June 13, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with Rob Franklin to discuss his debut novel, "Great Black Hope". They talk about the intersection of race, class and queerness, Black respectability politics, blending fact and fiction to create a vibrant New York City, and his non for profit initiative Art for Black Lives .
Rob's website:
https://www.robert-michael-franklin.com
Rob's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/robfrank__/
If you like what you're hearing on this podcast please subscribe so you never miss an episode!
Watch Behind the Stack on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@brettsbookstack
Bookshop.org page:
https://www.bookshop.org/shop/brettsbookstack
Brett's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/bretts.book.stack
Behind the Stack email:
brettsbookstack@gmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hello everybody.
It's Brett Benner and welcome orwelcome back to another episode
of Behind the Stack, where todayI'm sitting down with author Rob
Franklin for his debut novel,great Black Hope.
A little bit about Rob.
He was born and raised inAtlanta.
He's a writer of fiction,criticism and poetry, and is
co-founder of Art for BlackLives fiction fellow.
(00:22):
And finalist for the New EnglandReview Emerging Writer Prize.
He has published work in NewEngland, review, Prairie
Schooner and the Rumpus amongothers.
Franklin holds a BA fromStanford University and an MFA
from N NYU's Creative WritingProgram.
He lives in Brooklyn and teacheswriting at the School of Visual
(00:43):
Arts.
So now please enjoy this episodeof Behind the Stack.
I'm really thrilled to besitting down today with author
Rob Franklin, whose debut novelGreat Black Hope is, it's so
good.
It's been a while since I'veseen such crazy pre-publication
(01:04):
like, hype on a book, and Ithink it's so warranted.
So congratulations first off,and, and, and thank you so much
for being here.
Rob Franklin (01:13):
Of course.
Thank you so much for having me,Brett.
Brett Benner (01:15):
Before we launch into the book, and there's so
much to unpack with Smith, I'mjust so curious.
So you grew up in Atlanta?
Rob Franklin (01:23):
Yes, I did.
Grew up in Atlanta and now havebeen in New York for coming up
on 10 years.
Brett Benner (01:29):
Were you an only child?
Rob Franklin (01:31):
No, I have an older sister and a half brother
who's like 10 years older.
Yeah, so he grew up in Chicagoand then my sister and I grew up
in Atlanta.
Brett Benner (01:41):
Okay.
Well so then let me ask you thisquestion.
'cause when I was trying to likedeep dive on you last night, and
I love doing this to like findout information about an author,
now is your dad, does he shareyour name?
Rob Franklin (01:52):
Yes, he does.
Brett Benner (01:54):
Okay, so he was in Morehouse that's him, right?
Rob Franklin (01:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So he was the president ofMorehouse College, which
applicable to the book and likevery.
Yeah, openly.
The, the family resembles myfamily in many ways and like,
um, the father in Great BlackHope is the, the president of a
fictional historically blackcollege, which is definitely
kind of inspired by my dad'srole at Morehouse.
Brett Benner (02:19):
I was looking at your dad and I.
Well, well, now that I know it'syour dad, but I was looking at
his picture and I was like, thattotally can be.
I'm like, that's toocoincidental.
It's too coincidental.
So I Oh, that's so cool.
Were you always a reader whenyou were young?
Rob Franklin (02:34):
Yeah.
I mean, well, so no, my parents,my parents would say, especially
my mom, like.
She really struggled to get meto read when I was a kid, and I
mean, she jokes slash justremembers because it's just a
fact that like the only books Iwould read for a long time were.
(02:56):
Some, some genius in marketinghad figured out that they could
just print the scripts from theKenan NAL show, on Nick
Nickelodeon, just put them inbook form and sell them as
books.
And so for many years that waslike the only thing she could
get me to read.
And then I, you know, like minimillennials, sort of Harry
(03:18):
Potter really like, kind of mademe a reader.
And.
Then after that, I mean, I thinkstarting really like middle high
school, I was a big reader, andkind of like started to find my
own sort of like reading tastein, in high school.
Brett Benner (03:32):
And then when did the poetry start for you?
Did you discover poetry as areader first and then begin to,
to experiment and write ityourself?
Or how did that happen?
Rob Franklin (03:41):
Yeah, I mean, it really came through.
Um, a good friend of mine'ssophomore year of high school
gave me this book called Crushby Richard Syken.
Mm-hmm.
Which, I mean, it's stillprobably my favorite book, or,
or one of them.
And it's a book of poetry.
It's about kind of young loveand like a queer relationship.
And it had this sense of like,urgency.
(04:04):
It was very like formallydistinct and exciting to me.
And it just felt, it felt sodifferent from the kind of like
canonical poetry we were readingin English class.
And so that was the first thingthat like really made me want to
write.
And like soon thereafter, Ibasically started writing what I
would call basically likeExactly mimicking Richard second
(04:24):
style, you know, kind of copycatpoetry.
Yeah.
And like, you know, I think thatthere's something to be said
for.
Doing that as an exercise, youknow, like Didion talks about
like kind of consuming all ofErnest Hemingway and, and like
rewriting his sentences to kindof like figure out how they work
and what their rhythms were.
(04:44):
And, and I think I really didthat with, with that book.
Like I tried to kind ofreplicate that style and got
pretty good at, at kind of likeparroting it.
And it was only once I thenlike.
Continued reading poetry and gotreally into like Claudia Rankin
and Mark Doty and, and a bunchof other poets that I, you know,
(05:05):
I had more references.
Brett Benner (05:07):
Yeah,
Rob Franklin (05:07):
yeah.
Kind of in the bucket.
Um, and slowly but surely,really when I was kind of
starting to go into college, Ithink I started to forge
something more like a voice, um,that felt, that felt like my
own.
Brett Benner (05:20):
You went to Stanford, correct?
Rob Franklin (05:22):
Yes, I did.
Brett Benner (05:23):
And, what was your major?
Rob Franklin (05:24):
So I studied political science, and at the
time I, I wanted to be ajournalist.
I was very like, I mean, I toldpeople I wanted to be a
journalist, I think.
Brett Benner (05:34):
Do you think that was your, was that parental
influence as well?
Rob Franklin (05:36):
I think, yeah.
Like I knew that I wanted towrite and the only sort of
career path that I knew.
Involving writing that was likea sort of stable career.
Or at least it seemed it at thetime, was journalism.
And, so I was, majoring inpolitical science and then
taking creative writing classesjust kind of for fun, and
(05:58):
eventually realized I had enoughclasses to make a minor out of
it.
Mm.
So I minored in creative writingwith a, with a focus in poetry.
And then I was interning forpapers and I interned for like
NPR for Buzzfeed, and I thinkslowly but surely, was kind of
realizing that actually thething that I liked about writing
(06:19):
was like making sentencespretty, not.
Not like reporting.
And therefore that likejournalism probably was not
actually the path for me.
Um, and also, I mean, that wouldwould've been from 2011 through
2015.
So really when journalism waskind of undergoing a
reinvention,, I mean, it was areally changing landscape and I
(06:39):
was also just realizing that itwasn't kind of what I actually
wanted to do.
So ended up then like completelypivoting when I, when I
graduated.
Brett Benner (06:48):
Okay.
And then you did your MFA at,NYU?
Rob Franklin (06:51):
Yes.
Yeah, so I then after college.
I mean, I worked in likebusiness consulting for a couple
years, which I hated.
And then I worked in tech for acouple years, which was fine and
like gave me more time to kindof write nights and weekends.
And was always kind of workingon, actually at the time, a
(07:11):
different novel set in Berlin.
And kind of told myself if Icould, if I could finish a draft
of that, I would let myselfpursue it full time.
And I did, and I, I moved toBerlin and, and worked on that.
And while I was in Berlin, Isort of decided I wanted a
little bit more structure andrigor, to like a writing
practice.
And I decided to apply for, forMFAs and then ended up, as you
(07:32):
said it, NYU.
Brett Benner (07:33):
Okay, two things.
So I'm so curious what happenedto that novel?
Are you ever gonna go back toit?
Rob Franklin (07:39):
So that's very much up, up for discussion now.
I mean, I, I mean, I.
I literally, I went to a readingof my thesis advisor, Katie
Kitura last night, who shares anagent with me and I was talking
to our agent and being like, ohyeah, we should get lunch and
like talk about the next book.
'Cause I do have an idea for anext one, like a new idea, but I
(08:00):
also haven't really shown anyof, I haven't showed like my
agents or editor this other.
Complete manuscript, but it, itwould need a substantial amount
of work.
Yeah.
You know, I started it when Iwas 24, 23.
Um, and at this point, I haven'teven read it for five years.
So I am, I'm curious whatthey'll say.
(08:22):
I mean, I, I do have a lot oflove for that book, but I, I
realized when I was in my MFA,like.
And I, I was working on thefirst draft of Great Black Hope
my first year and bringing intoworkshop the existing draft of
this Berlin book.
And, you know, it was, peoplewere responding well to it, but
(08:44):
I was kind of realizing like, ina way the Berlin book felt like
something someone else couldhave written and Now very
excited to read Aria Arbor'sbook.
Good Girl.
Which, um, great, you know,yeah.
I've heard really good thingsabout, is kind of like a youth
culture Berlin novel and youknow, like she grew up there and
I think it, it sounds like it'sso specific to her experience
(09:06):
and great Black Hope is thatbook for me, like, great By Hope
is a book.
