April 8, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with writer Ray Nayler for his new book, "Where The Axe is Buried". They discuss what fiction does well, the success in getting a book to engage you and parallels with current events, and what helps him stay hopeful when the world can feel pessimistic.
Ray's website:
https://www.raynayler.net/
Ray's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/raynayler/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everybody, and welcome or welcome back to
another episode of Behind theStack, where today we're gonna
be discussing the White LotusFinale.
We're not really gonna discussit, but I did watch it last
night.
I don't know if any of youwatched it.
And I, for the most part,thought it was pretty
satisfying.
There were certain things that Ididn't love, but I thought this
was a, decent finale for a very.
(00:23):
Subpar season.
That is my hot take on the whiteLotus.
I'll be interested to see whatthey come up with next, but I
thought it was a long, very,very slow and protracted season.
But I did think a lot of itredeemed itself in this last
episode.
And Carrie Coon is justincredible.
Anyway, moving on.
One book that's coming out todaythat I wanna talk about that's
so good is Katie Kitamura'saudition.
(00:47):
This is her fifth book, and the,summary says it begins with a
tense Manhattan lunch datebetween an accomplished, middle
aged theater actor and amysterious younger man.
Over the course of 197disquieting pages, Kitamura
unravels a provocative narrativethat questions the relationship
between truth and performance.
So this is very much a book forpeople who are missing severance
(01:11):
because it will completely screwwith your head a little bit,
but.
She's such a fantastic writer,and this would also be a great
book for a book club becausethere would be so much to
discuss.
So that is out today, now ontotoday's author.
So I'm really, really excited tohave sitting down with me today,
Ray Nayler who's new book, wherethe Axe Is Buried came out last
(01:34):
week.
I first discovered Ray a fewyears ago.
He published a book called TheMountain Sea, and I just flipped
out over it, which I talk aboutthis with him in our
conversation, so I won't go intoit now, but about Ray.
Ray is the author of the LocustAward-winning novel, the
Mountain and the Sea, which wasnamed one of Esquire's best
(01:58):
science fiction books of alltime.
It's been translated into over adozen languages.
that was followed by his secondbook, the Tusks of Extinction.
He was an environment science,technology, and health officer
at the US Consulate in the HoChi Minh City.
He most recently served asinternational advisory to the
Office of National MarineSanctuaries at the National
(02:20):
Oceanic and AtmosphericAdministration, and as a
diplomat fellow and visitingscholar at the George Washington
University's Institute forInternational Science and
Technology Policy.
He lives in Washington DC withhis family.
So now please enjoy this episodeof Behind the Stack.
(02:43):
so, I am really so happy todayto be joined by Ray Naylor for
his fantastic new book where theax is buried.
Ray, I was one of the peoplethat a few years ago discovered
you through the mountain in thesea, and.
Oh my God, this thing just blewme away.
And I, I was like, who is thisguy?
(03:04):
I was also coming out of justhaving seen my octopus teacher.
And I became obsessed with them.
And so the idea of this.
Book that these people werecommunicating with this, you
know, Highly intelligentcephalopod.
was like, this is real, and thisis like my dream of what I want
to happen.
And who is this man that's youknow, creating this, this whole
(03:25):
idea.
And of course I, I've said thesame thing with this book as
well in a much more kind ofterrifying way.
So congratulations on the book.
I know it just got a, it's got astar review from Kirkus.
It, it really is.
It's, it's so good.
I, you know, to say it's.
Timely is kind of probably theunderstatement of the year.
(03:47):
But it couldn't be more timelyin light of everything that's
happening right now.
Be before we, before we launchinto the, the book itself, I
just have really quick questionsabout you.
So you are a foreign serviceofficer, correct?
Ray Nayler (04:00):
Correct.
Brett Benner (04:02):
Okay.
I have to tell you, when I wastelling my son, and he went
crazy when I told him this.
I had, I told him about the bookand then I said, oh, you know,
this author that I really loveis coming on the show and he's a
foreigner.
And he's like, I have so manyquestions.
I mean, this is what I wanna do.
And, and
Ray Nayler (04:17):
Oh that's great.
Brett Benner (04:17):
And so I, yeah, but I had to be honest, I had to
look it up'cause I had no ideawhat a foreign service officer
did.
And so just really quickly forour listeners and our viewers,
can you sum up what that jobentails?
Ray Nayler (04:32):
Well I have since 2010.
So I was a Peace Corps volunteerinitially in Turkmenistan in
from 2003 to 2005.
And then I worked ininternational education with
American Councils for, forInternational Education in I was
a Peace Corps volunteer inTurkmenistan.
I worked for American Councilsin.
Russia and then in Kazakhstan,in Kyrgyzstan, in Afghanistan.
(04:57):
In Russia again, and thenTajikistan.
From Tajikistan.
I joined the US Foreign Service,which is basically how we staff
our US embassies abroad.
And with them I went to Vietnamwhere the book Mountain Sea is
set.
And then after Vietnam, I was inKyrgyzstan again.
And then in Azerbaijan and thenin Kosovo, I came back here to
(05:19):
the United States in 2022.
And so I had been abroad forabout two decades.
And then I was at the at Noah.
I.
In their marine protected areas,center for a year on a detail.
Mm.
And then at the GeorgeWashington University as a
visiting scholar in theirInternational Science and
Technology Policy Institute.
(05:41):
And my next posting is here inWashington, DC Again, I'll be at
the National Nuclear RiskReduction Center.
That's basically the red phonebetween.
The State Department and Moscowdealing with nuclear armaments
and, and other issues includingcybersecurity and things like
that.
It's a 24 hour, seven day a weekcenter that tries to avoid
(06:02):
misunderstandings and, andaccidents
Brett Benner (06:06):
just because, right.
How many languages do you speak?
Ray Nayler (06:11):
I mean, I've learned and spoken a lot of languages.
I, I really only speak Englishand Russian and I mean, I have,
you know, you learn languagesover the years, but if you don't
use them, they kind of decay.
I'm learning Spanish right now.
Spanish is one of the languagesthat the center uses'cause it's
sort of a, it's now become kindof a web of communications.
(06:31):
And so I could say I speakSpanish, so I'd say three
currently, but I've learned likeseven or eight.
Brett Benner (06:39):
Wow, that's amazing.
I can't even begin to unpack notonly how much, just the
experience of being out of thecountry for so long and living
in such a variety of differentplaces, but it also is so
obvious, I guess it's obvioushow some of, or so many of those
experiences also inform.
(07:01):
Your stories in many ways.
Ray Nayler (07:03):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, 20 years overseas.
If it doesn't teach you anythingelse, it'll certainly teach you
how to feel stupid and do thingswrong.
How to feel like a stranger andan outsider.
How to communicate things youdidn't intend to communicate.
How not to communicate how, youknow, easy it is to have
misunderstandings and thingslike that.
And, and that's a lot of whatthe material that went into the
(07:26):
mountain and the sea.
I mean, besides my obviousinterest in, in biology and
communications and consciousnessand those things, a lot of it is
just about the difficulty ofcommunication and you know, just
what a.
Phenomenon.
It really is that we're able tohave intelligible communication
with one another at all.
(07:46):
Right.
Yeah.
Given just what challenge it canbe,
Brett Benner (07:51):
so, okay.
So then moving on to where theax is buried.
do you have a.
It sounds so Hollywood, but youknow, you are what, you know an
elevator pitch for the book.
Ray Nayler (08:01):
I do not.
I am really struggling not tobecome a salesman and instead
just to remain a writer.
But I'll just say it's about twosystems that are, that are
oppressive.
One is more oppressive than theother, but both systems are
beginning to fail for certainreasons.
And it's.
An examination of how systemsfail and what that means for
(08:25):
people who are involved in that,in that failure.
And it's an examination ofauthoritarianism and an
examination of all governmentalforms that limit or suffocate
human freedom.
