June 10, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode Brett sits down with author V.E. Schwab to discuss her latest book, Bury Our Bones In The Midnight Soil. They talk about when heroes disappoint, tackling multiple projects at once, generosity to fans, and paying homage to Anne Rice and her world of vampires.
V.E.'s website:
https://www.veschwab.com/
V.E.'s instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/veschwab/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Benner (00:00):
Hey everybody.
It's Brett Benner, and welcomeor welcome back to another
episode of Behind the Stack Aswe continue double feature June
this week with V Schwab for hernew book, Bury our Bones and The
Midnight Soil.
But before we get to that, therewere a couple more books that
are coming out in this massiverelease day that I just wanted
to mention.
The first is Days of Light.
(00:20):
By Meghan Hunter, a sweeping,sensual, historical novel about
one woman's unconventional life.
Lived in search of an answer bythe award-winning author of the
End.
We start from and the harpy,then death at the White heart.
By Chris Chibnall.
This is a fantastic book forfans of the TV show, broad
(00:41):
Church, and also because ChrisChibnall, who wrote it, is the
creator of Broad Church.
He will be on the podcast nextweek, but this involves a murder
in a small town and who could bethe killer also out today.
Great Black Hope by RobFranklin.
This is a terrific debut.
(01:03):
Rob will be on the podcast laterthis week.
A gripping, elegant debut novelabout a young black man caught
between worlds of race andclass, glamor and tragedy, a
friend's mysterious death, andhis own arrest from an
electrifying new voice.
So look for that interview laterthis week.
Also.
One of my personal favorites,king of Ashes by SA Cosby.
(01:27):
I love his writing.
This is kind of being dubbed hisversion of The Godfather, so
look for that on the nonfictionfront.
This sounds so interesting tome.
Murder Land by Carolyn Frazier.
From the Pulitzer Prizewinning,author of Prairie Fires, comes a
terrifying true crime history ofserial killers in the Pacific
(01:48):
Northwest and beyond.
A gripping investigation of howa new strain of psychopath
emerged out of a toxic landscapeof deadly industrial violence.
So that is out today as well asfantastic author Jess Walters,
his new book So Far Gone.
Jess will be on the podcast nextweek talking about this book,
(02:09):
Which is about a reclusivejournalist who's forced back
into the world to rescue hiskidnapped grandchildren.
It's great.
And so I look forward to you allhearing that interview as well.
And then finally, this soundsinteresting to me, midnight at
the Cinema Palace by ChristopherTradowski, this tender,
exuberant novel about a youngman navigating coming of age in
(02:31):
nineties San Francisco forreaders of Garth Greenwell and
Andre Asman.
So check out those books today.
Like I said, this is such a hugeweek for books.
But back to the star of the showtoday, which is V Schwab.
Such a delight.
A little bit about V.
(02:52):
She is the number one New YorkTimes bestselling author of more
than 25 books.
Schwab series and standalonetitles for readers of all ages
have made her a major literaryfigure whose notable works
include the villain series, theShades of Magic Universe, and
the Invisible Life of AddieLaRue when she's not hunting
(03:12):
Paris streets or riding in thecorner of her favorite coffee
shop.
She lives in Edinburgh,Scotland.
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
I am so thrilled to be sittingdown with V Schwab, which is so
exciting for her new book, Bury,our Bones in the Midnight Soil.
(03:35):
it is so good.
It is the number one.
Indie Pick for June.
It is starred reviews from bothpublishers Weekly and Kikis.
It's getting so much crazypre-publication and worthy hype.
So congratulations and thank youso much for being with me today.
V.E. Schwab (03:52):
Thank you for having me.
I, as you can tell, I've like,the anxiety is, it's big right
now.
It's, it's it's hope and fearall tangled up, but I don't know
what to do with hope and I knowwhat to do with fear, so it just
becomes a very loud emotion.
Brett Benner (04:06):
Oh my God.
So before we get into the bookand, and I'm just gonna say to
our viewers and our listeners.
We are gonna talk about thebook.
I don't want to go so deep intothe book Sure.
Because I don't wanna ruinanything Yeah.
For, our readers.
And part of it is just thediscovery, but,, I had some just
general questions for you.
Of course.
Were you always a reader whenyou were, when you were young?
(04:26):
Were you a big reader and whatwere your go-tos?
V.E. Schwab (04:29):
I wasn't, I was an athlete.
And like I was never a bigreader.
I could read, but I was likethat kid precocious 10-year-old
who was like, I can put my eyeson every word.
It's the same thing as reading.
Um, it, but I wasn't the librarykid.
I wasn't a bookish kid.
I never sat still.
I have a very restlesstemperament and it wasn't until
I found a book when I was 11, 12and for very first time had the.
(04:53):
You know, quintessentialexperience of forgetting that I
was reading, right?
The same way you go to see amovie and you forget the edges
of the screen and your, youknow, your, your mind plays a
trick on you.
The same thing happens whenyou're reading and the story
starts playing a film in yourmind and you stop seeing ink on
paper.
And it really wasn't until I hadthat experience that I realized,
(05:14):
oh, this is.
My experience wasn't, oh, Iwanna just feel that way all the
time.
It was, oh no, I.
Like, I wanna make movies playin their head.
I wanna be able to control thehallucination.
Brett Benner (05:27):
And do you remember what one of those books
was that did that to you?
V.E. Schwab (05:30):
Of course I do.
I mean this is the, this is theMessiness of Life, Brett.
It was, it was Harry Potter.
And like I have a veryconflicted relationship with it.
Of course.
'cause of Rolling, not becauseof Harry Potter.
Um, it hard, especially as.
As a member of the queercommunity, it's very hard, so.
(05:51):
Difficult and problematic.
Um, but yeah, it was like thefirst time that I felt like I
was somewhere else and I wassomeone else.
And it's like I don't wannarevise my own history because of
her.
Like it's still so important tome.
It's so important to who I was.
(06:11):
It can't be important to whoI'm,
Brett Benner (06:13):
that makes sense.
Sure.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
You don't deny it, but, but itit is, it's a part.
V.E. Schwab (06:21):
Yeah.
It's like, I mean, and I, I, Istruggle, especially as a writer
now, I really don't like toseparate artists from art.
I know some people are reallygood at it.
I simply can't.
I'm too aware of the art outsidethe frame, so to speak.
So I have a really hard time.
It's my personal choice to notseparate artists from art.
Um, simply because as somebodywho works in the arts, I, I, I,
(06:45):
I need, I like to have thecontext.
I, you know, certain creators,they're knowing more about them
makes me respect the work even.
Um, the unfortunate side of thatis knowing them.
Not get to have that escapistfeeling that I had when I was
11, 12.
Right.
I don't get to have the samepurity of experience.
Brett Benner (07:06):
Absolutely.
Did you read Monster?
No Claire Dederer.
It's, it's the whole idea.
This is the whole thing about,you know, separating the art
from the artist know, oh wait,is the nonfiction?
V.E. Schwab (07:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is about, this is aboutlike cult of personality and art
versus artists.
Yes, yes.
It's
Brett Benner (07:23):
Picasso and Michael Jackson and all of it.
And it falls right into all ofthis, what you're talking about.
But it is, and I think what'shard about who you're talking
about is.
It just continues to becomedoubling down and it's so active
that that's that what makes it,that's the thing.
Like it's
V.E. Schwab (07:37):
not like, oh, somebody messed up 10 years ago
and like, you know, they saidsomething questionable.
It's just like the deniabilityis gone.
Right.
Your, your, your, that's right.
Window of plausible deniabilityhas expired by now.
Um, yes, and it's hard becauseI've very famously spoken about,
famously I, why I use that word.
(07:59):
Declared my kind of likecreative lineage in, in a, in a
lecture series that I did forOxford back in 2018.
And you understand, like I hadtwo heroes growing up.
I had the one that made me areader and I had the one that
made me a writer and the onethat made me a reader was
rolling.
And the one that made me awriter was Gaimen and mm-hmm.
Over the last decade toessentially have to like, you
(08:23):
know, bury your heroes.
Um.
Uh, and it's really challengingas a creator who can like,
pinpoint so many of the vitalmoments of my own, like, sense
of self within publishing andwithin creativity.
Like my favorite memories, mymost important moments.
And like there's a, there's likea corrupted hard drive element,
(08:46):
right?
There's a sense of like, yeah.
Oh, I, I remember going througheach.
Each one.
'cause I didn't wanna be able tojust like do the thing my brain
would do, which was to reflectback on like the moment I felt
this way because a hero saw me.
You know?
Yeah.
And it's hard not to like startthis conversation on a complete
(09:06):
counter, but it's formative andit's so hard to have heroes.
Um, I remember having a verydark conversation with a friend.
Who, like her hero was a famousfilmmaker that very recently
died.
And I, I have a very dark senseof humor, I should say to
anybody listening, thankfully.
So does she.
And I said, well, like, at leasthe died before he disappointed
(09:29):
you.
And that meant like he, but it'strue.
Like, you know, people who haveTolkien tattoos, I'm like,
you're probably safe at thispoint.
Like, I think you're gonna belike, you know, there's, you
know, I, sorry.
Deathly hallow, like, I.
It's, you know, there's a senseof like preservation.
And so part of me wants topreserve the impact that those
(09:51):
books had on me because they'resuch a part of, like, I don't
think I become a writer withoutthem as my, as my lineage.
There, there, there was such aprofound impact at such a
profound moment.
And then at the same time you'relike just, just deep pedestal.
Each thing and realizing thatlike my, my agent says a thing,
which is just because somethinghas served you in the past
(10:11):
doesn't mean.
Brett Benner (10:13):
Meanwhile, I'm still stuck on the idea that
there's a whole subdivision ofpeople like on on a Reddit right
now talking about what tattoothey have from Tolkien.
V.E. Schwab (10:22):
Oh.
I mean, you know, like I didthat, this is why I had never
get bookish tattoos.
I just, I ha I don't get any arttattoos because I have just a
distrust of the effects of time.
Brett Benner (10:31):
Right, right, right.
So you always seem to have like.
You know, you have so manydifferent things firing at the
same time in your brain.
Yeah.
And probably on the page or inyour computer.
Do you consider yourself ahighly disciplined writer?
V.E. Schwab (10:42):
Ooh, that's an interesting question.
I think I am a compulsivecreative.
Oh, I am a relentlessly creativeperson.
I wish I had more discipline inspecific ways.
I'm very disciplined in that.
Like I pretty much work everyday.
I don't really take a vacationfor myself.
I can't even if I wanted to, ifI'm conscious and sober, I'm
(11:04):
working.
Um, it's just like I.