Yeah.
No, it's, it's funny, they,
Brett Benner (09:10):
they can almost be companion pieces in some ways
and they're very differentstories, but because of the age,
a lot of it, yeah.
Rob Franklin (09:17):
Yeah, where it's just like, I can't imagine
anyone else writing this bookin, at least in the particular
way that I did.
And, and so like, I think thatfelt really good, especially for
a debut to be like,
Brett Benner (09:30):
yeah,
Rob Franklin (09:30):
here is a book that is also about the world
that I came from.
And is a sort of likeintroduction to.
You know, noxious like my, myvoice, but my kind of worldview.
So yeah, I, I think I'm stillfiguring out what will, what
will happen with that othermanuscript and, and just kind of
what's the next thing.
Brett Benner (09:48):
Well, it would be interesting to see if you decide
to kind of reopen it.
Just how you view it now afterhaving not looked at it for a
while and gone through thisexperience of finishing this and
now what you're about to embarkon as this gets, you know, kind
of released into the world, howyour, uh, views of it could
change in, in either a positiveor negative ways.
(10:08):
That'll be interesting.
Yeah.
I'm gonna work backwards fromthe book for one second because
I, I loved your acknowledgementspage so much because it is one
of the most, um, eclectic anddiverse group that you talk
about.
Being your inspiration and, andalso just kind of what you used
when you were writing this bookfrom, from Joan Didion to
(10:29):
Charlie XCX, and I loved that somuch.
'cause it also just spokevolumes just about you.
It's almost like going intosomeone's apartment and seeing
their bookshelf and seeing whatthey actually read or breaking
into their Spotify playlist tosee what they actually listen
to, gives indications of kind oflike who you're dealing with.
So I loved that.
But you also.
(10:50):
went to school with one of myfavorite authors from, from last
year, August Thompson.
Rob Franklin (10:55):
Oh, yeah.
Brett Benner (10:55):
His book was so beautiful and glorious and I, it
was one of my favorite booksfrom last year, so when I saw
that, I was like.
Wait, what?
And he's such a great guy, so II love that, that you two are,
are friends and had that, that,you know, shared experience
together.
Rob Franklin (11:10):
Yeah.
August left my house two hoursago.
He was crashing in my basementfor the basketball days.
Brett Benner (11:15):
That's hilarious.
Rob Franklin (11:16):
Yeah, August is, is one of my good friends.
And yeah, I mean, I feel like Ireally kind of lucked out with
my MFA cohort and had a bunchof, but the writers I really,
whose work I really loved, butalso who count as some of my
closest friends now and, yeah, Imean, I, I I I love that you
first of all read theacknowledgements and that
always, um, you kind of,responded to this sort of, LEC
(11:39):
eclecticism of Who really feellike the kind of spiritual
references for this book andlike, you know, it's funny, I
was, I was putting together.
My ex-boyfriend was like, oh,you should make a playlist as
like a kind of companion Yeah.
For the novel.
And I was kind of doing that asan exercise and like even that
(12:00):
playlist is it's Nina Simone andit's Solange and it's Charlie
XCX and uh, it's Jay-Z andTupac.
It is such a kind of wideranging.
Set of kind of textures andsounds, and styles, which all I,
I felt all of them I think whenI was sort of like writing this
book and
Brett Benner (12:20):
Yeah.
And it, and all very evocativeof what is of the book.
Okay.
So, for our listeners, do youhave kind of an elevator pitch
for the book?
Rob Franklin (12:28):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
I mean, the book, great BlackHope it Follows, A Black Gay 20
something named Smith, who inthe aftermath of in arrest for
cocaine possession in theHamptons has to confront his
relationship to race classaddiction and grief in the
dizzying aftermath of his bestfriend's mysterious death.
Brett Benner (12:51):
Okay.
So where I wanna launch off, wekind of start the beginning when
he, this arrest is happening,but do you think for him, L'S
death was the kind of catalystfor everything for him in terms
of.
For lack of a better word, hisspin out.
Rob Franklin (13:07):
Hmm.
Yeah.
You know, it's interestingbecause I, I did consider, and
at various points, I thinkduring the, the kind of like
revision process, it wassuggested maybe to start with
Elle's death and like see thatscene in the kind of like
present timeline of the novelrather than through flashback.
(13:27):
And for me.
I knew that I wanted to startwith his arrest in part because
like, I mean, just the way thatthe kind of court dates are
structured, it just felt like a,maybe like a kind of cleaner
structure for me, to think aboutthe novel and like have
basically, I mean, those threecourt dates that, that we see,
be kind of spread across the,the novel.
(13:50):
But I also, I mean, I, Idefinitely think of.
Elle's death as the catalyst,but also like a catalyst that
also is forcing him to reflecton existing, kind of like
structural issues in his life.
Which are like the way that thekind of like black
respectability politics thathe's been raised in have kept
(14:12):
him from in some ways reallyknowing himself, really knowing
what it is he wants, and have.
Caused him to kind of likeperform a version of himself
that he thinks is like,palatable to various audiences,
in a way that's like ultimatelykind of self-destructive and,
and totally, confining and likewould have found, would've come
(14:38):
to a head even were it not forElle's death, but I think Elle's
death and the kind of mediaresponse to it.
Highlights a lot of these kindof, issues in, in this like
incendiary way that he, he can'tlook away from.
And definitely kind ofaccelerates his own descent.
Brett Benner (14:58):
Yeah, it's code switching and he's very adept at
that in, in such a variety ofsituations.
And watching him, the differencebetween, and we all do it, look,
everyone does it.
So I think it's such anidentifiable thing in terms of
who he is with his parentsversus who he is with this group
of friends versus who he is withanother group of friends.
It's such an interestingnarrative to me because, the
(15:20):
narrative as an observer becausenot only are these things
happening to him, but we'reentering his world and kind of
what he's perceiving, and it'salmost this commentary on
everything that's going onaround him.
Hmm.
And I found that so interesting.
Was that something you wanted tointentionally do?
Rob Franklin (15:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's interesting
with like the Smith character.
you know, in, in many ways, likewe have a lot of biographical
similarities, but he is a muchmore, I think he's a much more
passive character.
He's a much more passive personthan I am, and like I do really
like writing from thatperspective because it's like
(16:03):
when someone Is really observingthe scene and like can be a kind
of cipher through which to lookat these worlds.
Yeah.
You're, you're as a writer maybeable to inhabit a more kind of
like almost anthropological,point of view.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so yeah, like I, Idefinitely wanted his, you know,
we're in third person, but like,kind of in Smith's perspective
(16:24):
for.
For the whole of the novel and,wanted that perspective to be a
way to look at these differentworlds and like watch the way
that he shifts and his kind oflike performance of himself
shifts in these differentspaces.
Brett Benner (16:37):
I have to pull the book up for a second because,
There's a whole section talkingabout this idea of.
As a, as a black man to be good.
And it says Smith had fallenwithout question into the
opposite camp.
Try hards.
Gluttons for whom good was notgood enough.
He wanted it all and alwaysright.
Now, do you think this desire isa product of his.
(17:00):
Upbringing and being black and,and being, told to excel and be
better than, or do you think itwas part of that it was being
gay or do you think it was anintersection of both?
Rob Franklin (17:10):
Yeah, I mean, I think definitely an inter, an
intersection of both where, youknow, with that, with basically
like my parents' generation orSmith's parents' generation,
like so much of the kind ofwhat.
Their children were schooled in,was like the kind of like twice
as good ethos.
(17:30):
Like you've gotta, you've gottabe twice as good to get half as
much.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and with Smith, I mean he,he grows up in this kind of like
upper middle class black familyin Atlanta, but then he goes to
a kind of conservative whitesouthern prep school.
Where both his race and his likequeerness are very other.
(17:51):
And yeah, I mean I definitelythink when a person feels
completely other or alienated,there's a kind of,, almost like
f you impulse to be, to beexcellent, and to be undeniable.
And I think that Smith feelsthat very strongly.
And like that section of thebook that you read from, it
talks about other.
(18:12):
Black students who are kind ofin those same spaces, basically
picking one of two paths whereeither they picked this yeah,
twice as good path.
and they created a publicpersona that was like kind of
predicated on like intellect,cleanliness.
Like all of these things thatare, are, that are kind of like
(18:33):
anti-black ecosystem.
Um, wants to tell us like, blackblackness is not right.
Right.
Or, or they kind of rebelled andlike in that rebellion, kind of
go into a kind ofself-destructive direction where
they say, I am not going to,exist within and exceed the
(18:53):
expectations of this kind oflike white ecosystem.
You know, I'm, I'm going to beunapologetically whatever.
And yeah, I mean, I think SmithSmith sees himself very much as
somebody who like chose one ofthose paths until this arrest,
in one second sort of like putshim on this other track.
Brett Benner (19:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so crazy.
He is referred to at one point,it, it's either by Carolyn, I'm
not remembering who says itabout him, but says,, he's
either an intellectual dom or anemotional one.
Yes.
Yourself.
Do you view yourself as eitherone of those things?
Rob Franklin (19:34):
Um, yeah.
So that's a, a flashback to thel character describes him as
Yes.
