March 25, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with author Kristen Arnett to discuss her new book, "Stop Me If You've Heard This One". They talk about clowns of course, the great state of Florida, but also following a non traditional writing path that can still be as equally if not more rewarding than a traditional route.
Kristen's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/kristen__arnett/
Kristen's substack:
https://kristenarnett.substack.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everybody, it's Brett and welcome or
(00:01):
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack.
Hope you all are having afantastic week so far.
By the time this airs, theseverance finale will have
already happened and there'll bea lot more chatter about what's
not happening on the whiteLotus.
There are a couple of books thatI wanted to bring up that are
being released today.
(00:22):
The first is Paul Rudnick.
What is Wrong With You?
The wonderful Paul Rudnick.
This is a comedic novel about agroup of what seems like,
disparate individuals, but theyall kind of have relationships
with each other who all cometogether to go to the wedding of
the year at an exclusive event.
So that's out today.
Also about today is CollumMcCann's new book Twist, which
(00:45):
is simply fantastic.
this is something that Iactually listened to on audio,
and it, it really, it workedgreat on audio and, Collum
McCann reads it, and he's, he'sfantastic.
So if you're an audio bookperson, definitely check that
out.
I'm actually going to get a hardcopy of it because I loved it so
much.
Also, out today for you thrillerpeople out there, the lovely
(01:08):
Ashley Winstead, her new book.
This book Will bury me, comesout about a group of amateur
sleuths who hunt for an elusivekiller, while the world watches.
And then the one other bookthat's coming out today that I'm
intrigued by, and it's abeautiful cover which none of
you I know can see at thismoment, but it says, from the
(01:29):
New York Times bestsellingauthor of the Cloisters comes an
electrifying thriller about anopulent family retreat to Italy
that's shattered by theresurfacing of a decades old
crime.
book's title is Salt Water, andit's by Kathy So.
That looks really fun and like areally great book to get for the
(01:49):
beach.
So anyway, those are some of thebooks that are out today.
Now onto today's guest, I wasreally excited to sit down with
writer Kristin Arnett, whose newbook Stop me if you heard this
one came out last week.
She's one of those people and Italk about it in our
conversation, who I just find soinfectious on social media and
watching her in conversation.
(02:11):
So I was really looking forwardto sitting down and having this
conversation and she did notdisappoint.
So a little bit about.
Kristen, she is the New YorkTimes bestselling author of the
novels with teeth and mostlydead things.
She has twice been a finalistfor a Lambda Literary Award, and
she lives in Orlando, Florida.
(02:34):
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
Okay.
I have my coffee.
I'm good to go.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
I was talking about your book onmy on my YouTube page a few
weeks ago.
'cause I had just started it andI was talking about things I was
reading for, for, for February.
(02:56):
And you are so interesting to mebecause you're one of those
people, I have a feeling that somany people feel like they know
you probably without actuallyknowing you.
You have one of those kind ofpersonalities.
And I was saying on my YouTube,I have never talked to you.
I've never met you.
I've never even interacted withyou on social media, and yet I
was like, but I feel like wewould be friends.
Kristen Arnett (03:17):
I love that.
I feel like we'd be friends.
We're friends now.
Brett Benner (03:20):
I mean, and I and I, and I feel like you're kind
of one of those people thatprobably engender that and other
people that they probably arelike, well.
Actually she's, she's my bestfriend also because it's like, I
loved in your afterwards you'relike, I have so many friends,
and you'd listen.
I loved that so much.
So, anyway, so there's nopressure at all, but I just
needed to tell you that.
(03:41):
That's really nice.
all that to say, I'm, I'mthrilled that you're here.
I really loved your book.
But it's so terrific.
Both your covers are so muchfun.
The UK cover is great as well.
They're really wonderful covers.
So I just wanted to talk alittle bit about you for a
moment before we actually gotinto the book.
So you were born in Florida,right?
You were born and bred, correct?
Kristen Arnett (04:02):
Yeah, generation
Brett Benner (04:02):
wow.
Okay.
So, and then you grew up inquite an evangelical home,
correct?
Kristen Arnett (04:07):
Yes, I did.
My father, my family is like a.
Southern Baptist yeah.
So it's a very specific, kind oflike conservative, evangelical
upbringing for sure.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (04:18):
Did, did you have siblings?
Kristen Arnett (04:19):
I have.
I'm the oldest of three, so it'smyself and then my brother who's
two years younger than me and mysister, who's like eight and a
half years younger than me.
Brett Benner (04:28):
Now, I know you're estranged, I think, from your
parents, but do you have arelationship with your siblings?
Kristen Arnett (04:33):
I have a relationship with my sister.
Actually she's also queer.
She just got married.
I, I think she's like, she'ssaying queer now.
First she was saying bisexual.
She just got married.
I love her partner.
He's so lovely.
We hosted her, like a receptionin our backyard here at my
house.
And it was actually really nicebecause growing up we, like
(04:53):
eight and a half years is kindof like a gap.
And I had room with her growingup.
So it's like we were not theclosest growing up, but now that
we're adults it's been nicebecause yeah, she's basically
the only person I have contactwith for my family.
Brett Benner (05:09):
So, okay, so then jumping ahead.
You had a son and so you wereworking as a librarian right?
To, to support yourself and makeends meet.
so tell me about that and movingfrom that, how did the writing
start?
Kristen Arnett (05:24):
Yeah, I mean the writing like has, was always
kind of happening in thebackground.
I think I just never consideredmyself to be a writer.
I think I do that thing thatlike plenty of us do, where we
have enough going on in ourlives and then we are like, oh,
well I, I don't feel like Ideserve to call myself a writer.
So I was, but I also was verybusy.
I had my son, I was working fulltime.
(05:45):
I.
Was started gonna school atnight.
So I always say like I had avery like non-traditional kind
of like path through educationand that's something I really
like to talk about when I'mtalking about writing,
especially with young writersbecause I think there's this
idea that like, there's onesingle path to like be a
creative person.
And that's obviously not thecase'cause it definitely wasn't
(06:07):
the case for me.
I was like.
Yeah, I was going to school atnight and then I was writing in
my free time which was verysmall amounts of free time.
So I was writing like, you know,early in the morning when I'd
get up and have to like open thelibrary in like pockets of time,
like at night, like when like myson was asleep and I would be
like, still kind of buzzing froma very full day.
(06:28):
And also stressed out'cause Ihad no money and being scared
about finances.
So those things are like, I feellike I was so productive in
those years.
I kind of look like back on itnow and anytime I feel like I'm
busy, like quote unquote now,I'm like, well, are you really
that busy?
Because think about like all thethings you used to have to do
all the time.
But yeah, it was one of thosethings where I was like, I'm
(06:48):
just gonna do it.
So I did my undergrad that wayand then I'm gonna go ahead and
do my master's in libraryscience the same kind of way at
night.
Mm-hmm.
So I was still like working inthe library.
I was also.
Then I was really starting tolike I was writing essays.
I was applying for workshopsbecause I was like, I can't do
an MFA.
That was one of the choices Imade where I was like, after I
(07:10):
finished my undergrad, I.
Really wanted to maybe do an MFAand I was like, this isn't
financially responsible to dowith a, a child.
I didn't wanna uproot him.
I was always very serious aboutwanting to make sure that he had
everything he needed and thathe, I wanted him to stay in the
same school and keep the samefriends.
it was very important for me, tofeel like I was providing him
with a sense of stability.
(07:31):
So I was like, I can't uproothim and drag him to like some
program I'm going to somewhere.
Like that's ridiculous.
So I was like, okay, I can't dothat, but what can I do?
So that I feel I'm getting thatkind of like writing.
Assistance and support that Ineed.
And one of the things I waslike, well, I can DIY, anything,
like I'm, I'm from Orlando.
Mm-hmm.
(07:51):
Like, like, I'm like, I can do,I can do anything I need to do.
So I was like, okay, I'm goingto really start working.
I'm going to have a daily kindof ritual of reading and
writing.
I'm going to start applying forthese workshops.
So I applied for Lambda, whichis the LGBTQ plus.
Mm-hmm.
Workshop.
And I got into that workshop andI remember being literally
(08:11):
flabbergasted.
I was like, I have publishednothing.
I don't have anything.
And I got to that workshop andit was a literal life changer.
I met the faculty, but also itwas the first time I've been
around so many different kindsof queer people who were all,
making work.
I left that workshop withlifelong friendships.
Like Tommy Pico was there when Iwas there and he officiated my
wedding this last year.
(08:32):
There's just like people thatare in my life, like forever now
that I made that are like writerfriends.
And I was like, oh, it's soenriching I don't need to have
an MFA, I think there'sabsolutely nothing wrong, like
it's great to get an MFA, but Iwas like, I couldn't do it, but
I can have these things andthey're gonna serve in the same
kind of way where I'm gettingthe support and the kind of
camaraderie and the sharing ofwork and that stuff was so
(08:54):
important to me.
So I started doing that.
I applied every year and I, Ivery luckily, every summer after
that, got into a workshop.
So I would like take my timefrom work where I'd have these
like two weeks saved up and I'mlike, okay, I'm taking this one
week and I'm going to a workshopI went to Tin house after that
and I was like, I'm treatingthis really like bootcamp, MFA,
I went to every lecture.
I wrote notes.
Every time I was a workshop, Itook notes.
(09:15):
I was like, I'm gonna treat thisso seriously.
And then after I would leave, Iwould have this huge spurt of
creativity where I'd just belike working nonstop because it
felt like I was so like full up,like full of the brim of like
lots of good things.
So I, from there, like atenhouse, that's where I found
my agent.
They have these like agent meetand greets and I ended up
meeting an agent that was rightfor me.
And then Tenhouse in the.
(09:35):
Publishing my first novel too.
So it just kinda all built fromthese spaces where I was like,
I'm gonna make opportunitieshappen even if I feel like
opportunities can come in anykind of form.
