November 18, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with Quiara Alegria Hudes to discuss her fiction debut, 'The White Hot'. They discuss childhood imagination and when writing started for her. Why Daphne Rubin Vega was the best choice for the audio recording, Siddhartha and story book archetypes, Jagged Little Pill, and the differences between being a novelist vs a playright.
Quiara's website:
https://www.quiara.com/
Quiara's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/quiaraalegria/
The White Hot playlist:
https://open.spotify.com/show/21rEwC8CJyHViJI0fc4Iro?si=vVt_XOgsQSKHbQ5CtsLMLQ
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack, where today
I am sitting down with KiaraAllegria Hudis for her brand new
book, the White Hot, A littlebit about Kiara.
She is the Pulitzer Prizewinning playwright of water by
the Spoonful and the Musical inthe Heights, which won the Tony
(00:21):
Award for best musical and whichshe adapted for the screen, her
memoir, my broken Language waslong listed for the Andrew
Carnegie Medal.
Her essays have appeared in TheNew York Times, the Washington
Post, the Cut, the Nation andAmerican Theater Magazine.
She's co-founder with her cousinSean of the prison writing
(00:44):
program, emancipated Stories.
So I hope you enjoy this episodeof Behind the Stack.
I am just so thrilled to behaving you sit down with me
today to talk about your justgorgeous, gorgeous book, the
White Hot.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (01:05):
I'm excited to, to chop it up.
Brett Benner (01:06):
So before we get into the book, I, I always love
to to delve into, delve into thewriter a little bit.
So you were born inPhiladelphia?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (01:13):
Yes.
Brett Benner (01:14):
And you had a Jewish father and a Puerto Rican
mother.
And you were raised in WestPhilly.
Whereabouts in West Philly wereyou raised?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (01:21):
So I was raised on the 800 block of St.
Bernard Street.
It, it's about a block from 49thand Baltimore is like the
biggest nearby intersection'cause it's a tiny wisp of a
street.
One little one way.
One one lane street.
Brett Benner (01:35):
My sisters lived forever in Haverford.
But it's funny, we'll get intothis'cause I grew up in
Pittsburgh, so, which oh, ofcourse is a very integral part
of the book.
And Ohio Pao Pao meant somethingto me getting into that as well.
And so I was like, wow, I knowall these places, which was
really cool.
Now wait, were you an onlychild?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (01:54):
I was an only child until I was 11, and
then I had siblings.
So I have the experience ofboth, which is wonderful.
I have the kind of.
Um, play with myself, use myimagination, experience of being
an only child, and then alongcame my little siblings and they
were my baby dolls.
Brett Benner (02:12):
Yeah.
One of the things that I lovedreading about you is that you
said from a very early age youwere already writing plays.
Yes.
Do you remember, do you rememberanything that you would've
written or what it would evenhave been about?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (02:23):
Oh, yes.
Plays.
Poems, um, rock albums.
I was filling up stadium arenaswhen I was five years old.
You should know this.
And, I dunno, I think, I thinkthe earliest fully realized
musical I wrote was called MyBest Friend Died.
Wow.
The title song in it was My bestFriend died.
And as it, as you can imagine,it was full of drama.
Brett Benner (02:45):
Wow.
Wow.
You were ahead of it.
I read what somewhere once thatthey said, I think it was one of
those, like, you know, what isthat book?
Um, something about an umbrella.
I don't remember.
It was like a self-help book,but it, it talked about, If you
wanna know what you should do,you should look back at the
things you did as a child andthat will inform what you should
be doing now.
(03:06):
So you were clearly informedright from the beginning with
everything that you should havebeen doing later.
So I love that.
Yeah, I know
Quiara Alegria Hudes (03:14):
pen and paper was my, like GI Joe, it
was my Barbie dolls like that.
That was my toy.
The the pen and paper.
Brett Benner (03:22):
So I assume then that you were a big reader as
well.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (03:24):
That came later.
You know, it's weird.
I, I learned to read at a veryyoung age.
I, I think I was like four whenI learned to read and my dad
just had some sort of notion.
This made me some sort ofincredible reader and so.
Alice in Wonderland and theHobbit and books that like I, I
couldn't decipher as a4-year-old.
And so actually I did not lovereading until I was in high
(03:47):
school and I encountered realliterature that I could
understand.
But what I did love when I wasyounger was the technology of a
book, like pages, paper, turningthat was to me.
The coolest thing in the world.
And so what I would do with itwas, is I would write, I would
write with books, and, and thenthe, the reading came later.
Brett Benner (04:08):
Wow.
That's so fascinating.
I know your aunt was aninfluence in your life too,
because she, she wrote music.
She would do all the music forthe Big Apple circus.
Correct.
And so your original, your, youroriginal BFA was in music?
Yes.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (04:21):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (04:21):
Piano and, and music composition.
And she taught you how to readmusic.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (04:25):
Yes.
But before that, she taught mehow she was not trying to teach
me how to read too early.
She was trying to teach me howto just let go and live in the
experience of music.
And I really think that was mytraining as a writer.
It's like, this has no literalmeaning.
Um, you are going to just feelthis.
And she took me to like.
(04:46):
Reggae concerts when I was tooyoung and I was getting high off
the secondhand smoke.
She was also a punk rockmusician and she would take me
to her gigs at CBGB and um, andthen I'd like turn her pages on
the bandstand at the big AppleCircus while the clown Act was
rehearsing.
So it was a pretty immersiveexperience.
I mean, I remember being.
A preteen.
I don't remember exactly how oldor young, but I went, she took
(05:08):
me to see EDA James in concertat like some noisy bar and eda
James pointed me out and shesaid, you're too young to be
here.
You're too young for this music.
And I still think, and I thinkit's so much in the White hot,
which I know we're gonna talkabout, but like I still connect
as a writer and as a reader withstories.
Not just on the level ofmeaning, but really it's like.
(05:30):
Press play on a good album.
I wanna be like overcome by likea sonic world and just kind of
an emotional experience.
Brett Benner (05:37):
Yeah.
Well there is a, two things thatstruck me so much about the book
is, is its musicality in termsof the way that you write and
there is a lyrical quality to itand, and it's poetic.
So much of it, so much of thewriting is so beautiful.
And I'll tell you, like I readthe book.
Like three weeks ago I was on aflight and I, so I, it was the
(05:59):
perfect thing'cause I kind ofjust locked in and did it as one
experience, which was almostcathartic in its rawness.
But to kind of refresh for this.
I had the audiobook of it, andso
Quiara Alegria Hudes (06:14):
how is it?
I haven't, oh my
Brett Benner (06:15):
God.
Oh my God.
First of all, I, you know, Iknow that you, it's Daphne Rubin
Vega for our viewers and ourlisteners who is just so
incredible anyway, and I knowyou guys have a longstanding
relationship and she's done alot of your plays, and so you
have that kind of workingrelationship.
It's amazing.
It's amazing.
And I find, and I really, I haveto tell you like.
(06:36):
I loved having this kind ofduality of an experience of
reading your words on the page,and then later hearing them come
back to me with her urgency andher emotion, and it brought it
to life in a different way.
But one of the things that Idid, I have to tell you when I
was going through it.
And, I was thinking just interms of what you're talking
(06:57):
about in terms of music and theexperience and feeling like that
is, I started to play, and hebecomes, you know, there's a big
part of this.
We can get into Charles Mingus,the, that album while I just had
it under while I, like on mycomputer while I had it.
Daphne in my ears saying yourwords.
Holy shit.
It was incredible.
(07:17):
And I would highly recommendthis all immersive experience
for anybody doing this isplaying the Charles Mingus album
underneath a very little, but,but yeah, she does an incredible
job, as you would expect, andit's great and it's very much,
it feels, it feels verytheatrical.
It almost feels in the reading,like, uh, it could be a, a one
person show.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (07:38):
Okay.
Well, I love that I have
Brett Benner (07:38):
to
Quiara Alegria Hudes (07:39):
like jump in here if we're talking about
Daphne in the audio book.
I haven't even heard it yet.
But, um, she, we've collaboratedfor so long.
Um, I know what she brings to mywork and she is the most rock
and roll person I've ever met inmy life.
And I don't mean rock and rollas like a marketable commodity,
(08:01):
I mean as like a state of beingof a soul.
Mm-hmm.
She is.
Just kind of naturally wildchild, kind of stylish, but like
kind of a mess at the same time.
And she's just got this rawspirit.
(08:22):
She just, she's a misfit, andyet she's gorgeous.
You know, she's all of, she's sorock and roll and, I really
wanted her voice for April Sotobecause, You mentioned Mingus
and, and what happens in thebook?
You know, April Soto's our, ourmain character in the book,
she's 26 years old, she's neverleft Philadelphia.
(08:45):
She lives in a household of allwomen.
It's four generations.
She's 26.
She has a 10-year-old daughter.
So she, you know, got pregnantwhen she was 16.
