February 4, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with Olivia Wolfgang-Smith to discuss her new novel, "Mutual Interest" which is an Indie Next Pick for February. We talk about the books third person narrative, gender roles, found families, capitalism, and finding queer joy in historical fiction.
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https://www.instagram.com/owolfgangsmith/
Olivia's website:
http://wolfgangsmith.squarespace.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everybody.
It's Brett and welcome orwelcome back to another episode
of behind the stack.
Wow, we're into February.
I don't know about you, but Itruly feel like that was the
longest year.
In one month, I hope you all areholding up.
I hope you all made it through.
Okay.
I hope you found plenty of booksto read on a side note, I don't
(00:21):
know if any of you are, TVwatchers or streamers, but one
thing that we started to watchjust past week, and it's really
enjoyable.
It's on Hulu.
Uh, it's called paradise.
Really.
Good show.
I don't really want to tell youtoo much about it.
It's a really good cast withSterling Brown and James Marsden
and Julianne Nicholson, who isjust incredible.
(00:42):
But if you like a good thrillerthat is twisty, definitely,
definitely, definitely checkthis out.
And there's only been threeepisodes up so far, so you can
totally catch up.
All right.
Before we start with our guesttoday.
I wanted to shout out a fewbooks that are also coming out
on this date that lookinteresting to me.
The first is Glyph by Ali Smith.
(01:04):
This is the first of a two bookseries.
It sounds almost a littledystopian about two teenage
siblings in a world that's asinister version of our own
where citizens deemedundesirable are labeled
unverifiables.
So, that's the first.
The next one It's called Isolaby Allegra Goodman, about a 16th
(01:28):
century French noblewoman andher lover who are abandoned on a
Canadian island in Goodman'shistorical novel, and how they
survive.
It looks great and it's anincredible cover.
Memorial Day by GeraldineBrooks.
This is a nonfiction book aboutthe death of Geraldine Brooks
husband, Tony Horowitz.
And how she got through thegrieving process.
(01:49):
She moved to a remote islandnear Tasmania and this memoir is
basically how she got throughit.
TJ Klune's The Bones Beneath MySkin, which if I'm not mistaken,
this is an older book thatthey're reissuing.
But it's about a young manwho's.
Parents are dead.
His journalism career is inshambles and he arrives at his
(02:12):
family's old vacation cabin,hoping to escape, but instead is
greeted by a strange little girland a wounded man who holds him
at gunpoint.
And soon Nate found himselfcaught up in a web of car
chases, government conspiracies,and alien encounters.
All wrapped around aheartwarming story of love and
found family set in the 1990sand TJ Klune is notorious for
(02:33):
his great found family stories.
Then this other nonfiction book,which I started and just put it
down and I really want to comeback to, which is called
Shattered by Hanif Qureshi.
Qureshi is a British writer whofell and injured himself in 2022
while he was in Rome.
And when he came to, he wasalmost completely paralyzed.
So this.
(02:54):
is a memoir of his recovery,filled with dark humor and
musings on his past and on manyof life's unpredictable events.
And then the last thing I wantedto talk about was Bibliophobia
by by Sarah Shahaya.
this is such an interesting kindof hybrid of memoir and litcrit.
Sarah Shahaya basically wasstruggling with depression and
(03:19):
It follows that journey while atthe same time discussing the
books in our lives that arebasically ruiners.
They're the books that you can'tget out of your head, that make
you think about things totallydifferent, that, You're not able
to let go.
You have to have conversationsabout it with other people.
It, it, it changes the way youpossibly will think about
(03:41):
things.
One of mine, I can tell you outof the gate is a little life,
which I read when it first cameout and it's still, it's
something that I think aboutregularly, but I'm about halfway
through this book.
It's, it's not very big.
It's incredibly interesting.
And for anybody who is a.
(04:01):
reader You should definitelycheck this out.
It's really cool.
And then the last book, outtoday is, our guest on the show,
Olivia Wolfgang Smith and herbrand new book, Mutual Interest.
It's really fantastic.
Such a fun read, creative, laughout loud, funny, moving.
(04:23):
Well, let me tell you a littlebit about Olivia.
Olivia Wolfgang Smith, her debutnovel, Glassworks, was long
listed for the Center forFiction and the VCU Cabal First
Novel Prizes and named a BestBook of the Year by NPR, Apple,
and Good Housekeeping.
She's a 2024 New York statecouncil on the arts, New York
foundation for the arts fellowin fiction, and she lives in
(04:46):
Brooklyn with her partner.
So enjoy this episode of behindthe stack.
You
I'm so happy to have Olivia Wolfgang Smith here
today with her beautiful book,Mutual Interest, thank you.
For being here,
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (05:04):
thank you so much for having me.
Brett Benner (05:05):
One of the things just to dive right in.
I wondered if you have anelevator pitch for the book?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (05:09):
Oh, this is good.
I should be practicing itanyway.
I describe it as a queer EdithWharton pastiche.
That's like my super shorthandversion of it.
So we're in New York city at theturn of the 20th century.
Okay.
And, uh, this is about a lesbianand a gay man.
Those are the labels they wouldprobably use today.
Who have a lot of their ownpersonal and professional dramas
(05:31):
that they bring to gettingmarried, to one another.
And then they kind of loop in athird partner, both for a
business venture and sort of tobe part of their romantic and
domestic life.
That's my, that's, that's myattempt at an elevator pitch.
Brett Benner (05:45):
That that was very concise and fantastic.
Um, you nailed it.
Just from the get go, I love thetitle because it had so many
meanings, beyond, sexuality and,the whole lean into capitalism
and business.
was that something that cameright away?
You knew that this was going tobe the title?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (06:04):
Um, that's a really good question.
Actually, for the whole timethat I was writing this book, I
was calling it the syndicate.
Which kind of was doing similarthings in my head.
I was like, this is a word thatdescribes these people's, like,
romantic and sexual lives andpersonal lives as well as their
business life.
and that came from an EdithWharton, short story called The
(06:24):
Other Two.
which is about a man who,accidentally makes friends with
both of his wife's, And like, hedescribes them several times in
this, like, tone of greatanxiety as a syndicate, that he
and the two ex husbands, havingthis, Mutual interest in this
woman.
We were thinking through as wekind of brought the book into
(06:46):
life of being like, okay,Syndicate sounds like a John
Grisham novel.
If you don't know what it'sabout, you're going to see it on
the shelf and maybe not, not seeown drawing room novel of
manners, romance, love story.
Um, so we were trying to thinkof other, other terms that
conveyed the same thing.
So.
Long answer to your question, ithasn't always been mutual
interests, but it has alwaysbeen, clear that the title of
(07:09):
this book would have to besomething that described all the
weird, multivalent levels ofthis relationship that's at the
center of it.
Brett Benner (07:17):
and before, before we get into that relationship,
I, I want to talk about, cause Ilove the third person narration
in this, for any of ourlisteners or viewers who are,
you know, pop cultureenthusiasts, it leans into the
Bridgerton of it all.
And I loved it so much becauseit lends itself to having so
(07:38):
much humor and just thecommenting on, what's happening.
Was that something you, again,wanted to do right away or has
it found itself?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (07:46):
Oh yeah, that was definitely like from
the get go, like the firstthing.
And yeah, Bridgerton and thisbook are definitely having some
of the same kinds of fun withsome of the same tropes of
these, like, like this kind ofstyle.
It's typical of sort ofhistorical novels of this, like
very omniscient, very intrusivenarrator, that has like a lot
(08:09):
of, Social commentary and like,kind of affectionate, like,
judgment of the characters.
So yeah, that was like, baked infrom the very beginning.
I started the, like, very firstdrafting of what became this
novel, was just like,experimenting with that voice.
that level of narrative.
My, my first book was very, veryclose third person.
