Nicola Dinan, Disappoint Me

In this episode Brett sits down with Nicola Dinan to talk about her sophomore book, "Disappoint Me". They discuss identity and assimilation, what good fiction can do, food writing, and a serendipitous episode of "The White Lotus".

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https://www.instagram.com/nicoladinan/

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Episode Transcript

Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey, it's Brett Benner, and welcome or Welcome

(00:01):
back to another episode ofBehind the Stack.
Where we're almost into June.
We're almost halfway throughthis year is flying by.
I, I, I can't even believe it.
I hope, uh, for those of you whoare in the States, you all had a
nice Memorial Day weekend.
The books are still coming outfast and furious, and it seems

(00:22):
more and more every week as weget into the summer.
I just wanna say regarding thissummer, please stick around if
you're enjoying this podcastbecause I have a packed June
coming up with.
Nearly every week I have twoauthors, so it's uh, double
featured June on Behind theStack.
A couple of books that arecoming out today.

(00:43):
Two in particular I wanted tomention.
The first is the South by Tash.
Aw, this is the first of what isexpected to be a quartet of
books about a family.
And, I'm really excited to readthis one.
The other is for all my StephenKing fans, of which I am one,
his new book Never Flinch,featuring, fan favorite

(01:05):
character, Holly Gibney.
So check those out.
Alright, now onto today'sauthor, I am.
Really was so thrilled to sitdown with Nicola Dinan for her
new book Disappoint Me.
I have been such a fan ofNicola's since her debut
bellies, and have followed her.

(01:27):
And so when this book came out,I was really desperate to sit
down and talk with her.
And, uh, she is just delightful.
So a little bit about Nicola.
her debut bellies won the PolariFirst book prize, was
shortlisted for the diverse bookawards and was a finalist for a
Lambda literary award and waslong listed for the Gordon by

(01:47):
Prize and Brooklyn PublicLibrary Book Prize.
She grew up in Hong Kong andKuala Lumpur, and currently
lives in London.
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
I had started to say I am just,I, I'm so grateful to be sitting

(02:09):
here with you because there arecertain books that you read.
I've talked about this before,that I feel like wherever you
are, whatever you're doing atthat time, somehow they, they
stick in your head and theyresonate for whatever reason.
And so it kind of steers thelocation of where you are when
you read it.
That happened with me with yourfirst book Bellies and I, it was

(02:29):
in Ohio.
I had been taking my son tocollege and I was alone, and I
don't even know how I, I thinkthe audio book had been sent to
me.
And so I thought, well, I'mgonna try this.
And I was so captivated and I, Iwas so moved and.
I, I felt like I have to telleverybody about this book, and
I, I just, it was such anincredible and an insured debut

(02:53):
that I couldn't, I couldn'tbelieve this was the first book
and thank you.
And I really was just like, atthe time I was doing the Gaze
Reading podcast and, and it wasalmost like too late, the timing
of it, but I, so I was watchingyou and watching, you know, this
book kind of explode and I waslike, I, I.
I wanted to talk to you sobadly, and so when they said

(03:16):
your next book was coming out, Iwas just so, so, so excited.
And I was like, I can't, Ican't, I have to sit down with
her.
I have to meet her just because,I don't know.
I don't always have thatreaction.
And I'm so thrilled also that tosay like, this is as good, if
not better than bellies and it.
Again, there's no sophomoreslump.
It's just another fantastic andsmart and insightful book.

(03:41):
You know, I said about bellies,it kind of hit into the
zeitgeist of what it is rightnow to be young and that whole
world.
I.
And I think you captured itagain with this, and you are one
of those writers to me who is,dare I say, almost ahead of
their time because you arecapturing these moments and

(04:02):
these feelings and thesecharacters that I think are so
necessary and fresh and needed.
So anyway, I I, I'm gonna stopgushing now, but just to say
congratulations.
I'm thrilled.
I'm thrilled.
I'm thrilled you're here.

Nicola Dinan (04:13):
Well, thank you so much.
That was all incrediblyflattering.
So always a nice way to start aconversation.
Um, but, you know, I'm so happythat you found bellies to begin
with.
I think, uh, bellies are hadwhat maybe I would describe as a
quieter release in the us um,maybe in particular compared to

(04:34):
the uk.
And so I'm always really happywhen I see American readers, um,
who've managed to find it orpick it up at the bookshop.

Brett Benner (04:43):
Yeah, I mean, and if I'm being blunt, like I hated
the American cover because I, Ifelt like the cover, and I
understand this is probably achallenge.
It wasn't representative of whatthe, the book really was, and it
painted it to me as some kindof, you know, Romcom.
I just think it didn't capturethe essence of the book, and I,

(05:05):
so I thought even the marketingof it, I thought this is
incorrect.
Like I wouldn't have necessarilythought of it based on this kind
of, you know, cutesy, primarycolored book.
So it, that was another reasonfor me.
I mean, it was like, I, I had itas one of my top 10 books of the
year and I, I pushed and willcontinue to push it just because
I think it's so good.
And.

Nicola Dinan (05:23):
Thank

Brett Benner (05:24):
you much like this.
So, so before we dive into thenew book, I just, I had some
like curious questions about youjust personally.
So you grew up in Hong Kong andKuala Lumpur?
I did.
And did you always want to be awriter or is this something that
can kind of came later for you?

Nicola Dinan (05:39):
I always enjoyed writing.
I think, uh, when I.
Think about, uh, my sort of teenyears and early twenties, I was
sort of like a serial quitter.
Um, or rather, actually, no,let's phrase that in a more
positive light.
I, I, I tried a lot of thingsthat weren't quite right for me.
You know, I, I moved to the UKwhen I was 18, my dad's family

(06:03):
of British, uh, and I moved foruniversity and I studied science
of all things.
And then very quickly realizedthat that wasn't for me
particularly.
Sure, science and theory,science and practice.
Like, you know, being in the laband having to put things into
pipe pets.
I'm terrible with my hands.

