May 30, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with Lucas Shaeffer to discuss his debut novel,'The Slip'. They talk about the wide range of characters inhabiting the story's boxing gym, the town of Austin, the many facets of identity, and a possible fascination with clowns.
Lucas Shaeffer's website:
https://www.lucasschaefer.com
Lucas' instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/lucaseschaefer/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or
(00:02):
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack.
It is the beginning of what I'mcalling a double feature June
here on Behind the Stack whereall month long I will be having
two guests per week.
I couldn't cut people.
I was trying to.
Whittled down my schedule, and Iwas like, you know what?
I'm just gonna go for it.
And so I have a packed schedulethis month with a lot of great
(00:23):
interviews and some fantasticbooks that you could pack up for
the summer, including this onetoday.
But before we get into that, Iwanted to talk about a couple
new books that are also comingout today as well, which sound
particularly interesting to me.
The First is a book that's gonnabe all over the place this
summer, which is Taylor JenkinsReed Atmosphere about a female
(00:48):
astronaut.
It looks really good.
I think it's gonna be a reallybig book and I've just reading
like Goodreads reviews peoplereally seem to love this one.
So there's that.
Also How To Lose Your Mother, ADaughter's Memoir by Molly Jong
Fast.
Molly Jong Fast is the daughterof Erica Jong, and this is her
story about how she dealt withher mother's encroaching
(01:08):
dementia.
Then.
Debut author Nini Berndt thereare reasons for this, which I'm
reading right now.
Claire Masud says It'swonderfully, makes the strange
familiar and the familiarstrange.
It's truly memorable.
It's a really interesting book,not very long about, a woman who
becomes obsessed with herbrother's girlfriend and her
(01:31):
brother has died and she movesinto an apartment across from.
her brother's girlfriend andwhat happens?
it's really interesting.
It's really good writing.
It's one of those things thatimmediately pulls you in and I'm
interested to see where it goes.
So there's that.
Another book that's been gettinggreat pre-publication reviews,
the listeners by MaggieSteifvader Maggie, Steifvader
(01:54):
has primarily been a youngadult, fantasy, romance, or
romantic writer.
This is her first adult book,and this looks really good.
Set in a luxury hotel in WestVirginia in 1942., That ends up
having to house Nazis during thewar.
So there's that.
Then Tramps like us by JoeWestmoreland.
(02:17):
This is actually a reissue byM-C-D-F-S-G following a young
gay man crisscrossing the 1970sand eighties America and search
of salvation.
I think this looks reallyinteresting.
And then the last book I wannamention is also going to be my
guest later this week on theshow.
The book is, it's Not The End ofthe World by Jonathan Parks
(02:38):
Ramage.
It is a crazy apocalyptic storyabout two men who are determined
to get their baby shower off theground, even though the end of
the world seems imminent.
So come back for that later thisweek.
Now onto today's guest.
I was really happy to have LucasSchafer and his debut novel, the
(02:58):
Slip On Today.
For readers of Jonathan Franzenand Nathan Hill comes a haymaker
of an American novel about amissing teenage boy cases of
fluid and mistaken identity, andthe transformative power of
boxing.
A little bit about Lucas Lucas'swork has appeared in one story,
the Baffler Slate and otherpublications.
(03:19):
He holds an MFA from the NewWriters Project at UT Austin And
lives with his family in Austin.
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
I'm thrilled to have LucasSchaefer here today for his
debut novel, the Slip.
(03:41):
You could tell that I, I markedthis thing all up.
I have to tell you, Lucas,whenever I do one of these
interviews, I usually try to, toread it, you know, well enough
in advance to sit and ponder andall of the things.
But for whatever reason, Ireally did not want this book to
end, and I kept taking my timethrough it.
And so I, I literally finishedthe last 40 pages last night,
(04:08):
and.
Oh my God, I was so blown awayand I almost, I almost reached
out to you last night but I waslike, you're gonna talk to him
in the morning, like, calm down.
I.
It is so, phenomenal.
You're the editor's pick, I haveit right here in Kirks reviews,
with starred you, you're beingcompared to Franzen and Roth and
(04:30):
Irving and Nathan Hill, and allof these are, are such, apt
comparisons.
So congratulations.
Not only does it just a, noteven debut.
It's just a phenomenal book, socongratulations.
Lucas Schaeffer (04:44):
Thank you so much.
That was a very niceintroduction.
Brett Benner (04:47):
so for our listeners Lucas, is the, the
proud owner of a baby boy.
He's about six months intofatherhood.
So how is it going for you guys?
Lucas Schaeffer (04:58):
Oh my God.
It is truly an adventure.
I know that, I know everyonesays you'll never be prepared,
but we truly we're not prepared.
But it's great.
You know, it's every day there'snew where we, we today was our
first day with a sippy cup withwater.
Oh wow.
Yes.
There wasn't any, any drinkingof the water.
But there is hammering the tablewith the cup and we've moved to
(05:20):
some solid food.
We're into the Turkey puree.
So we're, we're good.
We're, yeah.
Life is, life is good.
And, and father, well, maybe notfather land, but
Brett Benner (05:29):
Are you gonna be the, the kind of parents that,
do all the food yourself andpuree all the vegetables?
Or are you just going to be tojarred food?
Lucas Schaeffer (05:36):
We're already not those parents.
I, I think we aspire.
We aspire there.
The, in fact, downstairs there'sjust arrived a like black and
decker blender.
Because we had our blender died,you know, years ago and was
never, was never replaced.
And, so I think we, we willeventually, aspire to be making
(05:59):
our own baby food, but for nowwe're in a Gerber situation.
Who seems to be loving it?
Oh yeah, as far as I can tell.
Brett Benner (06:07):
Alright, so wait, backing up with you a second.
You grew up in Newton, mass?
Lucas Schaeffer (06:11):
I did.
Brett Benner (06:11):
Okay.
And were you an only child?
Lucas Schaeffer (06:14):
I was not.
I have a younger brother who's,a, a teacher in Massachusetts.
Brett Benner (06:18):
Okay.
And did you always wanna write?
Lucas Schaeffer (06:22):
I did, but I wasn't always writing.
I, I mean, I was aspired to, todo that.
And then I, uh, I moved toAustin in 2006 when I was 24,
and then I met my now husbandGreg in 2011.
Okay.
And when I met him, I was,teaching seventh grade and he
(06:45):
was at the Mitchner Center inthe Graduate Creative Writing
program at ut.
And you know, we dated for a, ayear or so, and I thought, well,
he's doing this.
I want to, I wanna do that.
He's having more fun than I'mhaving.
So then I, I started writingmore seriously and ultimately
applied to graduate school andwent to the new writers project
(07:07):
at ut, and the rest is, ishistory.
But I, I was really not right.
I'm, I'm now 42.
I was not writing, I would sayseriously until I was about 30.
Brett Benner (07:19):
And what brought you to Austin initially?
Lucas Schaeffer (07:22):
Kind of nothing.
I, Had graduated college andmoved to Brooklyn and was living
there for a couple years and itjust, it felt a little like, um,
you know, I love, I love NewYork, I love living New York,
but it felt a little bit like.
What I was supposed to do orsomething.
Mm-hmm.
Like, it, it just felt verylike, I'm from the northeast,
(07:42):
I'm living in the northeast,this will be life.
And I was just hungry to trysomething different.
And I had a professor fromcollege who had previously lived
in Austin, that's where he'd hadsort of his formative years, and
he said, you should give Austina try.
And I, I knew a couple peoplehere, but I really didn't know
anyone.
(08:02):
All that well, I had a couple offriends, one friend who as soon
as I moved here, immediatelywent to law school and moved
away.
So I, I basically didn't knowanyone initially and just made
this my my city.
Wow.
Brett Benner (08:15):
Wow.
That's really cool.
And I wanna get back to Austinitself in a little bit, but,
it's funny, the commondenominator for so many writers
that I've had on this show thatcomes up over and over and over
again, which I love because he'sone of my favorite writers, is
Alexander Chi.
Mm.
And he seems to have to havetouched so many of you.
(08:36):
In one way or another.
I then when I saw.
That, you know, he was helpfulto you as well.
I was like, wow, this guy islike, he's everywhere with
everyone and I love it.
Lucas Schaeffer (08:48):
He, yeah, I mean, he was very instrumental
in this book, in that when youread the first chapter of this
book, that was, something I, Istarted in his workshop in a
very different form and.
He was, he, he pushed me in amore novelistic direction.
Mm.
You know, I think when you'restarting graduate school, short
(09:11):
stories are kind of the currencybecause you're in workshop and
they're short enough to, youknow, be able to, to workshop
and et cetera, et cetera.
But I, I really am, am more ofa, a long form writer,
naturally, and I think he helpedpush me in that, in that
direction.
I.
That's awesome.
(09:31):
And it's just a great, greatteacher.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (09:33):
Yeah.
Um, okay.
So for our audience, do you havean elevator pitch Sure.
For the slip?
Lucas Schaeffer (09:41):
Sure.
So the slip is about a veryhapless teenager named Nathaniel
Rothstein, who is from Newton,Massachusetts.
Who gets into a fight at schooland is suspended, and as
punishment is sent to live inAustin, Texas with his uncle for
the summer of 1998, his motheris tired of dealing with him and
(10:03):
in Austin, his uncle sets him upat a job at a, a volunteer job
at a nursing home where he fallsunder the sway of a very
charismatic.
Immigrant from Haiti named DavidDeli, who is the activities
director there and is also aformer boxer and gets Nathaniel
involved in boxing and over thecourse of this very formative
(10:26):
summer.
Hapless miserable.
Nathaniel transforms, into amuch more confident young man,
and really takes to boxing.
And at the end of the summer, hedisappears, never to be seen or
heard from again.
And the novel follows a verywide cast of characters over
about 20 years as we figure outwhat, what happened that summer
(10:47):
and what happened to Nathaniel.