Um, and that's funny.
So that is pulled from my friendBrandon once did say that about
me.
Oh, really?
So that is, that is, I mean,maybe not in exactly those
words, but I, I sort of putthat, yeah.
That was pulled, uh, uh, pulledfrom my real life.
(19:55):
Bit of dialogue.
Um, yeah, the idea and was it asa
Brett Benner (19:58):
ribbing or was it, or is it like a dig?
What do you think?
Or it could have been the same.
Rob Franklin (20:02):
I think it was both.
I think it was ribbing, but Ithink he was kind of like, in
the context that it's used inthe book,, Smith Smith actually,
like, he thinks it's sort of funto be, smarter in quote, quote,
unquote, than his partner, hislike romantic partner.
Yeah.
And then else like, you know,you're kind of an intellectual
(20:22):
dom or emotional if you want toget dark.
Um, I mean, I hope I'm not anemotional dom and I think with,
with age, I definitely like ammuch more drawn to people who I
think are.
Smarter than me.
Romantically, I think, yeah,like that, that is probably,,
(20:43):
maybe a holdover from like mymid twenties.
Mm-hmm.
That like desire to feel in someways superior.
And like how that can create allthese like messed up power
dynamics in a kind of sexual,romantic relationship.
Brett Benner (20:58):
It's interesting 'cause he also says, Smith says,
there's a quote, he's not somuch interested sexually and
gratification as being desired,which almost plays into some of
this in a way, what you'retalking about a little bit.
Rob Franklin (21:08):
Totally.
Brett Benner (21:09):
And part of that could speak to youth.
As well, because of how much weput on, uh, youth and beauty
and, and the objectivity ofthat.
Rob Franklin (21:19):
Yeah.
You know, again, it is kind oflike his, like golden boy
syndrome of, of just likewanting to get validation,
wanting to get this sort ofexternal validation.
And, and also, you know, I meanthat chapter is very explicitly
talking about his relationshipto his queerness, his
relationship to like sexual andromantic relationships with
(21:42):
primarily white men and like,yeah, this, this maybe his kind
of like core wound in that areabeing, being a feeling of like
being undesired or being other.
Like with even within the gaycommunity, which is something we
see in a couple scenes, um, inGreat Black Hope is like Smith
feeling kind of alienated amonggroups of, of mostly white, cis
(22:06):
gay men.
And so yeah, like this desire tojust feel desired, I think is,
is really kind of born from thatinferiority complex that then
can present as like wanting tofeel superior to a lot of people
that he's like in relationshipwith rather than kind of.
Meeting them in a place of likemutual respect and trust.
(22:29):
Like I don't think he feels ableto trust a lot of his kind of
partners.
Brett Benner (22:35):
Yeah, and it's interesting because when I was
thinking back on the book, Ithought, whose closest friends
are all women?
And the way he relates to mostmen or talks about many men in
the book is in terms of likefucking, or sexually, rather
than having.
You know, later there are, um,you have some non-binary
characters who he hasfriendships with, but there's no
(22:58):
one that I would say, like, saycisgendered males who are in his
life, who are prevalent, lemmeput it that way.
They're in his life.
No, totally not as a centralizedcharacter, which I think is
interesting, but also I, whatyou talk about, I think is very
resonant in terms of havingconversations with.
Black friends and black gay malefriends who've talked about that
(23:19):
same thing in terms of the kindof, uh, invisibility.
And we've heard a lot of talkabout that and feeling invisible
in kind of the white, gayculture and in terms of
attraction and, um, so it's,it's, it's really interesting.
Rob Franklin (23:36):
Yeah, and I, I feel like something that.
You know, it's a conversation Ithink I have with like black gay
friends, but I, I don't seerepresented a ton in media.
Um, and I, I, I think that likeboth in the queer community with
race and then in the blackcommunity with class, because we
are, are like communities thatare often under attack from like
(23:58):
outside, there's a desire to notlike foreground.
Like infighting.
Yeah.
Um, and to not basically likeair our dirty laundry.
And I mean, I, I definitely seethat, especially in the black
community with, with class like,a desire to kind of deny a, a
very prevalent, Divisions alongkind of class lines.
(24:23):
And so, yeah, I mean, I, I thinkpart of what I wanted to do with
this book was to like, makethose conversations visible.
Brett Benner (24:30):
He's a great relationship generally with his
parents.
And that's the other thing.
First of all, I loved that bothhis father and Smith are, are
called just the Smiths.
And I love that you did that.
Rob Franklin (24:42):
Yeah, like that ha calling them the David Smiths.
Um, like in unison, like havingthem when they go out to the
Hamptons for these court dates,you know, sleep in twin beds
next to one another.
I do think that there is, Imean, maybe I'm also like, I
dunno that I was actuallythinking about this when I wrote
it, but there is a way thatlike.
(25:02):
You know, his dad being his kindof, often his like companion or
always his companion for thesecourt dates, like the court
system kind of diminishes thisman who's like, this big
impressive presence in the worldthat he exists in.
Mm-hmm.
Like they both kind of just likebecome boys.
Like when confronted with.
(25:23):
The, the court system.
And so you know, in, in a wayreferring to them as like the
Smiths or the David Smiths andlike having them Yeah.
Like sleeping in these like twinbeds.
Like they almost be like twins.
Brett Benner (25:34):
How old are your parents?
Rob Franklin (25:35):
My parents are, I guess my dad's in his early
seventies.
He's 71.
My mom's like 66.
Brett Benner (25:41):
So they're young.
Are you close with your parents?
Rob Franklin (25:43):
I'm close with everyone in my immediate family.
I mean, yeah, I, I obviouslylike there have been growing
pains.
Sure.
Um, but I, I would say, I'mreally lucky.
I have really great supportiveparents and like I do, even when
I.
I have had issues with them.
(26:04):
I like do immensely kind ofrespect and admire them.
And my sister, is like one of myclosest friends and, and I'm,
I'm very, very close to, andI'm, I'm also very close to my
brother.
Brett Benner (26:17):
I asked because I thought about like the sexuality
of the character and it's not anissue with like the parents.
Which.
I was, I was glad to see, I wasglad that it wasn't also that
narrative as well I just thoughtthat was, that was refreshing.
Because I know sometimes for mepersonally, anytime I get a, a,
a narrative with a queercharacter, I mean, I love a
coming of age story, but for solong there were so many coming
(26:39):
of age stories of like thetrauma of coming out.
And I was like, I, I sometimeswant us as, readers and.
Writers to go beyond that nowand like just present people who
are queer as a, as a, uh, facetof their first personality, not
just the definingcharacteristic, you know?
Rob Franklin (26:56):
Totally.
I mean, that has definitely beensomething that people have,
again, something I don't knowthat I intentionally wrote into
the book, but I.
Read, maybe it was like a goodReads review, which I know I'm
not supposed to be reading, butsometimes I do.
No, don't.
It's hard not to.
I know.
But I think someone did saysomething that was like, I like
that the character, you know, isqueer, but that's not like the
kind of like defining facet ofhis personhood.
(27:19):
And I mean, you know, the bookis still very much about
identity and about like identitymarkers, but very foregrounded.
In, in at least this moment inhis life is his kind of like
race and class identity.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
And so his, his queerness?
Yeah.
Like his or his, like being agay man, like doesn't really, we
(27:40):
don't get into,.
Maybe some of the kind ofconventional like tropes of,
trauma or alienation from thefamily, in the coming out
narrative, which I mean, youknow, I, I think like that is
still a lot of people'sexperience and there's, there's
a lot of absolutely, uh,validity to writing about that.
But, you know, that wasn'treally my experience and that
wasn't really something that I,I had a great deal of interest
(28:01):
in, in like looking at orportraying.
Brett Benner (28:03):
One of the other things that's so great in the
book, and it's such a, a vividportrayal is, is how you color
the city.
Hmm.
It really much comes out like acharacter in itself and, two of
the most vivid things.
And I love a book that can pullon, real things that make me
suddenly put the book down andlook it up to be like, is he, is
this just made up or is thisreal?
One of which is the MoMA exhibitthat, which, uh, is so fantastic
(28:26):
that Tilda Winson did and Iremember that so distinctly.
I mean, I didn't see it live,but I remember that going on and
being like, what the fuck?
Also, the Keith Herring drawing,which I did not know about.
And it's so funny because I gothis biography, the Brad Gooch
biography, like the end of lastyear, and I haven't read it yet.
(28:48):
Um, but I immediately had tolook it up because it's so
descriptive and I was like, oh,Keith, there's that part of that
drawing.
I loved it so much and I willtell, like the listeners and
viewers here today that.
Yeah, after or during readingthe books, they should
absolutely go to your Instagrambecause you have such incredible
photos of friends and partiesthat look literally like they're
(29:13):
pulled from this novel or viceversa.
Rob Franklin (29:15):
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
I mean, yeah, I think, myinterest Yeah.
With like kind of creating a NewYork There's a balance of, there
are a lot of places that reallyexist in New York that are in
the book, like say like the Oon,that are these kind of like
iconic New York institutionsthat I think gave, I wanted
people who live here who havespent time here I wanted it to
(29:38):
really feel like New York andlike I wanted them to kind of, I
definitely wanted it to be likegeographically accurate and feel
true to the city and, and.