(06:23):
I'm not a careful person.
Very physically clumsy.
And so I realized I can't dothis.
And so.
I started to look towards thehumanities and ended up, you
know, specializing in thehistory and philosophy of
science.
And then I graduated anddecided, okay, I'll be a lawyer.
And I did a sort of a.
Conversion law degree and thentrained as a lawyer and worked

(06:44):
at a corporate law firm for afew years, and then also during
that time had this sort of senseof dread of just knowing that
the life I'd chosen and put it anumber of years into was just
not for me at all.
But around that time, I wasreally thinking about what have
I always enjoyed doing?

(07:05):
And ever since I was a teenager,I've been writing short stories
and.
I have a best friend fromMalaysia called Aisha and.
All throughout our teenage yearsand also our twenties, we were
sending each other bits ofcreative writing.
And I think I, despite thatbeing the only thing I've
consistently loved doing, itnever really struck me that I

(07:27):
could be a writer until I gotolder.
Um, and in my mid twenties andhad a bit more of a sense of the
possibilities that life actuallyhas outside of the narrow set of
things which I had prescribedfor myself and.
I think when I was younger and,you know, for a lot of my late

(07:47):
twen, uh, early twenties, I fellinto the trap that a lot of
people do, which is I fell inlove with the idea of.
Doing things.
So, you know, I fell in lovewith like, oh, isn't it cool to
like be a scientist?
And, oh, maybe it's really, Ilove the idea of myself as a
lawyer.
Um, and I think I failed to paya lot of attention to the verb,

(08:07):
you know, the, the sciencething, the lawyering.
But, you know, the verb I thinkI've always been able to be on
board with is writing.
And so when I started writingbellies.
I gave myself the permission tocall myself a writer.
So this was when I was 26, aboutfive years ago, and from then it

(08:28):
became so clear to me that thisis what I wanted to do.
And the moment I knew for sureand the moment I quit my job as
a lawyer was when I'd finished.
What might have been the firstor second draft of bellies and I
asked myself, what am I gonna doif this novel doesn't work out?
And the answer came to me in asecond, which was, I'll write

(08:48):
another book and wow that.
That was the moment where I waslike, okay, this is something I
have to take a leap of faithwith and give myself this.
Space to fully explore.
And so I'd had some savings.
I quit my job and I dedicatedsix months intensely to editing
bellies during which time Ifound an agent and we sent it

(09:09):
out to publishers, and then Ihad a book deal and I knew,
okay, well this career can sortof be real now.

Brett Benner (09:16):
Wow.
And but the early drafts ofeverything, there was no, you
were doing this all on your own.
Correct.
There was nobody looking overyour shoulder.
There was no one revising foryou.
Correct.

Nicola Dinan (09:26):
Well, I was really lucky.
I.
Firstly, yes, you're right.
Like ultimately no one does thewriting, but you.
But I actually had joined awriting workshop and so what was
amazing was that I was forced ina peer group to share my work
from a very early stage of thenovel.
I was probably halfway throughmy first draft when I, uh,

(09:47):
joined this course with 15 otherwriters, a couple of whom I'm
still really close to, and itmeant that I got used to the
idea of exposure quite quickly.
I.
And, began that tricky processof letting go of perfectionism,
which is a necessary part ofreceiving criticism and also and
sharing your work with otherpeople.

(10:08):
And so, yeah, it was alone andthen it wasn't.
I think, you know, writing issomething which is inevitably
solitary, you know, that's kindof why I do it.
I love, I love.
Not having to, um, not having toengage with much else than the
work I'm doing compared to sortof being in an office
environment where everyone seemsto be asking me for things that
I don't actually want to do.

(10:29):
Um, but there's somethingwonderful, wonderfully solitary
about being a writer.
But there's also, you know, atthe most critical points in your
writing, you do have to engagewith other people.
And I learned that lesson quiteearly on.

Brett Benner (10:41):
And how was it for you having gone through that
experience, kind of letting go,you've created this piece of art
and then you have to put it outthere.
Mm-hmm.
And then the experience becomesbigger than you, right?
Because it's a sharedexperience.
Are you someone who could goback and look at something, or
is it, you know, I always likenit to actors who say, I never
wanna watch myself on screen.
I never wanna see thatperformance.

(11:02):
Do you feel that?
Or do you feel like, you know,once it's out, it's out and onto
the next?

Nicola Dinan (11:07):
I mean, I don't think I even wait for the first
book to be out to move next tothe next thing, which I love.
I feel like I'm sort of, I'm atthe stage of my life.
I'm 31 and I'm feeling like I'min the time of my life in which
I can produce a lot of workbecause mm-hmm.
Um, I'm sort of living withoutthe constraints that a lot I

(11:27):
might have sort of later on inmy life.
And so I'm sort of.
I at the moment, I feel like Ihave three books on the go.
You know, we're having thisconversation about book two.
I've written my third book,which is, uh, currently with my
editor.
I'm waiting for comments, andthen in the meantime I'm writing
book four.
And so there's a real sense of,okay, I'm moving on to the next

(11:48):
thing, faith, because, you know,girl's gotta eat.
Um, so, you know, I have to, Ihave to write these books, but
two, because I love it, andthere's a sense of, okay, what,
what, what frees me?
From.
Sort of the anxiety that thisbook isn't going to perform in
the way that I hope.
What frees me from that terrorof things not going quite right,

(12:11):
and I find that the solution tothat is always reminding myself
that there are more words in thewell.
I can always return to it.
And write something new.
And the possibility here, thepossibilities are sort of
endless in terms of what I cancreate.
And I think we see a lot of thatjourney in Max and disappoint
me.
You know, we start the book andwe meet her.

(12:32):
She sort of would describeherself as a failed poet,
although of course the book sortof challenges, uh, what.
Her notions of what failuremeans.
Mm-hmm.
And she's really struggling toreconnect to creativity.
Having published a book ofpoetry, which is poorly received
critically, and feeling as ifthis sort of venture in which

(12:53):
she took a lot of risks toachieve was sort of f nil.
And I think in waiting forbellies to be published, I was
going through similar feelingsof anxiety of.
Not quite knowing how I wouldmove on again, you know, I said
the moment I quit my job waswhen I knew I would write
another book, but that was stillso far away from publication.
So when publication actuallycame, I started to feel that

(13:16):
terror and I was like, will Iactually be able to carry on
writing if this doesn't workout?
And I did learn that I.
You know that the best way tosort of cure that was to really
reengage with the verb, like Isaid, and you know, the last
question that you asked, I thinkthe best thing for me is always
to remove myself from the ideaof something.