Like, I was always very tied toone character at a time.
(08:32):
And I, what I found was that itwas like so much fun to be able
to, to be able to write this waywith a character that knows
everything, a narrator thatknows everything.
So yeah, I couldn't, couldn'tstop once I had started.
Brett Benner (08:43):
Did you have a, did you have a specific voice in
your head?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (08:46):
Asking me this, I've been starting to get
a question, just like from allsorts of people, like who is the
narrator?
Um, and so maybe that is likethe Bridgerton question, I guess
that's coming into it.
Brett Benner (08:55):
No, it is.
Well, I think it is because itsuddenly be like, you know, the
reveal of like, you know, Ohdear reader, you know what I
mean?
Is it, is Julie Andrews.
Yeah.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (09:04):
Yeah.
This, this narrator, and theyalso uses the royal we, um, from
time to time.
Yes.
And so yeah, I've had, I'vegotten started to get questions
about like who the narrator is.
Is it me?
Like, it's kind of interestingto see what pronouns people
choose to, like, use for thenarrator a little bit.
I find that to be, I kind oflike it being an open question.
(09:25):
I think that, there is a, thereis a true omniscience to this
narrator, I was thinking a lotas I read this book about, like,
queer community and, the sortof, mutual archival project.
And that's who I think of as theimplied narrator.
As much as I was thinking of it,the question, I love the
question and it fascinates mebecause it is not something I
(09:47):
was thinking about as I waswriting it.
I didn't have, like, a onesecret person in mind that this
narrator was.
Brett Benner (09:53):
But you didn't hear it a specific way, like
female or male, or was itsomething, or was it just
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (09:59):
I truly didn't.
Interesting.
Yeah, I truly didn't, and Ithink that, um, I sort of, it's
a, it's a wonderful thing torealize in the moment of getting
the question, because I thinkthat it's so easy to be overly
self conscious as a writer andto sort of, for me, I should say
it's easy for me to be overlyself conscious especially with
something that is so, um,stylized as this kind of
(10:20):
narration, I sort of am like,oh, thank goodness.
I didn't even realize I wasescaping this high concept, uh,
you know, thing that I think Ithink if I had had a specific
voice in mind, in terms of aspecific person, it might have
weighed me down.
Or stuck me, like if it hadbeen, if it had been a woman, I
might have been stuck more in acertain character's perspective.
(10:41):
If I had added that, like, Ithink that it allowed, allowed
like a true fluidity that Ididn't even, I wasn't even
conscious of it, that I was,that I was
Brett Benner (10:50):
doing.
I would love to, Sit in a roomof people who have read the book
and pull everyone and and say,was the narrator for you a male
female?
What was the voice?
I would just be fascinated tohear how people perceived it
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (11:05):
because it
Brett Benner (11:05):
was for me.
It was very much a woman.
And I'm not going to lie.
I did slip into Julie Andrews alittle bit, but I, you know,
because I just felt this kind ofproper, um, all knowing British
woman, but I, I am so curioushow other people hear that
voice.
I
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (11:22):
think it's fair.
It is fair to say that.
Of the three main characters, ifit's any one's book, it's
Vivian's book, like, but, but,so it does make sense.
If I had to, if I had to pick,like, now that I, now that I
know that I want to be, I wantto be stubborn and not pick, but
I, but I did.
Like, um, it certainly, thebook, like, belongs to her as
much as it belongs to everyone.
(11:43):
And the narrator does have anawareness of marginalized
people.
Characters experiences that doesnot really sure that is maybe
fits more to being a femalevoice than a male But
Brett Benner (11:56):
And also slightly modern as well, which is
interesting almost a modernsensibility looking at this So
you said about it being firstand foremost a Vivian story.
Is that where you started withthis?
Was she the kind of impetus?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (12:12):
yes and no, actually the, the, the
impetus was sort of, so theother two characters are, are
Squire and Oscar, who are these,these sort of two, I don't know
if I don't, hapless might be toounkind a word for them, but
these other two, central figuresfor the book, and they're based
on one iota of real historicaltrivia, um, which is that,
(12:33):
Proctor and Gamble, WilliamProctor and James Gamble,
Historically were, businessrivals, were professional
enemies before they gottogether.
One of them was a candle maker,one of them was a soap maker.
And they were in competition forlike the raw materials of both
candles and soap at the timebeing made out of.
Animal fat, um, tallow.
They were in competition forthis limited resource.
(12:55):
So they hated each other.
and then happened to marry intothe same family.
And then had a common father inlaw who sort of like banged
their heads together and waslike, you, why are you fighting?
You should go into businesstogether.
I happened to learn that inpassing and I was like, that is
so fascinating.
It's the senior, but like, Iwould, I need.
I need more.
I had some scripts notes forreality.
(13:16):
I was like, I need them to fallin love.
I need them to like this to belike a true partnership and I
need it to be, I need there tobe a more fascinating figure who
is sort of pulling the strings,of them getting together.
So it's a very roundabout answerto your question that Vivian,
Vivian sort of came last.
But.
She was the first moment that IStarted writing a story in my
(13:40):
head right like like so so theidea of these two men Was what
like first piqued my interest?
But then when it became the bookwas what was the idea Vivian she
sort of catalyzed it into astory
Brett Benner (13:52):
It's so interesting.
The kind of family they make upvery quickly.
It's, it's almost, it remindedme a little bit of Noel Coward's
design for living.
And this everything from theoutside and anyone looking at
this.
These people would assume thatthis one was a couple and, you
know, these other two werepartners.
But what's actually going onbehind closed doors.
(14:16):
I just loved it.
And it also speaks so much tothe idea of, found family
because all three of thesecharacters, as you learn in the
book are all outcasts in someways.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (14:27):
Yeah, sure.
Brett Benner (14:27):
What I love about Vivian is she's incredibly
strong.
She's so far ahead of her time.
She's shrewd, she's practical,she's incredibly smart.
She's almost the epitome of, ifyou can lock up capitalism in a
person she is.
That thing, Can you talk alittle bit about how you, you've
switched up the gender roles ina brilliant way where you've
(14:51):
kind of taken the woman and madeher the strong, aggressive,
business minded, and you'vedomesticated the two men and
almost put them in this, uh, Youknow, domesticated story about,
uh, well, two men.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (15:06):
Yeah, I think that, I mean, Vivian's
situation is, is, yeah, she's,you're right.
She's a true capitalist.
And in the sense, partly thatshe's a true.
Individualist.
I think that that's somethingthat from what we see of her
origin story or her childhoodand her upbringing that there
was like a survival tactic, inher family of origin.
(15:28):
and I think that that's just avalue system that she brings to
her adult life as well.
And, I think that, For all threeof these characters, they're all
very, um, let's say driven bytheir inner children, if that
makes sense.
By like, by, by wounds of earlylife.
So that it happens to fall alongwhat maybe we would still
(15:51):
consider atypical genderstereotype lines now.
And certainly we're, uh, 20thcentury when these characters
are living.
Which kind of makes them, uh.
a little bit freer almost in thesense that they're so outside
the bounds of what their societyis even Looking for that they
can kind of hide in plain sighta little bit but yeah that that
(16:13):
we have by chance the two malecharacters, oscar and squire are
In very different ways, peoplewho are, looking for, like, this
kind of, settled domestic love,and that Vivian is someone who
is not looking, not looking forsafety there.
She's looking for a differenttype of safety.
Brett Benner (16:29):
It's interesting because, even their view in
terms of sex.
Oscar seems initially to have somuch kind of shame towards his
sexuality, his proclivities and,and Vivian revels in it.
And I love that so much.
I just love she's looking for itand she knows where to find it
and she knows how to spot itand, um, and what that means.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (16:49):
Part of that too, is how.
Homosexuality was spoken about,at that time in this very
fascinating way where it waslike very clear that and that
male homosexuality was a thing.