Brett Benner (08:37):
Mm.
And it should be noted that youdid finish this before, before
the election,
Ray Nayler (08:41):
yes.
And it's more about the UnitedStates.
I mean, I should be really clearabout that.
Yeah.
The US has only mentioned onetime in this book.
Correct.
So I don't, I I, I woulddiscourage people from, and I've
been asked like, why didn't Iname any of the countries in the
book, for example?
Really like, sort of avoidedthat.
I don't want people to draw oneto one connections because
science fiction is notpredictive in my.
(09:03):
Opinion science fiction doessomething more complicated and
interesting than predictingthings.
It's predic, it predicatesthings on a, on by making
changes, so you make a change tothe world.
You write about the world thatexists when that change is made,
and you use that to kind ofpoint a lens.
(09:23):
At things that might or mightnot be happening in the present
moment as well.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
You know, a a a good example Iwould say is the classic kind of
alternate history where theNazis win World War ii, right?
And then people use that tropeto examine what would happen in
the United States.
(09:44):
If, you know, we were defeatedand, and how power works and
things like that.
I actually flipped that trope alittle bit on its head with my
series of stories.
The Disintegration Loops series,which is being published in, in
as OVS over time.
The first one came out in 2021.
The next installment will comeout in next month actually.
(10:04):
Well in their next, in theirnext issue in May, which usually
comes out in April.
In that book, the United Stateswins World War ii, but wins it
with alien technology and muchmore quickly.
And defeats not only NaziGermany, but also the Soviet
Union and communist China.
Mm.
And becomes this very unipolarpower in the world.
(10:25):
And so it's an examination ofwhat happens then, right?
Wow.
So, so that for me is like,that's, that's the core thing
that science fiction does.
It, it predicates this worldthat uses those predications to
turn.
The lens back on us.
It's always about the presentmoment, in my opinion more than
it is about the future.
(10:45):
And I think sometimes it's funto play the game of like, you
know, what happened that peoplepredicted in science fiction
might happen and what didn'thappen.
But it's more of a like a sidehustle of the genre then.
Sure.
Its core.
Its core power and its corepower I think really lies in
making changes.
And then examining how thosechanges shine a light on human
(11:09):
issues, human psychology, humanbehavior, human governance, that
kind of thing.
I think Frankenstein is awonderful idea a wonderful
example of that.
Mary Shelley wrote this prefacefor Frankenstein, the modern
Prometheus, in which she says, Iknow this is impossible.
But the reason that I'm writingabout this is because, you know,
(11:30):
and I'm of course paraphrasingher.
Very lovely preface.
The reason I'm writing aboutthis is because it allows me a
vista from which I can examinehuman psychology in ways that
would not be possible.
Otherwise.
Mm.
And I think that's such awonderful way of looking at our
entire genre as this sort ofvista from which we can examine
(11:54):
what it means to be human, whatit might mean to be posthuman,
all sorts of things from, fromthis really interesting
perspective.
So that's all to say.
I don't want people to think ofwhere the ax is buried as this
kind of.
Oh, this is Russia and this isthis place and this is that.
Sure.
And this is this thing.
And here's how he's talkingabout these very specific
(12:17):
things.
I'm really talking about muchbroader issues, right?
And the, the way in which theyalign or don't align with our
present moment is trickier thanjust this one-to-one kind of,
you know, big Brother is Stalin,kind of, you know, like limited
(12:37):
analysis.
I think I, I really, I reallythink we, we sometimes as
readers can do disservice toworks that way when we, when we
kind of close them off, right?
Like, I think 1984, for example,was as much about George
Orwell's.
Concerns with oppressivecapitalist British systems as it
(13:01):
was with his concerns about theSoviet Union.
Right.
Like he was concerned with allpower, right?
And the way that all power,affects people's choices.
I think in conclusion, you knowI really think the power of
science fiction lies, itsopenness to interpretation,
right?
We predicate these worlds andthen those worlds for me, I like
to think of them asarchitectures for exploring
(13:22):
questions.
Sure.
You know, people sometimes askme like, well, what do you think
about this?
Or what do you think the answeris to this?
And, and usually my response tothat is like, if I had answers
to things, I would writenonfiction books.
Nonfiction books often suggestanswers to problems, and I do
not believe that is the thingthat fiction does well.
(13:43):
I think what fiction does wellis it creates very sophisticated
spaces in which to ask moresophisticated, more complex
questions about life.
Brett Benner (13:53):
Hmm.
Ray Nayler (13:53):
And the way that we live it and those kinds of
things.
But it doesn't provide or isn'tgood at providing answers.
When it starts providing toomany answers, it becomes really
didactic.
Right.
And so I'm interested inarguments and clearly where the
acts is buried is all aboutarguments.
Right.
But I'm not interested inresolution.
Brett Benner (14:10):
Yeah.
Well, and it's interestingbecause I think one of the
reasons that so many people areglomming on to something is
because of kind of the, theprescient nature of the story.
And in line, you know, if thiswas written two years ago, I
don't, certainly there could beyou know people could tap in and
say, oh, it's Russia.
(14:30):
Right, right.
But I think because of what'shappened in the last five months
and the way that we've watchedcertain things accelerate, as
well as the things that we'retalking about in this, you know,
the use of ai, all of thesethings, which are becoming so
much more prevalent, I thinkthere are a lot of people
reading it and doing what youjust said, and either looking
(14:52):
for answers or looking for.
To kind of categorize or boxwhat they think it is mm-hmm.
Or what it is you are trying toconvey rather than just letting
this story take them.
And it's about these group ofindividuals and how people
respond to something, theseextraordinary circumstances, you
know, but
Ray Nayler (15:10):
I, I think that, you know, in a sense, like fiction
should invite that, right?
Mm-hmm.
It, it's this, you know, wherethe book, when I was going to
university, right?
It was all about the text,right?
And all about where the textfits in.
To, to the world.
And texts are constantlyinterpenetrated by their
position in reality.
So a really good example wouldbe when the mountain in the sea
(15:33):
came out.
It was October of 2022.
It was definitely the year theoctopus in this weird way, all
this octopus stuff had come out.
Brett Benner (15:39):
Yeah.
And
Ray Nayler (15:39):
none of us who were doing things on octopus knew any
of the other people and we'redoing things on octopuses.
But it was sort of like whatWilliam Gibson called steam
engine time.
Right.
When all of a sudden a hundredpeople invent the steam engine.
And then forever about whoactually invented the thing,
because it was really inventedin all these different places at
the same time.
It's kinda like that.
It was like Octopus time, 2022.
(16:01):
Mountain in the Sea comes out inOctober and it's definitely a
book about octopuses and thenDecember and January come
around.
AI hits like a sledgehammer.
Right.
So now it's January of 2023 orDecember of 2022, I think.
And this issue of new scientistcomes out with a review of the
mountain and the sea in it.
And that review is four pageslong or something like that.
(16:23):
It's a really long review.
Very nice review of the, of thebook.
There's not a single mention ofan octopus anywhere in the
review.
It's entirely a review about howthis is a book about artificial
intelligence.
So nothing has changed in thebook, but somehow its position
has shifted.
And for this person who'sreviewing it for new scientists,
(16:45):
this is clearly a book about ai.
And I think that's kind of thewonderful thing about books is
that for the person reading it,this is clearly a book about X
thing that they're concernedwith.
Right?
Sure.
And, and, and if a book is openenough.
It can do that for a lot ofdifferent people.
(17:06):
It can be that for a lot ofdifferent people.
And I think that's really the,the, the wonderful thing about
fiction.
You know Keats talks about whathe calls negative capability.
Mm-hmm.
You know which he.
Suggests is the author's abilityto live with contradiction and a
lack of resolution in things.
(17:27):
He thinks that's what makespoems beautiful is that they
don't resolve and they, theyaren't just easily classified
or, or put into a box.