Brett Benner (10:50):
That was great And if you could have heard me
trying to explain this to myhusband over dinner last night.
Mm-hmm.
Because I was like, I hadgotten, of course, I told you I
got to the end and we went todinner afterwards and I was
sitting there and I, and I waslike steeped in the book and
steeped in those last fivepages.
And so I was like.
I, I'm sorry.
I'm gonna tell you about thisbook in broad strokes, and I
(11:13):
have to speak about this becauseyou are the only person that's
near me right now.
And I found myself going in andI was like, I'm getting more
confused as I'm going through.
It makes so much sense, but I'mso overwhelmed right now.
So that was so crystal clear.
First of all.
What was the inspiration forthis for you?
Where did it start?
Lucas Schaeffer (11:32):
So, I would say the inspiration for the book
started at a, a real boxing gym.
In Austin.
So when I first moved here in2006, I really didn't know
anyone.
Mm-hmm.
And I saw an advertisement for aclass at a boxing gym, and I was
already living in Texas, whichseemed very unlike anyone in my
(11:53):
family.
Not, not how I was, you know,not, not how people conceived of
my life.
Uh, perhaps.
So I thought, well, I'm alreadyin Texas.
I might as well do this otherthing that seems completely
uncharacteristic and.
Took this, this boxing class,and I ended up going to this gym
for about five years.
(12:14):
It's Lord Lord's gym in, in, inAustin for anyone familiar with,
with the city.
And one of the things thatreally struck me about the gym
was it was a place where therewas everybody, race, class,
gender.
Sexuality.
I mean, it was just such a widecross section of Austin and was
(12:37):
such a great introduction for meto Austin.
And, you know, the, my, mypersonal experience at the gym
was really, really positive.
And I, I worked out there forfive or six years and then ended
up moving a little bit southand, and stopped going mostly
for, for that reason.
But.
It did present a lot of dramaticpossibilities in terms of, you
(13:01):
know, so much of American lifeis segregated racially by class,
et cetera, and there are notthat many places where people
really crossover and meld andare all together.
And the gym was one of them.
So I thought, this is the placethat I can write about.
(13:22):
And as a writer, that's, that ismy interest.
Right?
How do we get along across theselines that typically divide us?
Is it possible to get along?
How do we all live together inthis country?
Which seems like a question,that's relevant right now and,
and is always relevant.
Living in America.
(13:43):
That was the impetus, juststarting with the gym and
characters from the gym.
And it's funny, you know, now ifyou read the book, there's
basically, there's very littlefrom the gym, the, the real gym
that has made it into the book.
But I think that's spirit of.
Worlds crossing, worldscolliding.
(14:04):
The, the tension that that cancreate and also the opportunity
that that can create, uh, issort of where I started
Brett Benner (14:12):
It's interesting because, when I was thinking
about the book last night, to meit feels like, because you have
all these characters and the gymis kind of the centerpiece that
everything in front of thefulcrum, which everything kind
of works out of, it feels almostlike an orchestra to me.
And each of these characters isa separate instrument in the
orchestra.
Yeah.
And you get these moments ofsomeone being highlighted you
(14:33):
this, this is the clarinet andthis is the violin, and this is
the piano.
Until they all kind of cometogether and you see the whole
piece.
And that's kind of how I viewedthis book, that you are kind of
the conductor who's pulling usthrough all of this with this
boxing ring in the center of allof it.
And it's so, so beautifullydone.
(14:55):
And in terms of moving back andforth through time and how
things are revealed throughother characters, it's just,
it's so exceptional.
But I was like.
God, I wonder if he is a boxingfan.
Like that was my first thought.
I thought, I wonder if he'searly into boxing.
Lucas Schaeffer (15:10):
It's funny because I loved the gym and I
loved a boxing workout, and Iloved, I.
The people, but I'm really not aboxing fan.
And, and watching, one of thethings I actually learned, I
really didn't like was seeingpeople I knew Box because it's
like, ugh, I don't, I don't knowif I wanna watch this.
I like those guys.
(15:31):
Don't hit each other, you know?
So.
It was not a natural, but Ithink in a way it was actually
the perfect subject for mebecause I was curious about it
and I also didn't know so muchabout it that I was gonna let
kind of the technical aspects ofboxing get in the way of the
story.
Yeah, I think this is a bookthat is certainly about.
(15:52):
Boxing to some extent, but youreally need no knowledge of
boxing or interest in boxing to,to get into the story.
And I don't know, had I beenmore of a aficionado or a more
of a fan of boxing, I, I don'tknow if I could have written it
in the way that I did.
Brett Benner (16:10):
Yeah.
It's so interesting because Ithought as I was going through
it too, uh, I work out at a verysmall gym here in Los Angeles,
but my trainer and I, we've saidfor years, I don't understand
why no one has made a sitcom outof a gym because exactly this.
There are so many differenttypes of characters who cross
and intersect, and the kind ofdrama that plays out in a
(16:32):
gymnasium or in small gyms.
And the interactions.
I was like, there's so muchrichness to pull upon here.
So
Lucas Schaeffer (16:39):
it, it's funny, when I first started going to
the gym, I mentioned earlier Iwas teaching and I taught
seventh grade at an all girlsschool.
And so it was, you know, my, my15 I.
12 and 13 year olds.
And it was so funny becausethere was so much more drama at
the gym than Yeah.
At school with these like middleschool girls.
(16:59):
I was like, how is this possiblethat there's like the love
affair, all just fraught, um,you know, fraught funny things
happening.
Brett Benner (17:09):
Yeah.
And probably throwing sometestosterone and some hormones
and you, you, you amp everythingup a little bit.
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Lucas Schaeffer (17:18):
Absolutely.
Brett Benner (17:20):
How long did it take you to write?
Lucas Schaeffer (17:25):
I've been saying 10 years, but I think it
was probably a little longer.
Wow.
Really?
I, I basically, I went tograduate school in, in 2013.
And started the project then I'dinitially conceived of a linked
story collection about differentcharacters at the gym and just
over the, over the years, andthis is one thing Alex Chi was
(17:48):
helpful with and other mentorswere helpful with as well.
Things got too intertwined.
Mm-hmm.
I was, you know, it was, I waslike.
Chafing against the structureI'd created for myself, and I
think when I allowed myself tojust explode the structure and
say, no, no, no.
This is a novel and everyone'sreally intimately linked, but
(18:10):
we're still gonna go in all ofthese different directions.
I think that was a bigbreakthrough for me because I
was trying to fit the story intothese sort of 20 or 25 page.
Short stories and it just didn'twork because I, I, I wanted
bigger and more You wantedunderstand and, and so I, I was
(18:30):
able to knock down some of thosewalls and just, and
Brett Benner (18:33):
Some elements of the story were put out as short
stories and other publications.
Lucas Schaeffer (18:37):
Yeah, so a lot of the characters in the book,
were created in a short storythat came out in the magazine,
one story, and that story isactually not in the, in the
book.
Mm-hmm.
But it, it is, it, it helped me,We create a lot of these
characters.
And then there are a fewchapters that have appeared
individually as short stories orexcerpts in a couple of
(18:59):
different, different magazines.
And the first chapter of thebook is Now in the Common, which
is a great magazine that'sdedicated to exploring place,
and the whole first chapter isavailable online
Brett Benner (19:10):
Did you start with Nathaniel and this was the
beginning of the book for you?
And if so, I also wondered, didyou know the arc when you
started?
I.
Lucas Schaeffer (19:20):
I did not start with Nathaniel.
I, I started with some of themore peripheral gym characters.
There's a character in this booknamed Carlos Ortega, who's sort
of this gym, just shit stirrer,if I can say that on your
podcast.
Yes.
He is this.
40-year-old X boxer who's justalways in everyone's business.
(19:41):
And he's, I think anyone who'sgone to a gym is probably
familiar with some characterlike Carla's.
And he was just really fun towrite and a voice that I quickly
understood and, and knew well.
Um, so he was one of the, thefirst characters.
And then, you know, a funnything about.
The book is, is when IReconceived of it, certain
(20:01):
characters who hadn't worked inshort story format really came
to life in the novel.
So one of the very firstattempts at a story I wrote was
with a character who in thebook, um, is calling himself X.
And in the short story x.
Is this young, teenage boy who'shaving a lot of questions about
(20:24):
his gender identity and is justin a very teenage moment when we
meet him.
And initially I had him comingto the gym in the, in the book,
he doesn't really, he's notassociated with, with the gym.
His entry into the story isthrough a, a different, avenue,
which I'll let readers.
Figure out for themselves.
(20:44):
Because one of the fun thingsabout this.
This book is, it is a little bitlike a puzzle.
You don't know exactly howeveryone connects initially.
And that was also true for me asa writer.
Like, I didn't know I had thischaracter of XI was like really
enjoyed sort of getting to knowhim, but I hadn't figured out
(21:07):
what to do with him in the shortstory form and then, then in the
novel form it, it made sense.
Brett Benner (21:12):
Wow.
That is so fascinating.
You know, the big overreachingtheme of this novel is identity.
Yeah.
In so many facets.
Yeah.
Whether it's through race orgender or, sexuality.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat
Lucas Schaeffer (21:31):
yeah.
I mean, as a writer, that'sdefinitely the theme that's of
the most interest to me, how youknow, people of differing
identities and multifacetedidentities get along or don't
with each other.
And I think the, the racialaspect was I.
just something I was thinkingabout a lot,, just as a person
(21:56):
in the, in the country, youknow, as a citizen and as a
human being as I was startingthis book.
And so I wanted to, to reallylean in into that.
And, you know, Nathaniel, Ithink it's safe to say, has some
problematic.
Views about race, but I reallywanted to explore those,, and do
(22:17):
that with some intention.
And so that's sort of how that,the, the, the, the race element
came about.
