May 9, 2025 • 36 mins
Dr. Ralph Ford, chancellor of Penn State Behrend, talks with Dr. Joseph Beilein Jr., professor of history, about his new book about Behrend in the years 1980-2010. Originally recorded on May 1, 2025.
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Ralph Ford (00:00):
I'm Dr Ralph Ford, chancellor of Penn State Behrend
, and you are listening toBehrend Talks.
My guest today is Dr JoeBeilein, a professor of history
and the author of the new bookVision and Resilience, which
explores the history of PennState Behrend from 1980 to 2010.
Welcome to the show, Joe.
Joseph Beilein (00:18):
I'm very happy to be here and looking forward
to a fun conversation.
Ralph Ford (00:21):
Likewise and I'm going to go through what I
traditionally do, which is alittle bit of your background
you have a PhD and Master'sdegree in American history from
the University of Missouri.
Maybe you'd say it a littledifferently Missouri and a
bachelor's in history fromKenyon College.
You are a noted Civil Warhistorian, specializing in the
(00:43):
study of guerrilla warfare,gender and violence.
Some really nice book nameshere A Man by Any Other Name,
William Quantrill in the Searchfor American Manhood.
Second book, William Gregg's,Civil War, and then Bushwhackers
.
Your most recent one, GuerrillaWar, Manhood and the Household
(01:04):
in Civil War, Missouri.
You've also appeared and wecan't go without talking about
your celebrity interactions here.
You've been on the LearningChannel, the celebrity genealogy
show, Who Do you Think You Are?
You trace the family lineagesof actresses Jessica Biel and
Megan Mullally.
So a whole lot of differentthings there.
(01:25):
Welcome here again.
Joseph Beilein (01:26):
Yeah, no, you nailed the bio.
Ralph Ford (01:28):
Thank you All.
Right, well, let's talk aboutwhy did you become a historian?
Joseph Beilein (01:33):
Well, as a kid I always loved history, and I
think a lot of us can do thiswith our profession.
You can sort of trace it backto when you're really, really
young.
But I loved history and I thinkit was, you know, whether it
was like World War II movies oryou know different books.
I remember having like a bookabout Ethan Allen and the Green
Mountain Boys and just you knowall sorts of stuff.
So I always loved it.
And then when I went to college, I decided to major in history,
(01:55):
despite the grumbles of mymother who wanted me to major in
econ something that wouldactually, you know, your parents
said don't do it.
Yes, exactly, they said we'renot paying this tuition for you
to.
You know, go do what you love.
No, I'm joking, they weresupportive, but yeah, I just I
liked the history professors too, and so I sort of switched over
very early on from econ tohistory and at that point, yeah,
(02:18):
just kind of fell in love withit.
Why Civil War?
Sort of a strategic choice.
When I was deciding on go, Ithink I'd made my decision to go
to graduate school but I wastrying to figure out exactly
what I would focus on, and itwas sort of between World War II
and the Civil War, and myundergraduate advisor, Will
(02:40):
Scott, made a very pragmatic andstrategic decision for me.
He basically did the math inhis head and said, okay, when
you're coming out with your PhD,it's going to be right around
the sesquicentennial of theCivil War, so there's a chance
there'll be more jobs availableat that moment.
Oh, wow, yeah.
And I was like, wow, See, itwas a career decision.
Yeah, and so it really, becauseit really was he's like,
(03:01):
because it really was he's likeif it doesn't matter, if you
love both of these things andyou want to just go, and so
that's what determined it.
So that's why I ended up withCivil War history as my pursuit
and I'm so happy because I lookat what my fellow colleague, Amy
Carney does and she can speakseveral languages.
I mean there's no way I wouldhave been able to learn German
(03:29):
or Italian or French and be ableto do both sides of the war and
all that stuff.
So thank goodness I ended upwith the American Civil War.
And where did you grow up?
Are you from Missouri?
I'm from St Louis originally,Okay, yeah.
So St Louis is sort of asterile bubble when it comes to
the Civil War, it's not reallyNorthern, not really Southern.
There's not a lot of likefeeling about it.
But obviously in the outerparts of the state, you know,
there's a lot of sentiment aboutthe Civil War, and my mom's
originally from SouthernMissouri, so there is this sort
(03:49):
of history that I could kind offeel and understand on a
visceral level.
Ralph Ford (03:55):
Well it is.
Joseph Beilein (03:55):
You know, the place of the Missouri Compromise
, right Well, yeah, I mean whenit came into the Union there was
trouble.
Right, that's right.
Ralph Ford (04:01):
Yeah, so let's talk about manhood, which shows up in
the title.
So what exactly you know?
So, in that space, what are youlooking at there?
Joseph Beilein (04:11):
Well, just to offer a bit of background and
context.
There's a lot ofstraightforward military and
political histories of the CivilWar, but you know, beginning in
probably the 80s really iswhere these scholars hit their
stride.
People started to look at otheraspects of the war, taking the
angle of race or social class orgender in my case, and with
(04:35):
gender.
A lot of the early focusalthough not exclusively, but a
lot of the early focus was onwomen and in getting into gender
relations.
And then later on, in the early2000s, sort of right around the
time I started graduate school,a few scholars started to look
more specifically at men and howthey understood themselves as
(04:56):
men, and it was sort of like theflip side of the coin.
Right, there's both.
You know, gender is notsomething that's exclusive to
women.
Men obviously have it too, andthe more I read about it, the
more I realized we couldunderstand a lot about these
people, not only theiridentities, but also, getting
into my research, you couldunderstand more about how they
(05:19):
fought the war, like literallythe ways in which they fought or
why they decided to fight forthe Confederacy or the North or
whatever it was.
So it opened up this way for meto answer questions that
weren't just questions, thatwere social and cultural
questions, which were importantto me.
But you could answer questionsthat military scholars weren't
able to answer because they hadnever taken this sort of more
(05:40):
social or cultural historyapproach.
So it was just fascinating andobviously that's a unique time
for American manhood.
Right, you've got southerners,white southerners think of
themselves very differently thanlike urban northern men, you
know, and stuff.
So it's almost a contest ofmanhood in the war.
So those are some of thereasons how I got into it, if
that makes sense.
Ralph Ford (05:59):
Yeah, it does, and are you working on like a fourth
book?
Are you continuing yourresearch in this?
Joseph Beilein (06:03):
Yeah, yeah, I actually just got great news,
literally minutes before Iwalked in here I just got a
great summer fellowship to go tothe Buffalo Bill Cody Museum in
Cody, wyoming, wow.
So this summer or I might breakit up this summer, next summer
but my next project involves alot of the guys who are on the
opposite side of thebushwhackers, of the confederate
(06:24):
guerrillas.
A lot I'm interested in the menwho grew up in Kansas during
bleeding Kansas, becamejayhawkers or fought for the
north during the war and thencontinued on as scouts, as
hunters for the us army andparticipated in the wars against
the plains indians.
So and and the focus of that isvery much going to be how these
(06:44):
guys conceptualize themselvesas men and all of that- Well,
congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you, I'm pumped Now.
We just got to figure out whatwe're going to do with three
kids.
Ralph Ford (06:51):
You've got young kids and three now.
Joseph Beilein (06:54):
Yeah, good for you, and maybe they'll come with
us, who knows?
Ralph Ford (06:57):
Well, how did you end up at Penn State Behrend,
when?
Joseph Beilein (07:01):
I was finishing up my graduate work and I think
other academics know this.
You know you're on the jobmarket, you're looking at what's
out there, what's been posted,and there were a few jobs that
were awesome but were above whatI was going to get, coming out
of the University of Missouri asa you know, someone without any
(07:21):
established credentials, like Iremember applying for some
reason for like a job atPrinceton or Harvard, you know,
but you're just trying to like,get you know as many
applications as you can and so.
But then I applied to Caltechfor grad school.
There you go, never heard fromthem.
They didn't have the decency towrite me back.
Maybe they did, I can'tremember.
So there was some of that.
(07:42):
And then there were some otherjobs that were really good jobs,
but mostly teaching-orientedjobs.
And then there's this sort ofsweet spot, which I think where
Behrend sits, which is we reallyvalue teaching and that even
became clear in the application.
But also you were expected todo research and I remember
reading the posting and was likePenn State Behrend.
(08:04):
That sounds familiar and Iremembered that.
And I want to be clear, therewas no nepotism involved here.
But I remember that my secondcousin, dave Nyland was the
basketball coach here.
I did not know that and so itsort of set off a little bit of
a ringing bell and I was likethere's something about this
place and so I rememberedhearing about it earlier.
(08:24):
I didn't realize it was PennState Behrend, but I knew that
he worked at this college inPennsylvania and so I started to
dig into it and of course Icalled Dave and talked to Dave
and he was able to share a lotabout the campus and he had
nothing but great things to say.
So I applied for the job andluckily they were looking for
someone who could do what I did.
