November 13, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with Lance Garland to discuss his new memoir, 'Out There'. They talk about growing up gay in an ultra conservative home, the Navy SEALS and the physical demands of both that and being a firefighter, why firefighting as a profession, and embracing risk in ones job and in life.
Lance's website:
https://www.lancegarland.com/
Lance's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/outtherewithlance/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everybody, it's Brett and welcome or
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack, this
special non-fiction Novemberbonus episode.
So today I am sitting down withauthor Lance Garland for his
memoir out there.
The way I met Lance, I'm notgonna tell you about here.
I'm gonna let our conversation,the podcast tell you that story.
(00:20):
But it just goes to show thatsometimes these conversations
and these meetings come up inthe most unlikely of places.
But Lance is a really great guyand I was thrilled to be able to
sit down with him.
So a little bit about him.
He is a veteran, firefighter,nature adventurer, and writer.
his work has appeared in outsidetravel and leisure.
Backpacker Orion and elsewhere.
(00:41):
His honors include thePathfinder Prize, a fellowship
at the Banff Center's MountainWriting Residency, and a
catalyst grant from the AmericanAlpine Club.
He lives on Bainbridge Island,Washington.
So I hope you enjoy this episodeof Behind the Stack.
I am really happy to be sittingdown today with Lance Garland
(01:04):
for his memoir that justrecently came out out there,
dispatches from my personalwilderness.
Thank you so much for beinghere, Lance.
It's great to see you on thescreen.
Lance Garland (01:18):
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be a guest today.
Brett Benner (01:20):
I have to back up and tell really quickly, I, I
wanted everyone to know thatsome of the way this came about,
it's so random and so funny, isthat Lance and I have a mutual
friend who I had met beforemoving up to the Pacific
Northwest and who also lived inthe same area, and she's like,
oh my gosh, I have to introduceyou to my friends and.
(01:42):
So I was like, great.
So she ended up introducing andthe funny thing was you and
Oliver were having a party,which you were not'cause you
were working.
And so I actually didn't meetyou.
I met Oliver, but all of yourfriends in this incredible
community.
And actually Maggie wasn't thereeither because she was working.
So it was this kind of thisstrange thing.
But it was great'cause we got tomeet all these people and then
(02:04):
it was like the connection of.
Of, of putting it all together.
And then you had the book comeout, so it was kind of really
fortuitous and like, how luckyare we to have met you guys?
And so it, this for me is kindof extra special because, um,
literally like.
You're my neighbor, which is socool.
(02:24):
I love it.
It's so rad.
And I'm such a book nerd.
So imagine my excitement when I,you know, I actually met you on
Instagram first.
I didn't know that you were thefriend Maggie was trying to
connect us with and I was like,your Instagram is incredible.
This is so awesome.
So imagine my excitement whenI'm like, oh wow, this is my new
neighbor.
This is awesome.
(02:45):
I know.
So it's funny'cause I thought,okay, we'll have plenty of,
plenty of stuff to.
Geek out about.
So that's really great.
So
Lance Garland (02:51):
I, I need to ask, were you always an outdoor kid?
I did not grow up, uh, goingmuch into the outdoors other
than going to like the localbeach.
And in the Pacific Northwest,you know, you gotta take beach
with a grain of salt.
Literally, it's a rocky,heavily.
Seaside where you can see theother side of the water.
So it's just more like aninland, but that was the most
(03:12):
outdoor stuff that I did growingup is just like day trips to the
beach.
I was not a camper.
We, we went camping maybe twiceas a family.
It was a disaster, so, wow.
It was not something that myfamily did.
Uh, do your siblings have it aswell, that kind of adventurous
spirit?
No.
I'm the only one who's.
You know, outdoor enthusiasts.
People think I'm crazy for thethings that I do all these day
(03:34):
long backpacking trips where youdon't get to shower and you're
just dirty and gross andmiserable for half the time.
But I was in the Navy, and thisis actually in the book where a
friend of mine invited me out toa backpacking trip.
Brett Benner (03:46):
In the
Lance Garland (03:46):
North Cascades National Park.
And we went out there because wehad read this book by Jack Haack
Desolation Angels, and in thatbook, Jack Haack writes about
his time as a fire lookout.
So my buddy's like, let's go tothis fire lookout.
You can get out there.
It's super deep, but let's goout there and camp and go see it
for ourselves.
So I went on this trip and that,that was the last year I was in
(04:07):
the Navy, I think it was twoseven.
So a while ago.
And we went out there and Ijust.
Fell in love.
I mean, we, we were miles andmiles and miles away from the
nearest road.
Mm.
The way we did at that time, wegot dropped off by a water taxi.
So we hiked from the highwaydown, got a water taxi, took us
out in the middle of nowhere,and then we're 30 miles away
from the nearest road, and thenwe go on like a seven mile hike
(04:30):
to get to this.
This fire lookout and it to, tothis day, I mean this fire
lookout is just so symbolic ofmy life and what, the, the
outdoors has given me.
So
Brett Benner (04:40):
I'm having like shades of John crack hour.
I, yeah.
Yeah.
I should back up a little bitbefore, you know,'cause I
started to launch it and then Iwas like, I didn't even really
talk and ask you if you couldgive a kind of elevator pitch of
what your memoir is about.
That would be great.
Lance Garland (04:56):
Yeah, so the memoir is pretty much about me,
how I overcame the challenges ofmy life.
I was openly gay in the Navyduring Don't ask, don't tell.
Before that, I was raised in ananti-gay religion, so I wasn't
capable of coming to terms withwho I was in the Navy.
I became a witness in a courtmartial.
(05:16):
That threatened my career.
And then after the Navy, I hadto rebuild my life and become
the first openly gay fireman inthe Seattle Fire Department.
So how I got through all thosechallenges.
For me, I needed like somethingthat helped me out and and
nature is the thing that helpedme.
It gave me resilience and itgave me this opportunity to
(05:37):
reflect.
So the book is about how Imanaged to get through all that
really tough stuff.
And it's kind of an homage tonature and the outdoors and how
that can help not only me, butthe community, you know, get
through their tough hours.
Brett Benner (05:53):
So your, your, your family, you have two
siblings, right?
I have three, yep.
You have three and you're at theupper end, correct?
Lance Garland (06:01):
Yeah, I'm the second.
So, but I'm the oldest boy.
My sister is the oldest.
So I kind of the oldest byproxy.
Um,'cause she was the only girlshe was.
But anyway, yes, there's,there's four of us.
Brett Benner (06:12):
Yeah.
And so you, you, you talkedabout it was a pretty
conservative.
One would almost say severereligious upbringing.
It was a fundamentalist Baptistchurch.
You were homeschooled.
Right.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat in, in terms of your
upbringing, in terms of the,your parents and the way they
kind of wanted to effectivelyprotect you all from, from the
outside?
Lance Garland (06:29):
Yeah.
The way, the word that they usedwas sheltered.
They kept us sheltered from theworld.
Um, I, I was homeschooled.
I was also put through thechurch's school and then towards
the end my parents didn't haveany money, so we ended up going
to a public school that was.
Very small, kind of homeschooledgroup that turned into a public
school.
Interesting stories, but thepoint is, is that they wanted to
(06:52):
shelter us and not give us asecular education.
The byproduct of that is that Ididn't know what gay was until I
started working at 16.
Really?
I mean, I, I, there's a scenewhere.
In the book, uh, a guy fromhomeschool kisses a boy and it
becomes this thing.
Um, and he goes to conversiontherapy.
And for me, before that allhappened, I was like, oh, this
(07:14):
is amazing.
You can kiss a boy.
This is so awesome.
But then the aftermath of it wasvery severe and it became very
apparent in my coming of agethat it would ruin my life if I
was gay, a hundred percent I'dbe excommunicated.
Who knew what was outside?
The circle of my upbringing.
I had no idea if you couldsurvive out there.
(07:35):
It was, it was a scary situationto feel like your involvement
and belonging was contingent onyou not being gay.
So, I mean, I don't think thatmy parents were like, you know,
hateful of gay people.
It's just that they weren'tallowed, it was just not
something that was in the sphereof influence.
(07:55):
So, and then we find out laterhow that goes.
Brett Benner (07:57):
It's so interesting.
Did you,'cause you said at 16you became, you know, you
probably had a name for it, butwere you aware you had, like,
were you aware when you wereyoung?
Like something's, something'sdifferent, something, even if
you couldn't
Lance Garland (08:09):
verbalize it yet?
A hundred percent yes.
I knew from a very young ageand.
You know, we didn't have asecular idea of what gay was,
but in church, and there's ascene in church where, you know,
they say God hates homosexuals.
They're an abomination.
That's my understanding of whatthat is.
I didn't know about like samesex love.
It was just this two men havingsex is.
(08:31):
You're going to hell.
You know, I didn't know thatthere was another idea of what
gay was that you could bemarried and have kids or you
know, just any other ideas?
I had no concept of gay cultureat the time.
Brett Benner (08:42):
It's interesting hearing you say all this because
you know, not to the severity ofwhat you went through, but you
know, I was raised in the churchas well, and so reading about
how you would go twice onSundays, sometimes during the
week, all of this.
So resonated with me.
But having that awareness, likeyou said, of something is off
(09:05):
and also something is, is reallywrong and not knowing how to,
uh, I, I, you know, put intowords, or even frankly, the
worst part is having anyone tobe able to talk about these
feelings that are coming up.
Right,
Lance Garland (09:21):
totally.
There's a moment in the bookwhere my grandma, who is not
religious, kind of comes, setsme aside and tells me, and I
didn't understand what this waswhen she said it at the time,
but it stuck with me.
She said, Lance, there's nothingwrong with being gay.
And it just stuck.
'cause I was like, what do youmean?
What is this?