Like she's never even really hada teenage experience.
She has like such a small life.
And what happens in the book is.
She finds a bigger life to kindof fit her bigger self, and one
(09:07):
of those things is she hearsjazz for the first time.
She hears Charles Mingus for thefirst time and she hears Jimi
Hendrix for the first time.
So I thought, I need a voice onthis audio book.
That can capture that visceralenergy of Charlie Mingus, of
Jimi Hendrix.
Um, so yes, go by the audiobook.
Everyone listen to the audiobook.
Brett Benner (09:25):
I wanna say to you too, congratulations.
'cause I know the white hot gotstar reviews from both Kikis and
Publishers Weekly.
I just wanted to take a momentto, to list just a few of your
awards and plot.
Its because it's so amazing you,the Pulitzer Prize and Drama,
the Tony Award For best musical,you've been a Pulitzer finalist
and drama Twice you a Tonynomination.
For Best Book of a Musical, youare an Andrew Carnegie medal
(09:46):
Long list.
Pennsylvania Governor's Award,the Olo Award for outstanding
Achievement and playwriting.
Lucille Ortel Award foroutstanding Musical Out Outer
Critic Circle Award foroutstanding musical Best musical
New York Magazine, book of 2021.
NPR, national Book Review andmore.
It, it, the list goes on and on,and so kudos to your body of
(10:11):
work.
You know, the lead line wasobviously, oh, she wrote the
book of In the Heights, but thendigging and how much.
Work you have.
It's, it's incrediblyimpressive.
So, congratulations and Iimmediately ordered your
biography'cause it looks sofantastic.
So I can't wait to read that aswell.
Enjoy.
One of the other things that Iloved, it was in another
interview that I saw PaulaVogel, who I know like was a
(10:35):
mentor of yours at Brown, saidthat you are very much taking to
page from August Wilson on.
She focuses on her ancestors andcreating the canon, the American
landscape with a Puerto Ricanvoice, and I loved that so much.
I thought that was soincredible.
I
Quiara Alegria Hudes (10:49):
think it's really true.
And, and actually there's alittle nod to August Wilson in,
in the white hot.
This is really inside baseball.
I don't even know if it's anEaster egg.
It's so subtle and I, it wasalmost, um.
Done subconsciously, but Irealized it when I was editing.
Oh, there's, there's a partwhere April, she takes her first
walk in the woods.
It's, it's her series of firsts,right?
(11:10):
She has a kind of delayed comingof age when she's an adult.
She goes into the woods for thefirst time.
She's never been in thewilderness before.
She sees her first shootingstar.
She's woefully unprepared.
She's wearing her work clothes,so she's wearing sandals and
skinny jeans and a sequin.
Shirt from work so her feet arecovered.
(11:31):
Was like, she wasn't planningany of this.
She just left home.
Kind of in a temper tantrum, buthere she is in the woods and she
has to find some drinking waterbecause she's gone off course
and she's kind of lost.
And um, she does find somedrinking water.
She says it tastes like, I can'tremember what coin I use, but it
tastes like some sort of likenickel, a shiny nickel.
And I realized when I wasrereading it, I said, oh, that's
(11:52):
August Wilson.
That's Joe Turner's come andgone.
Um, because.
You know, you're shining likenew money at the end of Joe
Turner's coming on, which is oneof my touchstone favorite,
favorite plays.
And, um, yeah, I mean, I, I wasvery moved by August Wilson's
project to create this centurycycle, a hundred years of black
life in Pittsburgh.
(12:14):
And think, I think he did thatvery consciously as a choice.
And I think he also did that asnaturally as breathing in water
because that was his world andthat's what excited him.
And so both of those things are,are true for me also.
It's, you know, Phil Rican life.
Uh, I didn't see it on thegrowing up, you know, so I'm
(12:35):
kind of creating my own littleniche on the bookshelf there.
But it's really American lifeand it's, it's really
Philadelphia life.
It's really women's life.
Um, the circles kind of rippleout from there.
Brett Benner (12:48):
Yeah, it's funny 'cause I was thinking about
earlier when you said in, interms of reading at a young age,
that you couldn't, it was a, Ithink the word used is something
like, I, you couldn't connector, and I wonder, had there
been, you know, stories that youidentified, if that would've
pulled you in.
You know what I mean?
And I keep thinking of theimportance of seeing yourself on
a page and finding yourself.
(13:08):
'cause I've always said topeople, like, they're like,
well, I'm not much of a reader.
And, and my response is thatit's always been like, you just
haven't found the thing that.
Interest to you, you haven'tfound the thing that can pull
you in.
That's what I believe.
And I believe anybody could be areader if they have a key to
something that says, what, whatis their life or what, where do
they find themselves?
To me, you've given such a goodkind of intro to the book.
(13:29):
And one of the things that, theonly other thing I guess I would
add, and one of the things Iwanna get into is that this
woman, April in a, in a just amoment.
Kind of walks out of her lifeand, and leaves her, her
daughter, which is the, youknow, kind of the central point
of the book.
Going back to what I was sayingto you before about the audio
versus reading it, I had,highlighted all these sections
(13:51):
in the book when I was readingof just stuff that I thought was
so beautiful and the way thatyou wrote things.
So beautiful.
And interestingly, when I waslistening to it.
I would be like, oh my God, thatsounds so amazing.
I have to write that down.
Let me find that section of thebook.
And it points that I had alreadyhighlighted so they were
consistent.
And I was like, well, at leastI, at least, I at least it
(14:12):
really resonated.
But one of those, the, the, thefirst thing was she's talking
about the white hot and what thewhite hot is.
She talks about the white hotbeing her armor and also her
undoing.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat particular thing, the white
hot.
I, I think it's, I, because Ifind that word in that, kind of
the white hot, it's such aninteresting thing that I think
(14:34):
so many people grapple with in,in different ways.
But, what brings it on forpeople?
I certainly know as a parent,I've certainly been there, you
know, I've certainly seen that,but if you could talk about it
for April and what that is
Quiara Alegria Hudes (14:49):
Love, the quote that you chose.
That it's, she thinks of it asher, her armor and her undoing.
You know, she grew up in, inNorth Philly, she was always
getting in school yard fights,kind of gifted young student,
but always getting in trouble.
And, it's just this anger wouldwash over her and she couldn't
control it.
And so she'd always end up inthe principal's office and it
(15:11):
would feel like electricity,almost like lightning striking
her.
And so she thinks of it as herwhite hot, you know, people say
about anger that you're seeingred, but for her it was this
experience of almost likeblinding mm, white light in her
eyes.
Um, and she'd kind of losereality.
And then after a fight, she'dhave this experience of like,
total, the pendulum swing in theopposite direction, like
(15:32):
complete crash.
So ashamed, so embarrassed.
Realizing she might have hurtsomeone realizing she got hurt
and she hadn't even noticed.
And she comes from this family.
She lives, as I mentioned, this,four generations.
It's her daughter, her, hermother, and her grandmother.
They came from Puerto Rico.
She's the first generation bornhere, and they're unequipped to
deal with their frustrations,with their stress, with their
(15:55):
anger.
And they have been therecipients of violence, and they
have not known how to respondand how to protect themselves.
And so it's this white hot, thisarmor.
She's protecting herself.
She's protecting her heart,she's protecting her integrity.
But she protects too hard, youknow?
And, and so I.
She's an adult now, and she'snot quite like having these
(16:16):
scraps on the school yardanymore.
But the problem is herdaughter's starting to, and she
sees her daughter fighting.
She sees her daughter getting introuble for being so smart too.
And she's realizes like, mydaughter's 10, she's about to
inherit this same cycle.
It's fine for me, but I don'twant that to be her future.
You know?
And so she just freaks out.
She takes off, she hits theroad, and she has to figure out
(16:39):
what kind of life.
If I could choose a life, whatwould I choose?
And if I could choose mydaughter's life, what would I
choose?
And as we know from the firstfew pages of the book, so it's
not a spoiler, she chooses toleave her daughter.
That's the choice she makes.
And then she, the whole book isa, the letter she writes to her
daughter when her daughter turns18.
They haven't seen each other inyears saying, you don't, you
(16:59):
don't have to forgive me forthis choice I made.
I'm not even asking yourforgiveness.
Just hear me out.
As a woman, I've learned a fewthings.
You're about to be a woman.
Maybe some of what I learnedwill be useful for you.
Including the white hot, likehere's where our anger comes
from.
You ready for this kid?
And she tells her daughter.
Brett Benner (17:15):
There's also a mantra that she continually says
almost as if to stave off whatshe knows is inevitably coming,
which is she keeps saying, deadinside.
Dead inside, dead inside.
Which, which also is, I'm notgonna give any spoilers, but has
a incredible kind of arc witheven that mantra that comes
later in the book.
She talked about this earlier.
Kind of escape route is throughthe forest, which felt almost,
(17:36):
story and almost felt like afairy tale.