And I want that, I want peopleto stick things onto.
Where the ax is buried.
Right.
And, and be like, well this is abook about, I mean, you, this
has a parallel with this thathappened in my life, and this is
(17:50):
what I see in politics thatmight be related to this in the
book.
That for me is just a sign thatthe book is doing its job.
It's it's engaging people, it'spulling them in, and it's
connecting to their livedexperience.
Where they are, where they are.
And I, I think that's great.
Brett Benner (18:06):
Yeah.
So.
So then what was the originalseeds for this for you?
What started this in terms ofgerian?
Ray Nayler (18:15):
Well, I had read some books about what was going
on in Western China and the, youknow, genocide that is occurring
there.
And I am, I.
I have a lot of experience inCentral Asia, and this is
essential Asian people beingeffectively destroyed by Han
(18:36):
Chinese imperialism.
And I read a lot of books aboutthe camps that they were, were
taken to and the, and the, theuse of social credit scores and,
and this really pervasivesurveillance and all these
control systems.
Mm-hmm.
And as a science fiction writer,I thought about what the futures
of those things could look like.
I also knew that China wasexporting those techniques to
(18:59):
other authoritarian regimes,that other authoritarian regimes
are communicating authoritariantechniques with one another
behind the scenes.
And this.
General tendency in the worldtoward control and
centralization of data and theuse of data to control people's
(19:24):
decision making, examine theirdec decision making attempt to
manipulate that decision makingin all senses for me seems like
one of the fundamental.
Sort of elements of our modernlife, right?
Like what we're really dealingwith right now is this kind of
(19:46):
cybernetic moment in governancewhere governments and
corporations and other largeentities with the capacity to
pull in massive amounts of data,are starting to use that data or
attempt to use it to change.
The system and change the waythat people interact with the,
(20:06):
with the system and change thekinds of choices that people
make.
And those changes can be for, onthe one side, very authoritarian
purposes.
On the other side, they might bejust trying to get you to buy a
product, right?
Or trying to get you to holdyour attention for 10 seconds.
And, and those corporate sort ofmoments may not feel like such a
(20:27):
threat, but for me.
You know, if you were lookingfor what freedom is, I would say
freedom is choice.
And so if choice is beingmanipulated and choices are
being limited by funneling youdown certain tracks towards
certain kinds of decisions thatare beneficial to other people,
but not maybe to you, thenfreedom is being limited.
(20:49):
So there is an an authoritarianelement to both sides, right?
And so I wanted to come up witha way to, to present both of
these things.
And then kind of push them upagainst each other, see how they
align and don't align.
And then try to think alsothrough the idea of like, well,
(21:09):
how might that end?
And, and how, how do you get outof systems like that and, and
what's the final, you know,result?
And what seeds are in thosesystems that might cause their
own collapse?
Brett Benner (21:21):
there's a multitude of people in this,
from both sides.
From there's a, there's apresidential figure there's for
lack of a better word, there'srebels.
was there someone that youstarted with first that you,
that can became a launch offpoint for you?
Ray Nayler (21:35):
I started with the story of Lilia and Palmer and
Zoya and the other characterskind of came into focus shortly
afterward.
I think the first scene I, Iwrote is the first chapter of
the book.
It's the scene with Soya whereshe sees this person who's.
(22:00):
Using this masking device so shecan only see them with one eye
and can't see them with herelectronic eye.
Right.
And that was just an image thatI loved because I had seen a
painting I.
That had that kind of effect.
And, and it just fascinated me.
So I, I, you know, in some waysthat chapter emerged from this
(22:21):
thing I wanted to do visuallyright in, in my writing, this
kind of image of a person who'sthere and not there.
Because they're being looked atwith two different sort of
perspectives and so.
So I think you know, that storyof the story of Livia and
Palmer, which is kind of themost straightforward element,
was there.
But before that, I had also beenwriting this story about this
(22:44):
hapless.
Parliamentarian parliamentarystaffer, right?
Just trying to get through a dayat work when this revolution
starts to unfold.
And he gets trapped in theparliamentary building, you
know, trying to figure out howto survive this, you know,
revolution and.
And like he's really just thiskind of person who like wants to
(23:05):
eat a good meal at night.
And that's as far
Brett Benner (23:08):
as he's just trying to get by.
He literally like wants to punchin, punch out and go home.
Like, like I think he's themost, almost in a lot of ways,
the most every man of everyonein this book because it really,
he does really come to the pointof what would you do in this
kind of situation when you'refaced with these incredible
(23:28):
things.
Right.
Ray Nayler (23:30):
Yeah.
I mean, everyone in the book tosome extent or another, except
for Krotov right, is kind oflimited in their, in their
perspective.
Krotov is the is the
Brett Benner (23:40):
security.
The part security agent.
And, or were we talking aboutNerlon earlier, correct.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Nerlon is the parliamentarystaffer.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ray Nayler (23:48):
Yeah.
And yeah, Nerlon just reallywants to like, like, have a nice
dinner Yes.
And just go to sleep.
His, the extent of his hisdesire, he is a.
He's a pretty, pretty simpleperson, and, and I think he's,
you know, he's, he's like a lotof us too.
He like, has a job.
He's not that interested in hisjob.
(24:08):
You know, it's a decent job.
He doesn't really love or hateit.
But really, you know, what hewants is to you clock in and
clock out, right?
And have this routine.
I, a big question I was askingmyself, you know.
Is what does the end of theworld look like to an average
person like you or me?
From and from a limitedperspective, because, you know,
(24:32):
i's kind of like thinking ofwar.
We often think of war.
In these gigantic sort ofsweeping perspectives where you
see everything from a kind ofGod-like view, right?
Mm-hmm.
The way the battles unfold andall those kinds of things.
And especially boys when theygrow up, right?
Like they're kind of it's, it's,it's hopefully not true anymore,
(24:53):
but certainly in my generation,we were still growing up with
like army men and kind of, youknow, sure.
You arrange these battles, thesekind of set pieces and.
Which is nothing like what warlooks like to anyone, right?
Like, like it's I mean, war andPeace does a fantastic job of
this, of showing what war lookslike to individuals on the
battlefield and even togenerals, right?
(25:14):
It looks like just chaos andlike a series of almost
unrelated events that couldchange at any moment, just
according to someone's emotions.
And, and so I wanted the, thenovel to have that kind of
quality too, that like, youdon't see what's going on,
right?
You're not, you don't have this,one of these characters who has
like a privileged viewpoint intowhy everything is happening.
(25:39):
Instead, you see the world theway that we see the world.
the way people really see it,which is that you just, you
don't know what what is going onand, and what's happening.
And even if you're close topower, you don't understand the
real sequence of events.
And, and, you know, and thingsare very, very confusing.
Given knowing that thatfrustrates some readers who are
used to things like spy novelsand, and, you know, and things
(26:00):
where there, or these likepolitical thrillers where
there's always like theseinsiders that really have some
knowledge of what, of what'sgoing on.
I think representing people orcharacters that are closer to,
to people and closer to thecapacities of real people is
kind of a priority for me.
Right.
Like norlan people, like reallyall of the characters in the
(26:23):
book who are just trying to getby for the most part.
Brett Benner (26:26):
And, and, and also for me, there's something that
is more that, that lands alittle harder too, that any of
these people can end up beingcollateral damage.
Mm-hmm.
That, that no one is no one iskind of exceptional and no one,
in a situation like this comesout unscathed, regardless.
(26:46):
Mm-hmm.
It's affecting everybody., youpull on so many bits of tech,
which one of them that I thinkis so fascinating, I'd love to
just hear you talk about this,is Lilia comes up with this
diorama.
Mm-hmm.
And that she shares with Palmer,which becomes a big thing that
everyone's after.
Can you explain that a littlebit?