And like that there would be,you know, it was like
criminalized and there were veryserious like repercussions, but,
and then like, Lesbianism was alittle bit more nobody really
(17:11):
knew.
Did it exist?
What was it?
How could you tell if it washappening?
And so like that, that some ofthat sort of shame and fear on
Oscar's part is like a very realLike society was very willing to
tell him what was wrong and whatwould happen to him if he was
caught as opposed There's alittle bit more Latitude to
operate in for Vivian than forOscar.
Brett Benner (17:32):
Yeah, it's such an interesting thing and I don't
know how much of that's changedSadly or whatever because I
Always just say people had aeasier time with gay men if they
said, okay they they Havehardcore sex and that they're
promiscuous.
And that was easier.
I think that's easier for peopleto get their head around than
Two men.
(17:52):
having a loving relationship orintimacy.
I have to ask this about Squirecause he's such an interesting
character.
Spectrum.
Yes.
Did you view him as on thespectrum?
I mean what we now know isprobably someone on the
spectrum.
They wouldn't have known that.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (18:05):
Yeah, I think that that's a good way to
put it that if Squire wereliving in the world today, he
would probably be diagnosed ason the autism spectrum.
I think that a lot of thingsAbout this book are about these
kinds of like labels andidentities and the fact that
people who have theseexperiences and live These
descriptions have existed for aslong as people have existed And
(18:28):
that that kind of thesedifferent identities are very
differently conceptualized andvery differently treated both
like internally and externallythroughout time but and in
different eras, Folks of all ofthese types, like moving through
the world and like looking forunderstanding, including from
their loved ones has been aconstant this whole time.
Brett Benner (18:48):
Completely.
Are you a history buff?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (18:50):
Um, yeah, it's very, very much a lay
person.
So I have no credentials.
I love reading like a lot.
It's mostly like pop histories.
Like I'm going to museums.
I'm starting, I'm, I'm levelingup through the process of being
a historical novelist.
I've gotten a lot better atresearch, which has gotten me
the more you learn, the betteryou get at learning, but Yeah,
(19:12):
it is, it's, it is lifelong, butvery amateur.
Brett Benner (19:16):
Interesting.
Okay, so my other question, wasabout this business that they go
on to, which could follow inline with Procter Gamble, with
the scent and the candlebusiness I was so curious, are
you someone who's interested inthat?
Are you someone who's a, A centperson A are you that type of
person
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (19:34):
this is the first time I've gotten this
question, um, and I've like,it's, uh, inevitable and great
to get it.
But so, so yeah.
The business that they're in ispersonal care is like the term
for it.
at at this time in history,like, cosmetics, uh, soap
lotion.
They do scented candles inthere.
Um, and I've taken a lot of.
Liberties with, like, how abusiness like this might be run
(19:56):
and, like, where it's likely tohave been based.
but again, this is another areain which I am an enthusiastic,
layperson, amateur.
I have no, I kind of had theidea when I started writing this
book of like, I want to be into,like, I've, one of my dreams is
to someday, is to have, like, a,Like a signature perfume, the
way that I associate with, withlike my grandmother, like it's
(20:18):
like there's this certain scentor like a signature lip color,
like certain kind of things thatyou just associate with certain
people, um, I've never, I havenever been a person like that,
and I had that idea when Istarted writing this book, like,
If I'm going to write a bookabout three people who run a
perfume and cosmetics business,I'm going to come out of it
knowing exactly like what mysignature scent is going to be.
(20:40):
Hasn't happened.
If you have any suggestions, Iam like ready for them.
I swear to God,
Brett Benner (20:45):
I pictured you, I literally pictured you at the
cosmetics counter of some, youknow, department store trying on
a million different scents andspraying it to get the scents or
just trying to break down themakeup of each individual thing
because it's so specific in thebook.
Yeah.
And what they're using, um, atthe very least, I imagined you
writing with a lavender candle.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (21:05):
Yes.
Well, and I'm not going to lie.
I have had special, certainspecial candles for, for
different times of working onthis book.
Yes.
I think it's, I learned enoughto know how much I don't know.
Like I think that I learned howcomplex like this, this business
and this art and science is butI understand how complicated it
is.
I'm a little bit more forgivingof myself for not having more of
(21:26):
an instinct of like what theperfect scent on the occasion
would be.
Sure.
Yeah.
Uh, there are some characters inthis book who are less talented
than others and I kind of fallmore on their side of the
equation.
Brett Benner (21:38):
As someone who is queer today, and you were, doing
the research for this book, wasthere stuff that surprised you,
either in a positive or negativeway, that you wouldn't have
thought of before going into it?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (21:49):
Um, I don't know if surprise is the
word, but I did find doing someof the research for this book
very, uh, therapeutic.
As a queer person living in NewYork City, the city I was
writing about.
In the moment that it is.
Again, like, we know that queerpeople have always existed, and
always found community, andfound joy, and, you know, been
(22:10):
more than, items in a policeblocker, uh, in the newspaper,
but it is It's really like ajoyful thing to like read and
find evidence of those things.
I've had some conversations withfolks that I just encourage
anyone who's even a little bitcurious about that to look into,
um, your local history if that'swhat interests you, but that
(22:31):
it's truly a joy, um, to, to dothat kind of research into the
archive.
Brett Benner (22:36):
Yeah, it is fascinating.
And what I find, especiallyinteresting is the way that
people found each other,throughout it.
I read that one of the thingsthat you talked about was how
The M.
Forrester's Morris was very,influential on your work.
Um, oh my gosh, and I have toshow you this.
I thought of you because when Iwas reading all this.
(22:59):
Faber is publishing these newversions
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (23:02):
of
Brett Benner (23:04):
their illustrated editions of E.
M.
Forrester's books.
And, I just thought they're,they're so beautiful, but it was
interesting because I opened upthe first page and it says in
here, content warning.
This edition is the originaltext from 1971.
It may contain language that'soffensive to some readers.
Oh,
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (23:19):
wow.
So
Brett Benner (23:20):
I have no idea what that is yet, but I'm so
curious.
Oh, my gosh.
And, I remember this was becauseI'm a little bit older than you.
I remember this was one of thefirst Queer books are books with
queer content that I ever read.
And I remember sitting like Igrew up in Pittsburgh.
I remember sitting on the trainto go on down into town and I
had a paperback copy of it.
(23:41):
And I was so terrified thatsomeone would know what it was
just by the cover and that thatI was reading it and what that
meant.
But finding this, like, key intosomething that I couldn't fully
understand, I just related toit.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (23:57):
Yeah, that resonates with me.
I've heard a lot of people have,like, really similar experiences
with that book.
I think that there's something,like, I think that that goes
back to the 19 teens people havebeen having that experience with
that book in a way that's reallyincredible.
Brett Benner (24:11):
It did make me wonder as I was reading this, is
it important for you in terms ofyour writing and these
characters you're creating tocreate a world that shows queer
people in a positive light orthat have some sense of maybe a
happy ending?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (24:29):
Yeah, and that is a really, there are a
lot of like big lessons ofMorris and that is one of them.
That's something that reallysticks with me about it that it
was so important to Forrester tohave that.
to have a happy ending, I thinkthat, I felt very in communion
with queer readers and writersfrom before me and after me,
partly because I have this likehistorical novel with this high
(24:51):
omniscient, like narrator thatkind of has this sort of implied
knowledge of both, The ancientpast and to some extent, to some
mysterious extent, the future,so, uh, yeah, I think that it
was an important part of thisbook to me to, not deny any kind
of darkness, but to have thisnot be a tragic story, I wrote
(25:11):
this book because I love, andhave always loved, novels of
manners.
Like, this kind of, this sortof, like, type of, of book, and
this type of love story.
