March 18, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with author Syed M. Masood to discuss his new book, The Last Man In Paradise. They talk about religious conservatism in current times, blending comedy and tragedy in writing, and take a nostalgic walk through sitcoms.
Syed's website:
https://www.syed-masood.com/
If you like what you're hearing on this podcast please subscribe so you never miss an episode!
Watch Behind the Stack on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@brettsbookstack
Bookshop.org page:
https://www.bookshop.org/shop/brettsbookstack
Brett's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/bretts.book.stack
Behind the Stack email:
brettsbookstack@gmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hello everybody and welcome or welcome back to
(00:02):
another episode of Behind theStack with me, Brett Benner,
your host.
I'm excited you're here.
How is everybody this week?
What are we all watching?
Has everybody enjoying the, newseason of the White Lotus?
I'm, I'm, I'm not a hundredpercent convinced yet, although
I do think it's the mostbeautiful location they've been
in.
Um, but I'm kind of, justholding out and we'll see.
(00:23):
I also started, Daredevil.
I loved the original Daredevil,so I have started that as well.
And we'll see.
I'm kind of interested, we'regonna see where it goes.
My biggest problem is I have ahard time staying interested in
stuff.
I get bored really quick.
So interestingly, not withbooks, but with television.
I absolutely do.
A couple of books coming outtoday along with today's guest.
(00:48):
The two others I wanted tomention.
First is Marcy Dermansky's HotAir, which is out today, which
looks really fun.
And then the other is, stop Meif you've heard this one by
Kristen Anette, um, which isabout a young woman who is a
clown for her profession and,her personal life and trying to
(01:13):
get it together.
Kristen will also be on thepodcast next week talking about
the book, but it's really,really fun and, she's a delight
now onto today.
And the last book that's comingout today that I was gonna talk
about and we're gonna spend thenext half hour discussing is The
Last Man in Paradise by SyedMasood I was really excited for
(01:33):
this interview because I lovedSyed's previous book, the Bad
Muslim Discount so much.
So I was thrilled that he had anew book on and I got the chance
to sit down and talk with him Alittle bit about Syed.
He grew up in Karachi, Pakistan,a first generation immigrant
twice over.
He's been a citizen of threedifferent countries and nine
different cities.
He's the author of The BadMuslim Discount and IndieBound
(01:56):
Bestseller and two Ya novels,more than just a Pretty Face and
Sway with me.
He currently lives in Canadawith his wife and two children,
so enjoy this episode of Behindthe Stack.
I'm really thrilled to have SyedMasood on the show today.
(02:19):
First of all, I have to tell youthat.
I was late to the game, but Iread Bad Muslim Discount last
year and I loved it so much andI, I remember when I read it, I
was like, I really wanna, Ireally wanna talk to this guy.
And so when I saw that you had anew book coming out, which is
the Last Man in Paradise, I wasso, so, so excited.
And I actually just postedsomething on my Instagram page
(02:40):
about this the other day when Ihad finished it and I had so
many people messaging me saying,oh, I didn't even know this is
coming out yet.
I'm so excited.
So congratulations and welcome.
Syed M Masood (02:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
Brett Benner (02:51):
By the way, when I was googling you, did you know
the first thing that came upbesides your picture is a
character from the show,EastEnders?
Syed M Masood (02:59):
Yes, I've seen that.
I've seen that.
Brett Benner (03:02):
Basically he's a gay Muslim I went through the
whole storyline on Wikipedia.
I was like, this is sofascinating.
And then I had a, and then I hada moment was like, well, this is
an interesting launch off of abook idea.
So we were talking before westarted about, you know, your
kind of nomadic existence, whichyou've always had that like you
grew up, moving around, correct?
Syed M Masood (03:24):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, my, dad cameto the States for his MBA we
went to Texas.
And then he decided to go backto Pakistan, and then he decided
to move to Canada and then backto the States.
And then for the last few yearsI've been traveling with my
family.
I've been dragging them around.
So we've had some incredibleexperiences.
We've gone to ASINs to.
Cairo Kuala Lumpur Indonesia.
(03:47):
We've been there.
We went to Pakistan for a while.
That was probably a mistake.
We traveled for three years.
I take my wife to Pakistan andshe's like, I think I want to go
home.
But yeah.
So right now we're in Canada,which I you know, went to
university here.
I, I love this place.
I'm glad to be back for a while.
Brett Benner (04:02):
Yeah, I love Canada as well.
Is it and your kids areadaptable?
They've done well.
Syed M Masood (04:06):
Yes.
They are getting to that stagewhere I'm starting to think we
should probably.
You know find, find some rootsand have them have a routine and
regular friends to go to schoolwith.
Yeah, so we're thinking about,you know, finding a place long
term, but but yeah, they'vebeen, they've had a, they've had
a blast, you know and they're,they've gotten very uSyed to
travel.
It's surprising how adaptablekids are, but I, I think they've
(04:29):
gotten to the point where nowwe're gonna.
We're gonna, we're talking aboutit.
We're thinking about it.
Brett Benner (04:32):
They're adaptable until they're not.
Now do you speak otherlanguages?
Syed M Masood (04:36):
Only Urdu'cause I grew up with it.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (04:38):
Okay.
Syed M Masood (04:38):
And I can, I can read Arabic, but I can't, well,
that's not true.
I uSyed to be able to readArabic, but I can't understand
it because they taught me thephonics.
So I could do the religious, youknow, rituals and stuff.
The prayers.
Brett Benner (04:51):
And how about, how about your wife?
Same.
Cool.
Did you meet at university?
Syed M Masood (04:56):
No, it was an arranged marriage.
Wow.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (04:59):
And it worked out.
Syed M Masood (05:00):
Yeah.
No, that was that was one ofthe, that's one of the big fears
when you're growing upPakistanian in a traditional
Muslim household, you know,you're, you're gonna have an
arranged marriage and you kindof hope it works out.
So, thankfully it did.
Yeah, she, she is actually, herfamily is from, her dad's from
India.
My family's from Pakistan, so wehad moved, my family had moved
from India to Pakistan when theseparation of the two countries
happened.
(05:21):
Yeah.
So so we have a lot of culturalcommonalities that way and yeah.
Brett Benner (05:25):
That's amazing., I know you went to William and
Mary School of Law, And you wereat University of Toronto for
English, what led you intowriting or what led you into one
or the other?
Was, was the idea like, okay,I'm gonna be a lawyer to support
my, my writing, or did you knowyou wanted to be a writer or how
did that kind of come about?
Syed M Masood (05:40):
Oh, well, I mean, I've been writing stories since
I was a kid and I've alwayswanted to be a writer as far as
back as I can remember really.
I went to University of Torontofor, I actually originally got
into the neuroscience program,which was not gonna happen, but
as with a lot of people from mybackground, I was being pushed
into the sciences.
And so going into English was a.
You know, was a big change.
(06:01):
But I loved it so much.
I, I could not do it.
And then you know the law, Isort of fell into it after
basically nine, 11 things got soweird.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, and Strange.
And then I sort of put a littlebit of that into bad Muslim you
know but it felt like the callof the times and then.
After that yeah, it, it being awriter was a dream that I never
thought would actually cometrue.
(06:22):
And I was just writing formyself and then one day I
entered a contest and I ended upgetting in and it sort of took a
life of its own from there, so.
Brett Benner (06:30):
Wow.
That is so cool.
I had another writer on who wasalso a lawyer, or formerly a
lawyer'cause she stopped.
But, so I have to ask you thatsame question is, did you find
that your time as a lawyer hadinfluence on your writing?
Syed M Masood (06:43):
It changes the way you write a little bit.
Actually, I think being a writerreally hurts you as a law
student.
Mm-hmm.
You know, you, you're, you'retaught to do certain things like
not repeat words in a sentenceor in a paragraph, and you're
trying to be more artistic andas a when you're doing legal
writing as a very differentexercise.
