SERIES PREMIERE! 30 Minute Mensches: Michal Cotler-Wunsh, Israel’s Special Envoy for Combating Antisemitism

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Welcome, welcome, welcome to thefirst episode of our new summer
edition of Being Jewish, thatI'm calling 30 minute Mentions.
Same vibe.
Same tribe.
Shorter episodes because it's summerand I wanna hang out with my kids.
But also because I want to use theopportunity of this more concentrated
format to bring you some really uniqueand diverse humans doing fascinating

(00:27):
and important work that you don'talways get to hear about this season.
We've got Jewish animators, energyhealers, rappers, black Jews, crypto
Jews, trans Jews, Orthodox Jews,Lebanese Christians, Rwandans,
Israelis, and many, many more.
And to kick us off, I've got a realheavyweight with me for today's premier.

(00:47):
Born in Jerusalem, raised in Canada.
She's currently serving as Israel'sspecial envoy for combating antisemitism,
fighting with bigots, and educatinguseful idiots so we don't have to.
She is a former member of theKnesset, a legal scholar and
our inaugural 30 minute men.
Please welcome to theshow, Mehal Koler Munch.

(01:07):
Thank you for having me.
You are the special envoyfor combating antisemitism.
How's that going?
Because things don't lookgreat from where I'm sitting,
so I'll tell you, don't I?
You know, I get that question a lot.
You can imagine.
Of course, I was appointed,I was appointed three weeks
before October 7th, actually.
Lucky you,
you know, somebody wished me condolenceson my, uh, appointment to the role.

(01:30):
Um, and in fact, in many, many ways.
Um, the fact that this role needs toexist not only in the state of Israel,
but in about 35 countries is devastating.
Uh, and it is going in a way that actuallyfor me is a call to action every single.
Day reminding me that, hmm, about2,500 years ago or so, it was actually

(01:57):
Mortify who said to Esther that lasttime that in ancient Persia there was an
attempt to annihilate the Jewish people.
Our people.
If you will be silent now, salvationwill come to our people and you and
your father's home may disappear,and who knows if it's not for
this moment that you've arrived.
So that has been theeveryday call to action.

(02:17):
In fact, for the last 21 months,
we've talked about that on the showthat this is our Queen Esther moment.
It's clear you are stepping up into it.
I'm curious if you could take usbehind the scenes of this role.
Like what, what have you beencharged to do specifically and.
Are there deliverables?
Like do you have concretegoals and, and metrics?

(02:37):
And, and if so, what's thestrategy that you're using to
try to achieve those goals?
Antisemitism is just the manifestationof what is a raging eighth front
because we've been speaking, um,certainly in Israel about seven fronts
of war that we're waged on the stateof Israel on, and since October 7th,
2023, the eighth front of war is theunconventional war for public opinion.

(03:00):
As I call it, and I believe thatantisemitism is very much a manifestation
and a tool that eighth front.
So that would be my number onemandate to be able to identify
and combat that, making sure thatwe actually hone and harness the
International Holocaust RemembranceAlliance definition of antisemitism.
The second, no less important.

(03:23):
Sort of a part of this role is workingwith my counterparts around the world,
but also with university presidents,legislators, mayors, police chiefs,
communities around the world thatare absolutely committed to combating
all forms of hate, antisemitismincluded, but don't necessarily
understand how it is that we identify.

(03:44):
This strain of antisemitism that is,and that has proven to be anti-Zionism,
right?
And the third is actually, ironically,or not making accessible this fight or
this front of war to Israelis because.
Maybe it might not make sense to allof your listeners or viewers, but

(04:05):
Israelis actually, as we are embroiledin the seven fronts of, I'll call it
conventional war that has been ragingfor decades, are not as mindful of
this manifestation of this eighth frontof war, and it's no less important
to make accessible to Israelis as.
So I want to dig into toa couple of those things.
So let's start with what you, you raisedthis point too is working with all

(04:27):
these different leaders politically andin law enforcement and universities,
how does that process unfold?
Are you reaching out to people?
Are people reaching out to the government?
Like what does that look like?
So my first emergency trip was actually.
You know, devastatingly in the middleof our closest friend's sons, Shiva.
I left just about 10 daysafter October the seventh.

