April 22, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with author Sarah Damoff for her debut novel, "The Bright Years" The discuss her work as a social worker, her unique path to publishing the book, the challenge of loving someone with an addiction, and finding grace in our children and the generosity of childhood.
Sarah's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/sarahdamoff/
Sarah's website:
https://www.sarahdamoff.com
the cover art artist:
https://www.instagram.com/youngparkartist/
If you like what you're hearing on this podcast please subscribe so you never miss an episode!
Watch Behind the Stack on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@brettsbookstack
Bookshop.org page:
https://www.bookshop.org/shop/brettsbookstack
Brett's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/bretts.book.stack
Behind the Stack email:
brettsbookstack@gmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack.
I'm gonna get right into itbecause there are a lot of good
books coming out today that Iwanted to really quickly talk
about, starting with MarieHelene Bertino's Exit Zero, a
series of short stories.
I came late to the game withMarie Helene Bertino, and.
(00:23):
I had read Beauty Land this yearand I flipped out over it, and I
just thought it was so smart andso moving.
So I haven't read this yet, butI'm really excited to read it,
despite my, sometimes aversionto short stories, but really
excited about this one.
Also this week is Zeal thelatest novel by Morgan Jerkins.
(00:43):
the New York Times bestsellingauthor of, this Will Be My
Undoing and Caul Baby Returns,with an epic, multi-generational
novel that illuminates thelegacy of slavery and the power
of romantic love.
This looks great.
then an Italian novel that'sactually older that's finally
been translated and is soon tobe a major film adaption.
(01:04):
It's called Separate Rooms byPierre Vitor to Deli.
It's a story of love and youthand pain that will have you
clutching at, your heart.
I want everyone to read it.
I want to press it into people'shands.
Surely one of the best novelsI've ever read that was author
Andrew Scott Greer.
Who of course is the PulitzerPrize winning author of Less and
Less is Lost.
(01:24):
I hear this is very much a bookfor the Call Me by Your Name,
crowd, and then another bookthat's coming out today that I
think looks really interestingis called The Fantasies of
Future Things by Doug Jones.
It says, in this powerful debutreminiscent of Barry Jenkins,
Moonlight, two men in Atlantareconciled their human dignity
against the price of theirprofessional ambitions, working
(01:45):
for a real estate developmentcompany, displacing black
residents in preparation for the1996 Olympics.
It's a really great cover, butthat comes out today as well.
The last book I wanna talkabout, is Jo Harkens the
Pretender, Jo Harken will be onthe show.
actually later this week, andthis is a fantastic historical
(02:05):
novel.
It's been compared and said forpeople who are fans of Wolf
Hall, and I totally get that.
I was not a big of a fan as WolfHall, as many people are, but I
absolutely loved this.
It's a, a, a part of historythat many people don't know.
and it's.
Also terribly funny and verybawdy so that's out today as
well.
Now onto today's author.
(02:28):
I am really pleased to haveSarah Damoff, whose debut book
The Bright Years comes outtoday.
Sarah has a really interestingstory about how she got this
book published, and I can't waitfor y'all to hear it.
So without further ado, pleaseenjoy this episode of Behind the
Stack.
(02:48):
I am so happy to be sitting downwith debut author Sarah Dema for
her new book, the Bright Years,which is so fantastic.
I have to tell you, like I readthis last week and it was almost
a one sit read for me.
I just flew through it, but Ifinished the book and I, you
(03:10):
know, not gonna lie, had shed afew tears and as I was wiping my
face, I was like.
Oh my God, people are going tolove this thing.
And honestly, I've already gonethrough so many of the Good
Reads reviews, and so manypeople are loving it.
So congratulations.
It's, it's, it's really great.
Sarah Damoff (03:31):
Thank you so much and thank you for having me here
today.
I'm excited to talk about thebook and thank you for reading
it and all of your encouragingwords.
Know,
Brett Benner (03:40):
Before we launch into the book, I did wanna talk
a little bit about you and howyou got to this point.
where, where did you end upgoing to college?
Sarah Damoff (03:48):
I went to the University of North Texas.
Brett Benner (03:50):
but you weren't always a Texas person, right?
Sarah Damoff (03:53):
I was born in Dallas.
Brett Benner (03:55):
Oh, you were?
Sarah Damoff (03:55):
And Yes, and so I've lived, uh, I, I moved
around a lot due to just familycircumstances, but it was always
kind of within the DFWMetroplex.
Except for, during college Ispent six months in India.
That's my time outside of Texas.
So
Brett Benner (04:11):
was that like study abroad or was that
Sarah Damoff (04:14):
It ended up, so I really, I went on a short trip
and I loved it and I wanted togo back and I was teaching and
working with children over thereand I was just gonna take time
like off school'cause I wantedto go so badly and I got the
opportunity and then I ended up.
Thinking, well, I'm working withkids, could I use this as my
practicum?
'cause I was studying childdevelopment, so I was able to
(04:35):
use it and I mean the school waslike, this is one of the
coolest, you know, practicumswe've ever had a student do.
So.
Brett Benner (04:42):
Was that an incredible experience?
Sarah Damoff (04:43):
It was so incredible.
I, I would love, I've been backmultiple times, but not with my
children.
So now I would really love totake my children.
Yeah.
It was amazing.
Wow.
Wow.
How amazing.
But other than that, I'm a, I'ma Texas girl.
Brett Benner (04:55):
Texas, through and through.
Sarah Damoff (04:57):
Yes.
Brett Benner (04:57):
okay.
And so then you, now you movedinto social work, correct?
Sarah Damoff (05:02):
Yes.
Yes.
Brett Benner (05:03):
And.
Let me see if I got thiscorrect.
It was Child Protection, childRights in Theory and Practice.
You got your ge, your degreefrom Harvard?
Yes.
Sarah Damoff (05:12):
That's a certificate?
Yes.
Brett Benner (05:14):
Okay.
So explain to me then, because Ihave a, a dear friend of mine
who's a social worker in, um,new Orleans, and her
specialization is infantadoption.
Sarah Damoff (05:24):
Mm-hmm.
Brett Benner (05:24):
But so what is your specialization?
Sarah Damoff (05:27):
Foster care.
Brett Benner (05:28):
Okay.
Yes.
And you've been doing that for.
19 years.
Sarah Damoff (05:33):
This is long.
I mean, I started volunteeringat a children's advocacy center
with foster children and gotvery involved, like when I was
still late in high school and Istarted college studying
elementary education and thenwas just like, I'm so happy for
the people who can do this andteach, but I specifically just
wanna be working.
(05:54):
In nonprofit and with fosterchildren and in social work.
And so I pivoted to to focus onthat.
Brett Benner (06:00):
And is some of that about placement?
Is that what you do?
I.
For foster children?
Sarah Damoff (06:05):
That's a great question.
I've done many things in thatfield, so I, one of the first
things I did was residentialtreatment, which is where
they're all living in onecenter.
Mm-hmm.
Um, getting care at that center.
And I worked there as aneducational counselor and, um.
I transitioned, I did somecurriculum, some family
training.
Most recently, for about sevenyears, I was on the court side
(06:29):
of things.
Okay.
So a guardian ad litem.
So we are assigned to the caseof the foster child as soon as
they enter state custody, whenthey're removed from their
family.
And we just get completelyinvolved in the case so that we
can make a recommendation to thejudge in terms of permanent
placement.
Brett Benner (06:46):
How this is such a, and I always ask this'cause I
talk to my friend a lot aboutthis.
How do you, it's gotta be toughand how do you not get pulled
down by it?
How do you stay kind of abovethe fray to a degree and keep
your, not your wits, but I justthink it has to be so
emotionally.
(07:07):
Tough.
Sarah Damoff (07:08):
Mm.
I don't always, um, I startingout particularly back a long
time ago now, when I, when I wasworking in residential
treatment, it was an extremelyintense and a very high turnover
rate.
social work in general is a veryhigh turnover rate because.
Of, of a lot of issues and a lotof things, but, not least of all
how difficult it is emotionally.
(07:30):
so, so it's, there was alearning curve and it was a
process, and I didn't mentionthis, but my husband and I also
fostered a baby for a while.
Wow.
And that's all we were doing.
I was home with our, biologicalkids and the foster baby.
And there are a lot of things.
In social work you can't do whenyou're actively a foster parent
at the same time.
So that's what we did for alittle while.
(07:51):
after that I kind of had thislike reckoning of, you know, I
also have to take care of my, myown heart and mind.
Mm-hmm.
And that's when I started, whatI was most recently doing, which
is on the court side of thingsand.
It's a little bit less of theintensity was certainly less
(08:13):
than being a foster parent andbeing in, in residential
treatment and for the season oflife that I'm in, it felt like
this is a perfect fit because, Ifeel like I'm able to make a
difference.
I'm able to keep some work lifebalance.
I have three children,biological children of my own,
and so able to, finally reach alittle bit of balance with that.
(08:34):
But, you know, I also reached apoint where I just thought, I,
you know, you, you get a newcase of a new child and you just
cry over it.
And I just thought, but Iwouldn't want it any
differently.