And then, you know, there's, I.
A lot of thinking aboutsexuality in the book as well.
I think some of that is justfrom being gay myself, but also,
just a, a general fascinationwith identity and all, it's,
(22:39):
it's different forms.
And so I slowly sort of builtand, and then once the one, the
theme kind of built on itself,so one example I'll give you is
there's a character in the bookwho's a fairly minor character
named Gloria Ob, who's an older,resident at the nursing home who
plays a, a small but verypivotal.
(22:59):
Role in the book and I couldn'tquite get her character right in
the early days.
And I realized, okay, we'redealing with this broad theme of
identity.
We've got this woman who in, inthe story is Italian American,
but initially when I was writingit, that was very peripheral.
(23:22):
Like that was just, you know,her name was Gloria Abruzzi She
was obviously.
Italian because her name wasGloria Abruzzi And that was
that.
And then as I went to rewriteand figure her out,, I really
started to think about, okay,well what if, you know, she was
Italian and her family theirheritage was very important to
them, but she, for whateverreason, didn't identify as much
(23:45):
as Italian.
Like, let's play with that alittle bit.
And so slowly I sort of figuredout her character.
And that aspect of her identityends up proving really, really
important to the plot and tojust understanding who, who she
is.
So once I kind of went down thisroad of, okay, I'm interested in
(24:06):
identity broadly, it, it kind ofhelped me build some of these
more minor characters intofully, you know, hopefully fully
formed people.
It was just a lens through whichI could kind of enter their, I.
Psyches and, and theirpersonalities.
Brett Benner (24:24):
Yeah.
And it's an interesting thingbecause every, almost every
character in this book is, is,is searching for something else
in regards to identity.
And it's just in a fascinatingand examination.
Speaking specifically of the, ofthe Nathan of it all, Nathaniel,
I'm so curious were you everwith everything about out there
about, cultural appropriationwere you ever nervous in writing
(24:46):
it about what you were tackling?
'cause it's big swings and whenI started at it, I will say I
was all of a sudden like, oh mygosh.
But it also makes complete sensefor the narrative of what this
is.
Lucas Schaeffer (25:00):
I think that was the key for me.
I mean, I think this questionof, because I'm obviously
throughout the book writing alot of different characters who
are not like me.
Nathan in some ways is like mein that he's from the town I'm
from.
And he is white and he's Jewish,but in a lot of other ways.
He's, he's not like me.
He's, he's straight, he's veryshy.
(25:21):
He had a miserable high schoolexperience.
I I had a fun time in highschool, et cetera, et cetera.
So, he's probably, you know, hedemographically he's a lot
closer to me than some of theseother characters.
I think because I started withthe themes and the questions
mm-hmm.
Brett Benner (25:36):
And
Lucas Schaeffer (25:36):
knew what I wanted to write about, that then
kind of led to creating thisvery diverse cast.
Yeah.
I didn't start and say, I wannabe the white guy who writes, you
know, about, black people orabout people of color.
Right.
Experience or whatever.
Just because you know, I can dothat and that's my right.
Like that, that was not howthis.
(25:58):
Transpired.
So I think the question, youknow, when this issue comes up
really isn't, who has the rightto write what, because we can
obviously all write whatever wewant, but like, why, why are you
right doing this?
Right?
And and for me,, the racialtension in the book is so much a
part of my interest in the storythat it wouldn't have.
(26:20):
Work had I not leaned into it.
And then the other thing wasonce I decided to go for it, I
really wanted to like do it andexplore it.
And that meant having Nathanielhave.
Views that made me cringe.
But were familiar from life,right?
Yeah.
It meant having him makedecisions that are, I think we
can agree not he, he doesn'talways make good decisions.
(26:43):
But then it, it also meant withthe character of David, who's
his mentor, who has lived inTexas for almost 30 years, is
originally from Haiti, and is,is black.
It also meant with, with David.
Going there with him too andallowing him to be flawed and
him to make that decisions.
And just thinking about who, whothese characters are and how
(27:06):
they're moving through the worldand staying grounded in that and
letting that dictate, whathappens in the book.
And that was sort of my guidingprinciple throughout, because I
think there's the danger of.
With Nathaniel kind of notgetting right, his particular
racial outlook, I guess youcould call it.
(27:26):
But then I, I also didn't wannado the thing.
I think sometimes when, and Idon't actually have anyone in
mind when I say this.
I, I just think this is ageneral issue, but I think
sometimes when white writers arewriting outside their race.
I, I'd say probably,particularly with black
characters, there's, there canbe a tendency to do the other
thing of like, we're gonna makethis person so unimpeachable
(27:50):
that Yeah.
I I will then not be criticized.
Right?
Or a hundred percent we'regonna, you know, whatev whatever
the thing is.
And it's like, well that's not aper, none of us are like that,
right?
Yeah.
We all make that decisions attimes.
We all do things that are.
Yeah, questionable.
Or that we later think, oh, whydid I say that?
Why did I do that?
(28:10):
Whatever.
So I just want to go there withall of the characters and you
know, that's part of why thebook took so long, because it
was really thinking through, whothese characters were both as
individuals, and then also howtheir varied identities affect.
How they're perceived by, byother people.
Nathaniel is not every Jewishkid from Newton.
(28:32):
He's Nathaniel.
But at the same time, you know,we're all living in the same.
World and our skin color and oursexuality and how much money we
have.
All of those things affect howwe're perceived sometimes how we
perceive ourselves.
Brett Benner (28:45):
It's interesting 'cause as you're sitting here
talking about a lot of this, andthere is so much about race and
class.
Wrapped up in this identity.
And I think that the book doesforce you to start to ask
questions about your ownidentity and what we all as
people, the kind of outside facewe put on and the inside face
and, and, and who we are.
(29:07):
The privacy behind our closeddoors versus what we are outside
in the world.
Lucas Schaeffer (29:13):
Yeah, and I would, I'd also say with
Nathaniel specifically, I meanone of, one of the things I was
thinking about is I think we allhave an understanding of what.
People who are sort of overtlyracist are like, and those
people to me are not thatinteresting.
But Nathaniel is operating froma place, I mean, he really makes
(29:36):
some problematic decisions, buthe's also operating from this
place of really admiring Davidand, and loving David.
I mean, they're, they're,they're really friends by the
end of their time together.
Brett Benner (29:50):
And there's a fascination with David and, and
who he represents to Nathanieland, and, and aspirational as
well, I think.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Because, because of, of, of, ofwhat he thinks, well, I can be
this as well.
Um, that doesn't just includerace, but certainly that drives
a lot of it.
(30:11):
Um.
I do wanna talk about the excharacter for a minute.
'cause I thought Sure.
That he, he was so fascinating,especially because we are
talking about a narrative thatthat is taking place.
I believe this starts in 1998.
Am I getting that correct?
Yeah.
Lucas Schaeffer (30:26):
1998.
Brett Benner (30:27):
Right.
So.
All of these conversations aboutgender certainly and gender
identity.
And you refer to that in thebook at one point about these
conversations were really notever being had.
And the relevancy with what'shappening currently in our, in
our country, with trans peopleespecially.
But, How did he come about?
I, I, I just, I found him andhis journey in terms of both
(30:51):
gender and sexuality I, I thinkis so interesting.
Lucas Schaeffer (30:54):
Yeah.
So I'd say a couple things withthat.
I mean, one, one thing I domention in the, in the book that
I think is true is I think in1998 at, at the very least, he
was not privy to thoseconversations.
Yeah.
You know, I, I do think some ofthat was already happening
within, um.
Within certain circles, butthose were not circles that this
(31:16):
character not, but it's
Brett Benner (31:17):
certainly not a national circle, you know?
No, not a national
Lucas Schaeffer (31:20):
conversation.
Right.
And he, you know, I could bewrong about this because it's
now been.
So long and I start to forgethow everything emerged.
But I, I think what happenedwith X is there's another
character in the book, Belinda,who's ex's mother, who is who I
started with.
Wow.
Okay.
And Belinda is this formerPlayboy, playmate who is now
(31:47):
cutting hair and sort ofstruggling to make ends meet
and, So I created her and shewas a very recognizable Austin
character to me.
I think if you've lived inAustin, you have probably met
someone who is Belinda like atsome point.
And, um, I knew I wanted her tohave a, a family.
(32:07):
And so.
X was, was her child.
And you know, I think what'sfascinating about Belinda is
she's this person who hasreally, um.
Had some things happen to her asa woman.
And because she was a woman thathave affected her life and and
constrained her in some ways.
And so having her have this sonwho is exploring gender identity
(32:29):
and doesn't feel quite right,you know, as, as a boy or isn't
quite sure what's going on, withhis gender, that was really
dramatically interestingbecause.
Belinda has all of these.
I mean, she is homophobic andtransphobic to use our sort of
current, way of thinking aboutthis.
(32:49):
But she's also operating in herown way from a place of love
because she's like, I have beenthrough this and don't want
this.
For you.
Yeah, I know.
I love this
Brett Benner (33:00):
part, part of that relationship tension.
Yeah.
I love this part of therelationship because she's a
woman who know, like just beinga Playboy playmate, she knows
what she has, so to speak.
Yeah.
She knows what her appeal is,but also recognizes kind of the,
the patriarchy and her place init, but I was also fighting
against it.
Frankly, she always wanted a sonbecause she didn't want Right.
(33:22):
A daughter to have to go throughwhat she understands and
recognizes.
Lucas Schaeffer (33:24):
Right.
And the, when we were talkingabout these started as short
stories.
So the initial short story thatI wrote that is not in the book
and nothing like this happens inthe book is it's Belinda taking
X to the boxing gym and saying,if you're gonna explore in this
way, you need to learn how to.
Fight back and Wow.
And is just not, that's when youread the book, you'll see that
(33:47):
that is now, that feels likedefinitely not what happened.
Brett Benner (33:49):
Yeah.