(09:41):
And it took me decades to likeunderstand.
I was very young when she toldme that.
It took me forever to understandwhat that meant and what she was
saying to me, and it to me, thatwas profound that I had some
support in that, you know, darkplace because, you know, growing
up as a queer kid in a,unsupportive or even, you know,
scary environment.
(10:02):
I mean, that does horriblethings to our community.
I mean, I don't want to go intothe details, but you know, I'm a
firefighter now, you know, I, Isee the, you know, the suicide
rate for underrepresentedgroups, marginalized groups,
and, and queer people are one ofthose.
And I thought there was nofuture for me too.
And when you think there's nofuture for you, then how do you
live?
Brett Benner (10:22):
Yeah, there was just a, it was almost just a
sentence in the book where youtalk about praying to God,
confessing your sins and askingfor him to change you.
And I so remember that like Iwent to church camp.
Every year, and it's funny, whenI reflect back on it, I had a, a
counselor who was so wonderfuland loving, and I don't
necessarily think he was gay,but I think as a young person,
(10:44):
I, I was crushed out on him, butnot, fully able to understand
that, but mm-hmm.
I'm sure that as a.
Sensitive adult.
He probably recognized somethingand he was very, gentle and, you
know, in terms of how he dealtwith me and, and very loving.
And so, and I think about that.
(11:04):
I think about that a lot.
You talk, there's a sequence inhere where, your sister had a
teacher that she loved who wastaken outta the school because
they were gay.
And then, then later there wasa, the same teacher, Mr.
Dennis, who was a reallyinfluential teacher for you., In
terms of writing, but I have toread something.
He had, you were talking abouthow he came back from the summer
(11:24):
vacation and he had pictures,but they were just pictures of
him.
Yes.
And you're questioning who tookthose pictures and who was on
the other side of that and hesaid there was truth there
somewhere.
And I knew somewhere else,someone I.
Else had to have taken thosepictures all across Europe, I'd
imagine, who that person couldbe content to take the pictures
and not be in them.
Content to be invisible, silent,non-existent.
In the majority of Mr.
Dennis's world, at least fromour perspective, a deep sadness
(11:48):
began to form me.
Hiding was essential.
Silence was the only option, andthat just killed me.
I recognize that completely.
I had that same, mine was adrama teacher who was so
influential to me, but I thinkeven now, the amount of teachers
who are under attack for eitherbeing gay in these conservative
areas or being just supportiveand recognizing in kids that
(12:10):
there's something differentthere.
It's just such a hard thing.
Lance Garland (12:13):
Absolutely.
I mean, seeing all the bookBannings and the Don't Say Gay
in Florida, and I mean it, it ahundred percent triggers me from
my youth.
You know, it's, yeah.
It is something that I talk withmy, my best friend was with me
on this whole journey of life,and we talk about that.
Like, can you believe that thisis still going on?
And even, you know, coming backso strong with like a new
(12:35):
administration of this, thishatred and this intolerance.
So, yeah, it's, it's incrediblyscary and I think our teachers
are put in a horrible positionbecause teachers awful are
supposed to show you the worldand, and encourage curiosity and
then when they're not allowedto, it's, I mean, it is awful.
I think that teachers have themost important job in society
and they are put in animpossible position with
(12:57):
politics
Brett Benner (12:58):
being raised in this environment.
I'm just curious, how has yourview of religion changed?
Do you view yourself as areligious person or, or more of
a spiritual person, or how doyou view it?
Lance Garland (13:08):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
I had a conversation two daysago about this.
I, I am not a religious person.
I don't follow a dogma.
Mm-hmm.
But it's funny because likeJesus is the, the icon in the
Christian religion, and Ipersonally think that Jesus is
an incredible role model.
I still try to model my lifeafter him.
I mean, what an incredible wayto live your life.
(13:29):
Um, but as far as, you know,going to church or adhering to a
structure, that's not really mything.
I, me and my husband talk aboutthe fact that, you know, we're
having kids now.
We just had our, our first kidand.
Instead of raising them in areligion, we wanna give them
some sort of structure.
And my answer to that structureis nature.
You know, I want them to feelconnected to the earth, to the
(13:50):
world, to be able to go out andand experience those spiritual
moments that I've found in themountains, in the forest.
You know, on the ocean, in theseas.
And so that's my sort of standinis this deep connection to place
is my religion.
Mm-hmm.
But I don't have anythingagainst religious people as long
as they don't try to hurt me andmy family.
(14:12):
I think that I've met on myjourney, lots of Christian
people who are incredibly lovingand incredibly supportive and
really are emblems of what Jesusstood for.
And then I've also seen the oneswho are constantly trying to,
you know, control.
Have intolerance and, and hatredand discriminate.
And I mean, so I have no placefor that in my life.
(14:33):
I, I welcome religious people aslong as they are a human and,
and have kindness and, andunderstanding.
Um, and unfortunately, you know,the types of churches that I
grew up in that is not allowed.
There is no communication.
Yeah.
I was excommunicated when I,when I came out, very few people
talked to me again from thatwhole environment.
After I came out, it was clearas day.
Brett Benner (14:55):
But your family does, I mean, I know your
relationship with your mom hasevolved a lot, but do you still
keep up with your dad?
Lance Garland (15:01):
No, me and my dad are sort of excommunicated and
that's a whole nother story thatis kind of in the book, but is,
you know, a lot to go through.
But um, yeah, as far as my mom,I think I put my mom in our
evolution in this book because Ithink it's a great example of.
Even when there's thisdifference and even when someone
really believes in in theirreligion, you can still find a
(15:22):
path to reconciliation and to arelationship.
And me and my mom found thattogether and it was hard and it
was long and we had to have alot of patience and a lot of
conversation.
But now it's amazing.
She calls my husband, her son inlove, love that.
She is incredibly supportive.
I love that.
And she's, you know, her, Ithink her understanding of her
(15:43):
religion has evolved.
In the journey as well, which iswhat we all can hope from when
we learn from each other andlove each other, is that we can
evolve and learn about eachother.
Brett Benner (15:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm, I'm jumping to the NavySeals because these are the
things I learned.
I, first of all, I didn't knowthat, seals stood for sea, air
and land.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I've learned all thesethings.
And because basically an assaultcan happen from any point,
whether it's land or sea, or theair, which is.
Amazing.
Now, you were always kinda drawnto the idea of this was like, as
(16:15):
a young kid, you liked actionmovies.
You liked the idea of like,these people that were like
super spies and doing all thesethings.
Oh, and, and then, and then yousaid that nine 11 was really the
catalyst for you to wanna pursueit.
So you were probably like, what,15 when nine 11 happened?
Gosh, that's,
Lance Garland (16:31):
I'm not totally sure.
It was two years before Igraduated, so maybe like 16?
Yeah, something like that.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (16:37):
So.
So we get into the Navy sales.
First of all, it, this was oneof the parts for me that I
literally was like, I'm outbecause I could, the fact that
people did this, the fact thatpeople go through this grueling,
grueling.
Process of trying to become aseal like my hat's off to you.
(17:00):
This part here where it said, wedo hundreds of pushups in sets
of 20 while they growl at usfrom above.
Then push us with our gear outthe door and into a hallway
clogged with pedestrian traffic.
Bodies are everywhere.
The instructors do not tire downthree flights of stairs and into
a gauntlet of pressurized water.
We crawl and come out into thegrinder.
They keep the hoses on us.
(17:22):
Water burns my eyes as I see.
Flares igniting the courtyard onall sides.
Explosions come from the cornersas they line us up in ranks.
All right, at this point, I'vealready pooped my pants and like
I, I, so you, you've gotta talkabout this because I think this
takes a special person and thefact that you went even as.
(17:43):
Like where you went through withthis process, just the physical
part of it.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthis?
And also what I think ishilarious is you kind of ran
into this to try to escape yoursame-sex traction and you landed
yourself in a sea of probablythe hottest, most in-shape
beautiful men in all kinds ofenvironments.
Lance Garland (18:05):
I mean, it's hilarious.
It's ironic.
I mean, I, I tried to lean intothat a little bit'cause from.
My vantage point in life, I'mlike, wow, what was I thinking?
What was I thinking?
Uh, but you know, you, youmentioned what is a CLC Air
land, like?
It made perfect sense because Iwanted adventure in my life.
Mm.
I wanted to do the seas, Iwanted to, to go through the
(18:26):
land.
I want, you know, I wanted toexplore.
That was my whole, like in myheart, I had been kept in this
tiny cage my whole life.
I wanted to go out there, get,see the world.
That was the whole point someoneneeded to
Brett Benner (18:38):
tell you, you need to work on a cruise ship.
Lance Garland (18:40):
There's so many different ways would, so much
easier.
It's it's so true.
And it's, and it's funny becausethat's where my upbringing came
in, right?
It's like I was taught that whatyou do.
You serve your country and youserve your family, you know?
So I was very much followingthis, even though I was trying
to get out, I was still very inthe dogma of following the
(19:01):
strict path that life shouldtake.
And, you know, I wasn't quiteready to accept myself as being
gay.
When I went to seals, I thoughtthat this was a way for me to
get over it, you know, reallydeep down I was like, oh, if I'm
a seal.
All of my problems go away, youknow, and then I'm there.
(19:22):
I'm like, okay, it's not goingaway.
Okay.
Then I start to daydream about,well, can I be in a gay Navy
seal, you know, and, and hearthat thought excites me.
You know, I'm like in, in themiddle of this, this is an
incredibly dangerous thing todo, in my opinion at the time is
to be a gay Navy seal.
But I'm like, can I be that?
And I came to the conclusionthat I couldn't be.
(19:45):
I, I follow that thread all theway to, you know, becoming the
first openly gay fireman.