I wouldn't want to get to thepoint where I feel numb about
this.
And, and that's also a danger inthe job, you know?
Sure.
And so, um, so I don't wantthat.
(08:56):
I, I'd rather, I'd rather ithurt.
Brett Benner (08:59):
Wow.
Yeah, and I think it's any jobthat I, I, first of all, any job
that deals with young childrenand their vulnerabilities and
all of that, you know, I, Ithink it's amazing what you do,
and I think it's a, it's one ofthose.
Jobs, kind of like teachers thatare not immediately understood
and also, um, not, uh,appreciated to the level they
(09:22):
need to be because of whatyou're actually doing.
So I'm so curious then how thetransition or the inspiration
for the writing began and didsome of that come out of these
experiences that you were goingthrough?
And tell me about the writingand how that started and mm-hmm.
There's a part of you that inthe back of your mind that you
were like, I also wanna writeand do this, or had you always
(09:43):
done that?
Sarah Damoff (09:44):
That, that's a great question and I love that
we're transitioning from havingbeen talking about foster care
and social work, because itdefinitely was connected for me.
I have always enjoyed writing,but I never considered doing
anything, you know, just, it wasjust for myself.
It was just a way to processthings, um, my whole life.
But yes, I didn't have anyparticular training or thought
(10:06):
about, certainly never thoughtabout writing a novel.
I, after I started working withfoster children, I would just in
private journals, you know,write about each child and some
of those experiences, and I gotto the point where I found
myself, you know, wanting toshare some of that.
But you can't because it'sconfidential.
(10:27):
That's another thing that makesit hard.
You feel like you kind of haveto hold it all on yourself.
And I read a book in 2020.
You may be familiar with theLost Children Archive.
Brett Benner (10:36):
no you're not.
Sarah Damoff (10:38):
It's about child migrant specifically.
It's a very well done novel.
It was really timely and forwhatever reason, this sounds
very obvious to say now, butthat was the novel that first
kind of inspired me to think Ican write about, I can
fictionalize.
(10:59):
What I've experienced and whatI've witnessed Mm.
And have characters that arenew, but it's, but it's based on
what I know to be true aboutthis general field or this
general demographic.
And I could write somethingfiction and it just was this
kind of light bulb epiphany.
that again sounds obvious, but Ithink like the day I finished
Lost Children Archive, I waslike, I'm gonna try to
(11:21):
fictionalize some of what I'veexperienced.
And, and that was, that was myfirst inspiration and attempt.
And I actually wrote.
A manuscript that I didn't endup doing anything with.
That was in 2020, and then 2021was when I wrote The Bright
Years.
Brett Benner (11:36):
Wow.
And when you started The BrightYears then, and, and, and in a
second, I want you to.
Well, maybe I should do thisfirst since we're getting into
it.
For our listeners or ourviewers, do you have a, an, an
elevator pitch or a log line forthe book?
Sarah Damoff (11:49):
sure.
Yes.
It's a little longer than a logline with the story.
Brett Benner (11:53):
That's, that's okay.
It can be an, it can be a bigelevator.
Sarah Damoff (11:56):
Okay, great.
We're gonna go a few, a fewfloors up.
Yes.
Brett Benner (11:58):
We can go up stories.
Yes, we can.
Like Empire State Building.
Sarah Damoff (12:01):
I love it.
Oh my goodness.
Okay, so the BRE ears followsthe family through several
decades.
We start with Ryan and LillianBright's love story.
We see them fall in love and getmarried and then have a
daughter.
And some things start to comeout from their past that they've
kind of been keeping, theyhaven't been forthright with
each other or really withthemselves about some, some
(12:23):
secrets and some wounds thatthey have in their past.
And as those do they begin tocome up for, then their daughter
comes of age watching theirmarriage struggle and having to
learn for herself, who are myparents?
What decisions did they makeeven before I was born that
might impact my life and how Ilive my life?
Um, and so it really justexplores the themes of just
(12:47):
generational impact as we followthis family very intimately
through a few decades.
Brett Benner (12:53):
That was excellent.
And by the way, your buildingwasn't even that tall, so that
was, that was, that was veryconcise.
Sarah Damoff (12:58):
Thank you.
Brett Benner (12:58):
Yeah, and people have been, saying that for fans
of Mary Beth Keen and ClaireLombardo and those, that's kind
of right on.
And I love both those authorsand for people who love those
authors, I think this is gonnabe like, you know, the kind of
the Cinderella perfect fit, forthose readers.
But now where my questionstarted for you, based on what
you were saying is who was yourcenterpiece at first for this?
(13:19):
Like, what was your inspiration?
Where did you kind of the accesspoint for the story to launch
off?
Sarah Damoff (13:24):
Great question.
Um, surprisingly, I, I feel thatit surprises many people, but it
began as mother and daughter, soLillian and Georgette, and
originally I wrote, this was anentire novel in letters.
It was the, my initial title wascalled The Bright Letters.
And when I.
(13:44):
Wrote it, rewrote it to not beepistolary.
It became the bright years, butit was originally, the conceit
was when a mother or any parent,but in this case it was a mother
has these things in her past andthen she has a child and you're,
and you're looking at this childand you're like, at some point
I'm, I'm gonna wanna tell you.
(14:05):
Who I am.
Mm.
And these things that maybe areheavier and there's no magic
line as a parent where all of asudden you're like, okay, my
child's now old enough.
She's ready to, to hear thesethings about, you know, who I
was before she was born.
And so that was the conceit, wasthis mother not really knowing
how to do it.
And even as her daughter was ababy, beginning to just write
(14:28):
letters to think, I, I wannatell her about this, but maybe
it's things she hasn't even toldother people.
and so that was the originalconceit, and Ryan, who is now a
very central character, the booksort of starts and ends with
him.
At first, he was kind of just a,he was Georgette's father, but
then he was kind of just a partof Lillian's past that she was
(14:49):
gonna be telling Georgetteabout.
And as she started telling herdaughter about her father.
And I started giving Ryan avoice.
He became much more central.
He, he just refused to be astereotype and he needed just a
lot more complexity and humanitythan he would've had if she were
to just tell her daughter, thisis who your dad was, but he's
(15:12):
gone now.
He, he couldn't stay that way.
That was my original plan, butit's not what happened.
So.
Wow.
Brett Benner (15:19):
And, and did and did a lot of that come.
Once you started working with aneditor in terms of the revision
process, or was that somethingthat you just started to figure
out yourself?
Sarah Damoff (15:28):
It was way before I worked with an editor.
It was within the first draft.
I realized he was gonna be abigger character and then with
each revision he, he startedtaking a little bit more space
on the page.
and in the story, so that it waspretty, I honestly, once I, I
sold the book and worked with aneditor.
Of course we did do edits, but,I think she would've said it, it
(15:49):
was a pretty light edit.
I had worked on the book, for.
Almost two years at the point.
At that point.
So,
Brett Benner (15:55):
and I'm so curious, especially for people
who are writing themselves.
Did you have an agent at thatpoint already or had you just
blindly started to send themanuscript out?
Sarah Damoff (16:07):
Um, Brett, I had nothing.
I, I didn't know what a queryletter was, which is, you know,
what you pitch an agent with.
Yeah.
I had no idea like anythingabout publishing the, how the
industry works, how you get anovel published, the di, the
different options forpublishing.
You've got traditional orself-publishing.
I didn't know any of that.
I always have been a big reader,but like many readers I didn't
(16:29):
pay attention to, whichpublishing houses were on the.
Fine of the book or mm-hmm.
Any of the, you know, I usuallydidn't read the
acknowledgements.
I just was, was reading.
And so, that was all a very new,big process and learning curve
for me.
I drafted it in about twomonths.
It was very fast.
Wow.
Wow.
(16:49):
It was, I was, I, I don'toutline, so it kind of a
discovery writer.
So it's, I I kind of describe itas like.
It's like an amplified readingexperience where you're just
like, the story just kind ofcomes out and I'd, you know, I'd
get so excited.
I'm like, what's gonna happennext?
And I really couldn't figure itout until I just.
Started typing it.
(17:09):
So it's, it's, it's almostaddictive to just keep going.
'cause you're like, just in thesame way you wanna turn the
pages when you're reading.
It was like, I just need to seewhat story's gonna come out
here.
So, um, it was, I have to do alot of work in revisions because
of that.
'cause I draft very fast to kindof learn the story.
It's almost like a glorified, italmost is a glorified outline,
but it's written, it's writtenin prose.
(17:30):
'cause that's just how I am ableto discover the story.
So the first draft, yeah, thatwas two months.
It was very fast.
I did, I showed it to a fewpeople, you know, friends and
family, and I, I kind of set itaside, forgot about it, didn't
touch it for, gosh, at leastlike six months and the
following summer.
I was starting to listen topodcasts about publishing and
(17:50):
start to think about that learn,and I just felt compelled to.
Open it back up and really diginto research, how do I do this
if I wanna get this published?
And, um, just as I learned more,I was revising the manuscript,
revising my pitch, and it wasabout a year later.
Um, so it was August.