Brett Benner (11:08):
Do you have a set time that you write or is it
just I start in the
V.E. Schwab (11:10):
morning because if I don't start in the morning, I
can't do it in the afternoon.
I just, the later in the day itgets without me making some kind
of progress.
No progress looks differentlydepending on what stage of a
project I'm in.
We were just talking aboutbefore we started here that I'm
basically less than two weeksout from a book release time.
It's not on my side here.
Focus is not on my side.
But I also don't wanna waste thetwo weeks of waste being a word
(11:33):
that goes on in my head all thetime around quotation, right,
waste.
What does waste look like?
It could be called rest, but forme, I'd say I don't wanna waste.
And so I'm essentiallycompulsively outlining.
I'm making notes.
I essentially sit down for twohours every morning and I just
like freethink.
Ideas about, of something I'mworking on.
So it's not just free writing,but it's like, you know, okay,
(11:56):
well what's happening?
Where did I leave thischaracter?
What, what could, what couldhappen here?
And essentially just for twohours straight in this kind of
phase that I'm in, well justtake notes.
Just in conversation with myselfon paper, trying to sort things
out.
And so, so I think it looks likediscipline.
I think it feels likediscipline.
At the same time, I had to lookthrough 17 separate word
(12:17):
documents to compile these notesbecause I had scattered them to
the wind.
So I think that might just be aDHD, not a lack of discipline.
Um, like I was making somethingfor dinner last night and I
realized I needed dill and Ifound a jar of Dills.
So I think there's, like, mybrain says that's a lack of
discipline, but I think it'sjust a lack of like, um, boots
(12:38):
on the ground, two feet inreality at all times.
Focus.
Brett Benner (12:43):
I feel like I'm my soulmate right now.
I
V.E. Schwab (12:44):
am, I am very disciplined in that, you know, I
know the next six books that I'mwriting and I will make notes
kind of compulsively on them,depending.
Things on deck, so I don't havea lot of lost time.
I would say maybe that lookslike discipline.
Brett Benner (13:03):
Sure.
But then how do you.
You wake up on Monday and say,oh, you know what, number five
is calling to me?
V.E. Schwab (13:09):
Yes.
I gotta go
Brett Benner (13:10):
with that today.
V.E. Schwab (13:10):
Oh no, I didn do that.
Is that really how it No, no,no, no, no, no.
Okay.
I mean, like those five are inan order as well, and I have a
pretty good sense of the orderare gonna happen.
Like you're
Brett Benner (13:19):
saying.
Dug out.
V.E. Schwab (13:20):
Yeah.
Very bad.
Or up for?
For right now, I'm letting it bea little bit more haphazard
because like kind things.
So as I'm ideating and kind ofdropping notes in, I have a very
long ideating process.
Uh, so basically before Iactually write a novel, I'll
spend at least a year planningthe novel.
(13:41):
I'll outline build character,build set pieces, and
essentially arrange the notecards, the storyboard for the
entire book in a narrativeorder, and then break it out
into a chronological order foreach perspective.
And then, wow.
When I have all thosecomponents, then I will know
that, okay, for the next sixmonths of my life, that's what
(14:03):
I'm writing.
Brett Benner (14:04):
It's weird'cause it's almost in some ways, and I
get it, like especially I get itwith this, it's almost like
you're writing individual shortstories and then bringing'em all
together into one greater piece.
I mean,
V.E. Schwab (14:11):
I think that's how I cheat my brain into not
quitting.
Because the fact is like thething I'm looking at today is
books five and six.
Of the shades of magic slashthreads of power series, like
shades of magics, 1, 2, 3threads of power is 4, 5, 6.
Um, it is daunting with acapital D, daunting to say the
least.
And so if I were to sit down andthink today, I'm working on book
(14:33):
five.
What a horrifying concept.
Like I shriveled as I thinkabout that, it's too big, it's
too much, it's too scary.
And so what I will do isessentially spend a lot of time
breaking the idea of a book downinto a series of escalating
episodes, the way like a 10 setepisode of television.
So I really try to look, alsohelps me get away from the
concept of a saggy middle.
(14:55):
And so what I'll essentially tryto do is instead of looking at
it as a three act structure,I'll look at it loosely as 10
episodes.
Wow.
And then I have 10 individualkind of miniature arcs of
activity, 10 set pieces.
And then in each set piece Ikind of break it down into
scenes so that when I sit downto write, instead of facing down
a book or even a section of thebook, I'm facing down like 10
(15:18):
feet in front of me.
Brett Benner (15:19):
That makes so much sense.
That makes so much sense.
And I'm picturing like a massivewhiteboard in front of you with
dry erase markers.
Wouldn't
V.E. Schwab (15:25):
that be great?
Because where that whiteboardexists, like a writer's room is
in my head.
Yeah, like that's the worst partis like the vast majority of the
whiteboard is not in a physicalspace, which, which plagues
every person in my life with somuch fear.
It is like I am like oneaneurysm away from it.
Nobody gets anything, right?
(15:46):
Uh, nobody gets anything.
Um, I like to say I leave it enccoded so that nobody can harper
leave me.
Like if I finish.
I don't wanna get canceled onthe internet for turning Harper
Lee into a verb in this context.
So I'm sorry everybody forgetthat it's 13 days before release
and I have no filter.
Um, oh my God.
Yeah.
So, but it is logic.
(16:06):
It's logical to a fault.
And I think a lot of peoplethink that takes the excitement
or like the creativity out, butthe truth is that year of
brainstorming is my,
Brett Benner (16:16):
wow.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
So you have, uh, listen, you,you have this arguably a rabid
fan base, right?
And you have people I hope so.
That have followed you.
Yeah.
You really do.
You have, and you have a reallylarge, uh, group that has
followed you, you from, fromyour start.
Yeah.
And you're also, and I thinkthat that is exponentially
(16:38):
really kind of exploded evenmore after Addie LaRue.
You are also really present onsocial media.
You're very generous to yourfollowers.
Yeah.
You are there, you are givingstuff.
How do you find the balance?
Mm-hmm.
And also, how do you learn tostick to your own vision and not
be influenced by mm-hmm.
These voices outside saying,what about this?
(17:00):
What about this?
Can we have this?
How do you do that?
V.E. Schwab (17:03):
I mean, I'm stubborn.
I also think it's important toremember that I started really
young, and so one of the reasonsthat I'm persistently accessible
online, even though I'm at apoint in my career, would
probably would be better for mymental health to be less
accessible online.
But the whole thing was that Istarted when I was 19.
That's when I signed with myfirst agent and, um, sold my
(17:26):
first book at 21.
And the thing that I noticed atthe time, earlier days of social
media, obviously, but the thingthat I noticed is just there was
no transparency.
Like you, you were felt solonely.
The only time authors everposted was to share good news.
They never posted about thecreative difficulties.
Really?
Because it was seen as like,gosh, right?
It was seen as like, don't doit.
And I just felt like this isdesigned to isolate each and
(17:49):
every one of us.
This is designed for like, itfeels tailor made for neuroses
and for insecurity, and thenwhen something goes wrong in
publishing, you think you're theonly person it's ever happened
to myself.
Was, I'm just gonna be as honestas I can in, in the hopes that
like, if anyone else isstruggling in the same way,
(18:11):
it'll feel less lonely.
And so what that means 15 yearsin is like, I still am just
doing that in the hopes that ifa, a writer who's just starting
or a writer who's not juststarting but struggling, can see
me struggling 25 books in.
It's the same thing.
Like it can feel it's, it canfeel really heartening to know.
Like, I wish I could say that itgets easier.
(18:32):
It doesn't get easier, but youcan at least know that like it's
the same struggle and it's not,um, it can feel like an
indictment, like when you arestruggling creatively and you
don't see other peoplestruggling creatively.
It can feel like an indictmenton your own creative ability
instead of just.
Like, being vulnerable in art ishard.
Making good art is hard.
(18:52):
Improving is hard.
And so I think like I'maccessible because I've really,
really believe in that.
It has gotten harder because Iknow that the, the larger the
audience and like I'm no longeran underdog.
I was an underdog for like 12years in publishing.
Right.
And I'm very aware of the factthat like I no longer an
(19:14):
underdog, an underdog.
Is still there.
Like I always feel slightlyanti-establishment.
Um, and I always feel just likereally self-aware of the
vulnerability and the volatilityof the establishment.
And so I kind of am just likeover at my desk focusing on
getting the work done.
(19:34):
And so I feel really comfortablebeing super transparent about
that because I want anyone elsewho's getting the work done to
know that like they havecommunity by virtue of the fact
that they've showed up and that.
Brett Benner (19:46):
That's great.
Alright, so for our listeners,for our viewers mm-hmm.
Do you have, uh, an elevatorpitch for Bury our bones?
V.E. Schwab (19:56):
I mean the, the three word headline rate is
Toxic Lesbian Vampires.
Um, it's, it's the story ofthree women over the course of
500 years and how their livesdeaths and.
It's the story of falling out oflove.
It's the story of collateraldamage.
Uh, and it's the story of a onenight stand gone horribly,
(20:17):
horribly wrong.
Uh, yeah, I just, it's a bookabout, um, the idea of vampirism
as a motif for autonomy, anagency, and especially about
like agency within the contextof queer history.
It's also about being messy.
It's about hunger.
I guess if I was, I was supposedto pitch this right?
(20:37):
I'm so bad at pitching.
It's just about hunger.
It's about hunger in every formit takes specifically for women
and fem presenting people.
Um, it is about the hunger to beseen, to be loved, to be
understood, and up space in theworld to make.
It's like, have 17, you're fine.
Elevator pitches tack together.
(20:58):
You're pretending to be anexplanation.
No, I always say
Brett Benner (21:00):
this, this building could be as long as you
need to be.
Um, it it, it's so funnybecause, um, when I was putting
stuff together last night, I didthink for me this is like a
merging of, and we will talkabout the and Rice connection in
a second, but interview with thevampire with.
The Hunger, literally the movie,the Hunger.
Oh, yes.
V.E. Schwab (21:20):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (21:20):
And I, and I have to say, like for everybody who's
listening or watching, if you'venever seen The Hunger, you
definitely should just for theshits and giggles of it.
But also if you don't even watchthe movie.
The trailer itself Yeah.
Is so genius.
Yeah.
'cause everything they weredoing in the eighties with the
voiceover and the like, she wasmeant for something more, you
(21:42):
know?
All of it.
Yeah.
With like beautiful CatherineDeo and David Bowie looking
amazing.
And Susan Ette and Oh, it'sphenomenal.
Sexy.
And it's so great.
It's phenomenal.