(27:07):
I just thought that was soingenious
Ray Nayler (27:09):
well, it's, it's, it's an idea and I don't think
it's a very near future idea.
It probably would take a lotmore time to develop, but this
sort of idea that you could.
Use quantum entanglements to mapthe whole neurological system,
right?
And then you could actually havea view into someone else's mind
and maybe a, a keyhole, not morethan a keyhole, you know, a
(27:30):
doorway into that, into thatmind to actually change things,
like their opinions aboutthings.
This for me is kind of aterrifying concept.
You know.
Because that barrier of thatlast barrier of like what's in
our heads is not one I thinkthat we want to have crossed by
anyone else.
Like we wanna have that last,you know, what is it, maybe six
(27:52):
or eight inches of private spacethat we have left.
But yeah, so the idea is thatshe creates this thing.
These dioramas that allow youthat access into someone else's
entangled neurological networkthat the, the device is
entangled with their, theirmind.
And so, you know, via this sortof intermediary machine, you
(28:13):
can.
Actually maybe change theirthoughts about things, right?
As well as just observing theirthoughts.
But the dioramas are masked bythese pictures that are kind of
just inexplicable narrativesthat appear to be what the
dioramas do, what are, arereally just a screen for what's
really going on behind.
I just thought that was aninteresting concept.
(28:34):
I mean, it's like many sciencefiction concepts.
I think not necessarilypossible.
And, and you know, people thinkof hard science fiction concepts
like faster than light travel.
Highly unlikely to be somethingthat we could ever obtain or
that is possible in theuniverse.
It's, it's quite likely that thespeed of light.
(28:55):
Is the fastest thing there isand there's no getting around it
and you can't travel throughwormholes or, or anything like
that.
So you're stuck.
And that, that kind of sucks,right?
Because it means you're notgonna get to lots of places
quickly that you would like toget to really quickly.
And it would be cool to, to havespace travel, but, but we're
probably not gonna get that.
I think this is a bit like that,right?
(29:17):
But but at the same time, I dothink that this idea of.
Yeah.
Entanglement of minds issuggestive of lots of metaphors
about how our minds really areentangled with one another and
technology and the world and allthe other things around us, and
how that private space reallyisn't so private.
(29:37):
Right?
For sure.
I think all this penetrationfrom the outside into it and and
so in a sense the dioramas arealready here.
Right.
This is just kinda a, a, aconcrete realization of
something that's going on inmore abstract ways.
Brett Benner (29:55):
Sure.
And the way they're getting intoour head and into our
consciousness.
And look, I, you know, we'vealways had the Amazon, devices
in the kitchen that we've usedmostly for timers, uhhuh when
cooking, right?
However, however, there'salways, you know, check the
time, what's the weather?
All that kind of thing.
But inevitably, you're having aconversation about some
innocuous thing.
More often than not, it'ssomething that someone could buy
(30:17):
and the next thing you know,you're open your phone and it's
there, which is always kind ofthe most bizarre, right.
Frightening.
And at the same time, I've hadpeople say to me, well, don't
you wanna turn that off?
Aren't you?
Aren't you weirded out by that?
Mm-hmm.
And my response has always been,look, if someone is so
interested in the mundaneaspects of our life that they're
gonna listen to us talk aboutthese things, fine.
But I get it.
(30:37):
And I, I especially get it whenI'm reading something like this
and thinking, okay, where couldall this, where does all this
lead to?
And where does all thisinformation that's getting
disseminated lead to?
Yeah.
Ray Nayler (30:48):
I mean, I think there's a limit to how much you
should be paranoid about thosethings.
And then there's also like, justthe fact that I.
The more we participate in thesesystems of data collection, the,
the easier we probably get tomanipulate.
But there is no such thing asopting out either.
(31:11):
And so Correct.
In some ways it kind of becomeslike, yes, you should limit
certain things.
You should not let them tracklike certain things about you if
you can.
But at the same time, you haveto be somewhat stoic about it.
And just understand that likethere is no opt out.
This is the world that you livein and there are many things
that you can't control.
You should push for betterpolicies, for lots of things.
(31:33):
You know, all of that is true,but this is also the world we
live in and changing it isbeyond most of us to do.
Brett Benner (31:42):
I have a question related to that because are you
finding, as you continue towrite, as you put this out.
That being a relatively newparent has changed your attitude
towards certain things or it'schanged certain things in your
writing?
Ray Nayler (31:56):
It's utterly changed everything in, in my writing and
my attitude toward things.
It's pushed my concerns beyondthe selfish boundaries of my own
life.
That's what being a parent.
I think does to you, is it, itis like someone described it as
walking, like having your heartwalk around outside your body.
(32:19):
Right.
And I feel like, I feel that, Ifeel that every day.
Like my heart is just walkingaround outside my body and I'm
very concerned with this other,other person.
And, and with the future in away that I was concerned before,
but in a, a, it has a new powerbecause this is the world.
The world we are creating is theworld that she will have to live
(32:39):
in.
And yeah, I can't help but feelsomewhat disturbed by that.
But also hopeful because itdoesn't pay to be pessimistic.
I think being pessimistic isalso an excuse, right?
Pure dystopias for me alwayscome off that way, like an
excuse.
(33:00):
And so I would say this has beencalled a dystopia, and I don't
agree with that.
I actually think that this is avery hopeful book.
Brett Benner (33:08):
No,, I think so too.
And I, I, I think you know, oneof the things that the book
really questions is a sense ofhaving a responsibility and what
do you do with thatresponsibility, whether it's
collective or individual.
And I think I.
That is the one thing for methat is very parallel to what's
happening right now mm-hmm.
(33:29):
Is we all have to make choicesand figure out what does it mean
to fight for something.
Right?
And what does it mean to standup for rights and citizens and
all of the things that so manyof us have.
Taken for granted at the expenseof losing them.
And that's what the book is tome about it.
(33:53):
It, there is a hopefulness toit, but I agree with you.
I, I, I think, you know, it'seasy to get numb mm-hmm.
But it's necessary to still beplugged in.
Literally and figuratively, evenif it means you've gotta step
out of it for a while and thenreengage.
Yeah.
(34:13):
Because it's the only way we'regonna get through.
Ray Nayler (34:16):
Absolutely.
Brett Benner (34:17):
Absolutely.
But I do feel like the bookultimately has a very positive
through line.
It's not.
Hopeless, dystopian, no.
By any stretch.
Ray Nayler (34:27):
I, I, I would never write a book that was like that
because I also think books needto do something in the world and
I don't wanna write books thatdo that, right?
That discourage people fromaction.
Brett Benner (34:37):
No.
And I think, and I think what itdoes, and coming back to what
you were saying earlier, thesuccess of the book is it is
going to, you're gonna come atit from where you're at
presently and be able toextrapolate what you will
because of that.
But it is that same thing that'sgoing to cause conversation to
happen in the best way.
(34:57):
Mm-hmm.
And be able to find if there'sparallels to be found or hope to
be found.
It does it in the best way and,and that's what a good book
should do is create thatconversation.
So well, alright, I wanna thankyou so much for, for being here
again.
The book is where the ax isburied.
(35:17):
Buy Independent.
I always say if you can but makesure you you check it out.
I also listen to a lot of thison audio and I will say the
audio is, is really fantasticas.
Yeah.
It is, it is been a pleasurejust being privy to your mind.
Ray Nayler (35:35):
Thank you Brett
Brett Benner (35:35):
for this time.
I really appreciate it and andbest of luck with it.
I can't wait to see everythingthat's gonna, that's gonna come
out of it and hopefully we won'tend up in this world.
Ray Nayler (35:45):
Let's not have it become more relevant than it's
Brett Benner (35:48):
exactly.
Alright, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening,everyone, and if you're liking
what you're hearing from theseconversations, please like and
subscribe, so you'll never missan episode.
And also what would be reallyhelpful is if you're enjoying
this podcast, consider writing areview and giving me five stars
(36:09):
because all of that helps.