September of 2023, um, that Isigned with my agent.
(18:13):
And then a few weeks later wesold it.
I was speaking with editors atseveral of the major houses and
then we sold it, um, in apreempt to Simon and Schuster.
So that part was.
Definitely a whirlwind.
Brett Benner (18:25):
Wow.
You are literally like LanaTurner at the counter, at the
soda shop with the person whosits next to them and says, I'm
gonna make you a movie star,because that's, that's
incredible.
what an inspiration.
That's, that's amazing.
That's really, really amazing.
Congratulations.
'cause you don't always hearabout it that way.
It's, you know what I mean?
That's great.
Sarah Damoff (18:43):
Thank you.
Yeah, I, I mean, I'll say itwas, I worked very hard, but I
know that there are people that,that spend a lot longer and I
feel so grateful for the, theagent editor I was able to
connect with.
'cause they have just beenperfect.
And yeah.
And like I said, I just, I wasso green, I didn't, I didn't
know anything.
I was, I know the first fewemails I sent to agents were
(19:05):
totally quote unquote wrong.
They were not, you know, theywere just, there was just me
talking.
I didn't know there was.
A particular format that wasexpected or any of that.
So I learned that slowly overtime.
Brett Benner (19:18):
And in, in a way though, I wonder if that kind
of, for lack of a better word,naivete worked to your benefit
mm-hmm.
Because mm-hmm.
You, there was not an extra kindof, if you did put that, um,
burden on yourself or thatexpectation that could have
impeded certain something.
Do you know what I mean?
So for this, you could just kindof be like, okay, I don't know
what I'm doing, but here it is.
(19:39):
Right.
And like, you let the work speakfor itself.
So it's so awesome.
Sarah Damoff (19:43):
Right?
That is, I, by the time I got myagent, I did have a good, you
know, more appropriateprofessional pitch, I think.
But, but I think you're right.
And that's something that in theend, I was able to feel that
much more confident in the workbecause I was like, you know, I
just, I had no connections inthe industry.
I, I have no platform.
I cold pitched people and I soldthe book.
So there must be something goodin it.
(20:04):
That's all I could tell.
Yeah, I would tell myself wasjust like, there's no other
reason I would get a book dealother than the book being
worthwhile.
So, no.
'cause there's too
Brett Benner (20:11):
much, right?
There's too much stuff theregoing through and there's too
many options, so no, a hundredpercent.
All right, so talking aboutthese characters, they're all so
great.
In their own right and in, invery different ways.
Lillian just to start with,because she kind of is the, the
launch off point of these peopleto me, she's really interesting
(20:32):
and I, I I wanna go back tosomething you said earlier,
which is so true when you'retalking about children and at
what point, um, it's appropriateto kind of let your child in on.
Your own history and your ownlife, because I feel like you
know.
When we're all kids, you, youlook at your parents as the
(20:54):
people that you know feed you.
They love you.
They do all the things they'resupposed to do.
You don't look at them asseparate individuals who have a
life, who had a life previous.
I once had an English teacherwho said, a child's biggest
disappointment is when theyrealize their father is
infallible and just human.
Yes.
And their second is when theyrealize their mother is the same
(21:16):
way as well.
Yes.
And I've always thought aboutthat.
Um, and even in parenting, doyou.
Like, do you find that as aparent, and do you also find
like, you know, at what pointare things appropriate to talk
about?
Because also I think parentinghas changed so radically from, I
know from when I was raised andhow I was raised and what we
(21:41):
talk about.
And I think part of that is dueand.
Part to the fact that most kidshave access to like a computer
in their pocket 24 hours a day,and there's such a dissemination
of information that's happeningthat we were never privy to.
Right.
Sarah Damoff (21:54):
Right.
Brett Benner (21:54):
So, do you find that, like with your own kids
and, and how do you, what do youhold back and what do you
actually share, I guess?
Sarah Damoff (22:02):
That's a great question.
yes.
I think it's interestingbecause, you know, not all of us
have children, but all of ushave parents.
Yeah.
Everyone has parents and we, andso my first experience with this
kind of.
Theme of when does a parentdisclose to their child more
about life and their life inparticular?
My first experience with thatwas as a daughter.
(22:23):
So as a daughter, learning whoare my parents, and what things
did they choose to tell me?
What things did I have to figureout for myself?
And questions that you have foryour parents and that, you know,
I had, my first child in myearly twenties, so maybe it's
because I had children youngthat.
That still felt kind of fresh tome.
My own journey with now I'm anadult, figuring out who my
(22:46):
parents were and, and just as weage, even if, if your parents
are very open with you, youstill, you still think about
things differently, questionsyou didn't know to have when you
were 15 years old.
All of a sudden when you're 22,you're like, wait, how did, did
this happen to my parents?
How did they do this?
Yeah.
So it's just something that onthe child side, everybody
(23:08):
experiences.
And so that was very much, in mymind becoming a parent and now
having three kids who arehitting teenage years.
I'm definitely, I'm very openwith them.
It's interesting with, you know.
My working in social work andworking with children for so
many years, I'm very aware ofwhat's developmentally
appropriate and just kind ofusing, my general, my children
(23:32):
are very sharp and I think allchildren are, I think a lot of
times we, we underestimate, andI know I have degrees of this as
a child, I remember.
My parents think I don'tunderstand something, but I do.
They think I didn't seesomething, but I did.
and I think most people have atleast a memory or two like that
from being a child, and wereally underestimate.
And so my general rule is to, toshare with them and response.
(23:59):
So I might not initiate.
Unless it's something that I'm,you know, it's just super
important that I talk to'emabout, I'm not gonna initiate,
let me tell you this thing abouthow That's right.
Heavy the world is, but ratherwhen they come to me with a
question or they bring somethingup, or they tell a story about
something they saw or theyheard, then I'll meet them there
and I'll meet them.
I'll, and I think they know.
I, they do because we have veryopen and they, they'll come to
(24:21):
me first with their questions.
I think they know that I will behonest with them.
I'm not, I'm going to, I'm gonnameet them at the level of their
question and I'll be honest withthem.
whether it's a question about mepersonally or just.
The world in general.
so I don't know if that answersyour question.
Brett Benner (24:35):
No, no, it does.
It's a, and it, no, it doesn't.
It's a hundred percent.
I was like, I was like, newparents, take note.
This is a great advice.
And, and I did, we did the samething, which is basically if a
question was asked, we wouldonly give as much as was asked
of us.
So if, if, if there's somethingasked, we would answer that part
of the question.
If it, if it invoked anotherquestion, we would continue, but
(24:57):
it didn't necessarily mean I.
Let's sit down and have thiswhole conversation about, you
know, global warming orwhatever.
Right, right.
Um, well, I'll answer assuccinctly and as appropriately
as I can this question that'sbeing asked.
Exactly.
Yes.
because I do agree with you and,and I think it, it speaks to,
and Georgette the daughter aswell.
(25:19):
Mm-hmm.
We do, kids do understand somuch more than we do to give
them credit for, and there is, Ithink, a built in, Well, I wanna
say empathy mm-hmm.
That exists within all childrenthat for whatever reason, gets
beat out.
And I don't mean physically, butI just mean beat out by life.
And I think that, um, Ryan is aprime example of that.
(25:42):
The father in this, of someonewho had a really horrible
childhood and kind of thegenerational effect of what this
is.
Absolutely.
Um, so.
It's also interesting toobecause, um, and I, I don't, I'm
not gonna give any spoilers awayat all, but, but, there is an
incident that happens inLillian's past that is integral
(26:04):
to her when they're talkingabout secrets.
And secrets exist in this bookin a lot of context.
But I had to read this passagethat I thought.
It was, uh, look, I'm not awoman.
I'll never completely understandthis feeling or even having the
opportunity to carry a child,right.
And the responsibility thatcomes with that.
But I loved this moment becauseI think this speaks to so many
(26:26):
women that, Lillian getspregnant and this is an early on
before.
Mm-hmm.
She's, this is an early part ofher life.
Right.
And it says, um.
What kind of woman gives away achild?
I could have kept him or had anabortion legalized a few months
ago, except I couldn't do thatwhen it came down to it.
Sometimes a woman's choice isbetween impossible and
(26:49):
impossible and impossible, andshe just has to make it.
Survival calculations becomemore urgent than rightness.
I just thought that was such anamazing.
Passage and I think it willspeak to so many women because
there are these impossiblechoices that you have to live
with.
And that Lillian ends up, uh,bearing up and doing what she
(27:13):
feels is right, and having noidea about what those
ramifications or how it's gonnaplay out later in so many ways,
both emotionally and, and, andbeyond.
Sarah Damoff (27:26):
Absolutely.
Brett Benner (27:27):
So I just thought that was great.
Sarah Damoff (27:29):
Thank you.
Brett Benner (27:29):
Um, Georgette, she speaks so much to me about the
resilience of the human spirit.
Hmm.
And the way that, we as humans,as individuals, and especially
children.
Survive in, in the face of, hugeobstacles.
can you talk a little bit abouther?
Sarah Damoff (27:51):
Yes, I think, I think you're right.