And now that feels likesomeone's fan fiction.
Lucas Schaeffer (33:53):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, the problem withdoing this in sort of a short
story format is you can onlyhave so many stories where
someone goes to the gym for thefirst time.
Yeah, yeah.
For the first time.
Right.
You're not gonna have 20 storiesof of, of a person going to
Terry Tucker's box for the firsttime.
It's not a book.
I think most people wanna.
I wanna engage with.
Right.
Brett Benner (34:11):
So talk about Austin for a second, because,
um, sure.
It, it is in itself.
It, uh, a character in this bookin a lot of ways.
And for the, uninformed, firstof all, I had no idea that
Austin was such a literary hubto begin with.
I really knew there was literaryfestivals, but it is, it is
quite a, a place for writersand, and, and readers.
Lucas Schaeffer (34:32):
Yeah, I mean, I think coming from the northeast,
moving to Austin, Austin ishistorically a little more
casual than what you would findin the Northeast.
So I, I, I remember first movingthere very early on in my time
in Austin, I had a friend whoran a nonprofit and bill Clinton
agreed to do a charity event forher nonprofit.
(34:53):
And it was during the day and itwas outside, but I wore.
A, a dark suit because I waslike, this is the president of
the United States and.
People thought I was in theSecret Service because there
were, people were wearingshorts, there was like Hawaiian
shirts.
I was like, oh my God, this isthe best place.
Like I'm, I'm staying here.
But I think for me, I mean, Ithink what was so special about
(35:14):
my early years at.
The, the real gym in Austin was,I feel like I just got to meet
such a broad swath of the city.
You know, I think we havecertain ideas about Austin,
whether it's like the Dazed andConfused Austin or now like the
tech bro Austin, and like all ofthese are accurate, but they're
(35:37):
not the whole story.
And I just feel like I.
Really got to have this, thisfriend group and this social
circle that was, much more wideand and varied throughout the
city than I would've hadotherwise.
And so that definitely inspireda lot about this book.
And I love.
Books like White Teeth and NW byZadie Smith.
(35:59):
I love Edward P.
Jones, Jennifer Egan, thesewriters who really take you
through an entire community, Andinto these little nooks and
crannies of the community.
And I really wanted to try myhand at doing that for Austin,
um, which is a city.
There were great books aboutAustin, but I wanted to kind of
put my own, my own spin on it.
(36:20):
And the other thing, and this istrue about both Austin, and it's
true, there's a little bit ofthe book said in in Newton, in,
in My Hometown, a lot of thingshappen in this book that are
pretty wild, right?
Yeah.
And I, I really wanted to groundit in, real places because.
I, I just, I, I wanted thatfeeling of this is really
(36:43):
happening.
And even if wild things happen,it makes sense, and of course
they're happening, right?
Like this, it, it's not asatire, it's not fantastical.
It, it really is supposed to bekind of read as you know.
Realist sounds a little bitridiculous, but it's literal.
It's really, yeah, yeah.
Right.
What, what's happening on thepages?
What's happening?
(37:04):
And so part of that for me, justmentally away, I did that, was
including a lot of real places.
So like the restaurants, I,because I went through a phase
of like, okay, well I go toMagnolia Cafe, but we can't call
it Magnolia Cafe.
What about Sunflower Cafe?
And it was like, I'm not doingthis for.
This entire city that I knowpretty well.
(37:25):
So we're just gonna haveMagnolia Cafe, be Magnolia Cafe
and the Sculpture Garden is thatAnd Barton Springs Is Barton
Springs, yeah.
And you know, the, the highschool Nathaniel goes to is
Newton South High School, whichis where I went to high school.
And I, I just felt like this wasa way for me to keep, keep me as
a writer and also the reader,you know, readers who are
familiar with those placesgrounded in them.
Brett Benner (37:47):
No, I loved it.
You also do a really interestingthing.
And of course again, it was akind of, window into some of the
people of this world.
Later in the book, Nathaniel'sUncle.
Is in a class with a group ofwomen.
Yes.
And, and it kind of takes onthis, omniscient, viewpoint as
(38:07):
we go with these women and theirperception of what's happening.
And I thought that was soingenious, but, but talk about
that for a second.
What led you to put that inthere?
Lucas Schaeffer (38:17):
Yeah.
So the women are in a Jewishwomen's book club and they
decide to enroll in.
Something called Citizen PoliceAcademy, which I think is no
longer called that, but is areal thing that's offered.
It does exist.
Oh, wow.
It exists all over.
There's pro, there may be one inLA for all I know.
I mean, they're, they're in alot of different cities, but I
(38:38):
enrolled in Citizen PoliceAcademy to see Wow.
To see what it was all about.
So, so for listeners who'venever heard of this, this is in
Austin.
It's a 14 or 15 week class.
You go to Austin Policeheadquarters for four hours each
week and you get thesepresentations from different,
um, you know, the homicidesdetective comes and talk to the,
(39:01):
talks, to the gang suppression,the, you know, nuisance
abatement society, you know,group, the people who deal with
hoarders and it's.
It's billed as sort ofintroducing you, letting
citizens understand how thepolice department works.
There's obviously, a, apropaganda element there.
They, this is their chance tokind of put out their, pr, which
they're fairly open about.
(39:22):
And then you also go on a ridealong with the police officer.
Which, I did a couple of thosebecause this appears in the
book, you follow a policeofficer for, for quite a while
in the book.
So I did two overnight shiftswith, with officers.
This was about 10 years ago.
And, because I was, writingabout, the issues in this book,
there's race, there's crime, youknow, really sort of, I wanted
(39:44):
to see what was going on.
Brett Benner (39:48):
This is your Real Life Cops episode.
Lucas Schaeffer (39:50):
Well, I'd heard about this class and I was like,
this is so bizarre.
Like, what is this?
But it struck me as, you know,various characters are trying to
figure out the mystery of whathappened to Nathaniel.
It struck me, the class just.
Had some characters in it andwas just, it, it's, it's sort of
just a weird idea.
(40:11):
and was just unusual.
So I started playing around withthat.
And then, the why is it narratedthat one chapter from the point
of view of three women in aJewish women's book club?
I will maybe leave that forreaders to interpret on their
own, but I will say, I mean, I.
One of the ways I think that Iwrote this book was coming in
(40:31):
kind of sideways at some of thedifferent plot points and, and
plot issues.
So, you know, Bob Alexander, whois Nathaniel's uncle, who ends
up investigating what had sortof playing detective himself.
You know, I think he would'vebeen the obvious narrator for
that chapter.
But it somehow.
Just with my own way of writingand thinking.
(40:54):
It just didn't quite work.
It was too on the nose.
There was something, you know,not quite happening.
So I thought, well, who could heenlist,, sort of to help him
and, and these women kind ofemerged.
Brett Benner (41:05):
I.
Oh my God, it's so great.
It's almost like a Greek chorusof of, of, yeah.
Of women.
It's, it's, it's really Thankyou.
It's great.
I just have to say on a sidenote, and this of course becomes
a plot point, and I don't wannago into it But, I did also
notice this on your Instagram isyour fascination with clowns.
And so I was like, wow, hereally, are you a pro clown
(41:26):
person?
Generally?
Are you someone who's scared ofclowns?
Lucas Schaeffer (41:29):
Okay, so Austin, the Alamo Drafthouse,
whenever the movie IT two cameout, like it number, the sequel
ticket hit.
Yeah.
They had a clown's onlyscreening of it too, where you,
to be admitted to the screening,you had to go dressed as a
clown.
And I had a friend who reallywanted to do this and who was
also very good with makeup andso got a bunch of us together
(41:52):
and really went for it.
Like the wigs, the bow ties, theeverything.
And I think that I do have afascination with clowns but I do
think the photographic record ofthis one event has sort of.
On social media made it seemperhaps like I have more, like
every image of me dressed as aclown is from the it too
screening in 2019 or wheneverthat movie came out.
(42:14):
Just feel like it was one
Brett Benner (42:15):
time people, it was one time.
One, it was one time.
Lucas Schaeffer (42:18):
But I do find them, you know, I, I find them
sort of interesting sort ofmalicious characters.
Brett Benner (42:25):
It's what what's done in the book is so, um,
again, you talked about thingsthat, you know, literally are
happening, And this for me, thisvery akin to something that John
Irving would think of.
So, um, yeah, I, I, I kind oflove that.
I wanna, I wanna kind of closeout with this quote from the
book, which I think.
Spoke to me.
(42:46):
It's towards the end, but itdoesn't give anything away, but
it kind of speaks to me aboutthe book as a whole.
Anyway, I, I'm not even gonnasay who this is, but I'll just
say, I'll read the quote peopledon't go to boxing gyms to stay
the same.
We're not static.
The world is not static.
Stories that start as one thingsometimes become another.
And I thought that was such agreat encapsulation of the book
(43:08):
as a whole, and who all thesepeople and the journeys they go
through.
So
Lucas Schaeffer (43:12):
thank you.
Yeah,
Brett Benner (43:13):
I, yeah, absolutely.
This has been so great.
I can, I could talk to youforever and, um, continue and
unpack this and I'm, so excitedfor people to discover,, the
mystery of Nathaniel, but alsothis treasure trove of such
amazing characters.
Thank you.
So please go by the slip.
(43:34):
Woo.
Sorry, go by this.
No, no, Buy independent if youcan, but I definitely get it.
It's truly, dare I say aknockout.
That's so cheesy of me.
Thank you.
But thank you so much for beinghere, Lucas.
This is, this is such apleasure.
Lucas Schaeffer (43:47):
Thank you for having me.
Brett Benner (43:48):
Thank you again Lucas, and if you've liked what
you heard today and are enjoyingthese episodes, please consider
liking and subscribing on yourpodcast platform of choice.
Also, what would be reallyhelpful is if you could leave a
review, that would be amazing.