I think I was replacing someonewho taught the Civil War.
(08:44):
Those were really popularclasses, so they wanted a Civil
War historian, some of thepeople on the faculty and it
just was one of those thingsthat just worked out.
It was sort of like a reallygood fit for someone who really
likes to teach but also reallylikes to do research.
Do you have a favorite courseyou like to teach here?
Hmm, I have too many favoritesprobably.
(09:05):
There's some of the ones that Iteach almost every year I
really like, but of course Ireally like getting into the
sort of upper division Civil Warclass.
I just taught an upper divisionclass on colonial American
history and I taught it for thefirst time and I just said
goodbye to the students and itwas sort of one of those like
this was a lot of fun.
I also apologize.
(09:25):
This is the first time I'vetaught this course, so you guys
were here for the rough draft,you know.
But teaching new courses isawesome because you just learn a
ton too.
There are a lot of work, butover the course of the semester
you're like learning kind ofalong with them.
So I don't, I wouldn't say Ihave a favorite, but yeah, I've
been lucky.
I've taught mostly interestingstuff here.
Ralph Ford (09:46):
And we're going to come back to teaching and what
motivates you there.
But I wanted to switch now toyour book that, you know, is
part of the subject of ourdiscussion here today, which is
something called Vision andResilience, I think, the story
of the remarkable growth of PennState Behrend, and it covers
our history from 1980 to 2010.
(10:10):
And you know, I don't want tosound foolish and say well, how
did you get involved in thisproject, dr Beilein?
Because, as you well know, itwas an idea that myself and
others had, and I somehow oneday knocked on your door and
said, hey, I'm thinking aboutthis, but why don't you talk
about the genesis of this bookproject and what it's about?
Joseph Beilein (10:26):
Well, yeah, first off, I do want to talk
briefly for that.
I remember I came in here andit was like I think it was
around this time of year I feellike it was at the end of a year
and maybe I have it flipped,maybe it was early August or
something like that, but it was.
Things were either shuttingdown or just starting and I
brought my dog to work and Ithought, all right, I got to get
this thing into the building,get it in my office and we're
good to go.
And I think I saw you at thevery end of the hallway, at
(10:48):
Cockle, and I was like, damn it,the chancellor just saw me with
my dog and so you knocked onthe door of course we're like
the only two people in thebuilding and I was like oh hey,
ralph and I had double in ourdog there and that's when you
sort of ran the idea by me and Ithought well, I've got this
illegal mammal on campus.
I better say yes to this.
Plus, it's the chancellorasking, but that's how I
(11:10):
remember that Was.
Ralph Ford (11:10):
I nice to your dog oh you were great.
Joseph Beilein (11:12):
You were like.
I think you said something likesometimes I bring my dogs on
campus.
Ralph Ford (11:15):
I was going to just tell you I've been known to
bring my dog here.
Joseph Beilein (11:18):
It's on record now.
Yes, there you go, we're bothin trouble, but no, so you, you
brought the idea up and then itsounded like, or the way I
recall it.
The former leader of thecollege, John Lilley, was very
interested in this project andwe sort of started talking about
it and it just seemed likesomething that we could probably
pull off, which writing andresearching, writing, publishing
(11:41):
a book is not the easiest thingto pull off, but I think we had
enough people that wereinterested in this book
succeeding, so that's just kindof how we got the ball rolling.
Ralph Ford (11:50):
Well, I remember it as well.
I don't actually quite remembercoming to your office, so I've
got to work on my memory bankson that one.
Joseph Beilein (11:56):
You have nothing going on.
Ralph Ford (11:58):
You're not busy at all, or it could be other things
started pinging on our memories.
But the thing about writingthis I do remember this part
about the discussions early onis you really thought about it
and you came back and you saidwhat kind of book I mean, do you
want the campy?
I'm going to tell the nicehistory and it's going to be
like the marketing piece and youreally wanted to.
(12:19):
Now I'm not saying we'rewriting the history of some
historical period of the worldthat you've got to really be
critical about, but you wantedto be critical in what you did
and you wanted to be real andhonest and do the research and
not just make it a fluff piece.
Sure, certainly it tells ourstory in a positive way, but not
completely.
(12:39):
I just wanted what was yourthought process as that got
started?
Joseph Beilein (12:41):
Yeah, I mean and this was, in all honesty, with
the exception of, like, the timethat goes into doing something
like this, this was the hardestpart, right, and you know,
because we sent drafts back andforth and there were also other
people that got involved, and soit was difficult, and I think
some drafts were overly critical.
Other drafts I felt like werethere was stuff that was too
(13:01):
fluffy, and we did sort of kindof go back and forth and you and
I very politely disagreed onstuff.
We did, yeah, but more oftenthan not we were able to come to
a consensus, right.
Like you might say, like well,that's not quite how that
happened, and sometimes I go, ohyeah, that's right, and then
other times you'd say that's notquite how that happened.
I'm like, well, actually, itkind of is how it happened.
(13:25):
Yeah, it had to be somethingthat not only worked for me it
couldn't just be me standing onmy principles as a historian but
it was a part of a largerproject that we're doing here,
which is preserving the historyof the college and telling it in
a faithful way, but in a waythat reflects the growth and all
the good things that we've donehere.
Ralph Ford (13:46):
Yeah, and I think that your point about going back
and forth and I hope it wasalways, you know it made me go
back and look at some things andtry to find some of the facts.
But you really did all of theresearch.
I think it was hopefully fewand far between, but there were
some where I still have.
I've got it written, I've savedit.
I scribbled in there and alittle bit of smoke comes out of
(14:08):
my ears.
It didn't happen this way andthen you came back and said, yes
, it did All right, it happenedthat way.
So I think it was a goodprocess, but the credit goes to
you and the students who did allthe creative work.
But I mean, one of the coolthings about this was from 1980
to 2010.
For many who know or arelistening to this, probably, we
had Jack Burke and John Lilleyas the two leaders of campus and
(14:29):
you actually had access to bothof them.
You were able to talk to themand hear it firsthand.
You don't always get that as ahistorian.
Joseph Beilein (14:36):
No, and frankly it made me pretty uncomfortable
on a certain level.
I'm much more comfortabledealing with people who have
been dead for 150 years.
You can say a lot more aboutthem and there's no
repercussions.
But the flip side of that I'vethought about this a little bit
the flip side of that is, as aCivil War historian, of course
you're constantly thinking like,oh, if I could just get Lincoln
in here for a sit down and runa couple of things by him, I
(14:58):
could finally get some clarityright.
So you're always wishing thatthese people were alive and so
you could talk to them.
So it was tough and it actuallylike Lilley wanted to meet with
me a couple times early on andI remember just thinking I don't
really want to do it this way.
I want Jane to do these oralinterviews and then I'll go
through them.
You know that's the wayhistorians work.
We have documents, we sort ofwork through those and then if I
(15:21):
have like questions after thefact, it'll be great to ask
those to John.
But John wanted to sit down andfinally, after a couple,
clearly he wants to tell hisstory.
Totally and right.
And also in a lot of ways and Isay this, in the book he is the
source.
Sometimes he was the onlyperson in the room that's still
here and so it was a challengefor me, and I think, especially
early on, when you know, ericCordy, the former leader of the
(15:43):
School of H&SS school of an H, hand SS had this idea that this
really needed to be, you know, arigorous academic book and that
that way it would count towards, you know, whatever promotion
was going to be the nextpromotion.
And I started off doing it thatway and it was just so hard to
do that because I would have hadto read this whole other canon
of literature about, you know,higher ed and you know,
development and you know, andall this stuff.
(16:05):
And I read some of that stuff,but I just I was not prepared to
do that.
And I think it became a loteasier to not only write the
book but to engage directly withJohn and Jack Burke when I
decided, okay, we're still goingto stick to all the standards
of good professional history,but it's not going to go through
a rigorous peer review process.
Right, it's still going to gothrough an academic press.
But this isn't going to be thesort of thing where I'm making
(16:27):
revisions because I didn'tinclude this book or that book
in the historiographical chapterand all that.
So when I was able to do that,I sort of engaged with them a
little bit more as like a Idon't want to, I'm not a
journalist, I don't hold myselfto those standards.
They're way better at thisstuff than I am but it was a
little bit more of like ajournalist, interviewing them
and being able to have mysubject right there to get the
(16:49):
information.
And once I did that it wasgreat.
And John, as you know, Johnwilling to talk about all this
stuff and Jack is, you know,great and he's willing to talk
about this stuff.
So they were both incrediblyhelpful, sort of like, you know,
finding the path through allthis stuff.
Ralph Ford (17:03):
What was the environment they walked into in
1980?
What was it like here?
From what you could see?
Joseph Beilein (17:07):
What is the environment they walked into in
1980?
What was it like here?
From what you can see yeah, Imean, the words that they use
are words like dire, bleak.