And I love that you said that.
I haven't thought of it in thoseexact terms that, you know, just
seeing resilience.
Through her.
I think that, um, you know, wesee her in this book.
One thing I wanted to do withthis book was a long arc of what
it's like to live.
I mean, it's, it's no spoiler orsecret that Ryan struggles with
(28:13):
addiction.
He has alcoholism.
Mm-hmm.
And it is not something where hejust, within a few years, he's
sober.
It's a, it's many decades of astruggle.
And so it's as, it's really allof Georgette's life.
And I think something that invarying degrees is true for many
(28:35):
parents is we experience orglimpse.
A particular kind of grace fromour children and you know,
whether it's something huge likewhat Ryan and Georgette
experienced or whether it'ssomething smaller.
I know I've had moments whereit's like my children see me
(28:56):
with.
Such generous eyes.
They, you know, when I, I'vemade mistakes or I've made a
mistake that hurts them or hurtstheir feelings.
And they're so, they're sogracious and forgiving and,
that, like you talked earlierabout just this kind of natural
empathy that's their, inparticular, with parents,
children can be very, you know,almost to a fault.
(29:20):
Protective of their parents,like, yep, a hundred percent.
And, and it's something that,that Georgette has to learn as
she goes through adolescence andinto adulthood and, and she has
to grapple with, you know, she'snot perfect at all either.
And so she has to grapple with,a child will always want to have
(29:41):
a good relationship with theirparent.
So she has that, but she also,they also have periods of
estrangement and times where hereally hurts her.
And, you know, the kind ofgenerosity of childhood
naturally, and probably it'shealthy.
She, she then has to learn howto, what to do with that pain
(30:01):
and with that anger toward him.
And, and she does that andthat's a big wrestle in her own
life.
And then that.
You know, maybe she can't evenarticulate as she, as she's
younger, but when she getsolder, just having to try to
make sense of herself and theways that she might even see her
dad in her and, where she'sgonna land in terms of.
(30:23):
Now, how do I see him?
How do I relate to him now thatI'm an adult?
And how am I like him and whatdo I do with that?
So I think those are some of herbig questions that she's, that
her character is asking in thisstory.
Brett Benner (30:35):
Well, and it's really beautiful how you've
carried, cause Ryan's an artist.
Mm-hmm.
And he has a gallery.
Mm-hmm.
And the way that translates.
To her as well, becoming aphotographer.
I really thought that was sobeautiful, the kind of way it
could, uh, there there can besome kind of flower in the dirt,
for lack of a better way ofsaying it really was.
(30:57):
I thought, oh my God, this is sobeautiful.
And I think it's a fun partabout being a parent is watching
in your children, what, uh,things are similar and what come
out and what, you know mm-hmm.
What things are, are, aredeveloping.
It's a really cool thing.
Sarah Damoff (31:13):
Absolutely.
And if I can just say too,'causejust with what you're saying, I
think it's so important, andthis was something I think this
is probably something that'sreally resonating from the
people I've heard from who have.
Lived with and loved someone whohas an addiction.
What was important to methroughout the book was showing
these moments of closeness andaffection.
(31:35):
And, because otherwise you'relike, why isn't, why does she
care about, why do they careabout each other so much?
But the reality is when you,when you love someone with an
addiction, usually you're still,in this case for sure, you're
still having.
Fun together.
Yeah.
You're laughing together.
You, I mean, the reason it hurtsso much is because you love them
(31:58):
so much that otherwise the painwouldn't be as heightened as it
is.
But, and because there's so muchback and forth because when
they're doing well or when youthink they're doing well, you,
you're having this great timetogether and you're feeling that
closeness of parent and child inRyan and Georgette's case and
then.
You're like, what did you donow?
That's, that's why it hurts somuch.
Every time he, he goes back tothe bottle and, and hurts her,
(32:21):
doesn't show up because thereare still times where he is
showing up and there and it'sjust a very human, real, you
know, I think it does happen,but it's the, it's a rare case
where it's just so extremewhere, um, it's just an awful
relationship.
Most sure.
I, I interviewed people and, andeveryone I, I spoke with.
It just, it was a, it's a very,it's a very back and forth.
(32:44):
It's, you know, otherwise youwould just cut them out of your
lives.
But it's like, you just can't dothat because you care about them
and, and maybe you see thatthey're really trying.
Brett Benner (32:54):
Yep.
And they had a good history.
Yes.
It's not like it startedimmediately and it was toxic and
he was abusive.
Right.
It wasn't that.
So it's something thatdeveloped, which is also very
real.
I mean, certainly I thinkeverybody knows about people in
relationships that I.
No one goes into a relationshipthinking, I really want this to
suck.
(33:14):
You know, you're, you're withthat person for a reason and
hopefully you are, you know,finding the support and the love
and all of the things thatconstitute a healthy and lasting
relationship.
But they did have that.
Mm-hmm.
So it's just something that, itmakes sense to me why Lillian
wants so badly to believe.
Mm-hmm.
Like you said, he's trying, he,you know, it's not just, It's
(33:38):
just the cycle and, and, andit's, and it's rough.
Sarah Damoff (33:41):
And I think he's made a lot of progress, even
generationally because what weknow of his dad, which is of
course much less, that was, thatwas a more difficult
relationship.
Sure.
He, he still comes into theaddiction and struggles with the
addiction, but he does.
So much better than his ownfather did.
And so even though there's thiskind of generational pain and
(34:03):
trauma, you still see someprogress and there's reason for
hope in that.
And of course that, you know,that makes the whole back and
forth that much more confusingwhen their characters are living
through it.
But you're right, he's, he'strying the whole time and he's
aware when he fails and he'strying to protect them from his
failures.
Brett Benner (34:22):
A hundred percent.
Because of this, what happenswith Lillian and Lillian, and
Georgette, um, you know, areliving in an apartment there,
there's such a also theme inthis that I love so much and,
and I talk about this on thispodcast with other authors.
A lot of the idea of foundfamily versus your given family.
Yes.
She has this great friend Shaunanext door, who has a son.
(34:42):
and.
They're just such greatcharacters in it and, and I
loved this idea of these twomoms coming together with their
children and then the longevityof that too.
It's really beautiful to see.
I just thought it was a greataddition to the fabric of the
book.
Sarah Damoff (34:59):
Mm-hmm.
Thank you for saying that.
Yeah.
I think found family is soimportant and friendships and
female friendships inparticular, and as adults, those
even, even when you might have ahealthy marriage, there are
certain things that you, youjust, you have to have more than
just your spouse.
Those friendships are soimportant, and especially when
you know your kids.
(35:19):
Can have another adult to lookup to and things like that.
So thank you for saying that.
Yeah,
Brett Benner (35:23):
no, sure.
Um, one thing I wanted to askyou really quick was your cover
is so beautiful and there's apicture on your Instagram with I
the original art.
Now, is that your painting?
Sarah Damoff (35:36):
Oh no.
Well now it is because Ipurchased it.
So, what the story with thecover is that I had, you know,
told the team at Simon Schusterwhen we were talking about
cover.
I told them I think it would becool if it could be painted.
And of course, even the font ispainted on this cover because
Ryan is a painter.
and so what they came back to mewith is they found.
(35:59):
This artist who's a painter inSouth Korea, her name is Young
Park, and she had this painting,which is now the book cover, and
that's the only one we everlooked at because it just was
immediately the perfect coverfor this story.
Just kind of the picture of needand humanity and hope at the
same time, all represented byher painting.
(36:21):
And so because they did this.
In this way, they just found apaint, an artist with her
painting, I was able to purchasethe original painting from her.
So that all came from, you know,Simon Sheer finding the cover,
and then I was able to purchaseit and it now hangs at my house,
so.
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
It's so special
Brett Benner (36:41):
and I will.
When these episodes go up, I'mgonna link her Instagram page as
well Please.
'cause I went and looked at allof her stuff.
Yes.
And she's beautiful artist.
It's beautiful.
But it also, um, it's sovibrant, like the picture on
your wall, I mean, the cover isso gorgeous, but to see the
colors kind of explode, youknow, it's, it's really
stunning.
Um.
(37:03):
I have to say, and, and, and inclosing, I'm not giving anything
away, but not every book sticksThe landing.
Mm.
This absolutely sticks Thelanding and.
It is finished.
So movingly and beautifullythat, uh, kudos to you.
I, I thought it was, I thoughtit was great.
Sarah Damoff (37:25):
Thank you so much.
So,
Brett Benner (37:27):
so everyone get the bright years, it's, it's
simply.
Fantastic.
I, I really, I cannot believethis is a debut.
It's so self-assured and, andreally stunning, buy
independent, if you're able tobuy independent.
and of course you can always goto my bookshop.org page and it
will be there as well.
Sarah, this was so delightful.
(37:47):
You're, you're just lovely.
I'm, congratulations on all ofit.
It's, it's really, really,really exciting.
Sarah Damoff (37:53):
Thank you for everything.
Thank you for having me today,Brett.
Brett Benner (37:58):
Thank you again, Sarah, and if you like this
conversation and otherconversations that you've been
hearing, please consider likingand subscribing to the podcast
on your podcast platform ofchoice.