Especially like that time, thekind of like 2010s in, in New
York.
And then there are also placesthat are, for instance, like the
restaurant Nuccio, where wehave, um, we have a scene like
(29:58):
the opening of this restaurantis invented, you know, feels
kind of loosely inspired by likea Budokan or like these sort of
like cavernous, like meatpacking district restaurants
that are like park club apart,like.
Overpriced whatever restaurant.
And like wanting to have funwith creating my own and like
(30:20):
make it so kind of cavernous andluxurious and like have like
this like secret lounge in theback.
And, and so like having, havinga balance of places that I
invented.
That still felt kind of liketrue to the city, but also like
gave me a a degree of just like,freedom to, to create.
Brett Benner (30:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Totally.
I was almost gonna say, are yousomeone who is a nightlife
person?
Are you someone who, has alwaysenjoyed that?
Rob Franklin (30:47):
Yeah, I mean I definitely used to be like, when
I first moved to the city and Ilike, was, was working in, in
management consulting, First ofall, I was 22.
I had a lot of energy and likealso in part because I was not
that good at that job, I wasoften unstaffed.
And when you're unstaffed inconsulting, like you're still
just getting paid a salary, um,but you're not having to go to
(31:10):
into work every day.
And I was going out a lot.
Yeah.
I mean I was definitely likegoing to, to kind of like the
clubs.
And now, you know, I'm in mythirties.
I'm less interested going to a,a kind of club though.
I, I certainly still willoccasionally.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I feellike everyone who is in New York
has gotta have that, that erawhere they like never cook at
(31:33):
home and, you know, if they're,if they're able to make it work,
are out five nights a week and,and kind of just saying yes to
everything,
Brett Benner (31:42):
Well, and some of the city is designed because
you're living in smaller spaces,so you're gathering in larger
ones.
I remember first moving to LosAngeles and being like.
Oh, people go to each other'shouses now.
I understand.
People would've a lot moredinner parties and, that's where
you would do it.
But New York was always, youknow, meet me here at this time.
I'm just going home to changeand get a shower and then I'll
(32:02):
meet you out wherever.
I wanted just to veer for onesecond from the book and, I
wanted to ask you about Art forBlack Lives.
Can you talk about that for asecond?
Rob Franklin (32:12):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, so Art for Black Lives is a,now we're kind of on hiatus,
but, a nonprofit initiative.
That basically allows artists todonate prints for sale.
And then we donate all of theproceeds to organizations that
provide material support to theblack trans community.
And it was kind of born out of,I started it with my friend
(32:35):
Camila, who's, a curator inBerlin, um, summer of 2020.
So kind of shortly after.
The George Floyd protests, sortof amid, there were a few
projects like this that we'dseen,, most of them that were,
that were basically ways toraise money for bail funds for
mm-hmm.
Protesters.
(32:56):
And we saw like a kind of longerterm, more like sustainable.
Version of the, the kind of likenonprofit print sale, yeah.
As viable where we were sort of,I think, you know, in that
moment, in that chaotic pandemicand like protest full summer,
(33:19):
you know, I was home in Atlantawith, with, at my parents' house
and like going to protest, but,but kind of being like, I dunno,
what, what can I.
Do in this moment.
Yeah.
Um, and in conversations with myfriend Camila, we were kind of
like, you know, one thing we, weboth do have is like the
(33:40):
eyeballs of a lot of likewealthy young people.
And like one thing we can do iskind of redirect resources in a,
in a real way.
And so, yeah.
And so we started this, thisproject, art for Black Lives,
which, we ran kind of regularlyfor the first, maybe like two
and a half years.
We did, five or six rounds andworked with a ton of great
(34:02):
artists like Marilyn Minter andLaurie Simmons, Simmons and a, a
bunch of people I'm, I'm amassive fan of, and we're able
to raise like a quarter of amillion dollars for, for these
organizations.
So, yeah, I mean, I, I stillthink it's, it's such a.
It's such a great fundraisingmodel and I think in the future,
(34:22):
you know, we kind of went onhiatus'cause she had a baby and,
and like became a director at agallery.
I sold this book and needed tokind of focus on, on getting
this past the finish line.
But, I hope we can kind ofcontinue to, to use.
The, the sort of network we'vebuilt, in, in new ways.
'cause yeah, we also got to dolike an artist residency, um,
(34:44):
and, and a few other things thathave, have allowed us to kind of
expand the vision of what theproject could be.
That's so cool.
So yeah, it is really cool.
Thank you.
Brett Benner (34:53):
My last question, is there anything you're reading
right now that you're loving?
Rob Franklin (34:56):
Such a good question.
So I.
I think I'm, I may rereadaudition, which is, oh my gosh,
Katie Kamara's new book, whichI, I love so much.
Um,
Brett Benner (35:06):
it's Talk about unpacking God.
Rob Franklin (35:08):
Yeah, and I think it's, it Bears rereading like I,
so I went to her, I think Imentioned, I went to her reading
last night and I'd read a galleyof it in November and didn't
really know anything about it atthe time.
And like, you know, withoutgiving anything away, I do feel
like now that I kind of.
Know the structure of it, evenif I don't totally like,
(35:28):
understand it, it bears likerereading.
Um,
Brett Benner (35:32):
I think I said the exact, I said the exact same
thing.
I was like, I don't know exactlythat I'm comprehending
everything that's happeninghere, but I think this is
incredible.
Like, I was just like, like someof the, and I was like, uh, oh
my God.
'cause you know, there's thatpoint when you're like, wait.
What?
Rob Franklin (35:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brett Benner (35:50):
And she is a master of brevity and getting to
so much, so succinctly with solittle.
It's really genius.
Rob Franklin (35:57):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
She's one of my, one of myfavorite writers.
Um.
Yeah, I love her writing somuch.
And, and so I think I'm, I'mgonna reread that.
Um, I'm also reading my friendAlexis OK Yoo's, uh, memoir
slash like book of reportage,um, called Blessings and
Disasters, A Story of Alabama.
And it's about, I.
(36:18):
Do you, have you heard this?
No, I just, I just,
Brett Benner (36:20):
well, I only because when I was on your
Instagram Yeah.
I saw their face and I was like,gosh, she's so interesting.
And I went down this rabbithole, and so then I started to
follow them.
Yeah.
And yeah, I saw the books comingout in August, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Precisely.
Yeah.
Rob Franklin (36:36):
It's, it's really beautiful.
I mean, it, it reminds me a tonof.
Of Didion's writing about theSouth.
Brett Benner (36:41):
Mm.
Rob Franklin (36:42):
Um, but it's this kind of, you know, Alexis is a,
is a reporter for the NewYorker, um, and like has largely
written about conflict regionsin, in Sub-Saharan Africa., And
then this is, I mean, it's amuch more personal piece of
writing than I've, I've.
Really seen from, from them.
Like, um, yeah, it, it's a mixof the kind of history of
(37:04):
Alabama and like the history oftheir family.
Um, and it's, you know, verysumptuously written and, and
I'm, I'm really enjoying that.
Brett Benner (37:14):
Wow.
Okay.
Now I have to get it for sure.
'cause I, I literally, I lookedit up and I wrote it down and I,
so I was like, okay, that'sawesome.
Well, Rob, this was fantastic.
You're great and your book isfantastic.
Please everyone go get it.
By independent if you can.
Do you know who's doing youraudio?
Rob Franklin (37:32):
Yeah, it's Justice Smith.
Who did you see?
Oh, I saw the TV glow.
Oh my god.
Oh my God.
He's fantastic.
Brett Benner (37:38):
I'm obsessed with Justice Smith.
I'm obsessed with him.
Rob Franklin (37:41):
It was totally kismet because I had seen that
movie like the week before.
They sent me the options for theaudio book and like, otherwise I
wouldn't have really known, Ihadn't really seen his work
otherwise.
But I loved that movie and Iloved that performance and like
as soon as I saw the movie.
But I had started to think abouthim for the O character.
(38:04):
Yeah.
If like an adaptation ever wereto get made.
Yeah.
Um.
And then he was on the list forpotential audiobook readers.
And I, I immediately was like,that's,
Brett Benner (38:14):
oh my God, I love that so much.
And I can't wait tell mybusiness partner because she's
obsessed with him.
But also, do you remember therewas a really short-lived, HBO
Max?
Well, it was on, was it just HBOthen series?
I think it was calledGeneration.
Generation.
Rob Franklin (38:26):
Yeah.
I watched, I watched some ofthat and they, and Justice is
also great on that.
Yeah,
Brett Benner (38:30):
I'm, he was so riveting and he's just
beautiful, first of all.
Yeah.
I mean, he's just.
Stunning.
But he's also so incrediblytalented.
But oh my God, now I have tohear it.
'cause I just think he's.
He's just next level talented,so that's fantastic.
Rob Franklin (38:46):
Well, yeah, the sample's up on Spotify, so
listen to it.
Okay.
No, no, totally,
Brett Benner (38:51):
totally.
Well, again, thank you for beinghere.
I'm really excited for you.
Rob Franklin (38:55):
You so much for having me.
Brett Benner (38:56):
Thank you again, Rob, and if you liked this
conversation and otherconversations I've had as well,
please consider liking andsubscribing to the podcast.
And if you have the time, whatwould really be helpful is if
you could give me five stars andperhaps a review.
