January 28, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with Kristin Koval to discuss her debut novel, “Penitence” which is the Barnes and Noble Discover pick for February.
She talks about her former career as a lawyer, her path to becoming a writer, empathy for characters, and the journey from tragedy to forgiveness.
Kristin's website:
https://kristinkoval.com/
Kristin's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/kristinkovalwriter
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey, everybody, it's Brett and welcome or
(00:01):
welcome back to behind thestack.
So I hope you all had a goodweek or are having a good week
wherever you are.
Crazy weather.
here in the US.
Crazy weather everywhere,frankly, but, freezing cold
temperatures, fires inCalifornia.
It's a little crazy.
Anyway, I hope you're allstaying safe.
I hope you're all staying warm.
(00:23):
I hope you're all cuddling upwith a good book.
And to add to that, I have a fewtitles that are coming out today
that I wanted to highlight.
The first is Good Dirt byCharmaine Wilkerson, the author
of Black Cake, which I reallyenjoy.
This is her new book.
Also for you thriller fans,Frida McFadden.
The crash is out today.
And finally, Edmund White has anonfiction book, the loves of my
(00:46):
life, which is kind of a, uh,recounting of his sexual
conquests.
Speaking of books out today, mynext guest, her debut book, and.
Her name is Kristen Koval.
The book is Penitence.
It's really terrific.
And, we had a really greatconversation, a little bit about
Kristen.
(01:06):
She is a former lawyer whoalways wanted to be a writer,
but initially wandered downother paths.
While writing Penitence, shecompleted a 12 month novel
generator class at CatapultBooks.
She's an alumna of Suwannee'sWriter Conference and.
Aspen Summer Words, and hershort story, Inheritance, was
named a finalist in theSalamander 2022 Fiction Contest.
(01:27):
She attended Phillips ExeterAcademy, Georgetown University,
and Columbia Law School.
She lives in Boulder, Colorado,and Park City, Utah, with her
husband, two sons, and greatDanes.
So enjoy this episode of Behindthe Stack.
So a couple things.
(01:48):
First of all, I loved the book.
I just, I thought it was, sofantastic.
So congratulations.
Kristin Koval (01:54):
That's so kind of you.
Thank you.
Brett Benner (02:00):
Before we get into it, I just had, like, some
questions about you.
So I know you attended phillipsExeter Academy, Georgetown, and
Columbia Law.
What kind of law did you study?
Kristin Koval (02:12):
So I, um, usually in law school, you, you mostly
focus on the prerequisitesinitially, and then I did a lot
of sort of international andhuman rights classes, because I
thought I might go into that andI ended up actually going into
corporate law and I worked, Iworked at one of the big New
(02:33):
York City sweatshops.
Which actually was full ofreally kind, lovely people, but
we all, it truly was asweatshop.
You work very hard.
and I did corporate law for, um,five years, you know, apologies
to my former law firm.
I was miserable.
I really did not like being acorporate lawyer and I switched,
(02:53):
and sort of retrained myself asa trust and estates lawyer and
tax lawyer.
Which was a much better fit forme because I'm a people person.
And as a trust and estateslawyer, you get to spend a lot
of time with, you know, peopleand their families and their
stories.
And so that was just right forme.
So that's what I did for most ofmy legal career.
Brett Benner (03:13):
Do you think that there was anything in your time
as a lawyer that aided you as awriter?
I mean, besides the obvious, andfor this, clearly there's
certain things you can pullupon,
Kristin Koval (03:23):
I think there were a couple of things.
One, which initially seemsstrange to me because I, one of
my favorite kinds of literatureis magical realism, especially
Latin American literature, youknow, Garcia Marquez and Borges,
and they tend to be very floweryand their, their language is so
lyrical.
And yet when I became a lawyer,especially when I was working
(03:47):
with, you know, people as atrust and estates lawyer, I was
constantly trying to explainthings in, layman's terms and
sort of, I never wanted to speakin legalese and I think that
made it easier for me to writeprose more efficiently.
Because I really don't like touse.
(04:07):
Too many words.
I just like to be efficient whenI write.
And so, and that's, that's sortof a strange effect that being a
lawyer had on my writing.
Um, and, and opposite from thekind of writer than I thought I
would be.
I thought I would be lyrical andI'm not lyrical.
I'm, I've been told a number oftimes, Oh, you're very efficient
with words.
And so that's my, that's thelegal effect.
Brett Benner (04:30):
You're like, it's called brevity.
Kristin Koval (04:31):
Yes, I try.
Brett Benner (04:32):
So then at what point did you make the switch?
Did you start to think like,Hey, you know what?
I really want to be doing this.
I really want to be writing.
Or was that something that hadalways kind of been underlying
even when you were in law?
Kristin Koval (04:46):
Oh my gosh, that, that I have wanted to write
since probably fourth grade.
Um, and I was a bookworm as achild.
All I did was read and myparents.
Always, they, they have thisstory to tell about the first
time we ever went to on a bigvacation and we went to Mexico
and I would stay in the hotelroom and, make myself a bed in
the bathtub with pillows andblankets and read all afternoon
(05:08):
while they were all out on thebeach.
so I, I was always a bookworm.
I was an English major incollege.
Um, and I just kind of went downthis road of.
Wanting to be a professionaland, kind of prove that I could
make it in the world, you know,I grew up in the late eighties,
early nineties, and I wanted toprove, Hey, I can be a
(05:30):
successful professional just aswell as a man can.
And so didn't really, I was kindof single mindedly focused on
that.
And I tried actually to do both.
And I tried three times to writea book while I was a lawyer.
Um, and, For the very first timeI actually tried while I was on
maternity leave with my son andhe was my first child.
(05:52):
And I thought, Oh, I'll have allthis free time on maternity
leave.
I'll write a whole book.
Meanwhile, I couldn't even findtime to take a shower.
So that, that try at a bookfailed.
Um, and then I tried again whenmy, I have two sons.
So, I tried again when they weremaybe sort of.
five and seven Um, and thatdidn't work because I had just
(06:14):
stopped being a corporate lawyerand switched into trust in the
state law.
And I said, forget it.
I'm just going to go be alawyer.
And then I got an offer, youknow, to go work at a law firm
in trust in the states.
And I thought, well, I can'tpass up that opportunity.
A paycheck.
So put it aside again.
Then I tried, a third time.
And I think the thing was forme, it was very difficult to be
(06:35):
a lawyer and a mother who wantedto coach soccer and do all that
stuff.
I just hadn't, I had no creativeenergy left.
And around sort of 2017, Istumbled into, a free writing
class in Boulder on PearlStreet.
And I came out of the class andI realized I, I have been
(06:55):
missing something very importantthrough all of these tries,
which is I had never taken acreative writing class.
In my entire life, somehow I gotthrough college with no creative
writing classes.
I had no writing community and Iwasn't giving myself the support
to do it.
And I started taking classes,cause the kids were older.
It was finally easier to do, butI was also still a little bit
(07:17):
unhappy at work as a lawyer.
And I realized I didn't want towake up when I was 80 and say, I
wish I would have tried.