I think Lilley came in preparedfor it to be a bad situation, I
think in a way.
I don't know if he knew if hewas going to move to.
You know he was a leader atKansas State but he wasn't the
leader of Kansas State.
I don't know if he thought hisfirst job was going to be kind
(17:29):
of like a place like this whereyou're going to have to like
build a place up.
So he seemed like he knew itwas bad.
But he came in with sort of agame plan.
He was going to get thecommunity leaders involved,
alums involved.
You know he had some alliesdown at uh University Park and
so he knew it was bad but heseemed ready for the challenge.
Jack Burke is so funny, he'slike.
You know I didn't even tell mywife how bad it was because I
(17:51):
wanted this job and it's clearhe believed in Lilley and he
could sort of see it too.
But for him I think it was alittle bit riskier because you
know he wasn't coming to takeover this place.
He was going to help this guywho had just taken over this
place and he had a good job upin the SUNY system and so for
him it felt a lot riskier.
(18:12):
I think he was walking in andthey might be packing their bags
and you know, in academiasometimes you've got a good job.
Ralph Ford (18:21):
It's a big risk to go somewhere else because you
might have to be totallystarting over and if you lose
that job then there's no thestory you're told about and what
you walk into you really don'tknow, right, and you might end
up with a board or yeah, totally, and then you're out the door
in six months.
Joseph Beilein (18:36):
Yeah, so it was not a good situation and it's
unclear what Penn State thoughtwas going to happen, because
they gave this place four knowfour-year college status a few
years earlier in the 70s and Idon't think they were sure how
this was all supposed to work.
So yeah, just the whole thingwas kind of messy and difficult,
(18:57):
but they believed in it, orbelieved in this vision for this
place.
Ralph Ford (19:02):
We talk a lot about John Lilley but go a little
further on Jack Burke.
What was the dynamic betweenthe two?
How did it work between thosetwo?
Joseph Beilein (19:08):
Yeah, I mean Lilley is definitely the vision
guy, not to say that Burkedoesn't have, you know, a vision
or didn't see the vision forthis place.
He did.
But I think when they were attheir best, Lilley had a vision
and he was looking out.
You know, he was sort ofconstantly thinking about
development, buying up more landfor the school.
You know, how are we going todo this, this bigger thing?
(19:29):
And Burke was the one who wasworking behind the scenes.
You know they would.
There's stories that I found inthe newspapers or even talking
to them or other sources, wherethey'd end up with a problem and
it might be a good problem,like they might not have enough
beds for the freshmen coming in,and Burke would have a few
weeks to figure that out andhe'd figure it out.
But other people I could seebeing presented with that issue,
(19:52):
like hey, our incoming class isactually too big, we can't get
them on campus, and that mightlead to just a panic.
But Burke was very cool andcalm and I think he tucked
himself away in his office andhe, you know he was in control
of all the finances, so he hadthat part figured out and he
just he'd get on the phone orhe'd, you know, get out there
(20:13):
and he'd come up with a solution.
So he's constantly the one whowas, you know, putting out
crises they couldn't foresee,and then also the ones that
Lilley would sort ofaccidentally create by saying
you know, we put in an offer onthis house or right or um, we've
got this.
I created some sort of an issueat university park, or maybe
university park created theissue and I can't figure a way
(20:34):
out of this.
So we've all got to go downthere and, you know, figure it
out.
So he was, he was definitelythe one who got things done.
Yeah, here's a problem Pleasesolve it.
Ralph Ford (20:42):
He was the operations guy, but also
everyone respected and liked him, and I think you hit that
exactly, and so you know weswitch as well.
One of the things that John didwhen he came in immediately or
soon thereafter, according tothe book was he started to reach
out to people in the communityand he saw that as really
important, and fundraisingbecomes a key part of his legacy
(21:04):
.
Talk to us about how did thatevolve?
Joseph Beilein (21:07):
Yeah, when he was interviewing the story goes,
he wanted to meet with somelocal leaders who were also
either alums or had a connectionto Penn State in some way,
shape or form, and he met withTed Junker and Tom Hagen, I
think, at the Erie Club and thiswas during the interviewing
(21:28):
process and he basically said ifI come, will you?
guys help me.
And Hagen had already beeninvolved in doing some
fundraising here and Ted Junkerwas, I think, happy to help I'm
sure he had already beeninvolved as well and that was
kind of how this whole thingstarted and they introduced him
(21:48):
to people and, to Lilley credit,he followed through on all
those relationships and meetingsand things like that and he was
sort of able to build thisnetwork that grew and grew and
grew and he reconfigured the.
I can't remember the names, butit was was it did.
Was he the one that took itfrom the board of trustees to
the council of fellows?
That's correct.
Council of fellows, that'sright.
Ralph Ford (22:08):
Yep.
Joseph Beilein (22:09):
So he rebuilt that.
Yeah, a lot of the same peoplecame over, but there were new
people and maybe people whoweren't anymore.
And then and he also saw, Ithink, the talent that different
people had.
And so Tom Hagen was runningthe council of fellow.
He was like the chair, and sohe was running these campaigns
to raise huge amounts of moneyfor the time.
You know, like five, $6 million, maybe.
(22:30):
It started off as two and thenit became five.
That said, maybe we can raise10.
And that that's what he wasdoing.
And and Ted Junker was like, hewas the man on the ground
everywhere.
If you go back and look throughthe photo albums, he is in the
background of every picture orlike in the foreground, smiling
and shaking someone's hand.
Ralph Ford (22:47):
He's the ultimate connector.
Joseph Beilein (22:49):
Ultimate connector.
Yeah, and so he.
Obviously Lilley recognizedthat about him, though.
Right Like, this is how thisguy can help me, and Ted
obviously was happy to help thatway, and this is how Tom can
help me, and he was happy tohelp that way, and Susie Hurt
Hagen became a huge advocate forthe school and a huge help, and
so he just sort of kept thesepeople involved.
Ralph Ford (23:09):
He did.
And talking about Ted Junker,he was a banker, right, he was
president or regional presidentof PNC and I will tell this
story.
Just a few months before hepassed away, I was able to have
dinner with him at my house andJoe Preshak, who was from
Plastic, and they told me thestory of how Plastics came to be
(23:31):
at Behrend, which was basicallyJoe Preshak was saying I can't
find any talent here, and TedJunker said I know where we're
going to go and he connected himto John Lilley and I mean that
is truly how it started.
The idea had been floatingaround but no one could make it
happen for quite some time.
Joseph Beilein (23:46):
Yeah, that's how it started.
That's great, that's great andthat makes perfect sense.
Yeah.
Ralph Ford (23:51):
So let's talk about what were a few of the big
milestones that happened.
Joseph Beilein (24:01):
So, in terms of just the history from 80 to 2010
, I mean there's a there are alot of them, uh, as we know, I
think, uh, getting rid of mostof the trailers, not to start
with the like stuff, like that,um, engineering complex, which
is now you know, the sciencecomplex over there, was a big
deal.
Uh, the cockle building andwhich, you know, cockle and
Lilley Library was probablyincredibly modern, you know for
(24:23):
the time, and still is a nicebuilding, and so building the
buildings was a big deal.
Buying up all this land, theAthletic Center when that
finally got built, which is now,of course, the Junker Center,
and now we have a second oneright for the students.
So you have, so those are a lotof landmarks.
I also think you know, as theypassed, these different
(24:44):
enrollment numbers, I think whenLilley came in, it was around
1,200 students, maybe somethinglike that, 250, maybe juniors
and seniors, and then you get toa couple thousand within a few
years and I think by the end ofthe 90s they were, right, around
4,000.
So all those were big watershedmoments.
And then there's other ways tolook at it too.
(25:06):
I mean there's these curricularmoments too.
Right, we go from the two-yearengineering program to the
four-year engineering program,which is happening while they're
getting all of these people whoyou know helped build the
engineering complex together,the Preshacks, and you know
Fasenmayer and Zern, you knowall these folks together.
That's all happening in the midto late 80s.
(25:27):
And then I'm trying to thinkhere you have the schools right,
these curricular things.
Schools are created, schoolsare created.
Lilley was really big on andthis was sort of a fad, but not
a fad, that's the wrong word,because fads go away.
But there was a lot trendingtowards business schools in the
late eighties and so he decidedwe need, we have a business
(25:49):
program, we need to have abusiness school that's off on
its own.
So I mean there's all sorts ofthings that that you know you
could say were watershed momentsor big moments in the
development of this place.
Ralph Ford (25:58):
Well, I think that's a good summary of a number of
them In this book.
In writing it, you hired anumber of student researchers
and got them involved.
How were they involved and whatdid they find?
Joseph Beilein (26:09):
So I hired.
So, in terms of doing theresearch, I hired three students
at different points in theprocess and what I wanted them
to do, I had one of them sort ofdo two things.
First, he kind of was workingalongside me.
