March 21, 2023 • 26 mins
Men are often "tough" customers when it comes to new options in the world of health and wellness. That's a trend that was not lost on Robin Daly when he began digging into the world of integrative and complementary medicine for his daughter. It's a trend he wants to change.
Men NEED options for their health as much as women, but they are often left out or overlooked, making it difficult for them to do what's best for themselves. There is a vulnerability that needs to be exposed for men to help them know their health matters too.
Join me today as Robin and I talk about
- why men are less likely to seek complementary care options for their health
- how men can be better engaged to seek integrative therapy options in a diagnosis
- where men can go to learn more and be empowered to make strong, personal decisions for their health
- and so much more
Connect with Robin at Yes To Life:
https://yestolife.org.uk
Suggested Resource Links:
- BOOK: The Cancer Revolution
- Yes To Life - Resources page
- Yes To Life - Services page
- Yes To Life - Help Line
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ivelisse Page (00:06):
Hi, I'm Ivelisse Page and thanks for listening to
the Believe Big podcast, theshow where we take a deep dive
into your healing with healthexperts, integrative
practitioners, biblical faithleaders, and cancer thrivers
from around the globe.
(00:34):
Welcome to today's episode onthe Believe Big podcast.
My name is Ivelisse Page andit's an honor to spend this time
with you.
Today, we are tackling animportant issue that typically
affects men.
It's how to get them involvedwith integrative and
complimentary medicine.
My guest today, Robin Daly, hasfound that in the 16 plus years
(00:56):
of developing Yes To Life, thatmen may do outside of the box
treatments like hypothermia orIV vitamin C, and even turn up
at a conference.
But if you put an event on themind body relationship, you'll
be lucky if one man shows up.
He's here today to help uschange this.
Robin Daly is the founder andchairman of Yes To Life in
(01:21):
response to the immensedifficulties he faced in finding
authentic, appropriate andavailable complimentary and
lifestyle treatments for hisdaughter when she was facing
cancer for the third time at 22years old?
Yes To Life was established in2005 as the first charity
offering direct support toanyone with cancer in the UK,
(01:44):
looking for ways to help theirown recovery.
They have a helpline service,offer financial assistance and
discounts to those with cancerin the UK.
They hold regular seminars andconferences.
They have a radio show andpodcast and publish a book
called The Cancer Revolution incollaboration with Patricia
Pete, and so much more.
(02:07):
So I am so excited.
Welcome Robin to the show.
Robin Daly (02:10):
Hello, Ivelisse.
A real pleasure.
Thanks so much for inviting meon.
Ivelisse Page (02:14):
It's so great to see you and to have you on.
our listeners are alwaysinterested in discovering what
our guest favorite health tipis, and I know you have many,
but can you just share one withus?
Robin Daly (02:24):
All right.
Okay.
I think my favorite health tipis get educated.
And I say this because it'swhat's happened to me through
the course of running Yes ToLife.
I've always been healthconscious, always gone for a
good diet, sort of whole food,good diet all my life.
But, actually it wasn't until Igot to running Yes To Life, I
started to really learn a lotmore about what good food's all
(02:48):
about and the challenge ofbuying good food has got great
and greater as green washingovertaken us.
And you really do need to knowwhat you're looking for in a
shop if you wanna buy somethingwhich is actually good food.
But further than that when Istarted out, I wasn't really the
slightest bit concerned what wasunderneath the basin in the
bathroom, in that cupboard,where you keep all your cleaning
stuff or underneath the sink inthe kitchen.
(03:10):
I just thought it was neitherhere nor there.
But now the stuff I used to usethen I wouldn't touch it with a
barge pole.
I've completely changed myrelationship to all the products
that are around my home that Ilive with.
And, I just got educatedbasically.
I talked to so many people whoare actually know about these
subjects.
In the end you can't ignore itYou have to change.
We never like to change, but inthe end, enough education, bites
(03:34):
home
Ivelisse Page (03:35):
Yes.
Knowledge is power and you alldo such a great job at educating
people and letting them know.
But you mentioned a word or aterm that some of our listeners
may not be familiar with, and Iwould love for you just to
briefly explain what is greenwashing?
Robin Daly (03:51):
As the popularity of healthy products has gone up and
the market for them has gotbigger, of course, the key
players who've been busy sellingabsolute junk think they're
missing out on something.
And so there's inevitably adrive to make a poor food look
good by putting the rightpicture on the right words, that
kind of thing.
(04:11):
And really they need to havelittle relationship really to
what's going on in the factoryfarm.