(04:50):
Yeah.
And the first emergency trip to theUnited States was actually to reach
out to the legislators, including thesecond gentleman, including all of
those that were mandated with actuallythe us um, uh, national strategy for
combating antisemitism and rolling thatout and implementing that both federally.
In the various states, and of course theuniversity presidents where it could have

(05:14):
and should have been anticipated that ifthere was not an unequivocal condemnation
of the atrocities, the war crimes, thecrimes against humanity that we witnessed
in the October 7th attack of barbarismon civilization, and it was clear.
Certainly to those of us that havebeen at the front lines of tracking the

(05:38):
mutation of antisemitism and the hijackingand weaponization of international law
and its institutions and human rights,the secular religion of our times.
For the demonization Delegitimizationapplication of double standards
towards the state of Israel.
So what happened on university campusesover the last few decades was clear

(05:58):
that if it was not addressed properlyimmediately by university presidents
with an unequivocal condemnation of theOctober 7th massacre, what we would see.
The tsunami of antisemitism,then it has been very much of a
reactive role from my perspective.
When I entered the role three weeks beforeOctober the seventh, the goal was to

(06:19):
create a national strategy for combatingantisemitism, which in Israel's case as
the nation state of the Jewish people,a prototypical indigenous people that
returned to our ancestral homeland afterthousands of years of exon persecution.
Needs to have aninternational component to it.
What you're alluding to is the fact thatIsraelis don't live in a minority as Jews.

(06:40):
They live in a majority, sothey don't walk down the street
wondering what somebody's thinkingabout them with their kippah on.
So if you could speak to, I guess, thelevel of awareness and sort of what
you've been hearing and seeing from yourfellow countrymen as this has unfolded.
Why would Israelis ever experience whatit is like to be a minority Actually.
In the relationship between Israeland global jury, that is a huge

(07:04):
component of what global jury isable to teach Israelis, right?
The understanding that wherever we live inthe world, whether it's in Argentina, in
Canada, in the United States, or anywhereelse in the world, when we are a minority,
we understand things differently as apeople, and the importance of making that
access accessible to Israelis actually.

(07:26):
Began for me, um, as somebody who grewup in Canada, you mentioned, began for me
as actually as a legislator, as a memberof Israel's Knesset, the understanding
that that is an important understandingfor Israelis when we make decisions.
For me, antisemitism, in the wordsof the late Rabbi Sacks, is the most
reliable sign of a major threat.

(07:47):
To humanity, freedom andthe dignity of difference.
We can drill down on why that is so, butfor the state of Israel, more than any
other country, the rise or tsunami or whatI'll de describe as happening now, whether
at a music festival in England or on thestreets of New York City with a mayoral
candidate that differentiates between 97.

(08:08):
Zionism and antisemitism, theunderstanding that it's the
normalization of antisemitism thatwe need to be cognizant of as a major
threat or as a reliable sign of amajor threat to freedom and humanity
and the dignity of difference.
So you mentioned, you know, currentevents kind of stuff like the,
the concert in Glassen Berry.

(08:28):
So take me through like in yourrole something like that happens.
You've also said, you know, your rolehas had to be somewhat reactionary.
What do you do when that happens?
Are you reaching out to people in the uk?
Are you trying, are you justtrying to get on the news?
Like what, what's the strategy?
The first order of business is thatthe embassy on the ground will reach
out to me and, uh, sort of not onlybe able to take the interviews that

(08:50):
are relevant with media that need tobe made aware of the, um, imperative
to not just call out what it is.
That was absolutely,uh, death call, death.
Death to the IDF is essentially notjust the call for the death of all
Israelis because there's mandatoryservice in the IDF, the Israel Defense

(09:12):
Forces, but of course mainstream'santisemitism around the world.
And that is in fact whathas happened, um, since
Mical.
I wanna drill down on.
The death, death to the IDF thing,because obviously there are some people
who know full well what they're doing.
But I think a lot of people, the problemis that they think of the IDF essentially,

(09:36):
as you and I would think of Nazis, they'vebeen taught that this is a supremacist,
murderous, genocidal, you know, villain.
And so in, in their mindsthey're chanting, you know,
death to the Nazis, which.
I can understand ifthat's your understanding.
I also would say, you know, noone ever has chanted death to
anybody at a music festival before.