And I, I revisit that'cause Ifind out who the first openly
gay Navy Seal was and it didn'tgo well for him either.
So long story short, there atNavy SEAL Training, I was
getting to know who I really wasand I knew I loved adventure.
I knew I loved to explore, but Ialso knew I was gay.
(20:07):
So I had to come to thisconclusion.
I just had a total breakdownthere in my brain and in my
soul.
I was like, what am I gonna dowith my life?
And I decided to go out into theunknown instead of trying to fit
myself into this box that Icould not fit into.
And then that's, in my opinion,where my life really started.
(20:28):
But boy, it was not easy.
From the moment I made thatdecision for years afterwards, I
was still trying to figure outhow I could live, you know?
And that's when I get into don'task, don't tell.
I, you know, I do not become aNavy Seal.
You know, I, I, I tried and Ichose not to continue.
And then I went out a ship andfell in love for the first time
(20:51):
and.
Traumatic to say the least forme and for, um, my boyfriend.
Brett Benner (20:59):
Were you able, when you were going through all
of this in the beginning, wereyou able to, were you able to
talk to anybody about any ofthis or was it like a floodgate
for you if you were afraid?
If you started talking, youwouldn't stop talking and so you
had to keep your mouth shut.
Lance Garland (21:12):
When I left the Navy Seals, I said, I'm telling
everybody.
Like, I'm, I'm not, I was 19years old.
I went to, my friend, told herimmediately, and she was the
first person I told wasincredibly supportive.
She was like, this, this isawesome, Lance.
Like, she was so supportive.
And then I started telling myfamily and then that was wild.
(21:33):
You know, the differentreactions were huge.
And then the church found out,you know, and then I never
talked to the church peopleagain, pretty much.
And so I was being very, veryopen.
But then I got to the ship.
And I realized, oh, I can't beopen here, can I?
So then I started to try tofigure out, you know, I, I would
tell my closest friends, therewas a small group of people on
(21:53):
the boat that I was out to.
I don't think it was like.
Shocking to anybody when theyfound out I was gay.
'cause I was sort of livingopenly but silently, if that
makes sense.
And then when I fell in lovewith my boyfriend on the ship,
that's when it really couldn'treally keep it a secret anymore.
And then I get involved with a,court martial where he was
(22:15):
sexually assaulted by somebodyelse on the boat.
And then everything just goes toabsolute hell after that.
Because even telling your story,even being a witness, it wasn't
even my story, it was, it was myboyfriend's story and I had
some, some very smallinformation that helped the
case.
The guy who had assaulted himthreatened to kill me, and so I,
(22:36):
you know, was a witness and I,and I told the court, I told the
investigators that that hadhappened and then it opened up
the floodgates into, well.
You know, your personal life isnow on the line.
It's open for discussion.
So then I was outed officiallybecause I was a witness in the
trial.
There were no witness rights,you know, in that situation.
So really it just, it laid bareeverything about my life.
(22:58):
I was completely vulnerable andopen and expecting to be kicked
out.
Dishonorably discharged from theNavy and I was really lucky.
And I won't go into all thedetails'cause it's a lot in the
book.
Did you read it?
I did not get dishonorablydischarged, and that to me was
the first real show of supportand goodness in humanity that
(23:19):
really was able, I was able tohold onto this fact and create a
whole new life.
Even though I was dealing withall the tra traumatic events of
my past, I had this thing thatsomebody else did for me.
To, to stand up for me.
And for me that was lifechanging.
And it has continued to, like,to this day still, I'm still in
(23:39):
contact with this person.
They are an absolute model ofhumanity in my, in my life.
And I hope to repay pay itforward because one person's
actions completely changed thedirection of my life.
Brett Benner (23:51):
There's such sequences both in the Navy Seals
and in the, and when you weregoing through the training to be
a fireman that where you'repushing yourself so hard and,
and I think it's part of this,speaks to your excellence in
terms of how well you were doingto be honorably discharged.
Because you were, not only wereyou doing everything you were
supposed to be doing and doingit right, you were doing it
(24:12):
better than most of the people.
And I kept thinking was some ofthis drive for you?
Tied to your sexuality and tiedto those concerns.
Lance Garland (24:22):
Absolutely.
I think as queer people we'reheld to an extremely high bar,
this, this idea of excellence,there's no other option because,
you know, it's so hard to, in,in my experience, to succeed as
a queer person, as an openlyqueer person in life.
There's so much against you thatyou have to be perfect.
(24:43):
You have to be excellent.
It's actually something that Italk about with my friends now
and, and with my therapist,this, this need to be perfect.
It's not really serving me.
And so yes, that absolutelyinformed my trajectory for sure.
It gave me the motivation.
There's also negatives to thattoo, but I think that.
(25:04):
I also had a lot of emotionalstuff and and traumatic
experiences that I needed towork out.
And the way that I could work itout in my mind, in a healthy way
was physically, and you know,that that did happen through
work, through the Navy andthrough firefighting.
But even to this day, you know,I go on these long physical
treks to go climb mountains.
(25:26):
To me, it's cathartic.
It's a way to, you know, havethat introspection with myself,
come to terms with what hashappened in my life, and then
also choose how I'm gonna reactto these things that have
happened.
And so, yeah, the physicalfacts, the, the part of that
process have been incrediblyhelpful for me to overcome some
(25:47):
of these really terriblesituations.
Brett Benner (25:49):
So jumping ahead a bit of 27, you got, uh, evicted
from your apartment because theland was being developed and so
you ended up living on a boat,which, and, and let me just add
that it was a small boat.
Small boat for someone who wassix small three, right?
I think there's something to methat's very poignant and telling
about.
You who is physically so largetrying to push yourself down to
(26:12):
live into these, it's almostlike your spiritual and
emotional life was running intandem with your physical life
at that point.
I agree.
Totally.
So interesting.
Lance Garland (26:23):
I, you know, and I love that, that chapter, I try
to sum up most of that six yearsin one chapter.
It really was teaching me thephysicality of it, me squeezing
myself into these tiny boxes, menot being able to just stand up
straight and own who I am inlife and accept the good, the
bad, the ugly, all of it, justto accept it, you know?
(26:44):
I was trying so much to be thisidea and living on the boat kind
of laid all that bear too, andit gave me.
A chance to understand my bodymore.
It was very introspective, itwas very isolating as well.
I was alone a lot of the timeliving alone.
But I was also able to say,okay, so this is who I am.
This is, and now what do I wantto do with this?
(27:06):
Where do I want to go?
And then, you know, the boat.
I could sail, I could goanywhere.
And I did.
I sailed all the time and I'dbring friends along and it
opened up this new chapter ofadventure for my life.
I think that that was when I wasstarting to say, I'm not gonna
hide anymore, and it's not assimple as a one decision.
You know, I, I'm not gonna hide,I'm out, period.
(27:29):
Coming out is a continualprocess.
You get a new job, you have tocome, come out to everybody at
your new job.
Always, always, you know, it's acontinual thing.
So, but I wanted to get to thepoint where it wasn't a problem
or a challenge.
Every time I came to the tablewith it, I wanted it to be
nonchalant.
I wanted it to be how I feltabout it inside, which was like,
I'm proud of who I am, but I'mnot that different from
(27:49):
everybody else.
Right?
And so that's when it started toreally, and you'll see in the
firefighting.
When you put that to the fireand when there's costs
associated with it, and when youcould lose your job again and
all these things, it's not soeasy to, to step up to the
plate, and it requiresdedication and determination and
(28:10):
a lot of messiness.
My life, I, I did not live aclean, perfectly trimmed life.
It was messy.
I made so many mistakes, butsomehow along the way in that
messiness, I got to amazingplaces.
And so the fire department forme was that reward, uh, hard
earned, um, not only through thephysical aspect of becoming a
(28:31):
firefighter, but overcoming allmy past to be able to be okay
with who I'm as an openly outgay man.
Brett Benner (28:40):
So take us through then, what led you to, to the
firehouse?
What led you to say, I'm gonnabe a firefighter,
Lance Garland (28:46):
you know.
It came down a couple things.
One is the physical.
I love the physical stuff.
I need to be doing stuff with mybody.
I need to be lifting or hikingor climbing and this, all this
stuff.
But you know, I learnedsomething in the Navy is that I
really wanted to help people andsomething I learned from the
Navy Seals is I got there and Irealized that.
Their version of helping peopleis to be assassins and kill the
(29:08):
bad guys.
And I'm like, that's not what Iwas thinking I wanted to do.
I wanna help people.
I want to actually likephysically help remove them from
danger.
And so it really became a, likea psychological, a philosophical
like lifestyle choice of.
I wanna go to people in theirdarkest hour because I know what
(29:28):
it's like to be in your darkesthour and not have someone, and
I'm like, I want to go out thereand be that person for someone.
And firefighting.
Was the fastest way I could dothat with, with my background
and, and my skillsets.
And I loved it.
I found this really, thisspiritual quality to giving back
to the community throughfirefighting.
(29:49):
And, you know, I've experienceda lot of death through that job
being with people in their finalmoments and, and to have that
honor of, and thatresponsibility to be with
somebody as they, as they leavethis.
World.
World and offer them kindnessand support and love.
I think that that's a phenomenaltask to try to rise to that
(30:09):
occasion.
Um, and then also just runninginto burning buildings and, and
trying to pull people out.
That doesn't happen as muchthese days'cause we have good
technology.
There are fires, but people getout quicker.
So more what we deal with is themedical side of, you know,
people having heart attacks andpeople in car accidents, and
that's more of the modernfirefighting.
But yeah, I get to do a range ofthings and that excites me.
(30:30):
I think that's what.
Showing up to work every day andnot knowing what was gonna
happen is something that reallygets me going.
I think that's awesome, but alsoprobably a byproduct of my past.