You could put a few lovelypictures of fields and cows and
things, butterflies and try andeven some rather healthy looking
logos that are not genuine logosof anything like the organic
society.
That's what I call greenwashing.
It's just basically trying tomake un-wholesome things look
(04:33):
appetizing to people who careabout getting good food.
Ivelisse Page (04:36):
Yes.
Just like the cigarette industryused to have like cartoons and
all of these pictures to entice
Robin Daly (04:42):
Exactly.
Ivelisse Page (04:42):
Younger generation to smoke.
So let's get into our topictoday.
And I'd love to get your insightand input as a man who really
appreciates integrative medicineand all that it has to offer to
patients.
But why do you think men areless likely to seek out
complimentary therapies comparedto women?
Robin Daly (05:02):
Right, well, I think it's a conditioning thing.
I mean, quite obviously, menneed care and have their
vulnerabilities just as womendo.
There's no difference reallyfrom that point of view.
But the conditioning is verydifferent and the expectations
on a man, almost from whenthey're a kid of come on, put
yourself together.
Don't cry.
That kind of macho thing isbrought in incredibly early,
(05:24):
very often.
Not always, but very often.
And, I think right across thesociety, there's a kind of
expectation that men don't dothis stuff.
And the idea that somebody who'sfacing a life-threatening
illness like cancer, doesn'tneed as much support as a man
need as much support as a womanis to me, it's ridiculous.
They clearly do.
(05:45):
But I think they don't feel ableto ask and they don't, there's
very often a rather femininevibe around complementary
alternative medicine,integrative medicine as well,
because that's where the womengo.
It's not the women's fault, butit's simply that the women are
attracted there and men, I thinkfeel a bit excluded from that
and they sort of leave it aloneand let them get on with it.
(06:07):
And men are taught to rely onusing their intellect to look
up, research some really goodstuff to do and all that, which
is great.
Of course there's nothing wrongwith that, but this other whole
side of their psychological andemotional life gets ignored in
that.
And they tough it out throughcancer, which is hard for
heaven's sake, why?
(06:27):
I went to a conference, whichwas on complimentary medicine,
and I was sitting in this largehall, I mean, there must have
been 150 people in there, Ithink something like that, maybe
200.
And after a little while, I sortof suddenly struck me.
Now wait a minute.
There aren't any men here.
And there was one other manother than me.
He was the person on the stagespeaking and everybody else was
(06:49):
a woman.
I was like, whoa, this isridiculous.
And I think it, frankly, it istragic on two sides.
One is the side of receivingthat I've already described is
that, yeah, men need caring for,just like women need caring for
when they're up against it.
No doubt about it in my mind.
But on the other side, men makesuch great carers, actually
engaging in complimentarymedicine.
(07:10):
They don't do that either verymuch, they stay away from both
sides of it.
And I think it's a tragedybecause men of course are just
as caring as women and they havean excellent way of delivering
complimentary medicine, forexample, in a very caring way.
And of course, men and women arenot the same, so there is a
different energy to it as well.
And I've been running Yes ToLife for nearly two decades now
(07:31):
and I love the women who workwith us to bits.
But it's been so difficult toget any men to join me,
honestly.
We have a man who's an executivedirector at the moment, and
that's a first.
But still by far the majority ofthe people working in the
charity are women and as I said,I love them to bits they're
fantastic.
They're dedicated, they're doinggreat stuff.
But I'd like some men as well,please.
(07:52):
Yes.
Is anybody listening?
Ivelisse Page (07:55):
Yes.
You share that genuine strengthand independence are about the
willingness to be vulnerable andselling themselves short to
capitalizing on all thatintegrative medicine has to
offer.
Can you expand on that a littlebit?
Robin Daly (08:10):
Yeah, if somebody calls our helpline, the the
first thing that to be concernedabout is the state of mind of
the person.
If somebody calls up thehelpline and they're feeling
hopeless, that's a terriblething.
They're in no situation to thinkabout deciding anything from
that place because they make apoor decision about their own
future, their own wellbeing.
The state of mind is the is thestarting point, it's the
(08:31):
baseline.
All the really key sort of areasthat people think about in
lifestyle medicine, you where Iexercise and diet and all this
stuff, they'll come next.
Thereafter, if the will to liveis in good shape and the person
is not feeling hopeless, even ifthey're facing an incredibly
difficult situation.
We don't know what's gonnahappen here.
(08:52):
There are no certainties inlife.
I've been told I've got sixmonths solid.
But they could be wrong.