And once again, I will be backlater this week with author
Jonathan Parks Ramage to discusshis new book.
(44:09):
It is not the end of the world.
So until then, have a greatweek.
Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or
(00:02):
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack.
It is the beginning of what I'mcalling a double feature June
here on Behind the Stack whereall month long I will be having
two guests per week.
I couldn't cut people.
I was trying to.
Whittled down my schedule, and Iwas like, you know what?
I'm just gonna go for it.
And so I have a packed schedulethis month with a lot of great
(00:23):
interviews and some fantasticbooks that you could pack up for
the summer, including this onetoday.
But before we get into that, Iwanted to talk about a couple
new books that are also comingout today as well, which sound
particularly interesting to me.
The First is a book that's gonnabe all over the place this
summer, which is Taylor JenkinsReed Atmosphere about a female
(00:48):
astronaut.
It looks really good.
I think it's gonna be a reallybig book and I've just reading
like Goodreads reviews peoplereally seem to love this one.
So there's that.
Also How To Lose Your Mother, ADaughter's Memoir by Molly Jong
Fast.
Molly Jong Fast is the daughterof Erica Jong, and this is her
story about how she dealt withher mother's encroaching
(01:08):
dementia.
Then.
Debut author Nini Berndt thereare reasons for this, which I'm
reading right now.
Claire Masud says It'swonderfully, makes the strange
familiar and the familiarstrange.
It's truly memorable.
It's a really interesting book,not very long about, a woman who
becomes obsessed with herbrother's girlfriend and her
(01:31):
brother has died and she movesinto an apartment across from.
her brother's girlfriend andwhat happens?
it's really interesting.
It's really good writing.
It's one of those things thatimmediately pulls you in and I'm
interested to see where it goes.
So there's that.
Another book that's been gettinggreat pre-publication reviews,
the listeners by MaggieSteifvader Maggie, Steifvader
(01:54):
has primarily been a youngadult, fantasy, romance, or
romantic writer.
This is her first adult book,and this looks really good.
Set in a luxury hotel in WestVirginia in 1942., That ends up
having to house Nazis during thewar.
So there's that.
Then Tramps like us by JoeWestmoreland.
(02:17):
This is actually a reissue byM-C-D-F-S-G following a young
gay man crisscrossing the 1970sand eighties America and search
of salvation.
I think this looks reallyinteresting.
And then the last book I wannamention is also going to be my
guest later this week on theshow.
The book is, it's Not The End ofthe World by Jonathan Parks
(02:38):
Ramage.
It is a crazy apocalyptic storyabout two men who are determined
to get their baby shower off theground, even though the end of
the world seems imminent.
So come back for that later thisweek.
Now onto today's guest.
I was really happy to have LucasSchafer and his debut novel, the
(02:58):
Slip On Today.
For readers of Jonathan Franzenand Nathan Hill comes a haymaker
of an American novel about amissing teenage boy cases of
fluid and mistaken identity, andthe transformative power of
boxing.
A little bit about Lucas Lucas'swork has appeared in one story,
the Baffler Slate and otherpublications.
(03:19):
He holds an MFA from the NewWriters Project at UT Austin And
lives with his family in Austin.
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
I'm thrilled to have LucasSchaefer here today for his
debut novel, the Slip.
(03:41):
You could tell that I, I markedthis thing all up.
I have to tell you, Lucas,whenever I do one of these
interviews, I usually try to, toread it, you know, well enough
in advance to sit and ponder andall of the things.
But for whatever reason, Ireally did not want this book to
end, and I kept taking my timethrough it.
And so I, I literally finishedthe last 40 pages last night,
(04:08):
and.
Oh my God, I was so blown awayand I almost, I almost reached
out to you last night but I waslike, you're gonna talk to him
in the morning, like, calm down.
I.
It is so, phenomenal.
You're the editor's pick, I haveit right here in Kirks reviews,
with starred you, you're beingcompared to Franzen and Roth and
(04:30):
Irving and Nathan Hill, and allof these are, are such, apt
comparisons.
So congratulations.
Not only does it just a, noteven debut.
It's just a phenomenal book, socongratulations.
Lucas Schaeffer (04:44):
Thank you so much.
That was a very niceintroduction.
Brett Benner (04:47):
so for our listeners Lucas, is the, the
proud owner of a baby boy.
He's about six months intofatherhood.
So how is it going for you guys?
Lucas Schaeffer (04:58):
Oh my God.
It is truly an adventure.
I know that, I know everyonesays you'll never be prepared,
but we truly we're not prepared.
But it's great.
You know, it's every day there'snew where we, we today was our
first day with a sippy cup withwater.
Oh wow.
Yes.
There wasn't any, any drinkingof the water.
But there is hammering the tablewith the cup and we've moved to
(05:20):
some solid food.
We're into the Turkey puree.
So we're, we're good.
We're, yeah.
Life is, life is good.
And, and father, well, maybe notfather land, but
Brett Benner (05:29):
Are you gonna be the, the kind of parents that,
do all the food yourself andpuree all the vegetables?
Or are you just going to be tojarred food?
Lucas Schaeffer (05:36):
We're already not those parents.
I, I think we aspire.
We aspire there.
The, in fact, downstairs there'sjust arrived a like black and
decker blender.
Because we had our blender died,you know, years ago and was
never, was never replaced.
And, so I think we, we willeventually, aspire to be making
(05:59):
our own baby food, but for nowwe're in a Gerber situation.
Who seems to be loving it?
Oh yeah, as far as I can tell.
Brett Benner (06:07):
Alright, so wait, backing up with you a second.
You grew up in Newton, mass?
Lucas Schaeffer (06:11):
I did.
Brett Benner (06:11):
Okay.
And were you an only child?
Lucas Schaeffer (06:14):
I was not.
I have a younger brother who's,a, a teacher in Massachusetts.
Brett Benner (06:18):
Okay.
And did you always wanna write?
Lucas Schaeffer (06:22):
I did, but I wasn't always writing.
I, I mean, I was aspired to, todo that.
And then I, uh, I moved toAustin in 2006 when I was 24,
and then I met my now husbandGreg in 2011.
Okay.
And when I met him, I was,teaching seventh grade and he
(06:45):
was at the Mitchner Center inthe Graduate Creative Writing
program at ut.
And you know, we dated for a, ayear or so, and I thought, well,
he's doing this.
I want to, I wanna do that.
He's having more fun than I'mhaving.
So then I, I started writingmore seriously and ultimately
applied to graduate school andwent to the new writers project
(07:07):
at ut, and the rest is, ishistory.
But I, I was really not right.
I'm, I'm now 42.
I was not writing, I would sayseriously until I was about 30.
Brett Benner (07:19):
And what brought you to Austin initially?
Lucas Schaeffer (07:22):
Kind of nothing.
I, Had graduated college andmoved to Brooklyn and was living
there for a couple years and itjust, it felt a little like, um,
you know, I love, I love NewYork, I love living New York,
but it felt a little bit like.
What I was supposed to do orsomething.
Mm-hmm.
Like, it, it just felt verylike, I'm from the northeast,
(07:42):
I'm living in the northeast,this will be life.
And I was just hungry to trysomething different.
And I had a professor fromcollege who had previously lived
in Austin, that's where he'd hadsort of his formative years, and
he said, you should give Austina try.
And I, I knew a couple peoplehere, but I really didn't know
anyone.
(08:02):
All that well, I had a couple offriends, one friend who as soon
as I moved here, immediatelywent to law school and moved
away.
So I, I basically didn't knowanyone initially and just made
this my my city.
Wow.
Brett Benner (08:15):
Wow.
That's really cool.
And I wanna get back to Austinitself in a little bit, but,
it's funny, the commondenominator for so many writers
that I've had on this show thatcomes up over and over and over
again, which I love because he'sone of my favorite writers, is
Alexander Chi.
Mm.
And he seems to have to havetouched so many of you.
(08:36):
In one way or another.
I then when I saw.
That, you know, he was helpfulto you as well.
I was like, wow, this guy islike, he's everywhere with
everyone and I love it.
Lucas Schaeffer (08:48):
He, yeah, I mean, he was very instrumental
in this book, in that when youread the first chapter of this
book, that was, something I, Istarted in his workshop in a
very different form and.
He was, he, he pushed me in amore novelistic direction.
Mm.
You know, I think when you'restarting graduate school, short
(09:11):
stories are kind of the currencybecause you're in workshop and
they're short enough to, youknow, be able to, to workshop
and et cetera, et cetera.
But I, I really am, am more ofa, a long form writer,
naturally, and I think he helpedpush me in that, in that
direction.
I.
That's awesome.
(09:31):
And it's just a great, greatteacher.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (09:33):
Yeah.
Um, okay.
So for our audience, do you havean elevator pitch Sure.
For the slip?
Lucas Schaeffer (09:41):
Sure.
So the slip is about a veryhapless teenager named Nathaniel
Rothstein, who is from Newton,Massachusetts.
Who gets into a fight at schooland is suspended, and as
punishment is sent to live inAustin, Texas with his uncle for
the summer of 1998, his motheris tired of dealing with him and
(10:03):
in Austin, his uncle sets him upat a job at a, a volunteer job
at a nursing home where he fallsunder the sway of a very
charismatic.
Immigrant from Haiti named DavidDeli, who is the activities
director there and is also aformer boxer and gets Nathaniel
involved in boxing and over thecourse of this very formative
(10:26):
summer.
Hapless miserable.
Nathaniel transforms, into amuch more confident young man,
and really takes to boxing.
And at the end of the summer, hedisappears, never to be seen or
heard from again.
And the novel follows a verywide cast of characters over
about 20 years as we figure outwhat, what happened that summer
(10:47):
and what happened to Nathaniel.
Brett Benner (10:50):
That was great And if you could have heard me
trying to explain this to myhusband over dinner last night.