Brett Benner (30:40):
And maybe you can explain this to me'cause I don't
know, like I grew up when mybrother was a volunteer fireman
and I don't know if some do somecities or.
Counties have strictly it'svoluntary versus being employed.
Lance Garland (30:52):
Yeah.
So I, that's how I started mycareer.
Right after college, I startedvolunteering on an island close
to Seattle, VA on island.
And usually it's your way, yourproving ground.
It's like being an intern.
You know, you, you work forfree.
To show them what you've got.
You get your certifications, youbuild a platform, and then
ultimately, yeah, you hope thatthat leads to a professional
(31:12):
paid career job.
I think at the time that I wasvolunteering, I was.
There were 70% of the workforceof firefighters in the nation
were volunteers.
Wow.
So really, you know, the bigcities are where, or the suburbs
are, where you get to, you know,be paid to be a firefighter.
So many firefighters do it outof the kindness of their heart.
(31:33):
Wow.
Brett Benner (31:34):
And this was the other thing, I know you, I'd
asked you this previously, howmany.
Firefighters are there in justthe Seattle station, is that
what I'm saying?
Is that or that division?
Yeah, so
Lance Garland (31:44):
the city of Seattle, they have about 40,
roughly 40, uh, fire stationsacross the city and over a
thousand firefighters outta us.
Brett Benner (31:54):
Yep.
Wow, that's really, reallyincredible.
Has your views about the job andthere is risk.
There's risk with any job, buthas it changed at all now since
you're a debt?
Lance Garland (32:04):
Yeah.
Well it's funny'cause I onlybeen a dad for seven weeks now
and I haven't actually went backto work yet.
I'm still on the parental leave.
So, you know, going back towork, it's gonna be funny.
I am gonna go back to work as adad and, and as a publish author
of a book talking about thisjob.
I a hundred percent expect forthings to be different.
I think.
For me, you know, risk, I, as agay man, as a outdoor
(32:26):
enthusiast, as a firefighter, asa a veteran, risk has been a
very big part of my life.
Mm-hmm.
Um, it's a constant and it,it's, I have a very strong
relationship with risk.
I think that it's also personalfor each person, but for me, my
risk, I wouldn't have gottenanywhere in my life if I wasn't
capable of accepting a certainamount of risk and at times an
(32:49):
exorbitant amount of risk.
I ideally don't want to takethat much risk, but risk is a
normal, natural part of life,and it's something that I.
I'm learning every day because Iput myself in positions that are
slightly risky, that I havesomething to lose.
I think it also makes you feelvery alive and very grateful.
(33:09):
I can't believe where I'm at inlife right now.
I, I'm so grateful and risktaught me that, you know, not
everybody has been able to livea life like this, you know,
openly gay, blue collar guy witha family, I mean.
To me it's, it's so beautifuland it's such a everyday present
thing to be like, wow, I knowhow rare and how awesome this is
(33:32):
because of where I came from.
Is there anything that scaresyou?
Oh yes.
Releasing this book scares me.
Talking about it publicly scaresme.
You know, it's one thing to kindof like come into your, your
head and just kind of, you know,come to terms with things on
your own, quietly in your owncorner.
It's a whole other thing tobring it out into the open and
then get people's responses, seehow people view it themselves.
(33:57):
Um, so yeah, this whole processis scary.
I think that, you know, being afirefighter, it's, it's not, not
scary running into a, a fieryinferno.
It's absolutely scary.
It's just you do it for areason.
And I think for me, I talk aboutit in the first two chapters of
the book, Viktor Frankl's Man,search for Meaning.
When you have a reason to dothings, then the fear kind of
(34:20):
goes away a little bit.
It's always there.
But it's when you have a reason,you kind of push through.
And so I have lots of reasons,you know, to continue forward
and to release this book.
And I, I really, I did it formyself, my younger version of
myself.
'cause I, I had a hard timefinding those examples.
Um, and I did it also for thenext generations, like I hope.
(34:42):
This book is so irrelevant, youknow, tomorrow, today, that like
the next generation's like, wow,that's crazy that that happened
back in day, the time capsule.
I can't wait.
Brett Benner (34:54):
Right?
That's.
Yeah, totally.
Exactly.
And there's a whole queerfirehouse somewhere.
Lance Garland (35:01):
Oh, I can't wait.
Yeah,
Brett Benner (35:02):
I can't.
That would be awesome, right?
Flame throwers number 42.
Right, exactly.
Lance Garland (35:08):
Yes.
Brett Benner (35:10):
We, first of all though, first thing I wanted to
say to you is I just, I findyou're so interesting'cause you
have such an interestingdichotomy between a job that
puts you at risk, that is attimes high, high stakes and all
manners of it.
And then the other side of youthat's about.
Solitude and quiet and hikingand you know, mountain climbing
(35:30):
and being close to nature.
It's so yin and yang and I, Ithink that is so fascinating in
how one schism of your life kindof feeds the other part and back
and forth.
It's, it's.
It's fascinating and it's bigdips, like most people will go
see a scary movie.
(35:51):
So you say earlier in the bookhow your parents had encouraged
you and your siblings to becomemissionaries.
Yeah, and I, I want, I justlooked up, the actual definition
of a missionary is someone whois sent somewhere to help
promote a certain faith orprovide services to people.
And it's so interesting to methat you've kind of fulfilled
that desire.
Even though it's not in the waythat they might have originally
(36:14):
seen it.
Oh, funny.
But hearing you speak about thisstuff, um, I, uh, you said
across the decades of my lifefrom child to young man to
adult, I realized that I've beencreated, conditioned, encouraged
to be this in role and in thatactualization I have come full
circle.
And I thought that was so.
(36:36):
Beautiful to see, and I thoughta lot about your parents and
your mom, and I hope that sherecognizes that.
And in you,'cause in justtalking to you, you are, you are
a servant in some ways.
And I don't mean that in a, ina, it literally, like if, if.
(36:58):
Christ and was very much thatmuch a servant of the people and
what you're doing for people andhow you're helping people.
I think it's, it's really kindof amazing how it's kind of come
to fruition.
Lance Garland (37:10):
It's so interesting.
I, I don't think Iintentionally, you know, it
wasn't something that I tried todo.
It's, it's just how life playedout.
And in that way I'm reallygrateful to my parents for
giving me such a greatupbringing.
You know, I think that it washard being a gay kid in that
environment, and I think thatthere's a lot about the
(37:30):
religion.
Stuff that I don't agree with,but there's so much good that I
was able to take from myupbringing and, and, you know,
share that with the world.
And it took a lot of years tounderstand that and to see it
from that perspective.
The good with the bad, And soI'm really grateful that I can
(37:50):
take those lessons from mychildhood and, and use them, and
I hope to do this.
I feel so like huge obligationsbecause I've been so privileged.
I mean, I know how I'm writing abook right now about the
historical figures in,mountaineering who were queer
that I found, and how trulybrutal their past and their
(38:12):
lives have been.
And that is a common threadthrough queer history.
I'm just looking at my life andhow, how have I been so lucky?
I mean, granted, it's beentough.
It's crazy stuff that'shappened, but man, I've been so
lucky and I just feel soobligated to help continue that
storyline.
Like, how can we continue tohelp people be lucky and live
(38:35):
good, supported beautiful lives?
Like, isn't that what everybodywants?
Yeah.
I hope to continue that threadand to give back and to
encourage it.
Brett Benner (38:44):
But I would also also say to you, I think there
is luck involved, but I alsothink it's some of your choices
and it is perseverance and butalso that's what you view as
luck.
Some of that's just inside youas a person, so that that speaks
volumes and certainly I.
Luck is involved, but I'm a firmbeliever that like attracts like
(39:05):
and positive will attractpositive.
And I just look at you and I'mso, first of all, like I'm so
blown away just in terms of yourspirit and your positivity and
the way.
That you choose to live yourlife.
I think it's amazing and I'm soexcited to see you and I feel so
fortunate to be able to,hopefully for a long time, watch
(39:27):
you with your kids and the wayyou are as a dad.
I think you guys are both gonnabe amazing, but as your children
grow up and the lessons thatyou're gonna teach them and, and
that, I think it's a reallyamazing thing.
So.
Congrats.
It's just, I think it's great.
Lance Garland (39:38):
Thanks Brett.
You know, you, you've lived andcontinue to live a phenomenal,
beautiful life and are anexample to the community.
I mean, boy, do we need those?
Every single one of those lightsshining.
And so thank you for doing that.
And, and you're doing all thesame stuff.
You're out in the community, youknow, giving back.
Awesome stuff for people,especially writers who, I mean,
(40:00):
we know how hard it is forwriters to, you know, make a
living and do do what they love.
So thank you for that.
The, the literature world needsmore of us, I think, and I hope.
I agree.
Yeah.
So thank you for being thatlight.
Well,
Brett Benner (40:16):
I appreciate that.
I think we're all now more thanever.
I think,, we all need it,whatever that way is to kind of
pull each other through,whatever this is.
Yeah, I agree.
Thank you so much for sittingdown with me.
The funny thing is that I got onthis earlier, we could have done
it at one of our housestogether, but,, that would've
been.
(40:36):
But please go out and get thebook, buy independent if you
can.
But, but it's really fantastic.
So thank you for being here.
I'm, I'm excited to see whereall this goes and obviously I'm
excited just to hang out.
Well, likewise.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me, Brett.
This
Lance Garland (40:51):
has been an awesome conversation and, yeah,
very real.
And boy, I love thoseconversations that are just
real, so thank you.
Brett Benner (40:59):
Thank you again Lance, and if you like what you
heard on today's episode ofBehind the Stack or on other
episodes, please consider likingand subscribing so you never
miss an episode.
And again, what would be reallyhelpful for me is if you could
give the show five stars and ifyou have the time, possibly a
review.