(09:57):
So you've got the double standardalready is built in there.
That's, no one would ever do that toanybody in any other circumstance ever.
But how, how do we sort of reconcilethat misunderstanding and instead of
making everybody there feel like wethink you're all anti-Semitic, hateful.

(10:17):
Villains that we're missing each other.
Like there's a missing piece of thisconnection happening where if these
people understood the issue, they mightgo, oh, I see why I shouldn't be chanting
that, or, I see what I'm not gettinghere, or, or whatever the case may be.
So you're a hundred percent right.
Here's the devastating thing,Johnna, if in fact, I'm.
That it's human rights, the secularreligion of our times that has

(10:41):
been hijacked and appropriated.
And you understand that antisemitism hasactually, um, mutated creating new viral
strains over the thousands of years ofits existence by latching onto the guiding
social construct of each time, right?
Religion.
Science and the secular religion ofour times, human rights, if I'm right,

(11:02):
that in fact it is human rights thathave been hijacked and appropriated
in the institutions of the UN andits agencies and its principles
so that, I'll give an example.
After a series of conventional warsfrom 1948, the moment of our return to
ancestral homeland, if you will, to 1973.
Series of conventional wars openlydeclared with intent to annihilate

(11:24):
the state of Israel in 1975.
The UN itself, this, um, sort ofinstitution created to uphold,
promote, and protect an internationalrules-based order post World War ii.
And you set a key word equallyand consistently to all because
double standards in the applicationof every, any principle of any

(11:45):
rule, basically renders it.
Useless.
The paper that it's written onis not worth anything, right?
The understanding that from1975 on what we have seen is the
hijacking and weaponization of thatinternational rules based order of
its institutions of its principles.
So I begin with 1975,the Zionism is racism.

(12:06):
UN resolution passed in the un.
Soviet propaganda was alive and well,well before that passed in the un
Alive and well in the name of 2025.
Progress on every university campusonline on the streets absolutely
makes your understanding of whatit is that those people chanting.

(12:27):
Death.
Death to the IDF, assumingthat the state of Israel.
It's not only based on this, Zionism isracism, but then in a post 2001 Durban
Conference against racism, Durban,South Africa, this conference, UN
Conference against racism, that turnsinto an anti-Semitic fest that then pos.
The state of Israel is an apartheid state,and in the most Orwellian inversion of

(12:49):
fact and law and morality, the accusationof the state of Israel of genocide.
In the aftermath of the October sevenmassacre, you have to be very clear.
Genocide termed by Rafael Lemkin,whose entire family was annihilated in
Auschwitz to describe the atrocities.
Of the Holocaust.
Too terrible to imagine, but nottoo terrible to have happened.

(13:11):
Genocide alongside crimes Againsthumanity coined and then becoming
the infrastructure for theconvention, for the prevention and
punishment of the crime of genocide.
Used to accuse the state ofIsrael, ceding it on the dock of
the accused, if you will, in theinternational court of justice.
Dreyfus seated on the dock of theaccused, accusing it of genocide, the

(13:32):
worst crime you could possibly commit.
Even as the state of Israel, the Jewamong nations intended to be an equal
member in the family of nations,but barred from being precisely
that after decades of demonization,delegitimization application of double
standards by those very institutions.
Then you can understand why the crowdswould not only listen to but echo

(13:55):
the chant of death, death to the IDF.
We have to be clear.
The Israel Defense Force, not the Israelattack force, the Israel Defense Force,
that is actually necessary becausethere we live in, if you just zoom out
for a moment, a geography of neighborsthat are intent to annihilate the state
of Israel, including the genocidal.