So great.
But that's what I, it's so bad.
Well, and this is very much
V.E. Schwab (21:53):
like, so I always joke that it's the interview
with the Vampire Meets KillingEve.
It's like really just about likeantagonistic.
Women, it is like, it's muchmore, people are always like,
oh, like twilight.
I'm like, it's much more a loveletter to interview with a
vampire and only lovers leftalive and a girl walks home
alone at night.
Like it's, it's, there's a lotthat it's in conversation with.
It's not really in conversationwith a lot of the modern.
(22:15):
Contemporary vampire culture?
No.
Um, because I'm reallyinterested in the like inherent
queerness of the originalvampire cannons on the original
VAM empirical works.
I just wrote, um, I can'tremember if it was called a
forward or an introduction.
I should really be better aboutthis, but I just wrote a piece
to go at the beginning ofCarmela.
A new edition of Carmela and,and the Vampire a combo.
(22:38):
So I just reread them and like,it's just so interesting.
I expect, it was the first timeI actually read Carmela and I
was really expecting to be blownaway by how steamy and lesbian
it was.
And I was like, oh, it's notlike it's still written by, so
written by a dude.
It's still, um, like it's stillabout the concept.
(22:59):
Um, like how dangerous theforbidden fruit of a knowledge
is, how dangerous the allure ofanother life.
And so that's really what I wasreally interested in looking at
that in the context of queerhistory and the idea that like
young queer people often requirea mentor of sorts, especially in
(23:20):
past historical periods, to comeinto their life and tempt them
and say, did you know thatthere's another way.
To live and that's wonderful andthat's enabling.
But I was like, okay, but whatif that person who came into
your life because there's anintoxication to being seen and
perceived as yourself for thefirst time, what if that person
was also super bad for you?
(23:40):
Because like we get into thesetoxic relationships, especially
early on in our own queerjourneys, more often than not
because we we're so.
Infatuated with the idea ofbeing authentically perceived,
that we perhaps don't alwayswonder if the person perceiving
us is the best for us.
So, sure.
I was interested in that elementof, of carmilla and also just
(24:03):
like general history.
And then the thing I love aboutyour view of the vampires, how
messy they're.
Like they're such messy gays.
They're such messy, messy queermen.
And it also, especially thetelevision adaptation, which
took a lot of the subtext fromthe film and made it text,
really explored domesticviolence within the queer
(24:25):
community in a way that I hungerfor, because I hunger for, not
that I hunger for domesticviolence, I hunger for.
Removing queer characters frompedestals and letting them be as
messy as their straightcounterparts, you know?
Right.
Because when we have to exist onpedestal, it suggests, one that
we don't have that level ofcomplexity, which is false, and
two, that we're not allowed tohave that narrative complexity.
(24:47):
And so I was really excited tosee that on screen because I was
like, oh, okay, like we'reready.
We're gonna like, we're gonnaexplore what it means to be in
some real toxic relationships.
I also wanted to play with theidea of the collateral damage
left in a an epic love storieswake, especially when it's
(25:10):
between monsters.
Like you have Louie and Lestatwho have varying levels of
complicity, of course, but theyare leaving so many dead bodies
and so many people in theirwake.
And you look back at like theMarvel era when they finally
figured out that they shouldlike address the fact that
Marvel superheroes weredestroying cities.
And that like people's liveswere being hurt and.
That they are biting or murderlike they had lives,
Brett Benner (25:35):
the lives ruined in their wakes, the families
that have been left behind.
This
V.E. Schwab (25:38):
is the thing I was like, this is truly a story
about the collateral damage ofsomebody else's epic love.
Brett Benner (25:43):
So here's my question for you then.
Yeah.
The genesis of all this, andwhen this came up, was it
literally like, I wanna write abook that has about vampires.
Or what was that initial sparkfor you that said, Hey, I wanna
do this.
And also leaning into thequeerness of it all.
Did you say, look, I wanna dosomething that really plays in
the queer space in a way that Ihaven't done before?
V.E. Schwab (26:01):
Yeah, I think there was.
Brett Benner (26:04):
And why?
And, and why?
I
V.E. Schwab (26:05):
think there were several factors.
It was right in the wake of AbbyLaRue, which is a story about in
an immortality deal.
And even though Abby LaRue is astory about an immortality deal
with the devil, essentiallyimmortality deals follow a form.
And vampiric immortality dealsare exactly the same.
It's a transactional thing inwhich something is lost, in
something is gained.
And so I, I wanted to writeanother immortality deal.
(26:26):
I didn't want it to be anotherdeal with the devil.
So there was that, that planthat was planted in my mind.
Could I write a different kindof immortality deal?
I wanted to have like a triptychof immortal stories, right?
As I'm also just reallyfascinated by what we do with
time, like the liberty that timeand immortality gives us,
especially what I started toexplore is like the freedom from
(26:49):
fear, like moving through theworld in a femme presenting body
is inherently a violent act.
It invites violence, it incitesviolence, it you are
automatically perceived as.
And I started thinking about thefact that like one of the
greatest forms of liberationwould is the moment that you go
from being perceived as prey tounderstanding yourself as a
(27:09):
predator.
This is a wish fulfillment for,for a young woman, right?
Like to, to be able to movethrough the world as Alice does
shortly into this book, whereinshe realizes for the first time
she not have to be afraid ofmen, that men should be afraid
of her.
Like what a novelty.
So I the radicalization of likeyoung women just being like,
what if I didn't have to beafraid All.
(27:29):
Um, it was something I wanted toexplore.
I've always loved vampires.
I love the inherent queerness.
And to answer your other part ofthat question, I spent about 14
of the 15 years in publishingtrying to assimilate in
different ways.
You know, I came in, um, as afemme presenting person into the
fantasy space, and I tried todownplay the fact I was a woman.
(27:49):
And then I came out and I triedto downplay the fact that I was
gay.
And I kept trying and trying andtrying.
To make mainstream publishingand mainstream readership Okay.
With me.
Right.
And when I say mainstreamreadership mm-hmm.
I mean the people who arereading straight white men.
And I realized at some pointaround Addie that it was never
gonna work.
That all I was doing wasessentially marginalizing myself
(28:13):
in my own stories.
And so, in the wake of thesuccess of Addie LaRue.
I had this moment with myselfwhere I said like, if you cannot
translate the success of thatnovel into the freedom to write
something without that desirefor assimilation, if you can, if
you have to just translate itinto the desire to write boldly.
Like if you weren't afraid, ifyou weren't trying to
(28:35):
assimilate, if you weren'ttrying to like not rock the
boat, I realized like the wakeof Addie was the time to do it.
So essentially I went to tourand I was like, you have been so
supportive.
You have supported everythingI've ever done, and I've just
made you a ton of money and nowyou're going to support me in
what I write next.
(28:55):
And credit to tour, they neverblinked.
I, I, I was like, I'm gonnawrite toxic lesbian vampires.
And they never were like, couldyou think of writing something
that might be easier for us tosell?
They were on my side from go.
They were like, we trust you, weare excited.
And then that excitement neverstopped.
(29:18):
And so I felt like I had thisincredible freedom and this
incredible privilege to writesomething knowing that the
publisher would support it.
Support it in a large way, andso that took a boldness.
I already felt a fatigue withthe industry.
I already felt and allowed methe full creative freedom to
write this book exactly as Iwanted to.
Brett Benner (29:38):
That's amazing.
I also find it pretty incrediblethat this book, which really is
about female empowerment, ledyou and empowered you to do
everything you wanted to do andget effectively everything you
wanted to get.
V.E. Schwab (29:53):
Oh, it's almost like the book, it was a
conversation with this work.
Like writing this book helped meso much in my own queerness
because for so long, like peoplestill didn't perceive me as gay.
Like nobody, everyone like, andmy books never made Queer list,
despite the fact that casts werequeer.
Everyone just like I just alwaysseemed to be straight passing.
And it it, because of that, Inever felt like I actually
(30:16):
belonged at all.
And the writing of this bookhelped me take up space, which
is so funny because it's like abook about taking up space.
But I have such a specialrelationship with this novel now
because it has allowed me tospeak boldly and
unapologetically andarticulately about something
that for 15 years I felt like Ishould.
(30:39):
In the interest of success, inthe interest of mainstream
appeal and um, and like I'msuper grateful.
I'm grateful to the publisherbecause they gave me that whole
support, like with their wholechest going in.
And I know that's something thatso few books get, but I'm just
really grateful that then.
What resulted from it is likethere's always a chasm between
(30:59):
the thing in your mind, and thisis published.
Of everything I've ever written.
It is the narrowest gap betweenthe thing in my mind and the
thing on paper.
Like it's truly, it's soimperfect, Brett.
It's so flawed, but it doesexactly what I want it to do on
every single page.
Brett Benner (31:20):
I love that so much.
What's funny to me too,'causegoing back to the whole Vampiric
thing about it, there is thismaneuverability in there because
of the sexuality, because Iremember like.
I, I read Interview with theVampire because Sting wrote a
song about it.
Right?
Yeah.
And so, and I, I remember, and Iwas obsessed with Sting and so
like he would say Jump.
I would be like, how high?
Yeah.
And so I remember getting thatbook in a tiny little paperback
(31:43):
and.
I was falling so in love withthese characters and, and, and
seeing these things that withoutanything explicit, actually
existing Yeah.
Breaking down all walls of kindof gender and sexuality Exactly.
And everything.
And she was redefining thiswhole thing.
And I'm like, and it was thefirst time too, that someone
would say, oh, it's fantasysci-fi.
(32:04):
But it was never, it was.
Always considered literature,right?
Yes.
Interview with vampire and thatwhole cannon became something
else.
And that's what so reminded mewhen you say homage to Anne
Rice.
Yeah.
You have done such a beautifulthing with this.
V.E. Schwab (32:16):
Aw, thank you.
Not only,
Brett Benner (32:18):
not only your movement through time, which is
so, and, and if I have anycomplaint with the book, it's
only that I wanted to live inthese spaces longer with each
character.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like I was like, this is 10volumes right here.
This is like worlds that exist.
Yeah.
Which I hope you're gonna say, Iwas, was gonna Oh, it'll
continue.
Yeah.
A
V.E. Schwab (32:37):
movie.
Who knows.
You know who, who, yes.
Who, who can say I, who can say,what I'll say is that, so Addie
and Bones are meant to be of thesame kind of like set, and it is
what I'm calling the garden inmy mind, which is essentially,
to your point, I really wantedto write urban fantasy of the
literary aesthetic.
Yes.
And I feel like what Ann Ricedid was this deeply romantic.
(33:00):
Literary urban fantasy.