So I was like, it doesn't haveto be this.
Like I went to an MFA and I hada faculty and I had a cohort.
It can be like, I'm going to aworkshop and I'm gonna find an
agent and I'm gonna make ithappen and I'm gonna write the
whole time.
I just was like busting, assconstantly, I feel.
Brett Benner (09:58):
So most of these workshops,'cause I'm just, I'm
being not familiar with them,they last a week or two weeks.
Is that how they normally go?
Kristen Arnett (10:04):
Yeah.
And some of'em are differenttoo.
So I did like the ones I endedup doing where I did Lambda,
which was wonderful.
I did Tin House like three yearsin a row.
And I also did Kenyon Kenyo nWriters Workshop and the Lambda
and Tenhouse are.
Those are interesting in thatyou show up with work that gets
workshopped that you've alreadywritten.
(10:24):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You're looking for feedback and so you sit with
like your, your group that'sthere in your workshop and
everybody kind of gives youfeedback or you get help from
not only the instructor from,but from other people in
workshop.
And then they have Adjacentthings going on, like there's
like panels with differentwriters who were there.
There's lectures from differentauthors.
There's like editors things.
So if you're looking to, maybeyou're trying to submit to
(10:44):
journals or you're trying to getwork published, like an essay or
a short story, you can hear fromeditors.
It's a lot of like informationthat is hard to find if you're
on your own.
But Kenyon is a workshop that'slike incredibly generative.
So that was like a greatworkshop for me.
It's actually where I startedthe genesis of my first novel,
mostly Dead Things, was I was atthat generative workshop where
(11:05):
every day we were writingsomething new inside of a
workshop space and I was like,this is incredible.
I love it.
We get kind of prompts from a,our workshop leader and then
like we'd go and we'd work andwe'd also get like kind of craft
intensives with talking aboutperspective and narrative art.
And different things like that.
And I was like, this is allstuff that's so cool that I've
just been kind of just fumblingaround with or feeling out on my
(11:25):
own.
And so to hear here's theprocess or here's some reading,
extra reading you can do to likefigure out more if you're
interested in or like how youcan fiddle around with structure
inside of like shorts fiction oressays or poetry.
These are all usually likearound a week.
And some of them cost money.
Some of them you can get likescholarships too, which they're
like even far between.
I would save up like every year,any of like my fun money or
(11:46):
like, not that I had that muchgone but if I got like any money
back for taxes when I had to domy horrible taxes every year,
that was literally earmarked forlike I was like, okay, I'm gonna
take my days off.
I'm gonna take this money andI'm gonna go to workshop.
Because I was like, I'm takingthis as seriously, like it's a
heart attack.
I'm gonna be so serious aboutthis.
And I also just got so much joyfrom it.
(12:06):
So some of it too, I askedmyself even if like this doesn't
result in an agent or it doesn'tresult in a book deal, is this
meaningful for me?
And the answer to that was like,absolutely yes.
Because I felt like the bestversion of myself being a writer
and being surrounded by othercreatives and talking about work
and talking about books andtalking about structure and
craft.
And it was just the most fun.
And so this is obviously whatI'm supposed to be doing.
(12:28):
I mean, which is, that's
Brett Benner (12:29):
amazing.
Kristen Arnett (12:29):
Away from library work.
'cause I love library work too.
Those are just like twodisparate things that also
manage to touch each other.
Brett Benner (12:35):
Well, it's like you're filling your tank, you
know, you're, and you're sofilling that side of yourself.
Alright.
So for your latest book, do youhave an elevator pitch?
Kristen Arnett (12:45):
It's like one of those things where I'm like
right away it's a very specifickind of story Lesbian, but like,
fuck boy, birthday party clownin central Florida.
Makes friends with a much oldermagician.
For, and in order to advance hercareer and like erotic high
hijinks ensue and a lot ofdiscovery about like art and
capitalism and like the cultureof living inside of central
(13:08):
Florida.
Brett Benner (13:08):
We have, talk about where did this idea come
from?
From you?
What was the genesis?
Where did Cherry come from?
I.
Go.
Kristen Arnett (13:16):
It's one of those things where the process
for writing this book, like ittook, I took more time to think
about it than I did to actuallywrite it.
Like the writing of this bookwas very fast.
But I truly thought about theconcept for a whole year because
I was like, I don't want to fuckthis up.
Like this is such an importantproject to me.
Sometimes I feel like formyself, I know when something's
(13:39):
a novel because it feels so big,my brain barely wants to touch
it or hold it.
I'm like, oh, that's an excitingidea.
Like that's an exciting idea.
It was like that for mostly deadthings.
It was like that for my secondnovel with teeth, which was
this.
I got this idea of a thwarted,child abduction, and I was like,
Ugh.
this is exciting to start from.
But for this one with a clown, Iwas like.
Funny birthday party clown.
(14:00):
And some of it too is the bookis not about me.
I mean, I had so much funwriting it.
But I think a lot of the humoror ideas about humor and comedy
that are in there, likesomething like that come from
questions I've thought aboutbefore, like past and also too
like a.
I get a lot because you'reright, like when you said
earlier, like, people follow meon social media and have like
(14:20):
maybe an idea about who I am orlike, and I also think too, I'm
pretty upfront about who I am.
So kind of what you see is whatyou get.
I am like who I am on theinternet, but I've had people
before like read my work and belike, oh, I thought this would
be funny.
Like, you're so funny online.
Like they're so, you guys make ajoke.
Then I'm kind of like.
Do you think a 300 page book isgonna be like 140 character
(14:41):
tweet?
Is that what you're likeequating those things to and so
I kind of was like, ha ha, wellif you want a clown, I'll give
you a clown, I'll go give yousomething funny.
And then it kind of became athing where I wanna write a
really, really funny book.
I wanna write a book and itstarted to take shape in my mind
and I'm like, okay, a clown,like somebody who's gonna
perform for a captive audience.
Somebody who's like their solepurpose is to entertain in this
(15:02):
kind of way or do performanceand it's also kind of drag.
So I was like, there's a lothappening here where I thought
about it the more I was like,this is really interesting to
me.
It also is I'm from centralFlorida and I'm always trying to
write about Central Florida, andI was like, so much of like what
people.
Think about where I live it's aplace where people travel to, as
a tourist destination, but theyalso think it's tacky.
(15:24):
So they have preconceived ideasabout what counts as art there,
right?
Like, so people love to come toOrlando and be like, oh, I've
been to Orlando.
I'm like, no, you went to DisneyWorld, you didn't come to this
place.
And also now you have ideasabout what you think art is from
being here.
You think that you have anunderstanding.
So the clown for me became a wayto kind of be like hierarchies
(15:45):
in terms of like,'cause even inperformance culture there's
ideas about like what counts asgood art versus bad art.
And so I was like, this isreally exciting to me to think
about.
And then the shape kind oforganically came to me as I was
beginning to think about it alittle.
'cause I don't outline.
That gets really boring for meand I.
I've discovered that if I sitdown and try and act like I'm
(16:05):
gonna outline, then when I sitdown to write, I'll go in the
complete opposite direction.
So it eventually became, eachchapter was kind of its own bit
its own joke.
And these jokes all sit togetherto form maybe a set.
And so this is the clown set forthe most part, except for that
like chapter in the middlethat's like.
Magicians act.
'cause that needs to be its ownstructure that needs to be the
(16:25):
magician's voice.
But it truly became this isgoing to be about what is,
what's the cost of making art?
Like what's the cost of makingart, and especially art that
people you think is reallyimportant, that like fuels you,
but other people maybe don'tvalue.
Or have a preconceived ideaabout what that art is that
you're actually trying to make.
And maybe it's looking down onit.
So it, it turned into somethingwhere I was like, this is very
(16:46):
much a, a central Florida book.
It's very Orlando book.
And it's very much about theentertainment industry inside
of.
Central Florida.
And it also was just so much funto write.
Like every day I sat down tolike, work on that book was a
genuine pleasure.
It's the most fun I've ever hadworking on a project.
When I got and I wrote it soquickly, I sat down and it took
(17:07):
me over a year to think aboutit, but when I sat down to write
it, I got it done in like threeand a half months I wrote that.
Wow.
And the draft, as it is, ispretty much the book.
Like it's pretty much Wow.
How I wrote it.
And I felt like,'cause I let it,I let it like kind of.
Steep long enough in my brain,maybe, you know?
Yeah.
Sit there and I got to thinkabout it.
And it worked.
And it worked.
Brett Benner (17:25):
And.
When you begin to formulate thisidea of this clown and who she
was and what type of clown, I'mjust so curious, were there
people that you talked to interms of your research?
Did people emerge that you'relike, okay, this is closer to
what I see her as versus this,because it's also to be a party
clown is so specific as well.
I mean, there, there's such aninteresting thing to me about.
(17:46):
Somebody who is in this point ofher life where she's, she's 28
years old, trying to get it,figure it together.
A lot of things could seemseemingly like shit.
And then you're also having togo and get it up for a bunch of
kids and make balloon animals.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Kristen Arnett (17:59):
So we knew right away that this was the kind of
clown.
That I wanted her to be.
I'll also be completely honest,my favorite thing about doing
research is whenever I get intoresearch and I discover there's
a lot more beneath the surface,like
mm,
maybe like an iceberg, like where I think it's
this one thing at the top, butthen when I go below I'm like,
oh, there's a lot more here.
And so researching clowns andclowning was a lot like this.
(18:21):
'cause I thought I had an ideaabout,'cause I was like, I'm
doing birthday party clown.
I'm doing like this kind ofspecific clowning.
But then I was like, the more Idid research, I want her to be.
A professional, at least in herown mind.
She's a professional, so she'sgonna know a lot about like the
mechanics of humor, the aspectsof like physical comedy.
I want her to have a grasp oflike history of clowning.