All of those things help makethe podcast more visible to
other people so it can continueto expand.
(39:17):
I'd really appreciate it.
I will see you all next weekwith another two episodes for my
double feature, June, and I'llbe back with Jess Walters for
his new book.
So Far Gone.
Thanks everybody.
Hello everybody.
It's Brett Benner and welcome orwelcome back to another episode
of Behind the Stack, where todayI'm sitting down with author Rob
Franklin for his debut novel,great Black Hope.
A little bit about Rob.
He was born and raised inAtlanta.
He's a writer of fiction,criticism and poetry, and is
co-founder of Art for BlackLives fiction fellow.
(00:22):
And finalist for the New EnglandReview Emerging Writer Prize.
He has published work in NewEngland, review, Prairie
Schooner and the Rumpus amongothers.
Franklin holds a BA fromStanford University and an MFA
from N NYU's Creative WritingProgram.
He lives in Brooklyn and teacheswriting at the School of Visual
(00:43):
Arts.
So now please enjoy this episodeof Behind the Stack.
I'm really thrilled to besitting down today with author
Rob Franklin, whose debut novelGreat Black Hope is, it's so
good.
It's been a while since I'veseen such crazy pre-publication
(01:04):
like, hype on a book, and Ithink it's so warranted.
So congratulations first off,and, and, and thank you so much
for being here.
Rob Franklin (01:13):
Of course.
Thank you so much for having me,Brett.
Brett Benner (01:15):
Before we launch into the book, and there's so
much to unpack with Smith, I'mjust so curious.
So you grew up in Atlanta?
Rob Franklin (01:23):
Yes, I did.
Grew up in Atlanta and now havebeen in New York for coming up
on 10 years.
Brett Benner (01:29):
Were you an only child?
Rob Franklin (01:31):
No, I have an older sister and a half brother
who's like 10 years older.
Yeah, so he grew up in Chicagoand then my sister and I grew up
in Atlanta.
Brett Benner (01:41):
Okay.
Well so then let me ask you thisquestion.
'cause when I was trying to likedeep dive on you last night, and
I love doing this to like findout information about an author,
now is your dad, does he shareyour name?
Rob Franklin (01:52):
Yes, he does.
Brett Benner (01:54):
Okay, so he was in Morehouse that's him, right?
Rob Franklin (01:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So he was the president ofMorehouse College, which
applicable to the book and likevery.
Yeah, openly.
The, the family resembles myfamily in many ways and like,
um, the father in Great BlackHope is the, the president of a
fictional historically blackcollege, which is definitely
kind of inspired by my dad'srole at Morehouse.
Brett Benner (02:19):
I was looking at your dad and I.
Well, well, now that I know it'syour dad, but I was looking at
his picture and I was like, thattotally can be.
I'm like, that's toocoincidental.
It's too coincidental.
So I Oh, that's so cool.
Were you always a reader whenyou were young?
Rob Franklin (02:34):
Yeah.
I mean, well, so no, my parents,my parents would say, especially
my mom, like.
She really struggled to get meto read when I was a kid, and I
mean, she jokes slash justremembers because it's just a
fact that like the only books Iwould read for a long time were.
(02:56):
Some, some genius in marketinghad figured out that they could
just print the scripts from theKenan NAL show, on Nick
Nickelodeon, just put them inbook form and sell them as
books.
And so for many years that waslike the only thing she could
get me to read.
And then I, you know, like minimillennials, sort of Harry
(03:18):
Potter really like, kind of mademe a reader.
And.
Then after that, I mean, I thinkstarting really like middle high
school, I was a big reader, andkind of like started to find my
own sort of like reading tastein, in high school.
Brett Benner (03:32):
And then when did the poetry start for you?
Did you discover poetry as areader first and then begin to,
to experiment and write ityourself?
Or how did that happen?
Rob Franklin (03:41):
Yeah, I mean, it really came through.
Um, a good friend of mine'ssophomore year of high school
gave me this book called Crushby Richard Syken.
Mm-hmm.
Which, I mean, it's stillprobably my favorite book, or,
or one of them.
And it's a book of poetry.
It's about kind of young loveand like a queer relationship.
And it had this sense of like,urgency.
(04:04):
It was very like formallydistinct and exciting to me.
And it just felt, it felt sodifferent from the kind of like
canonical poetry we were readingin English class.
And so that was the first thingthat like really made me want to
write.
And like soon thereafter, Ibasically started writing what I
would call basically likeExactly mimicking Richard second
(04:24):
style, you know, kind of copycatpoetry.
Yeah.
And like, you know, I think thatthere's something to be said
for.
Doing that as an exercise, youknow, like Didion talks about
like kind of consuming all ofErnest Hemingway and, and like
rewriting his sentences to kindof like figure out how they work
and what their rhythms were.
(04:44):
And, and I think I really didthat with, with that book.
Like I tried to kind ofreplicate that style and got
pretty good at, at kind of likeparroting it.
And it was only once I thenlike.
Continued reading poetry and gotreally into like Claudia Rankin
and Mark Doty and, and a bunchof other poets that I, you know,
(05:05):
I had more references.
Brett Benner (05:07):
Yeah,
Rob Franklin (05:07):
yeah.
Kind of in the bucket.
Um, and slowly but surely,really when I was kind of
starting to go into college, Ithink I started to forge
something more like a voice, um,that felt, that felt like my
own.
Brett Benner (05:20):
You went to Stanford, correct?
Rob Franklin (05:22):
Yes, I did.
Brett Benner (05:23):
And, what was your major?
Rob Franklin (05:24):
So I studied political science, and at the
time I, I wanted to be ajournalist.
I was very like, I mean, I toldpeople I wanted to be a
journalist, I think.
Brett Benner (05:34):
Do you think that was your, was that parental
influence as well?
Rob Franklin (05:36):
I think, yeah.
Like I knew that I wanted towrite and the only sort of
career path that I knew.
Involving writing that was likea sort of stable career.
Or at least it seemed it at thetime, was journalism.
And, so I was, majoring inpolitical science and then
taking creative writing classesjust kind of for fun, and
(05:58):
eventually realized I had enoughclasses to make a minor out of
it.
Mm.
So I minored in creative writingwith a, with a focus in poetry.
And then I was interning forpapers and I interned for like
NPR for Buzzfeed, and I thinkslowly but surely, was kind of
realizing that actually thething that I liked about writing
(06:19):
was like making sentencespretty, not.
Not like reporting.
And therefore that likejournalism probably was not
actually the path for me.
Um, and also, I mean, that wouldwould've been from 2011 through
2015.
So really when journalism waskind of undergoing a
reinvention,, I mean, it was areally changing landscape and I
(06:39):
was also just realizing that itwasn't kind of what I actually
wanted to do.
So ended up then like completelypivoting when I, when I
graduated.
Brett Benner (06:48):
Okay.
And then you did your MFA at,NYU?
Rob Franklin (06:51):
Yes.
Yeah, so I then after college.
I mean, I worked in likebusiness consulting for a couple
years, which I hated.
And then I worked in tech for acouple years, which was fine and
like gave me more time to kindof write nights and weekends.
And was always kind of workingon, actually at the time, a
(07:11):
different novel set in Berlin.
And kind of told myself if Icould, if I could finish a draft
of that, I would let myselfpursue it full time.
And I did, and I, I moved toBerlin and, and worked on that.
And while I was in Berlin, Isort of decided I wanted a
little bit more structure andrigor, to like a writing
practice.
And I decided to apply for, forMFAs and then ended up, as you
(07:32):
said it, NYU.
Brett Benner (07:33):
Okay, two things.
So I'm so curious what happenedto that novel?
Are you ever gonna go back toit?
Rob Franklin (07:39):
So that's very much up, up for discussion now.
I mean, I, I mean, I.
I literally, I went to a readingof my thesis advisor, Katie
Kitura last night, who shares anagent with me and I was talking
to our agent and being like, ohyeah, we should get lunch and
like talk about the next book.
'Cause I do have an idea for anext one, like a new idea, but I
(08:00):
also haven't really shown anyof, I haven't showed like my
agents or editor this other.
Complete manuscript, but it, itwould need a substantial amount
of work.
Yeah.
You know, I started it when Iwas 24, 23.
Um, and at this point, I haven'teven read it for five years.
So I am, I'm curious whatthey'll say.
(08:22):
I mean, I, I do have a lot oflove for that book, but I, I
realized when I was in my MFA,like.
And I, I was working on thefirst draft of Great Black Hope
my first year and bringing intoworkshop the existing draft of
this Berlin book.
And, you know, it was, peoplewere responding well to it, but
(08:44):
I was kind of realizing like, ina way the Berlin book felt like
something someone else couldhave written and Now very
excited to read Aria Arbor'sbook.
Good Girl.
Which, um, great, you know,yeah.
I've heard really good thingsabout, is kind of like a youth
culture Berlin novel and youknow, like she grew up there and
I think it, it sounds like it'sso specific to her experience
(09:06):
and great Black Hope is thatbook for me, like, great By Hope
is a book.
Yeah.
No, it's, it's funny, they,
Brett Benner (09:10):
they can almost be companion pieces in some ways
and they're very differentstories, but because of the age,
a lot of it, yeah.