(13:38):
The idea of being successfulauthor and connect with the fact
that I actually do just quitelike writing.

Brett Benner (13:45):
I saw you were talking in another interview,
and so I, I had to ask you this,where you said, you know, you're
talking about the book cliche ofthe, of, of the first book you
write is the book you have towrite and, and the second is the
book you wanna write.
And so at the time you had said,you know, bellies was really
that book you had to write.
And so do you think it'sfollowed suit?
Was, was, uh, disappoint Me andthe book you wanted to write?

Nicola Dinan (14:03):
So funny.
Whenever someone is like, oh,I've read, someone interviewing
me refers to another interview,I just, I'm flushed with a wave
of dread.
'cause I'm like, what did I say?
Are you, is it, is it the moment

Brett Benner (14:14):
before, like you said this, and I'm gonna tell
you what you said.
Yeah.

Nicola Dinan (14:17):
But even sometimes, you know, in, in the
heat of the moment of theinterview, uh, sometimes you
just say things kind ofspontaneously of that you look
back and you're like, maybe do Ieven think that?
Um, but I think, uh, you know,I.
Disappoint me felt.
I don't necessarily think that.
I didn't want to write bellies,you know, I, yeah.

(14:38):
I felt like I've raised it witha real sense of urgency, and I
think that's reflected in almostthe tone of the book.
It's filled with this, thesecharacters in their early
twenties who are sort of, um,approaching life, uh, life with
sort of all these extremeemotions.
Like they're laughing, they'recrying, they're experiencing
almost like their fullcompliment of human emotions for

(14:59):
their first time in their livesas they sort of traverse those
years of their early twenties.
And I.
That's sort of, you know, when Ithink of the word had, I think
that's where the urgency comesfrom.
Not so much that I, I felt likeit's a book I had to get out of
me, although in some senses Idid.
But I think the book itself isquite urgent.
Or rather the book reflects thaturgency in which I, which I
wrote it, I think naturally.

(15:21):
With the second book, I wasn'tin a situation that I was trying
to get out of.
And what I mean by that is whenI wrote Bellies, part of that
urgency and feeling of had towas born out of the fact that I
was working a job I hated and Iwanted to not do a job I hated
and find a career.
I.
That I found really meaningfuland when I started writing
Disappoint me, I had more space.

(15:43):
I had a bit more of a sense ofwhere my future would go.
And so I think that meant that Iwas also a bit more con
contemplative in mm-hmm.
Writing it.
And I think that's alsoreflected in the tone of the
novel as well.
And I think that sort of alsoreflects the time of life that
we find the characters anddisappoint me.
It's interesting because bellieswas very much.

(16:06):
A retrospective exercise.
How do I make sense of my earlytwenties as someone in my mid
twenties?
Disappoint me was sort of theopposite.
How might I see my lifetransform in the next few years
as I approach my phase?
And so there's sort of adeflated ness that you find in
the characters at the start ofdisappoint me, where they're

(16:26):
sort of just a bit jaded and Ithink you can imagine.
The characters in bellies sortof feeling that way once they
reach their thirties, eventhough the novels aren't, even
though the novels aren't sort ofconnected, I always describe
them as sort of spiritual sequelor rather, I describe,
disappoint me as a spiritualsequel to bellies.
What is this next stage of lifeholding for them?

(16:48):
And that is a stage of life,which is sort of.
Uh, a a period of life where youare really, where you're not
motivated by had tos and senseof urgency.
You are actually kind of, well,in some sense you are, but you
are also really questioning whatit is or what it is that you
want in terms of the life youwant to build.
Um.
Not sort of the chaos of beingin your early twenties.

(17:10):
You are outta that and you, uh,and when you're outta that,
you're sort of just left withyourself.
And there's a question of wheredoes my life go?
How do I want to conform to theexpectations that are placed on
me as a woman?
Um, and at particularly a transwoman navigating a
heteronormative world.
Um, these sort of biggerquestions that are less to do
with identity and how, and withmore to do with how one chooses

(17:36):
to live.

Brett Benner (17:36):
Yeah.
And I'm so glad you said thatbecause I, I, I, I had, I had
said right when I was puttingnotes together, this feels to
me, like you said, it's not asequel in any way, but it feels
almost as if in some person'sjourney where they would be at
this point in their life withthe launch off being bellies.
And then here we are, say fiveyears later.

(17:58):
And existing.
Um, so this is a perfect time, Ithink to like, if, if, if you
wouldn't mind, if you have, doyou have an elevator pitch?
Um, for disappoint me?

Nicola Dinan (18:07):
Yeah, I do.
Well, okay.
Well, how many words is anelevator pitch?
Is my or what?
See, well, you can,

Brett Benner (18:13):
I, I, but I always said you can, we can be in the
tall building or it could be abrown house.
Mm-hmm.
A townhouse.
Do you know what I mean?
It's really up to you.
I'm not gonna be like, let's gopretty

Nicola Dinan (18:22):
tall.

Brett Benner (18:23):
Okay.
Yeah.
Take it.

Nicola Dinan (18:25):
So disappoint me, follows a trans woman named Max.
She's 30 and she falls down thestairs at a New Year's Eve
party.
Wakes up in hospital and herfirst thought is, I'm gonna.
Find a boyfriend, you know, isthis the death of feminism?
And she enters into a veryconvenient, heteronormative
partnership with a BritishChinese man called Vincent, and

(18:48):
their relationship is propelledinto greater seriousness by a
number of health issues.
Surrounding them.
But the novel is also told fromVincent's perspective and not in
the present, but his 2012 gapyear in Thailand, where where he
travels around with his bestfriend Fred Am meets a gorgeous
traveler named Alex, and throughthese two timelines we see a.

(19:10):
Relationships in one timeechoing into the future and
contemplate what it means toreconcile with our past selves
and the ugliest parts of ourhistories.

Brett Benner (19:20):
Excellent.
And we've arrived.

Nicola Dinan (19:22):
And we've arrived on the hundred and 50th floor.