And, wanted it to feel like agift for other people who also
love this kind of book, and whomaybe also have felt like a wish
that there were more queerstories in this genre and I
certainly didn't want it to be agift that then turned into like
(25:34):
getting the rug pulled out fromunder you about like that kind
of, that kind of joy.
Um, so yeah, that, that'scertainly something that was on
my mind.
Brett Benner (25:41):
Yeah, and I love it because, because of
everything you just said.
First of all, I love the timeperiod.
The way you describe it, justthe New York City, all of it,
the interiors.
It's so beautiful.
It's, it's, it's almost weirdlylike a fairy tale.
No pun intended.
So much of so much of what seemsto get published sometimes.
And it absolutely.
deserves and needs a place areeither coming of age stories or
(26:04):
queer stories that have moretragic bends to them.
And so that's another reason whyI just love this so much because
they're flawed characters.
They're very human characters.
Um, but their sexuality is justa component of who they are,
which is just a large part ofthe larger fabric of the whole
thing.
And, and I really, really,really, really appreciated that.
(26:24):
Can you talk a little bit aboutthis idea of found family, with
the three of them, even going asfar as, and this is not really a
spoiler, but kind of aheteronormative idea about
connecting and then children andall that kind of idea, but can
you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (26:38):
Yeah, sure.
Um, so I think that, yeah, thereare certain things about found
family and chosen family that Ithink are kind of on the surface
here that we've got like thesepeople who are literally like
kind of.
running away from home in somecases, being kind of these
transplants, getting almostkicked out of home in other
cases, and sort of startingover, finding each other, like
forming this literal, like, youknow, domestic, partnership.
(27:02):
I think that part of what I'm,was interested in is the way
that found family.
We hear it so often, referred toin a book.
purely positive light of likeall of the great things found
family can do for you, and soi'm also just interested as a
writer and as a reader assomeone who's interested in
complicated stories of the waysthat that that found families
can hurt each other, uh, youknow that that led the closeness
(27:24):
and vulnerability, um that thatyou don't you don't have to be a
biological family of origin toReally do a number on somebody
but then you're also you're kindof getting at the fact that one
of the One of the conflicts inthe latter half of the book is
that this, love triangle is,very complex, kind of, like,
sort of polyamorous and sort ofnot a relationship, that they
(27:47):
start to have differences ofopinions about whether to have a
child.
And, kind of what I wasinterested in there was the ways
that, these characters likemaybe radical life choices in
politics maybe don't necessarilyprotect them from disagreements
and from from also likedifferent different ideas of how
(28:07):
radical to be and what beingradical as a family might mean
Just like the idea that theseare folks that might have made a
choice Made a choice at onepoint in their lives that they
thought would protect them fromcertain Existential And then 10
years goes by and did it, or isit in fact maybe a little bit
more complicated than that?
(28:29):
So I think it was, it wassomething that I was interested
in telling a story that takesplace over this long.
Like you talked about it thatmany That we have so many queer
stories that are like coming outstories or coming of age
stories, and then it sort ofmaybe ends with the character
being like 17 and ready to starttheir life or something like
that.
So I was interested in like,okay, like what if now this
character is 54 and like thingshave changed and we've got
(28:51):
different priorities ordifferent conflicts coming up.
Brett Benner (28:54):
I dunno if I can Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
And how it cha and, and, and howwe just change as people and,
how what we want changes.
Yeah.
Um.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (29:01):
And how much more complicated that is if
there are three people in therelationship and, and three
different opportunities forconflict.
Brett Benner (29:10):
Exactly.
What you've actually written isa warning against threupelism.
It's
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (29:17):
not a primer.
Brett Benner (29:20):
Yeah, no, not at all.
Not at all.
How to share a lot of money withyour throuple and thrive.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (29:27):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (29:28):
Starting a business with your loved ones.
I'm so curious.
This is just that's not evenreally book related, but it's
just mostly because I'm thinkingabout the capitalism thing and
the current state of our world.
And just your thoughts of thispullback of the DEI stuff.
And, I'm just thinkingspecifically really of Target,
which always seemed to me,Progressive but I'm also very
(29:51):
aware of the whole idea ofcompanies that, lean into, pride
month, for example, or, blackhistory month or any of these
things.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (30:00):
I think it makes sense that that comes
up reading this book.
It certainly came up for mewriting it, uh, that there are a
lot.
I mean, this is a book that'svery much about capitalism and,
identity, capitalism andcreativity.
One way I talk about it is thatthis is kind of a book about
three different people who aretrying to figure out whether a
job can love you back.
(30:20):
And we're trying to figure outthe limits of trying to define
success and self worth within aframework of capitalism.
Like, how productive are you?
How much money are you making?
How much power do you have overothers?
Um, and that's kind of how theseindividual characters experience
it.
But yeah, to tell It occurred tome first as like a fun joke,
(30:45):
like, because we see these likecorporate responses during pride
month of this very, let's becomevery like meme ified as we all
try to like survive it and getthrough it, kind of like, hey
gay! I started, like, I wasthinking of it as like a
different type of story aboutqueerness and capitalism and
(31:05):
like the idea of this joke thatwhat if this What if this was
the origin story of one ofthese, huge, corporate monoliths
that is this very, kind of,like, marketing, manipulative,
force.
But to me, it, like, a lot ofthings, I guess, about this
book, it was both a joke andkind of dark and intense,
because Realistically, all ofthese companies, you know,
we're, we're started by people,individual people and are run by
(31:28):
people.
And so these, these decisionsare all being made, uh, in a, in
a fairly calculated way.
Um, so yeah, I don't know.
There's no, I don't have a, it'slike so big and messy and
thorny.
And I think the book is theattempt to, to start asking
questions and to start thinkingabout it, but yeah, sure.
Um, it's definitely a huge partof what's going on.
Brett Benner (31:49):
Not giving anything away, and certainly
we're not going to givespoilers, but your arc of each
of these characters, did youknow early on where you were
going to end up with everybody,or was this something that
surprised you as you wentthrough?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (32:02):
That's a really good question, and well
asked in a way to not revealanything before we end up,
Radion.
I think it was somewhere inbetween.
That I sort of had, a certainidea, like about the scope and
scale of the story.
I was like, okay, this is goingto be like a lifetime story.
We're, in it for the long haul.
Like this is a, this is anarrator who knows.
(32:24):
Who knows everything, But, thenthat started to raise a
question.
As I start, as I was writing, Iwas like, Well if your narrator
is omniscient, Like, you gottaend the book somewhere.
How do you choose when to writethe end?
When do we stop?
When do we let everybody gohome?
And that, forced me to reallythink about, whose story it was
and, how to define theparameters of the story.
(32:45):
How are we going to define theend?
If there is no like necessaryend to the to the narrator's
knowledge.
I don't know.
I'm speaking very vaguelybecause I don't want to.
Brett Benner (32:54):
No, you're doing and you're doing very well.
And I will just say I thought Ithought it was pitch perfect.
I really did.
I really I loved it.
Um, and I thought it wassummarized and wrapped up in
such a great way that not onlyspoke very truthfully to the
characters that you had alreadymet, but, uh, yeah, it's a
(33:14):
great.
exit
Olivia Wolfgang-Smit (33:16):
appreciate that.
I do think it will becontroversial.
Brett Benner (33:18):
I'm sure, I'm sure, and some people might want
something more succinct.
But I, I thought it reallyspoke, especially in terms of
the characters, to everythingthat we had learned about them
previously and who they are.
I
Olivia Wolfgang-Smit (33:31):
appreciate that.
Brett Benner (33:32):
Well, um, the book is fantastic.
so please get it and buyindependent if you can.
It's really, a treat.
I so appreciate you being heretoday and congratulations I
can't wait to see what you comeup with next.