All of those things really helpto get new eyes on the podcast
(41:20):
so I can continue to bring greatconversations like this.
I'll see you next week withanother episode.
Hey everybody, it's Brett and welcome or
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack, this
special non-fiction Novemberbonus episode.
So today I am sitting down withauthor Lance Garland for his
memoir out there.
The way I met Lance, I'm notgonna tell you about here.
I'm gonna let our conversation,the podcast tell you that story.
(00:20):
But it just goes to show thatsometimes these conversations
and these meetings come up inthe most unlikely of places.
But Lance is a really great guyand I was thrilled to be able to
sit down with him.
So a little bit about him.
He is a veteran, firefighter,nature adventurer, and writer.
his work has appeared in outsidetravel and leisure.
Backpacker Orion and elsewhere.
(00:41):
His honors include thePathfinder Prize, a fellowship
at the Banff Center's MountainWriting Residency, and a
catalyst grant from the AmericanAlpine Club.
He lives on Bainbridge Island,Washington.
So I hope you enjoy this episodeof Behind the Stack.
I am really happy to be sittingdown today with Lance Garland
(01:04):
for his memoir that justrecently came out out there,
dispatches from my personalwilderness.
Thank you so much for beinghere, Lance.
It's great to see you on thescreen.
Lance Garland (01:18):
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be a guest today.
Brett Benner (01:20):
I have to back up and tell really quickly, I, I
wanted everyone to know thatsome of the way this came about,
it's so random and so funny, isthat Lance and I have a mutual
friend who I had met beforemoving up to the Pacific
Northwest and who also lived inthe same area, and she's like,
oh my gosh, I have to introduceyou to my friends and.
(01:42):
So I was like, great.
So she ended up introducing andthe funny thing was you and
Oliver were having a party,which you were not'cause you
were working.
And so I actually didn't meetyou.
I met Oliver, but all of yourfriends in this incredible
community.
And actually Maggie wasn't thereeither because she was working.
So it was this kind of thisstrange thing.
But it was great'cause we got tomeet all these people and then
(02:04):
it was like the connection of.
Of, of putting it all together.
And then you had the book comeout, so it was kind of really
fortuitous and like, how luckyare we to have met you guys?
And so it, this for me is kindof extra special because, um,
literally like.
You're my neighbor, which is socool.
(02:24):
I love it.
It's so rad.
And I'm such a book nerd.
So imagine my excitement when I,you know, I actually met you on
Instagram first.
I didn't know that you were thefriend Maggie was trying to
connect us with and I was like,your Instagram is incredible.
This is so awesome.
So imagine my excitement whenI'm like, oh wow, this is my new
neighbor.
This is awesome.
(02:45):
I know.
So it's funny'cause I thought,okay, we'll have plenty of,
plenty of stuff to.
Geek out about.
So that's really great.
So
Lance Garland (02:51):
I, I need to ask, were you always an outdoor kid?
I did not grow up, uh, goingmuch into the outdoors other
than going to like the localbeach.
And in the Pacific Northwest,you know, you gotta take beach
with a grain of salt.
Literally, it's a rocky,heavily.
Seaside where you can see theother side of the water.
So it's just more like aninland, but that was the most
(03:12):
outdoor stuff that I did growingup is just like day trips to the
beach.
I was not a camper.
We, we went camping maybe twiceas a family.
It was a disaster, so, wow.
It was not something that myfamily did.
Uh, do your siblings have it aswell, that kind of adventurous
spirit?
No.
I'm the only one who's.
You know, outdoor enthusiasts.
People think I'm crazy for thethings that I do all these day
(03:34):
long backpacking trips where youdon't get to shower and you're
just dirty and gross andmiserable for half the time.
But I was in the Navy, and thisis actually in the book where a
friend of mine invited me out toa backpacking trip.
Brett Benner (03:46):
In the
Lance Garland (03:46):
North Cascades National Park.
And we went out there because wehad read this book by Jack Haack
Desolation Angels, and in thatbook, Jack Haack writes about
his time as a fire lookout.
So my buddy's like, let's go tothis fire lookout.
You can get out there.
It's super deep, but let's goout there and camp and go see it
for ourselves.
So I went on this trip and that,that was the last year I was in
(04:07):
the Navy, I think it was twoseven.
So a while ago.
And we went out there and Ijust.
Fell in love.
I mean, we, we were miles andmiles and miles away from the
nearest road.
Mm.
The way we did at that time, wegot dropped off by a water taxi.
So we hiked from the highwaydown, got a water taxi, took us
out in the middle of nowhere,and then we're 30 miles away
from the nearest road, and thenwe go on like a seven mile hike
(04:30):
to get to this.
This fire lookout and it to, tothis day, I mean this fire
lookout is just so symbolic ofmy life and what, the, the
outdoors has given me.
So
Brett Benner (04:40):
I'm having like shades of John crack hour.
I, yeah.
Yeah.
I should back up a little bitbefore, you know,'cause I
started to launch it and then Iwas like, I didn't even really
talk and ask you if you couldgive a kind of elevator pitch of
what your memoir is about.
That would be great.
Lance Garland (04:56):
Yeah, so the memoir is pretty much about me,
how I overcame the challenges ofmy life.
I was openly gay in the Navyduring Don't ask, don't tell.
Before that, I was raised in ananti-gay religion, so I wasn't
capable of coming to terms withwho I was in the Navy.
I became a witness in a courtmartial.
(05:16):
That threatened my career.
And then after the Navy, I hadto rebuild my life and become
the first openly gay fireman inthe Seattle Fire Department.
So how I got through all thosechallenges.
For me, I needed like somethingthat helped me out and and
nature is the thing that helpedme.
It gave me resilience and itgave me this opportunity to
(05:37):
reflect.
So the book is about how Imanaged to get through all that
really tough stuff.
And it's kind of an homage tonature and the outdoors and how
that can help not only me, butthe community, you know, get
through their tough hours.
Brett Benner (05:53):
So your, your, your family, you have two
siblings, right?
I have three, yep.
You have three and you're at theupper end, correct?
Lance Garland (06:01):
Yeah, I'm the second.
So, but I'm the oldest boy.
My sister is the oldest.
So I kind of the oldest byproxy.
Um,'cause she was the only girlshe was.
But anyway, yes, there's,there's four of us.
Brett Benner (06:12):
Yeah.
And so you, you, you talkedabout it was a pretty
conservative.
One would almost say severereligious upbringing.
It was a fundamentalist Baptistchurch.
You were homeschooled.
Right.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat in, in terms of your
upbringing, in terms of the,your parents and the way they
kind of wanted to effectivelyprotect you all from, from the
outside?
Lance Garland (06:29):
Yeah.
The way, the word that they usedwas sheltered.
They kept us sheltered from theworld.
Um, I, I was homeschooled.
I was also put through thechurch's school and then towards
the end my parents didn't haveany money, so we ended up going
to a public school that was.
Very small, kind of homeschooledgroup that turned into a public
school.
Interesting stories, but thepoint is, is that they wanted to
(06:52):
shelter us and not give us asecular education.
The byproduct of that is that Ididn't know what gay was until I
started working at 16.
Really?
I mean, I, I, there's a scenewhere.
In the book, uh, a guy fromhomeschool kisses a boy and it
becomes this thing.
Um, and he goes to conversiontherapy.
And for me, before that allhappened, I was like, oh, this
(07:14):
is amazing.
You can kiss a boy.
This is so awesome.
But then the aftermath of it wasvery severe and it became very
apparent in my coming of agethat it would ruin my life if I
was gay, a hundred percent I'dbe excommunicated.
Who knew what was outside?
The circle of my upbringing.
I had no idea if you couldsurvive out there.
(07:35):
It was, it was a scary situationto feel like your involvement
and belonging was contingent onyou not being gay.
So, I mean, I don't think thatmy parents were like, you know,
hateful of gay people.
It's just that they weren'tallowed, it was just not
something that was in the sphereof influence.
(07:55):
So, and then we find out laterhow that goes.
Brett Benner (07:57):
It's so interesting.
Did you,'cause you said at 16you became, you know, you
probably had a name for it, butwere you aware you had, like,
were you aware when you wereyoung?
Like something's, something'sdifferent, something, even if
you couldn't
Lance Garland (08:09):
verbalize it yet?
A hundred percent yes.
I knew from a very young ageand.
You know, we didn't have asecular idea of what gay was,
but in church, and there's ascene in church where, you know,
they say God hates homosexuals.
They're an abomination.
That's my understanding of whatthat is.
I didn't know about like samesex love.
It was just this two men havingsex is.
(08:31):
You're going to hell.
You know, I didn't know thatthere was another idea of what
gay was that you could bemarried and have kids or you
know, just any other ideas?
I had no concept of gay cultureat the time.
Brett Benner (08:42):
It's interesting hearing you say all this because
you know, not to the severity ofwhat you went through, but you
know, I was raised in the churchas well, and so reading about
how you would go twice onSundays, sometimes during the
week, all of this.
So resonated with me.
But having that awareness, likeyou said, of something is off
(09:05):
and also something is, is reallywrong and not knowing how to,
uh, I, I, you know, put intowords, or even frankly, the
worst part is having anyone tobe able to talk about these
feelings that are coming up.
Right,
Lance Garland (09:21):
totally.
There's a moment in the bookwhere my grandma, who is not
religious, kind of comes, setsme aside and tells me, and I
didn't understand what this waswhen she said it at the time,
but it stuck with me.
She said, Lance, there's nothingwrong with being gay.
And it just stuck.
'cause I was like, what do youmean?
What is this?
(09:41):
And it took me decades to likeunderstand.
I was very young when she toldme that.