Brett Benner (19:25):
No, it really wasn't that long at all.
It was.
So what was the, it was there,one thing was that was the
initial inspiration for you thatkeyed off this idea.

Nicola Dinan (19:32):
So it was definitely born out of, you
know.
I was 27 when I started writingDisappoint Me, and I was looking
around me and sensing that therewas a shift in the air.
Uh, people were, I.
Talking about relationships withgreater gravity.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, heterosexual people werereferring to their boyfriends

(19:53):
and girlfriends as theirpartners talking about the
future.
One year away became talkingabout the future.
Five years away, some people Iknow were even falling pregnant,
and there was a real sense atwhich life was moving ahead.
And I, and so many of the womenaround me were struck with a
feeling of how, um, are we goingto be at the party for too long?

(20:17):
You know, are the lights goingto come on at 6:00 AM and we're
going to look around and noone's there.
And were there, ratty hairsweaty, lost our keys.
No way to get home.
So that was, you know, that waswhere I started writing the
book.
And you know, I write from, Iwrite from the perspective of a
trans woman, both from my ownperspective in that, of Max's in

(20:38):
the novel.
But it was a feeling of that Iwas really observing in all of
the women around me, cec, alltrans, and the anxieties of how
do I fit into the expectationsthat are being placed on me as I
move into the next stage.
Of life and you know, there wasalmost a feeling of having spent
argie as liberated women chasingwhat we wanted, building our

(21:01):
careers, and suddenly when as weapproached 30, the tone changed
and it was much more, okay, welllike, are you dating anyone?
Or you know.
Is it serious?
Like, do you think you'll getmarried?
And that's quite terrifying.
And suddenly all of these thingsthat I spent my twenties
building up felt less importantin the context of the security
of a romantic relationship.

(21:21):
And so that was where it reallystarted, and I think that's why
the book is sort of, I think,pitched as an exploration of
heteronormativity, but throughthe eyes of a trans woman.

Brett Benner (21:33):
Yeah, and I think it's fascinating because I was
thinking about this whole ideaof, of Max and the hetero
normity, normative, normative,et.
A lot of

Nicola Dinan (21:42):
you got there.
I did

Brett Benner (21:44):
eventually, because I also, you know, this
is because I think this hasalways existed because I always
think of, you know.
In the queer community.
Even when, I remember when inthese states when gay marriage
was becoming legalized, and somany people saying, well, I'm
like, why am I gonna, why am Igonna subscribe to that?
Why am I gonna do that?
So I think it's such a prevalentthing that exists of always how

(22:07):
much do you subscribe tosomething?
How much do you give intosomething, and how much does
almost society just beat youdown with everything that it's
giving you to say.
But this is a thing you want,right?
You, you want to find yourpartner, you want to get
married, you wanna, you know,have children and have that
dream of the white picket fenceand the school and the kids

(22:27):
going off and the dog and all ofthose kind of things that you
subscribe to.
You know, here you have thischaracter and a, and a and what
in a many ways, like many in thequeer community who are gonna
rebel against it and say, but isthat actually what I want?
Mm-hmm.
Coupled with, but is it alsoreally comforting?

Nicola Dinan (22:45):
Absolutely.
And you know, I, I always thinkabout the success of the gay
marriage movement and how sortof the, the ideal image of sort
of a gay couple to sort of sellthe idea of gay marriage was
sort of a, you know, a two whitegay men with their dog with a
suburban home.
And it's like, look, they'rejust like us.

(23:05):
And you know, there's a, there'sa real sense of the ways in
which.
Queer people have bartered foracceptances through assimilation
and you know, we see that onracial lines as well.
And I think,

Brett Benner (23:17):
yeah,

Nicola Dinan (23:18):
you know, I, I'm really fascinated by that idea
because you know, though, Ithink what Max finds is that
though she may assimilate into aheteronormative world, she also
feels this deep sense ofalienation.
From it both in terms of itspromises and its its
expectations.
And I think those things oftencome in hand.
The promises are given, uh, inexchange for certain

(23:40):
expectations being met, and Ithink she sort of has to
confront that whilst alsofeeling.
Quite alienated from the queerworld that she inhabits in
London, which is, you know, muchless concerned with
revolutionary potential than itis with sort of appearing at the
right events and seeming a, acertain type of call and those

(24:02):
things, which maybe she held,um, a huge sense of, or placed a
huge amount of importance on inher no longer means as much in
her thirties and yet.
That's how she's identified withher queerness during that time.
And so what does it mean for herto fall down the stairs at a New
Year's Eve party and really wantto pull away from a world which
she doesn't think necessarilyserves her anymore, but that

(24:23):
doesn't necessarily dispel herown queerness, and I think
right.
We witness in the novel, thesetensions between, you know,
these feelings of desire andalienation that often are
directed at the exact samething.
And I think, you know, max.
As a trans woman whotransitioned a large number of

(24:46):
years before the start of thenovel is sort of lived her
medical transition with the aimof assimilation.
And here it is, you have the uh,you have the nice boyfriend who
seems accepting of you, andeveryone sees you as just mostly
just a cis, her couple or justlike everyone else.
I think she doesn't find as muchpeace in that as she had hoped,

(25:09):
and I.
As a writer, what's interestingfor me is that I'm often
described as writing lovestories I've seen disappoint me,
described as a love story.
Bellies I've seen described as alove story, and I find that so
interesting because I see mybooks as being part, maybe part
of a.
Larger project of thedeprioritization of romantic

(25:30):
love.
You know, I think in many waysBellies is more breakup novel
than it is a classical lovestory.
Um, and in some ways, yes, maxand Vincent's relationship is
sort of a, the focal point ofthe novel, but almost it
functions as a way to bring, um.
Other aspects of their characterthat to the fore rather than

(25:52):
focusing on the love.
And I don't think the lesson isthat romantic love is going to
save max.
Rather what she learns is howto, um, approach it with this
greater sense of realism forwhat it can do for her.

Brett Benner (26:06):
Sure.
And I also think what you saidtoo is, you know, it's like the
careful what you wish for.
Mm-hmm.
Because I think.
This really resonated with melast night as I was going back
through this idea of identityand assimilation, and for
someone like Max, who, like yousaid, had transitioned, so she's
very much in her life and forall, for all observers.