Yeah.
And for so long I feel like Ihaven't felt that.
And so I was like, the, the mainrole for me as a writer is like,
write what you wanna read.
And I was like, I wanna readliterary fantasy.
Uh, like I wanna, and the thingis, I saw that with Addie.
Addie got shelved in generalfiction.
It was the first book of minethat got shelved in general
(33:20):
fiction.
And it's constantly being br bypeople who will tell me in their
next breath, first breath, Ilove this book.
Second, I don't.
That is fantasy.
And they're like, no, but it'snot really fantasy.
And I'm like, what do you thinkfantasy is?
And they're like, well, itdoesn't have magic and dragons
and all.
And I'm like, fantasy is anydeparture from reality.
And specifically, I wanna writeliterary like grounded fantasy,
(33:44):
which feels like it's happeningin our world.
In time like that, it's just,it's a, it's an art of noticing
problem then, right?
It's not that you can onlyaccess the world that I'm
writing about through the pagesof this book, like with Tolkien,
like I'm telling you that likeyou might have passed Addie
LaRue on the street, and I'mtelling you that you might have
been in a coffee shop that hadsongs playing that you couldn't
hear.
(34:04):
I'm telling you to like payattention to the way that the
inexplicable or thees.
History is born out of it is inconversation with it.
Like I, I wanted to writesomething that made me feel the
way the vampire lestat made mefeel when I read it for the
first time.
And so it, that's what I mean bya love letter.
(34:25):
It's a, it's a conversation withcertain dynamics and things I
didn't feel like I saw in booksfrom that time.
But it's also just a love letterto the, like the warm bath.
Of what fantasy can feel like.
Brett Benner (34:39):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I mean, there's something Isaid like Sabine, who is one of
the three women in the novel,
V.E. Schwab (34:45):
it's my favorite.
She
Brett Benner (34:46):
to me is I was gonna ask you who your favorite
was.
That's my favorite.
But Sabine to me is a littlelike, if.
If the Claudia in the interviewwith the Empire novel had given,
been given time to grow up, Iknow right before she had been
turned.
Yeah.
What she could have become.
Yeah.
And uh, yeah, there's three suchdistinct characters.
One starts in 1532, Spain.
(35:07):
One starts in 18 37, 18 37, andone in 1991.
Harvard.
Well, and there's, sorry.
There's one
V.E. Schwab (35:13):
other thing I want.
There's only one other way inwhich I wanna be playing with.
Ann Rice and that's that.
If you look at so much of thebook and now what's happening in
the television show,'cause Ijust feel like the television
show is such a beautiful, um,work is the concept of
perceptual reality.
And what I mean by that is fornine tenths of the TV show, you
(35:33):
meet one version of Lestat andit's a fictional version that is
living in memory and then in thelast episode currently that we
have, you meet OTT as heactually.
Is in real time.
And then the difference betweenhow we remember people and how
they actually are, and theconcept that now in the next
(35:55):
season we're gonna see adifferent version of Lestat
again that is perceived as heperceives himself.
And like I am so interested inthat.
And so this book is written inthree perspectives.
And the only thing that I wouldsay to readers before it is
think about who's telling thestory.
Can I learn this?
Coming back from fantasy where Iwas like, I would, I would write
(36:16):
a character in one book and Iwould tell the reader almost
nothing about them.
So the reader could make a snapjudgment.
And then over the next book ortwo, I would pick apart the
reader's judgment by telling youmore context about why they were
the way they were.
And it becomes much harder tohate someone when you get to
know them.
Brett Benner (36:31):
Sure, sure.
Oh my God.
I love that.
Yes.
They did have to ask you ifsomeone offered you the chance
to become an empire, would youtake it
V.E. Schwab (36:38):
a hundred percent?
In a second, I would've doneAddie la Ru's deal.
And that's the worst deal.
So like, yeah.
Happily.
Happily.
I live in fear of running out oftime.
It's a theme in all of my books.
I would do it a second.
Would you do it?
Brett Benner (36:51):
I would do it if I could.
I wouldn't do it now.
I would do it if I could back uplike 15 years.
Yeah.
Um, because I want to be, one ofthe things that time does is
make you look back and rememberlike, like, this is such a weird
thing and I'll probably lose,um, I.
Listeners because of this.
But I was jokingly saying to mykids one day, when you're older,
take naked pictures of yourselfbefore you're too old.
(37:12):
Yeah.
Because you, you'll never feelbeautiful, but you're always
gonna look back and be like,God, I was beautiful.
And that's what I always feellike.
I look back now and think you'reso insecure and your body
dysmorphia and all the otherthings.
Yeah.
And so now I would say.
Oh, I would, I would do it if Icould go back.
I want that experience of like,in the book about talking about
reading and how many books thereare and how many things to
experience.
(37:33):
I know Charlotte's like, or justlearning a language.
Yes.
V.E. Schwab (37:36):
Yeah.
The, the, the novelty of time.
Like I often say that if I couldhave a superpower, it would just
be a pause button.
I just wanna be able to likestop for a second and catch my
breath and like have a year tojust read and have no time.
Like I just, that's my thing isI, I think I don't, I think I
could live five to sixlifetimes.
Would I want to live for 50 ofthem?
(37:57):
No.
But it's also the reason I don'tbuy the concept of immortal on
we, which is another thing that,like, I don't get it.
The concept of Immortals beinglike, I'm so fatigue.
I don't wanna do this anymore.
I'm like, there's.
Like walk into the sun.
You can like, that's right.
Yourself.
Pay someone else to stake you.
You, you obviously wanna behere.
Yes.
You obviously are still here.
Brett Benner (38:19):
So, yeah.
Because there's always thepromise of what else and what's
next and who else, and who next.
That's exactly to me.
Exactly.
That's the discovery of whatelse could be out there.
What corner of the world haven'tI overturned yet?
Overturned rock.
V.E. Schwab (38:32):
Although, God, I think I just have such a.
Fascinating.
I mean like having just seensinners for like the fourth
time.
I'm also so fascinated by theconcept of how race plays into
that though, because obviouslylike yes, speaking as two white
people and like at the end ofthat movie someone is asked
like, would you like to be madeof empire so you can keep going?
And this man is like, you knowwhat?
I think I've seen.
I'm like, he's like, I think, Ithink, think I'm done and I
(38:54):
think I'm done.
Brett Benner (38:55):
But, but my God, props to singers.
I can't.
And props the musical signalone.
Can't I, can't I So next levelbeyond brilliant.
V.E. Schwab (39:04):
There's a surrealist moment in there that
like where the, the barn isburning down perceptually from
the outside.
And I, I just, this is the kindof art, like I walked outta that
film and I was, nothing in thisworld makes me more excited than
art that makes me wanna makeart.
And it's so rare.
And when I feel it, sometimesit's a song, sometimes it's a
movie, sometimes it's a book.
But if I walk outta someplaceand I just think I wanna go get
(39:25):
a pen and paper and like feelthe way that movie made me feel,
I, I'll be happy for a year.
Brett Benner (39:31):
It's incredible.
He's a genius.
Yeah.
Like the whole thing, the castacross the board so amazing.
But weirdly,
V.E. Schwab (39:36):
it's what makes me like, that's the best praise I i
I ever shoot for as an author,is I wanna write books that make
other writers wanna write books.
If that makes sense.
Like I wanna have thattransition of creative energy,
like where it's almost just averb.
Like, I just wanna writesomething that makes somebody
else wanna write something.
Brett Benner (39:56):
Well, this certainly, I mean, to, to say
like, I, is it, is it a bad dadjoke or too punty to say it's,
it's delicious and you shouldsink your, oh no, I've
V.E. Schwab (40:04):
made so many.
I'm like, do you want a firstbite?
Like you can go get a taste ofit online.
I hope it sinks its teeth intoyou.
I'm so glad it got under yourskin.
Like I've got.
Brett Benner (40:16):
You do.
I also have to say it, just on aside note, I love, what I love
about any vampire novel or anyvampire movie, whatever is the
mythology that the creatorcreates.
Right.
And the rules.
Yeah.
And I, I'm not giving anythingaway in this, but I love what
you do that's similar and whatyou do that's different, the
erosion.
I think it's great and
V.E. Schwab (40:35):
I just think I want, I want all of my fantasy
to come down to humanpsychology.
And I think, like, so for me, I,I also have to come from a place
of logic and I'm like, whyaren't there more vampires?
Like why aren't, why aren't weoverrun?
And I'm like, okay, well theremust be a self-destructive
element.
Well, how do we get aself-destructive element?
Well, what if over time theydecay morally and existentially
and they just become essentiallyanimalistic predators?
(40:57):
But that could happen in 10years, it could happen in a
hundred years, it could happenin 500 years, depending on your
attachment.
To humanity and I just, I likethe idea that like they end up
essentially getting in their ownway.
Brett Benner (41:09):
Yeah.
It's kind of like our democracyright now in America.
V.E. Schwab (41:12):
I was gonna say, it's like an addict chasing a
high, but it is also like ademocracy,
Brett Benner (41:17):
power, all of it.
Power, corruption, all of it.
And you know, and the thirst formore.
V.E. Schwab (41:22):
Exactly.
Brett Benner (41:22):
Well, this has been just a delight.
You are, you are absolutelydelightful.
Um, thank you Claire, as you, asyou know you are.
Um, but um, please everybody goout and buy the book.
Yes.
Please.
Read.
V.E. Schwab (41:36):
Oh, I've we're.
Look at how pretty and show it.
Show, show it.
The show the finished one isshow.
Look at all this.
Gorgeous.
Oh my God, it's gorgeous,gorgeous.
It's so, it's gorgeous.
Brett Benner (41:44):
And by the way, um, buy the damn book because
she signed so many of the damnthings signed.
300,000.
So
V.E. Schwab (41:51):
just put me on an infomercial at this point.
She,
Brett Benner (41:53):
she developed carpal tunnel and she literally,
that's not even a real hand shehas anymore.
No, that's gorgeous.
Look at that inside,
V.E. Schwab (42:00):
you know, we try.
Yeah.
It's
Brett Benner (42:01):
a beautiful, it's stunning.
It's so, um, thank you.
You will be lost in this thing,but I'm really excited for you
and for all.
I think it's, I think it's sofantastic.
So
V.E. Schwab (42:11):
thank you so much, hun.
Brett Benner (42:13):
Thanks again V for joining me today and.
If you've liked thisconversation or other
conversations that you've heardon this podcast, please consider
liking and subscribing at yourpodcast platform of choice.
And another thing that would bereally helpful is if you could
give me a review of Five Starswould be amazing and really
helps other people find thepodcast.