And, going from this kind of.
Urban jungle that she's livedher whole life to literal jungle
of, of nature.
And there was a quote that Ilove where she said the first
theater was a forest packed withmonologues of midnight survival.
(17:57):
I love that.
And just the images thatconveyed.
But the creatures in the forest,the danger, the the absolute
beauty and also theunpredictability and not
knowing.
What's gonna happen next?
I thought was just sophenomenal.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (18:12):
Thank you.
I mean, it is storybook.
So I, I was working with a kindof archetypal tale, which is
Siddhartha.
It's a book I read in highschool.
It's a book April Reads whenshe's in high school.
And I think it's like classicassigned literature for those
who don't know what, it'sbasically the Buddha story
written by Herman Hessa, youknow?
April reads it and she's like,this is beautiful.
(18:35):
The Buddha, like Siddharthagoes, he's walking by the river,
like he's learning from thetrees and she's enraptured by
his tale of Enlightenment, butshe's also pissed and calls BS
on this.
How easy he left, you know, heleft his newborn baby, he left
(18:56):
his wife so he could go findenlightenment.
And when I read Siddhartha whenI was in high school, I was
like, I wish my mom could justlike leave us.
My mom was a very spiritualperson.
I wish she could just leave herdomestic reality behind and go
into the woods and find God.
But she had, while she was doingthe dishes, you know, like she
(19:17):
didn't get, so I was, I wasworking with is kind of my love
letter too, and like rebellionagainst the Siddhartha story.
Um, and so yeah, that's there isthat.
Archetypal storybook thing whereit's like he goes into the
woods, he renounces the materialworld and and she does that too.
Wow.
And, and it ends by a river,which Siddhartha also, he
(19:39):
becomes the assistant to theFerryman at the end and he
crosses the river, and the riverbecomes his teacher.
And so I, and um, the white hotby the Skoki River and in
Philly, and she has her ownmoment of enlightenment.
Brett Benner (19:52):
I was gonna ask you about this earlier.
So your mom is a, is a, a kumipriestess, correct?
Yes.
And was that from yourchildhood, right from the
beginning, or did, was thatsomething she discovered later
in your life?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (20:04):
That was later so that, that started
maybe around like when I was inlate grade school, early middle
school.
Um, but she was a deeplyspiritual woman all my life.
Like she.
Would tell me her way ofteaching me Spanish in an
English household, um, was bytelling me quote unquote ghost
(20:27):
stories from her childhood.
But not, not like Casper, thefriendly ghost kind of thing.
Like, here's what happened whena dead person came to me in my
town of Puerto Rico where I grewup.
You know, here's how I.
Addressed to that, and I wasterrified.
Like she would tell me thesestories about talking to spirits
when she was a kid.
(20:47):
So this has been, she sees theworld differently than I do, and
so I was the kind of likebeneficiary, my world expanded
by hearing about how she seesit.
Every time she would pray itwould be like in a different
language or using different.
I mean, we wanna talk aboutgender pronouns.
Like there were different genderpronouns for God, like in all
the different prayers growingup.
(21:08):
You know, it was so multi-faith.
Um, just her roots and herpractice.
And then she was crowned jungle.
Around like when I waspre-adolescent.
And so that ceremonial practicebecame part of our lives.
I was went to Quaker meetingbecause she ran a lot of youth
programs around the country forteenagers of color, through
(21:30):
American Friend ServiceCommittee.
So it was a very interfaith.
Childhood, which I loved.
And one of the things I've lovedabout moving into books from
playwriting is I can write aboutthe spirit in a different way on
the page because I'm not tryingto present what's happening.
I'm trying to present someone'sexperience of it.
Brett Benner (21:46):
Mm-hmm.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (21:48):
If I present what's happening on
stage and what's happening issomeone getting touched by God,
then the audience is foldingtheir arms going, but I don't
believe in that, so what am Isupposed to do?
But if I'm writing on the pageabout April Soto had this
experience, she felt like shewas levitating.
Whether or not she was actuallylevitating is actually not the
point.
Her experience of that is whatthe point is.
Then you're allowed to still beatheist or cynical reading it,
(22:10):
and you can still take away themeaning that she had this
experience.
Brett Benner (22:15):
Right.
You're able to empathize.
You're able to, if, if, if, ifit's all worked, you're with
that character anyway.
I also think it's such adifferent thing with a play.
You write the words, you have abelief, you'd understand the arc
of these characters if come fromyou, and yet it becomes such a
shared experience when an actorand a director become involved
(22:36):
and they're bringing their own.
Ideas, visions, personalitiesalso to those things where
writing is such a, it's trulyjust yours until it becomes a
shared experience with thereader in terms of the way they
experience, it's, uh.
It's interesting.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (22:51):
Yeah.
No, part of why I, I wrote mostof you know, 98% of this book is
the letter.
That's why it's short.
'cause it's the letter shewrites her daughter when her
daughter turns 18.
But part of the, the choice towrite a letter is to put it in
whatever person is she's talked,she's addressing you, you, you.
Mm-hmm.
I guess that's second person.
(23:12):
You, you, you, and it's thisfeeling of like, I'm whispering
in your ear.
I'm right here with you.
It's a one-to-one experience.
Whereas of course on stage whereI worked for 20 years and I'm
still working, you have to speakto the back row.
It's not whispering in someone'sear.
It's I'm, I'm on stage and theback row might be 150 feet away
from me and they have to connectwith what I'm doing.
(23:33):
So it's very different scale ofexperience.
Brett Benner (23:36):
Yeah.
Do you view yourself now inlight of your upbringing as a
spiritual person?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (23:41):
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, I don't have, I'm notgifted in the way that my mom
is.
Um, but yes, I am spiritual andreligious, multi-faith.
I mean, I still go to Quakermeeting.
every once in a while I have, Istill have my altar and my, I'm
not wearing them now.
So, yeah, it's, it's a part ofthe practice.
It's part of my life.
Brett Benner (24:00):
Mm-hmm.
I love that.
So later in the book, she meetsthis man, Kamal, and, um, they
kind of forge this connection,but this is where the, the music
part, we talked in the verybeginning about Mingus and Jimi
Hendrix, and this just.
Incredible sequence, which is,it's such a love letter to
musicians and music and, and,and knowing your background.
(24:21):
It's so beautiful.
I wrote,, this one quote downthat when she says about hearing
Mingus for the first time, shesaid, listen, feels like too
small of a word.
For what she was experiencing.
And I, I loved that so much.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (24:36):
Like swim would be too small a word.
If you get stuck in the undertowand you can't find the surface
of the water and you can't comeup for a breath, like swimming
is not like the right word.
And that is when you hear analbum.
One of the fun things aboutwriting, she meets this man
Kamal in the woods, who goes tothe woods to meditate.
They hit it off.
She goes back to his place andhe's an audio file and he's
(24:57):
like, I gotta play.
You don't know mgu.
You don't know Jimi Hendrix.
Like, he's gotta play hisfavorite albums.
And so we get through, by theway,
Brett Benner (25:03):
just the fact that he's playing albums, let's just
say that It's not like a cd.
He's old school.
He is putting on an album withan album whole thing.
So he's, which is
Quiara Alegria Hudes (25:09):
snobby about it, you know?
Yes.
Brett Benner (25:11):
Which is how it's like, is Yes.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (25:13):
It's like kind of a, a expensive hobby of
his now, you know, part of thefun of writing that is this is
April's first time and.
We all have that experience.
It's like the first time youheard an album that became
meaningful for you forever.
So we get to encounter thisstuff with April for the first
time, even though we have likelyheard Jimi Hendrix, we have
likely heard Charles Mingus and,and so it overwhelms her because
(25:35):
here's this.
Young woman, she's never heardit be, she's never heard jazz.
And, and, and her first jazz isMingus.
And Mingus is like, it'sraucous.
It's pretty wild.
He's grappling and, and some ofit's like really nasty and
thorny and it's just, it's, italmost sounds like a fight in
sonic form.
And it's beautiful and she hearsit and she almost is like.
(25:57):
First of all, she's embarrassedat how limited her knowledge is.
She realizes for the first time,damn, I never even heard this
before.
Apparently this is stuffeveryone knows, but she also
kind of retrospectively is like,oh my God, this music would've
been really helpful when I was akid.
And the only way I knew how todeal with my anger was to lash
out.
Well look at Mingus like he'slashing out.
(26:19):
You know, on the bass, he'shaving the drummer lash out.
He's having the pianist lashout, and then they resolve it
and it's got dignity.
And they should have just playedthis for me in high school,
rather than sending me todetention all the time.
It would've been more helpful,you know, and it's hot too.
It's sexy and it kind of likehelps, you know, set the mood
for, for the two of them as acouple too.
Brett Benner (26:37):
Do you listen to music while you write?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (26:39):
Yes.
Though the definition of writemight, it depends on, on how
technical we're getting aboutwhat it means to write, but for
me, writing involves the act oflike having a pen or pencil in
hand or typing and.