If they're in that place,they're good to go, and then you
can get on with all thepractical stuff.
But if they're not, then there'sno point in starting any other
stuff.
It's almost doomed to failure,as far as I'm concerned.
You've got to have the state ofmind right, and that is a subtle
(09:12):
thing because apart fromanything else before someone is
faced with their diagnosis likecancer, sometimes they may not
realize it, but their will tolive is not very strong.
Some people are actually a bitambivalent about even being
here.
So along comes cancer and whoa,you are not really in a position
to survive cancer.
(09:32):
If you're ambivalent aboutwhether you even want to, you
might be looking at it as aneasy way out.
these psychological andemotional issues really have to
be addressed and quite apartfrom that, what I've described,
which is like where you startout from, of course,
unbelievably challenging journeymany people have of going
through cancer, and there arelots of times when the
(09:53):
psychological emotionalpressures, and spiritual
pressures are huge.
And to think that people can getthrough all that without any
help is well, they might, but, Idon't think they should have to,
that's what I'm saying.
They should feel it's just asavailable to them as to anybody
else.
Ivelisse Page (10:08):
Yes.
And so in, in your experience,what ways have you found that
was helpful in engaging menmore?
What are some ways that we allcould engage more on this side
of healing?
Robin Daly (10:20):
This is such a hard one.
Honestly, we're thinking aboutthis a lot of the time.
And it is so difficult.
I do feel there is a virtue inhaving events which are for men
though, because of the thing Ispoke about earlier.
There's a feeling about thewhole arena of integrated
medicine being for women.
And therefore if you put onsomething special for the men,
at least they're gonna feellike, okay, it's just some other
(10:40):
guy's gonna be there.
And, if that's a way of gettingthem in the door and then later
on they're much freer and easyabout it, then let's do it.
But, that's really the primething I've come up with in all
these years is that, you mustcater particularly for men and
know that they feel excluded ina certain kind of way, and
they're not likely to comeforward unless you make a nice,
comfortable space that lookslike they might fit in.
(11:03):
The other side of it, I suppose,is if they're coming to an event
which involves somebody who'sspeaking, leading it in some
way, then you look for a figurewho men will find a good
figurehead and somebody who'sinspirational in some way.
And, somebody obviously whothemselves is not afraid of
moving outta the box of kind ofsharing information and all the
(11:24):
rest of it, but is wants toengage with what people really
get to know them, get to hearabout, what they're struggling
with all the rest of it.
And talk about ways in whichintegrative medicine can really
help them and just understandthe men's point of view, if you
like.
Yeah, it's tricky, it's no magicfixes.
I haven't come up with anything,which is oh, I'll just do this,
and then it'll turn up.
Ivelisse Page (11:44):
Yes.
How can we change the way wetalk about it so that you think
it would resonate more with men?
Robin Daly (11:50):
I think you know what we're doing, which is
directly addressing the subjectis good.
It hasn't been talked about muchin the past.
I mean, I've written somearticles about it, but it's not
something you come acrossanywhere mentioned.
But it's so obvious it isn'ttrue, that there aren't any men.
It's just absolutely obvious.
Things are going in the rightdirection.
There's no doubt about it.
I say I've been doing this for20 years.
(12:10):
In that time things have changedquite a lot.
Twenty years ago men didn't knowthey had a prostate and they
certainly wouldn't have talkedabout it if they did.
Now it's you can talk about thatstuff, of course, yeah, I've got
a diagnosis of prostate cancer.
Nobody minds that anymore, and Ihave to say more men do turn up
at things.
We do keep a track of thesethings and if you've got 10% of
(12:30):
men, you're doing really well.
In some years going by we havehad getting towards a third
occasionally.
Definitely things are moving inthat direction, which is very
good.
So we must be doing somethingright.
I hope so.
But, I think, in the main, Ithink the change is a societal
one is that men are feeling moreable to talk about things now.
They've been encouraged to in amultitude of different ways.
(12:52):
Having a prince standing up andtalking about mental health and
things like that actually doeshelp.
It makes people feel like it'sactually okay to share about
this stuff.
This sort of idea that you haveto be a castle standing on your
own and all that stuff.
It's good in principle in someways that you can stand alone
and when you need to and all therest of it.
But as a way to be, which isisolated, it's terrible.
(13:15):
So I think yeah, society ismaking much more room for men to
have that kind of vulnerability,which I'm very happy about.
I mean, it's certainly, nothinglike as abusive as it was when I
was young.
I mean, men's society when I wasyoung was just a hundred percent
abusive as far as I wasconcerned.