Mm-hmm.
Because I was like, I hadgotten, of course, I told you I
got to the end and we went todinner afterwards and I was
sitting there and I, and I waslike steeped in the book and
steeped in those last fivepages.
And so I was like.
I, I'm sorry.
I'm gonna tell you about thisbook in broad strokes, and I
(11:13):
have to speak about this becauseyou are the only person that's
near me right now.
And I found myself going in andI was like, I'm getting more
confused as I'm going through.
It makes so much sense, but I'mso overwhelmed right now.
So that was so crystal clear.
First of all.
What was the inspiration forthis for you?
Where did it start?
Lucas Schaeffer (11:32):
So, I would say the inspiration for the book
started at a, a real boxing gym.
In Austin.
So when I first moved here in2006, I really didn't know
anyone.
Mm-hmm.
And I saw an advertisement for aclass at a boxing gym, and I was
already living in Texas, whichseemed very unlike anyone in my
(11:53):
family.
Not, not how I was, you know,not, not how people conceived of
my life.
Uh, perhaps.
So I thought, well, I'm alreadyin Texas.
I might as well do this otherthing that seems completely
uncharacteristic and.
Took this, this boxing class,and I ended up going to this gym
for about five years.
(12:14):
It's Lord Lord's gym in, in, inAustin for anyone familiar with,
with the city.
And one of the things thatreally struck me about the gym
was it was a place where therewas everybody, race, class,
gender.
Sexuality.
I mean, it was just such a widecross section of Austin and was
(12:37):
such a great introduction for meto Austin.
And, you know, the, my, mypersonal experience at the gym
was really, really positive.
And I, I worked out there forfive or six years and then ended
up moving a little bit southand, and stopped going mostly
for, for that reason.
But.
It did present a lot of dramaticpossibilities in terms of, you
(13:01):
know, so much of American lifeis segregated racially by class,
et cetera, and there are notthat many places where people
really crossover and meld andare all together.
And the gym was one of them.
So I thought, this is the placethat I can write about.
(13:22):
And as a writer, that's, that ismy interest.
Right?
How do we get along across theselines that typically divide us?
Is it possible to get along?
How do we all live together inthis country?
Which seems like a question,that's relevant right now and,
and is always relevant.
Living in America.
(13:43):
That was the impetus, juststarting with the gym and
characters from the gym.
And it's funny, you know, now ifyou read the book, there's
basically, there's very littlefrom the gym, the, the real gym
that has made it into the book.
But I think that's spirit of.
Worlds crossing, worldscolliding.
(14:04):
The, the tension that that cancreate and also the opportunity
that that can create, uh, issort of where I started
Brett Benner (14:12):
It's interesting because, when I was thinking
about the book last night, to meit feels like, because you have
all these characters and the gymis kind of the centerpiece that
everything in front of thefulcrum, which everything kind
of works out of, it feels almostlike an orchestra to me.
And each of these characters isa separate instrument in the
orchestra.
Yeah.
And you get these moments ofsomeone being highlighted you
(14:33):
this, this is the clarinet andthis is the violin, and this is
the piano.
Until they all kind of cometogether and you see the whole
piece.
And that's kind of how I viewedthis book, that you are kind of
the conductor who's pulling usthrough all of this with this
boxing ring in the center of allof it.
And it's so, so beautifullydone.
(14:55):
And in terms of moving back andforth through time and how
things are revealed throughother characters, it's just,
it's so exceptional.
But I was like.
God, I wonder if he is a boxingfan.
Like that was my first thought.
I thought, I wonder if he'searly into boxing.
Lucas Schaeffer (15:10):
It's funny because I loved the gym and I
loved a boxing workout, and Iloved, I.
The people, but I'm really not aboxing fan.
And, and watching, one of thethings I actually learned, I
really didn't like was seeingpeople I knew Box because it's
like, ugh, I don't, I don't knowif I wanna watch this.
I like those guys.
(15:31):
Don't hit each other, you know?
So.
It was not a natural, but Ithink in a way it was actually
the perfect subject for mebecause I was curious about it
and I also didn't know so muchabout it that I was gonna let
kind of the technical aspects ofboxing get in the way of the
story.
Yeah, I think this is a bookthat is certainly about.
(15:52):
Boxing to some extent, but youreally need no knowledge of
boxing or interest in boxing to,to get into the story.
And I don't know, had I beenmore of a aficionado or a more
of a fan of boxing, I, I don'tknow if I could have written it
in the way that I did.
Brett Benner (16:10):
Yeah.
It's so interesting because Ithought as I was going through
it too, uh, I work out at a verysmall gym here in Los Angeles,
but my trainer and I, we've saidfor years, I don't understand
why no one has made a sitcom outof a gym because exactly this.
There are so many differenttypes of characters who cross
and intersect, and the kind ofdrama that plays out in a
(16:32):
gymnasium or in small gyms.
And the interactions.
I was like, there's so muchrichness to pull upon here.
So
Lucas Schaeffer (16:39):
it, it's funny, when I first started going to
the gym, I mentioned earlier Iwas teaching and I taught
seventh grade at an all girlsschool.
And so it was, you know, my, my15 I.
12 and 13 year olds.
And it was so funny becausethere was so much more drama at
the gym than Yeah.
At school with these like middleschool girls.
(16:59):
I was like, how is this possiblethat there's like the love
affair, all just fraught, um,you know, fraught funny things
happening.
Brett Benner (17:09):
Yeah.
And probably throwing sometestosterone and some hormones
and you, you, you amp everythingup a little bit.
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Lucas Schaeffer (17:18):
Absolutely.
Brett Benner (17:20):
How long did it take you to write?
Lucas Schaeffer (17:25):
I've been saying 10 years, but I think it
was probably a little longer.
Wow.
Really?
I, I basically, I went tograduate school in, in 2013.
And started the project then I'dinitially conceived of a linked
story collection about differentcharacters at the gym and just
over the, over the years, andthis is one thing Alex Chi was
(17:48):
helpful with and other mentorswere helpful with as well.
Things got too intertwined.
Mm-hmm.
I was, you know, it was, I waslike.
Chafing against the structureI'd created for myself, and I
think when I allowed myself tojust explode the structure and
say, no, no, no.
This is a novel and everyone'sreally intimately linked, but
(18:10):
we're still gonna go in all ofthese different directions.
I think that was a bigbreakthrough for me because I
was trying to fit the story intothese sort of 20 or 25 page.
Short stories and it just didn'twork because I, I, I wanted
bigger and more You wantedunderstand and, and so I, I was
(18:30):
able to knock down some of thosewalls and just, and
Brett Benner (18:33):
Some elements of the story were put out as short
stories and other publications.
Lucas Schaeffer (18:37):
Yeah, so a lot of the characters in the book,
were created in a short storythat came out in the magazine,
one story, and that story isactually not in the, in the
book.
Mm-hmm.
But it, it is, it, it helped me,We create a lot of these
characters.
And then there are a fewchapters that have appeared
individually as short stories orexcerpts in a couple of
(18:59):
different, different magazines.
And the first chapter of thebook is Now in the Common, which
is a great magazine that'sdedicated to exploring place,
and the whole first chapter isavailable online
Brett Benner (19:10):
Did you start with Nathaniel and this was the
beginning of the book for you?
And if so, I also wondered, didyou know the arc when you
started?
I.
Lucas Schaeffer (19:20):
I did not start with Nathaniel.
I, I started with some of themore peripheral gym characters.
There's a character in this booknamed Carlos Ortega, who's sort
of this gym, just shit stirrer,if I can say that on your
podcast.
Yes.
He is this.
40-year-old X boxer who's justalways in everyone's business.
(19:41):
And he's, I think anyone who'sgone to a gym is probably
familiar with some characterlike Carla's.
And he was just really fun towrite and a voice that I quickly
understood and, and knew well.
Um, so he was one of the, thefirst characters.
And then, you know, a funnything about.
The book is, is when IReconceived of it, certain
(20:01):
characters who hadn't worked inshort story format really came
to life in the novel.
So one of the very firstattempts at a story I wrote was
with a character who in thebook, um, is calling himself X.
And in the short story x.
Is this young, teenage boy who'shaving a lot of questions about
(20:24):
his gender identity and is justin a very teenage moment when we
meet him.
And initially I had him comingto the gym in the, in the book,
he doesn't really, he's notassociated with, with the gym.
His entry into the story isthrough a, a different, avenue,
which I'll let readers.
Figure out for themselves.
(20:44):
Because one of the fun thingsabout this.
This book is, it is a little bitlike a puzzle.
You don't know exactly howeveryone connects initially.
And that was also true for me asa writer.
Like, I didn't know I had thischaracter of XI was like really
enjoyed sort of getting to knowhim, but I hadn't figured out
(21:07):
what to do with him in the shortstory form and then, then in the
novel form it, it made sense.
Brett Benner (21:12):
Wow.
That is so fascinating.
You know, the big overreachingtheme of this novel is identity.
Yeah.
In so many facets.
Yeah.
Whether it's through race orgender or, sexuality.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat
Lucas Schaeffer (21:31):
yeah.
I mean, as a writer, that'sdefinitely the theme that's of
the most interest to me, how youknow, people of differing
identities and multifacetedidentities get along or don't
with each other.
And I think the, the racialaspect was I.
just something I was thinkingabout a lot,, just as a person
(21:56):
in the, in the country, youknow, as a citizen and as a
human being as I was startingthis book.
And so I wanted to, to reallylean in into that.
And, you know, Nathaniel, Ithink it's safe to say, has some
problematic.
Views about race, but I reallywanted to explore those,, and do
(22:17):
that with some intention.
And so that's sort of how that,the, the, the, the race element
came about.
And then, you know, there's, I.
A lot of thinking aboutsexuality in the book as well.
I think some of that is justfrom being gay myself, but also,
just a, a general fascinationwith identity and all, it's,
(22:39):
it's different forms.