Like literally doing nothing andwalking, like those are the
(26:59):
activities.
And so music is very much partof like sitting around doing
nothing and very much part ofwalking.
It becomes part of the practice.
And then I kind of pin hone inon an album or some songs, and
then that starts to inform thestructure too, where it's like,
okay, I've, you know.
The drums just went crazy.
I just had my wild, big,aggressive solo, like what kind
(27:20):
of song would come next on thealbum?
I need to like take it down anotch kind of thing.
So it helps inform my narrativestructures too.
Brett Benner (27:28):
Well, I'm also just wondering in, in terms of
a,'cause it talking about, likewhen I'm hearing you say is it's
an organic experience of ifyou're walking, you're listening
to music and all these thingsbegin to kind of pull and your,
your mind begins to.
Uh, you know, flood with ideasor thoughts that you then begin
to coalesce and put down.
Yes.
So, I'm curious in conjunctionwith that, but also a little
(27:51):
separate, what was the impetusfor the white hot?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (27:54):
Okay, so it was two things really.
It started, it started in 2012.
when, it's funny'cause I was,it's, I was listening to Jagged
little Pill and, hmm.
That music doesn't, didn'treally end up informing too much
of the book's aesthetics, but itwas that kind of like match that
lit the, the spark, um, that litthe firework or whatever.
(28:16):
Because I was listening to it,it's like Alanis morrisette, you
know, there's a lot of rage,right?
She's angry as hell.
She was like, kind of likeslutty, right?
There was the lyric about, I'llgo down.
Did she go down on you in atheater?
Like Yeah, it it, she was a hotmess and was.
(28:37):
Virtuo with the lyric writingaround it.
And then there's a song thatit's like she's curious about
God and it's kind of funny andhas a really light touch.
Like those things coexisting.
She's very playful in some ofthe songs.
Mm-hmm.
Love song.
It's like I'm head over feet,you know, it's, it's playful.
And so I was like, I want acharacter like that.
I want a character who's a hotmess, who's pissed.
(29:00):
Who is gonna call you out and isgonna name names and like might
come and wreck your home, likesto pray and has a good sense of
humor and can have a light touchabout things.
So that, that was the impetus.
And, and actually I don't thinkreading the Ex, the White hot is
the experience of listening tojagged little pill, but there's
still some little vestiges inthere.
(29:21):
Right?
I was like, I'm gonna have, Iwanted to write an anti-hero.
I was like, she is, she's gonnasteal a car.
The first draft, my editor waslike, really?
Is she really stealing the cars?
Like she's gonna steal the car,gonna break into a home.
She might wreck the home.
She breaks into TBD.
No spoilers here, but, and sosome of those are right out of
Alanis Morissette songs.
(29:41):
You know, there's, she, she hasa song called My House.
I don't think it's on the jaggedlittle.
She breaks into a home.
It's in her fantasy.
I think it's in her imagination,whereas it's in my real
narrative.
So that was 2012.
And, and I actually startimagining, um.
Alanis Mo said, has this song,thank you.
It's not on, it's not on JaggedLittle Hill.
Brett Benner (29:57):
Yes.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (29:58):
This kind of spiritual, like living
gratitude.
You know, Oprah wakes up and shesays, I'm grateful to be alive.
Kind of like the gratitudething.
And I was, I was thinking aboutthis world and I start imagining
April sil though I startedimagining her journey and what
does it look like when she getsmad?
And I'm imagining this momentthat this, this stuck with the
book.
This is the first thing in thebook.
I really, really knew.
(30:18):
They're fighting around thedinner table.
They're all women.
Not a man in sight in thishouse.
The didn't food gets thrown,plates get thrown.
And then what does the elder do?
They're, they just don't knowhow to handle their anger.
What does the, the elder do inthe home?
She, she grabs a broom.
She starts trying to sweep updinner and it's very hard to
sweep cooked rice off a floor.
'cause it just gets like dummyand glbb.
(30:40):
And so I imagine our protagonistwatching this and being like,
I'm gonna fricking lose my mindlike.
Sweeping is violence and shegotta get out of there.
She got, she gotta get outtathere like the house is burning
down kind of thing.
And then really that thisrealization, she's watching her
elders sweep this kind of, thegrotesque domesticity of it.
She's like, she has thisrealization for generations.
(31:01):
The women in my family have beensweeping themselves, their,
their trauma, their beauty,their desires.
That's, this is what I've beentrained to do.
And my daughter is 10 and mydaughter's about to pick up that
room.
That room is about to be mydaughter's future as she takes
off.
It's like that do or die moment.
So that was, that's early, earlyon 2012.
And then everything start,that's kind of the sun and then
(31:22):
all the planets of the rest ofthe narrative start to revolve
around that.
right.
In a book.
More enjoyable than doing say aplay.
The, the, the coolest thing inthe world about being a
playwright is you're creatingjobs.
And this is kind of thepragmatist in me, like I really.
If I have a day where I wake upand I'm like, what am I doing?
Why am I doing this?
I could just look back and belike, I created a lot of good
jobs for actors where when Istarted, like there were still a
(31:45):
lot of made roles.
There were still a lot of, youknow, drug dealer number one
roles, and I was like, no, I'mgonna create meaty.
Human beings for these actors.
And so I, I'm really proud ofthat.
I love that you, you, youcreated, you create jobs, you
create a community with theactors and the collaborators.
The, the thing about writingbooks is like the timeline.
(32:08):
A play comes and goes and noone.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's like, oh, thatplay's not happening anymore.
So there's no way for people tosee it.
Books stick around, they lastforever.
And so it's okay if someonedoesn't pick up this book for 20
years and finds meaning in, init, then like things are gonna
happen with it that I'm notgonna be aware of and like I
love that.
Brett Benner (32:25):
Yeah.
One of the things, just by doingthis, I know this is gonna sound
so obvious, but one of thethings about doing this podcast
and just kind of reading moreintentionally is you do, we
talk, we collective, we talk alot about.
You know, why representation isso important, but it, but it
really is because I also thinkit, not only does it show you
another person, another life,another thing that you not
(32:46):
hadn't even thought about, butit also really connects by the
universality of the wholeexperience.
I look at April and think notjust how many women, but how
many people have gotten to thatpoint of like, where am I and
what's happening and, and, andthe ability to say.
I've gotta take a hold ofsomething for a specific reason,
or to save someone, in thiscase, her daughter, to save her
(33:06):
daughter and herself.
It's, it's really beautiful.
I'm really excited for you.
The reactions to the book are,are universally, incredible.
I'm so,, excited for people todiscover her and her journey,
which is.
Frankly mythic to me, socongratulations.
And I absolutely.
I love this cover.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (33:26):
It is so beautiful.
They, it's, it's kind of good,like you remember, um, scratch
and Sniff stickers.
It's got a kind of like,
Brett Benner (33:35):
oh my God.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (33:36):
Scratch it and sniff it and it
Brett Benner (33:37):
Oh, kind of you mean the texture of the book off
the jacket.
You know what I love so much.
I, I love that leg so muchbecause it's not perfect.
Yes, that's it.
The little
Quiara Alegria Hudes (33:49):
cellulite dimple here, and I just think, I
literally think my mom's leg, mymom's leg didn't actually look
like this, but there's somethingabout that.
That cellulite there that I'mjust like, it's a safe place.
It's a safe place to land.
And then we have a little kindof cherub, like baby reaching up
towards the sky.
So yeah, it's, it's a beautifulitem.
Brett Benner (34:08):
it's a sexy cover.
It's also a rock cover and it'sjust, it's unvarnished.
That's how I'd say it.
It's an unvarnished cover and I,and it's, it's so perfectly
encapsulates.
What's inside, but please,people buy independent if you
are able to buy independent.
Again, a big plug for the audiobook and the incredible Daphne
(34:28):
Rubin Vega.
This has been so fantastic and,and, I so appreciate your time.
You've really written somethingthat's just absolutely stunning.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (34:35):
Thanks, Brett.
I appreciate it.
And, and you know, extra pointsfor extra credit for being able
to listen to Mingus as you readit.
That's, that's incredible.
Brett Benner (34:43):
Well, I have to say, I, I, it was, it was low,
so it was very much like, everynow and then it would pop in and
I'd be like, okay, gotta turnthis down a little bit.
But yeah, you should, throwtogether a like a playlist for
this thing
Quiara Alegria Hudes (34:54):
we have, we have a playlist.
Oh, you
Brett Benner (34:55):
do.
Totally do.
And I'll include it.
In the show notes for this, thatwould be great.
So people can just losethemselves.
Thank you again so much, Kiara.
And yes, I have included in theshow notes, the Spotify playlist
for the White Hot.
If you like today's episode orother episodes of Behind the
Stack, please consider likingand subscribing.