And so I took the plunge in 2018and, gave myself a year, where I
would not be a lawyer and Iwould just focus on writing.
So I left my law firm.
(07:38):
I think everybody was My familywas shocked other than my
husband, greatest supporter inmy world.
But you know, my parents wereshocked.
My fellow partners were shocked.
And I had never been so happy inmy life.
The first day I sat down when Iwas no longer a lawyer and I
could simply write.
Brett Benner (07:56):
Now, did you tell everyone I'm taking a year and
I'm writing, or was it simplylike, this is not for me, I'm
just taking time.
Kristin Koval (08:02):
Um, I was not going to tell anybody.
And my husband said to me, youneed to own it.
You, you, if this is what youwant to do, you, you need to own
it because you need to own it toyourself as well.
And that was scary as.
I'll get out to say I want to gowrite a book.
when I didn't really have verymuch experience writing but I
(08:23):
did it and he was right.
I think owning it was the bestthing that I ever could have
done.
Brett Benner (08:28):
That's amazing.
And here we are.
Here we are.
Okay.
So for, for our viewers or forlisteners, do you have an
elevator pitch for the book?
Kristin Koval (08:37):
I do, I do.
So, um, The novel, Penitence, isset in a small town in southwest
Colorado, and a little bit inNew York City as well, and it
opens on the immediate aftermathof a 13 year old girl, Nora,
having shot and killed her 14year old brother, Nico, and her
(08:58):
parents are here.
Of course, distraught, they'reangry, they're full of blame and
guilt, but they're alsostruggling with, a conflicting
desire to protect her against anoverzealous DA who wants to
charge her as an adult, eventhough she's only 13 and send
her to prison for the rest ofher life.
So they recruit a local lawyernamed Martine, who was on the
(09:21):
verge of retiring.
And she doesn't have muchexperience, so she brings in her
son Julian, because he's asuccessful criminal defense
attorney in New York.
The problem is, they have, thetwo families have been estranged
for a long time, and they have acomplicated history, and so as
the novel progresses, all of thecharacters are sort of working
through their complicated pastand present, and they're trying
(09:44):
to figure out whether they canever arrive at forgiveness, and
if so, how.
Brett Benner (09:49):
You speak about this a little bit in the
afterwards, can you say, wheredid this idea come from?
Or what was the genesis of thisfor you?
Kristin Koval (09:56):
so really the genesis was twofold.
The first, the first is thatI've had really.
impactful experiences withforgiveness in my own life, both
forgiving other people and, andbeing forgiven.
It was a feeling that I reallywanted to be able to talk about
and, and write about, but it'salso really hard to write about
(10:16):
forgiveness without soundingpreachy.
And I decided to start with afratricide because you are
putting the parents in both theeasiest and hardest position
possible to forgive.
Hardest because they've justlost a child and the other child
is responsible for it.
Easiest because if they don'tforgive, they will lose the, the
(10:40):
second child.
And it seemed like a good way toreally talk about how
complicated forgiveness is andyet how rewarding once it
actually happens.
So that was the first part, sortof this desire to talk about
forgiveness.
The second driving force, when Istarted thinking about a
fratricide was, I had seen afratricide in, in the news in
(11:03):
Colorado Springs in like.
I think 2017 and then startednoticing more of those stories
when they, came up on the news.
There was, you know, one inparticular that really kind of
caught my attention.
And I decided to research it alittle bit because it's not.
It's not something anybodyreally ever thinks about.
I mean, it's in the Bible, Cainand Abel, and it's in mythology
(11:24):
with Romulus and Remus, and, youknow, it's in all the monarchies
all over the world.
But in modern days, we don'ttend to think about it.
And yet, once I startedresearching it, there were a ton
of cases of fratricide.
I couldn't believe how many Ifound.
I think it just, People don'treally want to talk about it.
And I, I found cases with reallyyoung perpetrators, 12, 11, 10,
(11:48):
one nine year old, and twins,um, and every time I.
I looked at these cases, myheart was really out there for
the parents, um, because I, Ihave two sons and, you know, it
just makes you think, what wouldyou do and how, how would you
get through it?
And, it just seemed like theright, right way to talk about
forgiveness.
Brett Benner (12:09):
And this is what I so appreciated about the book,
you know, and it's gettingcomparisons with, Little Fires
Everywhere with Ann Patchett.
And it's interesting because Ialso noticed, I think in your
afterwards, you, you speakabout, Angie Kim.
And, I adore Angie.
And it, and it reminds me, avery much of something in the
Angie Kim world, of her books aswell.
(12:30):
One of the things I soappreciated about your
storytelling is it's not neat.
And by that, I mean, there's nobow at the end.
Everything wrapped up and theyall lived happily ever after.
It's very real.
Uh, it really puts you in thatplace to think about, I think,
especially for a parent, howwould you deal with a situation,
(12:52):
how, in so many facets, becauseyou're talking about access to
guns, you're talking aboutblame, and, so I really
appreciated it and it made itmuch more realistic and
thoughtful that, that there isno easy answers with any of this
and you get to the end and it'slike, okay.
Um, but I just think that's lifeand, and, and it's very real.
Kristin Koval (13:16):
Well, and you know, I think, I think the thing
is, is that we all have Badthings happen to us in life.
And we also all make mistakes,whether or not we want to admit
it.
Probably most of us have madebig mistakes too.
I mean, we all make smallmistakes, but I think most
people in their life have madeat least one big mistake, you
(13:37):
know, maybe not a murder, but.
People have done something wrongthat they feel bad about, and
you have to figure out how topick up and move on from it.
and there are consequences tomistakes.
You can't really avoid thoseconsequences, and it's not
always fair to avoidconsequences.
That's why we have criminallaws.
But I also think that we need torecognize that we are all guilty
(14:00):
of these mistakes and, andfigure out how, how do we let
each other move on, and how dowe let ourselves move on?
Brett Benner (14:08):
Well, and as you say in the book, as one of the
characters says, that you're notdefined by one particular act or
one particular thing does notdefine your, your whole being as
a person.
And I think that's reallyresonated with me as well.
Because like you just said,everyone is capable, everyone
has, in a life there are thingsthat are going to happen that
are just inevitable, one way orthe other.
(14:31):
You know, the book is so muchabout, forgiveness, but there's
such a part of a book that it'sabout secrets and, so many of
these characters are holding onto something.
And of course, we're not goingto get into any kind of
spoilers, but, almost everyonehas something.
Inside them, driving them canyou talk a little bit about
that?
Kristin Koval (14:49):
Yeah, well, and, and that was actually part of
the reason that I wrote thesecrets that exist inside of
everybody.
That was part of the reason Idecided to write the novel from
multiple perspectives, becauseyou wouldn't necessarily have
had such a good look at that ifyou, Really only saw the novel
from one person's point of view.
(15:10):
And much like mistakes, I thinkwe all carry secrets inside of
us and they help form who we areand how we live.
And sometimes those secrets arereally painful.
Because other people don't knowabout them, other people don't
necessarily understand what aperson is going through and
(15:31):
therefore don't have empathy fortheir behavior.
Brett Benner (15:35):
In the construction of the book, I'm so
curious, did you have beats veryclearly delineated for your
characters?