This is at the very beginning,so he helped me kind of figure
out the larger contours of thestory.
(26:30):
And then, towards the end ofhis time with me, I set him on
this track of tell me whatstudent life was like.
And so he did a little bit ofthat and then he graduated and
went on his way.
And then I hired a couple morestudents to carry on with that
and basically their job was tolook through the newspapers and
then anywhere else it took themto tell me what it was like to
be a student here.
(26:52):
And you know this is one of thedifficult things about writing a
book like this is you have somany different forces.
Here you have the leaders of.
The difficult things aboutwriting a book like this is you
have so many different forces.
Here you have the leaders ofthe college, you have the
partners from the community, youhave Penn State University, you
have the faculty, but it keptcoming back to me the students
are what matter here, right?
They're not only what weproduce, but they're also the
(27:13):
means of production in thisplace in a lot of ways, and the
reason why we're all here, ofproduction in this place in a
lot of ways, and the reason whywe're all here.
And so I thought we should havestudents do the research about
the students, and so they did alot of the stuff and I told them
to find what was interestingand then sort of write up how
this fits together in your ownwords, and I was hoping that.
(27:36):
I don't know why I was hopingthis, but I kind of was hoping
that it would be a morewhimsical part of the book.
But these three students keptcoming back with all these
really serious social andpolitical issues.
And it's so funny because Idon't think many of us think of
Penn State Behrend as being this, like very rabid political
campus, right, but what occurredto me and I didn't talk about
(27:57):
this book, but what occurred tois the new student newspaper
back in the day was the way inwhich people expressed their
views and they wrote back toeach other and it was almost
like twitter, uh, you know, butwhere, where people were sort of
going back and forth, you justhad to wait a week you had to
wait a week for the responseyeah, and so they weren't for
(28:17):
and it's a very Midwestern thing, right there weren't students
confronting each other on campus.
Instead, they're in their dormroom and they're writing about
it and they have their ownfriends that believe in what
they're saying, and then someoneelse would write back.
And it's not passive,aggressive, but it's also like I
don't want to get into a verbalaltercation with this person,
and so and I just see that assort of a Midwestern way I was
at the University of Missourifor graduate work and that was
(28:39):
how that happened.
A lot of times People weren'tyelling at each other in the
streets, they went back andforth in the newspaper.
So, anyway, they found thesedifferent controversies and then
they gave it to me and I waslike, oh my goodness, now I have
to try and write this up.
And so I did the best I could,sort of pulling these different
stories together.
And, yeah, so it was a powerfulmoment because my students were
(29:01):
they were much more seriousthan I thought they were and
they just they did an excellentjob sort of point out what was
important and what they thoughtwas important to the students at
the time.
Ralph Ford (29:08):
Yeah, I think it was great reading that, and it's
one of the things that surprisedme too all this discussion
about gender and race and otherthings that were happening that
you wouldn't associate with thiscampus immediately.
So, as you said, it wasn'tabout donkey basketball.
Joseph Beilein (29:21):
Yeah, right, right, right silly stuff going
on.
Ralph Ford (29:24):
Can you tell us where can people find your book?
Joseph Beilein (29:27):
Yeah, absolutely .
So.
You can find it on Amazon, butalso you could buy it directly
from Penn State University Press.
It was printed under theBehrend College imprint, which
is great.
You know we have our own, ourown book imprint.
But Penn State University Pressdid an awesome job helping us
produce the book and get it out,and you know they came up with
a lot of the cover, artwork andstuff like that, so you could
(29:49):
buy it directly from the press.
It looks great, it's an easyread, great, and that's not
because a lot of research andwork didn't go into it, it's
just.
And that's not because a lot ofresearch and work didn't go
into it, it's just no it's notthat it's simple, it's just.
Ralph Ford (30:00):
But you know, of course I have a vested interest,
absolutely.
You know, once you sit down youcan read it, and I found it
very readable.
Joseph Beilein (30:06):
Yeah, buy a copy for yourself and a hundred of
your best friends.
Ralph Ford (30:09):
There we go.
So let's switch, and you know,talk again about your teaching,
and you know how would you.
I like to ask this questionYou're like, what's your
philosophy like in teaching andyou know what are you trying to
achieve in the classroom withstudents.
Joseph Beilein (30:24):
That's a great question and, as someone who has
probably spent too much timethinking about it and you know
many of us have it's a difficultone to answer.
I want to form a connectionwith the students.
I think that that's the firstthing you have to do to get them
to learn.
So I think there has to be likea human connection there where
I know their names, we're allcomfortable speaking in the
(30:45):
classroom, all of that.
I want them to find history tobe fun and dynamic, which is a
change for a lot of them whocome out of a high school where
they've just been memorizingnames and facts and all of that
stuff.
And I want to keep it fairlysimple.
A lot of my classes are taken bystudents who are trying to
(31:07):
check a general education box.
So there's a lot of engineers,business students, science
students, nurses you know folkslike that.
So I want them to come away.
My but really my goal is if youcome away from each class
learning one thing, that's ahuge accomplishment.
And if you come away from thewhole class, as long as you go
(31:27):
into your life and you can, likeyou, remember a couple things,
you know a year down the road,two years from now down the road
.
That's that's huge for me.
So that's that's really like atits most basic level.
That's what I'm trying toachieve in the classroom with
them.
Ralph Ford (31:42):
So if I take that a step further, then what do you
want them to think about yourclass 10 years later?
So do you ever think about that, like, what do you hope they
took away as the big life lesson?
Joseph Beilein (31:51):
Yes, yes, and I have thought about it for years
now.
Not as a teacher, but Iremember when I was a student.
There was a lot of things Ilearned as an undergraduate
student that didn't click untilI was in my mid-20s, my late 20s
my 30s, you know where you'resort of like, ah, someone put
the part in the machine but itonly just now sort of clicked,
you know, into place.
(32:12):
And so I think, first off, it'sa huge accomplishment if anyone
leaves this place and five yearslater they remember my class
and remember me as a professor,five, ten years later.
I mean I think that's great.
And then I just I mean I hopethey have like a positive
feeling about it.
And, like I said, if theyremember one or two things,
that's great.
I mean I can't tell you howmany college classes I took
(32:34):
where I don't remember anything.
I don't remember theprofessor's name, I don't
remember what they look like.
You know it was just a blur andit was not because of the
extracurricular fun.
I will say, you know, it's just, there's certain things that
your mind retains and it'susually the things, the
experiences that you felt likewere fun experiences, positive
experiences, where you feltcomfortable in the classroom.
And that's why all that stuffwhich doesn't seem like it has
(32:57):
anything to do with history, Ithink is so important to
actually teaching history.
Ralph Ford (33:01):
I mean if someone remembered you five years later
and they learned a lesson, andthey will.
And, by the way, many studentshere are very they remember your
classes.
My kids went through yourclasses.
I can say that, my two sons.
You may not even know that youprobably forgot their names.
Yeah, I mean probably, butlet's talk about the history
(33:22):
program.
So you're a member of thehistory program here, faculty
member, and we have a bachelor'sdegree in history.
Why should someone come hereand study history?
Joseph Beilein (33:30):
Well, I think there's all sorts of reasons why
you might study history.
We have different spiels thatwe give at these open houses,
but for me I think it'simportant that students if
someone loves history, I seethis as an opportunity for them
to continue that education.
And then you know, when you getout of this place we as a
program are sure that you willbe prepared to do whatever you
(33:54):
really want to do.
You know that excludes, youknow, narrow sort of very
specialized fields, but we havehistory majors that are in
everything from like lawenforcement and government work
to obviously working in museumsand teaching, to selling
insurance and, you know, andworking, you know, for large
corporations.
So the way that we try andprepare our students is we want
(34:16):
to teach them some skills likewriting, speaking they can do
research, stuff like that butthat they also.
We're trying to teach them howto think, as opposed to just
sort of what to think.
Again, going back to the highschool, you're memorizing stuff
here.
We want to teach you thefundamentals of how to think,
how to have dynamicinterpersonal relations with
(34:37):
people, and I think historyteaches you how to do a lot of
that stuff.
And the biggest thing, ofcourse is we want you to be
empathetic, we want to teach youthis skill.
Empathy is like a little musclein your brain that you have to
sort of pump it up, and the waythat you pump it up is by
teaching people to walk in otherpeople's shoes, see the world
from different perspectives, andall of that.
But I always go back to if youlove history, this is your last
(34:59):
chance to learn about it,Absolutely yeah.
Ralph Ford (35:03):
Well, we are coming to the end of the interview.
Sure, I will give you the lastword.
Joseph Beilein (35:09):
There's not a ton.
Other than you know, vision andresilience was a great learning
experience for me and I thinkthat people who pick up this
book, whether they're in highered or they're interested in our
college, I think it willhopefully give them a pretty
(35:30):
accurate view of what happenedhere, and not just what happened
, but why things happened inthis place.