Raise the profile of thepodcast, so I would really
appreciate it.
and I will see you next week.
Hey everybody, and welcome or welcome back to
another episode of Behind theStack, where today we're gonna
be discussing the White LotusFinale.
We're not really gonna discussit, but I did watch it last
night.
I don't know if any of youwatched it.
And I, for the most part,thought it was pretty
satisfying.
There were certain things that Ididn't love, but I thought this
was a, decent finale for a very.
(00:23):
Subpar season.
That is my hot take on the whiteLotus.
I'll be interested to see whatthey come up with next, but I
thought it was a long, very,very slow and protracted season.
But I did think a lot of itredeemed itself in this last
episode.
And Carrie Coon is justincredible.
Anyway, moving on.
One book that's coming out todaythat I wanna talk about that's
so good is Katie Kitamura'saudition.
(00:47):
This is her fifth book, and the,summary says it begins with a
tense Manhattan lunch datebetween an accomplished, middle
aged theater actor and amysterious younger man.
Over the course of 197disquieting pages, Kitamura
unravels a provocative narrativethat questions the relationship
between truth and performance.
So this is very much a book forpeople who are missing severance
(01:11):
because it will completely screwwith your head a little bit,
but.
She's such a fantastic writer,and this would also be a great
book for a book club becausethere would be so much to
discuss.
So that is out today, now ontotoday's author.
So I'm really, really excited tohave sitting down with me today,
Ray Nayler who's new book, wherethe Axe Is Buried came out last
(01:34):
week.
I first discovered Ray a fewyears ago.
He published a book called TheMountain Sea, and I just flipped
out over it, which I talk aboutthis with him in our
conversation, so I won't go intoit now, but about Ray.
Ray is the author of the LocustAward-winning novel, the
Mountain and the Sea, which wasnamed one of Esquire's best
(01:58):
science fiction books of alltime.
It's been translated into over adozen languages.
that was followed by his secondbook, the Tusks of Extinction.
He was an environment science,technology, and health officer
at the US Consulate in the HoChi Minh City.
He most recently served asinternational advisory to the
Office of National MarineSanctuaries at the National
(02:20):
Oceanic and AtmosphericAdministration, and as a
diplomat fellow and visitingscholar at the George Washington
University's Institute forInternational Science and
Technology Policy.
He lives in Washington DC withhis family.
So now please enjoy this episodeof Behind the Stack.
(02:43):
so, I am really so happy todayto be joined by Ray Naylor for
his fantastic new book where theax is buried.
Ray, I was one of the peoplethat a few years ago discovered
you through the mountain in thesea, and.
Oh my God, this thing just blewme away.
And I, I was like, who is thisguy?
(03:04):
I was also coming out of justhaving seen my octopus teacher.
And I became obsessed with them.
And so the idea of this.
Book that these people werecommunicating with this, you
know, Highly intelligentcephalopod.
was like, this is real, and thisis like my dream of what I want
to happen.
And who is this man that's youknow, creating this, this whole
(03:25):
idea.
And of course I, I've said thesame thing with this book as
well in a much more kind ofterrifying way.
So congratulations on the book.
I know it just got a, it's got astar review from Kirkus.
It, it really is.
It's, it's so good.
I, you know, to say it's.
Timely is kind of probably theunderstatement of the year.
(03:47):
But it couldn't be more timelyin light of everything that's
happening right now.
Be before we, before we launchinto the, the book itself, I
just have really quick questionsabout you.
So you are a foreign serviceofficer, correct?
Ray Nayler (04:00):
Correct.
Brett Benner (04:02):
Okay.
I have to tell you, when I wastelling my son, and he went
crazy when I told him this.
I had, I told him about the bookand then I said, oh, you know,
this author that I really loveis coming on the show and he's a
foreigner.
And he's like, I have so manyquestions.
I mean, this is what I wanna do.
And, and
Ray Nayler (04:17):
Oh that's great.
Brett Benner (04:17):
And so I, yeah, but I had to be honest, I had to
look it up'cause I had no ideawhat a foreign service officer
did.
And so just really quickly forour listeners and our viewers,
can you sum up what that jobentails?
Ray Nayler (04:32):
Well I have since 2010.
So I was a Peace Corps volunteerinitially in Turkmenistan in
from 2003 to 2005.
And then I worked ininternational education with
American Councils for, forInternational Education in I was
a Peace Corps volunteer inTurkmenistan.
I worked for American Councilsin.
Russia and then in Kazakhstan,in Kyrgyzstan, in Afghanistan.
(04:57):
In Russia again, and thenTajikistan.
From Tajikistan.
I joined the US Foreign Service,which is basically how we staff
our US embassies abroad.
And with them I went to Vietnamwhere the book Mountain Sea is
set.
And then after Vietnam, I was inKyrgyzstan again.
And then in Azerbaijan and thenin Kosovo, I came back here to
(05:19):
the United States in 2022.
And so I had been abroad forabout two decades.
And then I was at the at Noah.
I.
In their marine protected areas,center for a year on a detail.
Mm.
And then at the GeorgeWashington University as a
visiting scholar in theirInternational Science and
Technology Policy Institute.
(05:41):
And my next posting is here inWashington, DC Again, I'll be at
the National Nuclear RiskReduction Center.
That's basically the red phonebetween.
The State Department and Moscowdealing with nuclear armaments
and, and other issues includingcybersecurity and things like
that.
It's a 24 hour, seven day a weekcenter that tries to avoid
(06:02):
misunderstandings and, andaccidents
Brett Benner (06:06):
just because, right.
How many languages do you speak?
Ray Nayler (06:11):
I mean, I've learned and spoken a lot of languages.
I, I really only speak Englishand Russian and I mean, I have,
you know, you learn languagesover the years, but if you don't
use them, they kind of decay.
I'm learning Spanish right now.
Spanish is one of the languagesthat the center uses'cause it's
sort of a, it's now become kindof a web of communications.
(06:31):
And so I could say I speakSpanish, so I'd say three
currently, but I've learned likeseven or eight.
Brett Benner (06:39):
Wow, that's amazing.
I can't even begin to unpack notonly how much, just the
experience of being out of thecountry for so long and living
in such a variety of differentplaces, but it also is so
obvious, I guess it's obvioushow some of, or so many of those
experiences also inform.
(07:01):
Your stories in many ways.
Ray Nayler (07:03):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, 20 years overseas.
If it doesn't teach you anythingelse, it'll certainly teach you
how to feel stupid and do thingswrong.
How to feel like a stranger andan outsider.
How to communicate things youdidn't intend to communicate.
How not to communicate how, youknow, easy it is to have
misunderstandings and thingslike that.
And, and that's a lot of whatthe material that went into the
(07:26):
mountain and the sea.
I mean, besides my obviousinterest in, in biology and
communications and consciousnessand those things, a lot of it is
just about the difficulty ofcommunication and you know, just
what a.
Phenomenon.
It really is that we're able tohave intelligible communication
with one another at all.
(07:46):
Right.
Yeah.
Given just what challenge it canbe,
Brett Benner (07:51):
so, okay.
So then moving on to where theax is buried.
do you have a.
It sounds so Hollywood, but youknow, you are what, you know an
elevator pitch for the book.
Ray Nayler (08:01):
I do not.
I am really struggling not tobecome a salesman and instead
just to remain a writer.
But I'll just say it's about twosystems that are, that are
oppressive.
One is more oppressive than theother, but both systems are
beginning to fail for certainreasons.
And it's.
An examination of how systemsfail and what that means for
(08:25):
people who are involved in that,in that failure.
And it's an examination ofauthoritarianism and an
examination of all governmentalforms that limit or suffocate
human freedom.
Brett Benner (08:37):
Mm.
And it should be noted that youdid finish this before, before
the election,
Ray Nayler (08:41):
yes.