(26:27):
For the most part.
They just, she probably justgoes through her life appearing
as a cisgendered, heterosexualwoman.
But I think, again, this reallyresonated me as.
As a queer person, becausewhat's happening right now in
the trans community is the, weall know is the exact same thing
that has happened, happenedpreviously, years and years ago
with the gay community and thenit moved into gay marriage and

(26:48):
now we're trans.
It's like, you know, who is theenemy in terms of sexuality and
gender and all of that thing,which is so horrifying, but.
You know, I remember being earlyon as a gay person, you know,
you'd always just say, well, youknow, gay is not my whole
identity.
I'm so much more than just beinggay.
And the irony of all that islike, I keep looking at that now
and think, but it's exactly whatmy identity is.

(27:10):
Sure.
I'm more than my sexuality.
But at the same time, it'sexactly what identifies me.
It's exactly what gives me mypoint of view.
There used to be that questionthat I remember years and years
and years ago, friends wouldsay, if you could take a pill
and change yourself.
With one pill, would you do it?
And I unequivocally always wouldsay, well, no, because this is
me.

(27:30):
This is my whole, this is a partof my identity.
And there's a passage when shetalks about it in here where she
says, I.
If I'm not performing queerness,if what I'm perceived to be as
just a woman and one who isn'ttrans or gay, then where did I,
where does identity really takeme?
What cause does it serve?
And I was like, wow, that's it.

(27:50):
Exactly.
I mean, it's staying true toyourself while also is it
finding the happily ever after,but on what terms?
I don't know.
And you've also created with.
Vincent, this guy who's soappealing, I mean, he really is
like Prince Charming.
You know, there's, there's,there's nothing about him that

(28:10):
would, you would be like, well,he's, he's, he's fantastic.
He's handsome.
He's sensitive, which is alsowhy I, I love what you've done
with the narrative and did youknow going into this, that you
were always going to have thispast for him that was kind of
gonna be in conversation withthe present?

Nicola Dinan (28:24):
I think when I, the moment I decided to.
Include Vincent's chapters whenhe's traveling in Thailand,
which was relatively early on indrafting the novel.
That was the moment it stoppedbeing sort of a collection of
different pieces of writing andbecame, in my mind, a novel that
was going to run to completion.

(28:45):
I think, you know, it just, it,it's not, the story's not there
without it.
I think so much of the.
And this links to what you justsort of said about identity, but
so much of the novelinterrogates the essential
reality that our past informsour present, uh, in a similar
way in which we can't deny thatbeing gay or being trans, uh,

(29:08):
though it may not defy theentirety of one's identity is
still a part of our identitiesthat informs our existence and
how we engage with the worldaround us in a way that we can't
really deny no matter how.
Mm-hmm.
Much we crave acceptance.
And so, you know, with Vincent,he goes on this gap here and bad

(29:28):
things happen.
You know, as you can sort ofimagine, I think maybe the White
Lotus season three, I knowactually a very useful heuristic
tool for, um, for, for readersof my book.
This is actually veryconvenient.
I know it was

Brett Benner (29:43):
so, it was so in syn and I was like.

Nicola Dinan (29:48):
As well.
And they go to the full moonparty, they go to the half moon
party in my book that it's, youknow, basically the same thing.
And I'm like, wow, what a greatvisual aid to illustrate.
It was amazing.
Illustrate the horrors of the,of these, of these Thailand
chapters with Vincent.
And you know, I think I was veryinterested in this idea of, um,

(30:08):
self-censorship.
I experienced this as a transperson, you know, um, how to, in
what ways do I sort of like tryto hide, you know, pictures of
what I, maybe what I looked likewhen I was a teenager, for
example.
Um, to what extent am I editing.
Aspects of my history so that Idon't have to confront the

(30:30):
person who I once was, whobrings up in feelings in me,
which are negative.
And I think that form of selfediting, and almost like the
deletion of self in so far thatit makes our present selves
uncomfortable is somethingthat's actually, I.
Seen across the board,, often insome more malicious forms.
As we see with Vincent.
I think there's sort of thisabsence of confrontation between

(30:51):
him and Fred in the years, whichhave lapsed since this bad thing
happened.
They never address it and itsort of festers and he wants to
run away from it almost, I thinksat himself.
Well.
Look how.
Far I've come, particularly withthis relationship with Max.
He's like, but you know, this issuch, such a amazing sort of
point of evidence for my ownpersonal growth.

(31:14):
But at the same time, can youreally say that your music
moving forward when part of youis still chained to the past?
And that process of un chainunchaining necessarily involves
a degree of confrontation that Ithink the characters aren't
really willing to participatein.
You know, to really, and, andyou see that.
Across the board, even with Maxand her relationship with her

(31:34):
father, who was an alcoholicwhen she was younger, and in
adulthood is in recovery.
But there's sort of instancesfrom her childhood, which it
causes her too much pain torevisit because there these
stories are.
Ways for her to blame herselffor the distance that she in
adulthood feels from her father.

(31:56):
I think the, theseconfrontations with the past are
incredibly painful.
There's something no one reallylikes to do, and yet they almost
feel like a necessary part ofmaking peace with oneself.
And you know, you can't run awayforever.
And I think that's what thehuman instinct propels us to do,
is to run.
And so in constructing thenovel, I wanted to.

(32:20):
Have these two timelines so thatthere could be an inevitable
collision that forces thesecharacters to do what they might
not otherwise have done, whichis to look

Brett Benner (32:31):
back.
And I think, all of thesecharacters in some ways are
evading something.
And they're, and they're notdealing with something head on,
while also grappling so many ofthe men in this, it's so much
toxic masculinity.
Mm-hmm.
Even her brother, Max's brotherJamie, who is Oh, Jamie.
I mean, he, he, he's such aninteresting character and I'm

(32:53):
like, dude, you're gonna figureit out.
I swear you're gonna figure itout eventually, but poor thing.
But

Nicola Dinan (32:58):
he's so close as well.
I think

Brett Benner (33:00):
he really is.
He's like right on that cuspwhere you're like, let's just
pull you over.
You almost see it, dude.
You almost are there.