(42:34):
And I will be back later thisweek.
With Rob Franklin discussing hisbook, great Black Hope.
Until then, see everybody.
Hey everybody.
It's Brett Benner, and welcomeor welcome back to another
episode of Behind the Stack Aswe continue double feature June
this week with V Schwab for hernew book, Bury our Bones and The
Midnight Soil.
But before we get to that, therewere a couple more books that
are coming out in this massiverelease day that I just wanted
to mention.
The first is Days of Light.
(00:20):
By Meghan Hunter, a sweeping,sensual, historical novel about
one woman's unconventional life.
Lived in search of an answer bythe award-winning author of the
End.
We start from and the harpy,then death at the White heart.
By Chris Chibnall.
This is a fantastic book forfans of the TV show, broad
(00:41):
Church, and also because ChrisChibnall, who wrote it, is the
creator of Broad Church.
He will be on the podcast nextweek, but this involves a murder
in a small town and who could bethe killer also out today.
Great Black Hope by RobFranklin.
This is a terrific debut.
(01:03):
Rob will be on the podcast laterthis week.
A gripping, elegant debut novelabout a young black man caught
between worlds of race andclass, glamor and tragedy, a
friend's mysterious death, andhis own arrest from an
electrifying new voice.
So look for that interview laterthis week.
Also.
One of my personal favorites,king of Ashes by SA Cosby.
(01:27):
I love his writing.
This is kind of being dubbed hisversion of The Godfather, so
look for that on the nonfictionfront.
This sounds so interesting tome.
Murder Land by Carolyn Frazier.
From the Pulitzer Prizewinning,author of Prairie Fires, comes a
terrifying true crime history ofserial killers in the Pacific
(01:48):
Northwest and beyond.
A gripping investigation of howa new strain of psychopath
emerged out of a toxic landscapeof deadly industrial violence.
So that is out today as well asfantastic author Jess Walters,
his new book So Far Gone.
Jess will be on the podcast nextweek talking about this book,
(02:09):
Which is about a reclusivejournalist who's forced back
into the world to rescue hiskidnapped grandchildren.
It's great.
And so I look forward to you allhearing that interview as well.
And then finally, this soundsinteresting to me, midnight at
the Cinema Palace by ChristopherTradowski, this tender,
exuberant novel about a youngman navigating coming of age in
(02:31):
nineties San Francisco forreaders of Garth Greenwell and
Andre Asman.
So check out those books today.
Like I said, this is such a hugeweek for books.
But back to the star of the showtoday, which is V Schwab.
Such a delight.
A little bit about V.
(02:52):
She is the number one New YorkTimes bestselling author of more
than 25 books.
Schwab series and standalonetitles for readers of all ages
have made her a major literaryfigure whose notable works
include the villain series, theShades of Magic Universe, and
the Invisible Life of AddieLaRue when she's not hunting
(03:12):
Paris streets or riding in thecorner of her favorite coffee
shop.
She lives in Edinburgh,Scotland.
So please enjoy this episode ofBehind the Stack.
I am so thrilled to be sittingdown with V Schwab, which is so
exciting for her new book, Bury,our Bones in the Midnight Soil.
(03:35):
it is so good.
It is the number one.
Indie Pick for June.
It is starred reviews from bothpublishers Weekly and Kikis.
It's getting so much crazypre-publication and worthy hype.
So congratulations and thank youso much for being with me today.
V.E. Schwab (03:52):
Thank you for having me.
I, as you can tell, I've like,the anxiety is, it's big right
now.
It's, it's it's hope and fearall tangled up, but I don't know
what to do with hope and I knowwhat to do with fear, so it just
becomes a very loud emotion.
Brett Benner (04:06):
Oh my God.
So before we get into the bookand, and I'm just gonna say to
our viewers and our listeners.
We are gonna talk about thebook.
I don't want to go so deep intothe book Sure.
Because I don't wanna ruinanything Yeah.
For, our readers.
And part of it is just thediscovery, but,, I had some just
general questions for you.
Of course.
Were you always a reader whenyou were, when you were young?
(04:26):
Were you a big reader and whatwere your go-tos?
V.E. Schwab (04:29):
I wasn't, I was an athlete.
And like I was never a bigreader.
I could read, but I was likethat kid precocious 10-year-old
who was like, I can put my eyeson every word.
It's the same thing as reading.
Um, it, but I wasn't the librarykid.
I wasn't a bookish kid.
I never sat still.
I have a very restlesstemperament and it wasn't until
I found a book when I was 11, 12and for very first time had the.
(04:53):
You know, quintessentialexperience of forgetting that I
was reading, right?
The same way you go to see amovie and you forget the edges
of the screen and your, youknow, your, your mind plays a
trick on you.
The same thing happens whenyou're reading and the story
starts playing a film in yourmind and you stop seeing ink on
paper.
And it really wasn't until I hadthat experience that I realized,
(05:14):
oh, this is.
My experience wasn't, oh, Iwanna just feel that way all the
time.
It was, oh no, I.
Like, I wanna make movies playin their head.
I wanna be able to control thehallucination.
Brett Benner (05:27):
And do you remember what one of those books
was that did that to you?
V.E. Schwab (05:30):
Of course I do.
I mean this is the, this is theMessiness of Life, Brett.
It was, it was Harry Potter.
And like I have a veryconflicted relationship with it.
Of course.
'cause of Rolling, not becauseof Harry Potter.
Um, it hard, especially as.
As a member of the queercommunity, it's very hard, so.
(05:51):
Difficult and problematic.
Um, but yeah, it was like thefirst time that I felt like I
was somewhere else and I wassomeone else.
And it's like I don't wannarevise my own history because of
her.
Like it's still so important tome.
It's so important to who I was.
(06:11):
It can't be important to whoI'm,
Brett Benner (06:13):
that makes sense.
Sure.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
You don't deny it, but, but itit is, it's a part.
V.E. Schwab (06:21):
Yeah.
It's like, I mean, and I, I, Istruggle, especially as a writer
now, I really don't like toseparate artists from art.
I know some people are reallygood at it.
I simply can't.
I'm too aware of the art outsidethe frame, so to speak.
So I have a really hard time.
It's my personal choice to notseparate artists from art.
Um, simply because as somebodywho works in the arts, I, I, I,
(06:45):
I need, I like to have thecontext.
I, you know, certain creators,they're knowing more about them
makes me respect the work even.
Um, the unfortunate side of thatis knowing them.
Not get to have that escapistfeeling that I had when I was
11, 12.
Right.
I don't get to have the samepurity of experience.
Brett Benner (07:06):
Absolutely.
Did you read Monster?
No Claire Dederer.
It's, it's the whole idea.
This is the whole thing about,you know, separating the art
from the artist know, oh wait,is the nonfiction?
V.E. Schwab (07:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is about, this is aboutlike cult of personality and art
versus artists.
Yes, yes.
It's
Brett Benner (07:23):
Picasso and Michael Jackson and all of it.
And it falls right into all ofthis, what you're talking about.
But it is, and I think what'shard about who you're talking
about is.
It just continues to becomedoubling down and it's so active
that that's that what makes it,that's the thing.
Like it's
V.E. Schwab (07:37):
not like, oh, somebody messed up 10 years ago
and like, you know, they saidsomething questionable.
It's just like the deniabilityis gone.
Right.
Your, your, your, that's right.
Window of plausible deniabilityhas expired by now.
Um, yes, and it's hard becauseI've very famously spoken about,
famously I, why I use that word.
(07:59):
Declared my kind of likecreative lineage in, in a, in a
lecture series that I did forOxford back in 2018.
And you understand, like I hadtwo heroes growing up.
I had the one that made me areader and I had the one that
made me a writer and the onethat made me a reader was
rolling.
And the one that made me awriter was Gaimen and mm-hmm.
Over the last decade toessentially have to like, you
(08:23):
know, bury your heroes.
Um.
Uh, and it's really challengingas a creator who can like,
pinpoint so many of the vitalmoments of my own, like, sense
of self within publishing andwithin creativity.
Like my favorite memories, mymost important moments.
And like there's a, there's likea corrupted hard drive element,
(08:46):
right?
There's a sense of like, yeah.
Oh, I, I remember going througheach.
Each one.
'cause I didn't wanna be able tojust like do the thing my brain
would do, which was to reflectback on like the moment I felt
this way because a hero saw me.
You know?
Yeah.
And it's hard not to like startthis conversation on a complete
(09:06):
counter, but it's formative andit's so hard to have heroes.
Um, I remember having a verydark conversation with a friend.
Who, like her hero was a famousfilmmaker that very recently
died.
And I, I have a very dark senseof humor, I should say to
anybody listening, thankfully.
So does she.
And I said, well, like, at leasthe died before he disappointed
(09:29):
you.
And that meant like he, but it'strue.
Like, you know, people who haveTolkien tattoos, I'm like,
you're probably safe at thispoint.
Like, I think you're gonna belike, you know, there's, you
know, I, sorry.
Deathly hallow, like, I.
It's, you know, there's a senseof like preservation.
And so part of me wants topreserve the impact that those
(09:51):
books had on me because they'resuch a part of, like, I don't
think I become a writer withoutthem as my, as my lineage.
There, there, there was such aprofound impact at such a
profound moment.
And then at the same time you'relike just, just deep pedestal.
Each thing and realizing thatlike my, my agent says a thing,
which is just because somethinghas served you in the past
(10:11):
doesn't mean.
Brett Benner (10:13):
Meanwhile, I'm still stuck on the idea that
there's a whole subdivision ofpeople like on on a Reddit right
now talking about what tattoothey have from Tolkien.
V.E. Schwab (10:22):
Oh.
I mean, you know, like I didthat, this is why I had never
get bookish tattoos.
I just, I ha I don't get any arttattoos because I have just a
distrust of the effects of time.
Brett Benner (10:31):
Right, right, right.
So you always seem to have like.
You know, you have so manydifferent things firing at the
same time in your brain.
Yeah.
And probably on the page or inyour computer.
Do you consider yourself ahighly disciplined writer?
V.E. Schwab (10:42):
Ooh, that's an interesting question.
I think I am a compulsivecreative.
Oh, I am a relentlessly creativeperson.
I wish I had more discipline inspecific ways.
I'm very disciplined in that.
Like I pretty much work everyday.
I don't really take a vacationfor myself.
I can't even if I wanted to, ifI'm conscious and sober, I'm
(11:04):
working.
Um, it's just like I.
Brett Benner (11:08):
Do you have a set time that you write or is it
just I start in the
V.E. Schwab (11:10):
morning because if I don't start in the morning, I
can't do it in the afternoon.