If you're a staying in the past,if you're moving ahead a little
bit, but, you're just a delightto talk to.
(33:53):
So thanks again for being here.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (33:55):
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been great.
Before we start our conversationtoday.
Hey everybody.
It's Brett and welcome orwelcome back to another episode
of behind the stack.
Wow, we're into February.
I don't know about you, but Itruly feel like that was the
longest year.
In one month, I hope you all areholding up.
I hope you all made it through.
Okay.
I hope you found plenty of booksto read on a side note, I don't
(00:21):
know if any of you are, TVwatchers or streamers, but one
thing that we started to watchjust past week, and it's really
enjoyable.
It's on Hulu.
Uh, it's called paradise.
Really.
Good show.
I don't really want to tell youtoo much about it.
It's a really good cast withSterling Brown and James Marsden
and Julianne Nicholson, who isjust incredible.
(00:42):
But if you like a good thrillerthat is twisty, definitely,
definitely, definitely checkthis out.
And there's only been threeepisodes up so far, so you can
totally catch up.
All right.
Before we start with our guesttoday.
I wanted to shout out a fewbooks that are also coming out
on this date that lookinteresting to me.
The first is Glyph by Ali Smith.
(01:04):
This is the first of a two bookseries.
It sounds almost a littledystopian about two teenage
siblings in a world that's asinister version of our own
where citizens deemedundesirable are labeled
unverifiables.
So, that's the first.
The next one It's called Isolaby Allegra Goodman, about a 16th
(01:28):
century French noblewoman andher lover who are abandoned on a
Canadian island in Goodman'shistorical novel, and how they
survive.
It looks great and it's anincredible cover.
Memorial Day by GeraldineBrooks.
This is a nonfiction book aboutthe death of Geraldine Brooks
husband, Tony Horowitz.
And how she got through thegrieving process.
(01:49):
She moved to a remote islandnear Tasmania and this memoir is
basically how she got throughit.
TJ Klune's The Bones Beneath MySkin, which if I'm not mistaken,
this is an older book thatthey're reissuing.
But it's about a young manwho's.
Parents are dead.
His journalism career is inshambles and he arrives at his
(02:12):
family's old vacation cabin,hoping to escape, but instead is
greeted by a strange little girland a wounded man who holds him
at gunpoint.
And soon Nate found himselfcaught up in a web of car
chases, government conspiracies,and alien encounters.
All wrapped around aheartwarming story of love and
found family set in the 1990sand TJ Klune is notorious for
(02:33):
his great found family stories.
Then this other nonfiction book,which I started and just put it
down and I really want to comeback to, which is called
Shattered by Hanif Qureshi.
Qureshi is a British writer whofell and injured himself in 2022
while he was in Rome.
And when he came to, he wasalmost completely paralyzed.
So this.
(02:54):
is a memoir of his recovery,filled with dark humor and
musings on his past and on manyof life's unpredictable events.
And then the last thing I wantedto talk about was Bibliophobia
by by Sarah Shahaya.
this is such an interesting kindof hybrid of memoir and litcrit.
Sarah Shahaya basically wasstruggling with depression and
(03:19):
It follows that journey while atthe same time discussing the
books in our lives that arebasically ruiners.
They're the books that you can'tget out of your head, that make
you think about things totallydifferent, that, You're not able
to let go.
You have to have conversationsabout it with other people.
It, it, it changes the way youpossibly will think about
(03:41):
things.
One of mine, I can tell you outof the gate is a little life,
which I read when it first cameout and it's still, it's
something that I think aboutregularly, but I'm about halfway
through this book.
It's, it's not very big.
It's incredibly interesting.
And for anybody who is a.
(04:01):
reader You should definitelycheck this out.
It's really cool.
And then the last book, outtoday is, our guest on the show,
Olivia Wolfgang Smith and herbrand new book, Mutual Interest.
It's really fantastic.
Such a fun read, creative, laughout loud, funny, moving.
(04:23):
Well, let me tell you a littlebit about Olivia.
Olivia Wolfgang Smith, her debutnovel, Glassworks, was long
listed for the Center forFiction and the VCU Cabal First
Novel Prizes and named a BestBook of the Year by NPR, Apple,
and Good Housekeeping.
She's a 2024 New York statecouncil on the arts, New York
foundation for the arts fellowin fiction, and she lives in
(04:46):
Brooklyn with her partner.
So enjoy this episode of behindthe stack.
You
I'm so happy to have Olivia Wolfgang Smith here
today with her beautiful book,Mutual Interest, thank you.
For being here,
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (05:04):
thank you so much for having me.
Brett Benner (05:05):
One of the things just to dive right in.
I wondered if you have anelevator pitch for the book?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (05:09):
Oh, this is good.
I should be practicing itanyway.
I describe it as a queer EdithWharton pastiche.
That's like my super shorthandversion of it.
So we're in New York city at theturn of the 20th century.
Okay.
And, uh, this is about a lesbianand a gay man.
Those are the labels they wouldprobably use today.
Who have a lot of their ownpersonal and professional dramas
(05:31):
that they bring to gettingmarried, to one another.
And then they kind of loop in athird partner, both for a
business venture and sort of tobe part of their romantic and
domestic life.
That's my, that's, that's myattempt at an elevator pitch.
Brett Benner (05:45):
That that was very concise and fantastic.
Um, you nailed it.
Just from the get go, I love thetitle because it had so many
meanings, beyond, sexuality and,the whole lean into capitalism
and business.
was that something that cameright away?
You knew that this was going tobe the title?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (06:04):
Um, that's a really good question.
Actually, for the whole timethat I was writing this book, I
was calling it the syndicate.
Which kind of was doing similarthings in my head.
I was like, this is a word thatdescribes these people's, like,
romantic and sexual lives andpersonal lives as well as their
business life.
and that came from an EdithWharton, short story called The
(06:24):
Other Two.
which is about a man who,accidentally makes friends with
both of his wife's, And like, hedescribes them several times in
this, like, tone of greatanxiety as a syndicate, that he
and the two ex husbands, havingthis, Mutual interest in this
woman.
We were thinking through as wekind of brought the book into
(06:46):
life of being like, okay,Syndicate sounds like a John
Grisham novel.
If you don't know what it'sabout, you're going to see it on
the shelf and maybe not, not seeown drawing room novel of
manners, romance, love story.
Um, so we were trying to thinkof other, other terms that
conveyed the same thing.
So.
Long answer to your question, ithasn't always been mutual
interests, but it has alwaysbeen, clear that the title of
(07:09):
this book would have to besomething that described all the
weird, multivalent levels ofthis relationship that's at the
center of it.
Brett Benner (07:17):
and before, before we get into that relationship,
I, I want to talk about, cause Ilove the third person narration
in this, for any of ourlisteners or viewers who are,
you know, pop cultureenthusiasts, it leans into the
Bridgerton of it all.
And I loved it so much becauseit lends itself to having so
(07:38):
much humor and just thecommenting on, what's happening.
Was that something you, again,wanted to do right away or has
it found itself?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (07:46):
Oh yeah, that was definitely like from
the get go, like the firstthing.
And yeah, Bridgerton and thisbook are definitely having some
of the same kinds of fun withsome of the same tropes of
these, like, like this kind ofstyle.
It's typical of sort ofhistorical novels of this, like
very omniscient, very intrusivenarrator, that has like a lot
(08:09):
of, Social commentary and like,kind of affectionate, like,
judgment of the characters.
So yeah, that was like, baked infrom the very beginning.
I started the, like, very firstdrafting of what became this
novel, was just like,experimenting with that voice.
that level of narrative.
My, my first book was very, veryclose third person.
Like, I was always very tied toone character at a time.
(08:32):
And I, what I found was that itwas like so much fun to be able
to, to be able to write this waywith a character that knows
everything, a narrator thatknows everything.