Did you know a lot of these?
For lack of a better word,revelations from the get go, or
were there some things as youwent through the writing you
thought, Oh, this will addanother color.
This could add something else.
This could deepen thisrelationship.
Kristin Koval (15:55):
A little bit of both.
To be honest, I had, you know,when I started, I knew exactly
who each person was.
As a person.
And so that was very clearly inmy head.
And I also knew what the firstscene would be and what the last
scene would be.
And I had to figure out how toget from point a to point B.
(16:18):
You know, when I started doingthis, Um, I assumed that Nora
would be in the juvenilecriminal justice system and,
that's not actually the case.
Sometimes I, I get readers who,who say, how, how could a 13
year old get into a positionwhere a district attorney would
charge her as an adult?
(16:38):
But that's just the reality ofthe criminal justice system.
And it happens, um, all the timethat DAs will charge children as
adults.
In fact, in certain States likeNew York, and I think California
as well, if a 13 year oldcommits a murder, they're
automatically tried as an adult.
Brett Benner (16:54):
That's crazy.
Kristin Koval (16:55):
Yeah.
Um, It, it may, I could be wrongin California.
It's hard to keep track becausecriminal laws are different in
every single state.
In Colorado, you can stillcharge a 13 year old, but it's
discretionary.
And I know that in New York,it's still mandatory that a 13
year old gets charged as anadult in the case of a murder,
because that's what happened inthe case of that 16 year old.
(17:19):
stabbing of the Columbia studentby a 13 and a 14 year old, maybe
two years ago or a year ago.
I can't remember what it was.
California may have changed it,but at any rate, so I had to
sort of revise the, um,logistical beats to account for,
nor proceeding through an adultsystem and not the juvenile
(17:40):
justice system.
And as far as the, the humanaspect of it, some of that
developed as, as time went onand I tried to figure out who
each character was.
And there were some charactersthat, I maybe wrote to be a
little bit less likableinitially.
And then as things went on, Irealized I like them a little
bit more than that, and I neededto change some things about how
(18:01):
I was portraying them.
Brett Benner (18:02):
I I was so curious.
If there were some charactersthat you, and I want to get into
some specific characters in asecond, but I wondered if there
was some characters that youheld more sympathy for than
others, Sympathy, or maybe,maybe that's too strong, maybe
empathy, maybe a bit moreempathy for than others has
that.
Kristin Koval (18:23):
Well, let's talk about the people I had the least
amount of empathy for.
And I, I have no, I have no ideawhy I, I didn't like David ever.
And he, he's actually not a badguy, he's just a complicated
guy.
Brett Benner (18:34):
For, for our listeners or viewers, David is
Angie.
Yes.
Yes.
Kristin Koval (18:38):
David is Angie's husband.
Um, and a lot of readers havesaid to me, I don't like Angie
at all.
And I don't, dislike her the wayother readers do.
Um, I think she is a complicatedperson like David, like Julian,
like Martine, they all have donethese complicated things and it
comes out in different ways andat different times.
(19:00):
And so, yeah, so actually there,there's nobody that I have, um,
no empathy for because I, Iwrote all of them.
Might have the most empathy forJulian.
Brett Benner (19:10):
Okay.
So I want to talk about Jillian,but I also want to talk about
Angie, and, and I have to say toall of you readers who didn't
like her, I mean, let's, like,give Angie a break for a moment,
okay?
This is a mother who, you know,her daughter, Her son, she has a
mother that she's dealing withwho has Alzheimer's.
(19:31):
Her son had juvenileHuntington's disease.
Um, there's a lot going on.
Kristin Koval (19:37):
Yeah.
She has, she has, she has a lotgoing on and she gave up her,
her dreams to care for all ofthese people in her life that
need a lot of care.
and also, you know, going backto forgiveness, it's complicated
and, and everybody deals with.
Things that happen differentlyand forgiveness doesn't come
(19:58):
right away or sometimes at allfor some people.
Brett Benner (20:01):
Yeah, I found her very sympathetic and I, I was
with her journey so much of thetime.
It's such an interesting thingbecause, you know, the book
shifts back and forth as yousaid earlier in the past and in
the present.
And you managed to couple like alove story here and a very
complicated love story.
Um, that gets threaded throughhere that's.
(20:22):
tinged with tragedy, whichbecomes a big part of it for
Angie.
Now you talked about, working inthis sweat shop effectively.
So you lived in New York forfour years you were there.
Kristin Koval (20:32):
Um, so I went to law school there and then, uh,
that was, that was three yearsand then worked there for four.
So I was there for seven yearstotal,
Brett Benner (20:39):
but did you grow up in Colorado?
Kristin Koval (20:41):
No, I grew up all over the East coast.
My husband and I moved out todeliberately.
We did things backwards.
Instead of getting offered a joband moving someplace, we said,
where would we like to live forthe rest of our lives?
And then found jobs.
Brett Benner (20:58):
Okay, so I'm curious.
And I'm pretty sure I alreadyhave the answer to this, but,
one of the things in the, bookis these characters, Angie and
both Jillian, growing up in thistown and then moving to New York
and the past and, and then kindof the return to their small
town life.
Are you more of a city person oran open space person?
Kristin Koval (21:19):
I'm more of an open space person.
I mean, I would move back to theEast Coast Or, or get a place
there or something.
If both my kids ended up therebecause I love my children would
like to see them regularly.
But I love to be outside.
And in fact, that was one of thedriving forces of moving to
Colorado.
I love central park.
(21:40):
I think it's this great,beautiful park in New York city,
but I like to be in theoutdoors.
With nobody around me.
I love to hike and ski and bikeand trail run and, Colorado
doesn't have as many people,which is, you know, kind of
nice.
It's a little quieter.
And I love New York and, youknow, both of my sons happen to
(22:01):
be there now.
And so it's, it's fun to gothere and, you know, get to eat
all the fabulous foodeverywhere.
And, it's so vibrant and, I justlove the life there.
It's, it's so diverse in everyway, shape and form.
It's a great place, but I likeColorado
Brett Benner (22:17):
and Utah.
I ask that too, because As I'vegotten older, I lived in New
York for a few years and, youknow, I'm in Los Angeles now,
but we're moving, um, in thenext, eight months, I've been in
big cities and I just want skyand trees and less people.
And so again, I, you know, I, itwas just watching Angie's
trajectory in this, thischaracter of this young woman
(22:39):
going to New York and followingher dream of being an artist.
And, I personally, I tapped intothat.
I was an actor when I came outof school and that's absolutely
what I wanted.
I loved New York, but I was justready to go.
And so listening to you talk andI, I noticed on your Instagram,
you, you have a lot of pictureseither, you know, outdoors and,
(23:00):
and, um, there's something aboutthat, that I'm so looking
forward to.
Kristin Koval (23:05):
Well, congratulations.
I think you'll really like it.
Brett Benner (23:07):
I'm excited.
Um, I I'm so digressing, allright.
So Julianne, He's another, Iloved this character.
Can you talk a little bit abouthim for our, for our listeners?
Who he is now and kind of who hewas.