(18:45):
And it's one of those things toowhere maybe that doesn't
necessarily have to come outverbatim her saying something on
the page, but I wanna do enoughresearch that it feels embedded
into her.
So if I do need to give like onelittle sentence like I did like.
History of clowning and likedifferent kinds of clowning.
There was so much to dig into.
I had to stop myself.
'cause I think that's somethingthat writers do also, where we
will start like.
(19:05):
Doing research to the detrimentof actually sitting down and
typing out the work.
So I was like, okay, I can't
Brett Benner (19:11):
You're wormhole, you're clown wormhole.
Kristen Arnett (19:13):
Exactly.
So I was like, okay, so I spentlike a lot of time watching a
lot of videos because so much ofit is this is an extremely.
Physical book.
'cause a lot of clowning isphysical act.
Mm-hmm.
So I wanna see like how bodiesmove, how clowns move when
they're performing.
I wanna see like application ofgrease paint.
I wanna see tutorial videos andI've watched a lot of tutorial
(19:33):
videos on the art of the PrattFall.
So, oh.
Like yeah.
So you'd get these like clownswithout their makeup on, sitting
and talking about and here's whythis is important or how you
would do this, and why themovement of the body here and
they're describing in this kindof way where it's almost like a
physics lesson and also here'swhy?
Why it's might be funny for anaudience and here's what you can
(19:53):
do so you don't hurt yourself.
So it's like actually this kindof thing.
Brett Benner (19:57):
Mm.
Kristen Arnett (19:57):
And then that same person would have on their
gear and then perform like thepratfall.
So that's two kind of sides.
I was like, this is fascinating.
So it's wow.
A lot of time like kind ofwatching things and most of the
clowns that I watched in thesekinds of videos were like, I was
like, I want performance partyclowns because that's the kind
of clown that she wants to be.
(20:18):
But then I also I looked at likeadjacent, kind of circus clowns
because there's a lot ofsimilarities in touch between
them.
Like one, one talks and onedoesn't.
Right?
You've got like VO one has avoice and is a very specific and
one is like, I read about this alittle in the book, but like
one's like, kind of like groupbased, right?
Like the clown?
Yeah.
Media they're all kind of.
Touching and like tangential toeach other.
(20:38):
So I was like watching that.
I'm like, okay, what's thedifference between these and
like, who I wanna write?
And then I also kind of likeCherry's, like I'm not a standup
comedian, but I think in herhead she kind of is, she's her
own best audience, so,
Brett Benner (20:49):
yeah.
Well that's what the interestingthing was.
I was finding so manycomparisons too, and I, and I
was almost gonna ask you thatwhen, when you were doing in
construction, I, there was apoint that I was like, it's so
interesting, like I wonder whyshe chose clowning versus
standup because there's such aparallel and in terms of that
trying to be funny, but youknow, also so many standups are
(21:09):
just so miserable.
By nature, which is what they'repulling on, frankly, to do their
material.
And we forget, you know, youwatch them on stage and you're
like, oh my God, they're sofunny and they're so sharp and
they're so quick, and at thesame time, they've got
disastrous personal lives andthey're just miserable people.
And admittedly they'll tell youthat.
(21:30):
Yeah.
So.
And she's not a miserable personby any stretch of the
imagination.
Cherry to me, she's thriving.
She's trying very hard Yeah.
To do the best she can in thecircumstances that she's in.
You know what I mean?
Kristen Arnett (21:42):
Yes.
I also think too it was reallyimportant to me because I think
that, right.
That's a great question.
I think in her own mind, she'sher.
She's the funniest person in theroom all the time.
And I was like, but so much ofclowning for her is putting on a
persona.
Yeah.
So the funny, she gets to befunny but not herself.
So she doesn't have to like belike, here's personal
information about me in order tobe funny.
(22:03):
Right.
Because I think she's reallyguarded with the kind of stuff
that's happened with her mom andlike things with her brother.
And so being a clown means shegets to be funny, but people
don't get to have access to whoshe actually is as a person.
And that's a line that happensbecause standup uses a lot of
Personal, like Sure, a
Brett Benner (22:19):
hundred percent.
Yeah.
Well, and I also do, because shedoes, she has a very complicated
relationship with her mother whowas also a lesbian, which was,
this whole thing was sofascinating.
And of course I'm not gonna getinto any spoilers of the book,
but there is this element Ikept.
Thinking about because she'slost her brother.
Her brother has died, who waskind of the light of her
(22:39):
mother's life and also the kindof naturally this, the center of
attention naturally.
Really funny.
Yeah.
So I kept thinking, how much isshe.
Really trying to get through hermother's indifference.
Really striving to be seen byher mother.
Yeah.
Who refuses to even call herCherry.
Right.
She calls her Cheryl.
Yeah.
Her, her, her given name.
(23:00):
So I kept thinking and how manypeople who are performers are
really trying to be seen in onecapacity or another.
Kristen Arnett (23:07):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (23:07):
I think it's really, I think you're
Kristen Arnett (23:08):
right.
I think that's a lot of, it canbe a lot of like performance and
stuff too.
And I.
I wanted to,'cause it's a fineline.
'cause it's a, it's a firstperson, right?
This book works best in myopinion as a very voicey first
person, somebody next to youtelling you like a joke, like
right to you.
So I really wanted her to bevery first person.
But that means sometimes thatyou are allowed to be what does
(23:30):
cherry understand about herselfand what does she not see?
Right?
Like, what is she like able tolike, mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
What, what kind of information does she actually
is she willing to like, engagewith and what stuff will she not
let herself think about and someof that stuff is her, for myself
was thinking about herrelationship with her mother.
Like how much is she willing toadmit to herself about what she
does for a living and how likeher relationship with her mother
(23:53):
has maybe informed some of thechoices that she's made.
that's always fun for me'cause Ilove like the unreliability a
little bit, like just a touch ofunreliability of being like,
'cause that's so human to me.
Like, we all have these likereasonings and thoughts about
like, why we choose to dothings.
And it's possible that a lot ofthe time, like the things we're
telling ourselves aren'tnecessarily a hundred percent of
why we make any kind of choicebecause you know, we're not we
(24:15):
we're not able to see with anykind of like level of clarity.
'cause we are biased in our ownparticular lived experience.
Brett Benner (24:23):
Sure.
And also just.
Let's be honest.
The career to say, well, I'm aclown.
You know what I mean?
Just, just to lead with that.
Because even, and, and even forpeople to say, well, I'm an
actor, you know, it'simmediately like, what have I
seen you in?
But if you say, I'm a clown,what that does and what that
says, that alone is funny rightthere.
You know what I mean?
And because inevitably you seethe reaction of every person
(24:46):
trying to be like.
Oh great.
So what, where like, you know,where like, are you a member of
a circus?
Kristen Arnett (24:54):
It's really funny.
And then it became a thing'causethat was so funny to me.
Like sitting and like beinglike, how does this sit fit
inside of like a novel, right?
Like, how can this be used askind of like a narrative tool
moving through here?
Mm-hmm.
Like
what would it be like, right.
Going through life and beinglike, this is my art.
I care about it very much.
And then like, be dating.
Be meeting friends, trying toget work and then having to have
conversations about this.
(25:16):
You know, the clown in thecorner of the room, you're like,
this is who I am and this iswhat I do.
And then also it became a veryfascinating thing to me because
like clown in popular culture isdivisive, right?
Like I had to be.
So like people have real phobiasabout,
Brett Benner (25:30):
oh, huge.
Kristen Arnett (25:32):
And so, and for like, good reason like Stephen
King and I love, I'm a StephenKing reader, so I'm just like, I
know this like the zeitgeist oflike the clown and it, and you
know how clowns sit in horror.
Like if you like a SpiritHalloween store, you go in,
probably the first thing that'sgonna scream at you is some kind
of clown, right?
You know, big teeth.
So I was like, okay, you know,like what does it mean then to
be really wanting to dosomething where you wanna
(25:53):
entertain people, you think it'sfunny and it's your art and it
is such a trigger for somepeople that they run screaming
from a room or perhaps likereact violently towards you.
But I was like, okay, right.
Something that can sit in heretoo.
So it was.
Really interesting to like kindof delve into that and think
about it.
Brett Benner (26:10):
Well it's funny 'cause I Googled day before
yesterday.
I was just looking at it.
I was like, clowns in Florida.
'cause I was expecting thiswhole thing.
And the first thing that comesup is that creepy story about
that man who was going aroundFlorida.
Like the clown would just standthere, I think, with the
balloon.
Yep.
And I remember when that cameout and I was like, and I'm not
usually freaked out by clowns,but that one, and I think they
even did a documentary about it.
(26:31):
They did, yeah.
But I was like.
Well, here we go.
This all tracks, all of it.
Which brings me I gotta veer offher for a moment because I have
to talk about your setting.
Okay.
Because I have to say Florida,and I was almost thinking, I was
like, Kristen, if I was thinkingabout, I, if I said to you, I'm
thinking about maybe moving toFlorida, what would your pitch
(26:53):
be?
Oh, because,
and as, and like, and, and bearing in mind, like
as a queer person and maybe asa, like, you know, I have a
family, but what would you say?
Like yeah, the reasons for, forit.
Because you're a huge advocatefor your state.
Kristen Arnett (27:07):
Yes.
I always have to say like, I'mlike unofficial brand
ambassador.
Yeah, from Central Florida likethe welcoming committee, like
maybe if you like show up at theairport there, I am.
Like ready to take you offsomewhere.
Brett Benner (27:18):
Right.
Kristen Arnett (27:18):
I think that first of all specifically,
central Florida is way morequeer than people think.
Mm-hmm.
One of those things is that weare a hospitality hub.
Like we're a tourist destinationfor a lot of entertainment and a
lot of queer people are inentertainment.
Right?
Like, it's like music, dance.
Theater, the arts.
(27:38):
Like that's not straight people.