And it's more about the UnitedStates.
I mean, I should be really clearabout that.
Yeah.
The US has only mentioned onetime in this book.
Correct.
So I don't, I I, I woulddiscourage people from, and I've
been asked like, why didn't Iname any of the countries in the
book, for example?
Really like, sort of avoidedthat.
I don't want people to draw oneto one connections because
science fiction is notpredictive in my.
(09:03):
Opinion science fiction doessomething more complicated and
interesting than predictingthings.
It's predic, it predicatesthings on a, on by making
changes, so you make a change tothe world.
You write about the world thatexists when that change is made,
and you use that to kind ofpoint a lens.
(09:23):
At things that might or mightnot be happening in the present
moment as well.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
You know, a a a good example Iwould say is the classic kind of
alternate history where theNazis win World War ii, right?
And then people use that tropeto examine what would happen in
the United States.
(09:44):
If, you know, we were defeatedand, and how power works and
things like that.
I actually flipped that trope alittle bit on its head with my
series of stories.
The Disintegration Loops series,which is being published in, in
as OVS over time.
The first one came out in 2021.
The next installment will comeout in next month actually.
(10:04):
Well in their next, in theirnext issue in May, which usually
comes out in April.
In that book, the United Stateswins World War ii, but wins it
with alien technology and muchmore quickly.
And defeats not only NaziGermany, but also the Soviet
Union and communist China.
Mm.
And becomes this very unipolarpower in the world.
(10:25):
And so it's an examination ofwhat happens then, right?
Wow.
So, so that for me is like,that's, that's the core thing
that science fiction does.
It, it predicates this worldthat uses those predications to
turn.
The lens back on us.
It's always about the presentmoment, in my opinion more than
it is about the future.
(10:45):
And I think sometimes it's funto play the game of like, you
know, what happened that peoplepredicted in science fiction
might happen and what didn'thappen.
But it's more of a like a sidehustle of the genre then.
Sure.
Its core.
Its core power and its corepower I think really lies in
making changes.
And then examining how thosechanges shine a light on human
(11:09):
issues, human psychology, humanbehavior, human governance, that
kind of thing.
I think Frankenstein is awonderful idea a wonderful
example of that.
Mary Shelley wrote this prefacefor Frankenstein, the modern
Prometheus, in which she says, Iknow this is impossible.
But the reason that I'm writingabout this is because, you know,
(11:30):
and I'm of course paraphrasingher.
Very lovely preface.
The reason I'm writing aboutthis is because it allows me a
vista from which I can examinehuman psychology in ways that
would not be possible.
Otherwise.
Mm.
And I think that's such awonderful way of looking at our
entire genre as this sort ofvista from which we can examine
(11:54):
what it means to be human, whatit might mean to be posthuman,
all sorts of things from, fromthis really interesting
perspective.
So that's all to say.
I don't want people to think ofwhere the ax is buried as this
kind of.
Oh, this is Russia and this isthis place and this is that.
Sure.
And this is this thing.
And here's how he's talkingabout these very specific
(12:17):
things.
I'm really talking about muchbroader issues, right?
And the, the way in which theyalign or don't align with our
present moment is trickier thanjust this one-to-one kind of,
you know, big Brother is Stalin,kind of, you know, like limited
(12:37):
analysis.
I think I, I really, I reallythink we, we sometimes as
readers can do disservice toworks that way when we, when we
kind of close them off, right?
Like, I think 1984, for example,was as much about George
Orwell's.
Concerns with oppressivecapitalist British systems as it
(13:01):
was with his concerns about theSoviet Union.
Right.
Like he was concerned with allpower, right?
And the way that all power,affects people's choices.
I think in conclusion, you knowI really think the power of
science fiction lies, itsopenness to interpretation,
right?
We predicate these worlds andthen those worlds for me, I like
to think of them asarchitectures for exploring
(13:22):
questions.
Sure.
You know, people sometimes askme like, well, what do you think
about this?
Or what do you think the answeris to this?
And, and usually my response tothat is like, if I had answers
to things, I would writenonfiction books.
Nonfiction books often suggestanswers to problems, and I do
not believe that is the thingthat fiction does well.
(13:43):
I think what fiction does wellis it creates very sophisticated
spaces in which to ask moresophisticated, more complex
questions about life.
Brett Benner (13:53):
Hmm.
Ray Nayler (13:53):
And the way that we live it and those kinds of
things.
But it doesn't provide or isn'tgood at providing answers.
When it starts providing toomany answers, it becomes really
didactic.
Right.
And so I'm interested inarguments and clearly where the
acts is buried is all aboutarguments.
Right.
But I'm not interested inresolution.
Brett Benner (14:10):
Yeah.
Well, and it's interestingbecause I think one of the
reasons that so many people areglomming on to something is
because of kind of the, theprescient nature of the story.
And in line, you know, if thiswas written two years ago, I
don't, certainly there could beyou know people could tap in and
say, oh, it's Russia.
(14:30):
Right, right.
But I think because of what'shappened in the last five months
and the way that we've watchedcertain things accelerate, as
well as the things that we'retalking about in this, you know,
the use of ai, all of thesethings, which are becoming so
much more prevalent, I thinkthere are a lot of people
reading it and doing what youjust said, and either looking
(14:52):
for answers or looking for.
To kind of categorize or boxwhat they think it is mm-hmm.
Or what it is you are trying toconvey rather than just letting
this story take them.
And it's about these group ofindividuals and how people
respond to something, theseextraordinary circumstances, you
know, but
Ray Nayler (15:10):
I, I think that, you know, in a sense, like fiction
should invite that, right?
Mm-hmm.
It, it's this, you know, wherethe book, when I was going to
university, right?
It was all about the text,right?
And all about where the textfits in.
To, to the world.
And texts are constantlyinterpenetrated by their
position in reality.
So a really good example wouldbe when the mountain in the sea
(15:33):
came out.
It was October of 2022.
It was definitely the year theoctopus in this weird way, all
this octopus stuff had come out.
Brett Benner (15:39):
Yeah.
And
Ray Nayler (15:39):
none of us who were doing things on octopus knew any
of the other people and we'redoing things on octopuses.
But it was sort of like whatWilliam Gibson called steam
engine time.
Right.
When all of a sudden a hundredpeople invent the steam engine.
And then forever about whoactually invented the thing,
because it was really inventedin all these different places at
the same time.
It's kinda like that.
It was like Octopus time, 2022.
(16:01):
Mountain in the Sea comes out inOctober and it's definitely a
book about octopuses and thenDecember and January come
around.
AI hits like a sledgehammer.
Right.
So now it's January of 2023 orDecember of 2022, I think.
And this issue of new scientistcomes out with a review of the
mountain and the sea in it.
And that review is four pageslong or something like that.
(16:23):
It's a really long review.
Very nice review of the, of thebook.
There's not a single mention ofan octopus anywhere in the
review.
It's entirely a review about howthis is a book about artificial
intelligence.
So nothing has changed in thebook, but somehow its position
has shifted.
And for this person who'sreviewing it for new scientists,
(16:45):
this is clearly a book about ai.
And I think that's kind of thewonderful thing about books is
that for the person reading it,this is clearly a book about X
thing that they're concernedwith.
Right?
Sure.
And, and, and if a book is openenough.
It can do that for a lot ofdifferent people.
(17:06):
It can be that for a lot ofdifferent people.
And I think that's really the,the, the wonderful thing about
fiction.
You know Keats talks about whathe calls negative capability.
Mm-hmm.
You know which he.
Suggests is the author's abilityto live with contradiction and a
lack of resolution in things.
(17:27):
He thinks that's what makespoems beautiful is that they
don't resolve and they, theyaren't just easily classified
or, or put into a box.
And I want that, I want peopleto stick things onto.
Where the ax is buried.
Right.