Kristin Koval (23:20):
I can say that Julian goes through a big
transformation.
and I think like most of us, um,I think that Julian starts out.
As somebody who is very focusedon being a skier, and, you know,
going to college.
And initially you know, when Istarted to write, I thought,
maybe he will, you know, besomebody who is headed to the
(23:42):
Olympics or be that good orsomething like that.
And as we know that, that kindof goes by the wayside for
certain reasons.
And he ends up being a characterwho is very devoted to, as a
lawyer, making sure that hisclients have the best
representation they can.
And it was really important tome to portray him in a way that
(24:07):
would also help readersunderstand how important
criminal defense attorneys are.
I think sometimes they get a badrap because A little bit in our
country, even though we saysomebody is innocent until
they're proven guilty to someextent, I think that, you know,
in the media and in socialmedia, when somebody is accused
of something, They're guilty.
The accusation essentiallyrenders them guilty.
(24:29):
And that's what innocent untilproven guilty was meant to
deter.
But the attitude is still outthere.
And so it was important to methat Julian be the kind of
criminal defense attorney whogave His clients, the best
chance to be treated fairlywithin the criminal justice
system.
Brett Benner (24:48):
And their relationship, he and Andy's
relationship is just, it's sointeresting to me.
When they first come together,you know, as it slowly gets
revealed, everything that existsbetween them it's heartbreaking
in a way, because, I don't know,maybe I'm just some sappy
romantic thinking, Oh, my God, Iwant them to, reconnect.
I want them to, be together.
(25:08):
Which just might be the romanticin me.
Kristin Koval (25:12):
I initially, I wanted them to, to reconnect as
well.
Um, and that just wasn't how ithappened in the end.
Um, and that also that didn'tseem fair both to his current
wife or to the circumstancesunder which they parted
basically.
Brett Benner (25:30):
Jillian's mother Martine, she is just a terrific
character too.
I just thought here's this womanwho is a lawyer, but she
understands her limitations.
She's older.
She, by all, stretches theimagination.
She probably should just beretired, but she's asked to do
this.
She's just an incrediblespitfire.
Kristin Koval (25:50):
And, you know, it's really funny because when I
first started this, I didn'trealize how much people would
connect with Martine, and I havehad a lot of people say to me,
why don't you just write a wholebook from Martine's point of
view?
Um, people really like her.
Brett Benner (26:04):
She could be a complete standalone.
I don't know if you've evenstarted to germinate on, what
you might do next, but do youthink that stick to something
that has.
Uh, legal area to it, or do youthink you'll expand beyond or if
it has it not gone far yet?
Kristin Koval (26:23):
Um, no, it has gone that far actually.
So I, I wrote another bookbefore this book and that one
was had zero bits of, oflegalese or legal, legal issues
in it.
I, I just, and that was more ofa satire.
But that was me learning how towrite.
So I think that, that book'sgonna stay, on my computer in a
hidden file.
(26:43):
I probably will have somethinglegal related for my next one,
although, you know, even withthis one, although there are
legal aspects to it, that's notthe main point.
Brett Benner (26:53):
It's not, no,
Kristin Koval (26:54):
and I, I didn't want it to be the main point.
You know, we talked a little bitabout Angie Kim and her first
book, miracle Creek.
Mostly took place or largelytook place in a courtroom and I
love that book, but I also Idon't know that I have the
experience to do that kind of alegal novel.
Just because I was never acriminal attorney.
(27:16):
I never practiced criminal lawor spent enough time with it to.
To do that as well as Angie did.
But at the same time, I was alawyer for a lot of years and
there are a lot of interestingthings in the law to talk about
and address.
So I, I kind of already knowwhat I'm doing.
I'm I've got reams and reams ofnotes for my next novel and
(27:39):
about 30 or 40 pages written,and it does have some legal
aspects to it.
Brett Benner (27:44):
and I think for, Our listeners and our viewers,
the thing about this book isit's not any one thing.
I mean, I would hate forsomebody to say, well, it's a
thriller.
It's not.
There is a mystery component toit, certainly.
But I, I looked at it as thesame way I kind of view, Liz
Moore's books
Kristin Koval (28:02):
which I love.
Those are great.
Brett Benner (28:03):
Yeah.
But they're literary novels thatcertainly, the God in the Woods
had this mystery about it, butit's not what I would call a
thriller, and neither is this,there is a, a mystery component
to it, but it is, like I said,there's a family story, there's
a love story.
It manages to be and convey alot of different things, which
(28:23):
is really, really
cool.
Kristin Koval (28:25):
Um, you know, I love to write.
I absolutely, I, I, I never wantto shade any part of my legal
career.
Except I, I didn't really likebeing a corporate lawyer.
It was not a, wasn't really agood match for my, my
personality.
But I love to write.
You know, when you're a lawyer,you look at your watch all day
long in six minute increments.
And, I don't do that when Iwrite.
(28:48):
I just sit down and if I'm inthe middle of something, I'll
write for 15 or 16 hours and notget bored and not feel like I
have to do anything other thaneat a lot of chocolate.
Which I do because chocolate's afood group.
I really enjoy it so much, soI'm, I'm so lucky to get to do
this.
Brett Benner (29:05):
Yeah, well, it's like, it's like the character of
Angie in the book, who's apainter.
It's, it's your painting.
It's your art.
It's your creative expression.
And, and honestly, we're all theluckier for it.
it's your painting.
It's your art.
It's your, it's creativeexpression.
And, and honestly, we're all theluckier for it.
Kristin Koval (29:24):
Oh, thank you.
Brett Benner (29:26):
Well, this has been wonderful.
And, again, Penitence, it'sfantastic.
So go buy it, get it from anindependent bookstore.
If you can, I will also have thebook linked in my bookshop.
org page.
Congratulations on all of this.
I will say this is a fantasticbook for book clubs because
(29:47):
there is so much to dissect andtalk about.
So, So get it, talk about it.
I'm so excited to see what youwrite next.
Kristin Koval (29:56):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much for having meand I, I wish you the best of
luck with your move and I, Ihope that I mean, it seems like
your, your house is, iscertainly okay.
And I hope the last couple ofweeks haven't been too traumatic
for you.
Brett Benner (30:10):
It's been strange.
It's really strange.
The mood, the first few days,the clouds, the, you know, the
cloud cover, the smoke cover,and, what's been very,
Heartening is the city'sresponse to each other and the
way that everybody has cometogether and really shown up for
each other, which is, you know,to make a cliche statement
(30:33):
heartwarming and but it reallyis because it makes you really,
uh, It affirms the goodness ofpeople and that we all are here
for each other.
And that's, and that really, Ithink it's so important.
And, that at the end of the day,it's, you know, it's not
politics.
it's not about this or that.
It's just that we're all human.
(30:53):
Everyone is just helping eachother.
And I think that's the mostimportant thing.
That's been, if there's a giftin this in any way, that's
really been it.
But, anyway, thank you again.
Kristin Koval (31:02):
I really enjoyed talking to you and I love your
show.
I've listened to a lot of theepisodes, so.
Brett Benner (31:06):
Oh, good.