So what I find is there's a lotmore freedom in being a creative
(07:05):
writer, so it's, it's.
A lot of fun to be doing,constrained writing at one point
in your day, and then later youcan just sort of unleash and do
what you want to do.
So yeah, I, it, it, I don'tthink it influences it.
I think it makes you well, Isuppose it does influence it.
It makes you more cognizant ofyou know, are you getting to the
point soon enough?
Because just like the audience,the judges isn't gonna sit
around waiting for you to get toit, you know?
(07:27):
So yeah, be more aware of yourtempo.
It's brevity.
Yes.
It's, so, it's
Brett Benner (07:32):
fascinating because it's almost like between
the two, you're using twodifferent parts of your brain.
Syed M Masood (07:37):
Well, yeah, I mean, I was, I was gonna say,
gravity is not my strong suit,so it probably helped me a
little bit to, to have to, youknow, conform to this different
way of doing things.
Brett Benner (07:45):
God, I think I probably should have been a
lawyer.
I would've, I would've beenhelped as well.
All right, so you, you have yourtwo, what we'll say adult novels
for lack of a better thing.
And then you had two, which Ididn't even know that you had
these two works of, of youngadult fiction and I, I'd seen in
a previous interview, and Iloved, and I wanted, if you
could just talk about this, doyou explain where, how you term
the two genres?
Syed M Masood (08:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I always say that, you know,adult fiction is the fiction of.
Sort of despair.
Like, you know, I, I've arrivedat some point in my life and I
don't like where I am and howdid I get here and why did I get
here and how do I get out if Ican, you know?
And then young adult fiction isthe fiction of hope and it's
mm-hmm becoming, of trying to dothings for the first time.
(08:27):
So they're very differentgenres.
I love both.
My young adult novels I had alot of fun with.
It's just a very differentaudience.
You have to write differentlyfor them.
But you know, there's a, there'spros and cons.
I sort of go back and forthbetween the two genres.
But yeah, I I think I.
There's a lot to be said aboutyoung adult fiction and there's
some great authors working in itright now.
(08:49):
So
Brett Benner (08:49):
there's so many.
I agree with you and I and Ithink it's come so far.
Like I would, you know, when Igrew up young adult fiction was
the Hardy Boys
Syed M Masood (08:56):
I read like 60 of those.
Brett Benner (08:58):
Yeah.
Remember that would be like thebig Christmas gift.
'cause I get like three HardyBoy books that and possibly like
a Choose Your Own adventure and,and and CS Lewis.
That was it from, for my growingup.
But now, I mean, the scope is soincredibly wide and quite
frankly, it, they're sosophisticated.
Like the line is, is is tenuous,I feel between young adult and
(09:20):
adult fiction.
It's, it's so narrow.
So it's really cool.
Alright, so do you have anelevator pitch for your last man
in Paradise?
Syed M Masood (09:28):
For the last man, it is basically a, a young man
growing up in small town,California.
Who grows up with who's borninto a really religious family,
his fathers and Imam which islike a Muslim versions of a
priest.
And they want him to bereligious, or at least his
father wants him to bereligious.
And he wants him to follow inhis footsteps and become a
teacher like he is.
This young man is not at allreligiously inclined and that's
(09:50):
understanding it probably alittle bit rebellious.
So he ends up very very muchpissing off his father and
essentially gets exiled to Egyptso he can go to school there.
At a very famous universityAzer, which is in Cairo.
And he sort of escapes fromEgypt, goes to England and
becomes an actor.
Doesn't tell his family though.
He probably thinks he's becomethis mom whereas he's really an
(10:12):
actor and then there's gonna bea someone in the family that his
grandfather about to pass away.
So he has to come back to youknow, reading California again
for the first time in a decadeor so.
And he now, he has to pretend tobe an imam when he's not one.
And that's where the hi ensue.
So,
Brett Benner (10:28):
What, what, what was the genesis for this book
for you?
What was the idea that startedit?
Syed M Masood (10:32):
Oh, I'm gonna get in trouble for answering this
question.
This is the kind of thing thatgets me into trouble.
Brett Benner (10:35):
I could edit anything out.
Syed M Masood (10:37):
Oh, no, it's, it's just, you know, to be
completely honest, it waslistening to these, all
religions are conservative, inmy opinion.
By their nature, they'reconservative and, and Islam is
uniquely conservative because.
It, it uniquely says not only,not only you know, is this the
word of God, but it's the lastword of God and it's never gonna
(10:58):
change, and it's for all time,and we have all the answers,
right?
And so that leads to some reallyinteresting situations.
So what inspired this was justlistening to certain imams on
online, on the internet who arevery famous.
Just answer questions frompeople who have.
You know, questions like or, orsituations like, is temporary
marriage valid because you can'tdate people, but can you marry
(11:21):
them for like a few weeks andthen see if it works out if mon
didn't get a divorce?
You know, and so there are theseimams who have to deal with
these questions online.
And I remember watching a videowhere this morning imam was
complaining about this guy whowould just go, you know to these
poor countries and just marrywomen one after another, after
another, and just divorce themand get married again.
Because you can get marriedthrough four times.
(11:41):
But that's not, that's not anupper limit.
Four is what you can have at onetime, so wise as a man.
So that's what I was like, wow,dude.
There's some, there's a, there'sa lot of potential for humor
there because there's so many,you know so many different ways
people deal with these rulesthat they're born into.
And don't want to leavenecessarily because, well, I
(12:03):
mean.
For one thing, there are noIslamic states left anymore, but
in an Islamic state, you know,the, the penalty for aposty is
death.
So that's a pretty bigdisincentive for leaving.
What happens more realisticallyis just being ostracized by the
family.
No one speaks to you.
You come.
You lose a lot when you becomean ex-Muslim.
So a lot of people have to sortof find ways to navigate their
(12:25):
lives.
And so that, I know it soundsgrim, but it also creates
opportunities for comedy.
And that's what I always lookfor.
I, I, I look for things that arefunny but in a sad way.
Mm-hmm.
That's where a lot of my humorcomes from.
So bad Muslims like that.
This book is like that.
And I taught, you know, it wouldbe cool to put some of these
(12:46):
situations which Western readersdon't always get to hear about
in a, in a novel and, and sortof explore them.
Brett Benner (12:52):
Yeah, it's so interesting because first of
all, you've completely, and whatyou said earlier, in terms of
the wives, you've completelydescribed where you got the
character of Tiger from who isthe uncle who, who is one of my
favorite characters, and he's sofunny.
But yeah, it's such aninteresting thing because I
said, you know, you do a, agreat job of showing that why
religion can be pure.
Its, its followers might notnecessarily be, and, and also
(13:13):
the hypocrisy within.
It, and it's not even restrictedto the Muslim community.
I find it, you know, I grew upin a very conservative WASP
household.
I went to church camp everyyear.
But it was also such a strangething for me because I always
found the people who were themost kind of derelicts.
We're all under these trappingsand they were also the most
(13:35):
judgmental of other people,which was always so fascinating
as well.
Spirituality and religion aretwo very different things to me,
and that's something too thatcomes up in this book.
But also the idea that youpresent of like.
What is a good person and whatgood deeds and all of those
things.
And you paint things with a verygray stripe, should I say?
(13:56):
But how do you now as someonewho's Muslim, how do you.
Rectify religious dogma withcurrent life as it is.
Syed M Masood (14:05):
Right.
And that's the, that's thequestion of the book, right?
I mean, yeah, I think it's I, Ithink everyone has to find their
own answers to that.
You know, I, I don't know.
I, I think it was, this wasactually covered in bad Muslim,
I think, but there's a, there'sa line in Bad Muslim where they
talk about.
The two love interests aretalking and talk about how, you
know, when you come to the West,especially as a Muslim, you, you
(14:26):
sort of put yourself togetherlike a Frankenstein monster, you
know, and, and you can, sinceyou've put yourself together,
there's no one quite like youbecause you've taken some parts
of this life and some part ofparts of that life, a little bit
west, a little bit Islam or whathave you.