I just, the later in the day itgets without me making some kind
of progress.
No progress looks differentlydepending on what stage of a
project I'm in.
We were just talking aboutbefore we started here that I'm
basically less than two weeksout from a book release time.
It's not on my side here.
Focus is not on my side.
But I also don't wanna waste thetwo weeks of waste being a word
(11:33):
that goes on in my head all thetime around quotation, right,
waste.
What does waste look like?
It could be called rest, but forme, I'd say I don't wanna waste.
And so I'm essentiallycompulsively outlining.
I'm making notes.
I essentially sit down for twohours every morning and I just
like freethink.
Ideas about, of something I'mworking on.
So it's not just free writing,but it's like, you know, okay,
(11:56):
well what's happening?
Where did I leave thischaracter?
What, what could, what couldhappen here?
And essentially just for twohours straight in this kind of
phase that I'm in, well justtake notes.
Just in conversation with myselfon paper, trying to sort things
out.
And so, so I think it looks likediscipline.
I think it feels likediscipline.
At the same time, I had to lookthrough 17 separate word
(12:17):
documents to compile these notesbecause I had scattered them to
the wind.
So I think that might just be aDHD, not a lack of discipline.
Um, like I was making somethingfor dinner last night and I
realized I needed dill and Ifound a jar of Dills.
So I think there's, like, mybrain says that's a lack of
discipline, but I think it'sjust a lack of like, um, boots
(12:38):
on the ground, two feet inreality at all times.
Focus.
Brett Benner (12:43):
I feel like I'm my soulmate right now.
I
V.E. Schwab (12:44):
am, I am very disciplined in that, you know, I
know the next six books that I'mwriting and I will make notes
kind of compulsively on them,depending.
Things on deck, so I don't havea lot of lost time.
I would say maybe that lookslike discipline.
Brett Benner (13:03):
Sure.
But then how do you.
You wake up on Monday and say,oh, you know what, number five
is calling to me?
V.E. Schwab (13:09):
Yes.
I gotta go
Brett Benner (13:10):
with that today.
V.E. Schwab (13:10):
Oh no, I didn do that.
Is that really how it No, no,no, no, no, no.
Okay.
I mean, like those five are inan order as well, and I have a
pretty good sense of the orderare gonna happen.
Like you're
Brett Benner (13:19):
saying.
Dug out.
V.E. Schwab (13:20):
Yeah.
Very bad.
Or up for?
For right now, I'm letting it bea little bit more haphazard
because like kind things.
So as I'm ideating and kind ofdropping notes in, I have a very
long ideating process.
Uh, so basically before Iactually write a novel, I'll
spend at least a year planningthe novel.
(13:41):
I'll outline build character,build set pieces, and
essentially arrange the notecards, the storyboard for the
entire book in a narrativeorder, and then break it out
into a chronological order foreach perspective.
And then, wow.
When I have all thosecomponents, then I will know
that, okay, for the next sixmonths of my life, that's what
(14:03):
I'm writing.
Brett Benner (14:04):
It's weird'cause it's almost in some ways, and I
get it, like especially I get itwith this, it's almost like
you're writing individual shortstories and then bringing'em all
together into one greater piece.
I mean,
V.E. Schwab (14:11):
I think that's how I cheat my brain into not
quitting.
Because the fact is like thething I'm looking at today is
books five and six.
Of the shades of magic slashthreads of power series, like
shades of magics, 1, 2, 3threads of power is 4, 5, 6.
Um, it is daunting with acapital D, daunting to say the
least.
And so if I were to sit down andthink today, I'm working on book
(14:33):
five.
What a horrifying concept.
Like I shriveled as I thinkabout that, it's too big, it's
too much, it's too scary.
And so what I will do isessentially spend a lot of time
breaking the idea of a book downinto a series of escalating
episodes, the way like a 10 setepisode of television.
So I really try to look, alsohelps me get away from the
concept of a saggy middle.
(14:55):
And so what I'll essentially tryto do is instead of looking at
it as a three act structure,I'll look at it loosely as 10
episodes.
Wow.
And then I have 10 individualkind of miniature arcs of
activity, 10 set pieces.
And then in each set piece Ikind of break it down into
scenes so that when I sit downto write, instead of facing down
a book or even a section of thebook, I'm facing down like 10
(15:18):
feet in front of me.
Brett Benner (15:19):
That makes so much sense.
That makes so much sense.
And I'm picturing like a massivewhiteboard in front of you with
dry erase markers.
Wouldn't
V.E. Schwab (15:25):
that be great?
Because where that whiteboardexists, like a writer's room is
in my head.
Yeah, like that's the worst partis like the vast majority of the
whiteboard is not in a physicalspace, which, which plagues
every person in my life with somuch fear.
It is like I am like oneaneurysm away from it.
Nobody gets anything, right?
(15:46):
Uh, nobody gets anything.
Um, I like to say I leave it enccoded so that nobody can harper
leave me.
Like if I finish.
I don't wanna get canceled onthe internet for turning Harper
Lee into a verb in this context.
So I'm sorry everybody forgetthat it's 13 days before release
and I have no filter.
Um, oh my God.
Yeah.
So, but it is logic.
(16:06):
It's logical to a fault.
And I think a lot of peoplethink that takes the excitement
or like the creativity out, butthe truth is that year of
brainstorming is my,
Brett Benner (16:16):
wow.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
So you have, uh, listen, you,you have this arguably a rabid
fan base, right?
And you have people I hope so.
That have followed you.
Yeah.
You really do.
You have, and you have a reallylarge, uh, group that has
followed you, you from, fromyour start.
Yeah.
And you're also, and I thinkthat that is exponentially
(16:38):
really kind of exploded evenmore after Addie LaRue.
You are also really present onsocial media.
You're very generous to yourfollowers.
Yeah.
You are there, you are givingstuff.
How do you find the balance?
Mm-hmm.
And also, how do you learn tostick to your own vision and not
be influenced by mm-hmm.
These voices outside saying,what about this?
(17:00):
What about this?
Can we have this?
How do you do that?
V.E. Schwab (17:03):
I mean, I'm stubborn.
I also think it's important toremember that I started really
young, and so one of the reasonsthat I'm persistently accessible
online, even though I'm at apoint in my career, would
probably would be better for mymental health to be less
accessible online.
But the whole thing was that Istarted when I was 19.
That's when I signed with myfirst agent and, um, sold my
(17:26):
first book at 21.
And the thing that I noticed atthe time, earlier days of social
media, obviously, but the thingthat I noticed is just there was
no transparency.
Like you, you were felt solonely.
The only time authors everposted was to share good news.
They never posted about thecreative difficulties.
Really?
Because it was seen as like,gosh, right?
It was seen as like, don't doit.
And I just felt like this isdesigned to isolate each and
(17:49):
every one of us.
This is designed for like, itfeels tailor made for neuroses
and for insecurity, and thenwhen something goes wrong in
publishing, you think you're theonly person it's ever happened
to myself.
Was, I'm just gonna be as honestas I can in, in the hopes that
like, if anyone else isstruggling in the same way,
(18:11):
it'll feel less lonely.
And so what that means 15 yearsin is like, I still am just
doing that in the hopes that ifa, a writer who's just starting
or a writer who's not juststarting but struggling, can see
me struggling 25 books in.
It's the same thing.
Like it can feel it's, it canfeel really heartening to know.
Like, I wish I could say that itgets easier.
(18:32):
It doesn't get easier, but youcan at least know that like it's
the same struggle and it's not,um, it can feel like an
indictment, like when you arestruggling creatively and you
don't see other peoplestruggling creatively.
It can feel like an indictmenton your own creative ability
instead of just.
Like, being vulnerable in art ishard.
Making good art is hard.
(18:52):
Improving is hard.
And so I think like I'maccessible because I've really,
really believe in that.
It has gotten harder because Iknow that the, the larger the
audience and like I'm no longeran underdog.
I was an underdog for like 12years in publishing.
Right.
And I'm very aware of the factthat like I no longer an
(19:14):
underdog, an underdog.
Is still there.
Like I always feel slightlyanti-establishment.
Um, and I always feel just likereally self-aware of the
vulnerability and the volatilityof the establishment.
And so I kind of am just likeover at my desk focusing on
getting the work done.
(19:34):
And so I feel really comfortablebeing super transparent about
that because I want anyone elsewho's getting the work done to
know that like they havecommunity by virtue of the fact
that they've showed up and that.
Brett Benner (19:46):
That's great.
Alright, so for our listeners,for our viewers mm-hmm.
Do you have, uh, an elevatorpitch for Bury our bones?
V.E. Schwab (19:56):
I mean the, the three word headline rate is
Toxic Lesbian Vampires.
Um, it's, it's the story ofthree women over the course of
500 years and how their livesdeaths and.
It's the story of falling out oflove.
It's the story of collateraldamage.
Uh, and it's the story of a onenight stand gone horribly,
(20:17):
horribly wrong.
Uh, yeah, I just, it's a bookabout, um, the idea of vampirism
as a motif for autonomy, anagency, and especially about
like agency within the contextof queer history.
It's also about being messy.
It's about hunger.
I guess if I was, I was supposedto pitch this right?
(20:37):
I'm so bad at pitching.
It's just about hunger.
It's about hunger in every formit takes specifically for women
and fem presenting people.
Um, it is about the hunger to beseen, to be loved, to be
understood, and up space in theworld to make.
It's like, have 17, you're fine.
Elevator pitches tack together.
(20:58):
You're pretending to be anexplanation.
No, I always say
Brett Benner (21:00):
this, this building could be as long as you
need to be.
Um, it it, it's so funnybecause, um, when I was putting
stuff together last night, I didthink for me this is like a
merging of, and we will talkabout the and Rice connection in
a second, but interview with thevampire with.
The Hunger, literally the movie,the Hunger.
Oh, yes.
V.E. Schwab (21:20):
Yeah.
Brett Benner (21:20):
And I, and I have to say, like for everybody who's
listening or watching, if you'venever seen The Hunger, you
definitely should just for theshits and giggles of it.
But also if you don't even watchthe movie.
The trailer itself Yeah.
Is so genius.
Yeah.
'cause everything they weredoing in the eighties with the
voiceover and the like, she wasmeant for something more, you
(21:42):
know?
All of it.
Yeah.
With like beautiful CatherineDeo and David Bowie looking
amazing.
And Susan Ette and Oh, it'sphenomenal.
Sexy.
And it's so great.
It's phenomenal.
So great.
But that's what I, it's so bad.
Well, and this is very much
V.E. Schwab (21:53):
like, so I always joke that it's the interview
with the Vampire Meets KillingEve.