It took me forever to understandwhat that meant and what she was
saying to me, and it to me, thatwas profound that I had some
support in that, you know, darkplace because, you know, growing
up as a queer kid in a,unsupportive or even, you know,
scary environment.
(10:02):
I mean, that does horriblethings to our community.
I mean, I don't want to go intothe details, but you know, I'm a
firefighter now, you know, I, Isee the, you know, the suicide
rate for underrepresentedgroups, marginalized groups,
and, and queer people are one ofthose.
And I thought there was nofuture for me too.
And when you think there's nofuture for you, then how do you
live?
Brett Benner (10:22):
Yeah, there was just a, it was almost just a
sentence in the book where youtalk about praying to God,
confessing your sins and askingfor him to change you.
And I so remember that like Iwent to church camp.
Every year, and it's funny, whenI reflect back on it, I had a, a
counselor who was so wonderfuland loving, and I don't
necessarily think he was gay,but I think as a young person,
(10:44):
I, I was crushed out on him, butnot, fully able to understand
that, but mm-hmm.
I'm sure that as a.
Sensitive adult.
He probably recognized somethingand he was very, gentle and, you
know, in terms of how he dealtwith me and, and very loving.
And so, and I think about that.
(11:04):
I think about that a lot.
You talk, there's a sequence inhere where, your sister had a
teacher that she loved who wastaken outta the school because
they were gay.
And then, then later there wasa, the same teacher, Mr.
Dennis, who was a reallyinfluential teacher for you., In
terms of writing, but I have toread something.
He had, you were talking abouthow he came back from the summer
(11:24):
vacation and he had pictures,but they were just pictures of
him.
Yes.
And you're questioning who tookthose pictures and who was on
the other side of that and hesaid there was truth there
somewhere.
And I knew somewhere else,someone I.
Else had to have taken thosepictures all across Europe, I'd
imagine, who that person couldbe content to take the pictures
and not be in them.
Content to be invisible, silent,non-existent.
In the majority of Mr.
Dennis's world, at least fromour perspective, a deep sadness
(11:48):
began to form me.
Hiding was essential.
Silence was the only option, andthat just killed me.
I recognize that completely.
I had that same, mine was adrama teacher who was so
influential to me, but I thinkeven now, the amount of teachers
who are under attack for eitherbeing gay in these conservative
areas or being just supportiveand recognizing in kids that
(12:10):
there's something differentthere.
It's just such a hard thing.
Lance Garland (12:13):
Absolutely.
I mean, seeing all the bookBannings and the Don't Say Gay
in Florida, and I mean it, it ahundred percent triggers me from
my youth.
You know, it's, yeah.
It is something that I talk withmy, my best friend was with me
on this whole journey of life,and we talk about that.
Like, can you believe that thisis still going on?
And even, you know, coming backso strong with like a new
(12:35):
administration of this, thishatred and this intolerance.
So, yeah, it's, it's incrediblyscary and I think our teachers
are put in a horrible positionbecause teachers awful are
supposed to show you the worldand, and encourage curiosity and
then when they're not allowedto, it's, I mean, it is awful.
I think that teachers have themost important job in society
and they are put in animpossible position with
(12:57):
politics
Brett Benner (12:58):
being raised in this environment.
I'm just curious, how has yourview of religion changed?
Do you view yourself as areligious person or, or more of
a spiritual person, or how doyou view it?
Lance Garland (13:08):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
I had a conversation two daysago about this.
I, I am not a religious person.
I don't follow a dogma.
Mm-hmm.
But it's funny because likeJesus is the, the icon in the
Christian religion, and Ipersonally think that Jesus is
an incredible role model.
I still try to model my lifeafter him.
I mean, what an incredible wayto live your life.
(13:29):
Um, but as far as, you know,going to church or adhering to a
structure, that's not really mything.
I, me and my husband talk aboutthe fact that, you know, we're
having kids now.
We just had our, our first kidand.
Instead of raising them in areligion, we wanna give them
some sort of structure.
And my answer to that structureis nature.
You know, I want them to feelconnected to the earth, to the
(13:50):
world, to be able to go out andand experience those spiritual
moments that I've found in themountains, in the forest.
You know, on the ocean, in theseas.
And so that's my sort of standinis this deep connection to place
is my religion.
Mm-hmm.
But I don't have anythingagainst religious people as long
as they don't try to hurt me andmy family.
(14:12):
I think that I've met on myjourney, lots of Christian
people who are incredibly lovingand incredibly supportive and
really are emblems of what Jesusstood for.
And then I've also seen the oneswho are constantly trying to,
you know, control.
Have intolerance and, and hatredand discriminate.
And I mean, so I have no placefor that in my life.
(14:33):
I, I welcome religious people aslong as they are a human and,
and have kindness and, andunderstanding.
Um, and unfortunately, you know,the types of churches that I
grew up in that is not allowed.
There is no communication.
Yeah.
I was excommunicated when I,when I came out, very few people
talked to me again from thatwhole environment.
After I came out, it was clearas day.
Brett Benner (14:55):
But your family does, I mean, I know your
relationship with your mom hasevolved a lot, but do you still
keep up with your dad?
Lance Garland (15:01):
No, me and my dad are sort of excommunicated and
that's a whole nother story thatis kind of in the book, but is,
you know, a lot to go through.
But um, yeah, as far as my mom,I think I put my mom in our
evolution in this book because Ithink it's a great example of.
Even when there's thisdifference and even when someone
really believes in in theirreligion, you can still find a
(15:22):
path to reconciliation and to arelationship.
And me and my mom found thattogether and it was hard and it
was long and we had to have alot of patience and a lot of
conversation.
But now it's amazing.
She calls my husband, her son inlove, love that.
She is incredibly supportive.
I love that.
And she's, you know, her, Ithink her understanding of her
(15:43):
religion has evolved.
In the journey as well, which iswhat we all can hope from when
we learn from each other andlove each other, is that we can
evolve and learn about eachother.
Brett Benner (15:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm, I'm jumping to the NavySeals because these are the
things I learned.
I, first of all, I didn't knowthat, seals stood for sea, air
and land.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I've learned all thesethings.
And because basically an assaultcan happen from any point,
whether it's land or sea, or theair, which is.
Amazing.
Now, you were always kinda drawnto the idea of this was like, as
(16:15):
a young kid, you liked actionmovies.
You liked the idea of like,these people that were like
super spies and doing all thesethings.
Oh, and, and then, and then yousaid that nine 11 was really the
catalyst for you to wanna pursueit.
So you were probably like, what,15 when nine 11 happened?
Gosh, that's,
Lance Garland (16:31):
I'm not totally sure.
It was two years before Igraduated, so maybe like 16?
Yeah, something like that.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (16:37):
So.
So we get into the Navy sales.
First of all, it, this was oneof the parts for me that I
literally was like, I'm outbecause I could, the fact that
people did this, the fact thatpeople go through this grueling,
grueling.
Process of trying to become aseal like my hat's off to you.
(17:00):
This part here where it said, wedo hundreds of pushups in sets
of 20 while they growl at usfrom above.
Then push us with our gear outthe door and into a hallway
clogged with pedestrian traffic.
Bodies are everywhere.
The instructors do not tire downthree flights of stairs and into
a gauntlet of pressurized water.
We crawl and come out into thegrinder.
They keep the hoses on us.
(17:22):
Water burns my eyes as I see.
Flares igniting the courtyard onall sides.
Explosions come from the cornersas they line us up in ranks.
All right, at this point, I'vealready pooped my pants and like
I, I, so you, you've gotta talkabout this because I think this
takes a special person and thefact that you went even as.
(17:43):
Like where you went through withthis process, just the physical
part of it.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthis?
And also what I think ishilarious is you kind of ran
into this to try to escape yoursame-sex traction and you landed
yourself in a sea of probablythe hottest, most in-shape
beautiful men in all kinds ofenvironments.
Lance Garland (18:05):
I mean, it's hilarious.
It's ironic.
I mean, I, I tried to lean intothat a little bit'cause from.
My vantage point in life, I'mlike, wow, what was I thinking?
What was I thinking?
Uh, but you know, you, youmentioned what is a CLC Air
land, like?
It made perfect sense because Iwanted adventure in my life.
Mm.
I wanted to do the seas, Iwanted to, to go through the
(18:26):
land.
I want, you know, I wanted toexplore.
That was my whole, like in myheart, I had been kept in this
tiny cage my whole life.
I wanted to go out there, get,see the world.
That was the whole point someoneneeded to
Brett Benner (18:38):
tell you, you need to work on a cruise ship.
Lance Garland (18:40):
There's so many different ways would, so much
easier.
It's it's so true.
And it's, and it's funny becausethat's where my upbringing came
in, right?
It's like I was taught that whatyou do.
You serve your country and youserve your family, you know?
So I was very much followingthis, even though I was trying
to get out, I was still very inthe dogma of following the
(19:01):
strict path that life shouldtake.
And, you know, I wasn't quiteready to accept myself as being
gay.
When I went to seals, I thoughtthat this was a way for me to
get over it, you know, reallydeep down I was like, oh, if I'm
a seal.
All of my problems go away, youknow, and then I'm there.
(19:22):
I'm like, okay, it's not goingaway.
Okay.
Then I start to daydream about,well, can I be in a gay Navy
seal, you know, and, and hearthat thought excites me.
You know, I'm like in, in themiddle of this, this is an
incredibly dangerous thing todo, in my opinion at the time is
to be a gay Navy seal.
But I'm like, can I be that?
And I came to the conclusionthat I couldn't be.
(19:45):
I, I follow that thread all theway to, you know, becoming the
first openly gay fireman.
And I, I revisit that'cause Ifind out who the first openly
gay Navy Seal was and it didn'tgo well for him either.
So long story short, there atNavy SEAL Training, I was
getting to know who I really wasand I knew I loved adventure.