Nicola Dinan (33:07):
He's, he's, I think Jamie was such an
interesting character to writebecause I, I, this is why I love
writing secondary characters.
I think, you know, when I talkabout my novels, I'm often stuck
with talking about theprotagonists of the novels,
which tend to exist in pairs.
But these secondary characters,I feel like are such a, I like
to give them lives of their own.

(33:27):
And also have their lives sortof play into the bigger themes
of the novel.
And I think you see that withMax's brother, Jamie, and also
her best friend Simone, who aregoing, going through things
which are cousins to thefeelings that Max and Vincent
are experiencing over the courseof the novel.
And you know, Jamie is just sopent.
He's so angry,

Brett Benner (33:46):
so angry.
He's

Nicola Dinan (33:47):
ordering in to all this anger.
Um, and he is so stuck in thesevery self-flagellating and
anxious patterns of behavior,which completely trap him from
any meaningful confrontationwith, you know, what he needs to
do to change.
And I think we all know someonelike that and feel that sort of

(34:10):
deep sense of frustration if notfor someone we know, if
sometimes for ourselves.

Brett Benner (34:15):
Do you have siblings?

Nicola Dinan (34:16):
Yeah, I'm the youngest of three.

Brett Benner (34:19):
How old is the oldest?

Nicola Dinan (34:21):
So I have two amazing older sisters.
One is six years older than meand one is four years older than
me.

Brett Benner (34:27):
And you're all very close.

Nicola Dinan (34:29):
Very close.
Yeah.

Brett Benner (34:31):
I love that.
Yeah.
I, I'm the youngest.
My, my, my sister, my oldestsister is, uh, 72 and then 70,
and then my brother's 64, sothere's a huge brother.
I'm 57, so there's a massivespread.
Wow.
Right.
And I'm the baby, so I didn'treally grow up with my sisters
only and my brother.
And we didn't, my brother isvery close to Jamie in a lot of

(34:52):
ways.
One of my favorite sequences insome of this was the old friends
that, that Max's old friends.
And so when the girls gettogether,'cause one of them is
getting married and they allcome together and it's so
wonderfully bitchy.
I.

Nicola Dinan (35:06):
Max

Brett Benner (35:07):
and Simone

Nicola Dinan (35:07):
are so

Brett Benner (35:07):
mean.
They're so mean, but it's sorelatable and I loved it.
It just, it's like literallylike, you know that that adage
like, if you don't have anythingnice to say, come sit by me.
And that's truly who they are.
And so, yeah.
That whole sequence, maybe laughso hard, but all of these
ancillary characters and yeah,I, they're all, they're all
great.
Simone in particular, at times Iwas like, wow, this kitty ass

(35:29):
clause.
But she's so much fun and she'salso, she's that ride or die
friend, right?
She will do anything for Max.
She's there, it's like noquestions asked.
They're there and they'll bebrutally honest with each other
as much as they can be.
And she also, I just like theway she pushes Max a bit too
into in situations that arepotentially.
Uncomfortable and she's thatfriend.

Nicola Dinan (35:50):
What's so interesting about Simone and
Max's friendship for me is thatSimone does something in the
novel, which again continues,which changes how Max sees her,
and that's really strange anddifficult for Max and
destabilizing to see an oldfriend in a new light.
And it's not completely outtaSimone's character, but it's

(36:11):
almost the part of.
Simone's character that Max getsto enjoy, but in this particular
situation, she's unable to enjoyit because what Simone does is
very out of kilter with Max'svalues.
Mm-hmm.
And it's, it's sort of, I likedwriting that friendship because
although it's sort of like theenduring love story of the
novel, it's like therelationship, you know, will

(36:32):
last and stand the test of timebeyond any romantic relationship
that may enter or leave thewomen's lives.
It's also.
Sort of an illustration of howpeople sort of continue to
change and surprise us and howwe sort of deal with that and
reconcile these new versions ofthese people with what we have

(36:54):
with, with our existingimpressions of them.

Brett Benner (36:56):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Um, do you write poetry as well?

Nicola Dinan (37:03):
No, so I don't actually, I did try write more
poetry for this book andinitially there were like way
more poems in the novel and theywould sort of separate the
chapters.
And my agent was very nice aboutthem.
She was like, wow, these arequite good.
My editor was like, Nicola,these have to go, these are not
good.
And they interrupt the flow ofthe novel, however.

(37:24):
I was allowed, uh, to keep sortof the opening poem, which is
actually just a very smallcollection of lines, which were
initially part of a larger poemand the last poem, which I'm
really happy about.
I think it's beautiful.
I like that the book ends with apoem and I don't think it's.
For everyone necessarily.
But I'm a big fan of ambiguityin literature.

(37:47):
I think it provides enoughcertainty for me, like I read it
and I am like, okay, I have asense of what's gonna happen or
what has happened, but there'salso a sense of which I don't
ever want.
Like really certain declarationsof a happy ending or a sad
ending.
The bow.
And I think, yeah, and that'sbecause I don't think that's how
life works.
I think life is a series ofhappy endings and sad endings,

(38:10):
and you can't guaranteehappiness forever at any point
in your life.
And I think that is kind of whatthe novel is about.
I think Max and Simone, eventowards the end of the novel,
have a conversation on this verytopic and right.
You know, there's a sense of,oh, I feel bad for not first
sort of denying my reader'scertainty.

(38:31):
But I also think the, the thingI love as an author is knowing
that when the reader puts thebook down, that's when the
conversation starts.
And I like to leave room forthat.

Brett Benner (38:44):
I'm so curious 'cause you had now two books
both dealing with trans women.
I'm curious as a trans writer.
Do you feel, whether it's beenput on you or not, this sense of
responsibility or no?
Is it simply like, look, I'mwriting the stories I wanna
write.
I'm just curious.
Does that make sense?

Nicola Dinan (39:02):
Yeah, no, definitely.
I think what, firstly, I thinkwhat's interesting to me is like
I am asked lots of questionsabout representation, not only
on the trans front, but maybefor the broader queer community.
When people look at the cast ofcharacters and the cause of
characters in my novels thattend to be quite racially
diverse as well.
But all of this is just a factorof my own life.