So.
You know, I think it's aquestion that is just not
limited to Islam, though.
I think it's every religiousYeah.
That because for all theirdifferences, religions are very
(14:48):
much alike, you know, in, inmany ways.
And so I, I'll often hear frompeople who are from different
religious backgrounds, we'llsay, yeah, I totally get this.
You know yeah, a hundred percentspecific, the specific dogma
will be different, but theissues are the same.
So I think it's a, it is a veryhuman experience of just trying
to sort of.
Reconcile your own conscienceand your own worldview with the
(15:10):
culture and the fate that you'veinherited.
Brett Benner (15:14):
Yeah.
You see a great, I love thisline in the book.
Talking he meaning Azan, the,the main character is talking to
his grandfather or his baba.
And he says there's a differencebetween science and faith.
And Baba says, no, there isn'tBaba countered.
They're the same thing.
Faith is magic before it isexplained and once it's
explained, we call it science.
And I loved, and I loved that somuch though, but, I agree with
(15:37):
you.
Like to, like it was, the wholething with fundamentalism is
fundamentalism.
We're, we're looking at it inthe United States now, this
Christian nationalism and thisfundamentalism it is the same
thing.
And, so I do think, like yousaid, there's a universality
behind all of this.
There's also, you know, there'sa moment in the book that is,
it's so shocking where, hisfather whips him with a belt.
(15:59):
And it's brutal.
And it's one of, it's, it's sointeresting because you do what
you say, which is your books areso funny, and then you'll throw
in this moment that's so realand so harsh that it's kind of
like getting cold water thrownin your face.
But at the same time, I feellike, and you could tell me,
putting that in there wasimportant to drive so much of
both of who these, this fatherson relationship and all of it.
Syed M Masood (16:21):
Right.
I mean, you know, there has tobe real consequence.
I mean, it's one thing to talkabout the doctrine and, and, and
the, it's not even Islam really,that that's just cultural.
And, and so, you know it's onething to talk about it in the
abstract and then one, whensomething like that happens, it
becomes real, right?
And, and then the consequencesare real.
And so, you know, one of themoments that surpriSyed me in
the book as I was writing itwas, you know, when Azan set
(16:44):
starts reflecting on what itmeans.
That his life as a missionPakistan kid in America is so
different from the girl thathe's in love with.
Jewish American.
And, you know, they're, theylive like in the same
neighborhood.
They go to the same school, youknow, and, and, and this, he's
thinking this has these raw fromhaving been whipped, and well
(17:04):
actually in, in that particularcase, it is the religion.
'cause that's the, punishmentfor drinking alcohol.
But parents aren't suppoSyed tocarry that out.
That's suppoSyed to be thestate.
And like I said before, thereare no Muslim states left.
So anyway at that moment hethinks, but I've always been
told this is good, right?
I mean, this is the melting pot.
This is, this ismulticulturalism, isn't it?
But why do I hate it now?
(17:25):
You know?
And, and so this is one of thosebooks I.
And one of those moments thatsurpriSyed me as to make an
admission that's unsurprising toanyone.
Know, as you believe in thesethings, and sometimes you know,
these moments in, in fiction orin real life happen, and you're
like, well, but that's not good.
Even though it, it sort ofmatches my philosophy.
Like I, I, I, I'm formal deculturism, but.
(17:47):
What do I say about this?
You know, yeah, it causes harm.
What do I do?
So that was a real moment for meas a writer.
Brett Benner (17:54):
It also, just thinking about this, it reminds
me of the question that peopleof faith have all the time in
terms of like.
Why do bad things happen to goodpeople or people praying to say
why did my children, you know,develop cancer and die and,
well, it's God's will.
And there's just a tremendousamount of, again, it goes back
to faith, I guess, of I, I'mgoing to accept that versus the
(18:17):
other argument of I have a hardtime accepting that a God, a
benevolent God would dosomething like this if he's
really, I don't know.
So it's that weird thing..
I know that you're really intositcoms and so I'm curious what.
What do you watch, and this is alarger conversation, but I just
am curious what, what do youlove sitcom wise?
Syed M Masood (18:34):
Oh I mean, we talked about scrubs'cause you
worked on it.
And one of my all time favoritesyou know, I, I I love everybody
Loves Raymond.
I thought that was fantastic.
I love Ray Romano as a, as awriter because, you know one,
some of the best writing adviceI ever got was through him, and
I've talked about this before.
But essentially, you know, hesomeone, one of his cast members
was talking about how.
(18:55):
You know, great was that theywere able to make this social
point that they wanted to make.
And, you know, Ray Said but youhave to earn it with the comedy,
you know?
And, and that's the thing youhave to earn.
The, and that I find is, is, youknow, there's a big conversation
in our culture right now aboutwoke entertainment, you know,
and mm-hmm.
What it means to be woke and,and what, I think if people
would just follow, Ray's advice,you know, you'd be fine because.
(19:18):
If you earn the right to saywhat you want to say, it won't
come across as preachy.
I mean, you know, star Trek wasbeing woke, like, you know,
right.
I mean, no one called it thatbecause they earned it with the,
with the, the suspense and theatmosphere and all, and all
that.
So I think it's just a matter ofearning it.
It's when, a writer wants to saysomething that doesn't
necessarily flow from thenarrative and it doesn't feel
(19:40):
earned.
That we get into trouble.
And that sort of covered in thisbook a little bit.
'cause I, I poke fun at myselffor the bad Muslim where, you
know in the end of bad Muslim, Iwanted to say something and I
sort of had to push it outthere.
And then later I was like, youknow, I'm not sure if I earned
that.
I'm, I'm not sure I earned thatparticular scene.
You know, and so one of thecharacters in this book calls
out.
She's a, she's a reviewer forfiction.
(20:02):
And she's like, that was bad.
That was bad writing.
So I, I think it's just yeah, Ithink as long as, as long as we
earn our our stripes like RayRoman does, we are, we're, we're
Okay.
Aside from that, you know,obviously the classic Seinfeld
arrested Development also.
Oh, so good.
It's a big name, but God, I lovethat show.
Oh my god.
Brett Benner (20:22):
And you know what, it's so funny'cause I just went
back and I started watching someof it again and it completely
holds up.
I mean, it's so good.
And like all of that, that castwas so incredible.
Syed M Masood (20:33):
You know it was, it was so funny.
Brett Benner (20:35):
Yes.
No, it is.
It was great.
But I ask, I asked all thisabout the the sitcoms, and it
makes total sense to me becausewhen I'm looking at the
construction of your book, itsometimes feels like a really
smart single camera comedy tome.
Even the way you've, like, Ikept thinking you could
literally be in a writer's roomfor a comedy because of two
(20:55):
reasons.
The book is almost structuredinto many vignettes that have an
A, b, and C storyline.
You have a great love interestthat's going on this, you know,
relationship that.
He's going home back to hisfamily, he's left this girl
behind.
Will this thing get rekindled?
It's so fantastic.
You also, and you did this inMuslim too, you create such
(21:20):
likable characters, I mean,incredibly likable that even
when they're doing somethingthat's despicable, you still are
with them.
And that's a real testament toyour writing.
Is there a particular characterin this one that you loved
writing so much that youcouldn't wait to get back to?
Syed M Masood (21:35):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, the grandfather, theBaba Charact was hilarious.
I mean, you know, I mean, and,and I get he, this is the kind
of stuff like I get a lot of Iget a lot of positive feedback
and then I get some people whoget very upset with me because
religious people.
Not always known for their senseof humor.
And so, you know, they, theydon't always like, what the way
(21:55):
I do things, but Baba characteris so outrageous, you know but
so flawed and human at the sametime.
Mm-hmm.
That I had so much fun with him.