Ralph Ford (35:35):
Yeah, well, thank you, I appreciate it.
My guest today is Dr JoeBeilein.
You have been listening toBehrend Talks.
I'm Dr Ralph Ford, chancellor of Penn State Behrend
, and you are listening toBehrend Talks.
My guest today is Dr JoeBeilein, a professor of history
and the author of the new bookVision and Resilience, which
explores the history of PennState Behrend from 1980 to 2010.
Welcome to the show, Joe.
Joseph Beilein (00:18):
I'm very happy to be here and looking forward
to a fun conversation.
Ralph Ford (00:21):
Likewise and I'm going to go through what I
traditionally do, which is alittle bit of your background
you have a PhD and Master'sdegree in American history from
the University of Missouri.
Maybe you'd say it a littledifferently Missouri and a
bachelor's in history fromKenyon College.
You are a noted Civil Warhistorian, specializing in the
(00:43):
study of guerrilla warfare,gender and violence.
Some really nice book nameshere A Man by Any Other Name,
William Quantrill in the Searchfor American Manhood.
Second book, William Gregg's,Civil War, and then Bushwhackers
.
Your most recent one, GuerrillaWar, Manhood and the Household
(01:04):
in Civil War, Missouri.
You've also appeared and wecan't go without talking about
your celebrity interactions here.
You've been on the LearningChannel, the celebrity genealogy
show, Who Do you Think You Are?
You trace the family lineagesof actresses Jessica Biel and
Megan Mullally.
So a whole lot of differentthings there.
(01:25):
Welcome here again.
Joseph Beilein (01:26):
Yeah, no, you nailed the bio.
Ralph Ford (01:28):
Thank you All.
Right, well, let's talk aboutwhy did you become a historian?
Joseph Beilein (01:33):
Well, as a kid I always loved history, and I
think a lot of us can do thiswith our profession.
You can sort of trace it backto when you're really, really
young.
But I loved history and I thinkit was, you know, whether it
was like World War II movies oryou know different books.
I remember having like a bookabout Ethan Allen and the Green
Mountain Boys and just you knowall sorts of stuff.
So I always loved it.
And then when I went to college, I decided to major in history,
(01:55):
despite the grumbles of mymother who wanted me to major in
econ something that wouldactually, you know, your parents
said don't do it.
Yes, exactly, they said we'renot paying this tuition for you
to.
You know, go do what you love.
No, I'm joking, they weresupportive, but yeah, I just I
liked the history professors too, and so I sort of switched over
very early on from econ tohistory and at that point, yeah,
(02:18):
just kind of fell in love withit.
Why Civil War?
Sort of a strategic choice.
When I was deciding on go, Ithink I'd made my decision to go
to graduate school but I wastrying to figure out exactly
what I would focus on, and itwas sort of between World War II
and the Civil War, and myundergraduate advisor, Will
(02:40):
Scott, made a very pragmatic andstrategic decision for me.
He basically did the math inhis head and said, okay, when
you're coming out with your PhD,it's going to be right around
the sesquicentennial of theCivil War, so there's a chance
there'll be more jobs availableat that moment.
Oh, wow, yeah.
And I was like, wow, See, itwas a career decision.
Yeah, and so it really, becauseit really was he's like,
(03:01):
because it really was he's likeif it doesn't matter, if you
love both of these things andyou want to just go, and so
that's what determined it.
So that's why I ended up withCivil War history as my pursuit
and I'm so happy because I lookat what my fellow colleague, Amy
Carney does and she can speakseveral languages.
I mean there's no way I wouldhave been able to learn German
(03:29):
or Italian or French and be ableto do both sides of the war and
all that stuff.
So thank goodness I ended upwith the American Civil War.
And where did you grow up?
Are you from Missouri?
I'm from St Louis originally,Okay, yeah.
So St Louis is sort of asterile bubble when it comes to
the Civil War, it's not reallyNorthern, not really Southern.
There's not a lot of likefeeling about it.
But obviously in the outerparts of the state, you know,
there's a lot of sentiment aboutthe Civil War, and my mom's
originally from SouthernMissouri, so there is this sort
(03:49):
of history that I could kind offeel and understand on a
visceral level.
Ralph Ford (03:55):
Well it is.
Joseph Beilein (03:55):
You know, the place of the Missouri Compromise
, right Well, yeah, I mean whenit came into the Union there was
trouble.
Right, that's right.
Ralph Ford (04:01):
Yeah, so let's talk about manhood, which shows up in
the title.
So what exactly you know?
So, in that space, what are youlooking at there?
Joseph Beilein (04:11):
Well, just to offer a bit of background and
context.
There's a lot ofstraightforward military and
political histories of the CivilWar, but you know, beginning in
probably the 80s really iswhere these scholars hit their
stride.
People started to look at otheraspects of the war, taking the
angle of race or social class orgender in my case, and with
(04:35):
gender.
A lot of the early focusalthough not exclusively, but a
lot of the early focus was onwomen and in getting into gender
relations.
And then later on, in the early2000s, sort of right around the
time I started graduate school,a few scholars started to look
more specifically at men and howthey understood themselves as
(04:56):
men, and it was sort of like theflip side of the coin.
Right, there's both.
You know, gender is notsomething that's exclusive to
women.
Men obviously have it too, andthe more I read about it, the
more I realized we couldunderstand a lot about these
people, not only theiridentities, but also, getting
into my research, you couldunderstand more about how they
(05:19):
fought the war, like literallythe ways in which they fought or
why they decided to fight forthe Confederacy or the North or
whatever it was.
So it opened up this way for meto answer questions that
weren't just questions, thatwere social and cultural
questions, which were importantto me.
But you could answer questionsthat military scholars weren't
able to answer because they hadnever taken this sort of more
(05:40):
social or cultural historyapproach.
So it was just fascinating andobviously that's a unique time
for American manhood.
Right, you've got southerners,white southerners think of
themselves very differently thanlike urban northern men, you
know, and stuff.
So it's almost a contest ofmanhood in the war.
So those are some of thereasons how I got into it, if
that makes sense.
Ralph Ford (05:59):
Yeah, it does, and are you working on like a fourth
book?
Are you continuing yourresearch in this?
Joseph Beilein (06:03):
Yeah, yeah, I actually just got great news,
literally minutes before Iwalked in here I just got a
great summer fellowship to go tothe Buffalo Bill Cody Museum in
Cody, wyoming, wow.
So this summer or I might breakit up this summer, next summer
but my next project involves alot of the guys who are on the
opposite side of thebushwhackers, of the confederate
(06:24):
guerrillas.
A lot I'm interested in the menwho grew up in Kansas during
bleeding Kansas, becamejayhawkers or fought for the
north during the war and thencontinued on as scouts, as
hunters for the us army andparticipated in the wars against
the plains indians.
So and and the focus of that isvery much going to be how these
(06:44):
guys conceptualize themselvesas men and all of that- Well,
congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you, I'm pumped Now.
We just got to figure out whatwe're going to do with three
kids.
Ralph Ford (06:51):
You've got young kids and three now.
Joseph Beilein (06:54):
Yeah, good for you, and maybe they'll come with
us, who knows?
Ralph Ford (06:57):
Well, how did you end up at Penn State Behrend,
when?
Joseph Beilein (07:01):
I was finishing up my graduate work and I think
other academics know this.
You know you're on the jobmarket, you're looking at what's
out there, what's been posted,and there were a few jobs that
were awesome but were above whatI was going to get, coming out
of the University of Missouri asa you know, someone without any
(07:21):
established credentials, like Iremember applying for some
reason for like a job atPrinceton or Harvard, you know,
but you're just trying to like,get you know as many
applications as you can and so.
But then I applied to Caltechfor grad school.
There you go, never heard fromthem.
They didn't have the decency towrite me back.
Maybe they did, I can'tremember.
So there was some of that.
(07:42):
And then there were some otherjobs that were really good jobs,
but mostly teaching-orientedjobs.
And then there's this sort ofsweet spot, which I think where
Behrend sits, which is we reallyvalue teaching and that even
became clear in the application.
But also you were expected todo research and I remember
reading the posting and was likePenn State Behrend.
(08:04):
That sounds familiar and Iremembered that.
And I want to be clear, therewas no nepotism involved here.
But I remember that my secondcousin, dave Nyland was the
basketball coach here.
I did not know that and so itsort of set off a little bit of
a ringing bell and I was likethere's something about this
place and so I rememberedhearing about it earlier.
(08:24):
I didn't realize it was PennState Behrend, but I knew that
he worked at this college inPennsylvania and so I started to
dig into it and of course Icalled Dave and talked to Dave
and he was able to share a lotabout the campus and he had
nothing but great things to say.
So I applied for the job andluckily they were looking for
someone who could do what I did.
I think I was replacing someonewho taught the Civil War.
(08:44):
Those were really popularclasses, so they wanted a Civil
War historian, some of thepeople on the faculty and it
just was one of those thingsthat just worked out.