(14:16):
Criminal Islamic regime in Iran andall of its terror proxies over the
last 21 months, as we have clearlyseen impoverishing, the people of Iran
for 46 years to build a nuclear andballistic capabilities that we have
just experienced in the last 12 days.
And of course since October 7th in itsring of fire that it builds around Israel.
But what we have to make veryclear, and for me that's the most

(14:39):
important, is that this is notjust about the Jewish nation state.
If I am right that the InternationalRules-Based Order and the human rights
infrastructure, including all of theorganization's, human rights, Watts
and Amnesty, and many others that weremandated and entrusted to uphold, promote,
and protect that international rules-basedorder equally and consistently.

(15:02):
If that infrastructurecollapses, it'll fail to protect
everybody.
What can realistically bedone when you've got these.
Trusted international pillars ofthe, of the, you know, the, the
rule of order, uh, that have been,you know, infected from within.

(15:23):
And we as Jews are this very small voice.
It sounds like we're going, Hey,everybody's an antisemite, which is
very easy to be like, that's ridiculous.
Is the answer to try to heal thevirus is the answer to get new
institutions and, and abandon shipon the, on the broken ones, what?
What do you think can actually be done?

(15:43):
I think that there's a combinationof efforts that need to be made,
and the first thing that I wanna sayto anybody who is watching us is.
You are all boots on theground of this eighth front.
What I have just described is aneighth front of war in which every
single individual has a role toplay, whether it's at work, whether
it's at home, whether it's ineducational institutions, in academia,

(16:05):
in legislature, wherever it is.
The understanding that, and I haveto be very sort of open about this.
2025 is not 1945.
It's possibly the first time inthousands of years of Jewish history
that we can actually make good onGolden Mairs, understanding that the

(16:26):
world loves us when we're to be pitied.
The world hates a Jew who hits back.
The state of Israel is the Jewthat can hit back after thousands
of years of Jewish history.
But that means we have an additional role.
To play now that we can hitback, and there's only about 16
million of us in the entire world.
It's not that many, but we havefriends and we have allies that

(16:50):
understand that this is not justabout us, have to be very clear as
all other forms of hatred and bigotry.
Antisemitism is not a problem of Jews.
It's a problem of antisemites andof the places and spaces that allow
them to fester, to spread, to infectwith this lethal ever mutating hate.

(17:10):
And everywhere that I've been in these21 months and I'm being around the
world, Joan, I have to tell you there is.
A moderate majority public outthere that understands that
something has gone very wrong.
If the Human Rights Council inthe UN is populated with the most
egregious violators of human rights.

(17:32):
By the way, the Islamic regime in Iranincluded then that is not about us.
But what I often say is we are at thismoment of history where, you know, I
spoke about the three Ds demonization.
Delegitimization, theapplication of double standards.
That is the mechanism that enablesthe mutation of antisemitism.
That's a part of the InternationalHolocaust Remembrance Alliance definition.

(17:53):
But I often speak of the three Rs.
Because in 2025, that is not 1945.
I don't want hate defining me.
I don't want in the words of the, youknow, late rabbi Soic, only the destiny
of fate, defining who we are as a people.
It's the destiny.
It's the covenant ofdestiny that can define us.
And for that, I speak about thethree Rs and they are to remember,

(18:17):
and to reclaim and to renew.
And that's not just about Jews.
To remember the Jewish story is acritical piece that I think that
perhaps we have forgotten or wetook for granted that we remember.
Yeah.
Remembering the Jewish story is going tobe critical to the day after, if you will,
and how it is that we rise from what itis that we've experienced in these 21.

(18:41):
And God willing with the return of the 50human beings that continue to be held in
the terror tunnels and dungeons of Hamas.
But remembering the Jewish storymeans that we say, we know that
antisemitism didn't begin in1933 and didn't die in Auschwitz.
But neither does the Jewish story.
We remember the Jewish story.
We started our conversation with Esther.

(19:02):
That's about 2,500 years ago or so.
Yeah.
Remembering our story is something thatI think that we have an opportunity
to do and to retell our story once weremember it, to reclaim what it is that's
been appropriated, not just from us.
I mentioned the word indigeneity.
I mentioned the word Zionist.
Look, I speak about this often.
You know, when I say anti-Zionismis the new, modern, mainstream

(19:25):
strain of anti-Semitism.
Zionism didn't sort of, youknow, fall from the sky.
Zionism is anchored in thousandsof years of yearning and prayer
and longing to return to.
Zion, the majority of Jews aroundthe world, self-identifying Zionists
and many non-Jews around the worldwho believe in Israel's right
to exist, self-identify Zionist.