Hello Disney.
Yeah, that's plenty gay people.
That's lots of gay people.
So when we have, we have like alot of entertainment stuff here
and like.
Queer spaces and things to doand like, so like nightlife for
sure, right?
Bars and things like that.
But also just a ton ofopportunities to do things with
(28:00):
families and with kids anddifferent things.
It's also a space that's like,Florida's gorgeous.
We have crazy weather, but likehonestly, climate change is real
and so does everywhere.
So it's like you're not gonnalive anywhere at this point.
Now, where there're not is, isit Some kind of like, there's
horrible, horrible wildfires allthrough like California.
(28:20):
You know, hurricane went up andit went in through Asheville,
North Carolina.
Know, it's
Brett Benner (28:24):
pick your, pick your place.
I mean, I really think at thispoint it's really just Ohio and
Pennsylvania.
Maybe.
Kristen Arnett (28:29):
Yeah, maybe.
Maybe for now.
Fingers crossed, right?
It's like there's thingseverywhere and so that's the
thing.
It's like Florida.
Has this reputation because ofthe way it's been like portrayed
specifically in the media forone.
Right?
And some of that is like oursunshine laws, which means
unlike other places, as soon assomething wacky or weird or like
(28:50):
a Florida man thing happenshere, the news gets to
immediately put that on.
Whereas other places, there's abuffer in between where it
doesn't immediately get, so thesame kind of shit is happening
other places.
It just
gets
immediately put into the news cycle here.
That's one.
The other thing is, is we have.
Horrible government, but also Iwould say, right, so does
America now.
So that's its own thing.
(29:11):
But we have gorgeousopportunities to do things with
the nature that like you cannotget anywhere else.
Like literally this spring youcould go down the road to look
at hundreds of manatees justswimming in the springs.
And that's free to do.
That's something you can like goand do this kind of stuff.
We have the best food.
(29:32):
My wife is such a foodie.
She used to work for Eater NewYork.
Brett Benner (29:36):
Oh wow.
Kristen Arnett (29:36):
Yeah.
So she moved down here and sheis like, now she's like
evangelizing to everybody.
She's like, the food scene hereis incredible.
We have Michelin star places andthese aren't places necessarily
out at the parks.
It's small, local places thatare literally down the street
that you can go and eat, thebest meal of your life here.
So great food.
We have great entertainment.
We have beautiful, gorgeousweather.
We have like all kinds ofoutdoor stuff.
(29:57):
You can do nightlife stuff, youcan do stuff with families.
it's like an all inclusiveplace.
And for right now anyway,Orlando's a blue hub, like we're
a blue spot in a red state.
So, yeah.
Anyway, any, if anybody needsany further like encouragement,
I'm always trying to get peopleto be here that are cool and
clear.
Brett Benner (30:13):
At the very least.
You've, you've sold me on theOrlando part of it, so.
Yeah, it's weird.
It just, Florida to me isalways, you know, besides the
Taylor Swift song.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Yes.
But we all watch it every fouryears at election time to see,
you know, the, the, the madnessthat is Florida and, and the
kind of crazy diversity and howthings swing and how, how varied
(30:35):
it is.
But like many places, it justseems to, you can speak to this,
it just seems to have increasedover the years and, and it's,
it's changed over the years.
Yeah.
I saw DeSantis, DeSantis was onyesterday talking about wanting
to create his own dogedepartment for the state of
Florida, talking about cleaningup the corruption that's been
existing for so many years.
I.
I watched a woman yesterday andsaid, Republicans have been in
(30:55):
charge for the last 24.
So there you go.
Kristen Arnett (31:00):
Okay.
Ron DeSantis here in Florida.
Even Floridians don't like him.
Like, I was just like, it's likeone of those things where like
even the Republicans here don'tlike him.
Like, you know, you like goaround and see bumper stickers
of cars.
I was saying to my wife, I waslike, people are like
embarrassed by that man.
Even the Republicans are like,he's a moron.
There's like, that's the thingtoo, is we've had such an influx
of people coming down here,during the Pan Peak pandemic,
(31:23):
Florida's government opened upspaces here before many other
places were open.
And so the government, likeencouraged these Types of people
who were like incrediblyradically conservative with
money, with these kind of crazyideals to like move down here to
live, because they're like, youdon't have to abide by these
crazy rules.
(31:43):
You can just go out and dowhatever.
Our state also is like.
Every time there's like anelection, it's really hard to
have conversations with people'cause we're super
gerrymandered.
So it's like everybody's like,go out and vote and it's like,
you don't understand.
People are trying to, it's likereally made into a point where
you can't be like, succeed or dothese kinds of things.
Here it's like, and like alsolike cost of living and how
things are now from all thesepeople coming in and just
(32:06):
purchasing up all the propertywho they don't, they're not even
like, like it's a crazysituation where it's.
It's deeply unfair.
And I think constantly we'retold like, why don't you just
leave and move somewhere else?
And first of all, where, andsecond of all, that's like such
a place of privilege to be youcan uproot yourself and your
family and go somewhere else.
Like you have to have money anda job and support to be able to
(32:27):
do all that stuff.
But anyway, I love Florida.
I think there's like, like withmany things, there's plenty of
things wrong here too.
I'll be the first to say that,but it's something where I'm
like.
I also think there's suchcommunity support here and
people who really want things tochange and to, and to work on
stuff.
And that's important to me.
I.
Brett Benner (32:45):
Well, and I wouldn't even have brought this
up except it is something youuse in your fiction it's almost
like another character, right?
Absolutely.
You, you really flesh out yourworld and it's, it's so
atmospheric.
You know, one of the greatthings is Cherry works in this
pet store, I I loved this.
I loved the, I loved her wholejob.
I loved this whole environmentof the pet store.
I loved her friends.
(33:06):
Darcy is such a great characterand just that world that you
created, it, it's just such arich.
At which other place, you know,that was just like, and, and,
and just felt so real again.
Because it's, it is this wholetime in somebody's life where
like 28 to me is.
You've been out of school longenough, whether it was just high
school or college, that you feellike you start to be figuring
(33:28):
out what your shit is, but youdon't quite have it together
yet.
Like I've always felt I don'tthink people really start to
figure it out until they're midthirties and I think you hit 40
and you're like, okay, I'm in astride now.
Which only sucks because you'relike, God damn it, I can't do
all the things I want it to dobecause I don't have the energy,
or like everything hurts.
You know?
But I really do believe that,and I think she, she, she's very
(33:50):
typical that way.
They all are very typical thatway.
Kristen Arnett (33:52):
Yeah, it was really important to me also.
'cause that was one thing I knewI was gonna do.
I was like.
She has to have a job whereshe's making some kind of wage
because like clowning obviouslyisn't something she can just do
and be able to live and pay rentor something.
But then I was also like, that'sso much of the kind of job
economy and situation here.
It's like you're working maybeone job, but you're probably
working two or three in order tojust like be able to do things.
(34:14):
And what does it mean to have towork all these kinds of jobs?
To be able to support makingart, but then you're tired and
you're like, I'm so worn outfrom having to do these things
and so I was like, I, I waslike, capitalism is like a big
part of this book.
'cause I was like, that's likewhat it's like to be a working
artist is like having to do abunch of different things to try
(34:35):
and make it.
So you can just live like aplace to live or
Brett Benner (34:39):
Yeah.
Have money
Kristen Arnett (34:39):
to eat.
And, and also it becomes a placewhere you meet friends and like
those are people you know, andit's becomes its own kind of
community and to me I was like apet store, especially with like
different kinds of pets is like,so specifically Central Florida,
we have a lot of different kindsof exotic animals or people with
pets and different things.
And I it also.
Became like a little bit of abit for me.
'cause I love the idea of itbeing like aquarium select
(35:01):
three, but there's not like anaquarium select bridge, like
Brett Benner (35:05):
Exactly.
Right.
Like we we're the first two.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like that, that place inand of itself is a, is a total
sitcom waiting to happen.
Yeah.
With those characters.
Yeah.
Alright, before we leave, I haveto read you this quote from your
book I'm gonna read you thispart of the book and then my
question for you is this.
Okay?
It says this quote, there's ayellow post-it note stuck to my
dashboard.
(35:26):
I put it there almost five yearsago.
After an especially hard week ofwork, a week when everything
that can possibly go wrong hadgone horribly, terribly awry.
My brother dead.
No money, nowhere relationship,no gigs in sight.
What do you want to beremembered for?
Now Terry says, I wanna beremembered for making someone
laugh for them to fucking feelit right in their guts, even if
(35:47):
they don't want to.
So my question for you is, yeah,what do you wanna be remembered
for?
Kristen Arnett (35:53):
Oh, this is such a good question.
I think a few different things.
I think if you'd asked me, andthis is like maybe my favorite
thing about being a person islike, I think our answers can
change all the time.
Mm-hmm.
I think if you'd asked me evenlike 10 years ago, I would've
been like, I wanna be rememberedas like a writer who's like
established and made their mark.
But I think now where I am as a.
Person, I wanna be remembered assomebody who was an important
(36:14):
part of a community and broughta lot of joy and care to the
people around her.
Like that's what I think Ireally would want is for people
to remember me as like a brightlight and somebody who really
cared about like being part ofthings and being part of things
with other people.
I think that's what I'd say.
Now check in with me again onanother 10 and see what I say.
Brett Benner (36:35):
I love that.
And I think you and I, it goesback to we now, we've bookended
our whole conversation.
'cause I feel like that's,that's how you come off.
You come off as a bright lightso I love that that's what you
said.
It's nice.
Thank you.
But I will check back in 10years and then you might be just
completely cynical Well, thishas been so lovely.
It was such a pleasure to sitdown with you.
Please, everyone get the book,buy Independent if you can.
(36:58):
But check out her other books aswell.
You're, you're just a joy andcongratulations on all of this.
I feel like I should be wearinga, a red clown nose on my face
right now, but.