It was sort of like a reallygood fit for someone who really
likes to teach but also reallylikes to do research.
Do you have a favorite courseyou like to teach here?
Hmm, I have too many favoritesprobably.
(09:05):
There's some of the ones that Iteach almost every year I
really like, but of course Ireally like getting into the
sort of upper division Civil Warclass.
I just taught an upper divisionclass on colonial American
history and I taught it for thefirst time and I just said
goodbye to the students and itwas sort of one of those like
this was a lot of fun.
I also apologize.
(09:25):
This is the first time I'vetaught this course, so you guys
were here for the rough draft,you know.
But teaching new courses isawesome because you just learn a
ton too.
There are a lot of work, butover the course of the semester
you're like learning kind ofalong with them.
So I don't, I wouldn't say Ihave a favorite, but yeah, I've
been lucky.
I've taught mostly interestingstuff here.
Ralph Ford (09:46):
And we're going to come back to teaching and what
motivates you there.
But I wanted to switch now toyour book that, you know, is
part of the subject of ourdiscussion here today, which is
something called Vision andResilience, I think, the story
of the remarkable growth of PennState Behrend, and it covers
our history from 1980 to 2010.
(10:10):
And you know, I don't want tosound foolish and say well, how
did you get involved in thisproject, dr Beilein?
Because, as you well know, itwas an idea that myself and
others had, and I somehow oneday knocked on your door and
said, hey, I'm thinking aboutthis, but why don't you talk
about the genesis of this bookproject and what it's about?
Joseph Beilein (10:26):
Well, yeah, first off, I do want to talk
briefly for that.
I remember I came in here andit was like I think it was
around this time of year I feellike it was at the end of a year
and maybe I have it flipped,maybe it was early August or
something like that, but it was.
Things were either shuttingdown or just starting and I
brought my dog to work and Ithought, all right, I got to get
this thing into the building,get it in my office and we're
good to go.
And I think I saw you at thevery end of the hallway, at
(10:48):
Cockle, and I was like, damn it,the chancellor just saw me with
my dog and so you knocked onthe door of course we're like
the only two people in thebuilding and I was like oh hey,
ralph and I had double in ourdog there and that's when you
sort of ran the idea by me and Ithought well, I've got this
illegal mammal on campus.
I better say yes to this.
Plus, it's the chancellorasking, but that's how I
(11:10):
remember that Was.
Ralph Ford (11:10):
I nice to your dog oh you were great.
Joseph Beilein (11:12):
You were like.
I think you said something likesometimes I bring my dogs on
campus.
Ralph Ford (11:15):
I was going to just tell you I've been known to
bring my dog here.
Joseph Beilein (11:18):
It's on record now.
Yes, there you go, we're bothin trouble, but no, so you, you
brought the idea up and then itsounded like, or the way I
recall it.
The former leader of thecollege, John Lilley, was very
interested in this project andwe sort of started talking about
it and it just seemed likesomething that we could probably
pull off, which writing andresearching, writing, publishing
(11:41):
a book is not the easiest thingto pull off, but I think we had
enough people that wereinterested in this book
succeeding, so that's just kindof how we got the ball rolling.
Ralph Ford (11:50):
Well, I remember it as well.
I don't actually quite remembercoming to your office, so I've
got to work on my memory bankson that one.
Joseph Beilein (11:56):
You have nothing going on.
Ralph Ford (11:58):
You're not busy at all, or it could be other things
started pinging on our memories.
But the thing about writingthis I do remember this part
about the discussions early onis you really thought about it
and you came back and you saidwhat kind of book I mean, do you
want the campy?
I'm going to tell the nicehistory and it's going to be
like the marketing piece and youreally wanted to.
(12:19):
Now I'm not saying we'rewriting the history of some
historical period of the worldthat you've got to really be
critical about, but you wantedto be critical in what you did
and you wanted to be real andhonest and do the research and
not just make it a fluff piece.
Sure, certainly it tells ourstory in a positive way, but not
completely.
(12:39):
I just wanted what was yourthought process as that got
started?
Joseph Beilein (12:41):
Yeah, I mean and this was, in all honesty, with
the exception of, like, the timethat goes into doing something
like this, this was the hardestpart, right, and you know,
because we sent drafts back andforth and there were also other
people that got involved, and soit was difficult, and I think
some drafts were overly critical.
Other drafts I felt like werethere was stuff that was too
(13:01):
fluffy, and we did sort of kindof go back and forth and you and
I very politely disagreed onstuff.
We did, yeah, but more oftenthan not we were able to come to
a consensus, right.
Like you might say, like well,that's not quite how that
happened, and sometimes I go, ohyeah, that's right, and then
other times you'd say that's notquite how that happened.
I'm like, well, actually, itkind of is how it happened.
(13:25):
Yeah, it had to be somethingthat not only worked for me it
couldn't just be me standing onmy principles as a historian but
it was a part of a largerproject that we're doing here,
which is preserving the historyof the college and telling it in
a faithful way, but in a waythat reflects the growth and all
the good things that we've donehere.
Ralph Ford (13:46):
Yeah, and I think that your point about going back
and forth and I hope it wasalways, you know it made me go
back and look at some things andtry to find some of the facts.
But you really did all of theresearch.
I think it was hopefully fewand far between, but there were
some where I still have.
I've got it written, I've savedit.
I scribbled in there and alittle bit of smoke comes out of
(14:08):
my ears.
It didn't happen this way andthen you came back and said, yes
, it did All right, it happenedthat way.
So I think it was a goodprocess, but the credit goes to
you and the students who did allthe creative work.
But I mean, one of the coolthings about this was from 1980
to 2010.
For many who know or arelistening to this, probably, we
had Jack Burke and John Lilleyas the two leaders of campus and
(14:29):
you actually had access to bothof them.
You were able to talk to themand hear it firsthand.
You don't always get that as ahistorian.
Joseph Beilein (14:36):
No, and frankly it made me pretty uncomfortable
on a certain level.
I'm much more comfortabledealing with people who have
been dead for 150 years.
You can say a lot more aboutthem and there's no
repercussions.
But the flip side of that I'vethought about this a little bit
the flip side of that is, as aCivil War historian, of course
you're constantly thinking like,oh, if I could just get Lincoln
in here for a sit down and runa couple of things by him, I
(14:58):
could finally get some clarityright.
So you're always wishing thatthese people were alive and so
you could talk to them.
So it was tough and it actuallylike Lilley wanted to meet with
me a couple times early on andI remember just thinking I don't
really want to do it this way.
I want Jane to do these oralinterviews and then I'll go
through them.
You know that's the wayhistorians work.
We have documents, we sort ofwork through those and then if I
(15:21):
have like questions after thefact, it'll be great to ask
those to John.
But John wanted to sit down andfinally, after a couple,
clearly he wants to tell hisstory.
Totally and right.
And also in a lot of ways and Isay this, in the book he is the
source.
Sometimes he was the onlyperson in the room that's still
here and so it was a challengefor me, and I think, especially
early on, when you know, ericCordy, the former leader of the
(15:43):
School of H&SS school of an H, hand SS had this idea that this
really needed to be, you know, arigorous academic book and that
that way it would count towards, you know, whatever promotion
was going to be the nextpromotion.
And I started off doing it thatway and it was just so hard to
do that because I would have hadto read this whole other canon
of literature about, you know,higher ed and you know,
development and you know, andall this stuff.
(16:05):
And I read some of that stuff,but I just I was not prepared to
do that.
And I think it became a loteasier to not only write the
book but to engage directly withJohn and Jack Burke when I
decided, okay, we're still goingto stick to all the standards
of good professional history,but it's not going to go through
a rigorous peer review process.
Right, it's still going to gothrough an academic press.
But this isn't going to be thesort of thing where I'm making
(16:27):
revisions because I didn'tinclude this book or that book
in the historiographical chapterand all that.
So when I was able to do that,I sort of engaged with them a
little bit more as like a Idon't want to, I'm not a
journalist, I don't hold myselfto those standards.
They're way better at thisstuff than I am but it was a
little bit more of like ajournalist, interviewing them
and being able to have mysubject right there to get the
(16:49):
information.
And once I did that it wasgreat.
And John, as you know, Johnwilling to talk about all this
stuff and Jack is, you know,great and he's willing to talk
about this stuff.
So they were both incrediblyhelpful, sort of like, you know,
finding the path through allthis stuff.
Ralph Ford (17:03):
What was the environment they walked into in
1980?
What was it like here?
From what you could see?
Joseph Beilein (17:07):
What is the environment they walked into in
1980?
What was it like here?
From what you can see yeah, Imean, the words that they use
are words like dire, bleak.
I think Lilley came in preparedfor it to be a bad situation, I
think in a way.
I don't know if he knew if hewas going to move to.
You know he was a leader atKansas State but he wasn't the
leader of Kansas State.