(35:15):
Another thing that would beincredibly helpful to me as we
almost wrap up this secondseason is if you could give the
show five stars and if you havethe time, possibly a review.
All of these things are reallyhelpful, so the show continues
to be found by other people, andI can continue to bring you all
(35:36):
conversations like this one.
Thank you so much and I will seeyou all next week.
Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack, where today
I am sitting down with KiaraAllegria Hudis for her brand new
book, the White Hot, A littlebit about Kiara.
She is the Pulitzer Prizewinning playwright of water by
the Spoonful and the Musical inthe Heights, which won the Tony
(00:21):
Award for best musical and whichshe adapted for the screen, her
memoir, my broken Language waslong listed for the Andrew
Carnegie Medal.
Her essays have appeared in TheNew York Times, the Washington
Post, the Cut, the Nation andAmerican Theater Magazine.
She's co-founder with her cousinSean of the prison writing
(00:44):
program, emancipated Stories.
So I hope you enjoy this episodeof Behind the Stack.
I am just so thrilled to behaving you sit down with me
today to talk about your justgorgeous, gorgeous book, the
White Hot.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (01:05):
I'm excited to, to chop it up.
Brett Benner (01:06):
So before we get into the book, I, I always love
to to delve into, delve into thewriter a little bit.
So you were born inPhiladelphia?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (01:13):
Yes.
Brett Benner (01:14):
And you had a Jewish father and a Puerto Rican
mother.
And you were raised in WestPhilly.
Whereabouts in West Philly wereyou raised?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (01:21):
So I was raised on the 800 block of St.
Bernard Street.
It, it's about a block from 49thand Baltimore is like the
biggest nearby intersection'cause it's a tiny wisp of a
street.
One little one way.
One one lane street.
Brett Benner (01:35):
My sisters lived forever in Haverford.
But it's funny, we'll get intothis'cause I grew up in
Pittsburgh, so, which oh, ofcourse is a very integral part
of the book.
And Ohio Pao Pao meant somethingto me getting into that as well.
And so I was like, wow, I knowall these places, which was
really cool.
Now wait, were you an onlychild?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (01:54):
I was an only child until I was 11, and
then I had siblings.
So I have the experience ofboth, which is wonderful.
I have the kind of.
Um, play with myself, use myimagination, experience of being
an only child, and then alongcame my little siblings and they
were my baby dolls.
Brett Benner (02:12):
Yeah.
One of the things that I lovedreading about you is that you
said from a very early age youwere already writing plays.
Yes.
Do you remember, do you rememberanything that you would've
written or what it would evenhave been about?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (02:23):
Oh, yes.
Plays.
Poems, um, rock albums.
I was filling up stadium arenaswhen I was five years old.
You should know this.
And, I dunno, I think, I thinkthe earliest fully realized
musical I wrote was called MyBest Friend Died.
Wow.
The title song in it was My bestFriend died.
And as it, as you can imagine,it was full of drama.
Brett Benner (02:45):
Wow.
Wow.
You were ahead of it.
I read what somewhere once thatthey said, I think it was one of
those, like, you know, what isthat book?
Um, something about an umbrella.
I don't remember.
It was like a self-help book,but it, it talked about, If you
wanna know what you should do,you should look back at the
things you did as a child andthat will inform what you should
be doing now.
(03:06):
So you were clearly informedright from the beginning with
everything that you should havebeen doing later.
So I love that.
Yeah, I know
Quiara Alegria Hudes (03:14):
pen and paper was my, like GI Joe, it
was my Barbie dolls like that.
That was my toy.
The the pen and paper.
Brett Benner (03:22):
So I assume then that you were a big reader as
well.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (03:24):
That came later.
You know, it's weird.
I, I learned to read at a veryyoung age.
I, I think I was like four whenI learned to read and my dad
just had some sort of notion.
This made me some sort ofincredible reader and so.
Alice in Wonderland and theHobbit and books that like I, I
couldn't decipher as a4-year-old.
And so actually I did not lovereading until I was in high
(03:47):
school and I encountered realliterature that I could
understand.
But what I did love when I wasyounger was the technology of a
book, like pages, paper, turningthat was to me.
The coolest thing in the world.
And so what I would do with itwas, is I would write, I would
write with books, and, and thenthe, the reading came later.
Brett Benner (04:08):
Wow.
That's so fascinating.
I know your aunt was aninfluence in your life too,
because she, she wrote music.
She would do all the music forthe Big Apple circus.
Correct.
And so your original, your, youroriginal BFA was in music?
Yes.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (04:21):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (04:21):
Piano and, and music composition.
And she taught you how to readmusic.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (04:25):
Yes.
But before that, she taught mehow she was not trying to teach
me how to read too early.
She was trying to teach me howto just let go and live in the
experience of music.
And I really think that was mytraining as a writer.
It's like, this has no literalmeaning.
Um, you are going to just feelthis.
And she took me to like.
(04:46):
Reggae concerts when I was tooyoung and I was getting high off
the secondhand smoke.
She was also a punk rockmusician and she would take me
to her gigs at CBGB and um, andthen I'd like turn her pages on
the bandstand at the big AppleCircus while the clown Act was
rehearsing.
So it was a pretty immersiveexperience.
I mean, I remember being.
A preteen.
I don't remember exactly how oldor young, but I went, she took
(05:08):
me to see EDA James in concertat like some noisy bar and eda
James pointed me out and shesaid, you're too young to be
here.
You're too young for this music.
And I still think, and I thinkit's so much in the White hot,
which I know we're gonna talkabout, but like I still connect
as a writer and as a reader withstories.
Not just on the level ofmeaning, but really it's like.
(05:30):
Press play on a good album.
I wanna be like overcome by likea sonic world and just kind of
an emotional experience.
Brett Benner (05:37):
Yeah.
Well there is a, two things thatstruck me so much about the book
is, is its musicality in termsof the way that you write and
there is a lyrical quality to itand, and it's poetic.
So much of it, so much of thewriting is so beautiful.
And I'll tell you, like I readthe book.
Like three weeks ago I was on aflight and I, so I, it was the
(05:59):
perfect thing'cause I kind ofjust locked in and did it as one
experience, which was almostcathartic in its rawness.
But to kind of refresh for this.
I had the audiobook of it, andso
Quiara Alegria Hudes (06:14):
how is it?
I haven't, oh my
Brett Benner (06:15):
God.
Oh my God.
First of all, I, you know, Iknow that you, it's Daphne Rubin
Vega for our viewers and ourlisteners who is just so
incredible anyway, and I knowyou guys have a longstanding
relationship and she's done alot of your plays, and so you
have that kind of workingrelationship.
It's amazing.
It's amazing.
And I find, and I really, I haveto tell you like.
(06:36):
I loved having this kind ofduality of an experience of
reading your words on the page,and then later hearing them come
back to me with her urgency andher emotion, and it brought it
to life in a different way.
But one of the things that Idid, I have to tell you when I
was going through it.
And, I was thinking just interms of what you're talking
(06:57):
about in terms of music and theexperience and feeling like that
is, I started to play, and hebecomes, you know, there's a big
part of this.
We can get into Charles Mingus,the, that album while I just had
it under while I, like on mycomputer while I had it.
Daphne in my ears saying yourwords.
Holy shit.
It was incredible.
(07:17):
And I would highly recommendthis all immersive experience
for anybody doing this isplaying the Charles Mingus album
underneath a very little, but,but yeah, she does an incredible
job, as you would expect, andit's great and it's very much,
it feels, it feels verytheatrical.
It almost feels in the reading,like, uh, it could be a, a one
person show.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (07:38):
Okay.
Well, I love that I have
Brett Benner (07:38):
to
Quiara Alegria Hudes (07:39):
like jump in here if we're talking about
Daphne in the audio book.
I haven't even heard it yet.
But, um, she, we've collaboratedfor so long.
Um, I know what she brings to mywork and she is the most rock
and roll person I've ever met inmy life.
And I don't mean rock and rollas like a marketable commodity,
(08:01):
I mean as like a state of beingof a soul.
Mm-hmm.
She is.
Just kind of naturally wildchild, kind of stylish, but like
kind of a mess at the same time.
And she's just got this rawspirit.
(08:22):
She just, she's a misfit, andyet she's gorgeous.
You know, she's all of, she's sorock and roll and, I really
wanted her voice for April Sotobecause, You mentioned Mingus
and, and what happens in thebook?
You know, April Soto's our, ourmain character in the book,
she's 26 years old, she's neverleft Philadelphia.
(08:45):
She lives in a household of allwomen.
It's four generations.
She's 26.
She has a 10-year-old daughter.
So she, you know, got pregnantwhen she was 16.
Like she's never even really hada teenage experience.
She has like such a small life.
And what happens in the book is.
She finds a bigger life to kindof fit her bigger self, and one
(09:07):
of those things is she hearsjazz for the first time.
She hears Charles Mingus for thefirst time and she hears Jimi
Hendrix for the first time.