And, and be like, well this is abook about, I mean, you, this
has a parallel with this thathappened in my life, and this is
(17:50):
what I see in politics thatmight be related to this in the
book.
That for me is just a sign thatthe book is doing its job.
It's it's engaging people, it'spulling them in, and it's
connecting to their livedexperience.
Where they are, where they are.
And I, I think that's great.
Brett Benner (18:06):
Yeah.
So.
So then what was the originalseeds for this for you?
What started this in terms ofgerian?
Ray Nayler (18:15):
Well, I had read some books about what was going
on in Western China and the, youknow, genocide that is occurring
there.
And I am, I.
I have a lot of experience inCentral Asia, and this is
essential Asian people beingeffectively destroyed by Han
(18:36):
Chinese imperialism.
And I read a lot of books aboutthe camps that they were, were
taken to and the, and the, theuse of social credit scores and,
and this really pervasivesurveillance and all these
control systems.
Mm-hmm.
And as a science fiction writer,I thought about what the futures
of those things could look like.
I also knew that China wasexporting those techniques to
(18:59):
other authoritarian regimes,that other authoritarian regimes
are communicating authoritariantechniques with one another
behind the scenes.
And this.
General tendency in the worldtoward control and
centralization of data and theuse of data to control people's
(19:24):
decision making, examine theirdec decision making attempt to
manipulate that decision makingin all senses for me seems like
one of the fundamental.
Sort of elements of our modernlife, right?
Like what we're really dealingwith right now is this kind of
(19:46):
cybernetic moment in governancewhere governments and
corporations and other largeentities with the capacity to
pull in massive amounts of data,are starting to use that data or
attempt to use it to change.
The system and change the waythat people interact with the,
(20:06):
with the system and change thekinds of choices that people
make.
And those changes can be for, onthe one side, very authoritarian
purposes.
On the other side, they might bejust trying to get you to buy a
product, right?
Or trying to get you to holdyour attention for 10 seconds.
And, and those corporate sort ofmoments may not feel like such a
(20:27):
threat, but for me.
You know, if you were lookingfor what freedom is, I would say
freedom is choice.
And so if choice is beingmanipulated and choices are
being limited by funneling youdown certain tracks towards
certain kinds of decisions thatare beneficial to other people,
but not maybe to you, thenfreedom is being limited.
(20:49):
So there is an an authoritarianelement to both sides, right?
And so I wanted to come up witha way to, to present both of
these things.
And then kind of push them upagainst each other, see how they
align and don't align.
And then try to think alsothrough the idea of like, well,
(21:09):
how might that end?
And, and how, how do you get outof systems like that and, and
what's the final, you know,result?
And what seeds are in thosesystems that might cause their
own collapse?
Brett Benner (21:21):
there's a multitude of people in this,
from both sides.
From there's a, there's apresidential figure there's for
lack of a better word, there'srebels.
was there someone that youstarted with first that you,
that can became a launch offpoint for you?
Ray Nayler (21:35):
I started with the story of Lilia and Palmer and
Zoya and the other characterskind of came into focus shortly
afterward.
I think the first scene I, Iwrote is the first chapter of
the book.
It's the scene with Soya whereshe sees this person who's.
(22:00):
Using this masking device so shecan only see them with one eye
and can't see them with herelectronic eye.
Right.
And that was just an image thatI loved because I had seen a
painting I.
That had that kind of effect.
And, and it just fascinated me.
So I, I, you know, in some waysthat chapter emerged from this
(22:21):
thing I wanted to do visuallyright in, in my writing, this
kind of image of a person who'sthere and not there.
Because they're being looked atwith two different sort of
perspectives and so.
So I think you know, that storyof the story of Livia and
Palmer, which is kind of themost straightforward element,
was there.
But before that, I had also beenwriting this story about this
(22:44):
hapless.
Parliamentarian parliamentarystaffer, right?
Just trying to get through a dayat work when this revolution
starts to unfold.
And he gets trapped in theparliamentary building, you
know, trying to figure out howto survive this, you know,
revolution and.
And like he's really just thiskind of person who like wants to
(23:05):
eat a good meal at night.
And that's as far
Brett Benner (23:08):
as he's just trying to get by.
He literally like wants to punchin, punch out and go home.
Like, like I think he's themost, almost in a lot of ways,
the most every man of everyonein this book because it really,
he does really come to the pointof what would you do in this
kind of situation when you'refaced with these incredible
(23:28):
things.
Right.
Ray Nayler (23:30):
Yeah.
I mean, everyone in the book tosome extent or another, except
for Krotov right, is kind oflimited in their, in their
perspective.
Krotov is the is the
Brett Benner (23:40):
security.
The part security agent.
And, or were we talking aboutNerlon earlier, correct.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Nerlon is the parliamentarystaffer.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ray Nayler (23:48):
Yeah.
And yeah, Nerlon just reallywants to like, like, have a nice
dinner Yes.
And just go to sleep.
His, the extent of his hisdesire, he is a.
He's a pretty, pretty simpleperson, and, and I think he's,
you know, he's, he's like a lotof us too.
He like, has a job.
He's not that interested in hisjob.
(24:08):
You know, it's a decent job.
He doesn't really love or hateit.
But really, you know, what hewants is to you clock in and
clock out, right?
And have this routine.
I, a big question I was askingmyself, you know.
Is what does the end of theworld look like to an average
person like you or me?
From and from a limitedperspective, because, you know,
(24:32):
i's kind of like thinking ofwar.
We often think of war.
In these gigantic sort ofsweeping perspectives where you
see everything from a kind ofGod-like view, right?
Mm-hmm.
The way the battles unfold andall those kinds of things.
And especially boys when theygrow up, right?
Like they're kind of it's, it's,it's hopefully not true anymore,
(24:53):
but certainly in my generation,we were still growing up with
like army men and kind of, youknow, sure.
You arrange these battles, thesekind of set pieces and.
Which is nothing like what warlooks like to anyone, right?
Like, like it's I mean, war andPeace does a fantastic job of
this, of showing what war lookslike to individuals on the
battlefield and even togenerals, right?
(25:14):
It looks like just chaos andlike a series of almost
unrelated events that couldchange at any moment, just
according to someone's emotions.
And, and so I wanted the, thenovel to have that kind of
quality too, that like, youdon't see what's going on,
right?
You're not, you don't have this,one of these characters who has
like a privileged viewpoint intowhy everything is happening.
(25:39):
Instead, you see the world theway that we see the world.
the way people really see it,which is that you just, you
don't know what what is going onand, and what's happening.
And even if you're close topower, you don't understand the
real sequence of events.
And, and, you know, and thingsare very, very confusing.
Given knowing that thatfrustrates some readers who are
used to things like spy novelsand, and, you know, and things
(26:00):
where there, or these likepolitical thrillers where
there's always like theseinsiders that really have some
knowledge of what, of what'sgoing on.
I think representing people orcharacters that are closer to,
to people and closer to thecapacities of real people is
kind of a priority for me.
Right.
Like norlan people, like reallyall of the characters in the
(26:23):
book who are just trying to getby for the most part.
Brett Benner (26:26):
And, and, and also for me, there's something that
is more that, that lands alittle harder too, that any of
these people can end up beingcollateral damage.
Mm-hmm.
That, that no one is no one iskind of exceptional and no one,
in a situation like this comesout unscathed, regardless.
(26:46):
Mm-hmm.
It's affecting everybody., youpull on so many bits of tech,
which one of them that I thinkis so fascinating, I'd love to
just hear you talk about this,is Lilia comes up with this
diorama.
Mm-hmm.
And that she shares with Palmer,which becomes a big thing that
everyone's after.
Can you explain that a littlebit?
(27:07):
I just thought that was soingenious
Ray Nayler (27:09):
well, it's, it's, it's an idea and I don't think
it's a very near future idea.
It probably would take a lotmore time to develop, but this
sort of idea that you could.