So yeah, I couldn't, couldn'tstop once I had started.
Brett Benner (08:43):
Did you have a, did you have a specific voice in
your head?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (08:46):
Asking me this, I've been starting to get
a question, just like from allsorts of people, like who is the
narrator?
Um, and so maybe that is likethe Bridgerton question, I guess
that's coming into it.
Brett Benner (08:55):
No, it is.
Well, I think it is because itsuddenly be like, you know, the
reveal of like, you know, Ohdear reader, you know what I
mean?
Is it, is Julie Andrews.
Yeah.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (09:04):
Yeah.
This, this narrator, and theyalso uses the royal we, um, from
time to time.
Yes.
And so yeah, I've had, I'vegotten started to get questions
about like who the narrator is.
Is it me?
Like, it's kind of interestingto see what pronouns people
choose to, like, use for thenarrator a little bit.
I find that to be, I kind oflike it being an open question.
(09:25):
I think that, there is a, thereis a true omniscience to this
narrator, I was thinking a lotas I read this book about, like,
queer community and, the sortof, mutual archival project.
And that's who I think of as theimplied narrator.
As much as I was thinking of it,the question, I love the
question and it fascinates mebecause it is not something I
(09:47):
was thinking about as I waswriting it.
I didn't have, like, a onesecret person in mind that this
narrator was.
Brett Benner (09:53):
But you didn't hear it a specific way, like
female or male, or was itsomething, or was it just
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (09:59):
I truly didn't.
Interesting.
Yeah, I truly didn't, and Ithink that, um, I sort of, it's
a, it's a wonderful thing torealize in the moment of getting
the question, because I thinkthat it's so easy to be overly
self conscious as a writer andto sort of, for me, I should say
it's easy for me to be overlyself conscious especially with
something that is so, um,stylized as this kind of
(10:20):
narration, I sort of am like,oh, thank goodness.
I didn't even realize I wasescaping this high concept, uh,
you know, thing that I think Ithink if I had had a specific
voice in mind, in terms of aspecific person, it might have
weighed me down.
Or stuck me, like if it hadbeen, if it had been a woman, I
might have been stuck more in acertain character's perspective.
(10:41):
If I had added that, like, Ithink that it allowed, allowed
like a true fluidity that Ididn't even, I wasn't even
conscious of it, that I was,that I was
Brett Benner (10:50):
doing.
I would love to, Sit in a roomof people who have read the book
and pull everyone and and say,was the narrator for you a male
female?
What was the voice?
I would just be fascinated tohear how people perceived it
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (11:05):
because it
Brett Benner (11:05):
was for me.
It was very much a woman.
And I'm not going to lie.
I did slip into Julie Andrews alittle bit, but I, you know,
because I just felt this kind ofproper, um, all knowing British
woman, but I, I am so curioushow other people hear that
voice.
I
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (11:22):
think it's fair.
It is fair to say that.
Of the three main characters, ifit's any one's book, it's
Vivian's book, like, but, but,so it does make sense.
If I had to, if I had to pick,like, now that I, now that I
know that I want to be, I wantto be stubborn and not pick, but
I, but I did.
Like, um, it certainly, thebook, like, belongs to her as
much as it belongs to everyone.
(11:43):
And the narrator does have anawareness of marginalized
people.
Characters experiences that doesnot really sure that is maybe
fits more to being a femalevoice than a male But
Brett Benner (11:56):
And also slightly modern as well, which is
interesting almost a modernsensibility looking at this So
you said about it being firstand foremost a Vivian story.
Is that where you started withthis?
Was she the kind of impetus?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (12:12):
yes and no, actually the, the, the
impetus was sort of, so theother two characters are, are
Squire and Oscar, who are these,these sort of two, I don't know
if I don't, hapless might be toounkind a word for them, but
these other two, central figuresfor the book, and they're based
on one iota of real historicaltrivia, um, which is that,
(12:33):
Proctor and Gamble, WilliamProctor and James Gamble,
Historically were, businessrivals, were professional
enemies before they gottogether.
One of them was a candle maker,one of them was a soap maker.
And they were in competition forlike the raw materials of both
candles and soap at the timebeing made out of.
Animal fat, um, tallow.
They were in competition forthis limited resource.
(12:55):
So they hated each other.
and then happened to marry intothe same family.
And then had a common father inlaw who sort of like banged
their heads together and waslike, you, why are you fighting?
You should go into businesstogether.
I happened to learn that inpassing and I was like, that is
so fascinating.
It's the senior, but like, Iwould, I need.
I need more.
I had some scripts notes forreality.
(13:16):
I was like, I need them to fallin love.
I need them to like this to belike a true partnership and I
need it to be, I need there tobe a more fascinating figure who
is sort of pulling the strings,of them getting together.
So it's a very roundabout answerto your question that Vivian,
Vivian sort of came last.
But.
She was the first moment that IStarted writing a story in my
(13:40):
head right like like so so theidea of these two men Was what
like first piqued my interest?
But then when it became the bookwas what was the idea Vivian she
sort of catalyzed it into astory
Brett Benner (13:52):
It's so interesting.
The kind of family they make upvery quickly.
It's, it's almost, it remindedme a little bit of Noel Coward's
design for living.
And this everything from theoutside and anyone looking at
this.
These people would assume thatthis one was a couple and, you
know, these other two werepartners.
But what's actually going onbehind closed doors.
(14:16):
I just loved it.
And it also speaks so much tothe idea of, found family
because all three of thesecharacters, as you learn in the
book are all outcasts in someways.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (14:27):
Yeah, sure.
Brett Benner (14:27):
What I love about Vivian is she's incredibly
strong.
She's so far ahead of her time.
She's shrewd, she's practical,she's incredibly smart.
She's almost the epitome of, ifyou can lock up capitalism in a
person she is.
That thing, Can you talk alittle bit about how you, you've
switched up the gender roles ina brilliant way where you've
(14:51):
kind of taken the woman and madeher the strong, aggressive,
business minded, and you'vedomesticated the two men and
almost put them in this, uh, Youknow, domesticated story about,
uh, well, two men.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (15:06):
Yeah, I think that, I mean, Vivian's
situation is, is, yeah, she's,you're right.
She's a true capitalist.
And in the sense, partly thatshe's a true.
Individualist.
I think that that's somethingthat from what we see of her
origin story or her childhoodand her upbringing that there
was like a survival tactic, inher family of origin.
(15:28):
and I think that that's just avalue system that she brings to
her adult life as well.
And, I think that, For all threeof these characters, they're all
very, um, let's say driven bytheir inner children, if that
makes sense.
By like, by, by wounds of earlylife.
So that it happens to fall alongwhat maybe we would still
(15:51):
consider atypical genderstereotype lines now.
And certainly we're, uh, 20thcentury when these characters
are living.
Which kind of makes them, uh.
a little bit freer almost in thesense that they're so outside
the bounds of what their societyis even Looking for that they
can kind of hide in plain sighta little bit but yeah that that
(16:13):
we have by chance the two malecharacters, oscar and squire are
In very different ways, peoplewho are, looking for, like, this
kind of, settled domestic love,and that Vivian is someone who
is not looking, not looking forsafety there.
She's looking for a differenttype of safety.
Brett Benner (16:29):
It's interesting because, even their view in
terms of sex.
Oscar seems initially to have somuch kind of shame towards his
sexuality, his proclivities and,and Vivian revels in it.
And I love that so much.
I just love she's looking for itand she knows where to find it
and she knows how to spot itand, um, and what that means.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (16:49):
Part of that too, is how.
Homosexuality was spoken about,at that time in this very
fascinating way where it waslike very clear that and that
male homosexuality was a thing.
And like that there would be,you know, it was like
criminalized and there were veryserious like repercussions, but,
and then like, Lesbianism was alittle bit more nobody really
(17:11):
knew.