So I thought, I need a voice onthis audio book.
That can capture that visceralenergy of Charlie Mingus, of
Jimi Hendrix.
Um, so yes, go by the audiobook.
Everyone listen to the audiobook.
Brett Benner (09:25):
I wanna say to you too, congratulations.
'cause I know the white hot gotstar reviews from both Kikis and
Publishers Weekly.
I just wanted to take a momentto, to list just a few of your
awards and plot.
Its because it's so amazing you,the Pulitzer Prize and Drama,
the Tony Award For best musical,you've been a Pulitzer finalist
and drama Twice you a Tonynomination.
For Best Book of a Musical, youare an Andrew Carnegie medal
(09:46):
Long list.
Pennsylvania Governor's Award,the Olo Award for outstanding
Achievement and playwriting.
Lucille Ortel Award foroutstanding Musical Out Outer
Critic Circle Award foroutstanding musical Best musical
New York Magazine, book of 2021.
NPR, national Book Review andmore.
It, it, the list goes on and on,and so kudos to your body of
(10:11):
work.
You know, the lead line wasobviously, oh, she wrote the
book of In the Heights, but thendigging and how much.
Work you have.
It's, it's incrediblyimpressive.
So, congratulations and Iimmediately ordered your
biography'cause it looks sofantastic.
So I can't wait to read that aswell.
Enjoy.
One of the other things that Iloved, it was in another
interview that I saw PaulaVogel, who I know like was a
(10:35):
mentor of yours at Brown, saidthat you are very much taking to
page from August Wilson on.
She focuses on her ancestors andcreating the canon, the American
landscape with a Puerto Ricanvoice, and I loved that so much.
I thought that was soincredible.
I
Quiara Alegria Hudes (10:49):
think it's really true.
And, and actually there's alittle nod to August Wilson in,
in the white hot.
This is really inside baseball.
I don't even know if it's anEaster egg.
It's so subtle and I, it wasalmost, um.
Done subconsciously, but Irealized it when I was editing.
Oh, there's, there's a partwhere April, she takes her first
walk in the woods.
It's, it's her series of firsts,right?
(11:10):
She has a kind of delayed comingof age when she's an adult.
She goes into the woods for thefirst time.
She's never been in thewilderness before.
She sees her first shootingstar.
She's woefully unprepared.
She's wearing her work clothes,so she's wearing sandals and
skinny jeans and a sequin.
Shirt from work so her feet arecovered.
(11:31):
Was like, she wasn't planningany of this.
She just left home.
Kind of in a temper tantrum, buthere she is in the woods and she
has to find some drinking waterbecause she's gone off course
and she's kind of lost.
And um, she does find somedrinking water.
She says it tastes like, I can'tremember what coin I use, but it
tastes like some sort of likenickel, a shiny nickel.
And I realized when I wasrereading it, I said, oh, that's
(11:52):
August Wilson.
That's Joe Turner's come andgone.
Um, because.
You know, you're shining likenew money at the end of Joe
Turner's coming on, which is oneof my touchstone favorite,
favorite plays.
And, um, yeah, I mean, I, I wasvery moved by August Wilson's
project to create this centurycycle, a hundred years of black
life in Pittsburgh.
(12:14):
And think, I think he did thatvery consciously as a choice.
And I think he also did that asnaturally as breathing in water
because that was his world andthat's what excited him.
And so both of those things are,are true for me also.
It's, you know, Phil Rican life.
Uh, I didn't see it on thegrowing up, you know, so I'm
(12:35):
kind of creating my own littleniche on the bookshelf there.
But it's really American lifeand it's, it's really
Philadelphia life.
It's really women's life.
Um, the circles kind of rippleout from there.
Brett Benner (12:48):
Yeah, it's funny 'cause I was thinking about
earlier when you said in, interms of reading at a young age,
that you couldn't, it was a, Ithink the word used is something
like, I, you couldn't connector, and I wonder, had there
been, you know, stories that youidentified, if that would've
pulled you in.
You know what I mean?
And I keep thinking of theimportance of seeing yourself on
a page and finding yourself.
(13:08):
'cause I've always said topeople, like, they're like,
well, I'm not much of a reader.
And, and my response is thatit's always been like, you just
haven't found the thing that.
Interest to you, you haven'tfound the thing that can pull
you in.
That's what I believe.
And I believe anybody could be areader if they have a key to
something that says, what, whatis their life or what, where do
they find themselves?
To me, you've given such a goodkind of intro to the book.
(13:29):
And one of the things that, theonly other thing I guess I would
add, and one of the things Iwanna get into is that this
woman, April in a, in a just amoment.
Kind of walks out of her lifeand, and leaves her, her
daughter, which is the, youknow, kind of the central point
of the book.
Going back to what I was sayingto you before about the audio
versus reading it, I had,highlighted all these sections
(13:51):
in the book when I was readingof just stuff that I thought was
so beautiful and the way thatyou wrote things.
So beautiful.
And interestingly, when I waslistening to it.
I would be like, oh my God, thatsounds so amazing.
I have to write that down.
Let me find that section of thebook.
And it points that I had alreadyhighlighted so they were
consistent.
And I was like, well, at leastI, at least, I at least it
(14:12):
really resonated.
But one of those, the, the, thefirst thing was she's talking
about the white hot and what thewhite hot is.
She talks about the white hotbeing her armor and also her
undoing.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat particular thing, the white
hot.
I, I think it's, I, because Ifind that word in that, kind of
the white hot, it's such aninteresting thing that I think
(14:34):
so many people grapple with in,in different ways.
But, what brings it on forpeople?
I certainly know as a parent,I've certainly been there, you
know, I've certainly seen that,but if you could talk about it
for April and what that is
Quiara Alegria Hudes (14:49):
Love, the quote that you chose.
That it's, she thinks of it asher, her armor and her undoing.
You know, she grew up in, inNorth Philly, she was always
getting in school yard fights,kind of gifted young student,
but always getting in trouble.
And, it's just this anger wouldwash over her and she couldn't
control it.
And so she'd always end up inthe principal's office and it
(15:11):
would feel like electricity,almost like lightning striking
her.
And so she thinks of it as herwhite hot, you know, people say
about anger that you're seeingred, but for her it was this
experience of almost likeblinding mm, white light in her
eyes.
Um, and she'd kind of losereality.
And then after a fight, she'dhave this experience of like,
total, the pendulum swing in theopposite direction, like
(15:32):
complete crash.
So ashamed, so embarrassed.
Realizing she might have hurtsomeone realizing she got hurt
and she hadn't even noticed.
And she comes from this family.
She lives, as I mentioned, this,four generations.
It's her daughter, her, hermother, and her grandmother.
They came from Puerto Rico.
She's the first generation bornhere, and they're unequipped to
deal with their frustrations,with their stress, with their
(15:55):
anger.
And they have been therecipients of violence, and they
have not known how to respondand how to protect themselves.
And so it's this white hot, thisarmor.
She's protecting herself.
She's protecting her heart,she's protecting her integrity.
But she protects too hard, youknow?
And, and so I.
She's an adult now, and she'snot quite like having these
(16:16):
scraps on the school yardanymore.
But the problem is herdaughter's starting to, and she
sees her daughter fighting.
She sees her daughter getting introuble for being so smart too.
And she's realizes like, mydaughter's 10, she's about to
inherit this same cycle.
It's fine for me, but I don'twant that to be her future.
You know?
And so she just freaks out.
She takes off, she hits theroad, and she has to figure out
(16:39):
what kind of life.
If I could choose a life, whatwould I choose?
And if I could choose mydaughter's life, what would I
choose?
And as we know from the firstfew pages of the book, so it's
not a spoiler, she chooses toleave her daughter.
That's the choice she makes.
And then she, the whole book isa, the letter she writes to her
daughter when her daughter turns18.
They haven't seen each other inyears saying, you don't, you
(16:59):
don't have to forgive me forthis choice I made.
I'm not even asking yourforgiveness.
Just hear me out.
As a woman, I've learned a fewthings.
You're about to be a woman.
Maybe some of what I learnedwill be useful for you.
Including the white hot, likehere's where our anger comes
from.
You ready for this kid?
And she tells her daughter.
Brett Benner (17:15):
There's also a mantra that she continually says
almost as if to stave off whatshe knows is inevitably coming,
which is she keeps saying, deadinside.
Dead inside, dead inside.
Which, which also is, I'm notgonna give any spoilers, but has
a incredible kind of arc witheven that mantra that comes
later in the book.
She talked about this earlier.
Kind of escape route is throughthe forest, which felt almost,
(17:36):
story and almost felt like afairy tale.
And, going from this kind of.
Urban jungle that she's livedher whole life to literal jungle
of, of nature.
And there was a quote that Ilove where she said the first
theater was a forest packed withmonologues of midnight survival.
(17:57):
I love that.
And just the images thatconveyed.
But the creatures in the forest,the danger, the the absolute
beauty and also theunpredictability and not
knowing.