It's like really just about likeantagonistic.
Women, it is like, it's muchmore, people are always like,
oh, like twilight.
I'm like, it's much more a loveletter to interview with a
vampire and only lovers leftalive and a girl walks home
alone at night.
Like it's, it's, there's a lotthat it's in conversation with.
It's not really in conversationwith a lot of the modern.
(22:15):
Contemporary vampire culture?
No.
Um, because I'm reallyinterested in the like inherent
queerness of the originalvampire cannons on the original
VAM empirical works.
I just wrote, um, I can'tremember if it was called a
forward or an introduction.
I should really be better aboutthis, but I just wrote a piece
to go at the beginning ofCarmela.
A new edition of Carmela and,and the Vampire a combo.
(22:38):
So I just reread them and like,it's just so interesting.
I expect, it was the first timeI actually read Carmela and I
was really expecting to be blownaway by how steamy and lesbian
it was.
And I was like, oh, it's notlike it's still written by, so
written by a dude.
It's still, um, like it's stillabout the concept.
(22:59):
Um, like how dangerous theforbidden fruit of a knowledge
is, how dangerous the allure ofanother life.
And so that's really what I wasreally interested in looking at
that in the context of queerhistory and the idea that like
young queer people often requirea mentor of sorts, especially in
(23:20):
past historical periods, to comeinto their life and tempt them
and say, did you know thatthere's another way.
To live and that's wonderful andthat's enabling.
But I was like, okay, but whatif that person who came into
your life because there's anintoxication to being seen and
perceived as yourself for thefirst time, what if that person
was also super bad for you?
(23:40):
Because like we get into thesetoxic relationships, especially
early on in our own queerjourneys, more often than not
because we we're so.
Infatuated with the idea ofbeing authentically perceived,
that we perhaps don't alwayswonder if the person perceiving
us is the best for us.
So, sure.
I was interested in that elementof, of carmilla and also just
(24:03):
like general history.
And then the thing I love aboutyour view of the vampires, how
messy they're.
Like they're such messy gays.
They're such messy, messy queermen.
And it also, especially thetelevision adaptation, which
took a lot of the subtext fromthe film and made it text,
really explored domesticviolence within the queer
(24:25):
community in a way that I hungerfor, because I hunger for, not
that I hunger for domesticviolence, I hunger for.
Removing queer characters frompedestals and letting them be as
messy as their straightcounterparts, you know?
Right.
Because when we have to exist onpedestal, it suggests, one that
we don't have that level ofcomplexity, which is false, and
two, that we're not allowed tohave that narrative complexity.
(24:47):
And so I was really excited tosee that on screen because I was
like, oh, okay, like we'reready.
We're gonna like, we're gonnaexplore what it means to be in
some real toxic relationships.
I also wanted to play with theidea of the collateral damage
left in a an epic love storieswake, especially when it's
(25:10):
between monsters.
Like you have Louie and Lestatwho have varying levels of
complicity, of course, but theyare leaving so many dead bodies
and so many people in theirwake.
And you look back at like theMarvel era when they finally
figured out that they shouldlike address the fact that
Marvel superheroes weredestroying cities.
And that like people's liveswere being hurt and.
That they are biting or murderlike they had lives,
Brett Benner (25:35):
the lives ruined in their wakes, the families
that have been left behind.
This
V.E. Schwab (25:38):
is the thing I was like, this is truly a story
about the collateral damage ofsomebody else's epic love.
Brett Benner (25:43):
So here's my question for you then.
Yeah.
The genesis of all this, andwhen this came up, was it
literally like, I wanna write abook that has about vampires.
Or what was that initial sparkfor you that said, Hey, I wanna
do this.
And also leaning into thequeerness of it all.
Did you say, look, I wanna dosomething that really plays in
the queer space in a way that Ihaven't done before?
V.E. Schwab (26:01):
Yeah, I think there was.
Brett Benner (26:04):
And why?
And, and why?
I
V.E. Schwab (26:05):
think there were several factors.
It was right in the wake of AbbyLaRue, which is a story about in
an immortality deal.
And even though Abby LaRue is astory about an immortality deal
with the devil, essentiallyimmortality deals follow a form.
And vampiric immortality dealsare exactly the same.
It's a transactional thing inwhich something is lost, in
something is gained.
And so I, I wanted to writeanother immortality deal.
(26:26):
I didn't want it to be anotherdeal with the devil.
So there was that, that planthat was planted in my mind.
Could I write a different kindof immortality deal?
I wanted to have like a triptychof immortal stories, right?
As I'm also just reallyfascinated by what we do with
time, like the liberty that timeand immortality gives us,
especially what I started toexplore is like the freedom from
(26:49):
fear, like moving through theworld in a femme presenting body
is inherently a violent act.
It invites violence, it incitesviolence, it you are
automatically perceived as.
And I started thinking about thefact that like one of the
greatest forms of liberationwould is the moment that you go
from being perceived as prey tounderstanding yourself as a
(27:09):
predator.
This is a wish fulfillment for,for a young woman, right?
Like to, to be able to movethrough the world as Alice does
shortly into this book, whereinshe realizes for the first time
she not have to be afraid ofmen, that men should be afraid
of her.
Like what a novelty.
So I the radicalization of likeyoung women just being like,
what if I didn't have to beafraid All.
(27:29):
Um, it was something I wanted toexplore.
I've always loved vampires.
I love the inherent queerness.
And to answer your other part ofthat question, I spent about 14
of the 15 years in publishingtrying to assimilate in
different ways.
You know, I came in, um, as afemme presenting person into the
fantasy space, and I tried todownplay the fact I was a woman.
(27:49):
And then I came out and I triedto downplay the fact that I was
gay.
And I kept trying and trying andtrying.
To make mainstream publishingand mainstream readership Okay.
With me.
Right.
And when I say mainstreamreadership mm-hmm.
I mean the people who arereading straight white men.
And I realized at some pointaround Addie that it was never
gonna work.
That all I was doing wasessentially marginalizing myself
(28:13):
in my own stories.
And so, in the wake of thesuccess of Addie LaRue.
I had this moment with myselfwhere I said like, if you cannot
translate the success of thatnovel into the freedom to write
something without that desirefor assimilation, if you can, if
you have to just translate itinto the desire to write boldly.
Like if you weren't afraid, ifyou weren't trying to
(28:35):
assimilate, if you weren'ttrying to like not rock the
boat, I realized like the wakeof Addie was the time to do it.
So essentially I went to tourand I was like, you have been so
supportive.
You have supported everythingI've ever done, and I've just
made you a ton of money and nowyou're going to support me in
what I write next.
(28:55):
And credit to tour, they neverblinked.
I, I, I was like, I'm gonnawrite toxic lesbian vampires.
And they never were like, couldyou think of writing something
that might be easier for us tosell?
They were on my side from go.
They were like, we trust you, weare excited.
And then that excitement neverstopped.
(29:18):
And so I felt like I had thisincredible freedom and this
incredible privilege to writesomething knowing that the
publisher would support it.
Support it in a large way, andso that took a boldness.
I already felt a fatigue withthe industry.
I already felt and allowed methe full creative freedom to
write this book exactly as Iwanted to.
Brett Benner (29:38):
That's amazing.
I also find it pretty incrediblethat this book, which really is
about female empowerment, ledyou and empowered you to do
everything you wanted to do andget effectively everything you
wanted to get.
V.E. Schwab (29:53):
Oh, it's almost like the book, it was a
conversation with this work.
Like writing this book helped meso much in my own queerness
because for so long, like peoplestill didn't perceive me as gay.
Like nobody, everyone like, andmy books never made Queer list,
despite the fact that casts werequeer.
Everyone just like I just alwaysseemed to be straight passing.
And it it, because of that, Inever felt like I actually
(30:16):
belonged at all.
And the writing of this bookhelped me take up space, which
is so funny because it's like abook about taking up space.
But I have such a specialrelationship with this novel now
because it has allowed me tospeak boldly and
unapologetically andarticulately about something
that for 15 years I felt like Ishould.
(30:39):
In the interest of success, inthe interest of mainstream
appeal and um, and like I'msuper grateful.
I'm grateful to the publisherbecause they gave me that whole
support, like with their wholechest going in.
And I know that's something thatso few books get, but I'm just
really grateful that then.
What resulted from it is likethere's always a chasm between
(30:59):
the thing in your mind, and thisis published.
Of everything I've ever written.
It is the narrowest gap betweenthe thing in my mind and the
thing on paper.
Like it's truly, it's soimperfect, Brett.
It's so flawed, but it doesexactly what I want it to do on
every single page.
Brett Benner (31:20):
I love that so much.
What's funny to me too,'causegoing back to the whole Vampiric
thing about it, there is thismaneuverability in there because
of the sexuality, because Iremember like.
I, I read Interview with theVampire because Sting wrote a
song about it.
Right?
Yeah.
And so, and I, I remember, and Iwas obsessed with Sting and so
like he would say Jump.
I would be like, how high?
Yeah.
And so I remember getting thatbook in a tiny little paperback
(31:43):
and.
I was falling so in love withthese characters and, and, and
seeing these things that withoutanything explicit, actually
existing Yeah.
Breaking down all walls of kindof gender and sexuality Exactly.
And everything.
And she was redefining thiswhole thing.
And I'm like, and it was thefirst time too, that someone
would say, oh, it's fantasysci-fi.
(32:04):
But it was never, it was.
Always considered literature,right?
Yes.
Interview with vampire and thatwhole cannon became something
else.
And that's what so reminded mewhen you say homage to Anne
Rice.
Yeah.
You have done such a beautifulthing with this.
V.E. Schwab (32:16):
Aw, thank you.
Not only,
Brett Benner (32:18):
not only your movement through time, which is
so, and, and if I have anycomplaint with the book, it's
only that I wanted to live inthese spaces longer with each
character.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like I was like, this is 10volumes right here.
This is like worlds that exist.
Yeah.
Which I hope you're gonna say, Iwas, was gonna Oh, it'll
continue.
Yeah.
A
V.E. Schwab (32:37):
movie.
Who knows.
You know who, who, yes.
Who, who can say I, who can say,what I'll say is that, so Addie
and Bones are meant to be of thesame kind of like set, and it is
what I'm calling the garden inmy mind, which is essentially,
to your point, I really wantedto write urban fantasy of the
literary aesthetic.
Yes.
And I feel like what Ann Ricedid was this deeply romantic.
(33:00):
Literary urban fantasy.
Yeah.
And for so long I feel like Ihaven't felt that.
And so I was like, the, the mainrole for me as a writer is like,
write what you wanna read.