I'm so glad.
All right.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday.
Enjoy that gorgeous ColoradoAir.
Thank you.
And space, and I'll see you.
Kristin Koval (31:15):
Thank you.
Hey, everybody, it's Brett and welcome or
(00:01):
welcome back to behind thestack.
So I hope you all had a goodweek or are having a good week
wherever you are.
Crazy weather.
here in the US.
Crazy weather everywhere,frankly, but, freezing cold
temperatures, fires inCalifornia.
It's a little crazy.
Anyway, I hope you're allstaying safe.
I hope you're all staying warm.
(00:23):
I hope you're all cuddling upwith a good book.
And to add to that, I have a fewtitles that are coming out today
that I wanted to highlight.
The first is Good Dirt byCharmaine Wilkerson, the author
of Black Cake, which I reallyenjoy.
This is her new book.
Also for you thriller fans,Frida McFadden.
The crash is out today.
And finally, Edmund White has anonfiction book, the loves of my
(00:46):
life, which is kind of a, uh,recounting of his sexual
conquests.
Speaking of books out today, mynext guest, her debut book, and.
Her name is Kristen Koval.
The book is Penitence.
It's really terrific.
And, we had a really greatconversation, a little bit about
Kristen.
(01:06):
She is a former lawyer whoalways wanted to be a writer,
but initially wandered downother paths.
While writing Penitence, shecompleted a 12 month novel
generator class at CatapultBooks.
She's an alumna of Suwannee'sWriter Conference and.
Aspen Summer Words, and hershort story, Inheritance, was
named a finalist in theSalamander 2022 Fiction Contest.
(01:27):
She attended Phillips ExeterAcademy, Georgetown University,
and Columbia Law School.
She lives in Boulder, Colorado,and Park City, Utah, with her
husband, two sons, and greatDanes.
So enjoy this episode of Behindthe Stack.
So a couple things.
(01:48):
First of all, I loved the book.
I just, I thought it was, sofantastic.
So congratulations.
Kristin Koval (01:54):
That's so kind of you.
Thank you.
Brett Benner (02:00):
Before we get into it, I just had, like, some
questions about you.
So I know you attended phillipsExeter Academy, Georgetown, and
Columbia Law.
What kind of law did you study?
Kristin Koval (02:12):
So I, um, usually in law school, you, you mostly
focus on the prerequisitesinitially, and then I did a lot
of sort of international andhuman rights classes, because I
thought I might go into that andI ended up actually going into
corporate law and I worked, Iworked at one of the big New
(02:33):
York City sweatshops.
Which actually was full ofreally kind, lovely people, but
we all, it truly was asweatshop.
You work very hard.
and I did corporate law for, um,five years, you know, apologies
to my former law firm.
I was miserable.
I really did not like being acorporate lawyer and I switched,
(02:53):
and sort of retrained myself asa trust and estates lawyer and
tax lawyer.
Which was a much better fit forme because I'm a people person.
And as a trust and estateslawyer, you get to spend a lot
of time with, you know, peopleand their families and their
stories.
And so that was just right forme.
So that's what I did for most ofmy legal career.
Brett Benner (03:13):
Do you think that there was anything in your time
as a lawyer that aided you as awriter?
I mean, besides the obvious, andfor this, clearly there's
certain things you can pullupon,
Kristin Koval (03:23):
I think there were a couple of things.
One, which initially seemsstrange to me because I, one of
my favorite kinds of literatureis magical realism, especially
Latin American literature, youknow, Garcia Marquez and Borges,
and they tend to be very floweryand their, their language is so
lyrical.
And yet when I became a lawyer,especially when I was working
(03:47):
with, you know, people as atrust and estates lawyer, I was
constantly trying to explainthings in, layman's terms and
sort of, I never wanted to speakin legalese and I think that
made it easier for me to writeprose more efficiently.
Because I really don't like touse.
(04:07):
Too many words.
I just like to be efficient whenI write.
And so, and that's, that's sortof a strange effect that being a
lawyer had on my writing.
Um, and, and opposite from thekind of writer than I thought I
would be.
I thought I would be lyrical andI'm not lyrical.
I'm, I've been told a number oftimes, Oh, you're very efficient
with words.
And so that's my, that's thelegal effect.
Brett Benner (04:30):
You're like, it's called brevity.
Kristin Koval (04:31):
Yes, I try.
Brett Benner (04:32):
So then at what point did you make the switch?
Did you start to think like,Hey, you know what?
I really want to be doing this.
I really want to be writing.
Or was that something that hadalways kind of been underlying
even when you were in law?
Kristin Koval (04:46):
Oh my gosh, that, that I have wanted to write
since probably fourth grade.
Um, and I was a bookworm as achild.
All I did was read and myparents.
Always, they, they have thisstory to tell about the first
time we ever went to on a bigvacation and we went to Mexico
and I would stay in the hotelroom and, make myself a bed in
the bathtub with pillows andblankets and read all afternoon
(05:08):
while they were all out on thebeach.
so I, I was always a bookworm.
I was an English major incollege.
Um, and I just kind of went downthis road of.
Wanting to be a professionaland, kind of prove that I could
make it in the world, you know,I grew up in the late eighties,
early nineties, and I wanted toprove, Hey, I can be a
(05:30):
successful professional just aswell as a man can.
And so didn't really, I was kindof single mindedly focused on
that.
And I tried actually to do both.
And I tried three times to writea book while I was a lawyer.
Um, and, For the very first timeI actually tried while I was on
maternity leave with my son andhe was my first child.
(05:52):
And I thought, Oh, I'll have allthis free time on maternity
leave.
I'll write a whole book.
Meanwhile, I couldn't even findtime to take a shower.
So that, that try at a bookfailed.
Um, and then I tried again whenmy, I have two sons.
So, I tried again when they weremaybe sort of.
five and seven Um, and thatdidn't work because I had just
(06:14):
stopped being a corporate lawyerand switched into trust in the
state law.
And I said, forget it.
I'm just going to go be alawyer.
And then I got an offer, youknow, to go work at a law firm
in trust in the states.
And I thought, well, I can'tpass up that opportunity.
A paycheck.
So put it aside again.
Then I tried, a third time.
And I think the thing was forme, it was very difficult to be
(06:35):
a lawyer and a mother who wantedto coach soccer and do all that
stuff.
I just hadn't, I had no creativeenergy left.
And around sort of 2017, Istumbled into, a free writing
class in Boulder on PearlStreet.
And I came out of the class andI realized I, I have been
(06:55):
missing something very importantthrough all of these tries,
which is I had never taken acreative writing class.
In my entire life, somehow I gotthrough college with no creative
writing classes.
I had no writing community and Iwasn't giving myself the support
to do it.
And I started taking classes,cause the kids were older.
It was finally easier to do, butI was also still a little bit
(07:17):
unhappy at work as a lawyer.
And I realized I didn't want towake up when I was 80 and say, I
wish I would have tried.
And so I took the plunge in 2018and, gave myself a year, where I
would not be a lawyer and Iwould just focus on writing.
So I left my law firm.
(07:38):
I think everybody was My familywas shocked other than my
husband, greatest supporter inmy world.