Rob Franklin (09:17):
Yeah, where it's just like, I can't imagine
anyone else writing this bookin, at least in the particular
way that I did.
And, and so like, I think thatfelt really good, especially for
a debut to be like,
Brett Benner (09:30):
yeah,
Rob Franklin (09:30):
here is a book that is also about the world
that I came from.
And is a sort of likeintroduction to.
You know, noxious like my, myvoice, but my kind of worldview.
So yeah, I, I think I'm stillfiguring out what will, what
will happen with that othermanuscript and, and just kind of
what's the next thing.
Brett Benner (09:48):
Well, it would be interesting to see if you decide
to kind of reopen it.
Just how you view it now afterhaving not looked at it for a
while and gone through thisexperience of finishing this and
now what you're about to embarkon as this gets, you know, kind
of released into the world, howyour, uh, views of it could
change in, in either a positiveor negative ways.
(10:08):
That'll be interesting.
Yeah.
I'm gonna work backwards fromthe book for one second because
I, I loved your acknowledgementspage so much because it is one
of the most, um, eclectic anddiverse group that you talk
about.
Being your inspiration and, andalso just kind of what you used
when you were writing this bookfrom, from Joan Didion to
(10:29):
Charlie XCX, and I loved that somuch.
'cause it also just spokevolumes just about you.
It's almost like going intosomeone's apartment and seeing
their bookshelf and seeing whatthey actually read or breaking
into their Spotify playlist tosee what they actually listen
to, gives indications of kind oflike who you're dealing with.
So I loved that.
But you also.
(10:50):
went to school with one of myfavorite authors from, from last
year, August Thompson.
Rob Franklin (10:55):
Oh, yeah.
Brett Benner (10:55):
His book was so beautiful and glorious and I, it
was one of my favorite booksfrom last year, so when I saw
that, I was like.
Wait, what?
And he's such a great guy, so II love that, that you two are,
are friends and had that, that,you know, shared experience
together.
Rob Franklin (11:10):
Yeah.
August left my house two hoursago.
He was crashing in my basementfor the basketball days.
Brett Benner (11:15):
That's hilarious.
Rob Franklin (11:16):
Yeah, August is, is one of my good friends.
And yeah, I mean, I feel like Ireally kind of lucked out with
my MFA cohort and had a bunchof, but the writers I really,
whose work I really loved, butalso who count as some of my
closest friends now and, yeah, Imean, I, I I I love that you
first of all read theacknowledgements and that
always, um, you kind of,responded to this sort of, LEC
(11:39):
eclecticism of Who really feellike the kind of spiritual
references for this book andlike, you know, it's funny, I
was, I was putting together.
My ex-boyfriend was like, oh,you should make a playlist as
like a kind of companion Yeah.
For the novel.
And I was kind of doing that asan exercise and like even that
(12:00):
playlist is it's Nina Simone andit's Solange and it's Charlie
XCX and uh, it's Jay-Z andTupac.
It is such a kind of wideranging.
Set of kind of textures andsounds, and styles, which all I,
I felt all of them I think whenI was sort of like writing this
book and
Brett Benner (12:20):
Yeah.
And it, and all very evocativeof what is of the book.
Okay.
So, for our listeners, do youhave kind of an elevator pitch
for the book?
Rob Franklin (12:28):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
I mean, the book, great BlackHope it Follows, A Black Gay 20
something named Smith, who inthe aftermath of in arrest for
cocaine possession in theHamptons has to confront his
relationship to race classaddiction and grief in the
dizzying aftermath of his bestfriend's mysterious death.
Brett Benner (12:51):
Okay.
So where I wanna launch off, wekind of start the beginning when
he, this arrest is happening,but do you think for him, L'S
death was the kind of catalystfor everything for him in terms
of.
For lack of a better word, hisspin out.
Rob Franklin (13:07):
Hmm.
Yeah.
You know, it's interestingbecause I, I did consider, and
at various points, I thinkduring the, the kind of like
revision process, it wassuggested maybe to start with
Elle's death and like see thatscene in the kind of like
present timeline of the novelrather than through flashback.
(13:27):
And for me.
I knew that I wanted to startwith his arrest in part because
like, I mean, just the way thatthe kind of court dates are
structured, it just felt like a,maybe like a kind of cleaner
structure for me, to think aboutthe novel and like have
basically, I mean, those threecourt dates that, that we see,
be kind of spread across the,the novel.
(13:50):
But I also, I mean, I, Idefinitely think of.
Elle's death as the catalyst,but also like a catalyst that
also is forcing him to reflecton existing, kind of like
structural issues in his life.
Which are like the way that thekind of like black
respectability politics thathe's been raised in have kept
(14:12):
him from in some ways reallyknowing himself, really knowing
what it is he wants, and have.
Caused him to kind of likeperform a version of himself
that he thinks is like,palatable to various audiences,
in a way that's like ultimatelykind of self-destructive and,
and totally, confining and likewould have found, would've come
(14:38):
to a head even were it not forElle's death, but I think Elle's
death and the kind of mediaresponse to it.
Highlights a lot of these kindof, issues in, in this like
incendiary way that he, he can'tlook away from.
And definitely kind ofaccelerates his own descent.
Brett Benner (14:58):
Yeah, it's code switching and he's very adept at
that in, in such a variety ofsituations.
And watching him, the differencebetween, and we all do it, look,
everyone does it.
So I think it's such anidentifiable thing in terms of
who he is with his parentsversus who he is with this group
of friends versus who he is withanother group of friends.
It's such an interestingnarrative to me because, the
(15:20):
narrative as an observer becausenot only are these things
happening to him, but we'reentering his world and kind of
what he's perceiving, and it'salmost this commentary on
everything that's going onaround him.
Hmm.
And I found that so interesting.
Was that something you wanted tointentionally do?
Rob Franklin (15:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's interesting
with like the Smith character.
you know, in, in many ways, likewe have a lot of biographical
similarities, but he is a muchmore, I think he's a much more
passive character.
He's a much more passive personthan I am, and like I do really
like writing from thatperspective because it's like
(16:03):
when someone Is really observingthe scene and like can be a kind
of cipher through which to lookat these worlds.
Yeah.
You're, you're as a writer maybeable to inhabit a more kind of
like almost anthropological,point of view.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so yeah, like I, Idefinitely wanted his, you know,
we're in third person, but like,kind of in Smith's perspective
(16:24):
for.
For the whole of the novel and,wanted that perspective to be a
way to look at these differentworlds and like watch the way
that he shifts and his kind oflike performance of himself
shifts in these differentspaces.
Brett Benner (16:37):
I have to pull the book up for a second because,
There's a whole section talkingabout this idea of.
As a, as a black man to be good.
And it says Smith had fallenwithout question into the
opposite camp.
Try hards.
Gluttons for whom good was notgood enough.
He wanted it all and alwaysright.
Now, do you think this desire isa product of his.
(17:00):
Upbringing and being black and,and being, told to excel and be
better than, or do you think itwas part of that it was being
gay or do you think it was anintersection of both?
Rob Franklin (17:10):
Yeah, I mean, I think definitely an inter, an
intersection of both where, youknow, with that, with basically
like my parents' generation orSmith's parents' generation,
like so much of the kind ofwhat.
Their children were schooled in,was like the kind of like twice
as good ethos.
(17:30):
Like you've gotta, you've gottabe twice as good to get half as
much.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and with Smith, I mean he,he grows up in this kind of like
upper middle class black familyin Atlanta, but then he goes to
a kind of conservative whitesouthern prep school.
Where both his race and his likequeerness are very other.
(17:51):
And yeah, I mean I definitelythink when a person feels
completely other or alienated,there's a kind of,, almost like
f you impulse to be, to beexcellent, and to be undeniable.
And I think that Smith feelsthat very strongly.
And like that section of thebook that you read from, it
talks about other.
(18:12):
Black students who are kind ofin those same spaces, basically
picking one of two paths whereeither they picked this yeah,
twice as good path.
and they created a publicpersona that was like kind of
predicated on like intellect,cleanliness.
Like all of these things thatare, are, that are kind of like
(18:33):
anti-black ecosystem.
Um, wants to tell us like, blackblackness is not right.
Right.
Or, or they kind of rebelled andlike in that rebellion, kind of
go into a kind ofself-destructive direction where
they say, I am not going to,exist within and exceed the
(18:53):
expectations of this kind oflike white ecosystem.
You know, I'm, I'm going to beunapologetically whatever.
And yeah, I mean, I think SmithSmith sees himself very much as
somebody who like chose one ofthose paths until this arrest,
in one second sort of like putshim on this other track.
Brett Benner (19:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so crazy.
He is referred to at one point,it, it's either by Carolyn, I'm
not remembering who says itabout him, but says,, he's
either an intellectual dom or anemotional one.
Yes.
Yourself.
Do you view yourself as eitherone of those things?
Rob Franklin (19:34):
Um, yeah.
So that's a, a flashback to thel character describes him as
Yes.
Um, and that's funny.
So that is pulled from my friendBrandon once did say that about
me.
Oh, really?
So that is, that is, I mean,maybe not in exactly those
words, but I, I sort of putthat, yeah.
That was pulled, uh, uh, pulledfrom my real life.
(19:55):
Bit of dialogue.