And so I slowly sort of builtand, and then once the one, the
theme kind of built on itself,so one example I'll give you is
there's a character in the bookwho's a fairly minor character
named Gloria Ob, who's an older,resident at the nursing home who
plays a, a small but verypivotal.
(22:59):
Role in the book and I couldn'tquite get her character right in
the early days.
And I realized, okay, we'redealing with this broad theme of
identity.
We've got this woman who in, inthe story is Italian American,
but initially when I was writingit, that was very peripheral.
(23:22):
Like that was just, you know,her name was Gloria Abruzzi She
was obviously.
Italian because her name wasGloria Abruzzi And that was
that.
And then as I went to rewriteand figure her out,, I really
started to think about, okay,well what if, you know, she was
Italian and her family theirheritage was very important to
them, but she, for whateverreason, didn't identify as much
(23:45):
as Italian.
Like, let's play with that alittle bit.
And so slowly I sort of figuredout her character.
And that aspect of her identityends up proving really, really
important to the plot and tojust understanding who, who she
is.
So once I kind of went down thisroad of, okay, I'm interested in
(24:06):
identity broadly, it, it kind ofhelped me build some of these
more minor characters intofully, you know, hopefully fully
formed people.
It was just a lens through whichI could kind of enter their, I.
Psyches and, and theirpersonalities.
Brett Benner (24:24):
Yeah.
And it's an interesting thingbecause every, almost every
character in this book is, is,is searching for something else
in regards to identity.
And it's just in a fascinatingand examination.
Speaking specifically of the, ofthe Nathan of it all, Nathaniel,
I'm so curious were you everwith everything about out there
about, cultural appropriationwere you ever nervous in writing
(24:46):
it about what you were tackling?
'cause it's big swings and whenI started at it, I will say I
was all of a sudden like, oh mygosh.
But it also makes complete sensefor the narrative of what this
is.
Lucas Schaeffer (25:00):
I think that was the key for me.
I mean, I think this questionof, because I'm obviously
throughout the book writing alot of different characters who
are not like me.
Nathan in some ways is like mein that he's from the town I'm
from.
And he is white and he's Jewish,but in a lot of other ways.
He's, he's not like me.
He's, he's straight, he's veryshy.
(25:21):
He had a miserable high schoolexperience.
I I had a fun time in highschool, et cetera, et cetera.
So, he's probably, you know, hedemographically he's a lot
closer to me than some of theseother characters.
I think because I started withthe themes and the questions
mm-hmm.
Brett Benner (25:36):
And
Lucas Schaeffer (25:36):
knew what I wanted to write about, that then
kind of led to creating thisvery diverse cast.
Yeah.
I didn't start and say, I wannabe the white guy who writes, you
know, about, black people orabout people of color.
Right.
Experience or whatever.
Just because you know, I can dothat and that's my right.
Like that, that was not howthis.
(25:58):
Transpired.
So I think the question, youknow, when this issue comes up
really isn't, who has the rightto write what, because we can
obviously all write whatever wewant, but like, why, why are you
right doing this?
Right?
And and for me,, the racialtension in the book is so much a
part of my interest in the storythat it wouldn't have.
(26:20):
Work had I not leaned into it.
And then the other thing wasonce I decided to go for it, I
really wanted to like do it andexplore it.
And that meant having Nathanielhave.
Views that made me cringe.
But were familiar from life,right?
Yeah.
It meant having him makedecisions that are, I think we
can agree not he, he doesn'talways make good decisions.
(26:43):
But then it, it also meant withthe character of David, who's
his mentor, who has lived inTexas for almost 30 years, is
originally from Haiti, and is,is black.
It also meant with, with David.
Going there with him too andallowing him to be flawed and
him to make that decisions.
And just thinking about who, whothese characters are and how
(27:06):
they're moving through the worldand staying grounded in that and
letting that dictate, whathappens in the book.
And that was sort of my guidingprinciple throughout, because I
think there's the danger of.
With Nathaniel kind of notgetting right, his particular
racial outlook, I guess youcould call it.
(27:26):
But then I, I also didn't wannado the thing.
I think sometimes when, and Idon't actually have anyone in
mind when I say this.
I, I just think this is ageneral issue, but I think
sometimes when white writers arewriting outside their race.
I, I'd say probably,particularly with black
characters, there's, there canbe a tendency to do the other
thing of like, we're gonna makethis person so unimpeachable
(27:50):
that Yeah.
I I will then not be criticized.
Right?
Or a hundred percent we'regonna, you know, whatev whatever
the thing is.
And it's like, well that's not aper, none of us are like that,
right?
Yeah.
We all make that decisions attimes.
We all do things that are.
Yeah, questionable.
Or that we later think, oh, whydid I say that?
Why did I do that?
(28:10):
Whatever.
So I just want to go there withall of the characters and you
know, that's part of why thebook took so long, because it
was really thinking through, whothese characters were both as
individuals, and then also howtheir varied identities affect.
How they're perceived by, byother people.
Nathaniel is not every Jewishkid from Newton.
(28:32):
He's Nathaniel.
But at the same time, you know,we're all living in the same.
World and our skin color and oursexuality and how much money we
have.
All of those things affect howwe're perceived sometimes how we
perceive ourselves.
Brett Benner (28:45):
It's interesting 'cause as you're sitting here
talking about a lot of this, andthere is so much about race and
class.
Wrapped up in this identity.
And I think that the book doesforce you to start to ask
questions about your ownidentity and what we all as
people, the kind of outside facewe put on and the inside face
and, and, and who we are.
(29:07):
The privacy behind our closeddoors versus what we are outside
in the world.
Lucas Schaeffer (29:13):
Yeah, and I would, I'd also say with
Nathaniel specifically, I meanone of, one of the things I was
thinking about is I think we allhave an understanding of what.
People who are sort of overtlyracist are like, and those
people to me are not thatinteresting.
But Nathaniel is operating froma place, I mean, he really makes
(29:36):
some problematic decisions, buthe's also operating from this
place of really admiring Davidand, and loving David.
I mean, they're, they're,they're really friends by the
end of their time together.
Brett Benner (29:50):
And there's a fascination with David and, and
who he represents to Nathanieland, and, and aspirational as
well, I think.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Because, because of, of, of, ofwhat he thinks, well, I can be
this as well.
Um, that doesn't just includerace, but certainly that drives
a lot of it.
(30:11):
Um.
I do wanna talk about the excharacter for a minute.
'cause I thought Sure.
That he, he was so fascinating,especially because we are
talking about a narrative thatthat is taking place.
I believe this starts in 1998.
Am I getting that correct?
Yeah.
Lucas Schaeffer (30:26):
1998.
Brett Benner (30:27):
Right.
So.
All of these conversations aboutgender certainly and gender
identity.
And you refer to that in thebook at one point about these
conversations were really notever being had.
And the relevancy with what'shappening currently in our, in
our country, with trans peopleespecially.
But, How did he come about?
I, I, I just, I found him andhis journey in terms of both
(30:51):
gender and sexuality I, I thinkis so interesting.
Lucas Schaeffer (30:54):
Yeah.
So I'd say a couple things withthat.
I mean, one, one thing I domention in the, in the book that
I think is true is I think in1998 at, at the very least, he
was not privy to thoseconversations.
Yeah.
You know, I, I do think some ofthat was already happening
within, um.
Within certain circles, butthose were not circles that this
(31:16):
character not, but it's
Brett Benner (31:17):
certainly not a national circle, you know?
No, not a national
Lucas Schaeffer (31:20):
conversation.
Right.
And he, you know, I could bewrong about this because it's
now been.
So long and I start to forgethow everything emerged.
But I, I think what happenedwith X is there's another
character in the book, Belinda,who's ex's mother, who is who I
started with.
Wow.
Okay.
And Belinda is this formerPlayboy, playmate who is now
(31:47):
cutting hair and sort ofstruggling to make ends meet
and, So I created her and shewas a very recognizable Austin
character to me.
I think if you've lived inAustin, you have probably met
someone who is Belinda like atsome point.
And, um, I knew I wanted her tohave a, a family.
(32:07):
And so.
X was, was her child.
And you know, I think what'sfascinating about Belinda is
she's this person who hasreally, um.
Had some things happen to her asa woman.
And because she was a woman thathave affected her life and and
constrained her in some ways.
And so having her have this sonwho is exploring gender identity
(32:29):
and doesn't feel quite right,you know, as, as a boy or isn't
quite sure what's going on, withhis gender, that was really
dramatically interestingbecause.
Belinda has all of these.
I mean, she is homophobic andtransphobic to use our sort of
current, way of thinking aboutthis.
(32:49):
But she's also operating in herown way from a place of love
because she's like, I have beenthrough this and don't want
this.
For you.
Yeah, I know.
I love this
Brett Benner (33:00):
part, part of that relationship tension.
Yeah.
I love this part of therelationship because she's a
woman who know, like just beinga Playboy playmate, she knows
what she has, so to speak.
Yeah.
She knows what her appeal is,but also recognizes kind of the,
the patriarchy and her place init, but I was also fighting
against it.
Frankly, she always wanted a sonbecause she didn't want Right.
(33:22):
A daughter to have to go throughwhat she understands and
recognizes.
Lucas Schaeffer (33:24):
Right.
And the, when we were talkingabout these started as short
stories.
So the initial short story thatI wrote that is not in the book
and nothing like this happens inthe book is it's Belinda taking
X to the boxing gym and saying,if you're gonna explore in this
way, you need to learn how to.
Fight back and Wow.
And is just not, that's when youread the book, you'll see that
(33:47):
that is now, that feels likedefinitely not what happened.
Brett Benner (33:49):
Yeah.
And now that feels likesomeone's fan fiction.
Lucas Schaeffer (33:53):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, the problem withdoing this in sort of a short
story format is you can onlyhave so many stories where
someone goes to the gym for thefirst time.