But you know, my parents wereshocked.
My fellow partners were shocked.
And I had never been so happy inmy life.
The first day I sat down when Iwas no longer a lawyer and I
could simply write.
Brett Benner (07:56):
Now, did you tell everyone I'm taking a year and
I'm writing, or was it simplylike, this is not for me, I'm
just taking time.
Kristin Koval (08:02):
Um, I was not going to tell anybody.
And my husband said to me, youneed to own it.
You, you, if this is what youwant to do, you, you need to own
it because you need to own it toyourself as well.
And that was scary as.
I'll get out to say I want to gowrite a book.
when I didn't really have verymuch experience writing but I
(08:23):
did it and he was right.
I think owning it was the bestthing that I ever could have
done.
Brett Benner (08:28):
That's amazing.
And here we are.
Here we are.
Okay.
So for, for our viewers or forlisteners, do you have an
elevator pitch for the book?
Kristin Koval (08:37):
I do, I do.
So, um, The novel, Penitence, isset in a small town in southwest
Colorado, and a little bit inNew York City as well, and it
opens on the immediate aftermathof a 13 year old girl, Nora,
having shot and killed her 14year old brother, Nico, and her
(08:58):
parents are here.
Of course, distraught, they'reangry, they're full of blame and
guilt, but they're alsostruggling with, a conflicting
desire to protect her against anoverzealous DA who wants to
charge her as an adult, eventhough she's only 13 and send
her to prison for the rest ofher life.
So they recruit a local lawyernamed Martine, who was on the
(09:21):
verge of retiring.
And she doesn't have muchexperience, so she brings in her
son Julian, because he's asuccessful criminal defense
attorney in New York.
The problem is, they have, thetwo families have been estranged
for a long time, and they have acomplicated history, and so as
the novel progresses, all of thecharacters are sort of working
through their complicated pastand present, and they're trying
(09:44):
to figure out whether they canever arrive at forgiveness, and
if so, how.
Brett Benner (09:49):
You speak about this a little bit in the
afterwards, can you say, wheredid this idea come from?
Or what was the genesis of thisfor you?
Kristin Koval (09:56):
so really the genesis was twofold.
The first, the first is thatI've had really.
impactful experiences withforgiveness in my own life, both
forgiving other people and, andbeing forgiven.
It was a feeling that I reallywanted to be able to talk about
and, and write about, but it'salso really hard to write about
(10:16):
forgiveness without soundingpreachy.
And I decided to start with afratricide because you are
putting the parents in both theeasiest and hardest position
possible to forgive.
Hardest because they've justlost a child and the other child
is responsible for it.
Easiest because if they don'tforgive, they will lose the, the
(10:40):
second child.
And it seemed like a good way toreally talk about how
complicated forgiveness is andyet how rewarding once it
actually happens.
So that was the first part, sortof this desire to talk about
forgiveness.
The second driving force, when Istarted thinking about a
fratricide was, I had seen afratricide in, in the news in
(11:03):
Colorado Springs in like.
I think 2017 and then startednoticing more of those stories
when they, came up on the news.
There was, you know, one inparticular that really kind of
caught my attention.
And I decided to research it alittle bit because it's not.
It's not something anybodyreally ever thinks about.
I mean, it's in the Bible, Cainand Abel, and it's in mythology
(11:24):
with Romulus and Remus, and, youknow, it's in all the monarchies
all over the world.
But in modern days, we don'ttend to think about it.
And yet, once I startedresearching it, there were a ton
of cases of fratricide.
I couldn't believe how many Ifound.
I think it just, People don'treally want to talk about it.
And I, I found cases with reallyyoung perpetrators, 12, 11, 10,
(11:48):
one nine year old, and twins,um, and every time I.
I looked at these cases, myheart was really out there for
the parents, um, because I, Ihave two sons and, you know, it
just makes you think, what wouldyou do and how, how would you
get through it?
And, it just seemed like theright, right way to talk about
forgiveness.
Brett Benner (12:09):
And this is what I so appreciated about the book,
you know, and it's gettingcomparisons with, Little Fires
Everywhere with Ann Patchett.
And it's interesting because Ialso noticed, I think in your
afterwards, you, you speakabout, Angie Kim.
And, I adore Angie.
And it, and it reminds me, avery much of something in the
Angie Kim world, of her books aswell.
(12:30):
One of the things I soappreciated about your
storytelling is it's not neat.
And by that, I mean, there's nobow at the end.
Everything wrapped up and theyall lived happily ever after.
It's very real.
Uh, it really puts you in thatplace to think about, I think,
especially for a parent, howwould you deal with a situation,
(12:52):
how, in so many facets, becauseyou're talking about access to
guns, you're talking aboutblame, and, so I really
appreciated it and it made itmuch more realistic and
thoughtful that, that there isno easy answers with any of this
and you get to the end and it'slike, okay.
Um, but I just think that's lifeand, and, and it's very real.
Kristin Koval (13:16):
Well, and you know, I think, I think the thing
is, is that we all have Badthings happen to us in life.
And we also all make mistakes,whether or not we want to admit
it.
Probably most of us have madebig mistakes too.
I mean, we all make smallmistakes, but I think most
people in their life have madeat least one big mistake, you
(13:37):
know, maybe not a murder, but.
People have done something wrongthat they feel bad about, and
you have to figure out how topick up and move on from it.
and there are consequences tomistakes.
You can't really avoid thoseconsequences, and it's not
always fair to avoidconsequences.
That's why we have criminallaws.
But I also think that we need torecognize that we are all guilty
(14:00):
of these mistakes and, andfigure out how, how do we let
each other move on, and how dowe let ourselves move on?
Brett Benner (14:08):
Well, and as you say in the book, as one of the
characters says, that you're notdefined by one particular act or
one particular thing does notdefine your, your whole being as
a person.
And I think that's reallyresonated with me as well.
Because like you just said,everyone is capable, everyone
has, in a life there are thingsthat are going to happen that
are just inevitable, one way orthe other.
(14:31):
You know, the book is so muchabout, forgiveness, but there's
such a part of a book that it'sabout secrets and, so many of
these characters are holding onto something.
And of course, we're not goingto get into any kind of
spoilers, but, almost everyonehas something.
Inside them, driving them canyou talk a little bit about
that?
Kristin Koval (14:49):
Yeah, well, and, and that was actually part of
the reason that I wrote thesecrets that exist inside of
everybody.
That was part of the reason Idecided to write the novel from
multiple perspectives, becauseyou wouldn't necessarily have
had such a good look at that ifyou, Really only saw the novel
from one person's point of view.
(15:10):
And much like mistakes, I thinkwe all carry secrets inside of
us and they help form who we areand how we live.
And sometimes those secrets arereally painful.
Because other people don't knowabout them, other people don't
necessarily understand what aperson is going through and
(15:31):
therefore don't have empathy fortheir behavior.
Brett Benner (15:35):
In the construction of the book, I'm so
curious, did you have beats veryclearly delineated for your
characters?
Did you know a lot of these?
For lack of a better word,revelations from the get go, or
were there some things as youwent through the writing you
thought, Oh, this will addanother color.
