink I.
It's beautiful to get married,and I go to weddings and I cry
all the time.
I don't know.
So it's like also like I'm notout here just being like, oh,
I'm such a queer radical.
Like, and I think that's also atension I wanted to capture in
(33:47):
the book is like, hmm, there arethese scripts and I do wanna
resist'em.
Yet at the same time, sometimesthe script works and feels good.
Sure.
So I think that it's, that'salso something that's constantly
in a state of dissonance withinme.
Brett Benner (34:05):
We didn't get married until we had kids, and
it wasn't until our kids wereeven old enough and we really
did it for the kids because aswe got into stuff, and it was a
weird thing with travelingsuddenly became a thing, and so
we were like.
We need to do this.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (34:19):
But yeah.
'cause again, there are benefitsin being rendered legible by the
state, especially as parents,which are probably essential
when you're caring for otherhuman
Brett Benner (34:29):
beings.
Yeah.
And I remember we had had thekids, we were, they were young
and I remember we weretraveling, this is before, um,
gay marriage was a nationalthing and we were traveling to
Canada.
And I remember going through.
Customs.
And it was the first time thatanything like this had happened.
And you know, you fill out theform, the declaration form, and
you go up to the customs person.
And so we filled out one formand Chip, my husband had gone up
(34:52):
first and then he said, where'syours?
And I said, oh.
We were like, oh, we'retogether.
And these are, you know, we'reall together.
And I remember this, he was socurt and he said, your state may
recognize you, but we don'tfederally go out and fill out
another form.
And so I went back and kind offilled out the form and they
were waiting, you know, theywere shuffled through.
They couldn't wait on the otherside.
They had to keep moving.
And my son was starting to cry.
And so it was the first time Ifelt this sense of, I don't know
(35:15):
what it is, betrayal.
A sense of like, wow, somethingfailed.
Yeah.
And so, but anyway, so that'swhy we did it, but.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (35:23):
Yes.
And then I mean, it, it's, it,it, and that makes obviously so
much sense.
Again, it's like for rights,it's almost like the state
creates a problem that can onlybe solved through subscription
to the state, but then even thenyou're subjected to correct.
Correct.
Brett Benner (35:43):
Yes.
Which is only being amp amped upso much more for everyone.
So in, in line with that, andyou know, I, I will say that as
much as there's parts of thisbook that like, first of all,
people are gonna laugh their assoff and, but there are also, I
think, again, going to find somuch that's horrifyingly
identifiable.
The book doesn't end, it's not adowner.
And it, I think you end it on avery kind of hopeful note.
(36:08):
So, but my question for you is.
Do you have hope?
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (36:13):
Oh my God.
Um, I think that is what I wasasking myself.
Probably the central question Iwas asking myself while, while
writing this book, I think that,I think that I was searching for
hope, I think in writing this,and I found it.
(36:35):
I read a lot on anarchism, um,and anarchy kind of gets a bad
and like wrong rep, um, as beinglike, yeah, just like, fuck
everything anarchy.
I feel like there's this likething of like, it's like it's
total chaos, but in the kind oftraditional like political sense
the word.
It's a great book by Noam Tomskycalled on anarchism, which is
(36:55):
like a, this.
Also a black anarchisttradition, um, that you can read
about a lot that I did a lot ofresearch into, but it's actually
anarchism is organization.
It's basically creatingcommunity that is laterally
organized, that are smaller,that are localized, that tend to
(37:16):
everyone's needs, and it rejectskind of like a hierarch state.
And I.
You know, obviously full anarchyin the United States is, is
unrealistic at this point, but,but I think there are ways to
create community and care forthe people directly in your
(37:39):
circles, and to also makeefforts to expand your circles
to include people or supportpeople who may be experiencing
violence or discrimination.
Um.
You know, as we move into thefuture that, but I think the
answer is and has always beenregardless of horrors that
people have lived through, ishow do we create spaces for each
(38:00):
other?
How do we create communitiesthat support each other, that
exist outside of kind of theoppression of the state?
How do we resist by simply.
Forming communities where wesupport each other in the ways
that the state can't.
I think that's, it's like as thestate strips away, protections,
how do we protect each other?
Right.
So I think that actually gave mea lot of hope in reading about
(38:23):
anarchism, anarchist communitiesthat have existed throughout
time.
Um, and also the realizationthat like.
Many communities, blackcommunities, queer communities,
trans communities, I mean, havelived through horrific
oppression.
And I think it's easy for, youknow, me as a white gay man who
was born in 1984.
And yes, I went through also myown discrimination, et cetera,
(38:46):
but there are people who havelived through so much worse in
America, um, that thesuppression is nothing new.
Um, and.
Those people looking to ourhistory to see how black
community, queer community,trans community, the disabled
community have, have cometogether to kind of form
community that exists outside ofthe state and outside of
(39:08):
oppression.
And as we go back to what feelslike the 1950s.
Look at how people formedcommunity and supported each
other, um, in those moreoppressive eras.
So I think for me that was itis, is finding hope in the
research and realizing thatthroughout history, throughout
capitalism, oppression is justgoes hand in hand.
(39:31):
Um, and it does feel like we'removing towards a global.
Collapse in a way which isunique perhaps.
Um, uh, there are just now abunch of billionaires that are
basically betting against theearth, and humanity who are kind
of running things.
But even still that, I think allwe have is each other, and I
(39:53):
think that's kind of the hope Ifound at.
Brett Benner (39:57):
I'm gonna stop there because honestly, that,
that was, that was fantastic.
And I, and I'm with you ahundred percent.
And, uh.
Yeah, I don't know.
I, I, I, I no notes off towardrobe.
Jonathan, you are delightful.
Jonathan Parks-Ramage (40:14):
You are delightful.
Brett Benner (40:16):
You guys, you have to get the book.
It's not the end of the world.
Also, you can go to Jonathan'sInstagram page.
He'll have his tour schedule upas well, so you could see him in
person if you can byindependent.
But get the book.
It's, it's, it's really greatand congratulations on a
terrific novel.
Um, I'm really, really, reallyexcited for you.
(40:37):
It's a.
Thank you again, Jonathan.
If you enjoyed this conversationand other conversations that
I've been having, pleaseconsider liking and subscribing,
and what I would reallyappreciate is if you have the
time and could leave a review,it's something that really helps
podcasts like this gethighlighted on the different
(40:59):
platforms.
In the meantime, I'll see youall next week with another
episode of Behind the Stack.
Thanks everybody.
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