(19:47):
That means that the ability to reclaimwhat's being appropriated and also
what's being appropriated in terms ofthat international rules based order
in Cuban rights, because genocide.
Has meaning.
I said that definition was appropriated,including by Amnesty International.
Literally redefining it on, Idon't know, page 101, I believe,

(20:07):
of about a 300 page report.
Literally redefining and so doesracism, but Zionism is equated to
and so does apartheid, and Israel hasits problems, but I'm old enough to.
Precisely what apartheid was, andIsrael is not an apartheid state.
So Michel, what I wanna do now is I wantto, I want to leave our audience with some

(20:27):
takeaways that they can use and hold onto.
So I'm gonna give you a couple ofthese sort of basic common things that
I hear and see and have you help me.
And help our audience knowhow to respond to them.
The first one, and, and somethingyou said earlier made me think of it
is, is the notion that, of course,antisemitism is rising right now.

(20:49):
It, the IDF is, is, you know, murderingthousands of innocent people and once that
goes away, the antisemitism is gonna goaway, but it makes sense that it would
be happening because of what's going on.
How do you respond to that?
The IDF is defending the state of Israel.
What is murdering thosethousands of people?
If there are thousands of peoplebeing murdered that are in fact
innocent, and we don't know thatbecause we have Hamas evidence.

(21:12):
That's the Gaza Health Ministry, that'sHamas, that's akin to quoting Nazi
Germany and the statistics that theymay have published during World War ii.
But the understanding that the IDF.
Is actually doing everything thatit can to mitigate the damage
to innocent civilians as urbanwar specialists will tell us.
And the only, um, entities that weshould be holding to account is actually

(21:35):
the genocidal to organization, Hamasincluded, but also the Houthis, also the
Hezbollah, all proxies of the Islamicregime in Iran that intentionally embedded
amongst civilians for whom human tragedy.
Is the strategy that builthundreds of kilometers of terror,
tunnels and dungeons below.

(21:57):
Hospitals, schools, homes, mosques withinternational humanitarian aid, knowing
precisely that they were identifyingwhere international laws of war would
actually leave the state of Israel thatrespects the laws of war at a complete
loss with being able to defend its owncivilians as they perpetrated, not only
October the seventh, but the 21 months.

(22:18):
Of continued attacks, and very few peoplespeak about the thousands of rockets,
ballistic missiles, UAVs that haveintentionally targeted Israel's civilians.
Even though what you just said might,uh, make sense to me, in my brain, in
my heart, I, I just can't ignore thehorrible images that I'm seeing, and
it seems like it's Israel's fault.

(22:40):
And so, of course.
I'm mad at Israel, so I, I canbe mad at Jews wherever I live.
That in and of itself is antisemitism.
Right?
The fact that there is a Jew living in, Idon't know, Massachusetts or Montreal or
Sydney, Australia, that is being targetedfor their identity because let's say that
Israel is doing what it is accused ofdoing, what does that have anything to

(23:01):
do with that Jew living across the ocean?
Absolutely nothing.
That is something that wehave to be very clear on.
There is never.
Ever a justification that would be akin toattacking somebody who moved to the United
States from France because of somethingthat France is doing that never happens.
And you said before that doublestandard is something that we have
to be able to call out, meaningincluding to university presidents?

(23:24):
That I would say, I don't know ifyou remember, but that hearing in,
uh, Congress, of course, where itdepended on context, if, if calling
for the genocide of Jews violated,uh, codes of conduct to university.
Would it depend on context if it was anyother minority group for whom we called
for the genocide of the answer is no.

(23:46):
Right?
So it is in this case now.
The tragedy, the human tragedy, that thosethat genuinely care for Palestinians.
And by the way, I have to say thatthe authenticity of the concern
seems to fade every time thatthere is footage of hundreds and
thousands of hours of the same.
Hamas, a genocidal tearorganization again.