What's gonna happen next?
I thought was just sophenomenal.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (18:12):
Thank you.
I mean, it is storybook.
So I, I was working with a kindof archetypal tale, which is
Siddhartha.
It's a book I read in highschool.
It's a book April Reads whenshe's in high school.
And I think it's like classicassigned literature for those
who don't know what, it'sbasically the Buddha story
written by Herman Hessa, youknow?
April reads it and she's like,this is beautiful.
(18:35):
The Buddha, like Siddharthagoes, he's walking by the river,
like he's learning from thetrees and she's enraptured by
his tale of Enlightenment, butshe's also pissed and calls BS
on this.
How easy he left, you know, heleft his newborn baby, he left
(18:56):
his wife so he could go findenlightenment.
And when I read Siddhartha whenI was in high school, I was
like, I wish my mom could justlike leave us.
My mom was a very spiritualperson.
I wish she could just leave herdomestic reality behind and go
into the woods and find God.
But she had, while she was doingthe dishes, you know, like she
(19:17):
didn't get, so I was, I wasworking with is kind of my love
letter too, and like rebellionagainst the Siddhartha story.
Um, and so yeah, that's there isthat.
Archetypal storybook thing whereit's like he goes into the
woods, he renounces the materialworld and and she does that too.
Wow.
And, and it ends by a river,which Siddhartha also, he
(19:39):
becomes the assistant to theFerryman at the end and he
crosses the river, and the riverbecomes his teacher.
And so I, and um, the white hotby the Skoki River and in
Philly, and she has her ownmoment of enlightenment.
Brett Benner (19:52):
I was gonna ask you about this earlier.
So your mom is a, is a, a kumipriestess, correct?
Yes.
And was that from yourchildhood, right from the
beginning, or did, was thatsomething she discovered later
in your life?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (20:04):
That was later so that, that started
maybe around like when I was inlate grade school, early middle
school.
Um, but she was a deeplyspiritual woman all my life.
Like she.
Would tell me her way ofteaching me Spanish in an
English household, um, was bytelling me quote unquote ghost
(20:27):
stories from her childhood.
But not, not like Casper, thefriendly ghost kind of thing.
Like, here's what happened whena dead person came to me in my
town of Puerto Rico where I grewup.
You know, here's how I.
Addressed to that, and I wasterrified.
Like she would tell me thesestories about talking to spirits
when she was a kid.
(20:47):
So this has been, she sees theworld differently than I do, and
so I was the kind of likebeneficiary, my world expanded
by hearing about how she seesit.
Every time she would pray itwould be like in a different
language or using different.
I mean, we wanna talk aboutgender pronouns.
Like there were different genderpronouns for God, like in all
the different prayers growingup.
(21:08):
You know, it was so multi-faith.
Um, just her roots and herpractice.
And then she was crowned jungle.
Around like when I waspre-adolescent.
And so that ceremonial practicebecame part of our lives.
I was went to Quaker meetingbecause she ran a lot of youth
programs around the country forteenagers of color, through
(21:30):
American Friend ServiceCommittee.
So it was a very interfaith.
Childhood, which I loved.
And one of the things I've lovedabout moving into books from
playwriting is I can write aboutthe spirit in a different way on
the page because I'm not tryingto present what's happening.
I'm trying to present someone'sexperience of it.
Brett Benner (21:46):
Mm-hmm.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (21:48):
If I present what's happening on
stage and what's happening issomeone getting touched by God,
then the audience is foldingtheir arms going, but I don't
believe in that, so what am Isupposed to do?
But if I'm writing on the pageabout April Soto had this
experience, she felt like shewas levitating.
Whether or not she was actuallylevitating is actually not the
point.
Her experience of that is whatthe point is.
Then you're allowed to still beatheist or cynical reading it,
(22:10):
and you can still take away themeaning that she had this
experience.
Brett Benner (22:15):
Right.
You're able to empathize.
You're able to, if, if, if, ifit's all worked, you're with
that character anyway.
I also think it's such adifferent thing with a play.
You write the words, you have abelief, you'd understand the arc
of these characters if come fromyou, and yet it becomes such a
shared experience when an actorand a director become involved
(22:36):
and they're bringing their own.
Ideas, visions, personalitiesalso to those things where
writing is such a, it's trulyjust yours until it becomes a
shared experience with thereader in terms of the way they
experience, it's, uh.
It's interesting.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (22:51):
Yeah.
No, part of why I, I wrote mostof you know, 98% of this book is
the letter.
That's why it's short.
'cause it's the letter shewrites her daughter when her
daughter turns 18.
But part of the, the choice towrite a letter is to put it in
whatever person is she's talked,she's addressing you, you, you.
Mm-hmm.
I guess that's second person.
(23:12):
You, you, you, and it's thisfeeling of like, I'm whispering
in your ear.
I'm right here with you.
It's a one-to-one experience.
Whereas of course on stage whereI worked for 20 years and I'm
still working, you have to speakto the back row.
It's not whispering in someone'sear.
It's I'm, I'm on stage and theback row might be 150 feet away
from me and they have to connectwith what I'm doing.
(23:33):
So it's very different scale ofexperience.
Brett Benner (23:36):
Yeah.
Do you view yourself now inlight of your upbringing as a
spiritual person?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (23:41):
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, I don't have, I'm notgifted in the way that my mom
is.
Um, but yes, I am spiritual andreligious, multi-faith.
I mean, I still go to Quakermeeting.
every once in a while I have, Istill have my altar and my, I'm
not wearing them now.
So, yeah, it's, it's a part ofthe practice.
It's part of my life.
Brett Benner (24:00):
Mm-hmm.
I love that.
So later in the book, she meetsthis man, Kamal, and, um, they
kind of forge this connection,but this is where the, the music
part, we talked in the verybeginning about Mingus and Jimi
Hendrix, and this just.
Incredible sequence, which is,it's such a love letter to
musicians and music and, and,and knowing your background.
(24:21):
It's so beautiful.
I wrote,, this one quote downthat when she says about hearing
Mingus for the first time, shesaid, listen, feels like too
small of a word.
For what she was experiencing.
And I, I loved that so much.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (24:36):
Like swim would be too small a word.
If you get stuck in the undertowand you can't find the surface
of the water and you can't comeup for a breath, like swimming
is not like the right word.
And that is when you hear analbum.
One of the fun things aboutwriting, she meets this man
Kamal in the woods, who goes tothe woods to meditate.
They hit it off.
She goes back to his place andhe's an audio file and he's
(24:57):
like, I gotta play.
You don't know mgu.
You don't know Jimi Hendrix.
Like, he's gotta play hisfavorite albums.
And so we get through, by theway,
Brett Benner (25:03):
just the fact that he's playing albums, let's just
say that It's not like a cd.
He's old school.
He is putting on an album withan album whole thing.
So he's, which is
Quiara Alegria Hudes (25:09):
snobby about it, you know?
Yes.
Brett Benner (25:11):
Which is how it's like, is Yes.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (25:13):
It's like kind of a, a expensive hobby of
his now, you know, part of thefun of writing that is this is
April's first time and.
We all have that experience.
It's like the first time youheard an album that became
meaningful for you forever.
So we get to encounter thisstuff with April for the first
time, even though we have likelyheard Jimi Hendrix, we have
likely heard Charles Mingus and,and so it overwhelms her because
(25:35):
here's this.
Young woman, she's never heardit be, she's never heard jazz.
And, and, and her first jazz isMingus.
And Mingus is like, it'sraucous.
It's pretty wild.
He's grappling and, and some ofit's like really nasty and
thorny and it's just, it's, italmost sounds like a fight in
sonic form.
And it's beautiful and she hearsit and she almost is like.
(25:57):
First of all, she's embarrassedat how limited her knowledge is.
She realizes for the first time,damn, I never even heard this
before.
Apparently this is stuffeveryone knows, but she also
kind of retrospectively is like,oh my God, this music would've
been really helpful when I was akid.
And the only way I knew how todeal with my anger was to lash
out.
Well look at Mingus like he'slashing out.
(26:19):
You know, on the bass, he'shaving the drummer lash out.
He's having the pianist lashout, and then they resolve it
and it's got dignity.
And they should have just playedthis for me in high school,
rather than sending me todetention all the time.
It would've been more helpful,you know, and it's hot too.
It's sexy and it kind of likehelps, you know, set the mood
for, for the two of them as acouple too.
Brett Benner (26:37):
Do you listen to music while you write?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (26:39):
Yes.
Though the definition of writemight, it depends on, on how
technical we're getting aboutwhat it means to write, but for
me, writing involves the act oflike having a pen or pencil in
hand or typing and.
Like literally doing nothing andwalking, like those are the
(26:59):
activities.
And so music is very much partof like sitting around doing
nothing and very much part ofwalking.
It becomes part of the practice.
And then I kind of pin hone inon an album or some songs, and
then that starts to inform thestructure too, where it's like,
okay, I've, you know.