I don't know if he thought hisfirst job was going to be kind
(17:29):
of like a place like this whereyou're going to have to like
build a place up.
So he seemed like he knew itwas bad.
But he came in with sort of agame plan.
He was going to get thecommunity leaders involved,
alums involved.
You know he had some alliesdown at uh University Park and
so he knew it was bad but heseemed ready for the challenge.
Jack Burke is so funny, he'slike.
You know I didn't even tell mywife how bad it was because I
(17:51):
wanted this job and it's clearhe believed in Lilley and he
could sort of see it too.
But for him I think it was alittle bit riskier because you
know he wasn't coming to takeover this place.
He was going to help this guywho had just taken over this
place and he had a good job upin the SUNY system and so for
him it felt a lot riskier.
(18:12):
I think he was walking in andthey might be packing their bags
and you know, in academiasometimes you've got a good job.
Ralph Ford (18:21):
It's a big risk to go somewhere else because you
might have to be totallystarting over and if you lose
that job then there's no thestory you're told about and what
you walk into you really don'tknow, right, and you might end
up with a board or yeah, totally, and then you're out the door
in six months.
Joseph Beilein (18:36):
Yeah, so it was not a good situation and it's
unclear what Penn State thoughtwas going to happen, because
they gave this place four knowfour-year college status a few
years earlier in the 70s and Idon't think they were sure how
this was all supposed to work.
So yeah, just the whole thingwas kind of messy and difficult,
(18:57):
but they believed in it, orbelieved in this vision for this
place.
Ralph Ford (19:02):
We talk a lot about John Lilley but go a little
further on Jack Burke.
What was the dynamic betweenthe two?
How did it work between thosetwo?
Joseph Beilein (19:08):
Yeah, I mean Lilley is definitely the vision
guy, not to say that Burkedoesn't have, you know, a vision
or didn't see the vision forthis place.
He did.
But I think when they were attheir best, Lilley had a vision
and he was looking out.
You know, he was sort ofconstantly thinking about
development, buying up more landfor the school.
You know, how are we going todo this, this bigger thing?
(19:29):
And Burke was the one who wasworking behind the scenes.
You know they would.
There's stories that I found inthe newspapers or even talking
to them or other sources, wherethey'd end up with a problem and
it might be a good problem,like they might not have enough
beds for the freshmen coming in,and Burke would have a few
weeks to figure that out andhe'd figure it out.
But other people I could seebeing presented with that issue,
(19:52):
like hey, our incoming class isactually too big, we can't get
them on campus, and that mightlead to just a panic.
But Burke was very cool andcalm and I think he tucked
himself away in his office andhe, you know he was in control
of all the finances, so he hadthat part figured out and he
just he'd get on the phone orhe'd, you know, get out there
(20:13):
and he'd come up with a solution.
So he's constantly the one whowas, you know, putting out
crises they couldn't foresee,and then also the ones that
Lilley would sort ofaccidentally create by saying
you know, we put in an offer onthis house or right or um, we've
got this.
I created some sort of an issueat university park, or maybe
university park created theissue and I can't figure a way
(20:34):
out of this.
So we've all got to go downthere and, you know, figure it
out.
So he was, he was definitelythe one who got things done.
Yeah, here's a problem Pleasesolve it.
Ralph Ford (20:42):
He was the operations guy, but also
everyone respected and liked him, and I think you hit that
exactly, and so you know weswitch as well.
One of the things that John didwhen he came in immediately or
soon thereafter, according tothe book was he started to reach
out to people in the communityand he saw that as really
important, and fundraisingbecomes a key part of his legacy
(21:04):
.
Talk to us about how did thatevolve?
Joseph Beilein (21:07):
Yeah, when he was interviewing the story goes,
he wanted to meet with somelocal leaders who were also
either alums or had a connectionto Penn State in some way,
shape or form, and he met withTed Junker and Tom Hagen, I
think, at the Erie Club and thiswas during the interviewing
(21:28):
process and he basically said ifI come, will you?
guys help me.
And Hagen had already beeninvolved in doing some
fundraising here and Ted Junkerwas, I think, happy to help I'm
sure he had already beeninvolved as well and that was
kind of how this whole thingstarted and they introduced him
(21:48):
to people and, to Lilley credit,he followed through on all
those relationships and meetingsand things like that and he was
sort of able to build thisnetwork that grew and grew and
grew and he reconfigured the.
I can't remember the names, butit was was it did.
Was he the one that took itfrom the board of trustees to
the council of fellows?
That's correct.
Council of fellows, that'sright.
Ralph Ford (22:08):
Yep.
Joseph Beilein (22:09):
So he rebuilt that.
Yeah, a lot of the same peoplecame over, but there were new
people and maybe people whoweren't anymore.
And then and he also saw, Ithink, the talent that different
people had.
And so Tom Hagen was runningthe council of fellow.
He was like the chair, and sohe was running these campaigns
to raise huge amounts of moneyfor the time.
You know, like five, $6 million, maybe.
(22:30):
It started off as two and thenit became five.
That said, maybe we can raise10.
And that that's what he wasdoing.
And and Ted Junker was like, hewas the man on the ground
everywhere.
If you go back and look throughthe photo albums, he is in the
background of every picture orlike in the foreground, smiling
and shaking someone's hand.
Ralph Ford (22:47):
He's the ultimate connector.
Joseph Beilein (22:49):
Ultimate connector.
Yeah, and so he.
Obviously Lilley recognizedthat about him, though.
Right Like, this is how thisguy can help me, and Ted
obviously was happy to help thatway, and this is how Tom can
help me, and he was happy tohelp that way, and Susie Hurt
Hagen became a huge advocate forthe school and a huge help, and
so he just sort of kept thesepeople involved.
Ralph Ford (23:09):
He did.
And talking about Ted Junker,he was a banker, right, he was
president or regional presidentof PNC and I will tell this
story.
Just a few months before hepassed away, I was able to have
dinner with him at my house andJoe Preshak, who was from
Plastic, and they told me thestory of how Plastics came to be
(23:31):
at Behrend, which was basicallyJoe Preshak was saying I can't
find any talent here, and TedJunker said I know where we're
going to go and he connected himto John Lilley and I mean that
is truly how it started.
The idea had been floatingaround but no one could make it
happen for quite some time.
Joseph Beilein (23:46):
Yeah, that's how it started.
That's great, that's great andthat makes perfect sense.
Yeah.
Ralph Ford (23:51):
So let's talk about what were a few of the big
milestones that happened.
Joseph Beilein (24:01):
So, in terms of just the history from 80 to 2010
, I mean there's a there are alot of them, uh, as we know, I
think, uh, getting rid of mostof the trailers, not to start
with the like stuff, like that,um, engineering complex, which
is now you know, the sciencecomplex over there, was a big
deal.
Uh, the cockle building andwhich, you know, cockle and
Lilley Library was probablyincredibly modern, you know for
(24:23):
the time, and still is a nicebuilding, and so building the
buildings was a big deal.
Buying up all this land, theAthletic Center when that
finally got built, which is now,of course, the Junker Center,
and now we have a second oneright for the students.
So you have, so those are a lotof landmarks.
I also think you know, as theypassed, these different
(24:44):
enrollment numbers, I think whenLilley came in, it was around
1,200 students, maybe somethinglike that, 250, maybe juniors
and seniors, and then you get toa couple thousand within a few
years and I think by the end ofthe 90s they were, right, around
4,000.
So all those were big watershedmoments.
And then there's other ways tolook at it too.
(25:06):
I mean there's these curricularmoments too.
Right, we go from the two-yearengineering program to the
four-year engineering program,which is happening while they're
getting all of these people whoyou know helped build the
engineering complex together,the Preshacks, and you know
Fasenmayer and Zern, you knowall these folks together.
That's all happening in the midto late 80s.
(25:27):
And then I'm trying to thinkhere you have the schools right,
these curricular things.
Schools are created, schoolsare created.
Lilley was really big on andthis was sort of a fad, but not
a fad, that's the wrong word,because fads go away.
But there was a lot trendingtowards business schools in the
late eighties and so he decidedwe need, we have a business
(25:49):
program, we need to have abusiness school that's off on
its own.
So I mean there's all sorts ofthings that that you know you
could say were watershed momentsor big moments in the
development of this place.
Ralph Ford (25:58):
Well, I think that's a good summary of a number of
them In this book.
In writing it, you hired anumber of student researchers
and got them involved.
How were they involved and whatdid they find?
Joseph Beilein (26:09):
So I hired.
So, in terms of doing theresearch, I hired three students
at different points in theprocess and what I wanted them
to do, I had one of them sort ofdo two things.
First, he kind of was workingalongside me.
This is at the very beginning,so he helped me kind of figure
out the larger contours of thestory.
(26:30):
And then, towards the end ofhis time with me, I set him on
this track of tell me whatstudent life was like.