And, and it was really sadbecause he wasn't in it, like
there were only a few sceneswith him in it, but he is in
some ways the, the catalyst forthe story to happen.
And he sort of orchestrates thisand it obviously goes completely
sideways on him.
(22:16):
But but yeah, the scene withhim, with Madison and Azan in
the hospital where he wants tofreeze his brain because he's
just realized, oh, I don't wantto die.
Turns out,
Brett Benner (22:26):
yeah.
Syed M Masood (22:27):
Is yeah.
Brett Benner (22:29):
And for our listeners or viewers Madison is
the previous girlfriend to Azan.
So when you started to put thistogether and you talked about
the inspiration for it, did youdo it with the idea of like,
okay, I'm gonna take this kid orthis young man and do this?
Or did you start with somebodydifferent and then start to form
around this idea?
How did it, how did it cometogether for you?
I.
Syed M Masood (22:46):
Yeah, no, I mean you know for me it, it starts
with Stephen King's book onwriting is, is really helpful
for me.
So essentially he says, think ofa scenario and sort of let your
characters in the story sort ofgather around this one scenario
or scene.
And the scene that came to myhead for some reason was a young
man, like putting on a fakebeard, like to become D Imam.
(23:08):
And, and so then that's like Icame up with the idea of the
fake Im mom and I was like, oh,this could really be something.
And then there was a bunch ofresearch because I wanted all
the religious stuff in the bookto be accurate, you know?
And, and even though I havegrown up with the religion you
know I.
What I was taught is not alwaysaccurate, so I have to, I have
to make sure that's accurate.
(23:28):
It was around the idea of, youknow, someone acting someone
putting on a show to become thisfake imam and, and that sort of.
Morphed into him being an actorwhich was not the original idea
but it seemed to fit reallywell.
It also gave me an excuse to useShakespeare and Chakov and
stuff, and that was so, youknow, that's always fine when
you can do that.
(23:48):
And so, yeah, that, that sortof, it started around Azan
though because.
It was such a compelling imageyou know, because it's literally
putting on, we all sort of dothis to a certain extent, right?
We all put on masks when we goout into public and we deal with
different types of people,different crowds of people with
our family.
We are one way with ourpartners.
We are one way with you know,and it, it's not even being
depleted being dishonest is, isreally just that's what people
(24:10):
need from you.
Sometimes, you know, differentpeople need you to be different
things.
And this is, it's a form of
Brett Benner (24:15):
code switching,
Syed M Masood (24:16):
right?
Exactly.
And this is just taking that tolike the nth level where, where
that's what the absurdity in thecomedy comes in.
Brett Benner (24:22):
it's so incredibly well done.
And then you also manage tolike, and again, I haven't read
your young adult books, but I'massuming that they deal high
romance because many of them do.
But your whole romantic side ofthis is so good.
And then another thing that youare such.
An incredible writer of, andthis is again, goes back to like
the idea of sitcoms is yourdialogue.
It is crackling.
(24:42):
It is so funny.
It is razor sharp.
It is back and forth.
I mean, I found myself laughingout loud, which only makes them.
Between the two of them.
So much more charming.
And you're like, my God, I feellike I'm in one of those, you
know, working title films fromlike the nineties, like four
Weddings in a Funeral in BridgerJones Diary.
It's just, it's, it's, it's sofantastic.
(25:04):
Now were you raised?
Was your, was your family veryconservative?
Syed M Masood (25:09):
No.
They became conservative.
So there's this phenomenon thathappens at this closing of the
ranks when people move fromMuslim countries, especially to
the west.
Because all of a sudden you,you've, you've never been a
minority and you're in aminority now, you know?
Yeah.
And so there's this sort of I, Idon't want to use this phrase,
but I will because I can't thinkof anything better.
(25:29):
There's sort of this like selfherding into like little pens.
And so we're like closing ranks,like, we're like huddled
together for like, we're likesheep huddled together for
warmth or something, you know?
I don't even know do that, butI'm assuming they do.
You know, so, but my kids arewatching a documentary.
I forget what the animal was.
Maybe it was penguins.
That makes more sense anyway.
So my point is that we closeranks, we become more
(25:50):
conservative and I also feellike we get trapped in, in time
because we sort of assume thatthe world we left behind is, is
always gonna be that way.
And it's really shocking when wego back and it's like, oh, the
world has moved on and thingshave changed.
You know, Pakistan now is notPakistan 20 years ago.
Obviously why would it.
Be.
But you know, when you leave aplace that's the frozen fragment
(26:12):
you carry with you.
And so they bring that here.
And then they become morereligious.
Their friends are all in thesame community because they
speak the same language and itsort of just sort of spirals.
And so my, my family became moreconservative over time.
They were much more liberal inPakistan, ironically enough, so,
yeah.
Brett Benner (26:30):
Interesting, interesting.
And it's funny'cause I wasthinking there's, you addresSyed
this passage in the book, alittle about that, a little bit
in the book in terms of, the,the tenuous relationship between
conservatives and liberals and,and, and also being Pakistani or
Muslim in this community.
But it's also, I sometimes feellike it's just what happens is
people get older or sometimesthey, they just tend to become
(26:53):
more conservative.
But it's also, we're watching ithappen on a grand scale right
now in the US in this kind ofinsane way.
This, you know, hearkening backto 1950s where, you know, women
stayed at home and made babies,and there was a white picket
fence, and, and everyone knewtheir place and everyone you
know.
Syed M Masood (27:13):
Yeah.
It's, it reminds me of that.
Another great sitcom.
This is an all time classic, butoh, what show was Archie Bunker
on?
Oh, all in the Family.
All in the Family.
God, I, I keep thinking of thetitle song, you know?
Brett Benner (27:24):
And all in the family would never get green lit
now.
Like you could never get that onthe air.
Like everything that happened.
And then the Jeffersons, thespinoff, all of these things
that Norman Lear was doing atthe time any of those shows
never would've gotten pastdevelopment.
Syed M Masood (27:38):
No, that's true.
And, and or in publishing, gotin published, but you know, I'm,
I'm just thinking about the factthat.
Even back then there was thisnostalgia of like, let's go back
to a better time.
Yeah.
And I think that'sinspirational, but for, for us
it's like global andpoliticized, you know?
So it's very different.
But even back then that, that,that title song is like, you
(27:59):
could, you could modernize theirlyrics and, and, and play it
now, and people will be like, ohyeah, this is what's happening
right now.
Brett Benner (28:05):
Yeah, no, a hundred percent, that's, that's
a hundred percent where we are.
It's such a weird.
I dunno, it's completelybizarre, but it, it kind of
rounds out our conversation inthat there is a universality
that is happening with this bookthat it doesn't matter in terms
of religion, which is the, sucha major theme of this book
because I think people of allreligions recognize not only
(28:26):
these people, but but what thearguments, discussions are.
And, and that's what makes it, Ithink so fantastic is use sit
there and say, okay, it's thesame.
It's, it's all really the sameand, and.
I think that's a testament toyou and your writing, which is I
think just, it's so fantastic.
Syed M Masood (28:44):
Well, thank you.
Appreciate it.
I mean, I, you know, one of my,one of the things of all my
books, like, aside from thisone, but all of them, including
Last Man is just, you know,having been everywhere, like not
everywhere, but having been alot of places in the world, you
know you sort of realize peopleare basically the same
everywhere.
They have the same needs anddesires and they've developed
differently and they havedifferent cultures and stuff.
But the fundamental humanity isthe same.
(29:06):
And so I try and capture thatand it's always gratifying to
hear that I did that.
So No,
Brett Benner (29:10):
you, you did it a hundred percent.
Look, I'm so excited for you,for our, for our listeners and
viewers, go get it byindependent if you can.
And if you've not read the BadMuslim discount, absolutely get
that.
'cause it truly, it is alsojust.
Equally as good as this.
I wanna thank you so much for,for being here today.