(39:22):
Like I write trans charactersbecause I'm trans and I find
writing a trans character.
Interesting.
I have a diverse.
Queer group of friends.
And that's sort of reflected inmy fiction because it's a
reality that I find interestingbecause I find my own life
interesting.
And so, you know, there's sortof, um, a freedom that comes
with that and that when I aminitially engaging in the

(39:45):
process of writing, I am notthinking too much about, um, the
politics of the way which I'mrepresenting characters, which I
think is the right way to do it.
I.
Look with fiction like yourfiction meets people where they
are.
Um, yeah, if someone, firstly, Ijust don't think anyone who.

(40:06):
Has no inclination towardsbelieving in the autonomy and
freedom of trans people is goingto be like, this is the book for
me.
Firstly, you know, I thinkthere's already, this is a book
club this month.
Mm.
There's sort of like anopenness, which probably already
comes from picking up a booklike mine.
I know.
That, uh, with that opennessusually comes a willingness to

(40:28):
see the characters I'm writingas human.
And so even if they're sort ofdistasteful, unlikeable,
whatever, I think I like to begenerous to my reader and
assuming that they'll be able todisentangle.
I.
The fact that those negativequalities, um, are not
necessarily intrinsically linkedor necessarily linked to the
fact that they're trans.

(40:49):
I think, I don't think, um,anything I write is necessarily
like an ammo for transphobes.
And if it was, then that's onthe basis of a pretty bad faith
reading of my work.
And I can't cater to people whowill read my work in bad faith
because I don't write books forthem.

Brett Benner (41:06):
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
That makes sense.
It's funny, I was, I had, um, awriter on named Emily St.
James and she wrote this bookcalled Woodworking.
You might have seen it, and, butit's interesting because I was
talking to her about you.
I.
Bellies now disappoint me.
'cause he said bellies andwoodworking were two books that
I would give anyone who was justeven questioning in an open

(41:29):
mind.
Just even say, I don'tunderstand the experience of
what it's like for someone whois facing the idea that they may
want to transition.
And those two books.
Are kind of in conversation witheach other about two individuals
who are facing this thing and,and the choices they make and
what it feels like and kind ofthe ins and outs and the
repercussions about witheveryone around it.

(41:50):
So that's what just made methink about it.
But again, what, what I loveabout both your books, it isn't,
they're just, I.
They're not what I would term astrans stories per se.
Mm-hmm.
They're stories that have transcharacters.
Clearly in bellies.
It's a much more kind of drivingforce in the beginning.
But disappoint me to me is justabout these characters.

(42:12):
I.
And this character happens to betrans the same way this
character happens to be Asianand this character's gay, or
this character's white, orwhatever it is.
And that's what makes both booksresonate so much with me.
They're just really interesting,really engaging characters who
have needs and wants and are.
Fucked up at times and do stupidshit like everyone does.

(42:36):
It's just life.
And that's why I think they'reso, they're not didactic,
they're not trying to, as youjust said earlier, it's not,
it's not a, it's not political,it's just this is life.
And that's why I think they'reamazing.

Nicola Dinan (42:50):
Yeah, I mean in the sense, you know, it's, it's,
I agree with you.
It's sort of not political inthat sense, but inevitably is
sort of political.
And I think, I know, you know,the ways, I, I think something
that presents as relativelyapolitical, like a novel like
this, can still have affectpolitical change because I think
if you want to understand how atrans person lives, um, I don't

(43:11):
think that comes from reading apamphlet.
I think it comes from engagingintimately with the lives of a
life of a trans person.
And I think maybe that's what.
A book like Disappoint Meoffers, and so there's sort of
a, uh, I don't think I canescape the question of politics,
particularly in the currentclimate and, you know, to speak

(43:32):
more broadly on fiction.
You know, I think what I loveabout fiction is that I think
good fiction does two things,and that sort of aims at
specificity, but universality atboth at once.
I don't think there's trueuniversality to any experience,
but.
What I at least try and what I'mtrying to get at by that is, you

(43:53):
know, I, I'm presenting a veryspecific set of circumstances.
Um, you know, with respect to atrans character.
The transness doesn't defineher, but it is still a very
important factor for how shenavigates a heterosexual
relationship, particularly whenthere are questions of things
like marriage and children.
And Traditionalism, but it'sstill, despite that very sort of

(44:16):
specific lens, I think it'sstill offering maybe more
universal questions, speaking tomore universal feelings, uh,
that than would necessarily beexpected by reading the profile
by one person reading theprofile of this character that
I've written.
And I think, you know, that'show we connect to one another,

(44:38):
but I.
You know, I don't think this iscontroversial of me to say, but
I think, you know, as we've sortof become a little bit more
educated on, uh, differentpeople's lived experiences,
there's almost been aninclination to say to people,
oh, I will never understand whatthat's like for you, almost as a
way of honoring their lifeexperiences.

(44:59):
And I can see where that comesfrom, and I think it comes from
a really good place.
At the same time, part of mesometimes as a trans person is
I'm like, what?
You can sort of understand whatthis is.
Like to me here, read my book.
But also, you know, there's asense of if you really engage
and you connect with someone andyou try to find points there,
points of commonality.

(45:20):
There are so many ways for youto attain a certain level of
understanding and for theirexperiences.
I don't think saying, oh, Ican't understand what that's
like for you is necessarilyhelpful.
If anything, it can be quitealienating and I think we should
embrace.
Our ability to understand oneanother, not necessarily to the
full degree of actuallyexperiencing ourselves, but

(45:42):
through finding through thesemore universal feelings, points
of contact with people who arenot like us.

Brett Benner (45:50):
A hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
That is such a great place tostop, but I have to ask you two
more things really quick.
Veka.
First is both of your books dealso much with food.
And making food and, and thesecharacters and Maximus, is that
a huge thing for you?
Are you a big foodie and didyou, you know, did you cook?

Nicola Dinan (46:10):
So I, I do cook, but I think my love of food
comes from the fact that I amMalaysian and you know, I was
born in Hong Kong, but a culturethat's hugely obsessed with
food.
Malaysia as well.
Hugely obsessed with food.
And so I often find myselfreading novels that.
We'll have a meal scene and I'mlike, why is the author not
describing what they're eating?