(24:09):
For whom human tragedy is the strategythat use their own people as human
shields, as sacrifices, as trading cards.
The understanding that if you carefor human rights of Palestinians,
you would be protesting to free Gaza.
From Hamas, and if you care for thepeople of Lebanon, you would be protesting

(24:29):
to free Lebanon from the Hezbollah.
And if you cared for the people ofYemen, you would be protesting to
free Yemen from the Houthis and ifyou cared for the people of Iran.
And on this, we have to be soclear because the people of Iran
have risen up again and again withunbelievable courage to the Islamic.
Regime in Iran that does the verysame things as we speak now, arresting

(24:53):
and executing the people of Iran.
Now, if we take this back just about80 years, and we say surely there were
innocent Germans that were killed, butdid that mean that the allies could
let the Nazis appease the Nazis andallow them to continue taking over
the world with a genocidal ideology?
If that is what we aresaying, then we are.

(25:15):
You know, to quote Churchill, we havethe choice between dishonor and war.
We may choose dishonor, but wewill have war because genocidal
terror can't be appeased.
And that is something thatwe have to be very clear on,
including on mainstream media.
That then on, you know, the front pageof the New York Times publishes not
11 days after October the seventh.

(25:35):
What Hamas has actually given them as.
Data that the state of Israelallegedly bombs a hospital.
Only two weeks later say, oops,that was an errant rocket from
Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
Yet another proxy of thecriminal Islamic regime in Iran.
We live in a social media era, theway that we consume information.

(25:57):
Has to radically change because the waythat it comes to us has radically changed.
Meaning there are really negativeplayers that are utilizing social media
to do precisely what social media does.
We all understand the algorithm.
It's not a a boogie and it's a businessmodel, polarizing and fragment.
We know that Iran, we know that China,we know that Russia, and we know that.

(26:22):
You know, the understanding of using thatalgorithm to actually disseminate complete
disinformation and misinformation.
And by the time, if in the pastwe used to say that a lie makes
its way around the world beforethe truth straps its boots on.
That was well before social media,digital spaces, and certainly ai.
We are reaching the end of our timetogether, so I would love for you to

(26:45):
leave us with some silver lining, some,some data or observation, something that
gives you hope in this never ending fight.
You know, I say very often hope iswhat carried the Jewish people for
thousands of years of our existence.
Hope is our national anthem, Hatikvaand Hope is what carries us every
single day as we fight for ourexistence here and around the world.

(27:06):
But you know, the late Rabbi Sacksdifferentiated between hope and
optimism, and he said the following,he said, optimism is the belief
that everything will be okay.
Hope is the belief thattogether we can make it.
Okay.
So in that sense, optimismis a very passive virtue and
hope is a very active one.
And it takes not very much courageto be an optimist, but a great
deal of courage to have hope.

(27:28):
And I have met Jonah over the last21 months and way before that.
Not only here in Israel, thisincredible generation of heroes
that are not only willing to takeaction but are doing so with courage,
knowing that courage is contagious.
But I have met their counterpartsaround the world and that gives me.

(27:49):
A great deal of hope, whether they are inthe trenches at the university campuses or
on the streets or online or right here inIsrael on the other seven fronts of war.
I have a great deal of hopefor our people, and I know that
we have survived precisely.
These kinds of challenges without whatwe have today, which is sovereignty,

(28:10):
which is a state of Israel, which is anIDF, in which 45% of us live and which
the rest of us live in the rest of theworld in relative safety and security.
With the ability to speak up andto stand up and to fight back and
to hold our heads up high and knowthat HAI, that we will prevail.
Michal, thank you so much for thetireless work you do and for being here

(28:34):
with me today to kick off our series.
It's really, it's been a,a privilege and a pleasure.
Thank you very much for the opportunity.
Alright.
She's a mensch.
It's been 30 minutes.
I'm Jonah Platt.
I'll see you Allall next time.

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SERIES PREMIERE! 30 Minute Mensches: Michal Cotler-Wunsh, Israel’s Special Envoy for Combating Antisemitism

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