Use quantum entanglements to mapthe whole neurological system,
right?
And then you could actually havea view into someone else's mind
and maybe a, a keyhole, not morethan a keyhole, you know, a
(27:30):
doorway into that, into thatmind to actually change things,
like their opinions aboutthings.
This for me is kind of aterrifying concept.
You know.
Because that barrier of thatlast barrier of like what's in
our heads is not one I thinkthat we want to have crossed by
anyone else.
Like we wanna have that last,you know, what is it, maybe six
(27:52):
or eight inches of private spacethat we have left.
But yeah, so the idea is thatshe creates this thing.
These dioramas that allow youthat access into someone else's
entangled neurological networkthat the, the device is
entangled with their, theirmind.
And so, you know, via this sortof intermediary machine, you
(28:13):
can.
Actually maybe change theirthoughts about things, right?
As well as just observing theirthoughts.
But the dioramas are masked bythese pictures that are kind of
just inexplicable narrativesthat appear to be what the
dioramas do, what are, arereally just a screen for what's
really going on behind.
I just thought that was aninteresting concept.
(28:34):
I mean, it's like many sciencefiction concepts.
I think not necessarilypossible.
And, and you know, people thinkof hard science fiction concepts
like faster than light travel.
Highly unlikely to be somethingthat we could ever obtain or
that is possible in theuniverse.
It's, it's quite likely that thespeed of light.
(28:55):
Is the fastest thing there isand there's no getting around it
and you can't travel throughwormholes or, or anything like
that.
So you're stuck.
And that, that kind of sucks,right?
Because it means you're notgonna get to lots of places
quickly that you would like toget to really quickly.
And it would be cool to, to havespace travel, but, but we're
probably not gonna get that.
I think this is a bit like that,right?
(29:17):
But but at the same time, I dothink that this idea of.
Yeah.
Entanglement of minds issuggestive of lots of metaphors
about how our minds really areentangled with one another and
technology and the world and allthe other things around us, and
how that private space reallyisn't so private.
(29:37):
Right?
For sure.
I think all this penetrationfrom the outside into it and and
so in a sense the dioramas arealready here.
Right.
This is just kinda a, a, aconcrete realization of
something that's going on inmore abstract ways.
Brett Benner (29:55):
Sure.
And the way they're getting intoour head and into our
consciousness.
And look, I, you know, we'vealways had the Amazon, devices
in the kitchen that we've usedmostly for timers, uhhuh when
cooking, right?
However, however, there'salways, you know, check the
time, what's the weather?
All that kind of thing.
But inevitably, you're having aconversation about some
innocuous thing.
More often than not, it'ssomething that someone could buy
(30:17):
and the next thing you know,you're open your phone and it's
there, which is always kind ofthe most bizarre, right.
Frightening.
And at the same time, I've hadpeople say to me, well, don't
you wanna turn that off?
Aren't you?
Aren't you weirded out by that?
Mm-hmm.
And my response has always been,look, if someone is so
interested in the mundaneaspects of our life that they're
gonna listen to us talk aboutthese things, fine.
But I get it.
(30:37):
And I, I especially get it whenI'm reading something like this
and thinking, okay, where couldall this, where does all this
lead to?
And where does all thisinformation that's getting
disseminated lead to?
Yeah.
Ray Nayler (30:48):
I mean, I think there's a limit to how much you
should be paranoid about thosethings.
And then there's also like, justthe fact that I.
The more we participate in thesesystems of data collection, the,
the easier we probably get tomanipulate.
But there is no such thing asopting out either.
(31:11):
And so Correct.
In some ways it kind of becomeslike, yes, you should limit
certain things.
You should not let them tracklike certain things about you if
you can.
But at the same time, you haveto be somewhat stoic about it.
And just understand that likethere is no opt out.
This is the world that you livein and there are many things
that you can't control.
You should push for betterpolicies, for lots of things.
(31:33):
You know, all of that is true,but this is also the world we
live in and changing it isbeyond most of us to do.
Brett Benner (31:42):
I have a question related to that because are you
finding, as you continue towrite, as you put this out.
That being a relatively newparent has changed your attitude
towards certain things or it'schanged certain things in your
writing?
Ray Nayler (31:56):
It's utterly changed everything in, in my writing and
my attitude toward things.
It's pushed my concerns beyondthe selfish boundaries of my own
life.
That's what being a parent.
I think does to you, is it, itis like someone described it as
walking, like having your heartwalk around outside your body.
(32:19):
Right.
And I feel like, I feel that, Ifeel that every day.
Like my heart is just walkingaround outside my body and I'm
very concerned with this other,other person.
And, and with the future in away that I was concerned before,
but in a, a, it has a new powerbecause this is the world.
The world we are creating is theworld that she will have to live
(32:39):
in.
And yeah, I can't help but feelsomewhat disturbed by that.
But also hopeful because itdoesn't pay to be pessimistic.
I think being pessimistic isalso an excuse, right?
Pure dystopias for me alwayscome off that way, like an
excuse.
(33:00):
And so I would say this has beencalled a dystopia, and I don't
agree with that.
I actually think that this is avery hopeful book.
Brett Benner (33:08):
No,, I think so too.
And I, I, I think you know, oneof the things that the book
really questions is a sense ofhaving a responsibility and what
do you do with thatresponsibility, whether it's
collective or individual.
And I think I.
That is the one thing for methat is very parallel to what's
happening right now mm-hmm.
(33:29):
Is we all have to make choicesand figure out what does it mean
to fight for something.
Right?
And what does it mean to standup for rights and citizens and
all of the things that so manyof us have.
Taken for granted at the expenseof losing them.
And that's what the book is tome about it.
(33:53):
It, there is a hopefulness toit, but I agree with you.
I, I, I think, you know, it'seasy to get numb mm-hmm.
But it's necessary to still beplugged in.
Literally and figuratively, evenif it means you've gotta step
out of it for a while and thenreengage.
Yeah.
(34:13):
Because it's the only way we'regonna get through.
Ray Nayler (34:16):
Absolutely.
Brett Benner (34:17):
Absolutely.
But I do feel like the bookultimately has a very positive
through line.
It's not.
Hopeless, dystopian, no.
By any stretch.
Ray Nayler (34:27):
I, I, I would never write a book that was like that
because I also think books needto do something in the world and
I don't wanna write books thatdo that, right?
That discourage people fromaction.
Brett Benner (34:37):
No.
And I think, and I think what itdoes, and coming back to what
you were saying earlier, thesuccess of the book is it is
going to, you're gonna come atit from where you're at
presently and be able toextrapolate what you will
because of that.
But it is that same thing that'sgoing to cause conversation to
happen in the best way.
(34:57):
Mm-hmm.
And be able to find if there'sparallels to be found or hope to
be found.
It does it in the best way and,and that's what a good book
should do is create thatconversation.
So well, alright, I wanna thankyou so much for, for being here
again.
The book is where the ax isburied.
(35:17):
Buy Independent.
I always say if you can but makesure you you check it out.
I also listen to a lot of thison audio and I will say the
audio is, is really fantasticas.
Yeah.
It is, it is been a pleasurejust being privy to your mind.
Ray Nayler (35:35):
Thank you Brett
Brett Benner (35:35):
for this time.
I really appreciate it and andbest of luck with it.
I can't wait to see everythingthat's gonna, that's gonna come
out of it and hopefully we won'tend up in this world.
Ray Nayler (35:45):
Let's not have it become more relevant than it's
Brett Benner (35:48):
exactly.
Alright, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening,everyone, and if you're liking
what you're hearing from theseconversations, please like and
subscribe, so you'll never missan episode.
And also what would be reallyhelpful is if you're enjoying
this podcast, consider writing areview and giving me five stars
(36:09):
because all of that helps.
Raise the profile of thepodcast, so I would really
appreciate it.
and I will see you next week.
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