And another thing.
If you can give a rating, fivestars would be incredible.
But also if you have the time towrite a review, everything helps
(38:19):
and that will only help thepodcast get seen by more people
so that I can continue to dothis.
Have a great week, and thanksagain for listening
Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or
welcome back to another episodeof Behind the Stack.
I'm gonna get right into itbecause there are a lot of good
books coming out today that Iwanted to really quickly talk
about, starting with MarieHelene Bertino's Exit Zero, a
series of short stories.
I came late to the game withMarie Helene Bertino, and.
(00:23):
I had read Beauty Land this yearand I flipped out over it, and I
just thought it was so smart andso moving.
So I haven't read this yet, butI'm really excited to read it,
despite my, sometimes aversionto short stories, but really
excited about this one.
Also this week is Zeal thelatest novel by Morgan Jerkins.
(00:43):
the New York Times bestsellingauthor of, this Will Be My
Undoing and Caul Baby Returns,with an epic, multi-generational
novel that illuminates thelegacy of slavery and the power
of romantic love.
This looks great.
then an Italian novel that'sactually older that's finally
been translated and is soon tobe a major film adaption.
(01:04):
It's called Separate Rooms byPierre Vitor to Deli.
It's a story of love and youthand pain that will have you
clutching at, your heart.
I want everyone to read it.
I want to press it into people'shands.
Surely one of the best novelsI've ever read that was author
Andrew Scott Greer.
Who of course is the PulitzerPrize winning author of Less and
Less is Lost.
(01:24):
I hear this is very much a bookfor the Call Me by Your Name,
crowd, and then another bookthat's coming out today that I
think looks really interestingis called The Fantasies of
Future Things by Doug Jones.
It says, in this powerful debutreminiscent of Barry Jenkins,
Moonlight, two men in Atlantareconciled their human dignity
against the price of theirprofessional ambitions, working
(01:45):
for a real estate developmentcompany, displacing black
residents in preparation for the1996 Olympics.
It's a really great cover, butthat comes out today as well.
The last book I wanna talkabout, is Jo Harkens the
Pretender, Jo Harken will be onthe show.
actually later this week, andthis is a fantastic historical
(02:05):
novel.
It's been compared and said forpeople who are fans of Wolf
Hall, and I totally get that.
I was not a big of a fan as WolfHall, as many people are, but I
absolutely loved this.
It's a, a, a part of historythat many people don't know.
and it's.
Also terribly funny and verybawdy so that's out today as
well.
Now onto today's author.
(02:28):
I am really pleased to haveSarah Damoff, whose debut book
The Bright Years comes outtoday.
Sarah has a really interestingstory about how she got this
book published, and I can't waitfor y'all to hear it.
So without further ado, pleaseenjoy this episode of Behind the
Stack.
(02:48):
I am so happy to be sitting downwith debut author Sarah Dema for
her new book, the Bright Years,which is so fantastic.
I have to tell you, like I readthis last week and it was almost
a one sit read for me.
I just flew through it, but Ifinished the book and I, you
(03:10):
know, not gonna lie, had shed afew tears and as I was wiping my
face, I was like.
Oh my God, people are going tolove this thing.
And honestly, I've already gonethrough so many of the Good
Reads reviews, and so manypeople are loving it.
So congratulations.
It's, it's, it's really great.
Sarah Damoff (03:31):
Thank you so much and thank you for having me here
today.
I'm excited to talk about thebook and thank you for reading
it and all of your encouragingwords.
Know,
Brett Benner (03:40):
Before we launch into the book, I did wanna talk
a little bit about you and howyou got to this point.
where, where did you end upgoing to college?
Sarah Damoff (03:48):
I went to the University of North Texas.
Brett Benner (03:50):
but you weren't always a Texas person, right?
Sarah Damoff (03:53):
I was born in Dallas.
Brett Benner (03:55):
Oh, you were?
Sarah Damoff (03:55):
And Yes, and so I've lived, uh, I, I moved
around a lot due to just familycircumstances, but it was always
kind of within the DFWMetroplex.
Except for, during college Ispent six months in India.
That's my time outside of Texas.
So
Brett Benner (04:11):
was that like study abroad or was that
Sarah Damoff (04:14):
It ended up, so I really, I went on a short trip
and I loved it and I wanted togo back and I was teaching and
working with children over thereand I was just gonna take time
like off school'cause I wantedto go so badly and I got the
opportunity and then I ended up.
Thinking, well, I'm working withkids, could I use this as my
practicum?
'cause I was studying childdevelopment, so I was able to
(04:35):
use it and I mean the school waslike, this is one of the
coolest, you know, practicumswe've ever had a student do.
So.
Brett Benner (04:42):
Was that an incredible experience?
Sarah Damoff (04:43):
It was so incredible.
I, I would love, I've been backmultiple times, but not with my
children.
So now I would really love totake my children.
Yeah.
It was amazing.
Wow.
Wow.
How amazing.
But other than that, I'm a, I'ma Texas girl.
Brett Benner (04:55):
Texas, through and through.
Sarah Damoff (04:57):
Yes.
Brett Benner (04:57):
okay.
And so then you, now you movedinto social work, correct?
Sarah Damoff (05:02):
Yes.
Yes.
Brett Benner (05:03):
And.
Let me see if I got thiscorrect.
It was Child Protection, childRights in Theory and Practice.
You got your ge, your degreefrom Harvard?
Yes.
Sarah Damoff (05:12):
That's a certificate?
Yes.
Brett Benner (05:14):
Okay.
So explain to me then, because Ihave a, a dear friend of mine
who's a social worker in, um,new Orleans, and her
specialization is infantadoption.
Sarah Damoff (05:24):
Mm-hmm.
Brett Benner (05:24):
But so what is your specialization?
Sarah Damoff (05:27):
Foster care.
Brett Benner (05:28):
Okay.
Yes.
And you've been doing that for.
19 years.
Sarah Damoff (05:33):
This is long.
I mean, I started volunteeringat a children's advocacy center
with foster children and gotvery involved, like when I was
still late in high school and Istarted college studying
elementary education and thenwas just like, I'm so happy for
the people who can do this andteach, but I specifically just
wanna be working.
(05:54):
In nonprofit and with fosterchildren and in social work.
And so I pivoted to to focus onthat.
Brett Benner (06:00):
And is some of that about placement?
Is that what you do?
I.
For foster children?
Sarah Damoff (06:05):
That's a great question.
I've done many things in thatfield, so I, one of the first
things I did was residentialtreatment, which is where
they're all living in onecenter.
Mm-hmm.
Um, getting care at that center.
And I worked there as aneducational counselor and, um.
I transitioned, I did somecurriculum, some family
training.
Most recently, for about sevenyears, I was on the court side
(06:29):
of things.
Okay.
So a guardian ad litem.
So we are assigned to the caseof the foster child as soon as
they enter state custody, whenthey're removed from their
family.
And we just get completelyinvolved in the case so that we
can make a recommendation to thejudge in terms of permanent
placement.
Brett Benner (06:46):
How this is such a, and I always ask this'cause I
talk to my friend a lot aboutthis.
How do you, it's gotta be toughand how do you not get pulled
down by it?
How do you stay kind of abovethe fray to a degree and keep
your, not your wits, but I justthink it has to be so
emotionally.
(07:07):
Tough.
Sarah Damoff (07:08):
Mm.
I don't always, um, I startingout particularly back a long
time ago now, when I, when I wasworking in residential
treatment, it was an extremelyintense and a very high turnover
rate.
social work in general is a veryhigh turnover rate because.
Of, of a lot of issues and a lotof things, but, not least of all
how difficult it is emotionally.
(07:30):
so, so it's, there was alearning curve and it was a
process, and I didn't mentionthis, but my husband and I also
fostered a baby for a while.
Wow.
And that's all we were doing.
I was home with our, biologicalkids and the foster baby.
And there are a lot of things.
In social work you can't do whenyou're actively a foster parent
at the same time.
So that's what we did for alittle while.
(07:51):
after that I kind of had thislike reckoning of, you know, I
also have to take care of my, myown heart and mind.
Mm-hmm.
And that's when I started, whatI was most recently doing, which
is on the court side of thingsand.
It's a little bit less of theintensity was certainly less
(08:13):
than being a foster parent andbeing in, in residential
treatment and for the season oflife that I'm in, it felt like
this is a perfect fit because, Ifeel like I'm able to make a
difference.
I'm able to keep some work lifebalance.
I have three children,biological children of my own,
and so able to, finally reach alittle bit of balance with that.
(08:34):
But, you know, I also reached apoint where I just thought, I,
you know, you, you get a newcase of a new child and you just
cry over it.
And I just thought, but Iwouldn't want it any
differently.
I wouldn't want to get to thepoint where I feel numb about
this.
And, and that's also a danger inthe job, you know?
Sure.
And so, um, so I don't wantthat.
(08:56):
I, I'd rather, I'd rather ithurt.
Brett Benner (08:59):
Wow.