You're as funny as you are inperson, as you are in your
(29:32):
writing, so it's incrediblygratifying and I'm so excited to
see what happens with this bookand so congrats.
Syed M Masood (29:40):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for having me.
It was great talking to you.
I appreciate it.
Hello everybody and welcome or welcome back to
(00:02):
another episode of Behind theStack with me, Brett Benner,
your host.
I'm excited you're here.
How is everybody this week?
What are we all watching?
Has everybody enjoying the, newseason of the White Lotus?
I'm, I'm, I'm not a hundredpercent convinced yet, although
I do think it's the mostbeautiful location they've been
in.
Um, but I'm kind of, justholding out and we'll see.
(00:23):
I also started, Daredevil.
I loved the original Daredevil,so I have started that as well.
And we'll see.
I'm kind of interested, we'regonna see where it goes.
My biggest problem is I have ahard time staying interested in
stuff.
I get bored really quick.
So interestingly, not withbooks, but with television.
I absolutely do.
A couple of books coming outtoday along with today's guest.
(00:48):
The two others I wanted tomention.
First is Marcy Dermansky's HotAir, which is out today, which
looks really fun.
And then the other is, stop Meif you've heard this one by
Kristen Anette, um, which isabout a young woman who is a
clown for her profession and,her personal life and trying to
(01:13):
get it together.
Kristen will also be on thepodcast next week talking about
the book, but it's really,really fun and, she's a delight
now onto today.
And the last book that's comingout today that I was gonna talk
about and we're gonna spend thenext half hour discussing is The
Last Man in Paradise by SyedMasood I was really excited for
(01:33):
this interview because I lovedSyed's previous book, the Bad
Muslim Discount so much.
So I was thrilled that he had anew book on and I got the chance
to sit down and talk with him Alittle bit about Syed.
He grew up in Karachi, Pakistan,a first generation immigrant
twice over.
He's been a citizen of threedifferent countries and nine
different cities.
He's the author of The BadMuslim Discount and IndieBound
(01:56):
Bestseller and two Ya novels,more than just a Pretty Face and
Sway with me.
He currently lives in Canadawith his wife and two children,
so enjoy this episode of Behindthe Stack.
I'm really thrilled to have SyedMasood on the show today.
(02:19):
First of all, I have to tell youthat.
I was late to the game, but Iread Bad Muslim Discount last
year and I loved it so much andI, I remember when I read it, I
was like, I really wanna, Ireally wanna talk to this guy.
And so when I saw that you had anew book coming out, which is
the Last Man in Paradise, I wasso, so, so excited.
And I actually just postedsomething on my Instagram page
(02:40):
about this the other day when Ihad finished it and I had so
many people messaging me saying,oh, I didn't even know this is
coming out yet.
I'm so excited.
So congratulations and welcome.
Syed M Masood (02:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
Brett Benner (02:51):
By the way, when I was googling you, did you know
the first thing that came upbesides your picture is a
character from the show,EastEnders?
Syed M Masood (02:59):
Yes, I've seen that.
I've seen that.
Brett Benner (03:02):
Basically he's a gay Muslim I went through the
whole storyline on Wikipedia.
I was like, this is sofascinating.
And then I had a, and then I hada moment was like, well, this is
an interesting launch off of abook idea.
So we were talking before westarted about, you know, your
kind of nomadic existence, whichyou've always had that like you
grew up, moving around, correct?
Syed M Masood (03:24):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, my, dad cameto the States for his MBA we
went to Texas.
And then he decided to go backto Pakistan, and then he decided
to move to Canada and then backto the States.
And then for the last few yearsI've been traveling with my
family.
I've been dragging them around.
So we've had some incredibleexperiences.
We've gone to ASINs to.
Cairo Kuala Lumpur Indonesia.
(03:47):
We've been there.
We went to Pakistan for a while.
That was probably a mistake.
We traveled for three years.
I take my wife to Pakistan andshe's like, I think I want to go
home.
But yeah.
So right now we're in Canada,which I you know, went to
university here.
I, I love this place.
I'm glad to be back for a while.
Brett Benner (04:02):
Yeah, I love Canada as well.
Is it and your kids areadaptable?
They've done well.
Syed M Masood (04:06):
Yes.
They are getting to that stagewhere I'm starting to think we
should probably.
You know find, find some rootsand have them have a routine and
regular friends to go to schoolwith.
Yeah, so we're thinking about,you know, finding a place long
term, but but yeah, they'vebeen, they've had a, they've had
a blast, you know and they're,they've gotten very uSyed to
travel.
It's surprising how adaptablekids are, but I, I think they've
(04:29):
gotten to the point where nowwe're gonna.
We're gonna, we're talking aboutit.
We're thinking about it.
Brett Benner (04:32):
They're adaptable until they're not.
Now do you speak otherlanguages?
Syed M Masood (04:36):
Only Urdu'cause I grew up with it.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (04:38):
Okay.
Syed M Masood (04:38):
And I can, I can read Arabic, but I can't, well,
that's not true.
I uSyed to be able to readArabic, but I can't understand
it because they taught me thephonics.
So I could do the religious, youknow, rituals and stuff.
The prayers.
Brett Benner (04:51):
And how about, how about your wife?
Same.
Cool.
Did you meet at university?
Syed M Masood (04:56):
No, it was an arranged marriage.
Wow.
Yeah.
Brett Benner (04:59):
And it worked out.
Syed M Masood (05:00):
Yeah.
No, that was that was one ofthe, that's one of the big fears
when you're growing upPakistanian in a traditional
Muslim household, you know,you're, you're gonna have an
arranged marriage and you kindof hope it works out.
So, thankfully it did.
Yeah, she, she is actually, herfamily is from, her dad's from
India.
My family's from Pakistan, so wehad moved, my family had moved
from India to Pakistan when theseparation of the two countries
happened.
(05:21):
Yeah.
So so we have a lot of culturalcommonalities that way and yeah.
Brett Benner (05:25):
That's amazing., I know you went to William and
Mary School of Law, And you wereat University of Toronto for
English, what led you intowriting or what led you into one
or the other?
Was, was the idea like, okay,I'm gonna be a lawyer to support
my, my writing, or did you knowyou wanted to be a writer or how
did that kind of come about?
Syed M Masood (05:40):
Oh, well, I mean, I've been writing stories since
I was a kid and I've alwayswanted to be a writer as far as
back as I can remember really.
I went to University of Torontofor, I actually originally got
into the neuroscience program,which was not gonna happen, but
as with a lot of people from mybackground, I was being pushed
into the sciences.
And so going into English was a.
You know, was a big change.
(06:01):
But I loved it so much.
I, I could not do it.
And then you know the law, Isort of fell into it after
basically nine, 11 things got soweird.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, and Strange.
And then I sort of put a littlebit of that into bad Muslim you
know but it felt like the callof the times and then.
After that yeah, it, it being awriter was a dream that I never
thought would actually cometrue.
(06:22):
And I was just writing formyself and then one day I
entered a contest and I ended upgetting in and it sort of took a
life of its own from there, so.
Brett Benner (06:30):
Wow.
That is so cool.
I had another writer on who wasalso a lawyer, or formerly a
lawyer'cause she stopped.
But, so I have to ask you thatsame question is, did you find
that your time as a lawyer hadinfluence on your writing?
Syed M Masood (06:43):
It changes the way you write a little bit.
Actually, I think being a writerreally hurts you as a law
student.
Mm-hmm.
You know, you, you're, you'retaught to do certain things like
not repeat words in a sentenceor in a paragraph, and you're
trying to be more artistic andas a when you're doing legal
writing as a very differentexercise.
So what I find is there's a lotmore freedom in being a creative
(07:05):
writer, so it's, it's.
A lot of fun to be doing,constrained writing at one point
in your day, and then later youcan just sort of unleash and do
what you want to do.