The drums just went crazy.
I just had my wild, big,aggressive solo, like what kind
(27:20):
of song would come next on thealbum?
I need to like take it down anotch kind of thing.
So it helps inform my narrativestructures too.
Brett Benner (27:28):
Well, I'm also just wondering in, in terms of
a,'cause it talking about, likewhen I'm hearing you say is it's
an organic experience of ifyou're walking, you're listening
to music and all these thingsbegin to kind of pull and your,
your mind begins to.
Uh, you know, flood with ideasor thoughts that you then begin
to coalesce and put down.
Yes.
So, I'm curious in conjunctionwith that, but also a little
(27:51):
separate, what was the impetusfor the white hot?
Quiara Alegria Hudes (27:54):
Okay, so it was two things really.
It started, it started in 2012.
when, it's funny'cause I was,it's, I was listening to Jagged
little Pill and, hmm.
That music doesn't, didn'treally end up informing too much
of the book's aesthetics, but itwas that kind of like match that
lit the, the spark, um, that litthe firework or whatever.
(28:16):
Because I was listening to it,it's like Alanis morrisette, you
know, there's a lot of rage,right?
She's angry as hell.
She was like, kind of likeslutty, right?
There was the lyric about, I'llgo down.
Did she go down on you in atheater?
Like Yeah, it it, she was a hotmess and was.
(28:37):
Virtuo with the lyric writingaround it.
And then there's a song thatit's like she's curious about
God and it's kind of funny andhas a really light touch.
Like those things coexisting.
She's very playful in some ofthe songs.
Mm-hmm.
Love song.
It's like I'm head over feet,you know, it's, it's playful.
And so I was like, I want acharacter like that.
I want a character who's a hotmess, who's pissed.
(29:00):
Who is gonna call you out and isgonna name names and like might
come and wreck your home, likesto pray and has a good sense of
humor and can have a light touchabout things.
So that, that was the impetus.
And, and actually I don't thinkreading the Ex, the White hot is
the experience of listening tojagged little pill, but there's
still some little vestiges inthere.
(29:21):
Right?
I was like, I'm gonna have, Iwanted to write an anti-hero.
I was like, she is, she's gonnasteal a car.
The first draft, my editor waslike, really?
Is she really stealing the cars?
Like she's gonna steal the car,gonna break into a home.
She might wreck the home.
She breaks into TBD.
No spoilers here, but, and sosome of those are right out of
Alanis Morissette songs.
(29:41):
You know, there's, she, she hasa song called My House.
I don't think it's on the jaggedlittle.
She breaks into a home.
It's in her fantasy.
I think it's in her imagination,whereas it's in my real
narrative.
So that was 2012.
And, and I actually startimagining, um.
Alanis Mo said, has this song,thank you.
It's not on, it's not on JaggedLittle Hill.
Brett Benner (29:57):
Yes.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (29:58):
This kind of spiritual, like living
gratitude.
You know, Oprah wakes up and shesays, I'm grateful to be alive.
Kind of like the gratitudething.
And I was, I was thinking aboutthis world and I start imagining
April sil though I startedimagining her journey and what
does it look like when she getsmad?
And I'm imagining this momentthat this, this stuck with the
book.
This is the first thing in thebook.
I really, really knew.
(30:18):
They're fighting around thedinner table.
They're all women.
Not a man in sight in thishouse.
The didn't food gets thrown,plates get thrown.
And then what does the elder do?
They're, they just don't knowhow to handle their anger.
What does the, the elder do inthe home?
She, she grabs a broom.
She starts trying to sweep updinner and it's very hard to
sweep cooked rice off a floor.
'cause it just gets like dummyand glbb.
(30:40):
And so I imagine our protagonistwatching this and being like,
I'm gonna fricking lose my mindlike.
Sweeping is violence and shegotta get out of there.
She got, she gotta get outtathere like the house is burning
down kind of thing.
And then really that thisrealization, she's watching her
elders sweep this kind of, thegrotesque domesticity of it.
She's like, she has thisrealization for generations.
(31:01):
The women in my family have beensweeping themselves, their,
their trauma, their beauty,their desires.
That's, this is what I've beentrained to do.
And my daughter is 10 and mydaughter's about to pick up that
room.
That room is about to be mydaughter's future as she takes
off.
It's like that do or die moment.
So that was, that's early, earlyon 2012.
And then everything start,that's kind of the sun and then
(31:22):
all the planets of the rest ofthe narrative start to revolve
around that.
right.
In a book.
More enjoyable than doing say aplay.
The, the, the coolest thing inthe world about being a
playwright is you're creatingjobs.
And this is kind of thepragmatist in me, like I really.
If I have a day where I wake upand I'm like, what am I doing?
Why am I doing this?
I could just look back and belike, I created a lot of good
jobs for actors where when Istarted, like there were still a
(31:45):
lot of made roles.
There were still a lot of, youknow, drug dealer number one
roles, and I was like, no, I'mgonna create meaty.
Human beings for these actors.
And so I, I'm really proud ofthat.
I love that you, you, youcreated, you create jobs, you
create a community with theactors and the collaborators.
The, the thing about writingbooks is like the timeline.
(32:08):
A play comes and goes and noone.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's like, oh, thatplay's not happening anymore.
So there's no way for people tosee it.
Books stick around, they lastforever.
And so it's okay if someonedoesn't pick up this book for 20
years and finds meaning in, init, then like things are gonna
happen with it that I'm notgonna be aware of and like I
love that.
Brett Benner (32:25):
Yeah.
One of the things, just by doingthis, I know this is gonna sound
so obvious, but one of thethings about doing this podcast
and just kind of reading moreintentionally is you do, we
talk, we collective, we talk alot about.
You know, why representation isso important, but it, but it
really is because I also thinkit, not only does it show you
another person, another life,another thing that you not
(32:46):
hadn't even thought about, butit also really connects by the
universality of the wholeexperience.
I look at April and think notjust how many women, but how
many people have gotten to thatpoint of like, where am I and
what's happening and, and, andthe ability to say.
I've gotta take a hold ofsomething for a specific reason,
or to save someone, in thiscase, her daughter, to save her
(33:06):
daughter and herself.
It's, it's really beautiful.
I'm really excited for you.
The reactions to the book are,are universally, incredible.
I'm so,, excited for people todiscover her and her journey,
which is.
Frankly mythic to me, socongratulations.
And I absolutely.
I love this cover.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (33:26):
It is so beautiful.
They, it's, it's kind of good,like you remember, um, scratch
and Sniff stickers.
It's got a kind of like,
Brett Benner (33:35):
oh my God.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (33:36):
Scratch it and sniff it and it
Brett Benner (33:37):
Oh, kind of you mean the texture of the book off
the jacket.
You know what I love so much.
I, I love that leg so muchbecause it's not perfect.
Yes, that's it.
The little
Quiara Alegria Hudes (33:49):
cellulite dimple here, and I just think, I
literally think my mom's leg, mymom's leg didn't actually look
like this, but there's somethingabout that.
That cellulite there that I'mjust like, it's a safe place.
It's a safe place to land.
And then we have a little kindof cherub, like baby reaching up
towards the sky.
So yeah, it's, it's a beautifulitem.
Brett Benner (34:08):
it's a sexy cover.
It's also a rock cover and it'sjust, it's unvarnished.
That's how I'd say it.
It's an unvarnished cover and I,and it's, it's so perfectly
encapsulates.
What's inside, but please,people buy independent if you
are able to buy independent.
Again, a big plug for the audiobook and the incredible Daphne
(34:28):
Rubin Vega.
This has been so fantastic and,and, I so appreciate your time.
You've really written somethingthat's just absolutely stunning.
Quiara Alegria Hudes (34:35):
Thanks, Brett.
I appreciate it.
And, and you know, extra pointsfor extra credit for being able
to listen to Mingus as you readit.
That's, that's incredible.
Brett Benner (34:43):
Well, I have to say, I, I, it was, it was low,
so it was very much like, everynow and then it would pop in and
I'd be like, okay, gotta turnthis down a little bit.
But yeah, you should, throwtogether a like a playlist for
this thing
Quiara Alegria Hudes (34:54):
we have, we have a playlist.
Oh, you
Brett Benner (34:55):
do.
Totally do.
And I'll include it.
In the show notes for this, thatwould be great.
So people can just losethemselves.
Thank you again so much, Kiara.
And yes, I have included in theshow notes, the Spotify playlist
for the White Hot.
If you like today's episode orother episodes of Behind the
Stack, please consider likingand subscribing.
(35:15):
Another thing that would beincredibly helpful to me as we
almost wrap up this secondseason is if you could give the
show five stars and if you havethe time, possibly a review.
All of these things are reallyhelpful, so the show continues
to be found by other people, andI can continue to bring you all
(35:36):
conversations like this one.
Thank you so much and I will seeyou all next week.
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