Yeah, yeah.
For the first time.
Right.
You're not gonna have 20 storiesof of, of a person going to
Terry Tucker's box for the firsttime.
It's not a book.
I think most people wanna.
I wanna engage with.
Right.
Brett Benner (34:11):
So talk about Austin for a second, because,
um, sure.
It, it is in itself.
It, uh, a character in this bookin a lot of ways.
And for the, uninformed, firstof all, I had no idea that
Austin was such a literary hubto begin with.
I really knew there was literaryfestivals, but it is, it is
quite a, a place for writersand, and, and readers.
Lucas Schaeffer (34:32):
Yeah, I mean, I think coming from the northeast,
moving to Austin, Austin ishistorically a little more
casual than what you would findin the Northeast.
So I, I, I remember first movingthere very early on in my time
in Austin, I had a friend whoran a nonprofit and bill Clinton
agreed to do a charity event forher nonprofit.
(34:53):
And it was during the day and itwas outside, but I wore.
A, a dark suit because I waslike, this is the president of
the United States and.
People thought I was in theSecret Service because there
were, people were wearingshorts, there was like Hawaiian
shirts.
I was like, oh my God, this isthe best place.
Like I'm, I'm staying here.
But I think for me, I mean, Ithink what was so special about
(35:14):
my early years at.
The, the real gym in Austin was,I feel like I just got to meet
such a broad swath of the city.
You know, I think we havecertain ideas about Austin,
whether it's like the Dazed andConfused Austin or now like the
tech bro Austin, and like all ofthese are accurate, but they're
(35:37):
not the whole story.
And I just feel like I.
Really got to have this, thisfriend group and this social
circle that was, much more wideand and varied throughout the
city than I would've hadotherwise.
And so that definitely inspireda lot about this book.
And I love.
Books like White Teeth and NW byZadie Smith.
(35:59):
I love Edward P.
Jones, Jennifer Egan, thesewriters who really take you
through an entire community, Andinto these little nooks and
crannies of the community.
And I really wanted to try myhand at doing that for Austin,
um, which is a city.
There were great books aboutAustin, but I wanted to kind of
put my own, my own spin on it.
(36:20):
And the other thing, and this istrue about both Austin, and it's
true, there's a little bit ofthe book said in in Newton, in,
in My Hometown, a lot of thingshappen in this book that are
pretty wild, right?
Yeah.
And I, I really wanted to groundit in, real places because.
I, I just, I, I wanted thatfeeling of this is really
(36:43):
happening.
And even if wild things happen,it makes sense, and of course
they're happening, right?
Like this, it, it's not asatire, it's not fantastical.
It, it really is supposed to bekind of read as you know.
Realist sounds a little bitridiculous, but it's literal.
It's really, yeah, yeah.
Right.
What, what's happening on thepages?
What's happening?
(37:04):
And so part of that for me, justmentally away, I did that, was
including a lot of real places.
So like the restaurants, I,because I went through a phase
of like, okay, well I go toMagnolia Cafe, but we can't call
it Magnolia Cafe.
What about Sunflower Cafe?
And it was like, I'm not doingthis for.
This entire city that I knowpretty well.
(37:25):
So we're just gonna haveMagnolia Cafe, be Magnolia Cafe
and the Sculpture Garden is thatAnd Barton Springs Is Barton
Springs, yeah.
And you know, the, the highschool Nathaniel goes to is
Newton South High School, whichis where I went to high school.
And I, I just felt like this wasa way for me to keep, keep me as
a writer and also the reader,you know, readers who are
familiar with those placesgrounded in them.
Brett Benner (37:47):
No, I loved it.
You also do a really interestingthing.
And of course again, it was akind of, window into some of the
people of this world.
Later in the book, Nathaniel'sUncle.
Is in a class with a group ofwomen.
Yes.
And, and it kind of takes onthis, omniscient, viewpoint as
(38:07):
we go with these women and theirperception of what's happening.
And I thought that was soingenious, but, but talk about
that for a second.
What led you to put that inthere?
Lucas Schaeffer (38:17):
Yeah.
So the women are in a Jewishwomen's book club and they
decide to enroll in.
Something called Citizen PoliceAcademy, which I think is no
longer called that, but is areal thing that's offered.
It does exist.
Oh, wow.
It exists all over.
There's pro, there may be one inLA for all I know.
I mean, they're, they're in alot of different cities, but I
(38:38):
enrolled in Citizen PoliceAcademy to see Wow.
To see what it was all about.
So, so for listeners who'venever heard of this, this is in
Austin.
It's a 14 or 15 week class.
You go to Austin Policeheadquarters for four hours each
week and you get thesepresentations from different,
um, you know, the homicidesdetective comes and talk to the,
(39:01):
talks, to the gang suppression,the, you know, nuisance
abatement society, you know,group, the people who deal with
hoarders and it's.
It's billed as sort ofintroducing you, letting
citizens understand how thepolice department works.
There's obviously, a, apropaganda element there.
They, this is their chance tokind of put out their, pr, which
they're fairly open about.
(39:22):
And then you also go on a ridealong with the police officer.
Which, I did a couple of thosebecause this appears in the
book, you follow a policeofficer for, for quite a while
in the book.
So I did two overnight shiftswith, with officers.
This was about 10 years ago.
And, because I was, writingabout, the issues in this book,
there's race, there's crime, youknow, really sort of, I wanted
(39:44):
to see what was going on.
Brett Benner (39:48):
This is your Real Life Cops episode.
Lucas Schaeffer (39:50):
Well, I'd heard about this class and I was like,
this is so bizarre.
Like, what is this?
But it struck me as, you know,various characters are trying to
figure out the mystery of whathappened to Nathaniel.
It struck me, the class just.
Had some characters in it andwas just, it, it's, it's sort of
just a weird idea.
(40:11):
and was just unusual.
So I started playing around withthat.
And then, the why is it narratedthat one chapter from the point
of view of three women in aJewish women's book club?
I will maybe leave that forreaders to interpret on their
own, but I will say, I mean, I.
One of the ways I think that Iwrote this book was coming in
(40:31):
kind of sideways at some of thedifferent plot points and, and
plot issues.
So, you know, Bob Alexander, whois Nathaniel's uncle, who ends
up investigating what had sortof playing detective himself.
You know, I think he would'vebeen the obvious narrator for
that chapter.
But it somehow.
Just with my own way of writingand thinking.
(40:54):
It just didn't quite work.
It was too on the nose.
There was something, you know,not quite happening.
So I thought, well, who could heenlist,, sort of to help him
and, and these women kind ofemerged.
Brett Benner (41:05):
I.
Oh my God, it's so great.
It's almost like a Greek chorusof of, of, yeah.
Of women.
It's, it's, it's really Thankyou.
It's great.
I just have to say on a sidenote, and this of course becomes
a plot point, and I don't wannago into it But, I did also
notice this on your Instagram isyour fascination with clowns.
And so I was like, wow, hereally, are you a pro clown
(41:26):
person?
Generally?
Are you someone who's scared ofclowns?
Lucas Schaeffer (41:29):
Okay, so Austin, the Alamo Drafthouse,
whenever the movie IT two cameout, like it number, the sequel
ticket hit.
Yeah.
They had a clown's onlyscreening of it too, where you,
to be admitted to the screening,you had to go dressed as a
clown.
And I had a friend who reallywanted to do this and who was
also very good with makeup andso got a bunch of us together
(41:52):
and really went for it.
Like the wigs, the bow ties, theeverything.
And I think that I do have afascination with clowns but I do
think the photographic record ofthis one event has sort of.
On social media made it seemperhaps like I have more, like
every image of me dressed as aclown is from the it too
screening in 2019 or wheneverthat movie came out.
(42:14):
Just feel like it was one
Brett Benner (42:15):
time people, it was one time.
One, it was one time.
Lucas Schaeffer (42:18):
But I do find them, you know, I, I find them
sort of interesting sort ofmalicious characters.
Brett Benner (42:25):
It's what what's done in the book is so, um,
again, you talked about thingsthat, you know, literally are
happening, And this for me, thisvery akin to something that John
Irving would think of.
So, um, yeah, I, I, I kind oflove that.
I wanna, I wanna kind of closeout with this quote from the
book, which I think.
Spoke to me.
(42:46):
It's towards the end, but itdoesn't give anything away, but
it kind of speaks to me aboutthe book as a whole.
Anyway, I, I'm not even gonnasay who this is, but I'll just
say, I'll read the quote peopledon't go to boxing gyms to stay
the same.
We're not static.
The world is not static.
Stories that start as one thingsometimes become another.
And I thought that was such agreat encapsulation of the book
(43:08):
as a whole, and who all thesepeople and the journeys they go
through.
So
Lucas Schaeffer (43:12):
thank you.
Yeah,
Brett Benner (43:13):
I, yeah, absolutely.
This has been so great.
I can, I could talk to youforever and, um, continue and
unpack this and I'm, so excitedfor people to discover,, the
mystery of Nathaniel, but alsothis treasure trove of such
amazing characters.
Thank you.
So please go by the slip.
(43:34):
Woo.
Sorry, go by this.
No, no, Buy independent if youcan, but I definitely get it.
It's truly, dare I say aknockout.
That's so cheesy of me.
Thank you.
But thank you so much for beinghere, Lucas.
This is, this is such apleasure.
Lucas Schaeffer (43:47):
Thank you for having me.
Brett Benner (43:48):
Thank you again Lucas, and if you've liked what
you heard today and are enjoyingthese episodes, please consider
liking and subscribing on yourpodcast platform of choice.
Also, what would be reallyhelpful is if you could leave a
review, that would be amazing.
And once again, I will be backlater this week with author
Jonathan Parks Ramage to discusshis new book.
(44:09):
It is not the end of the world.
So until then, have a greatweek.
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