Kristen Arnett (37:08):
You are in your heart and that's all that
matters.
Yes,
Brett Benner (37:11):
yes,
Hey everybody, it's Brett and welcome or
(00:01):
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack.
Hope you all are having afantastic week so far.
By the time this airs, theseverance finale will have
already happened and there'll bea lot more chatter about what's
not happening on the whiteLotus.
There are a couple of books thatI wanted to bring up that are
being released today.
(00:22):
The first is Paul Rudnick.
What is Wrong With You?
The wonderful Paul Rudnick.
This is a comedic novel about agroup of what seems like,
disparate individuals, but theyall kind of have relationships
with each other who all cometogether to go to the wedding of
the year at an exclusive event.
So that's out today.
Also about today is CollumMcCann's new book Twist, which
(00:45):
is simply fantastic.
this is something that Iactually listened to on audio,
and it, it really, it workedgreat on audio and, Collum
McCann reads it, and he's, he'sfantastic.
So if you're an audio bookperson, definitely check that
out.
I'm actually going to get a hardcopy of it because I loved it so
much.
Also, out today for you thrillerpeople out there, the lovely
(01:08):
Ashley Winstead, her new book.
This book Will bury me, comesout about a group of amateur
sleuths who hunt for an elusivekiller, while the world watches.
And then the one other bookthat's coming out today that I'm
intrigued by, and it's abeautiful cover which none of
you I know can see at thismoment, but it says, from the
(01:29):
New York Times bestsellingauthor of the Cloisters comes an
electrifying thriller about anopulent family retreat to Italy
that's shattered by theresurfacing of a decades old
crime.
book's title is Salt Water, andit's by Kathy So.
That looks really fun and like areally great book to get for the
(01:49):
beach.
So anyway, those are some of thebooks that are out today.
Now onto today's guest, I wasreally excited to sit down with
writer Kristin Arnett, whose newbook Stop me if you heard this
one came out last week.
She's one of those people and Italk about it in our
conversation, who I just find soinfectious on social media and
watching her in conversation.
(02:11):
So I was really looking forwardto sitting down and having this
conversation and she did notdisappoint.
So a little bit about.
Kristen, she is the New YorkTimes bestselling author of the
novels with teeth and mostlydead things.
She has twice been a finalistfor a Lambda Literary Award, and
she lives in Orlando, Florida.
(02:34):
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
Okay.
I have my coffee.
I'm good to go.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
I was talking about your book onmy on my YouTube page a few
weeks ago.
'cause I had just started it andI was talking about things I was
reading for, for, for February.
(02:56):
And you are so interesting to mebecause you're one of those
people, I have a feeling that somany people feel like they know
you probably without actuallyknowing you.
You have one of those kind ofpersonalities.
And I was saying on my YouTube,I have never talked to you.
I've never met you.
I've never even interacted withyou on social media, and yet I
was like, but I feel like wewould be friends.
Kristen Arnett (03:17):
I love that.
I feel like we'd be friends.
We're friends now.
Brett Benner (03:20):
I mean, and I and I, and I feel like you're kind
of one of those people thatprobably engender that and other
people that they probably arelike, well.
Actually she's, she's my bestfriend also because it's like, I
loved in your afterwards you'relike, I have so many friends,
and you'd listen.
I loved that so much.
So, anyway, so there's nopressure at all, but I just
needed to tell you that.
(03:41):
That's really nice.
all that to say, I'm, I'mthrilled that you're here.
I really loved your book.
But it's so terrific.
Both your covers are so muchfun.
The UK cover is great as well.
They're really wonderful covers.
So I just wanted to talk alittle bit about you for a
moment before we actually gotinto the book.
So you were born in Florida,right?
You were born and bred, correct?
Kristen Arnett (04:02):
Yeah, generation
Brett Benner (04:02):
wow.
Okay.
So, and then you grew up inquite an evangelical home,
correct?
Kristen Arnett (04:07):
Yes, I did.
My father, my family is like a.
Southern Baptist yeah.
So it's a very specific, kind oflike conservative, evangelical
upbringing for sure.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (04:18):
Did, did you have siblings?
Kristen Arnett (04:19):
I have.
I'm the oldest of three, so it'smyself and then my brother who's
two years younger than me and mysister, who's like eight and a
half years younger than me.
Brett Benner (04:28):
Now, I know you're estranged, I think, from your
parents, but do you have arelationship with your siblings?
Kristen Arnett (04:33):
I have a relationship with my sister.
Actually she's also queer.
She just got married.
I, I think she's like, she'ssaying queer now.
First she was saying bisexual.
She just got married.
I love her partner.
He's so lovely.
We hosted her, like a receptionin our backyard here at my
house.
And it was actually really nicebecause growing up we, like
(04:53):
eight and a half years is kindof like a gap.
And I had room with her growingup.
So it's like we were not theclosest growing up, but now that
we're adults it's been nicebecause yeah, she's basically
the only person I have contactwith for my family.
Brett Benner (05:09):
So, okay, so then jumping ahead.
You had a son and so you wereworking as a librarian right?
To, to support yourself and makeends meet.
so tell me about that and movingfrom that, how did the writing
start?
Kristen Arnett (05:24):
Yeah, I mean the writing like has, was always
kind of happening in thebackground.
I think I just never consideredmyself to be a writer.
I think I do that thing thatlike plenty of us do, where we
have enough going on in ourlives and then we are like, oh,
well I, I don't feel like Ideserve to call myself a writer.
So I was, but I also was verybusy.
I had my son, I was working fulltime.
(05:45):
I.
Was started gonna school atnight.
So I always say like I had avery like non-traditional kind
of like path through educationand that's something I really
like to talk about when I'mtalking about writing,
especially with young writersbecause I think there's this
idea that like, there's onesingle path to like be a
creative person.
And that's obviously not thecase'cause it definitely wasn't
(06:07):
the case for me.
I was like.
Yeah, I was going to school atnight and then I was writing in
my free time which was verysmall amounts of free time.
So I was writing like, you know,early in the morning when I'd
get up and have to like open thelibrary in like pockets of time,
like at night, like when like myson was asleep and I would be
like, still kind of buzzing froma very full day.
(06:28):
And also stressed out'cause Ihad no money and being scared
about finances.
So those things are like, I feellike I was so productive in
those years.
I kind of look like back on itnow and anytime I feel like I'm
busy, like quote unquote now,I'm like, well, are you really
that busy?
Because think about like all thethings you used to have to do
all the time.
But yeah, it was one of thosethings where I was like, I'm
(06:48):
just gonna do it.
So I did my undergrad that wayand then I'm gonna go ahead and
do my master's in libraryscience the same kind of way at
night.
Mm-hmm.
So I was still like working inthe library.
I was also.
Then I was really starting tolike I was writing essays.
I was applying for workshopsbecause I was like, I can't do
an MFA.
That was one of the choices Imade where I was like, after I
(07:10):
finished my undergrad, I.
Really wanted to maybe do an MFAand I was like, this isn't
financially responsible to dowith a, a child.
I didn't wanna uproot him.
I was always very serious aboutwanting to make sure that he had
everything he needed and thathe, I wanted him to stay in the
same school and keep the samefriends.
it was very important for me, tofeel like I was providing him
with a sense of stability.
(07:31):
So I was like, I can't uproothim and drag him to like some
program I'm going to somewhere.
Like that's ridiculous.
So I was like, okay, I can't dothat, but what can I do?
So that I feel I'm getting thatkind of like writing.
Assistance and support that Ineed.
And one of the things I waslike, well, I can DIY, anything,
like I'm, I'm from Orlando.
Mm-hmm.
(07:51):
Like, like, I'm like, I can do,I can do anything I need to do.
So I was like, okay, I'm goingto really start working.
I'm going to have a daily kindof ritual of reading and
writing.
I'm going to start applying forthese workshops.
So I applied for Lambda, whichis the LGBTQ plus.
Mm-hmm.
Workshop.
And I got into that workshop andI remember being literally
(08:11):
flabbergasted.
I was like, I have publishednothing.
I don't have anything.
And I got to that workshop andit was a literal life changer.
I met the faculty, but also itwas the first time I've been
around so many different kindsof queer people who were all,
making work.
I left that workshop withlifelong friendships.
Like Tommy Pico was there when Iwas there and he officiated my
wedding this last year.
(08:32):
There's just like people thatare in my life, like forever now
that I made that are like writerfriends.
And I was like, oh, it's soenriching I don't need to have
an MFA, I think there'sabsolutely nothing wrong, like
it's great to get an MFA, but Iwas like, I couldn't do it, but
I can have these things andthey're gonna serve in the same
kind of way where I'm gettingthe support and the kind of
camaraderie and the sharing ofwork and that stuff was so
(08:54):
important to me.
So I started doing that.
I applied every year and I, Ivery luckily, every summer after
that, got into a workshop.
So I would like take my timefrom work where I'd have these
like two weeks saved up and I'mlike, okay, I'm taking this one
week and I'm going to a workshopI went to Tin house after that
and I was like, I'm treatingthis really like bootcamp, MFA,
I went to every lecture.
I wrote notes.
Every time I was a workshop, Itook notes.
(09:15):
I was like, I'm gonna treat thisso seriously.
And then after I would leave, Iwould have this huge spurt of
creativity where I'd just belike working nonstop because it
felt like I was so like full up,like full of the brim of like
lots of good things.
So I, from there, like atenhouse, that's where I found
my agent.
They have these like agent meetand greets and I ended up
meeting an agent that was rightfor me.
And then Tenhouse in the.
(09:35):
Publishing my first novel too.
So it just kinda all built fromthese spaces where I was like,
I'm gonna make opportunitieshappen even if I feel like
opportunities can come in anykind of form.
So I was like, it doesn't haveto be this.
Like I went to an MFA and I hada faculty and I had a cohort.