This could add something else.
This could deepen thisrelationship.
Kristin Koval (15:55):
A little bit of both.
To be honest, I had, you know,when I started, I knew exactly
who each person was.
As a person.
And so that was very clearly inmy head.
And I also knew what the firstscene would be and what the last
scene would be.
And I had to figure out how toget from point a to point B.
(16:18):
You know, when I started doingthis, Um, I assumed that Nora
would be in the juvenilecriminal justice system and,
that's not actually the case.
Sometimes I, I get readers who,who say, how, how could a 13
year old get into a positionwhere a district attorney would
charge her as an adult?
(16:38):
But that's just the reality ofthe criminal justice system.
And it happens, um, all the timethat DAs will charge children as
adults.
In fact, in certain States likeNew York, and I think California
as well, if a 13 year oldcommits a murder, they're
automatically tried as an adult.
Brett Benner (16:54):
That's crazy.
Kristin Koval (16:55):
Yeah.
Um, It, it may, I could be wrongin California.
It's hard to keep track becausecriminal laws are different in
every single state.
In Colorado, you can stillcharge a 13 year old, but it's
discretionary.
And I know that in New York,it's still mandatory that a 13
year old gets charged as anadult in the case of a murder,
because that's what happened inthe case of that 16 year old.
(17:19):
stabbing of the Columbia studentby a 13 and a 14 year old, maybe
two years ago or a year ago.
I can't remember what it was.
California may have changed it,but at any rate, so I had to
sort of revise the, um,logistical beats to account for,
nor proceeding through an adultsystem and not the juvenile
(17:40):
justice system.
And as far as the, the humanaspect of it, some of that
developed as, as time went onand I tried to figure out who
each character was.
And there were some charactersthat, I maybe wrote to be a
little bit less likableinitially.
And then as things went on, Irealized I like them a little
bit more than that, and I neededto change some things about how
(18:01):
I was portraying them.
Brett Benner (18:02):
I I was so curious.
If there were some charactersthat you, and I want to get into
some specific characters in asecond, but I wondered if there
was some characters that youheld more sympathy for than
others, Sympathy, or maybe,maybe that's too strong, maybe
empathy, maybe a bit moreempathy for than others has
that.
Kristin Koval (18:23):
Well, let's talk about the people I had the least
amount of empathy for.
And I, I have no, I have no ideawhy I, I didn't like David ever.
And he, he's actually not a badguy, he's just a complicated
guy.
Brett Benner (18:34):
For, for our listeners or viewers, David is
Angie.
Yes.
Yes.
Kristin Koval (18:38):
David is Angie's husband.
Um, and a lot of readers havesaid to me, I don't like Angie
at all.
And I don't, dislike her the wayother readers do.
Um, I think she is a complicatedperson like David, like Julian,
like Martine, they all have donethese complicated things and it
comes out in different ways andat different times.
(19:00):
And so, yeah, so actually there,there's nobody that I have, um,
no empathy for because I, Iwrote all of them.
Might have the most empathy forJulian.
Brett Benner (19:10):
Okay.
So I want to talk about Jillian,but I also want to talk about
Angie, and, and I have to say toall of you readers who didn't
like her, I mean, let's, like,give Angie a break for a moment,
okay?
This is a mother who, you know,her daughter, Her son, she has a
mother that she's dealing withwho has Alzheimer's.
(19:31):
Her son had juvenileHuntington's disease.
Um, there's a lot going on.
Kristin Koval (19:37):
Yeah.
She has, she has, she has a lotgoing on and she gave up her,
her dreams to care for all ofthese people in her life that
need a lot of care.
and also, you know, going backto forgiveness, it's complicated
and, and everybody deals with.
Things that happen differentlyand forgiveness doesn't come
(19:58):
right away or sometimes at allfor some people.
Brett Benner (20:01):
Yeah, I found her very sympathetic and I, I was
with her journey so much of thetime.
It's such an interesting thingbecause, you know, the book
shifts back and forth as yousaid earlier in the past and in
the present.
And you managed to couple like alove story here and a very
complicated love story.
Um, that gets threaded throughhere that's.
(20:22):
tinged with tragedy, whichbecomes a big part of it for
Angie.
Now you talked about, working inthis sweat shop effectively.
So you lived in New York forfour years you were there.
Kristin Koval (20:32):
Um, so I went to law school there and then, uh,
that was, that was three yearsand then worked there for four.
So I was there for seven yearstotal,
Brett Benner (20:39):
but did you grow up in Colorado?
Kristin Koval (20:41):
No, I grew up all over the East coast.
My husband and I moved out todeliberately.
We did things backwards.
Instead of getting offered a joband moving someplace, we said,
where would we like to live forthe rest of our lives?
And then found jobs.
Brett Benner (20:58):
Okay, so I'm curious.
And I'm pretty sure I alreadyhave the answer to this, but,
one of the things in the, bookis these characters, Angie and
both Jillian, growing up in thistown and then moving to New York
and the past and, and then kindof the return to their small
town life.
Are you more of a city person oran open space person?
Kristin Koval (21:19):
I'm more of an open space person.
I mean, I would move back to theEast Coast Or, or get a place
there or something.
If both my kids ended up therebecause I love my children would
like to see them regularly.
But I love to be outside.
And in fact, that was one of thedriving forces of moving to
Colorado.
I love central park.
(21:40):
I think it's this great,beautiful park in New York city,
but I like to be in theoutdoors.
With nobody around me.
I love to hike and ski and bikeand trail run and, Colorado
doesn't have as many people,which is, you know, kind of
nice.
It's a little quieter.
And I love New York and, youknow, both of my sons happen to
(22:01):
be there now.
And so it's, it's fun to gothere and, you know, get to eat
all the fabulous foodeverywhere.
And, it's so vibrant and, I justlove the life there.
It's, it's so diverse in everyway, shape and form.
It's a great place, but I likeColorado
Brett Benner (22:17):
and Utah.
I ask that too, because As I'vegotten older, I lived in New
York for a few years and, youknow, I'm in Los Angeles now,
but we're moving, um, in thenext, eight months, I've been in
big cities and I just want skyand trees and less people.
And so again, I, you know, I, itwas just watching Angie's
trajectory in this, thischaracter of this young woman
(22:39):
going to New York and followingher dream of being an artist.
And, I personally, I tapped intothat.
I was an actor when I came outof school and that's absolutely
what I wanted.
I loved New York, but I was justready to go.
And so listening to you talk andI, I noticed on your Instagram,
you, you have a lot of pictureseither, you know, outdoors and,
(23:00):
and, um, there's something aboutthat, that I'm so looking
forward to.
Kristin Koval (23:05):
Well, congratulations.
I think you'll really like it.
Brett Benner (23:07):
I'm excited.
Um, I I'm so digressing, allright.
So Julianne, He's another, Iloved this character.
Can you talk a little bit abouthim for our, for our listeners?
Who he is now and kind of who hewas.
Kristin Koval (23:20):
I can say that Julian goes through a big
transformation.
and I think like most of us, um,I think that Julian starts out.