Did it exist?
What was it?
How could you tell if it washappening?
And so like that, that some ofthat sort of shame and fear on
Oscar's part is like a very realLike society was very willing to
tell him what was wrong and whatwould happen to him if he was
caught as opposed There's alittle bit more Latitude to
operate in for Vivian than forOscar.
Brett Benner (17:32):
Yeah, it's such an interesting thing and I don't
know how much of that's changedSadly or whatever because I
Always just say people had aeasier time with gay men if they
said, okay they they Havehardcore sex and that they're
promiscuous.
And that was easier.
I think that's easier for peopleto get their head around than
Two men.
(17:52):
having a loving relationship orintimacy.
I have to ask this about Squirecause he's such an interesting
character.
Spectrum.
Yes.
Did you view him as on thespectrum?
I mean what we now know isprobably someone on the
spectrum.
They wouldn't have known that.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (18:05):
Yeah, I think that that's a good way to
put it that if Squire wereliving in the world today, he
would probably be diagnosed ason the autism spectrum.
I think that a lot of thingsAbout this book are about these
kinds of like labels andidentities and the fact that
people who have theseexperiences and live These
descriptions have existed for aslong as people have existed And
(18:28):
that that kind of thesedifferent identities are very
differently conceptualized andvery differently treated both
like internally and externallythroughout time but and in
different eras, Folks of all ofthese types, like moving through
the world and like looking forunderstanding, including from
their loved ones has been aconstant this whole time.
Brett Benner (18:48):
Completely.
Are you a history buff?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (18:50):
Um, yeah, it's very, very much a lay
person.
So I have no credentials.
I love reading like a lot.
It's mostly like pop histories.
Like I'm going to museums.
I'm starting, I'm, I'm levelingup through the process of being
a historical novelist.
I've gotten a lot better atresearch, which has gotten me
the more you learn, the betteryou get at learning, but Yeah,
(19:12):
it is, it's, it is lifelong, butvery amateur.
Brett Benner (19:16):
Interesting.
Okay, so my other question, wasabout this business that they go
on to, which could follow inline with Procter Gamble, with
the scent and the candlebusiness I was so curious, are
you someone who's interested inthat?
Are you someone who's a, A centperson A are you that type of
person
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (19:34):
this is the first time I've gotten this
question, um, and I've like,it's, uh, inevitable and great
to get it.
But so, so yeah.
The business that they're in ispersonal care is like the term
for it.
at at this time in history,like, cosmetics, uh, soap
lotion.
They do scented candles inthere.
Um, and I've taken a lot of.
Liberties with, like, how abusiness like this might be run
(19:56):
and, like, where it's likely tohave been based.
but again, this is another areain which I am an enthusiastic,
layperson, amateur.
I have no, I kind of had theidea when I started writing this
book of like, I want to be into,like, I've, one of my dreams is
to someday, is to have, like, a,Like a signature perfume, the
way that I associate with, withlike my grandmother, like it's
(20:18):
like there's this certain scentor like a signature lip color,
like certain kind of things thatyou just associate with certain
people, um, I've never, I havenever been a person like that,
and I had that idea when Istarted writing this book, like,
If I'm going to write a bookabout three people who run a
perfume and cosmetics business,I'm going to come out of it
knowing exactly like what mysignature scent is going to be.
(20:40):
Hasn't happened.
If you have any suggestions, Iam like ready for them.
I swear to God,
Brett Benner (20:45):
I pictured you, I literally pictured you at the
cosmetics counter of some, youknow, department store trying on
a million different scents andspraying it to get the scents or
just trying to break down themakeup of each individual thing
because it's so specific in thebook.
Yeah.
And what they're using, um, atthe very least, I imagined you
writing with a lavender candle.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (21:05):
Yes.
Well, and I'm not going to lie.
I have had special, certainspecial candles for, for
different times of working onthis book.
Yes.
I think it's, I learned enoughto know how much I don't know.
Like I think that I learned howcomplex like this, this business
and this art and science is butI understand how complicated it
is.
I'm a little bit more forgivingof myself for not having more of
(21:26):
an instinct of like what theperfect scent on the occasion
would be.
Sure.
Yeah.
Uh, there are some characters inthis book who are less talented
than others and I kind of fallmore on their side of the
equation.
Brett Benner (21:38):
As someone who is queer today, and you were, doing
the research for this book, wasthere stuff that surprised you,
either in a positive or negativeway, that you wouldn't have
thought of before going into it?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (21:49):
Um, I don't know if surprise is the
word, but I did find doing someof the research for this book
very, uh, therapeutic.
As a queer person living in NewYork City, the city I was
writing about.
In the moment that it is.
Again, like, we know that queerpeople have always existed, and
always found community, andfound joy, and, you know, been
(22:10):
more than, items in a policeblocker, uh, in the newspaper,
but it is It's really like ajoyful thing to like read and
find evidence of those things.
I've had some conversations withfolks that I just encourage
anyone who's even a little bitcurious about that to look into,
um, your local history if that'swhat interests you, but that
(22:31):
it's truly a joy, um, to, to dothat kind of research into the
archive.
Brett Benner (22:36):
Yeah, it is fascinating.
And what I find, especiallyinteresting is the way that
people found each other,throughout it.
I read that one of the thingsthat you talked about was how
The M.
Forrester's Morris was very,influential on your work.
Um, oh my gosh, and I have toshow you this.
I thought of you because when Iwas reading all this.
(22:59):
Faber is publishing these newversions
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (23:02):
of
Brett Benner (23:04):
their illustrated editions of E.
M.
Forrester's books.
And, I just thought they're,they're so beautiful, but it was
interesting because I opened upthe first page and it says in
here, content warning.
This edition is the originaltext from 1971.
It may contain language that'soffensive to some readers.
Oh,
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (23:19):
wow.
So
Brett Benner (23:20):
I have no idea what that is yet, but I'm so
curious.
Oh, my gosh.
And, I remember this was becauseI'm a little bit older than you.
I remember this was one of thefirst Queer books are books with
queer content that I ever read.
And I remember sitting like Igrew up in Pittsburgh.
I remember sitting on the trainto go on down into town and I
had a paperback copy of it.
(23:41):
And I was so terrified thatsomeone would know what it was
just by the cover and that thatI was reading it and what that
meant.
But finding this, like, key intosomething that I couldn't fully
understand, I just related toit.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (23:57):
Yeah, that resonates with me.
I've heard a lot of people have,like, really similar experiences
with that book.
I think that there's something,like, I think that that goes
back to the 19 teens people havebeen having that experience with
that book in a way that's reallyincredible.
Brett Benner (24:11):
It did make me wonder as I was reading this, is
it important for you in terms ofyour writing and these
characters you're creating tocreate a world that shows queer
people in a positive light orthat have some sense of maybe a
happy ending?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (24:29):
Yeah, and that is a really, there are a
lot of like big lessons ofMorris and that is one of them.
That's something that reallysticks with me about it that it
was so important to Forrester tohave that.
to have a happy ending, I thinkthat, I felt very in communion
with queer readers and writersfrom before me and after me,
partly because I have this likehistorical novel with this high
(24:51):
omniscient, like narrator thatkind of has this sort of implied
knowledge of both, The ancientpast and to some extent, to some
mysterious extent, the future,so, uh, yeah, I think that it
was an important part of thisbook to me to, not deny any kind
of darkness, but to have thisnot be a tragic story, I wrote
(25:11):
this book because I love, andhave always loved, novels of
manners.
Like, this kind of, this sortof, like, type of, of book, and
this type of love story.
And, wanted it to feel like agift for other people who also
love this kind of book, and whomaybe also have felt like a wish
that there were more queerstories in this genre and I
certainly didn't want it to be agift that then turned into like
(25:34):
getting the rug pulled out fromunder you about like that kind
of, that kind of joy.