(46:31):
Like I, that is very importantsetting information to me to
know what's on the table.
It's sort of, I'm sadly one ofthose people where if you tell
me a story of something dramaticthat happened at dinner, I will
ask, what did you, what were youeating?
Because it just does so much toadd atmosphere for me.
And so I find myself writingabout food a lot for that

(46:51):
reason, but also because I thinkso much of my novels are
centered on intimacy, um,situations in which people feel
comfortable to be intimate withone another, to have difficult
conversations.
Um, one of those, uh, one ofthose settings in which those
conversations naturally happenare meal times.
Like that's when people sit downwith one another and talk.
And so.
You know, I write food becauseit's a, it's a means to bring

(47:15):
people together in the contextof a novel in a similar way to
which, like, sex operatessimilarly, you know, you
characters have sex and they'reable to be more emotionally
vulnerable once they've achievedthis level of physical intimacy.
And so I think that's sort ofthe reason.
It's sort of, it's, it's auseful tool, but I'm also not
gonna not describe the food.

Brett Benner (47:34):
It also just makes me think like I, I, I've always
found going to anyone's housefor a dinner party, whatever,
people always seem to generatetowards the kitchen naturally.
Mm-hmm.
And there's just that thing ofsomeone chopping and everyone
standing there with their wineglass.
Absolutely.
It speaks to so much of thislast thing, this is just a
sidebar what's happening withthe Bellies series?
It's

Nicola Dinan (47:54):
not happening.
Where

Brett Benner (47:55):
is

Nicola Dinan (47:55):
it?
It's not, I, no, so I mean, asI'm sure you'll know from
conversations with authors orjust, you know, being in the
world, like TV's in a really badspot and I think, yeah, no, it's
terrible.
What's so interesting is thatthere was so much excitement
when we were selling the rightsto bellies three years ago.
I've never, you know, my agent,my film TV agent was like, I've

(48:16):
never experienced a suffer ofinterest for something.
And then it seemed within thetwo years after that, everything
sort of slowly fell apart.
Because the, the tone ofprojects that the industry was
willing to take on and what feltlike a riskier environment, uh,
not just politically, but alsoin terms of like what will bring

(48:36):
in viewers meant that sort ofthese slow relationship dramas
weren't going to getcommissioned.
And so, you know, unless I.
You know, I'm not gonna add amurder or an alien or a dragon
to bellies and unfor.
So unfortunately I'm in, I, myoptions are up.
But you know, I hope that withtime, maybe there'll be
reignited interest when theconditions change.

(48:59):
And also there are otherexciting things going on because
the TV show isn't happening.
It means that.
The theater project, the theateradaptation with bellies might be
able to go ahead.
Wow.
And so, oh wow.
I think, you know, with thisindustry, it's important to not
focus too much on what can feellike huge amounts of loss and
just be thinking about, youknow, opportunities for

(49:22):
different creative projects.
And that's why love writingnovels so much because.
I don't feel, um, I don't feelat the mercy of, you know,
industry conditions as extremelyas I do when, you know, it
concerned the TV adaptationwhere so much was out of my
hands.
What's amazing about writing isthat I can just always write,
it's such a low, right?

(49:43):
It's such like a low, um.
Low barriers to entry professionto have.
All you really need is a pen andpaper, and I don't think a lot
of jobs can say that.

Brett Benner (49:54):
No, no.
And, and you are, you're,you're, you're absolutely right.
I mean, you're, you're helmingyour own ship.
In this way.
And, um, but that's a bummeronly because I was like, oh my
God, that creative team, and Ithought that they did such a
terrific job with, with normalpeople.
Yes.

Nicola Dinan (50:10):
Yeah.
They're amazing.
I had, I've got so much out ofthe experience and yeah, I, I,
I, I have some quiet hopes forthe future for it, but for now,
we're onto the next thing.

Brett Benner (50:21):
Well, and like you said, like listen, you're
completely prolific at thispoint and like you've opened up
this creative floodgate whereit's all just coming through and
I love that so much.
Wait, is your next book sci-fi?
Is that what I heard?

Nicola Dinan (50:33):
So you're not allowed to call it sci-fi'cause
the sci-fi people come for you.
So I've You call it speculative.
Speculative, yes, yes.
There we go.
Exactly.
You called it speculative.
So, um, it's a speculation ofnovel set in 1980s, Hong Kong.
That follows to Chinese, um,employees of a major airline who

(50:53):
were given the strange task ofcollecting the used cigarette
butts of first class passengersfor a secret project in which
their British barrister husbandsare implicated.
So it's sort of like a juicymystery set in the very
glamorous 19.

Brett Benner (51:11):
Wow.
That sounds amazing.

Nicola Dinan (51:13):
Thank you.

Brett Benner (51:14):
So something to look forward to.

Nicola Dinan (51:16):
Yeah.

Brett Benner (51:17):
Well, I could talk to you literally all day.
This was such a delight.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for being hereand sharing so much insight.
Please everyone get the book.
It is so, so, so, so good.
Um, I.
I'm curious too, to hear theaudio.
I mean, having listened tobellies, I know it's completely
different.
It's so good.
Readers.
It's, yeah, the audio is,

Nicola Dinan (51:35):
I'm so proud of it.
I, I don't narrate it obviously,but I'm really proud of the
actors.

Brett Benner (51:39):
I know there was a part of me that almost would've
loved to hear you narrate someof it.
I would just loved to have heardyour spin on Max's dialogue.
But it is so good you guys.
And please buy independent ifyou are able to buy independent.
Yep.
But again, thank you for beinghere and, um.
Good luck with all of this.
I'm so excited for you.

Nicola Dinan (51:59):
Thank you.

Brett Benner (52:02):
If you like this conversation, please consider
subscribing at your podcastplatform of choice.
Also, what would be reallyhelpful is if you had the time
to give a review, it can be asshort or as long as you want,
but anything helps with thealgorithm and helps more people
become aware of the show and itwould help me out a lot.
So thanks so much as always forlistening, and I'll be back next

(52:24):
week with another episode ofBehind the Stack beginning, a
double feature June, which willhave two episodes each week
through the entire month, solook out for that.
Have a great week.