As somebody who is very focusedon being a skier, and, you know,
going to college.
And initially you know, when Istarted to write, I thought,
maybe he will, you know, besomebody who is headed to the
(23:42):
Olympics or be that good orsomething like that.
And as we know that, that kindof goes by the wayside for
certain reasons.
And he ends up being a characterwho is very devoted to, as a
lawyer, making sure that hisclients have the best
representation they can.
And it was really important tome to portray him in a way that
(24:07):
would also help readersunderstand how important
criminal defense attorneys are.
I think sometimes they get a badrap because A little bit in our
country, even though we saysomebody is innocent until
they're proven guilty to someextent, I think that, you know,
in the media and in socialmedia, when somebody is accused
of something, They're guilty.
The accusation essentiallyrenders them guilty.
(24:29):
And that's what innocent untilproven guilty was meant to
deter.
But the attitude is still outthere.
And so it was important to methat Julian be the kind of
criminal defense attorney whogave His clients, the best
chance to be treated fairlywithin the criminal justice
system.
Brett Benner (24:48):
And their relationship, he and Andy's
relationship is just, it's sointeresting to me.
When they first come together,you know, as it slowly gets
revealed, everything that existsbetween them it's heartbreaking
in a way, because, I don't know,maybe I'm just some sappy
romantic thinking, Oh, my God, Iwant them to, reconnect.
I want them to, be together.
(25:08):
Which just might be the romanticin me.
Kristin Koval (25:12):
I initially, I wanted them to, to reconnect as
well.
Um, and that just wasn't how ithappened in the end.
Um, and that also that didn'tseem fair both to his current
wife or to the circumstancesunder which they parted
basically.
Brett Benner (25:30):
Jillian's mother Martine, she is just a terrific
character too.
I just thought here's this womanwho is a lawyer, but she
understands her limitations.
She's older.
She, by all, stretches theimagination.
She probably should just beretired, but she's asked to do
this.
She's just an incrediblespitfire.
Kristin Koval (25:50):
And, you know, it's really funny because when I
first started this, I didn'trealize how much people would
connect with Martine, and I havehad a lot of people say to me,
why don't you just write a wholebook from Martine's point of
view?
Um, people really like her.
Brett Benner (26:04):
She could be a complete standalone.
I don't know if you've evenstarted to germinate on, what
you might do next, but do youthink that stick to something
that has.
Uh, legal area to it, or do youthink you'll expand beyond or if
it has it not gone far yet?
Kristin Koval (26:23):
Um, no, it has gone that far actually.
So I, I wrote another bookbefore this book and that one
was had zero bits of, oflegalese or legal, legal issues
in it.
I, I just, and that was more ofa satire.
But that was me learning how towrite.
So I think that, that book'sgonna stay, on my computer in a
hidden file.
(26:43):
I probably will have somethinglegal related for my next one,
although, you know, even withthis one, although there are
legal aspects to it, that's notthe main point.
Brett Benner (26:53):
It's not, no,
Kristin Koval (26:54):
and I, I didn't want it to be the main point.
You know, we talked a little bitabout Angie Kim and her first
book, miracle Creek.
Mostly took place or largelytook place in a courtroom and I
love that book, but I also Idon't know that I have the
experience to do that kind of alegal novel.
Just because I was never acriminal attorney.
(27:16):
I never practiced criminal lawor spent enough time with it to.
To do that as well as Angie did.
But at the same time, I was alawyer for a lot of years and
there are a lot of interestingthings in the law to talk about
and address.
So I, I kind of already knowwhat I'm doing.
I'm I've got reams and reams ofnotes for my next novel and
(27:39):
about 30 or 40 pages written,and it does have some legal
aspects to it.
Brett Benner (27:44):
and I think for, Our listeners and our viewers,
the thing about this book isit's not any one thing.
I mean, I would hate forsomebody to say, well, it's a
thriller.
It's not.
There is a mystery component toit, certainly.
But I, I looked at it as thesame way I kind of view, Liz
Moore's books
Kristin Koval (28:02):
which I love.
Those are great.
Brett Benner (28:03):
Yeah.
But they're literary novels thatcertainly, the God in the Woods
had this mystery about it, butit's not what I would call a
thriller, and neither is this,there is a, a mystery component
to it, but it is, like I said,there's a family story, there's
a love story.
It manages to be and convey alot of different things, which
(28:23):
is really, really
cool.
Kristin Koval (28:25):
Um, you know, I love to write.
I absolutely, I, I, I never wantto shade any part of my legal
career.
Except I, I didn't really likebeing a corporate lawyer.
It was not a, wasn't really agood match for my, my
personality.
But I love to write.
You know, when you're a lawyer,you look at your watch all day
long in six minute increments.
And, I don't do that when Iwrite.
(28:48):
I just sit down and if I'm inthe middle of something, I'll
write for 15 or 16 hours and notget bored and not feel like I
have to do anything other thaneat a lot of chocolate.
Which I do because chocolate's afood group.
I really enjoy it so much, soI'm, I'm so lucky to get to do
this.
Brett Benner (29:05):
Yeah, well, it's like, it's like the character of
Angie in the book, who's apainter.
It's, it's your painting.
It's your art.
It's your creative expression.
And, and honestly, we're all theluckier for it.
it's your painting.
It's your art.
It's your, it's creativeexpression.
And, and honestly, we're all theluckier for it.
Kristin Koval (29:24):
Oh, thank you.
Brett Benner (29:26):
Well, this has been wonderful.
And, again, Penitence, it'sfantastic.
So go buy it, get it from anindependent bookstore.
If you can, I will also have thebook linked in my bookshop.
org page.
Congratulations on all of this.
I will say this is a fantasticbook for book clubs because
(29:47):
there is so much to dissect andtalk about.
So, So get it, talk about it.
I'm so excited to see what youwrite next.
Kristin Koval (29:56):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much for having meand I, I wish you the best of
luck with your move and I, Ihope that I mean, it seems like
your, your house is, iscertainly okay.
And I hope the last couple ofweeks haven't been too traumatic
for you.
Brett Benner (30:10):
It's been strange.
It's really strange.
The mood, the first few days,the clouds, the, you know, the
cloud cover, the smoke cover,and, what's been very,
Heartening is the city'sresponse to each other and the
way that everybody has cometogether and really shown up for
each other, which is, you know,to make a cliche statement
(30:33):
heartwarming and but it reallyis because it makes you really,
uh, It affirms the goodness ofpeople and that we all are here
for each other.
And that's, and that really, Ithink it's so important.
And, that at the end of the day,it's, you know, it's not
politics.
it's not about this or that.
It's just that we're all human.
(30:53):
Everyone is just helping eachother.
And I think that's the mostimportant thing.
That's been, if there's a giftin this in any way, that's
really been it.
But, anyway, thank you again.
Kristin Koval (31:02):
I really enjoyed talking to you and I love your
show.
I've listened to a lot of theepisodes, so.
Brett Benner (31:06):
Oh, good.
I'm so glad.
All right.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday.
Enjoy that gorgeous ColoradoAir.
Thank you.
And space, and I'll see you.
Kristin Koval (31:15):
Thank you.
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