So yeah, I, it, it, I don'tthink it influences it.
I think it makes you well, Isuppose it does influence it.
It makes you more cognizant ofyou know, are you getting to the
point soon enough?
Because just like the audience,the judges isn't gonna sit
around waiting for you to get toit, you know?
(07:27):
So yeah, be more aware of yourtempo.
It's brevity.
Yes.
It's, so, it's
Brett Benner (07:32):
fascinating because it's almost like between
the two, you're using twodifferent parts of your brain.
Syed M Masood (07:37):
Well, yeah, I mean, I was, I was gonna say,
gravity is not my strong suit,so it probably helped me a
little bit to, to have to, youknow, conform to this different
way of doing things.
Brett Benner (07:45):
God, I think I probably should have been a
lawyer.
I would've, I would've beenhelped as well.
All right, so you, you have yourtwo, what we'll say adult novels
for lack of a better thing.
And then you had two, which Ididn't even know that you had
these two works of, of youngadult fiction and I, I'd seen in
a previous interview, and Iloved, and I wanted, if you
could just talk about this, doyou explain where, how you term
the two genres?
Syed M Masood (08:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I always say that, you know,adult fiction is the fiction of.
Sort of despair.
Like, you know, I, I've arrivedat some point in my life and I
don't like where I am and howdid I get here and why did I get
here and how do I get out if Ican, you know?
And then young adult fiction isthe fiction of hope and it's
mm-hmm becoming, of trying to dothings for the first time.
(08:27):
So they're very differentgenres.
I love both.
My young adult novels I had alot of fun with.
It's just a very differentaudience.
You have to write differentlyfor them.
But you know, there's a, there'spros and cons.
I sort of go back and forthbetween the two genres.
But yeah, I I think I.
There's a lot to be said aboutyoung adult fiction and there's
some great authors working in itright now.
(08:49):
So
Brett Benner (08:49):
there's so many.
I agree with you and I and Ithink it's come so far.
Like I would, you know, when Igrew up young adult fiction was
the Hardy Boys
Syed M Masood (08:56):
I read like 60 of those.
Brett Benner (08:58):
Yeah.
Remember that would be like thebig Christmas gift.
'cause I get like three HardyBoy books that and possibly like
a Choose Your Own adventure and,and and CS Lewis.
That was it from, for my growingup.
But now, I mean, the scope is soincredibly wide and quite
frankly, it, they're sosophisticated.
Like the line is, is is tenuous,I feel between young adult and
(09:20):
adult fiction.
It's, it's so narrow.
So it's really cool.
Alright, so do you have anelevator pitch for your last man
in Paradise?
Syed M Masood (09:28):
For the last man, it is basically a, a young man
growing up in small town,California.
Who grows up with who's borninto a really religious family,
his fathers and Imam which islike a Muslim versions of a
priest.
And they want him to bereligious, or at least his
father wants him to bereligious.
And he wants him to follow inhis footsteps and become a
teacher like he is.
This young man is not at allreligiously inclined and that's
(09:50):
understanding it probably alittle bit rebellious.
So he ends up very very muchpissing off his father and
essentially gets exiled to Egyptso he can go to school there.
At a very famous universityAzer, which is in Cairo.
And he sort of escapes fromEgypt, goes to England and
becomes an actor.
Doesn't tell his family though.
He probably thinks he's becomethis mom whereas he's really an
(10:12):
actor and then there's gonna bea someone in the family that his
grandfather about to pass away.
So he has to come back to youknow, reading California again
for the first time in a decadeor so.
And he now, he has to pretend tobe an imam when he's not one.
And that's where the hi ensue.
So,
Brett Benner (10:28):
What, what, what was the genesis for this book
for you?
What was the idea that startedit?
Syed M Masood (10:32):
Oh, I'm gonna get in trouble for answering this
question.
This is the kind of thing thatgets me into trouble.
Brett Benner (10:35):
I could edit anything out.
Syed M Masood (10:37):
Oh, no, it's, it's just, you know, to be
completely honest, it waslistening to these, all
religions are conservative, inmy opinion.
By their nature, they'reconservative and, and Islam is
uniquely conservative because.
It, it uniquely says not only,not only you know, is this the
word of God, but it's the lastword of God and it's never gonna
(10:58):
change, and it's for all time,and we have all the answers,
right?
And so that leads to some reallyinteresting situations.
So what inspired this was justlistening to certain imams on
online, on the internet who arevery famous.
Just answer questions frompeople who have.
You know, questions like or, orsituations like, is temporary
marriage valid because you can'tdate people, but can you marry
(11:21):
them for like a few weeks andthen see if it works out if mon
didn't get a divorce?
You know, and so there are theseimams who have to deal with
these questions online.
And I remember watching a videowhere this morning imam was
complaining about this guy whowould just go, you know to these
poor countries and just marrywomen one after another, after
another, and just divorce themand get married again.
Because you can get marriedthrough four times.
(11:41):
But that's not, that's not anupper limit.
Four is what you can have at onetime, so wise as a man.
So that's what I was like, wow,dude.
There's some, there's a, there'sa lot of potential for humor
there because there's so many,you know so many different ways
people deal with these rulesthat they're born into.
And don't want to leavenecessarily because, well, I
(12:03):
mean.
For one thing, there are noIslamic states left anymore, but
in an Islamic state, you know,the, the penalty for aposty is
death.
So that's a pretty bigdisincentive for leaving.
What happens more realisticallyis just being ostracized by the
family.
No one speaks to you.
You come.
You lose a lot when you becomean ex-Muslim.
So a lot of people have to sortof find ways to navigate their
(12:25):
lives.
And so that, I know it soundsgrim, but it also creates
opportunities for comedy.
And that's what I always lookfor.
I, I, I look for things that arefunny but in a sad way.
Mm-hmm.
That's where a lot of my humorcomes from.
So bad Muslims like that.
This book is like that.
And I taught, you know, it wouldbe cool to put some of these
(12:46):
situations which Western readersdon't always get to hear about
in a, in a novel and, and sortof explore them.
Brett Benner (12:52):
Yeah, it's so interesting because first of
all, you've completely, and whatyou said earlier, in terms of
the wives, you've completelydescribed where you got the
character of Tiger from who isthe uncle who, who is one of my
favorite characters, and he's sofunny.
But yeah, it's such aninteresting thing because I
said, you know, you do a, agreat job of showing that why
religion can be pure.
Its, its followers might notnecessarily be, and, and also
(13:13):
the hypocrisy within.
It, and it's not even restrictedto the Muslim community.
I find it, you know, I grew upin a very conservative WASP
household.
I went to church camp everyyear.
But it was also such a strangething for me because I always
found the people who were themost kind of derelicts.
We're all under these trappingsand they were also the most
(13:35):
judgmental of other people,which was always so fascinating
as well.
Spirituality and religion aretwo very different things to me,
and that's something too thatcomes up in this book.
But also the idea that youpresent of like.
What is a good person and whatgood deeds and all of those
things.
And you paint things with a verygray stripe, should I say?
(13:56):
But how do you now as someonewho's Muslim, how do you.
Rectify religious dogma withcurrent life as it is.
Syed M Masood (14:05):
Right.
And that's the, that's thequestion of the book, right?
I mean, yeah, I think it's I, Ithink everyone has to find their
own answers to that.
You know, I, I don't know.
I, I think it was, this wasactually covered in bad Muslim,
I think, but there's a, there'sa line in Bad Muslim where they
talk about.
The two love interests aretalking and talk about how, you
know, when you come to the West,especially as a Muslim, you, you
(14:26):
sort of put yourself togetherlike a Frankenstein monster, you
know, and, and you can, sinceyou've put yourself together,
there's no one quite like youbecause you've taken some parts
of this life and some part ofparts of that life, a little bit
west, a little bit Islam or whathave you.
So.
You know, I think it's aquestion that is just not
limited to Islam, though.