Yeah, and I think it's any jobthat I, I, first of all, any job
that deals with young childrenand their vulnerabilities and
all of that, you know, I, Ithink it's amazing what you do,
and I think it's a, it's one ofthose.
Jobs, kind of like teachers thatare not immediately understood
and also, um, not, uh,appreciated to the level they
(09:22):
need to be because of whatyou're actually doing.
So I'm so curious then how thetransition or the inspiration
for the writing began and didsome of that come out of these
experiences that you were goingthrough?
And tell me about the writingand how that started and mm-hmm.
There's a part of you that inthe back of your mind that you
were like, I also wanna writeand do this, or had you always
(09:43):
done that?
Sarah Damoff (09:44):
That, that's a great question and I love that
we're transitioning from havingbeen talking about foster care
and social work, because itdefinitely was connected for me.
I have always enjoyed writing,but I never considered doing
anything, you know, just, it wasjust for myself.
It was just a way to processthings, um, my whole life.
But yes, I didn't have anyparticular training or thought
(10:06):
about, certainly never thoughtabout writing a novel.
I, after I started working withfoster children, I would just in
private journals, you know,write about each child and some
of those experiences, and I gotto the point where I found
myself, you know, wanting toshare some of that.
But you can't because it'sconfidential.
(10:27):
That's another thing that makesit hard.
You feel like you kind of haveto hold it all on yourself.
And I read a book in 2020.
You may be familiar with theLost Children Archive.
Brett Benner (10:36):
no you're not.
Sarah Damoff (10:38):
It's about child migrant specifically.
It's a very well done novel.
It was really timely and forwhatever reason, this sounds
very obvious to say now, butthat was the novel that first
kind of inspired me to think Ican write about, I can
fictionalize.
(10:59):
What I've experienced and whatI've witnessed Mm.
And have characters that arenew, but it's, but it's based on
what I know to be true aboutthis general field or this
general demographic.
And I could write somethingfiction and it just was this
kind of light bulb epiphany.
that again sounds obvious, but Ithink like the day I finished
Lost Children Archive, I waslike, I'm gonna try to
(11:21):
fictionalize some of what I'veexperienced.
And, and that was, that was myfirst inspiration and attempt.
And I actually wrote.
A manuscript that I didn't endup doing anything with.
That was in 2020, and then 2021was when I wrote The Bright
Years.
Brett Benner (11:36):
Wow.
And when you started The BrightYears then, and, and, and in a
second, I want you to.
Well, maybe I should do thisfirst since we're getting into
it.
For our listeners or ourviewers, do you have a, an, an
elevator pitch or a log line forthe book?
Sarah Damoff (11:49):
sure.
Yes.
It's a little longer than a logline with the story.
Brett Benner (11:53):
That's, that's okay.
It can be an, it can be a bigelevator.
Sarah Damoff (11:56):
Okay, great.
We're gonna go a few, a fewfloors up.
Yes.
Brett Benner (11:58):
We can go up stories.
Yes, we can.
Like Empire State Building.
Sarah Damoff (12:01):
I love it.
Oh my goodness.
Okay, so the BRE ears followsthe family through several
decades.
We start with Ryan and LillianBright's love story.
We see them fall in love and getmarried and then have a
daughter.
And some things start to comeout from their past that they've
kind of been keeping, theyhaven't been forthright with
each other or really withthemselves about some, some
(12:23):
secrets and some wounds thatthey have in their past.
And as those do they begin tocome up for, then their daughter
comes of age watching theirmarriage struggle and having to
learn for herself, who are myparents?
What decisions did they makeeven before I was born that
might impact my life and how Ilive my life?
Um, and so it really justexplores the themes of just
(12:47):
generational impact as we followthis family very intimately
through a few decades.
Brett Benner (12:53):
That was excellent.
And by the way, your buildingwasn't even that tall, so that
was, that was, that was veryconcise.
Sarah Damoff (12:58):
Thank you.
Brett Benner (12:58):
Yeah, and people have been, saying that for fans
of Mary Beth Keen and ClaireLombardo and those, that's kind
of right on.
And I love both those authorsand for people who love those
authors, I think this is gonnabe like, you know, the kind of
the Cinderella perfect fit, forthose readers.
But now where my questionstarted for you, based on what
you were saying is who was yourcenterpiece at first for this?
(13:19):
Like, what was your inspiration?
Where did you kind of the accesspoint for the story to launch
off?
Sarah Damoff (13:24):
Great question.
Um, surprisingly, I, I feel thatit surprises many people, but it
began as mother and daughter, soLillian and Georgette, and
originally I wrote, this was anentire novel in letters.
It was the, my initial title wascalled The Bright Letters.
And when I.
(13:44):
Wrote it, rewrote it to not beepistolary.
It became the bright years, butit was originally, the conceit
was when a mother or any parent,but in this case it was a mother
has these things in her past andthen she has a child and you're,
and you're looking at this childand you're like, at some point
I'm, I'm gonna wanna tell you.
(14:05):
Who I am.
Mm.
And these things that maybe areheavier and there's no magic
line as a parent where all of asudden you're like, okay, my
child's now old enough.
She's ready to, to hear thesethings about, you know, who I
was before she was born.
And so that was the conceit, wasthis mother not really knowing
how to do it.
And even as her daughter was ababy, beginning to just write
(14:28):
letters to think, I, I wannatell her about this, but maybe
it's things she hasn't even toldother people.
and so that was the originalconceit, and Ryan, who is now a
very central character, the booksort of starts and ends with
him.
At first, he was kind of just a,he was Georgette's father, but
then he was kind of just a partof Lillian's past that she was
(14:49):
gonna be telling Georgetteabout.
And as she started telling herdaughter about her father.
And I started giving Ryan avoice.
He became much more central.
He, he just refused to be astereotype and he needed just a
lot more complexity and humanitythan he would've had if she were
to just tell her daughter, thisis who your dad was, but he's
(15:12):
gone now.
He, he couldn't stay that way.
That was my original plan, butit's not what happened.
So.
Wow.
Brett Benner (15:19):
And, and did and did a lot of that come.
Once you started working with aneditor in terms of the revision
process, or was that somethingthat you just started to figure
out yourself?
Sarah Damoff (15:28):
It was way before I worked with an editor.
It was within the first draft.
I realized he was gonna be abigger character and then with
each revision he, he startedtaking a little bit more space
on the page.
and in the story, so that it waspretty, I honestly, once I, I
sold the book and worked with aneditor.
Of course we did do edits, but,I think she would've said it, it
(15:49):
was a pretty light edit.
I had worked on the book, for.
Almost two years at the point.
At that point.
So,
Brett Benner (15:55):
and I'm so curious, especially for people
who are writing themselves.
Did you have an agent at thatpoint already or had you just
blindly started to send themanuscript out?
Sarah Damoff (16:07):
Um, Brett, I had nothing.
I, I didn't know what a queryletter was, which is, you know,
what you pitch an agent with.
Yeah.
I had no idea like anythingabout publishing the, how the
industry works, how you get anovel published, the di, the
different options forpublishing.
You've got traditional orself-publishing.
I didn't know any of that.
I always have been a big reader,but like many readers I didn't
(16:29):
pay attention to, whichpublishing houses were on the.
Fine of the book or mm-hmm.
Any of the, you know, I usuallydidn't read the
acknowledgements.
I just was, was reading.
And so, that was all a very new,big process and learning curve
for me.
I drafted it in about twomonths.
It was very fast.
Wow.
Wow.
(16:49):
It was, I was, I, I don'toutline, so it kind of a
discovery writer.
So it's, I I kind of describe itas like.
It's like an amplified readingexperience where you're just
like, the story just kind ofcomes out and I'd, you know, I'd
get so excited.
I'm like, what's gonna happennext?
And I really couldn't figure itout until I just.
Started typing it.
(17:09):
So it's, it's, it's almostaddictive to just keep going.
'cause you're like, just in thesame way you wanna turn the
pages when you're reading.
It was like, I just need to seewhat story's gonna come out
here.
So, um, it was, I have to do alot of work in revisions because
of that.
'cause I draft very fast to kindof learn the story.
It's almost like a glorified, italmost is a glorified outline,
but it's written, it's writtenin prose.
(17:30):
'cause that's just how I am ableto discover the story.
So the first draft, yeah, thatwas two months.
It was very fast.
I did, I showed it to a fewpeople, you know, friends and
family, and I, I kind of set itaside, forgot about it, didn't
touch it for, gosh, at leastlike six months and the
following summer.
I was starting to listen topodcasts about publishing and
(17:50):
start to think about that learn,and I just felt compelled to.
Open it back up and really diginto research, how do I do this
if I wanna get this published?
And, um, just as I learned more,I was revising the manuscript,
revising my pitch, and it wasabout a year later.
Um, so it was August.
September of 2023, um, that Isigned with my agent.
(18:13):
And then a few weeks later wesold it.
I was speaking with editors atseveral of the major houses and
then we sold it, um, in apreempt to Simon and Schuster.
So that part was.
Definitely a whirlwind.
Brett Benner (18:25):
Wow.