Um, so yeah, that, that'scertainly something that was on
my mind.
Brett Benner (25:41):
Yeah, and I love it because, because of
everything you just said.
First of all, I love the timeperiod.
The way you describe it, justthe New York City, all of it,
the interiors.
It's so beautiful.
It's, it's, it's almost weirdlylike a fairy tale.
No pun intended.
So much of so much of what seemsto get published sometimes.
And it absolutely.
deserves and needs a place areeither coming of age stories or
(26:04):
queer stories that have moretragic bends to them.
And so that's another reason whyI just love this so much because
they're flawed characters.
They're very human characters.
Um, but their sexuality is justa component of who they are,
which is just a large part ofthe larger fabric of the whole
thing.
And, and I really, really,really, really appreciated that.
(26:24):
Can you talk a little bit aboutthis idea of found family, with
the three of them, even going asfar as, and this is not really a
spoiler, but kind of aheteronormative idea about
connecting and then children andall that kind of idea, but can
you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (26:38):
Yeah, sure.
Um, so I think that, yeah, thereare certain things about found
family and chosen family that Ithink are kind of on the surface
here that we've got like thesepeople who are literally like
kind of.
running away from home in somecases, being kind of these
transplants, getting almostkicked out of home in other
cases, and sort of startingover, finding each other, like
forming this literal, like, youknow, domestic, partnership.
(27:02):
I think that part of what I'm,was interested in is the way
that found family.
We hear it so often, referred toin a book.
purely positive light of likeall of the great things found
family can do for you, and soi'm also just interested as a
writer and as a reader assomeone who's interested in
complicated stories of the waysthat that that found families
can hurt each other, uh, youknow that that led the closeness
(27:24):
and vulnerability, um that thatyou don't you don't have to be a
biological family of origin toReally do a number on somebody
but then you're also you're kindof getting at the fact that one
of the One of the conflicts inthe latter half of the book is
that this, love triangle is,very complex, kind of, like,
sort of polyamorous and sort ofnot a relationship, that they
(27:47):
start to have differences ofopinions about whether to have a
child.
And, kind of what I wasinterested in there was the ways
that, these characters likemaybe radical life choices in
politics maybe don't necessarilyprotect them from disagreements
and from from also likedifferent different ideas of how
(28:07):
radical to be and what beingradical as a family might mean
Just like the idea that theseare folks that might have made a
choice Made a choice at onepoint in their lives that they
thought would protect them fromcertain Existential And then 10
years goes by and did it, or isit in fact maybe a little bit
more complicated than that?
(28:29):
So I think it was, it wassomething that I was interested
in telling a story that takesplace over this long.
Like you talked about it thatmany That we have so many queer
stories that are like coming outstories or coming of age
stories, and then it sort ofmaybe ends with the character
being like 17 and ready to starttheir life or something like
that.
So I was interested in like,okay, like what if now this
character is 54 and like thingshave changed and we've got
(28:51):
different priorities ordifferent conflicts coming up.
Brett Benner (28:54):
I dunno if I can Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
And how it cha and, and, and howwe just change as people and,
how what we want changes.
Yeah.
Um.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (29:01):
And how much more complicated that is if
there are three people in therelationship and, and three
different opportunities forconflict.
Brett Benner (29:10):
Exactly.
What you've actually written isa warning against threupelism.
It's
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (29:17):
not a primer.
Brett Benner (29:20):
Yeah, no, not at all.
Not at all.
How to share a lot of money withyour throuple and thrive.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (29:27):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (29:28):
Starting a business with your loved ones.
I'm so curious.
This is just that's not evenreally book related, but it's
just mostly because I'm thinkingabout the capitalism thing and
the current state of our world.
And just your thoughts of thispullback of the DEI stuff.
And, I'm just thinkingspecifically really of Target,
which always seemed to me,Progressive but I'm also very
(29:51):
aware of the whole idea ofcompanies that, lean into, pride
month, for example, or, blackhistory month or any of these
things.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (30:00):
I think it makes sense that that comes
up reading this book.
It certainly came up for mewriting it, uh, that there are a
lot.
I mean, this is a book that'svery much about capitalism and,
identity, capitalism andcreativity.
One way I talk about it is thatthis is kind of a book about
three different people who aretrying to figure out whether a
job can love you back.
(30:20):
And we're trying to figure outthe limits of trying to define
success and self worth within aframework of capitalism.
Like, how productive are you?
How much money are you making?
How much power do you have overothers?
Um, and that's kind of how theseindividual characters experience
it.
But yeah, to tell It occurred tome first as like a fun joke,
(30:45):
like, because we see these likecorporate responses during pride
month of this very, let's becomevery like meme ified as we all
try to like survive it and getthrough it, kind of like, hey
gay! I started, like, I wasthinking of it as like a
different type of story aboutqueerness and capitalism and
(31:05):
like the idea of this joke thatwhat if this What if this was
the origin story of one ofthese, huge, corporate monoliths
that is this very, kind of,like, marketing, manipulative,
force.
But to me, it, like, a lot ofthings, I guess, about this
book, it was both a joke andkind of dark and intense,
because Realistically, all ofthese companies, you know,
we're, we're started by people,individual people and are run by
(31:28):
people.
And so these, these decisionsare all being made, uh, in a, in
a fairly calculated way.
Um, so yeah, I don't know.
There's no, I don't have a, it'slike so big and messy and
thorny.
And I think the book is theattempt to, to start asking
questions and to start thinkingabout it, but yeah, sure.
Um, it's definitely a huge partof what's going on.
Brett Benner (31:49):
Not giving anything away, and certainly
we're not going to givespoilers, but your arc of each
of these characters, did youknow early on where you were
going to end up with everybody,or was this something that
surprised you as you wentthrough?
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (32:02):
That's a really good question, and well
asked in a way to not revealanything before we end up,
Radion.
I think it was somewhere inbetween.
That I sort of had, a certainidea, like about the scope and
scale of the story.
I was like, okay, this is goingto be like a lifetime story.
We're, in it for the long haul.
Like this is a, this is anarrator who knows.
(32:24):
Who knows everything, But, thenthat started to raise a
question.
As I start, as I was writing, Iwas like, Well if your narrator
is omniscient, Like, you gottaend the book somewhere.
How do you choose when to writethe end?
When do we stop?
When do we let everybody gohome?
And that, forced me to reallythink about, whose story it was
and, how to define theparameters of the story.
(32:45):
How are we going to define theend?
If there is no like necessaryend to the to the narrator's
knowledge.
I don't know.
I'm speaking very vaguelybecause I don't want to.
Brett Benner (32:54):
No, you're doing and you're doing very well.
And I will just say I thought Ithought it was pitch perfect.
I really did.
I really I loved it.
Um, and I thought it wassummarized and wrapped up in
such a great way that not onlyspoke very truthfully to the
characters that you had alreadymet, but, uh, yeah, it's a
(33:14):
great.
exit
Olivia Wolfgang-Smit (33:16):
appreciate that.
I do think it will becontroversial.
Brett Benner (33:18):
I'm sure, I'm sure, and some people might want
something more succinct.
But I, I thought it reallyspoke, especially in terms of
the characters, to everythingthat we had learned about them
previously and who they are.
I
Olivia Wolfgang-Smit (33:31):
appreciate that.
Brett Benner (33:32):
Well, um, the book is fantastic.
so please get it and buyindependent if you can.
It's really, a treat.
I so appreciate you being heretoday and congratulations I
can't wait to see what you comeup with next.
If you're a staying in the past,if you're moving ahead a little
bit, but, you're just a delightto talk to.
(33:53):
So thanks again for being here.
Olivia Wolfgang-Smith (33:55):
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been great.
Before we start our conversationtoday.
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