It can be like, I'm going to aworkshop and I'm gonna find an
agent and I'm gonna make ithappen and I'm gonna write the
whole time.
I just was like busting, assconstantly, I feel.
Brett Benner (09:58):
So most of these workshops,'cause I'm just, I'm
being not familiar with them,they last a week or two weeks.
Is that how they normally go?
Kristen Arnett (10:04):
Yeah.
And some of'em are differenttoo.
So I did like the ones I endedup doing where I did Lambda,
which was wonderful.
I did Tin House like three yearsin a row.
And I also did Kenyon Kenyo nWriters Workshop and the Lambda
and Tenhouse are.
Those are interesting in thatyou show up with work that gets
workshopped that you've alreadywritten.
(10:24):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You're looking for feedback and so you sit with
like your, your group that'sthere in your workshop and
everybody kind of gives youfeedback or you get help from
not only the instructor from,but from other people in
workshop.
And then they have Adjacentthings going on, like there's
like panels with differentwriters who were there.
There's lectures from differentauthors.
There's like editors things.
So if you're looking to, maybeyou're trying to submit to
(10:44):
journals or you're trying to getwork published, like an essay or
a short story, you can hear fromeditors.
It's a lot of like informationthat is hard to find if you're
on your own.
But Kenyon is a workshop that'slike incredibly generative.
So that was like a greatworkshop for me.
It's actually where I startedthe genesis of my first novel,
mostly Dead Things, was I was atthat generative workshop where
(11:05):
every day we were writingsomething new inside of a
workshop space and I was like,this is incredible.
I love it.
We get kind of prompts from a,our workshop leader and then
like we'd go and we'd work andwe'd also get like kind of craft
intensives with talking aboutperspective and narrative art.
And different things like that.
And I was like, this is allstuff that's so cool that I've
just been kind of just fumblingaround with or feeling out on my
(11:25):
own.
And so to hear here's theprocess or here's some reading,
extra reading you can do to likefigure out more if you're
interested in or like how youcan fiddle around with structure
inside of like shorts fiction oressays or poetry.
These are all usually likearound a week.
And some of them cost money.
Some of them you can get likescholarships too, which they're
like even far between.
I would save up like every year,any of like my fun money or
(11:46):
like, not that I had that muchgone but if I got like any money
back for taxes when I had to domy horrible taxes every year,
that was literally earmarked forlike I was like, okay, I'm gonna
take my days off.
I'm gonna take this money andI'm gonna go to workshop.
Because I was like, I'm takingthis as seriously, like it's a
heart attack.
I'm gonna be so serious aboutthis.
And I also just got so much joyfrom it.
(12:06):
So some of it too, I askedmyself even if like this doesn't
result in an agent or it doesn'tresult in a book deal, is this
meaningful for me?
And the answer to that was like,absolutely yes.
Because I felt like the bestversion of myself being a writer
and being surrounded by othercreatives and talking about work
and talking about books andtalking about structure and
craft.
And it was just the most fun.
And so this is obviously whatI'm supposed to be doing.
(12:28):
I mean, which is, that's
Brett Benner (12:29):
amazing.
Kristen Arnett (12:29):
Away from library work.
'cause I love library work too.
Those are just like twodisparate things that also
manage to touch each other.
Brett Benner (12:35):
Well, it's like you're filling your tank, you
know, you're, and you're sofilling that side of yourself.
Alright.
So for your latest book, do youhave an elevator pitch?
Kristen Arnett (12:45):
It's like one of those things where I'm like
right away it's a very specifickind of story Lesbian, but like,
fuck boy, birthday party clownin central Florida.
Makes friends with a much oldermagician.
For, and in order to advance hercareer and like erotic high
hijinks ensue and a lot ofdiscovery about like art and
capitalism and like the cultureof living inside of central
(13:08):
Florida.
Brett Benner (13:08):
We have, talk about where did this idea come
from?
From you?
What was the genesis?
Where did Cherry come from?
I.
Go.
Kristen Arnett (13:16):
It's one of those things where the process
for writing this book, like ittook, I took more time to think
about it than I did to actuallywrite it.
Like the writing of this bookwas very fast.
But I truly thought about theconcept for a whole year because
I was like, I don't want to fuckthis up.
Like this is such an importantproject to me.
Sometimes I feel like formyself, I know when something's
(13:39):
a novel because it feels so big,my brain barely wants to touch
it or hold it.
I'm like, oh, that's an excitingidea.
Like that's an exciting idea.
It was like that for mostly deadthings.
It was like that for my secondnovel with teeth, which was
this.
I got this idea of a thwarted,child abduction, and I was like,
Ugh.
this is exciting to start from.
But for this one with a clown, Iwas like.
Funny birthday party clown.
(14:00):
And some of it too is the bookis not about me.
I mean, I had so much funwriting it.
But I think a lot of the humoror ideas about humor and comedy
that are in there, likesomething like that come from
questions I've thought aboutbefore, like past and also too
like a.
I get a lot because you'reright, like when you said
earlier, like, people follow meon social media and have like
(14:20):
maybe an idea about who I am orlike, and I also think too, I'm
pretty upfront about who I am.
So kind of what you see is whatyou get.
I am like who I am on theinternet, but I've had people
before like read my work and belike, oh, I thought this would
be funny.
Like, you're so funny online.
Like they're so, you guys make ajoke.
Then I'm kind of like.
Do you think a 300 page book isgonna be like 140 character
(14:41):
tweet?
Is that what you're likeequating those things to and so
I kind of was like, ha ha, wellif you want a clown, I'll give
you a clown, I'll go give yousomething funny.
And then it kind of became athing where I wanna write a
really, really funny book.
I wanna write a book and itstarted to take shape in my mind
and I'm like, okay, a clown,like somebody who's gonna
perform for a captive audience.
Somebody who's like their solepurpose is to entertain in this
(15:02):
kind of way or do performanceand it's also kind of drag.
So I was like, there's a lothappening here where I thought
about it the more I was like,this is really interesting to
me.
It also is I'm from centralFlorida and I'm always trying to
write about Central Florida, andI was like, so much of like what
people.
Think about where I live it's aplace where people travel to, as
a tourist destination, but theyalso think it's tacky.
(15:24):
So they have preconceived ideasabout what counts as art there,
right?
Like, so people love to come toOrlando and be like, oh, I've
been to Orlando.
I'm like, no, you went to DisneyWorld, you didn't come to this
place.
And also now you have ideasabout what you think art is from
being here.
You think that you have anunderstanding.
So the clown for me became a wayto kind of be like hierarchies
(15:45):
in terms of like,'cause even inperformance culture there's
ideas about like what counts asgood art versus bad art.
And so I was like, this isreally exciting to me to think
about.
And then the shape kind oforganically came to me as I was
beginning to think about it alittle.
'cause I don't outline.
That gets really boring for meand I.
I've discovered that if I sitdown and try and act like I'm
(16:05):
gonna outline, then when I sitdown to write, I'll go in the
complete opposite direction.
So it eventually became, eachchapter was kind of its own bit
its own joke.
And these jokes all sit togetherto form maybe a set.
And so this is the clown set forthe most part, except for that
like chapter in the middlethat's like.
Magicians act.
'cause that needs to be its ownstructure that needs to be the
(16:25):
magician's voice.
But it truly became this isgoing to be about what is,
what's the cost of making art?
Like what's the cost of makingart, and especially art that
people you think is reallyimportant, that like fuels you,
but other people maybe don'tvalue.
Or have a preconceived ideaabout what that art is that
you're actually trying to make.
And maybe it's looking down onit.
So it, it turned into somethingwhere I was like, this is very
(16:46):
much a, a central Florida book.
It's very Orlando book.
And it's very much about theentertainment industry inside
of.
Central Florida.
And it also was just so much funto write.
Like every day I sat down tolike, work on that book was a
genuine pleasure.
It's the most fun I've ever hadworking on a project.
When I got and I wrote it soquickly, I sat down and it took
(17:07):
me over a year to think aboutit, but when I sat down to write
it, I got it done in like threeand a half months I wrote that.
Wow.
And the draft, as it is, ispretty much the book.
Like it's pretty much Wow.
How I wrote it.
And I felt like,'cause I let it,I let it like kind of.
Steep long enough in my brain,maybe, you know?
Yeah.
Sit there and I got to thinkabout it.
And it worked.
And it worked.
Brett Benner (17:25):
And.
When you begin to formulate thisidea of this clown and who she
was and what type of clown, I'mjust so curious, were there
people that you talked to interms of your research?
Did people emerge that you'relike, okay, this is closer to
what I see her as versus this,because it's also to be a party
clown is so specific as well.
I mean, there, there's such aninteresting thing to me about.
(17:46):
Somebody who is in this point ofher life where she's, she's 28
years old, trying to get it,figure it together.
A lot of things could seemseemingly like shit.
And then you're also having togo and get it up for a bunch of
kids and make balloon animals.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Kristen Arnett (17:59):
So we knew right away that this was the kind of
clown.
That I wanted her to be.
I'll also be completely honest,my favorite thing about doing
research is whenever I get intoresearch and I discover there's
a lot more beneath the surface,like
mm,
maybe like an iceberg, like where I think it's
this one thing at the top, butthen when I go below I'm like,
oh, there's a lot more here.
And so researching clowns andclowning was a lot like this.
(18:21):
'cause I thought I had an ideaabout,'cause I was like, I'm
doing birthday party clown.
I'm doing like this kind ofspecific clowning.
But then I was like, the more Idid research, I want her to be.
A professional, at least in herown mind.
She's a professional, so she'sgonna know a lot about like the
mechanics of humor, the aspectsof like physical comedy.
I want her to have a grasp oflike history of clowning.
(18:45):
And it's one of those things toowhere maybe that doesn't
necessarily have to come outverbatim her saying something on
the page, but I wanna do enoughresearch that it feels embedded
into her.