I knew I loved to explore, but Ialso knew I was gay.
(20:07):
So I had to come to thisconclusion.
I just had a total breakdownthere in my brain and in my
soul.
I was like, what am I gonna dowith my life?
And I decided to go out into theunknown instead of trying to fit
myself into this box that Icould not fit into.
And then that's, in my opinion,where my life really started.
(20:28):
But boy, it was not easy.
From the moment I made thatdecision for years afterwards, I
was still trying to figure outhow I could live, you know?
And that's when I get into don'task, don't tell.
I, you know, I do not become aNavy Seal.
You know, I, I, I tried and Ichose not to continue.
And then I went out a ship andfell in love for the first time
(20:51):
and.
Traumatic to say the least forme and for, um, my boyfriend.
Brett Benner (20:59):
Were you able, when you were going through all
of this in the beginning, wereyou able to, were you able to
talk to anybody about any ofthis or was it like a floodgate
for you if you were afraid?
If you started talking, youwouldn't stop talking and so you
had to keep your mouth shut.
Lance Garland (21:12):
When I left the Navy Seals, I said, I'm telling
everybody.
Like, I'm, I'm not, I was 19years old.
I went to, my friend, told herimmediately, and she was the
first person I told wasincredibly supportive.
She was like, this, this isawesome, Lance.
Like, she was so supportive.
And then I started telling myfamily and then that was wild.
(21:33):
You know, the differentreactions were huge.
And then the church found out,you know, and then I never
talked to the church peopleagain, pretty much.
And so I was being very, veryopen.
But then I got to the ship.
And I realized, oh, I can't beopen here, can I?
So then I started to try tofigure out, you know, I, I would
tell my closest friends, therewas a small group of people on
(21:53):
the boat that I was out to.
I don't think it was like.
Shocking to anybody when theyfound out I was gay.
'cause I was sort of livingopenly but silently, if that
makes sense.
And then when I fell in lovewith my boyfriend on the ship,
that's when it really couldn'treally keep it a secret anymore.
And then I get involved with a,court martial where he was
(22:15):
sexually assaulted by somebodyelse on the boat.
And then everything just goes toabsolute hell after that.
Because even telling your story,even being a witness, it wasn't
even my story, it was, it was myboyfriend's story and I had
some, some very smallinformation that helped the
case.
The guy who had assaulted himthreatened to kill me, and so I,
(22:36):
you know, was a witness and I,and I told the court, I told the
investigators that that hadhappened and then it opened up
the floodgates into, well.
You know, your personal life isnow on the line.
It's open for discussion.
So then I was outed officiallybecause I was a witness in the
trial.
There were no witness rights,you know, in that situation.
So really it just, it laid bareeverything about my life.
(22:58):
I was completely vulnerable andopen and expecting to be kicked
out.
Dishonorably discharged from theNavy and I was really lucky.
And I won't go into all thedetails'cause it's a lot in the
book.
Did you read it?
I did not get dishonorablydischarged, and that to me was
the first real show of supportand goodness in humanity that
(23:19):
really was able, I was able tohold onto this fact and create a
whole new life.
Even though I was dealing withall the tra traumatic events of
my past, I had this thing thatsomebody else did for me.
To, to stand up for me.
And for me that was lifechanging.
And it has continued to, like,to this day still, I'm still in
(23:39):
contact with this person.
They are an absolute model ofhumanity in my, in my life.
And I hope to repay pay itforward because one person's
actions completely changed thedirection of my life.
Brett Benner (23:51):
There's such sequences both in the Navy Seals
and in the, and when you weregoing through the training to be
a fireman that where you'repushing yourself so hard and,
and I think it's part of this,speaks to your excellence in
terms of how well you were doingto be honorably discharged.
Because you were, not only wereyou doing everything you were
supposed to be doing and doingit right, you were doing it
(24:12):
better than most of the people.
And I kept thinking was some ofthis drive for you?
Tied to your sexuality and tiedto those concerns.
Lance Garland (24:22):
Absolutely.
I think as queer people we'reheld to an extremely high bar,
this, this idea of excellence,there's no other option because,
you know, it's so hard to, in,in my experience, to succeed as
a queer person, as an openlyqueer person in life.
There's so much against you thatyou have to be perfect.
(24:43):
You have to be excellent.
It's actually something that Italk about with my friends now
and, and with my therapist,this, this need to be perfect.
It's not really serving me.
And so yes, that absolutelyinformed my trajectory for sure.
It gave me the motivation.
There's also negatives to thattoo, but I think that.
(25:04):
I also had a lot of emotionalstuff and and traumatic
experiences that I needed towork out.
And the way that I could work itout in my mind, in a healthy way
was physically, and you know,that that did happen through
work, through the Navy andthrough firefighting.
But even to this day, you know,I go on these long physical
treks to go climb mountains.
(25:26):
To me, it's cathartic.
It's a way to, you know, havethat introspection with myself,
come to terms with what hashappened in my life, and then
also choose how I'm gonna reactto these things that have
happened.
And so, yeah, the physicalfacts, the, the part of that
process have been incrediblyhelpful for me to overcome some
(25:47):
of these really terriblesituations.
Brett Benner (25:49):
So jumping ahead a bit of 27, you got, uh, evicted
from your apartment because theland was being developed and so
you ended up living on a boat,which, and, and let me just add
that it was a small boat.
Small boat for someone who wassix small three, right?
I think there's something to methat's very poignant and telling
about.
You who is physically so largetrying to push yourself down to
(26:12):
live into these, it's almostlike your spiritual and
emotional life was running intandem with your physical life
at that point.
I agree.
Totally.
So interesting.
Lance Garland (26:23):
I, you know, and I love that, that chapter, I try
to sum up most of that six yearsin one chapter.
It really was teaching me thephysicality of it, me squeezing
myself into these tiny boxes, menot being able to just stand up
straight and own who I am inlife and accept the good, the
bad, the ugly, all of it, justto accept it, you know?
(26:44):
I was trying so much to be thisidea and living on the boat kind
of laid all that bear too, andit gave me.
A chance to understand my bodymore.
It was very introspective, itwas very isolating as well.
I was alone a lot of the timeliving alone.
But I was also able to say,okay, so this is who I am.
This is, and now what do I wantto do with this?
(27:06):
Where do I want to go?
And then, you know, the boat.
I could sail, I could goanywhere.
And I did.
I sailed all the time and I'dbring friends along and it
opened up this new chapter ofadventure for my life.
I think that that was when I wasstarting to say, I'm not gonna
hide anymore, and it's not assimple as a one decision.
You know, I, I'm not gonna hide,I'm out, period.
(27:29):
Coming out is a continualprocess.
You get a new job, you have tocome, come out to everybody at
your new job.
Always, always, you know, it's acontinual thing.
So, but I wanted to get to thepoint where it wasn't a problem
or a challenge.
Every time I came to the tablewith it, I wanted it to be
nonchalant.
I wanted it to be how I feltabout it inside, which was like,
I'm proud of who I am, but I'mnot that different from
(27:49):
everybody else.
Right?
And so that's when it started toreally, and you'll see in the
firefighting.
When you put that to the fireand when there's costs
associated with it, and when youcould lose your job again and
all these things, it's not soeasy to, to step up to the
plate, and it requiresdedication and determination and
(28:10):
a lot of messiness.
My life, I, I did not live aclean, perfectly trimmed life.
It was messy.
I made so many mistakes, butsomehow along the way in that
messiness, I got to amazingplaces.
And so the fire department forme was that reward, uh, hard
earned, um, not only through thephysical aspect of becoming a
(28:31):
firefighter, but overcoming allmy past to be able to be okay
with who I'm as an openly outgay man.
Brett Benner (28:40):
So take us through then, what led you to, to the
firehouse?
What led you to say, I'm gonnabe a firefighter,
Lance Garland (28:46):
you know.
It came down a couple things.
One is the physical.
I love the physical stuff.
I need to be doing stuff with mybody.
I need to be lifting or hikingor climbing and this, all this
stuff.
But you know, I learnedsomething in the Navy is that I
really wanted to help people andsomething I learned from the
Navy Seals is I got there and Irealized that.
Their version of helping peopleis to be assassins and kill the
(29:08):
bad guys.
And I'm like, that's not what Iwas thinking I wanted to do.
I wanna help people.
I want to actually likephysically help remove them from
danger.
And so it really became a, likea psychological, a philosophical
like lifestyle choice of.
I wanna go to people in theirdarkest hour because I know what
(29:28):
it's like to be in your darkesthour and not have someone, and
I'm like, I want to go out thereand be that person for someone.
And firefighting.
Was the fastest way I could dothat with, with my background
and, and my skillsets.
And I loved it.
I found this really, thisspiritual quality to giving back
to the community throughfirefighting.
(29:49):
And, you know, I've experienceda lot of death through that job
being with people in their finalmoments and, and to have that
honor of, and thatresponsibility to be with
somebody as they, as they leavethis.
World.
World and offer them kindnessand support and love.
I think that that's a phenomenaltask to try to rise to that
(30:09):
occasion.
Um, and then also just runninginto burning buildings and, and
trying to pull people out.
That doesn't happen as muchthese days'cause we have good
technology.
There are fires, but people getout quicker.
So more what we deal with is themedical side of, you know,
people having heart attacks andpeople in car accidents, and
that's more of the modernfirefighting.
But yeah, I get to do a range ofthings and that excites me.
(30:30):
I think that's what.
Showing up to work every day andnot knowing what was gonna
happen is something that reallygets me going.
I think that's awesome, but alsoprobably a byproduct of my past.
Brett Benner (30:40):
And maybe you can explain this to me'cause I don't
know, like I grew up when mybrother was a volunteer fireman
and I don't know if some do somecities or.