You are literally like LanaTurner at the counter, at the
soda shop with the person whosits next to them and says, I'm
gonna make you a movie star,because that's, that's
incredible.
what an inspiration.
That's, that's amazing.
That's really, really amazing.
Congratulations.
'cause you don't always hearabout it that way.
It's, you know what I mean?
That's great.
Sarah Damoff (18:43):
Thank you.
Yeah, I, I mean, I'll say itwas, I worked very hard, but I
know that there are people that,that spend a lot longer and I
feel so grateful for the, theagent editor I was able to
connect with.
'cause they have just beenperfect.
And yeah.
And like I said, I just, I wasso green, I didn't, I didn't
know anything.
I was, I know the first fewemails I sent to agents were
(19:05):
totally quote unquote wrong.
They were not, you know, theywere just, there was just me
talking.
I didn't know there was.
A particular format that wasexpected or any of that.
So I learned that slowly overtime.
Brett Benner (19:18):
And in, in a way though, I wonder if that kind
of, for lack of a better word,naivete worked to your benefit
mm-hmm.
Because mm-hmm.
You, there was not an extra kindof, if you did put that, um,
burden on yourself or thatexpectation that could have
impeded certain something.
Do you know what I mean?
So for this, you could just kindof be like, okay, I don't know
what I'm doing, but here it is.
(19:39):
Right.
And like, you let the work speakfor itself.
So it's so awesome.
Sarah Damoff (19:43):
Right?
That is, I, by the time I got myagent, I did have a good, you
know, more appropriateprofessional pitch, I think.
But, but I think you're right.
And that's something that in theend, I was able to feel that
much more confident in the workbecause I was like, you know, I
just, I had no connections inthe industry.
I, I have no platform.
I cold pitched people and I soldthe book.
So there must be something goodin it.
(20:04):
That's all I could tell.
Yeah, I would tell myself wasjust like, there's no other
reason I would get a book dealother than the book being
worthwhile.
So, no.
'cause there's too
Brett Benner (20:11):
much, right?
There's too much stuff theregoing through and there's too
many options, so no, a hundredpercent.
All right, so talking aboutthese characters, they're all so
great.
In their own right and in, invery different ways.
Lillian just to start with,because she kind of is the, the
launch off point of these peopleto me, she's really interesting
(20:32):
and I, I I wanna go back tosomething you said earlier,
which is so true when you'retalking about children and at
what point, um, it's appropriateto kind of let your child in on.
Your own history and your ownlife, because I feel like you
know.
When we're all kids, you, youlook at your parents as the
(20:54):
people that you know feed you.
They love you.
They do all the things they'resupposed to do.
You don't look at them asseparate individuals who have a
life, who had a life previous.
I once had an English teacherwho said, a child's biggest
disappointment is when theyrealize their father is
infallible and just human.
Yes.
And their second is when theyrealize their mother is the same
(21:16):
way as well.
Yes.
And I've always thought aboutthat.
Um, and even in parenting, doyou.
Like, do you find that as aparent, and do you also find
like, you know, at what pointare things appropriate to talk
about?
Because also I think parentinghas changed so radically from, I
know from when I was raised andhow I was raised and what we
(21:41):
talk about.
And I think part of that is dueand.
Part to the fact that most kidshave access to like a computer
in their pocket 24 hours a day,and there's such a dissemination
of information that's happeningthat we were never privy to.
Right.
Sarah Damoff (21:54):
Right.
Brett Benner (21:54):
So, do you find that, like with your own kids
and, and how do you, what do youhold back and what do you
actually share, I guess?
Sarah Damoff (22:02):
That's a great question.
yes.
I think it's interestingbecause, you know, not all of us
have children, but all of ushave parents.
Yeah.
Everyone has parents and we, andso my first experience with this
kind of.
Theme of when does a parentdisclose to their child more
about life and their life inparticular?
My first experience with thatwas as a daughter.
(22:23):
So as a daughter, learning whoare my parents, and what things
did they choose to tell me?
What things did I have to figureout for myself?
And questions that you have foryour parents and that, you know,
I had, my first child in myearly twenties, so maybe it's
because I had children youngthat.
That still felt kind of fresh tome.
My own journey with now I'm anadult, figuring out who my
(22:46):
parents were and, and just as weage, even if, if your parents
are very open with you, youstill, you still think about
things differently, questionsyou didn't know to have when you
were 15 years old.
All of a sudden when you're 22,you're like, wait, how did, did
this happen to my parents?
How did they do this?
Yeah.
So it's just something that onthe child side, everybody
(23:08):
experiences.
And so that was very much, in mymind becoming a parent and now
having three kids who arehitting teenage years.
I'm definitely, I'm very openwith them.
It's interesting with, you know.
My working in social work andworking with children for so
many years, I'm very aware ofwhat's developmentally
appropriate and just kind ofusing, my general, my children
(23:32):
are very sharp and I think allchildren are, I think a lot of
times we, we underestimate, andI know I have degrees of this as
a child, I remember.
My parents think I don'tunderstand something, but I do.
They think I didn't seesomething, but I did.
and I think most people have atleast a memory or two like that
from being a child, and wereally underestimate.
And so my general rule is to, toshare with them and response.
(23:59):
So I might not initiate.
Unless it's something that I'm,you know, it's just super
important that I talk to'emabout, I'm not gonna initiate,
let me tell you this thing abouthow That's right.
Heavy the world is, but ratherwhen they come to me with a
question or they bring somethingup, or they tell a story about
something they saw or theyheard, then I'll meet them there
and I'll meet them.
I'll, and I think they know.
I, they do because we have veryopen and they, they'll come to
(24:21):
me first with their questions.
I think they know that I will behonest with them.
I'm not, I'm going to, I'm gonnameet them at the level of their
question and I'll be honest withthem.
whether it's a question about mepersonally or just.
The world in general.
so I don't know if that answersyour question.
Brett Benner (24:35):
No, no, it does.
It's a, and it, no, it doesn't.
It's a hundred percent.
I was like, I was like, newparents, take note.
This is a great advice.
And, and I did, we did the samething, which is basically if a
question was asked, we wouldonly give as much as was asked
of us.
So if, if, if there's somethingasked, we would answer that part
of the question.
If it, if it invoked anotherquestion, we would continue, but
(24:57):
it didn't necessarily mean I.
Let's sit down and have thiswhole conversation about, you
know, global warming orwhatever.
Right, right.
Um, well, I'll answer assuccinctly and as appropriately
as I can this question that'sbeing asked.
Exactly.
Yes.
because I do agree with you and,and I think it, it speaks to,
and Georgette the daughter aswell.
(25:19):
Mm-hmm.
We do, kids do understand somuch more than we do to give
them credit for, and there is, Ithink, a built in, Well, I wanna
say empathy mm-hmm.
That exists within all childrenthat for whatever reason, gets
beat out.
And I don't mean physically, butI just mean beat out by life.
And I think that, um, Ryan is aprime example of that.
(25:42):
The father in this, of someonewho had a really horrible
childhood and kind of thegenerational effect of what this
is.
Absolutely.
Um, so.
It's also interesting toobecause, um, and I, I don't, I'm
not gonna give any spoilers awayat all, but, but, there is an
incident that happens inLillian's past that is integral
(26:04):
to her when they're talkingabout secrets.
And secrets exist in this bookin a lot of context.
But I had to read this passagethat I thought.
It was, uh, look, I'm not awoman.
I'll never completely understandthis feeling or even having the
opportunity to carry a child,right.
And the responsibility thatcomes with that.
But I loved this moment becauseI think this speaks to so many
(26:26):
women that, Lillian getspregnant and this is an early on
before.
Mm-hmm.
She's, this is an early part ofher life.
Right.
And it says, um.
What kind of woman gives away achild?
I could have kept him or had anabortion legalized a few months
ago, except I couldn't do thatwhen it came down to it.
Sometimes a woman's choice isbetween impossible and
(26:49):
impossible and impossible, andshe just has to make it.
Survival calculations becomemore urgent than rightness.
I just thought that was such anamazing.
Passage and I think it willspeak to so many women because
there are these impossiblechoices that you have to live
with.
And that Lillian ends up, uh,bearing up and doing what she
(27:13):
feels is right, and having noidea about what those
ramifications or how it's gonnaplay out later in so many ways,
both emotionally and, and, andbeyond.
Sarah Damoff (27:26):
Absolutely.
Brett Benner (27:27):
So I just thought that was great.
Sarah Damoff (27:29):
Thank you.
Brett Benner (27:29):
Um, Georgette, she speaks so much to me about the
resilience of the human spirit.
Hmm.
And the way that, we as humans,as individuals, and especially
children.
Survive in, in the face of, hugeobstacles.
can you talk a little bit abouther?
Sarah Damoff (27:51):
Yes, I think, I think you're right.
And I love that you said that.
I haven't thought of it in thoseexact terms that, you know, just
seeing resilience.
Through her.
I think that, um, you know, wesee her in this book.
One thing I wanted to do withthis book was a long arc of what
it's like to live.
I mean, it's, it's no spoiler orsecret that Ryan struggles with
(28:13):
addiction.