Um, yeah, the idea and was it asa
Brett Benner (19:58):
ribbing or was it, or is it like a dig?
What do you think?
Or it could have been the same.
Rob Franklin (20:02):
I think it was both.
I think it was ribbing, but Ithink he was kind of like, in
the context that it's used inthe book,, Smith Smith actually,
like, he thinks it's sort of funto be, smarter in quote, quote,
unquote, than his partner, hislike romantic partner.
Yeah.
And then else like, you know,you're kind of an intellectual
(20:22):
dom or emotional if you want toget dark.
Um, I mean, I hope I'm not anemotional dom and I think with,
with age, I definitely like ammuch more drawn to people who I
think are.
Smarter than me.
Romantically, I think, yeah,like that, that is probably,,
(20:43):
maybe a holdover from like mymid twenties.
Mm-hmm.
That like desire to feel in someways superior.
And like how that can create allthese like messed up power
dynamics in a kind of sexual,romantic relationship.
Brett Benner (20:58):
It's interesting 'cause he also says, Smith says,
there's a quote, he's not somuch interested sexually and
gratification as being desired,which almost plays into some of
this in a way, what you'retalking about a little bit.
Rob Franklin (21:08):
Totally.
Brett Benner (21:09):
And part of that could speak to youth.
As well, because of how much weput on, uh, youth and beauty
and, and the objectivity ofthat.
Rob Franklin (21:19):
Yeah.
You know, again, it is kind oflike his, like golden boy
syndrome of, of just likewanting to get validation,
wanting to get this sort ofexternal validation.
And, and also, you know, I meanthat chapter is very explicitly
talking about his relationshipto his queerness, his
relationship to like sexual andromantic relationships with
(21:42):
primarily white men and like,yeah, this, this maybe his kind
of like core wound in that areabeing, being a feeling of like
being undesired or being other.
Like with even within the gaycommunity, which is something we
see in a couple scenes, um, inGreat Black Hope is like Smith
feeling kind of alienated amonggroups of, of mostly white, cis
(22:06):
gay men.
And so yeah, like this desire tojust feel desired, I think is,
is really kind of born from thatinferiority complex that then
can present as like wanting tofeel superior to a lot of people
that he's like in relationshipwith rather than kind of.
Meeting them in a place of likemutual respect and trust.
(22:29):
Like I don't think he feels ableto trust a lot of his kind of
partners.
Brett Benner (22:35):
Yeah, and it's interesting because when I was
thinking back on the book, Ithought, whose closest friends
are all women?
And the way he relates to mostmen or talks about many men in
the book is in terms of likefucking, or sexually, rather
than having.
You know, later there are, um,you have some non-binary
characters who he hasfriendships with, but there's no
(22:58):
one that I would say, like, saycisgendered males who are in his
life, who are prevalent, lemmeput it that way.
They're in his life.
No, totally not as a centralizedcharacter, which I think is
interesting, but also I, whatyou talk about, I think is very
resonant in terms of havingconversations with.
Black friends and black gay malefriends who've talked about that
(23:19):
same thing in terms of the kindof, uh, invisibility.
And we've heard a lot of talkabout that and feeling invisible
in kind of the white, gayculture and in terms of
attraction and, um, so it's,it's, it's really interesting.
Rob Franklin (23:36):
Yeah, and I, I feel like something that.
You know, it's a conversation Ithink I have with like black gay
friends, but I, I don't seerepresented a ton in media.
Um, and I, I, I think that likeboth in the queer community with
race and then in the blackcommunity with class, because we
are, are like communities thatare often under attack from like
(23:58):
outside, there's a desire to notlike foreground.
Like infighting.
Yeah.
Um, and to not basically likeair our dirty laundry.
And I mean, I, I definitely seethat, especially in the black
community with, with class like,a desire to kind of deny a, a
very prevalent, Divisions alongkind of class lines.
(24:23):
And so, yeah, I mean, I, I thinkpart of what I wanted to do with
this book was to like, makethose conversations visible.
Brett Benner (24:30):
He's a great relationship generally with his
parents.
And that's the other thing.
First of all, I loved that bothhis father and Smith are, are
called just the Smiths.
And I love that you did that.
Rob Franklin (24:42):
Yeah, like that ha calling them the David Smiths.
Um, like in unison, like havingthem when they go out to the
Hamptons for these court dates,you know, sleep in twin beds
next to one another.
I do think that there is, Imean, maybe I'm also like, I
dunno that I was actuallythinking about this when I wrote
it, but there is a way thatlike.
(25:02):
You know, his dad being his kindof, often his like companion or
always his companion for thesecourt dates, like the court
system kind of diminishes thisman who's like, this big
impressive presence in the worldthat he exists in.
Mm-hmm.
Like they both kind of just likebecome boys.
Like when confronted with.
(25:23):
The, the court system.
And so you know, in, in a wayreferring to them as like the
Smiths or the David Smiths andlike having them Yeah.
Like sleeping in these like twinbeds.
Like they almost be like twins.
Brett Benner (25:34):
How old are your parents?
Rob Franklin (25:35):
My parents are, I guess my dad's in his early
seventies.
He's 71.
My mom's like 66.
Brett Benner (25:41):
So they're young.
Are you close with your parents?
Rob Franklin (25:43):
I'm close with everyone in my immediate family.
I mean, yeah, I, I obviouslylike there have been growing
pains.
Sure.
Um, but I, I would say, I'mreally lucky.
I have really great supportiveparents and like I do, even when
I.
I have had issues with them.
(26:04):
I like do immensely kind ofrespect and admire them.
And my sister, is like one of myclosest friends and, and I'm,
I'm very, very close to, andI'm, I'm also very close to my
brother.
Brett Benner (26:17):
I asked because I thought about like the sexuality
of the character and it's not anissue with like the parents.
Which.
I was, I was glad to see, I wasglad that it wasn't also that
narrative as well I just thoughtthat was, that was refreshing.
Because I know sometimes for mepersonally, anytime I get a, a,
a narrative with a queercharacter, I mean, I love a
coming of age story, but for solong there were so many coming
(26:39):
of age stories of like thetrauma of coming out.
And I was like, I, I sometimeswant us as, readers and.
Writers to go beyond that nowand like just present people who
are queer as a, as a, uh, facetof their first personality, not
just the definingcharacteristic, you know?
Rob Franklin (26:56):
Totally.
I mean, that has definitely beensomething that people have,
again, something I don't knowthat I intentionally wrote into
the book, but I.
Read, maybe it was like a goodReads review, which I know I'm
not supposed to be reading, butsometimes I do.
No, don't.
It's hard not to.
I know.
But I think someone did saysomething that was like, I like
that the character, you know, isqueer, but that's not like the
kind of like defining facet ofhis personhood.
(27:19):
And I mean, you know, the bookis still very much about
identity and about like identitymarkers, but very foregrounded.
In, in at least this moment inhis life is his kind of like
race and class identity.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
And so his, his queerness?
Yeah.
Like his or his, like being agay man, like doesn't really, we
(27:40):
don't get into,.
Maybe some of the kind ofconventional like tropes of,
trauma or alienation from thefamily, in the coming out
narrative, which I mean, youknow, I, I think like that is
still a lot of people'sexperience and there's, there's
a lot of absolutely, uh,validity to writing about that.
But, you know, that wasn'treally my experience and that
wasn't really something that I,I had a great deal of interest
(28:01):
in, in like looking at orportraying.
Brett Benner (28:03):
One of the other things that's so great in the
book, and it's such a, a vividportrayal is, is how you color
the city.
Hmm.
It really much comes out like acharacter in itself and, two of
the most vivid things.
And I love a book that can pullon, real things that make me
suddenly put the book down andlook it up to be like, is he, is
this just made up or is thisreal?
One of which is the MoMA exhibitthat, which, uh, is so fantastic
(28:26):
that Tilda Winson did and Iremember that so distinctly.
I mean, I didn't see it live,but I remember that going on and
being like, what the fuck?
Also, the Keith Herring drawing,which I did not know about.
And it's so funny because I gothis biography, the Brad Gooch
biography, like the end of lastyear, and I haven't read it yet.
(28:48):
Um, but I immediately had tolook it up because it's so
descriptive and I was like, oh,Keith, there's that part of that
drawing.
I loved it so much and I willtell, like the listeners and
viewers here today that.
Yeah, after or during readingthe books, they should
absolutely go to your Instagrambecause you have such incredible
photos of friends and partiesthat look literally like they're
(29:13):
pulled from this novel or viceversa.
Rob Franklin (29:15):
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
I mean, yeah, I think, myinterest Yeah.
With like kind of creating a NewYork There's a balance of, there
are a lot of places that reallyexist in New York that are in
the book, like say like the Oon,that are these kind of like
iconic New York institutionsthat I think gave, I wanted
people who live here who havespent time here I wanted it to
(29:38):
really feel like New York andlike I wanted them to kind of, I
definitely wanted it to be likegeographically accurate and feel
true to the city and, and.
Especially like that time, thekind of like 2010s in, in New
York.
And then there are also placesthat are, for instance, like the
restaurant Nuccio, where wehave, um, we have a scene like
(29:58):
the opening of this restaurantis invented, you know, feels
kind of loosely inspired by likea Budokan or like these sort of
like cavernous, like meatpacking district restaurants
that are like park club apart,like.