So if I do need to give like onelittle sentence like I did like.
History of clowning and likedifferent kinds of clowning.
There was so much to dig into.
I had to stop myself.
'cause I think that's somethingthat writers do also, where we
will start like.
(19:05):
Doing research to the detrimentof actually sitting down and
typing out the work.
So I was like, okay, I can't
Brett Benner (19:11):
You're wormhole, you're clown wormhole.
Kristen Arnett (19:13):
Exactly.
So I was like, okay, so I spentlike a lot of time watching a
lot of videos because so much ofit is this is an extremely.
Physical book.
'cause a lot of clowning isphysical act.
Mm-hmm.
So I wanna see like how bodiesmove, how clowns move when
they're performing.
I wanna see like application ofgrease paint.
I wanna see tutorial videos andI've watched a lot of tutorial
(19:33):
videos on the art of the PrattFall.
So, oh.
Like yeah.
So you'd get these like clownswithout their makeup on, sitting
and talking about and here's whythis is important or how you
would do this, and why themovement of the body here and
they're describing in this kindof way where it's almost like a
physics lesson and also here'swhy?
Why it's might be funny for anaudience and here's what you can
(19:53):
do so you don't hurt yourself.
So it's like actually this kindof thing.
Brett Benner (19:57):
Mm.
Kristen Arnett (19:57):
And then that same person would have on their
gear and then perform like thepratfall.
So that's two kind of sides.
I was like, this is fascinating.
So it's wow.
A lot of time like kind ofwatching things and most of the
clowns that I watched in thesekinds of videos were like, I was
like, I want performance partyclowns because that's the kind
of clown that she wants to be.
(20:18):
But then I also I looked at likeadjacent, kind of circus clowns
because there's a lot ofsimilarities in touch between
them.
Like one, one talks and onedoesn't.
Right?
You've got like VO one has avoice and is a very specific and
one is like, I read about this alittle in the book, but like
one's like, kind of like groupbased, right?
Like the clown?
Yeah.
Media they're all kind of.
Touching and like tangential toeach other.
(20:38):
So I was like watching that.
I'm like, okay, what's thedifference between these and
like, who I wanna write?
And then I also kind of likeCherry's, like I'm not a standup
comedian, but I think in herhead she kind of is, she's her
own best audience, so,
Brett Benner (20:49):
yeah.
Well that's what the interestingthing was.
I was finding so manycomparisons too, and I, and I
was almost gonna ask you thatwhen, when you were doing in
construction, I, there was apoint that I was like, it's so
interesting, like I wonder whyshe chose clowning versus
standup because there's such aparallel and in terms of that
trying to be funny, but youknow, also so many standups are
(21:09):
just so miserable.
By nature, which is what they'repulling on, frankly, to do their
material.
And we forget, you know, youwatch them on stage and you're
like, oh my God, they're sofunny and they're so sharp and
they're so quick, and at thesame time, they've got
disastrous personal lives andthey're just miserable people.
And admittedly they'll tell youthat.
(21:30):
Yeah.
So.
And she's not a miserable personby any stretch of the
imagination.
Cherry to me, she's thriving.
She's trying very hard Yeah.
To do the best she can in thecircumstances that she's in.
You know what I mean?
Kristen Arnett (21:42):
Yes.
I also think too it was reallyimportant to me because I think
that, right.
That's a great question.
I think in her own mind, she'sher.
She's the funniest person in theroom all the time.
And I was like, but so much ofclowning for her is putting on a
persona.
Yeah.
So the funny, she gets to befunny but not herself.
So she doesn't have to like belike, here's personal
information about me in order tobe funny.
(22:03):
Right.
Because I think she's reallyguarded with the kind of stuff
that's happened with her mom andlike things with her brother.
And so being a clown means shegets to be funny, but people
don't get to have access to whoshe actually is as a person.
And that's a line that happensbecause standup uses a lot of
Personal, like Sure, a
Brett Benner (22:19):
hundred percent.
Yeah.
Well, and I also do, because shedoes, she has a very complicated
relationship with her mother whowas also a lesbian, which was,
this whole thing was sofascinating.
And of course I'm not gonna getinto any spoilers of the book,
but there is this element Ikept.
Thinking about because she'slost her brother.
Her brother has died, who waskind of the light of her
(22:39):
mother's life and also the kindof naturally this, the center of
attention naturally.
Really funny.
Yeah.
So I kept thinking, how much isshe.
Really trying to get through hermother's indifference.
Really striving to be seen byher mother.
Yeah.
Who refuses to even call herCherry.
Right.
She calls her Cheryl.
Yeah.
Her, her, her given name.
(23:00):
So I kept thinking and how manypeople who are performers are
really trying to be seen in onecapacity or another.
Kristen Arnett (23:07):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (23:07):
I think it's really, I think you're
Kristen Arnett (23:08):
right.
I think that's a lot of, it canbe a lot of like performance and
stuff too.
And I.
I wanted to,'cause it's a fineline.
'cause it's a, it's a firstperson, right?
This book works best in myopinion as a very voicey first
person, somebody next to youtelling you like a joke, like
right to you.
So I really wanted her to bevery first person.
But that means sometimes thatyou are allowed to be what does
(23:30):
cherry understand about herselfand what does she not see?
Right?
Like, what is she like able tolike, mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
What, what kind of information does she actually
is she willing to like, engagewith and what stuff will she not
let herself think about and someof that stuff is her, for myself
was thinking about herrelationship with her mother.
Like how much is she willing toadmit to herself about what she
does for a living and how likeher relationship with her mother
(23:53):
has maybe informed some of thechoices that she's made.
that's always fun for me'cause Ilove like the unreliability a
little bit, like just a touch ofunreliability of being like,
'cause that's so human to me.
Like, we all have these likereasonings and thoughts about
like, why we choose to dothings.
And it's possible that a lot ofthe time, like the things we're
telling ourselves aren'tnecessarily a hundred percent of
why we make any kind of choicebecause you know, we're not we
(24:15):
we're not able to see with anykind of like level of clarity.
'cause we are biased in our ownparticular lived experience.
Brett Benner (24:23):
Sure.
And also just.
Let's be honest.
The career to say, well, I'm aclown.
You know what I mean?
Just, just to lead with that.
Because even, and, and even forpeople to say, well, I'm an
actor, you know, it'simmediately like, what have I
seen you in?
But if you say, I'm a clown,what that does and what that
says, that alone is funny rightthere.
You know what I mean?
And because inevitably you seethe reaction of every person
(24:46):
trying to be like.
Oh great.
So what, where like, you know,where like, are you a member of
a circus?
Kristen Arnett (24:54):
It's really funny.
And then it became a thing'causethat was so funny to me.
Like sitting and like beinglike, how does this sit fit
inside of like a novel, right?
Like, how can this be used askind of like a narrative tool
moving through here?
Mm-hmm.
Like
what would it be like, right.
Going through life and beinglike, this is my art.
I care about it very much.
And then like, be dating.
Be meeting friends, trying toget work and then having to have
conversations about this.
(25:16):
You know, the clown in thecorner of the room, you're like,
this is who I am and this iswhat I do.
And then also it became a veryfascinating thing to me because
like clown in popular culture isdivisive, right?
Like I had to be.
So like people have real phobiasabout,
Brett Benner (25:30):
oh, huge.
Kristen Arnett (25:32):
And so, and for like, good reason like Stephen
King and I love, I'm a StephenKing reader, so I'm just like, I
know this like the zeitgeist oflike the clown and it, and you
know how clowns sit in horror.
Like if you like a SpiritHalloween store, you go in,
probably the first thing that'sgonna scream at you is some kind
of clown, right?
You know, big teeth.
So I was like, okay, you know,like what does it mean then to
be really wanting to dosomething where you wanna
(25:53):
entertain people, you think it'sfunny and it's your art and it
is such a trigger for somepeople that they run screaming
from a room or perhaps likereact violently towards you.
But I was like, okay, right.
Something that can sit in heretoo.
So it was.
Really interesting to like kindof delve into that and think
about it.
Brett Benner (26:10):
Well it's funny 'cause I Googled day before
yesterday.
I was just looking at it.
I was like, clowns in Florida.
'cause I was expecting thiswhole thing.
And the first thing that comesup is that creepy story about
that man who was going aroundFlorida.
Like the clown would just standthere, I think, with the
balloon.
Yep.
And I remember when that cameout and I was like, and I'm not
usually freaked out by clowns,but that one, and I think they
even did a documentary about it.
(26:31):
They did, yeah.
But I was like.
Well, here we go.
This all tracks, all of it.
Which brings me I gotta veer offher for a moment because I have
to talk about your setting.
Okay.
Because I have to say Florida,and I was almost thinking, I was
like, Kristen, if I was thinkingabout, I, if I said to you, I'm
thinking about maybe moving toFlorida, what would your pitch
(26:53):
be?
Oh, because,
and as, and like, and, and bearing in mind, like
as a queer person and maybe asa, like, you know, I have a
family, but what would you say?
Like yeah, the reasons for, forit.
Because you're a huge advocatefor your state.
Kristen Arnett (27:07):
Yes.
I always have to say like, I'mlike unofficial brand
ambassador.
Yeah, from Central Florida likethe welcoming committee, like
maybe if you like show up at theairport there, I am.
Like ready to take you offsomewhere.
Brett Benner (27:18):
Right.
Kristen Arnett (27:18):
I think that first of all specifically,
central Florida is way morequeer than people think.
Mm-hmm.
One of those things is that weare a hospitality hub.
Like we're a tourist destinationfor a lot of entertainment and a
lot of queer people are inentertainment.
Right?
Like, it's like music, dance.
Theater, the arts.
(27:38):
Like that's not straight people.
Hello Disney.
Yeah, that's plenty gay people.
That's lots of gay people.
So when we have, we have like alot of entertainment stuff here
and like.