I think it's every religiousYeah.
That because for all theirdifferences, religions are very
(14:48):
much alike, you know, in, inmany ways.
And so I, I'll often hear frompeople who are from different
religious backgrounds, we'llsay, yeah, I totally get this.
You know yeah, a hundred percentspecific, the specific dogma
will be different, but theissues are the same.
So I think it's a, it is a veryhuman experience of just trying
to sort of.
Reconcile your own conscienceand your own worldview with the
(15:10):
culture and the fate that you'veinherited.
Brett Benner (15:14):
Yeah.
You see a great, I love thisline in the book.
Talking he meaning Azan, the,the main character is talking to
his grandfather or his baba.
And he says there's a differencebetween science and faith.
And Baba says, no, there isn'tBaba countered.
They're the same thing.
Faith is magic before it isexplained and once it's
explained, we call it science.
And I loved, and I loved that somuch though, but, I agree with
(15:37):
you.
Like to, like it was, the wholething with fundamentalism is
fundamentalism.
We're, we're looking at it inthe United States now, this
Christian nationalism and thisfundamentalism it is the same
thing.
And, so I do think, like yousaid, there's a universality
behind all of this.
There's also, you know, there'sa moment in the book that is,
it's so shocking where, hisfather whips him with a belt.
(15:59):
And it's brutal.
And it's one of, it's, it's sointeresting because you do what
you say, which is your books areso funny, and then you'll throw
in this moment that's so realand so harsh that it's kind of
like getting cold water thrownin your face.
But at the same time, I feellike, and you could tell me,
putting that in there wasimportant to drive so much of
both of who these, this fatherson relationship and all of it.
Syed M Masood (16:21):
Right.
I mean, you know, there has tobe real consequence.
I mean, it's one thing to talkabout the doctrine and, and, and
the, it's not even Islam really,that that's just cultural.
And, and so, you know it's onething to talk about it in the
abstract and then one, whensomething like that happens, it
becomes real, right?
And, and then the consequencesare real.
And so, you know, one of themoments that surpriSyed me in
the book as I was writing itwas, you know, when Azan set
(16:44):
starts reflecting on what itmeans.
That his life as a missionPakistan kid in America is so
different from the girl thathe's in love with.
Jewish American.
And, you know, they're, theylive like in the same
neighborhood.
They go to the same school, youknow, and, and, and this, he's
thinking this has these raw fromhaving been whipped, and well
(17:04):
actually in, in that particularcase, it is the religion.
'cause that's the, punishmentfor drinking alcohol.
But parents aren't suppoSyed tocarry that out.
That's suppoSyed to be thestate.
And like I said before, thereare no Muslim states left.
So anyway at that moment hethinks, but I've always been
told this is good, right?
I mean, this is the melting pot.
This is, this ismulticulturalism, isn't it?
But why do I hate it now?
(17:25):
You know?
And, and so this is one of thosebooks I.
And one of those moments thatsurpriSyed me as to make an
admission that's unsurprising toanyone.
Know, as you believe in thesethings, and sometimes you know,
these moments in, in fiction orin real life happen, and you're
like, well, but that's not good.
Even though it, it sort ofmatches my philosophy.
Like I, I, I, I'm formal deculturism, but.
(17:47):
What do I say about this?
You know, yeah, it causes harm.
What do I do?
So that was a real moment for meas a writer.
Brett Benner (17:54):
It also, just thinking about this, it reminds
me of the question that peopleof faith have all the time in
terms of like.
Why do bad things happen to goodpeople or people praying to say
why did my children, you know,develop cancer and die and,
well, it's God's will.
And there's just a tremendousamount of, again, it goes back
to faith, I guess, of I, I'mgoing to accept that versus the
(18:17):
other argument of I have a hardtime accepting that a God, a
benevolent God would dosomething like this if he's
really, I don't know.
So it's that weird thing..
I know that you're really intositcoms and so I'm curious what.
What do you watch, and this is alarger conversation, but I just
am curious what, what do youlove sitcom wise?
Syed M Masood (18:34):
Oh I mean, we talked about scrubs'cause you
worked on it.
And one of my all time favoritesyou know, I, I I love everybody
Loves Raymond.
I thought that was fantastic.
I love Ray Romano as a, as awriter because, you know one,
some of the best writing adviceI ever got was through him, and
I've talked about this before.
But essentially, you know, hesomeone, one of his cast members
was talking about how.
(18:55):
You know, great was that theywere able to make this social
point that they wanted to make.
And, you know, Ray Said but youhave to earn it with the comedy,
you know?
And, and that's the thing youhave to earn.
The, and that I find is, is, youknow, there's a big conversation
in our culture right now aboutwoke entertainment, you know,
and mm-hmm.
What it means to be woke and,and what, I think if people
would just follow, Ray's advice,you know, you'd be fine because.
(19:18):
If you earn the right to saywhat you want to say, it won't
come across as preachy.
I mean, you know, star Trek wasbeing woke, like, you know,
right.
I mean, no one called it thatbecause they earned it with the,
with the, the suspense and theatmosphere and all, and all
that.
So I think it's just a matter ofearning it.
It's when, a writer wants to saysomething that doesn't
necessarily flow from thenarrative and it doesn't feel
(19:40):
earned.
That we get into trouble.
And that sort of covered in thisbook a little bit.
'cause I, I poke fun at myselffor the bad Muslim where, you
know in the end of bad Muslim, Iwanted to say something and I
sort of had to push it outthere.
And then later I was like, youknow, I'm not sure if I earned
that.
I'm, I'm not sure I earned thatparticular scene.
You know, and so one of thecharacters in this book calls
out.
She's a, she's a reviewer forfiction.
(20:02):
And she's like, that was bad.
That was bad writing.
So I, I think it's just yeah, Ithink as long as, as long as we
earn our our stripes like RayRoman does, we are, we're, we're
Okay.
Aside from that, you know,obviously the classic Seinfeld
arrested Development also.
Oh, so good.
It's a big name, but God, I lovethat show.
Oh my god.
Brett Benner (20:22):
And you know what, it's so funny'cause I just went
back and I started watching someof it again and it completely
holds up.
I mean, it's so good.
And like all of that, that castwas so incredible.
Syed M Masood (20:33):
You know it was, it was so funny.
Brett Benner (20:35):
Yes.
No, it is.
It was great.
But I ask, I asked all thisabout the the sitcoms, and it
makes total sense to me becausewhen I'm looking at the
construction of your book, itsometimes feels like a really
smart single camera comedy tome.
Even the way you've, like, Ikept thinking you could
literally be in a writer's roomfor a comedy because of two
(20:55):
reasons.
The book is almost structuredinto many vignettes that have an
A, b, and C storyline.
You have a great love interestthat's going on this, you know,
relationship that.
He's going home back to hisfamily, he's left this girl
behind.
Will this thing get rekindled?
It's so fantastic.
You also, and you did this inMuslim too, you create such
(21:20):
likable characters, I mean,incredibly likable that even
when they're doing somethingthat's despicable, you still are
with them.
And that's a real testament toyour writing.
Is there a particular characterin this one that you loved
writing so much that youcouldn't wait to get back to?
Syed M Masood (21:35):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, the grandfather, theBaba Charact was hilarious.
I mean, you know, I mean, and,and I get he, this is the kind
of stuff like I get a lot of Iget a lot of positive feedback
and then I get some people whoget very upset with me because
religious people.
Not always known for their senseof humor.
And so, you know, they, theydon't always like, what the way
(21:55):
I do things, but Baba characteris so outrageous, you know but
so flawed and human at the sametime.
Mm-hmm.
That I had so much fun with him.
And, and it was really sadbecause he wasn't in it, like
there were only a few sceneswith him in it, but he is in
some ways the, the catalyst forthe story to happen.
And he sort of orchestrates thisand it obviously goes completely
sideways on him.