Overpriced whatever restaurant.
And like wanting to have funwith creating my own and like
(30:20):
make it so kind of cavernous andluxurious and like have like
this like secret lounge in theback.
And, and so like having, havinga balance of places that I
invented.
That still felt kind of liketrue to the city, but also like
gave me a a degree of just like,freedom to, to create.
Brett Benner (30:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Totally.
I was almost gonna say, are yousomeone who is a nightlife
person?
Are you someone who, has alwaysenjoyed that?
Rob Franklin (30:47):
Yeah, I mean I definitely used to be like, when
I first moved to the city and Ilike, was, was working in, in
management consulting, First ofall, I was 22.
I had a lot of energy and likealso in part because I was not
that good at that job, I wasoften unstaffed.
And when you're unstaffed inconsulting, like you're still
just getting paid a salary, um,but you're not having to go to
(31:10):
into work every day.
And I was going out a lot.
Yeah.
I mean I was definitely likegoing to, to kind of like the
clubs.
And now, you know, I'm in mythirties.
I'm less interested going to a,a kind of club though.
I, I certainly still willoccasionally.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I feellike everyone who is in New York
has gotta have that, that erawhere they like never cook at
(31:33):
home and, you know, if they're,if they're able to make it work,
are out five nights a week and,and kind of just saying yes to
everything,
Brett Benner (31:42):
Well, and some of the city is designed because
you're living in smaller spaces,so you're gathering in larger
ones.
I remember first moving to LosAngeles and being like.
Oh, people go to each other'shouses now.
I understand.
People would've a lot moredinner parties and, that's where
you would do it.
But New York was always, youknow, meet me here at this time.
I'm just going home to changeand get a shower and then I'll
(32:02):
meet you out wherever.
I wanted just to veer for onesecond from the book and, I
wanted to ask you about Art forBlack Lives.
Can you talk about that for asecond?
Rob Franklin (32:12):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, so Art for Black Lives is a,now we're kind of on hiatus,
but, a nonprofit initiative.
That basically allows artists todonate prints for sale.
And then we donate all of theproceeds to organizations that
provide material support to theblack trans community.
And it was kind of born out of,I started it with my friend
(32:35):
Camila, who's, a curator inBerlin, um, summer of 2020.
So kind of shortly after.
The George Floyd protests, sortof amid, there were a few
projects like this that we'dseen,, most of them that were,
that were basically ways toraise money for bail funds for
mm-hmm.
Protesters.
(32:56):
And we saw like a kind of longerterm, more like sustainable.
Version of the, the kind of likenonprofit print sale, yeah.
As viable where we were sort of,I think, you know, in that
moment, in that chaotic pandemicand like protest full summer,
(33:19):
you know, I was home in Atlantawith, with, at my parents' house
and like going to protest, but,but kind of being like, I dunno,
what, what can I.
Do in this moment.
Yeah.
Um, and in conversations with myfriend Camila, we were kind of
like, you know, one thing we, weboth do have is like the
(33:40):
eyeballs of a lot of likewealthy young people.
And like one thing we can do iskind of redirect resources in a,
in a real way.
And so, yeah.
And so we started this, thisproject, art for Black Lives,
which, we ran kind of regularlyfor the first, maybe like two
and a half years.
We did, five or six rounds andworked with a ton of great
(34:02):
artists like Marilyn Minter andLaurie Simmons, Simmons and a, a
bunch of people I'm, I'm amassive fan of, and we're able
to raise like a quarter of amillion dollars for, for these
organizations.
So, yeah, I mean, I, I stillthink it's, it's such a.
It's such a great fundraisingmodel and I think in the future,
(34:22):
you know, we kind of went onhiatus'cause she had a baby and,
and like became a director at agallery.
I sold this book and needed tokind of focus on, on getting
this past the finish line.
But, I hope we can kind ofcontinue to, to use.
The, the sort of network we'vebuilt, in, in new ways.
'cause yeah, we also got to dolike an artist residency, um,
(34:44):
and, and a few other things thathave, have allowed us to kind of
expand the vision of what theproject could be.
That's so cool.
So yeah, it is really cool.
Thank you.
Brett Benner (34:53):
My last question, is there anything you're reading
right now that you're loving?
Rob Franklin (34:56):
Such a good question.
So I.
I think I'm, I may rereadaudition, which is, oh my gosh,
Katie Kamara's new book, whichI, I love so much.
Um,
Brett Benner (35:06):
it's Talk about unpacking God.
Rob Franklin (35:08):
Yeah, and I think it's, it Bears rereading like I,
so I went to her, I think Imentioned, I went to her reading
last night and I'd read a galleyof it in November and didn't
really know anything about it atthe time.
And like, you know, withoutgiving anything away, I do feel
like now that I kind of.
Know the structure of it, evenif I don't totally like,
(35:28):
understand it, it bears likerereading.
Um,
Brett Benner (35:32):
I think I said the exact, I said the exact same
thing.
I was like, I don't know exactlythat I'm comprehending
everything that's happeninghere, but I think this is
incredible.
Like, I was just like, like someof the, and I was like, uh, oh
my God.
'cause you know, there's thatpoint when you're like, wait.
What?
Rob Franklin (35:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brett Benner (35:50):
And she is a master of brevity and getting to
so much, so succinctly with solittle.
It's really genius.
Rob Franklin (35:57):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
She's one of my, one of myfavorite writers.
Um.
Yeah, I love her writing somuch.
And, and so I think I'm, I'mgonna reread that.
Um, I'm also reading my friendAlexis OK Yoo's, uh, memoir
slash like book of reportage,um, called Blessings and
Disasters, A Story of Alabama.
And it's about, I.
(36:18):
Do you, have you heard this?
No, I just, I just,
Brett Benner (36:20):
well, I only because when I was on your
Instagram Yeah.
I saw their face and I was like,gosh, she's so interesting.
And I went down this rabbithole, and so then I started to
follow them.
Yeah.
And yeah, I saw the books comingout in August, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Precisely.
Yeah.
Rob Franklin (36:36):
It's, it's really beautiful.
I mean, it, it reminds me a tonof.
Of Didion's writing about theSouth.
Brett Benner (36:41):
Mm.
Rob Franklin (36:42):
Um, but it's this kind of, you know, Alexis is a,
is a reporter for the NewYorker, um, and like has largely
written about conflict regionsin, in Sub-Saharan Africa., And
then this is, I mean, it's amuch more personal piece of
writing than I've, I've.
Really seen from, from them.
Like, um, yeah, it, it's a mixof the kind of history of
(37:04):
Alabama and like the history oftheir family.
Um, and it's, you know, verysumptuously written and, and
I'm, I'm really enjoying that.
Brett Benner (37:14):
Wow.
Okay.
Now I have to get it for sure.
'cause I, I literally, I lookedit up and I wrote it down and I,
so I was like, okay, that'sawesome.
Well, Rob, this was fantastic.
You're great and your book isfantastic.
Please everyone go get it.
By independent if you can.
Do you know who's doing youraudio?
Rob Franklin (37:32):
Yeah, it's Justice Smith.
Who did you see?
Oh, I saw the TV glow.
Oh my god.
Oh my God.
He's fantastic.
Brett Benner (37:38):
I'm obsessed with Justice Smith.
I'm obsessed with him.
Rob Franklin (37:41):
It was totally kismet because I had seen that
movie like the week before.
They sent me the options for theaudio book and like, otherwise I
wouldn't have really known, Ihadn't really seen his work
otherwise.
But I loved that movie and Iloved that performance and like
as soon as I saw the movie.
But I had started to think abouthim for the O character.
(38:04):
Yeah.
If like an adaptation ever wereto get made.
Yeah.
Um.
And then he was on the list forpotential audiobook readers.
And I, I immediately was like,that's,
Brett Benner (38:14):
oh my God, I love that so much.
And I can't wait tell mybusiness partner because she's
obsessed with him.
But also, do you remember therewas a really short-lived, HBO
Max?
Well, it was on, was it just HBOthen series?
I think it was calledGeneration.
Generation.
Rob Franklin (38:26):
Yeah.
I watched, I watched some ofthat and they, and Justice is
also great on that.
Yeah,
Brett Benner (38:30):
I'm, he was so riveting and he's just
beautiful, first of all.
Yeah.
I mean, he's just.
Stunning.
But he's also so incrediblytalented.
But oh my God, now I have tohear it.
'cause I just think he's.
He's just next level talented,so that's fantastic.
Rob Franklin (38:46):
Well, yeah, the sample's up on Spotify, so
listen to it.
Okay.
No, no, totally,
Brett Benner (38:51):
totally.
Well, again, thank you for beinghere.
I'm really excited for you.
Rob Franklin (38:55):
You so much for having me.
Brett Benner (38:56):
Thank you again, Rob, and if you liked this
conversation and otherconversations I've had as well,
please consider liking andsubscribing to the podcast.
And if you have the time, whatwould really be helpful is if
you could give me five stars andperhaps a review.
All of those things help makethe podcast more visible to
other people so it can continueto expand.
(39:17):
I'd really appreciate it.
I will see you all next weekwith another two episodes for my
double feature, June, and I'llbe back with Jess Walters for
his new book.
So Far Gone.
Thanks everybody.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.