And so he did a little bit ofthat and then he graduated and
went on his way.
And then I hired a couple morestudents to carry on with that
and basically their job was tolook through the newspapers and
then anywhere else it took themto tell me what it was like to
be a student here.
(26:52):
And you know this is one of thedifficult things about writing a
book like this is you have somany different forces.
Here you have the leaders of.
The difficult things aboutwriting a book like this is you
have so many different forces.
Here you have the leaders ofthe college, you have the
partners from the community, youhave Penn State University, you
have the faculty, but it keptcoming back to me the students
are what matter here, right?
They're not only what weproduce, but they're also the
(27:13):
means of production in thisplace in a lot of ways, and the
reason why we're all here, ofproduction in this place in a
lot of ways, and the reason whywe're all here.
And so I thought we should havestudents do the research about
the students, and so they did alot of the stuff and I told them
to find what was interestingand then sort of write up how
this fits together in your ownwords, and I was hoping that.
(27:36):
I don't know why I was hopingthis, but I kind of was hoping
that it would be a morewhimsical part of the book.
But these three students keptcoming back with all these
really serious social andpolitical issues.
And it's so funny because Idon't think many of us think of
Penn State Behrend as being this, like very rabid political
campus, right, but what occurredto me and I didn't talk about
(27:57):
this book, but what occurred tois the new student newspaper
back in the day was the way inwhich people expressed their
views and they wrote back toeach other and it was almost
like twitter, uh, you know, butwhere, where people were sort of
going back and forth, you justhad to wait a week you had to
wait a week for the responseyeah, and so they weren't for
(28:17):
and it's a very Midwestern thing, right there weren't students
confronting each other on campus.
Instead, they're in their dormroom and they're writing about
it and they have their ownfriends that believe in what
they're saying, and then someoneelse would write back.
And it's not passive,aggressive, but it's also like I
don't want to get into a verbalaltercation with this person,
and so and I just see that assort of a Midwestern way I was
at the University of Missourifor graduate work and that was
(28:39):
how that happened.
A lot of times People weren'tyelling at each other in the
streets, they went back andforth in the newspaper.
So, anyway, they found thesedifferent controversies and then
they gave it to me and I waslike, oh my goodness, now I have
to try and write this up.
And so I did the best I could,sort of pulling these different
stories together.
And, yeah, so it was a powerfulmoment because my students were
(29:01):
they were much more seriousthan I thought they were and
they just they did an excellentjob sort of point out what was
important and what they thoughtwas important to the students at
the time.
Ralph Ford (29:08):
Yeah, I think it was great reading that, and it's
one of the things that surprisedme too all this discussion
about gender and race and otherthings that were happening that
you wouldn't associate with thiscampus immediately.
So, as you said, it wasn'tabout donkey basketball.
Joseph Beilein (29:21):
Yeah, right, right, right silly stuff going
on.
Ralph Ford (29:24):
Can you tell us where can people find your book?
Joseph Beilein (29:27):
Yeah, absolutely .
So.
You can find it on Amazon, butalso you could buy it directly
from Penn State University Press.
It was printed under theBehrend College imprint, which
is great.
You know we have our own, ourown book imprint.
But Penn State University Pressdid an awesome job helping us
produce the book and get it out,and you know they came up with
a lot of the cover, artwork andstuff like that, so you could
(29:49):
buy it directly from the press.
It looks great, it's an easyread, great, and that's not
because a lot of research andwork didn't go into it, it's
just.
And that's not because a lot ofresearch and work didn't go
into it, it's just no it's notthat it's simple, it's just.
Ralph Ford (30:00):
But you know, of course I have a vested interest,
absolutely.
You know, once you sit down youcan read it, and I found it
very readable.
Joseph Beilein (30:06):
Yeah, buy a copy for yourself and a hundred of
your best friends.
Ralph Ford (30:09):
There we go.
So let's switch, and you know,talk again about your teaching,
and you know how would you.
I like to ask this questionYou're like, what's your
philosophy like in teaching andyou know what are you trying to
achieve in the classroom withstudents.
Joseph Beilein (30:24):
That's a great question and, as someone who has
probably spent too much timethinking about it and you know
many of us have it's a difficultone to answer.
I want to form a connectionwith the students.
I think that that's the firstthing you have to do to get them
to learn.
So I think there has to be likea human connection there where
I know their names, we're allcomfortable speaking in the
(30:45):
classroom, all of that.
I want them to find history tobe fun and dynamic, which is a
change for a lot of them whocome out of a high school where
they've just been memorizingnames and facts and all of that
stuff.
And I want to keep it fairlysimple.
A lot of my classes are taken bystudents who are trying to
(31:07):
check a general education box.
So there's a lot of engineers,business students, science
students, nurses you know folkslike that.
So I want them to come away.
My but really my goal is if youcome away from each class
learning one thing, that's ahuge accomplishment.
And if you come away from thewhole class, as long as you go
(31:27):
into your life and you can, likeyou, remember a couple things,
you know a year down the road,two years from now down the road
.
That's that's huge for me.
So that's that's really like atits most basic level.
That's what I'm trying toachieve in the classroom with
them.
Ralph Ford (31:42):
So if I take that a step further, then what do you
want them to think about yourclass 10 years later?
So do you ever think about that, like, what do you hope they
took away as the big life lesson?
Joseph Beilein (31:51):
Yes, yes, and I have thought about it for years
now.
Not as a teacher, but Iremember when I was a student.
There was a lot of things Ilearned as an undergraduate
student that didn't click untilI was in my mid-20s, my late 20s
my 30s, you know where you'resort of like, ah, someone put
the part in the machine but itonly just now sort of clicked,
you know, into place.
(32:12):
And so I think, first off, it'sa huge accomplishment if anyone
leaves this place and five yearslater they remember my class
and remember me as a professor,five, ten years later.
I mean I think that's great.
And then I just I mean I hopethey have like a positive
feeling about it.
And, like I said, if theyremember one or two things,
that's great.
I mean I can't tell you howmany college classes I took
(32:34):
where I don't remember anything.
I don't remember theprofessor's name, I don't
remember what they look like.
You know it was just a blur andit was not because of the
extracurricular fun.
I will say, you know, it's just, there's certain things that
your mind retains and it'susually the things, the
experiences that you felt likewere fun experiences, positive
experiences, where you feltcomfortable in the classroom.
And that's why all that stuffwhich doesn't seem like it has
(32:57):
anything to do with history, Ithink is so important to
actually teaching history.
Ralph Ford (33:01):
I mean if someone remembered you five years later
and they learned a lesson, andthey will.
And, by the way, many studentshere are very they remember your
classes.
My kids went through yourclasses.
I can say that, my two sons.
You may not even know that youprobably forgot their names.
Yeah, I mean probably, butlet's talk about the history
(33:22):
program.
So you're a member of thehistory program here, faculty
member, and we have a bachelor'sdegree in history.
Why should someone come hereand study history?
Joseph Beilein (33:30):
Well, I think there's all sorts of reasons why
you might study history.
We have different spiels thatwe give at these open houses,
but for me I think it'simportant that students if
someone loves history, I seethis as an opportunity for them
to continue that education.
And then you know, when you getout of this place we as a
program are sure that you willbe prepared to do whatever you
(33:54):
really want to do.
You know that excludes, youknow, narrow sort of very
specialized fields, but we havehistory majors that are in
everything from like lawenforcement and government work
to obviously working in museumsand teaching, to selling
insurance and, you know, andworking, you know, for large
corporations.
So the way that we try andprepare our students is we want
(34:16):
to teach them some skills likewriting, speaking they can do
research, stuff like that butthat they also.
We're trying to teach them howto think, as opposed to just
sort of what to think.
Again, going back to the highschool, you're memorizing stuff
here.
We want to teach you thefundamentals of how to think,
how to have dynamicinterpersonal relations with
(34:37):
people, and I think historyteaches you how to do a lot of
that stuff.
And the biggest thing, ofcourse is we want you to be
empathetic, we want to teach youthis skill.
Empathy is like a little musclein your brain that you have to
sort of pump it up, and the waythat you pump it up is by
teaching people to walk in otherpeople's shoes, see the world
from different perspectives, andall of that.
But I always go back to if youlove history, this is your last
(34:59):
chance to learn about it,Absolutely yeah.
Ralph Ford (35:03):
Well, we are coming to the end of the interview.
Sure, I will give you the lastword.
Joseph Beilein (35:09):
There's not a ton.
Other than you know, vision andresilience was a great learning
experience for me and I thinkthat people who pick up this
book, whether they're in highered or they're interested in our
college, I think it willhopefully give them a pretty
(35:30):
accurate view of what happenedhere, and not just what happened
, but why things happened inthis place.
Ralph Ford (35:35):
Yeah, well, thank you, I appreciate it.
My guest today is Dr JoeBeilein.
You have been listening toBehrend Talks.
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