Queer spaces and things to doand like, so like nightlife for
sure, right?
Bars and things like that.
But also just a ton ofopportunities to do things with
(28:00):
families and with kids anddifferent things.
It's also a space that's like,Florida's gorgeous.
We have crazy weather, but likehonestly, climate change is real
and so does everywhere.
So it's like you're not gonnalive anywhere at this point.
Now, where there're not is, isit Some kind of like, there's
horrible, horrible wildfires allthrough like California.
(28:20):
You know, hurricane went up andit went in through Asheville,
North Carolina.
Know, it's
Brett Benner (28:24):
pick your, pick your place.
I mean, I really think at thispoint it's really just Ohio and
Pennsylvania.
Maybe.
Kristen Arnett (28:29):
Yeah, maybe.
Maybe for now.
Fingers crossed, right?
It's like there's thingseverywhere and so that's the
thing.
It's like Florida.
Has this reputation because ofthe way it's been like portrayed
specifically in the media forone.
Right?
And some of that is like oursunshine laws, which means
unlike other places, as soon assomething wacky or weird or like
(28:50):
a Florida man thing happenshere, the news gets to
immediately put that on.
Whereas other places, there's abuffer in between where it
doesn't immediately get, so thesame kind of shit is happening
other places.
It just
gets
immediately put into the news cycle here.
That's one.
The other thing is, is we have.
Horrible government, but also Iwould say, right, so does
America now.
So that's its own thing.
(29:11):
But we have gorgeousopportunities to do things with
the nature that like you cannotget anywhere else.
Like literally this spring youcould go down the road to look
at hundreds of manatees justswimming in the springs.
And that's free to do.
That's something you can like goand do this kind of stuff.
We have the best food.
(29:32):
My wife is such a foodie.
She used to work for Eater NewYork.
Brett Benner (29:36):
Oh wow.
Kristen Arnett (29:36):
Yeah.
So she moved down here and sheis like, now she's like
evangelizing to everybody.
She's like, the food scene hereis incredible.
We have Michelin star places andthese aren't places necessarily
out at the parks.
It's small, local places thatare literally down the street
that you can go and eat, thebest meal of your life here.
So great food.
We have great entertainment.
We have beautiful, gorgeousweather.
We have like all kinds ofoutdoor stuff.
(29:57):
You can do nightlife stuff, youcan do stuff with families.
it's like an all inclusiveplace.
And for right now anyway,Orlando's a blue hub, like we're
a blue spot in a red state.
So, yeah.
Anyway, any, if anybody needsany further like encouragement,
I'm always trying to get peopleto be here that are cool and
clear.
Brett Benner (30:13):
At the very least.
You've, you've sold me on theOrlando part of it, so.
Yeah, it's weird.
It just, Florida to me isalways, you know, besides the
Taylor Swift song.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Yes.
But we all watch it every fouryears at election time to see,
you know, the, the, the madnessthat is Florida and, and the
kind of crazy diversity and howthings swing and how, how varied
(30:35):
it is.
But like many places, it justseems to, you can speak to this,
it just seems to have increasedover the years and, and it's,
it's changed over the years.
Yeah.
I saw DeSantis, DeSantis was onyesterday talking about wanting
to create his own dogedepartment for the state of
Florida, talking about cleaningup the corruption that's been
existing for so many years.
I.
I watched a woman yesterday andsaid, Republicans have been in
(30:55):
charge for the last 24.
So there you go.
Kristen Arnett (31:00):
Okay.
Ron DeSantis here in Florida.
Even Floridians don't like him.
Like, I was just like, it's likeone of those things where like
even the Republicans here don'tlike him.
Like, you know, you like goaround and see bumper stickers
of cars.
I was saying to my wife, I waslike, people are like
embarrassed by that man.
Even the Republicans are like,he's a moron.
There's like, that's the thingtoo, is we've had such an influx
of people coming down here,during the Pan Peak pandemic,
(31:23):
Florida's government opened upspaces here before many other
places were open.
And so the government, likeencouraged these Types of people
who were like incrediblyradically conservative with
money, with these kind of crazyideals to like move down here to
live, because they're like, youdon't have to abide by these
crazy rules.
(31:43):
You can just go out and dowhatever.
Our state also is like.
Every time there's like anelection, it's really hard to
have conversations with people'cause we're super
gerrymandered.
So it's like everybody's like,go out and vote and it's like,
you don't understand.
People are trying to, it's likereally made into a point where
you can't be like, succeed or dothese kinds of things.
Here it's like, and like alsolike cost of living and how
things are now from all thesepeople coming in and just
(32:06):
purchasing up all the propertywho they don't, they're not even
like, like it's a crazysituation where it's.
It's deeply unfair.
And I think constantly we'retold like, why don't you just
leave and move somewhere else?
And first of all, where, andsecond of all, that's like such
a place of privilege to be youcan uproot yourself and your
family and go somewhere else.
Like you have to have money anda job and support to be able to
(32:27):
do all that stuff.
But anyway, I love Florida.
I think there's like, like withmany things, there's plenty of
things wrong here too.
I'll be the first to say that,but it's something where I'm
like.
I also think there's suchcommunity support here and
people who really want things tochange and to, and to work on
stuff.
And that's important to me.
I.
Brett Benner (32:45):
Well, and I wouldn't even have brought this
up except it is something youuse in your fiction it's almost
like another character, right?
Absolutely.
You, you really flesh out yourworld and it's, it's so
atmospheric.
You know, one of the greatthings is Cherry works in this
pet store, I I loved this.
I loved the, I loved her wholejob.
I loved this whole environmentof the pet store.
I loved her friends.
(33:06):
Darcy is such a great characterand just that world that you
created, it, it's just such arich.
At which other place, you know,that was just like, and, and,
and just felt so real again.
Because it's, it is this wholetime in somebody's life where
like 28 to me is.
You've been out of school longenough, whether it was just high
school or college, that you feellike you start to be figuring
(33:28):
out what your shit is, but youdon't quite have it together
yet.
Like I've always felt I don'tthink people really start to
figure it out until they're midthirties and I think you hit 40
and you're like, okay, I'm in astride now.
Which only sucks because you'relike, God damn it, I can't do
all the things I want it to dobecause I don't have the energy,
or like everything hurts.
You know?
But I really do believe that,and I think she, she, she's very
(33:50):
typical that way.
They all are very typical thatway.
Kristen Arnett (33:52):
Yeah, it was really important to me also.
'cause that was one thing I knewI was gonna do.
I was like.
She has to have a job whereshe's making some kind of wage
because like clowning obviouslyisn't something she can just do
and be able to live and pay rentor something.
But then I was also like, that'sso much of the kind of job
economy and situation here.
It's like you're working maybeone job, but you're probably
working two or three in order tojust like be able to do things.
(34:14):
And what does it mean to have towork all these kinds of jobs?
To be able to support makingart, but then you're tired and
you're like, I'm so worn outfrom having to do these things
and so I was like, I, I waslike, capitalism is like a big
part of this book.
'cause I was like, that's likewhat it's like to be a working
artist is like having to do abunch of different things to try
(34:35):
and make it.
So you can just live like aplace to live or
Brett Benner (34:39):
Yeah.
Have money
Kristen Arnett (34:39):
to eat.
And, and also it becomes a placewhere you meet friends and like
those are people you know, andit's becomes its own kind of
community and to me I was like apet store, especially with like
different kinds of pets is like,so specifically Central Florida,
we have a lot of different kindsof exotic animals or people with
pets and different things.
And I it also.
Became like a little bit of abit for me.
'cause I love the idea of itbeing like aquarium select
(35:01):
three, but there's not like anaquarium select bridge, like
Brett Benner (35:05):
Exactly.
Right.
Like we we're the first two.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like that, that place inand of itself is a, is a total
sitcom waiting to happen.
Yeah.
With those characters.
Yeah.
Alright, before we leave, I haveto read you this quote from your
book I'm gonna read you thispart of the book and then my
question for you is this.
Okay?
It says this quote, there's ayellow post-it note stuck to my
dashboard.
(35:26):
I put it there almost five yearsago.
After an especially hard week ofwork, a week when everything
that can possibly go wrong hadgone horribly, terribly awry.
My brother dead.
No money, nowhere relationship,no gigs in sight.
What do you want to beremembered for?
Now Terry says, I wanna beremembered for making someone
laugh for them to fucking feelit right in their guts, even if
(35:47):
they don't want to.
So my question for you is, yeah,what do you wanna be remembered
for?
Kristen Arnett (35:53):
Oh, this is such a good question.
I think a few different things.
I think if you'd asked me, andthis is like maybe my favorite
thing about being a person islike, I think our answers can
change all the time.
Mm-hmm.
I think if you'd asked me evenlike 10 years ago, I would've
been like, I wanna be rememberedas like a writer who's like
established and made their mark.
But I think now where I am as a.
Person, I wanna be remembered assomebody who was an important
(36:14):
part of a community and broughta lot of joy and care to the
people around her.
Like that's what I think Ireally would want is for people
to remember me as like a brightlight and somebody who really
cared about like being part ofthings and being part of things
with other people.
I think that's what I'd say.
Now check in with me again onanother 10 and see what I say.
Brett Benner (36:35):
I love that.
And I think you and I, it goesback to we now, we've bookended
our whole conversation.
'cause I feel like that's,that's how you come off.
You come off as a bright lightso I love that that's what you
said.
It's nice.
Thank you.
But I will check back in 10years and then you might be just
completely cynical Well, thishas been so lovely.
It was such a pleasure to sitdown with you.
Please, everyone get the book,buy Independent if you can.
(36:58):
But check out her other books aswell.
You're, you're just a joy andcongratulations on all of this.
I feel like I should be wearinga, a red clown nose on my face
right now, but.
Kristen Arnett (37:08):
You are in your heart and that's all that
matters.
Yes,
Brett Benner (37:11):
yes,
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