Counties have strictly it'svoluntary versus being employed.
Lance Garland (30:52):
Yeah.
So I, that's how I started mycareer.
Right after college, I startedvolunteering on an island close
to Seattle, VA on island.
And usually it's your way, yourproving ground.
It's like being an intern.
You know, you, you work forfree.
To show them what you've got.
You get your certifications, youbuild a platform, and then
ultimately, yeah, you hope thatthat leads to a professional
(31:12):
paid career job.
I think at the time that I wasvolunteering, I was.
There were 70% of the workforceof firefighters in the nation
were volunteers.
Wow.
So really, you know, the bigcities are where, or the suburbs
are, where you get to, you know,be paid to be a firefighter.
So many firefighters do it outof the kindness of their heart.
(31:33):
Wow.
Brett Benner (31:34):
And this was the other thing, I know you, I'd
asked you this previously, howmany.
Firefighters are there in justthe Seattle station, is that
what I'm saying?
Is that or that division?
Yeah, so
Lance Garland (31:44):
the city of Seattle, they have about 40,
roughly 40, uh, fire stationsacross the city and over a
thousand firefighters outta us.
Brett Benner (31:54):
Yep.
Wow, that's really, reallyincredible.
Has your views about the job andthere is risk.
There's risk with any job, buthas it changed at all now since
you're a debt?
Lance Garland (32:04):
Yeah.
Well it's funny'cause I onlybeen a dad for seven weeks now
and I haven't actually went backto work yet.
I'm still on the parental leave.
So, you know, going back towork, it's gonna be funny.
I am gonna go back to work as adad and, and as a publish author
of a book talking about thisjob.
I a hundred percent expect forthings to be different.
I think.
For me, you know, risk, I, as agay man, as a outdoor
(32:26):
enthusiast, as a firefighter, asa a veteran, risk has been a
very big part of my life.
Mm-hmm.
Um, it's a constant and it,it's, I have a very strong
relationship with risk.
I think that it's also personalfor each person, but for me, my
risk, I wouldn't have gottenanywhere in my life if I wasn't
capable of accepting a certainamount of risk and at times an
(32:49):
exorbitant amount of risk.
I ideally don't want to takethat much risk, but risk is a
normal, natural part of life,and it's something that I.
I'm learning every day because Iput myself in positions that are
slightly risky, that I havesomething to lose.
I think it also makes you feelvery alive and very grateful.
(33:09):
I can't believe where I'm at inlife right now.
I, I'm so grateful and risktaught me that, you know, not
everybody has been able to livea life like this, you know,
openly gay, blue collar guy witha family, I mean.
To me it's, it's so beautifuland it's such a everyday present
thing to be like, wow, I knowhow rare and how awesome this is
(33:32):
because of where I came from.
Is there anything that scaresyou?
Oh yes.
Releasing this book scares me.
Talking about it publicly scaresme.
You know, it's one thing to kindof like come into your, your
head and just kind of, you know,come to terms with things on
your own, quietly in your owncorner.
It's a whole other thing tobring it out into the open and
then get people's responses, seehow people view it themselves.
(33:57):
Um, so yeah, this whole processis scary.
I think that, you know, being afirefighter, it's, it's not, not
scary running into a, a fieryinferno.
It's absolutely scary.
It's just you do it for areason.
And I think for me, I talk aboutit in the first two chapters of
the book, Viktor Frankl's Man,search for Meaning.
When you have a reason to dothings, then the fear kind of
(34:20):
goes away a little bit.
It's always there.
But it's when you have a reason,you kind of push through.
And so I have lots of reasons,you know, to continue forward
and to release this book.
And I, I really, I did it formyself, my younger version of
myself.
'cause I, I had a hard timefinding those examples.
Um, and I did it also for thenext generations, like I hope.
(34:42):
This book is so irrelevant, youknow, tomorrow, today, that like
the next generation's like, wow,that's crazy that that happened
back in day, the time capsule.
I can't wait.
Brett Benner (34:54):
Right?
That's.
Yeah, totally.
Exactly.
And there's a whole queerfirehouse somewhere.
Lance Garland (35:01):
Oh, I can't wait.
Yeah,
Brett Benner (35:02):
I can't.
That would be awesome, right?
Flame throwers number 42.
Right, exactly.
Lance Garland (35:08):
Yes.
Brett Benner (35:10):
We, first of all though, first thing I wanted to
say to you is I just, I findyou're so interesting'cause you
have such an interestingdichotomy between a job that
puts you at risk, that is attimes high, high stakes and all
manners of it.
And then the other side of youthat's about.
Solitude and quiet and hikingand you know, mountain climbing
(35:30):
and being close to nature.
It's so yin and yang and I, Ithink that is so fascinating in
how one schism of your life kindof feeds the other part and back
and forth.
It's, it's.
It's fascinating and it's bigdips, like most people will go
see a scary movie.
(35:51):
So you say earlier in the bookhow your parents had encouraged
you and your siblings to becomemissionaries.
Yeah, and I, I want, I justlooked up, the actual definition
of a missionary is someone whois sent somewhere to help
promote a certain faith orprovide services to people.
And it's so interesting to methat you've kind of fulfilled
that desire.
Even though it's not in the waythat they might have originally
(36:14):
seen it.
Oh, funny.
But hearing you speak about thisstuff, um, I, uh, you said
across the decades of my lifefrom child to young man to
adult, I realized that I've beencreated, conditioned, encouraged
to be this in role and in thatactualization I have come full
circle.
And I thought that was so.
(36:36):
Beautiful to see, and I thoughta lot about your parents and
your mom, and I hope that sherecognizes that.
And in you,'cause in justtalking to you, you are, you are
a servant in some ways.
And I don't mean that in a, ina, it literally, like if, if.
(36:58):
Christ and was very much thatmuch a servant of the people and
what you're doing for people andhow you're helping people.
I think it's, it's really kindof amazing how it's kind of come
to fruition.
Lance Garland (37:10):
It's so interesting.
I, I don't think Iintentionally, you know, it
wasn't something that I tried todo.
It's, it's just how life playedout.
And in that way I'm reallygrateful to my parents for
giving me such a greatupbringing.
You know, I think that it washard being a gay kid in that
environment, and I think thatthere's a lot about the
(37:30):
religion.
Stuff that I don't agree with,but there's so much good that I
was able to take from myupbringing and, and, you know,
share that with the world.
And it took a lot of years tounderstand that and to see it
from that perspective.
The good with the bad, And soI'm really grateful that I can
(37:50):
take those lessons from mychildhood and, and use them, and
I hope to do this.
I feel so like huge obligationsbecause I've been so privileged.
I mean, I know how I'm writing abook right now about the
historical figures in,mountaineering who were queer
that I found, and how trulybrutal their past and their
(38:12):
lives have been.
And that is a common threadthrough queer history.
I'm just looking at my life andhow, how have I been so lucky?
I mean, granted, it's beentough.
It's crazy stuff that'shappened, but man, I've been so
lucky and I just feel soobligated to help continue that
storyline.
Like, how can we continue tohelp people be lucky and live
(38:35):
good, supported beautiful lives?
Like, isn't that what everybodywants?
Yeah.
I hope to continue that threadand to give back and to
encourage it.
Brett Benner (38:44):
But I would also also say to you, I think there
is luck involved, but I alsothink it's some of your choices
and it is perseverance and butalso that's what you view as
luck.
Some of that's just inside youas a person, so that that speaks
volumes and certainly I.
Luck is involved, but I'm a firmbeliever that like attracts like
(39:05):
and positive will attractpositive.
And I just look at you and I'mso, first of all, like I'm so
blown away just in terms of yourspirit and your positivity and
the way.
That you choose to live yourlife.
I think it's amazing and I'm soexcited to see you and I feel so
fortunate to be able to,hopefully for a long time, watch
(39:27):
you with your kids and the wayyou are as a dad.
I think you guys are both gonnabe amazing, but as your children
grow up and the lessons thatyou're gonna teach them and, and
that, I think it's a reallyamazing thing.
So.
Congrats.
It's just, I think it's great.
Lance Garland (39:38):
Thanks Brett.
You know, you, you've lived andcontinue to live a phenomenal,
beautiful life and are anexample to the community.
I mean, boy, do we need those?
Every single one of those lightsshining.
And so thank you for doing that.
And, and you're doing all thesame stuff.
You're out in the community, youknow, giving back.
Awesome stuff for people,especially writers who, I mean,
(40:00):
we know how hard it is forwriters to, you know, make a
living and do do what they love.
So thank you for that.
The, the literature world needsmore of us, I think, and I hope.
I agree.
Yeah.
So thank you for being thatlight.
Well,
Brett Benner (40:16):
I appreciate that.
I think we're all now more thanever.
I think,, we all need it,whatever that way is to kind of
pull each other through,whatever this is.
Yeah, I agree.
Thank you so much for sittingdown with me.
The funny thing is that I got onthis earlier, we could have done
it at one of our housestogether, but,, that would've
been.
(40:36):
But please go out and get thebook, buy independent if you
can.
But, but it's really fantastic.
So thank you for being here.
I'm, I'm excited to see whereall this goes and obviously I'm
excited just to hang out.
Well, likewise.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me, Brett.
This
Lance Garland (40:51):
has been an awesome conversation and, yeah,
very real.
And boy, I love thoseconversations that are just
real, so thank you.
Brett Benner (40:59):
Thank you again Lance, and if you like what you
heard on today's episode ofBehind the Stack or on other
episodes, please consider likingand subscribing so you never
miss an episode.
And again, what would be reallyhelpful for me is if you could
give the show five stars and ifyou have the time, possibly a
review.
All of those things really helpto get new eyes on the podcast
(41:20):
so I can continue to bring greatconversations like this.
I'll see you next week withanother episode.
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