(22:16):
But but yeah, the scene withhim, with Madison and Azan in
the hospital where he wants tofreeze his brain because he's
just realized, oh, I don't wantto die.
Turns out,
Brett Benner (22:26):
yeah.
Syed M Masood (22:27):
Is yeah.
Brett Benner (22:29):
And for our listeners or viewers Madison is
the previous girlfriend to Azan.
So when you started to put thistogether and you talked about
the inspiration for it, did youdo it with the idea of like,
okay, I'm gonna take this kid orthis young man and do this?
Or did you start with somebodydifferent and then start to form
around this idea?
How did it, how did it cometogether for you?
I.
Syed M Masood (22:46):
Yeah, no, I mean you know for me it, it starts
with Stephen King's book onwriting is, is really helpful
for me.
So essentially he says, think ofa scenario and sort of let your
characters in the story sort ofgather around this one scenario
or scene.
And the scene that came to myhead for some reason was a young
man, like putting on a fakebeard, like to become D Imam.
(23:08):
And, and so then that's like Icame up with the idea of the
fake Im mom and I was like, oh,this could really be something.
And then there was a bunch ofresearch because I wanted all
the religious stuff in the bookto be accurate, you know?
And, and even though I havegrown up with the religion you
know I.
What I was taught is not alwaysaccurate, so I have to, I have
to make sure that's accurate.
(23:28):
It was around the idea of, youknow, someone acting someone
putting on a show to become thisfake imam and, and that sort of.
Morphed into him being an actorwhich was not the original idea
but it seemed to fit reallywell.
It also gave me an excuse to useShakespeare and Chakov and
stuff, and that was so, youknow, that's always fine when
you can do that.
(23:48):
And so, yeah, that, that sortof, it started around Azan
though because.
It was such a compelling imageyou know, because it's literally
putting on, we all sort of dothis to a certain extent, right?
We all put on masks when we goout into public and we deal with
different types of people,different crowds of people with
our family.
We are one way with ourpartners.
We are one way with you know,and it, it's not even being
depleted being dishonest is, isreally just that's what people
(24:10):
need from you.
Sometimes, you know, differentpeople need you to be different
things.
And this is, it's a form of
Brett Benner (24:15):
code switching,
Syed M Masood (24:16):
right?
Exactly.
And this is just taking that tolike the nth level where, where
that's what the absurdity in thecomedy comes in.
Brett Benner (24:22):
it's so incredibly well done.
And then you also manage tolike, and again, I haven't read
your young adult books, but I'massuming that they deal high
romance because many of them do.
But your whole romantic side ofthis is so good.
And then another thing that youare such.
An incredible writer of, andthis is again, goes back to like
the idea of sitcoms is yourdialogue.
It is crackling.
(24:42):
It is so funny.
It is razor sharp.
It is back and forth.
I mean, I found myself laughingout loud, which only makes them.
Between the two of them.
So much more charming.
And you're like, my God, I feellike I'm in one of those, you
know, working title films fromlike the nineties, like four
Weddings in a Funeral in BridgerJones Diary.
It's just, it's, it's, it's sofantastic.
(25:04):
Now were you raised?
Was your, was your family veryconservative?
Syed M Masood (25:09):
No.
They became conservative.
So there's this phenomenon thathappens at this closing of the
ranks when people move fromMuslim countries, especially to
the west.
Because all of a sudden you,you've, you've never been a
minority and you're in aminority now, you know?
Yeah.
And so there's this sort of I, Idon't want to use this phrase,
but I will because I can't thinkof anything better.
(25:29):
There's sort of this like selfherding into like little pens.
And so we're like closing ranks,like, we're like huddled
together for like, we're likesheep huddled together for
warmth or something, you know?
I don't even know do that, butI'm assuming they do.
You know, so, but my kids arewatching a documentary.
I forget what the animal was.
Maybe it was penguins.
That makes more sense anyway.
So my point is that we closeranks, we become more
(25:50):
conservative and I also feellike we get trapped in, in time
because we sort of assume thatthe world we left behind is, is
always gonna be that way.
And it's really shocking when wego back and it's like, oh, the
world has moved on and thingshave changed.
You know, Pakistan now is notPakistan 20 years ago.
Obviously why would it.
Be.
But you know, when you leave aplace that's the frozen fragment
(26:12):
you carry with you.
And so they bring that here.
And then they become morereligious.
Their friends are all in thesame community because they
speak the same language and itsort of just sort of spirals.
And so my, my family became moreconservative over time.
They were much more liberal inPakistan, ironically enough, so,
yeah.
Brett Benner (26:30):
Interesting, interesting.
And it's funny'cause I wasthinking there's, you addresSyed
this passage in the book, alittle about that, a little bit
in the book in terms of, the,the tenuous relationship between
conservatives and liberals and,and, and also being Pakistani or
Muslim in this community.
But it's also, I sometimes feellike it's just what happens is
people get older or sometimesthey, they just tend to become
(26:53):
more conservative.
But it's also, we're watching ithappen on a grand scale right
now in the US in this kind ofinsane way.
This, you know, hearkening backto 1950s where, you know, women
stayed at home and made babies,and there was a white picket
fence, and, and everyone knewtheir place and everyone you
know.
Syed M Masood (27:13):
Yeah.
It's, it reminds me of that.
Another great sitcom.
This is an all time classic, butoh, what show was Archie Bunker
on?
Oh, all in the Family.
All in the Family.
God, I, I keep thinking of thetitle song, you know?
Brett Benner (27:24):
And all in the family would never get green lit
now.
Like you could never get that onthe air.
Like everything that happened.
And then the Jeffersons, thespinoff, all of these things
that Norman Lear was doing atthe time any of those shows
never would've gotten pastdevelopment.
Syed M Masood (27:38):
No, that's true.
And, and or in publishing, gotin published, but you know, I'm,
I'm just thinking about the factthat.
Even back then there was thisnostalgia of like, let's go back
to a better time.
Yeah.
And I think that'sinspirational, but for, for us
it's like global andpoliticized, you know?
So it's very different.
But even back then that, that,that title song is like, you
(27:59):
could, you could modernize theirlyrics and, and, and play it
now, and people will be like, ohyeah, this is what's happening
right now.
Brett Benner (28:05):
Yeah, no, a hundred percent, that's, that's
a hundred percent where we are.
It's such a weird.
I dunno, it's completelybizarre, but it, it kind of
rounds out our conversation inthat there is a universality
that is happening with this bookthat it doesn't matter in terms
of religion, which is the, sucha major theme of this book
because I think people of allreligions recognize not only
(28:26):
these people, but but what thearguments, discussions are.
And, and that's what makes it, Ithink so fantastic is use sit
there and say, okay, it's thesame.
It's, it's all really the sameand, and.
I think that's a testament toyou and your writing, which is I
think just, it's so fantastic.
Syed M Masood (28:44):
Well, thank you.
Appreciate it.
I mean, I, you know, one of my,one of the things of all my
books, like, aside from thisone, but all of them, including
Last Man is just, you know,having been everywhere, like not
everywhere, but having been alot of places in the world, you
know you sort of realize peopleare basically the same
everywhere.
They have the same needs anddesires and they've developed
differently and they havedifferent cultures and stuff.
But the fundamental humanity isthe same.
(29:06):
And so I try and capture thatand it's always gratifying to
hear that I did that.
So No,
Brett Benner (29:10):
you, you did it a hundred percent.
Look, I'm so excited for you,for our, for our listeners and
viewers, go get it byindependent if you can.
And if you've not read the BadMuslim discount, absolutely get
that.
'cause it truly, it is alsojust.
Equally as good as this.
I wanna thank you so much for,for being here today.
You're as funny as you are inperson, as you are in your
(29:32):
writing, so it's incrediblygratifying and I'm so excited to
see what happens with this bookand so congrats.
Syed M Masood (29:40):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for having me.
It was great talking to you.
I appreciate it.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.