He has alcoholism.
Mm-hmm.
And it is not something where hejust, within a few years, he's
sober.
It's a, it's many decades of astruggle.
And so it's as, it's really allof Georgette's life.
And I think something that invarying degrees is true for many
(28:35):
parents is we experience orglimpse.
A particular kind of grace fromour children and you know,
whether it's something huge likewhat Ryan and Georgette
experienced or whether it'ssomething smaller.
I know I've had moments whereit's like my children see me
(28:56):
with.
Such generous eyes.
They, you know, when I, I'vemade mistakes or I've made a
mistake that hurts them or hurtstheir feelings.
And they're so, they're sogracious and forgiving and,
that, like you talked earlierabout just this kind of natural
empathy that's their, inparticular, with parents,
children can be very, you know,almost to a fault.
(29:20):
Protective of their parents,like, yep, a hundred percent.
And, and it's something that,that Georgette has to learn as
she goes through adolescence andinto adulthood and, and she has
to grapple with, you know, she'snot perfect at all either.
And so she has to grapple with,a child will always want to have
(29:41):
a good relationship with theirparent.
So she has that, but she also,they also have periods of
estrangement and times where hereally hurts her.
And, you know, the kind ofgenerosity of childhood
naturally, and probably it'shealthy.
She, she then has to learn howto, what to do with that pain
(30:01):
and with that anger toward him.
And, and she does that andthat's a big wrestle in her own
life.
And then that.
You know, maybe she can't evenarticulate as she, as she's
younger, but when she getsolder, just having to try to
make sense of herself and theways that she might even see her
dad in her and, where she'sgonna land in terms of.
(30:23):
Now, how do I see him?
How do I relate to him now thatI'm an adult?
And how am I like him and whatdo I do with that?
So I think those are some of herbig questions that she's, that
her character is asking in thisstory.
Brett Benner (30:35):
Well, and it's really beautiful how you've
carried, cause Ryan's an artist.
Mm-hmm.
And he has a gallery.
Mm-hmm.
And the way that translates.
To her as well, becoming aphotographer.
I really thought that was sobeautiful, the kind of way it
could, uh, there there can besome kind of flower in the dirt,
for lack of a better way ofsaying it really was.
(30:57):
I thought, oh my God, this is sobeautiful.
And I think it's a fun partabout being a parent is watching
in your children, what, uh,things are similar and what come
out and what, you know mm-hmm.
What things are, are, aredeveloping.
It's a really cool thing.
Sarah Damoff (31:13):
Absolutely.
And if I can just say too,'causejust with what you're saying, I
think it's so important, andthis was something I think this
is probably something that'sreally resonating from the
people I've heard from who have.
Lived with and loved someone whohas an addiction.
What was important to methroughout the book was showing
these moments of closeness andaffection.
(31:35):
And, because otherwise you'relike, why isn't, why does she
care about, why do they careabout each other so much?
But the reality is when you,when you love someone with an
addiction, usually you're still,in this case for sure, you're
still having.
Fun together.
Yeah.
You're laughing together.
You, I mean, the reason it hurtsso much is because you love them
(31:58):
so much that otherwise the painwouldn't be as heightened as it
is.
But, and because there's so muchback and forth because when
they're doing well or when youthink they're doing well, you,
you're having this great timetogether and you're feeling that
closeness of parent and child inRyan and Georgette's case and
then.
You're like, what did you donow?
That's, that's why it hurts somuch.
Every time he, he goes back tothe bottle and, and hurts her,
(32:21):
doesn't show up because thereare still times where he is
showing up and there and it'sjust a very human, real, you
know, I think it does happen,but it's the, it's a rare case
where it's just so extremewhere, um, it's just an awful
relationship.
Most sure.
I, I interviewed people and, andeveryone I, I spoke with.
It just, it was a, it's a very,it's a very back and forth.
(32:44):
It's, you know, otherwise youwould just cut them out of your
lives.
But it's like, you just can't dothat because you care about them
and, and maybe you see thatthey're really trying.
Brett Benner (32:54):
Yep.
And they had a good history.
Yes.
It's not like it startedimmediately and it was toxic and
he was abusive.
Right.
It wasn't that.
So it's something thatdeveloped, which is also very
real.
I mean, certainly I thinkeverybody knows about people in
relationships that I.
No one goes into a relationshipthinking, I really want this to
suck.
(33:14):
You know, you're, you're withthat person for a reason and
hopefully you are, you know,finding the support and the love
and all of the things thatconstitute a healthy and lasting
relationship.
But they did have that.
Mm-hmm.
So it's just something that, itmakes sense to me why Lillian
wants so badly to believe.
Mm-hmm.
Like you said, he's trying, he,you know, it's not just, It's
(33:38):
just the cycle and, and, andit's, and it's rough.
Sarah Damoff (33:41):
And I think he's made a lot of progress, even
generationally because what weknow of his dad, which is of
course much less, that was, thatwas a more difficult
relationship.
Sure.
He, he still comes into theaddiction and struggles with the
addiction, but he does.
So much better than his ownfather did.
And so even though there's thiskind of generational pain and
(34:03):
trauma, you still see someprogress and there's reason for
hope in that.
And of course that, you know,that makes the whole back and
forth that much more confusingwhen their characters are living
through it.
But you're right, he's, he'strying the whole time and he's
aware when he fails and he'strying to protect them from his
failures.
Brett Benner (34:22):
A hundred percent.
Because of this, what happenswith Lillian and Lillian, and
Georgette, um, you know, areliving in an apartment there,
there's such a also theme inthis that I love so much and,
and I talk about this on thispodcast with other authors.
A lot of the idea of foundfamily versus your given family.
Yes.
She has this great friend Shaunanext door, who has a son.
(34:42):
and.
They're just such greatcharacters in it and, and I
loved this idea of these twomoms coming together with their
children and then the longevityof that too.
It's really beautiful to see.
I just thought it was a greataddition to the fabric of the
book.
Sarah Damoff (34:59):
Mm-hmm.
Thank you for saying that.
Yeah.
I think found family is soimportant and friendships and
female friendships inparticular, and as adults, those
even, even when you might have ahealthy marriage, there are
certain things that you, youjust, you have to have more than
just your spouse.
Those friendships are soimportant, and especially when
you know your kids.
(35:19):
Can have another adult to lookup to and things like that.
So thank you for saying that.
Yeah,
Brett Benner (35:23):
no, sure.
Um, one thing I wanted to askyou really quick was your cover
is so beautiful and there's apicture on your Instagram with I
the original art.
Now, is that your painting?
Sarah Damoff (35:36):
Oh no.
Well now it is because Ipurchased it.
So, what the story with thecover is that I had, you know,
told the team at Simon Schusterwhen we were talking about
cover.
I told them I think it would becool if it could be painted.
And of course, even the font ispainted on this cover because
Ryan is a painter.
and so what they came back to mewith is they found.
(35:59):
This artist who's a painter inSouth Korea, her name is Young
Park, and she had this painting,which is now the book cover, and
that's the only one we everlooked at because it just was
immediately the perfect coverfor this story.
Just kind of the picture of needand humanity and hope at the
same time, all represented byher painting.
(36:21):
And so because they did this.
In this way, they just found apaint, an artist with her
painting, I was able to purchasethe original painting from her.
So that all came from, you know,Simon Sheer finding the cover,
and then I was able to purchaseit and it now hangs at my house,
so.
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
It's so special
Brett Benner (36:41):
and I will.
When these episodes go up, I'mgonna link her Instagram page as
well Please.
'cause I went and looked at allof her stuff.
Yes.
And she's beautiful artist.
It's beautiful.
But it also, um, it's sovibrant, like the picture on
your wall, I mean, the cover isso gorgeous, but to see the
colors kind of explode, youknow, it's, it's really
stunning.
Um.
(37:03):
I have to say, and, and, and inclosing, I'm not giving anything
away, but not every book sticksThe landing.
Mm.
This absolutely sticks Thelanding and.
It is finished.
So movingly and beautifullythat, uh, kudos to you.
I, I thought it was, I thoughtit was great.
Sarah Damoff (37:25):
Thank you so much.
So,
Brett Benner (37:27):
so everyone get the bright years, it's, it's
simply.
Fantastic.
I, I really, I cannot believethis is a debut.
It's so self-assured and, andreally stunning, buy
independent, if you're able tobuy independent.
and of course you can always goto my bookshop.org page and it
will be there as well.
Sarah, this was so delightful.
(37:47):
You're, you're just lovely.
I'm, congratulations on all ofit.
It's, it's really, really,really exciting.
Sarah Damoff (37:53):
Thank you for everything.
Thank you for having me today,Brett.
Brett Benner (37:58):
Thank you again, Sarah, and if you like this
conversation and otherconversations that you've been
hearing, please consider likingand subscribing to the podcast
on your podcast platform ofchoice.
And another thing.
If you can give a rating, fivestars would be incredible.
But also if you have the time towrite a review, everything helps
(38:19):
and that will only help thepodcast get seen by more people
so that I can continue to dothis.
Have a great week, and thanksagain for listening
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com