And I was like, I wanna readliterary fantasy.
Uh, like I wanna, and the thingis, I saw that with Addie.
Addie got shelved in generalfiction.
It was the first book of minethat got shelved in general
(33:20):
fiction.
And it's constantly being br bypeople who will tell me in their
next breath, first breath, Ilove this book.
Second, I don't.
That is fantasy.
And they're like, no, but it'snot really fantasy.
And I'm like, what do you thinkfantasy is?
And they're like, well, itdoesn't have magic and dragons
and all.
And I'm like, fantasy is anydeparture from reality.
And specifically, I wanna writeliterary like grounded fantasy,
(33:44):
which feels like it's happeningin our world.
In time like that, it's just,it's a, it's an art of noticing
problem then, right?
It's not that you can onlyaccess the world that I'm
writing about through the pagesof this book, like with Tolkien,
like I'm telling you that likeyou might have passed Addie
LaRue on the street, and I'mtelling you that you might have
been in a coffee shop that hadsongs playing that you couldn't
hear.
(34:04):
I'm telling you to like payattention to the way that the
inexplicable or thees.
History is born out of it is inconversation with it.
Like I, I wanted to writesomething that made me feel the
way the vampire lestat made mefeel when I read it for the
first time.
And so it, that's what I mean bya love letter.
(34:25):
It's a, it's a conversation withcertain dynamics and things I
didn't feel like I saw in booksfrom that time.
But it's also just a love letterto the, like the warm bath.
Of what fantasy can feel like.
Brett Benner (34:39):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I mean, there's something Isaid like Sabine, who is one of
the three women in the novel,
V.E. Schwab (34:45):
it's my favorite.
She
Brett Benner (34:46):
to me is I was gonna ask you who your favorite
was.
That's my favorite.
But Sabine to me is a littlelike, if.
If the Claudia in the interviewwith the Empire novel had given,
been given time to grow up, Iknow right before she had been
turned.
Yeah.
What she could have become.
Yeah.
And uh, yeah, there's three suchdistinct characters.
One starts in 1532, Spain.
(35:07):
One starts in 18 37, 18 37, andone in 1991.
Harvard.
Well, and there's, sorry.
There's one
V.E. Schwab (35:13):
other thing I want.
There's only one other way inwhich I wanna be playing with.
Ann Rice and that's that.
If you look at so much of thebook and now what's happening in
the television show,'cause Ijust feel like the television
show is such a beautiful, um,work is the concept of
perceptual reality.
And what I mean by that is fornine tenths of the TV show, you
(35:33):
meet one version of Lestat andit's a fictional version that is
living in memory and then in thelast episode currently that we
have, you meet OTT as heactually.
Is in real time.
And then the difference betweenhow we remember people and how
they actually are, and theconcept that now in the next
(35:55):
season we're gonna see adifferent version of Lestat
again that is perceived as heperceives himself.
And like I am so interested inthat.
And so this book is written inthree perspectives.
And the only thing that I wouldsay to readers before it is
think about who's telling thestory.
Can I learn this?
Coming back from fantasy where Iwas like, I would, I would write
(36:16):
a character in one book and Iwould tell the reader almost
nothing about them.
So the reader could make a snapjudgment.
And then over the next book ortwo, I would pick apart the
reader's judgment by telling youmore context about why they were
the way they were.
And it becomes much harder tohate someone when you get to
know them.
Brett Benner (36:31):
Sure, sure.
Oh my God.
I love that.
Yes.
They did have to ask you ifsomeone offered you the chance
to become an empire, would youtake it
V.E. Schwab (36:38):
a hundred percent?
In a second, I would've doneAddie la Ru's deal.
And that's the worst deal.
So like, yeah.
Happily.
Happily.
I live in fear of running out oftime.
It's a theme in all of my books.
I would do it a second.
Would you do it?
Brett Benner (36:51):
I would do it if I could.
I wouldn't do it now.
I would do it if I could back uplike 15 years.
Yeah.
Um, because I want to be, one ofthe things that time does is
make you look back and rememberlike, like, this is such a weird
thing and I'll probably lose,um, I.
Listeners because of this.
But I was jokingly saying to mykids one day, when you're older,
take naked pictures of yourselfbefore you're too old.
(37:12):
Yeah.
Because you, you'll never feelbeautiful, but you're always
gonna look back and be like,God, I was beautiful.
And that's what I always feellike.
I look back now and think you'reso insecure and your body
dysmorphia and all the otherthings.
Yeah.
And so now I would say.
Oh, I would, I would do it if Icould go back.
I want that experience of like,in the book about talking about
reading and how many books thereare and how many things to
experience.
(37:33):
I know Charlotte's like, or justlearning a language.
Yes.
V.E. Schwab (37:36):
Yeah.
The, the, the novelty of time.
Like I often say that if I couldhave a superpower, it would just
be a pause button.
I just wanna be able to likestop for a second and catch my
breath and like have a year tojust read and have no time.
Like I just, that's my thing isI, I think I don't, I think I
could live five to sixlifetimes.
Would I want to live for 50 ofthem?
(37:57):
No.
But it's also the reason I don'tbuy the concept of immortal on
we, which is another thing that,like, I don't get it.
The concept of Immortals beinglike, I'm so fatigue.
I don't wanna do this anymore.
I'm like, there's.
Like walk into the sun.
You can like, that's right.
Yourself.
Pay someone else to stake you.
You, you obviously wanna behere.
Yes.
You obviously are still here.
Brett Benner (38:19):
So, yeah.
Because there's always thepromise of what else and what's
next and who else, and who next.
That's exactly to me.
Exactly.
That's the discovery of whatelse could be out there.
What corner of the world haven'tI overturned yet?
Overturned rock.
V.E. Schwab (38:32):
Although, God, I think I just have such a.
Fascinating.
I mean like having just seensinners for like the fourth
time.
I'm also so fascinated by theconcept of how race plays into
that though, because obviouslylike yes, speaking as two white
people and like at the end ofthat movie someone is asked
like, would you like to be madeof empire so you can keep going?
And this man is like, you knowwhat?
I think I've seen.
I'm like, he's like, I think, Ithink, think I'm done and I
(38:54):
think I'm done.
Brett Benner (38:55):
But, but my God, props to singers.
I can't.
And props the musical signalone.
Can't I, can't I So next levelbeyond brilliant.
V.E. Schwab (39:04):
There's a surrealist moment in there that
like where the, the barn isburning down perceptually from
the outside.
And I, I just, this is the kindof art, like I walked outta that
film and I was, nothing in thisworld makes me more excited than
art that makes me wanna makeart.
And it's so rare.
And when I feel it, sometimesit's a song, sometimes it's a
movie, sometimes it's a book.
But if I walk outta someplaceand I just think I wanna go get
(39:25):
a pen and paper and like feelthe way that movie made me feel,
I, I'll be happy for a year.
Brett Benner (39:31):
It's incredible.
He's a genius.
Yeah.
Like the whole thing, the castacross the board so amazing.
But weirdly,
V.E. Schwab (39:36):
it's what makes me like, that's the best praise I i
I ever shoot for as an author,is I wanna write books that make
other writers wanna write books.
If that makes sense.
Like I wanna have thattransition of creative energy,
like where it's almost just averb.
Like, I just wanna writesomething that makes somebody
else wanna write something.
Brett Benner (39:56):
Well, this certainly, I mean, to, to say
like, I, is it, is it a bad dadjoke or too punty to say it's,
it's delicious and you shouldsink your, oh no, I've
V.E. Schwab (40:04):
made so many.
I'm like, do you want a firstbite?
Like you can go get a taste ofit online.
I hope it sinks its teeth intoyou.
I'm so glad it got under yourskin.
Like I've got.
Brett Benner (40:16):
You do.
I also have to say it, just on aside note, I love, what I love
about any vampire novel or anyvampire movie, whatever is the
mythology that the creatorcreates.
Right.
And the rules.
Yeah.
And I, I'm not giving anythingaway in this, but I love what
you do that's similar and whatyou do that's different, the
erosion.
I think it's great and
V.E. Schwab (40:35):
I just think I want, I want all of my fantasy
to come down to humanpsychology.
And I think, like, so for me, I,I also have to come from a place
of logic and I'm like, whyaren't there more vampires?
Like why aren't, why aren't weoverrun?
And I'm like, okay, well theremust be a self-destructive
element.
Well, how do we get aself-destructive element?
Well, what if over time theydecay morally and existentially
and they just become essentiallyanimalistic predators?
(40:57):
But that could happen in 10years, it could happen in a
hundred years, it could happenin 500 years, depending on your
attachment.
To humanity and I just, I likethe idea that like they end up
essentially getting in their ownway.
Brett Benner (41:09):
Yeah.
It's kind of like our democracyright now in America.
V.E. Schwab (41:12):
I was gonna say, it's like an addict chasing a
high, but it is also like ademocracy,
Brett Benner (41:17):
power, all of it.
Power, corruption, all of it.
And you know, and the thirst formore.
V.E. Schwab (41:22):
Exactly.
Brett Benner (41:22):
Well, this has been just a delight.
You are, you are absolutelydelightful.
Um, thank you Claire, as you, asyou know you are.
Um, but um, please everybody goout and buy the book.
Yes.
Please.
Read.
V.E. Schwab (41:36):
Oh, I've we're.
Look at how pretty and show it.
Show, show it.
The show the finished one isshow.
Look at all this.
Gorgeous.
Oh my God, it's gorgeous,gorgeous.
It's so, it's gorgeous.
Brett Benner (41:44):
And by the way, um, buy the damn book because
she signed so many of the damnthings signed.
300,000.
So
V.E. Schwab (41:51):
just put me on an infomercial at this point.
She,
Brett Benner (41:53):
she developed carpal tunnel and she literally,
that's not even a real hand shehas anymore.
No, that's gorgeous.
Look at that inside,
V.E. Schwab (42:00):
you know, we try.
Yeah.
It's
Brett Benner (42:01):
a beautiful, it's stunning.
It's so, um, thank you.
You will be lost in this thing,but I'm really excited for you
and for all.
I think it's, I think it's sofantastic.
So
V.E. Schwab (42:11):
thank you so much, hun.
Brett Benner (42:13):
Thanks again V for joining me today and.
If you've liked thisconversation or other
conversations that you've heardon this podcast, please consider
liking and subscribing at yourpodcast platform of choice.
And another thing that would bereally helpful is if you could
give me a review of Five Starswould be amazing and really
helps other people find thepodcast.
(42:34):
And I will be back later thisweek.
With Rob Franklin discussing hisbook, great Black Hope.
Until then, see everybody.
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