It was a nightmare.
All the stuff that was men onlywas like, oh no, please.
(13:36):
I just did not wanna be anythingto do with it.
But, there is the cultural rootslist are really deep.
It is just it's a brutalconditioning that the world has
for men and, I think it's veryunfortunate.
And, what do you do about that.
It happens in business, the samestaff.
It happens in sport.
It's just coming out in thiscountry, just how abusive the
(13:59):
fire service, the police, thefootball associations, rugby,
all sorts of things are beingsuddenly revealed to be abusive.
What a surprise.
Yeah.
They all are.
All the culture is built on thisabuse and the thing that's
bringing it out, I think is thefact the women are getting
involved in this and they'rehaving a horrible time.
(14:20):
And so it's finally making itonto the news.
And, and so the things gettinguncovered, the, I think this is
going to be fabulous news formen.
It seems like the news iswanting to stop women being
abused in that way, but it'llalso let the majority of men who
would much rather not be engagedin any of that kind of stuff,
off the hook.
No longer is it reasonable thatthis stuff goes on in their
(14:44):
place of work or wherever it is.
And so they don't allow itanymore.
They actually say, oh no, we'renot gonna have that here.
This guy who's running thisabusive thing, he needs to go.
And, when that happens, I thinkthe culture of men will change
big time.
It'll really ease off and theability for men to be
vulnerable, I mean, you can't bevulnerable in the face of abuse.
(15:07):
That's all there is to it.
It's just common sense.
You look after number one.
So I think that's where it comesfrom, this lack of vulnerability
in men.
It's that kind of deep,thousands of years cultural
conditioning.
And yeah, and the sooner we getrid of it, the better.
Ivelisse Page (15:19):
I think we, we need strong men leaders that
have the ability to, like youwere saying, to encourage
others, whether they're speakingat conferences or within their
own families.
I know even in our home, myhusband does an incredible job
of letting our kids know that,it's not just about their
physical bodies that needtending to, it's their
spiritual, their mental andemotional and they rally
(15:42):
together and talk about thingsopenly and honestly.
And, we need more of that.
When they were little, he wasthe one that actually would put
together their homeopathicremedy.
So it wasn't always me.
They're like, dad, my throat'shurting.
And he's like, okay, let me gocreate you your little health
bomb.
And they loved it.
And so he took an active roleeven when they were young about
(16:03):
taking care of themselves andlooking out for things and not
ignoring them.
And which leads me to the nextquestion, why do you think men
wait so long to get the helpthat they need?
Robin Daly (16:14):
I think it is that thing, you're absolutely right.
If you just look at the basicrelationship between men and
their primary care provider, youthe GP in this country.
They'll leave it till it's toolate usually before they go to
the GP.
They get diagnosed with cancertoo late, for example.
But everything basically willleave it too late.
And, I do think it's all partand parcel of the same thing
about feeling you have to standalone and look after yourself
(16:37):
and, and that sort of stuff issomehow weak.
I think it's seen as weak.
What you just said, then youtalk about strong leaders where
you see, I think there's anentirely upside down view in the
world of what a strong leaderlooks like.
They seem to get voted in allthe time, these strong leaders,
but they're the weakest of all,unfortunately.
And the fact they're so weakmeans they have to bully
(16:57):
everybody.
That's what they do.
Cause they're completely weak.
And, the strength that we'relooking for is a strength to be
vulnerable and real and, and toreally interact with people in a
real way.
And that's quite a differentthing all together.
And unfortunately we have fartoo few examples of people like
that in leadership positions,cuz the other guys desperately
(17:20):
want to get there.
They take them all theleadership positions and then
sort of,"macho" it out with eachother.
And, at our expense, we pay theprice for them doing this stuff,
either fighting their wars or,making them rich or whatever it
is.
And, so I absolutely agree withyou.
We need some good, strongleaders, but by that, yeah,
they're good examples of warmthand humanity and empathy.
Ivelisse Page (17:43):
Yeah.
And I believe it, it starts inour home, and that's an easy way
to, to start.
We may not have control of whatis shared outside of it, but, we
can play an active role to passit on to our kids of what that
means and to our communities andour neighborhoods with our
neighbors.
And so I feel like that's couldbe an easy role for all of us to
(18:05):
step into.
What advice do you have for menwho may be skeptical about
integrative medicine and unsureof where to start?
Robin Daly (18:14):
Okay.
Well it, it is fair enough theskepticism about integrative
medicine for anybody who'scoming at it from nice sort of
dry scientific view, it seems ohyeah, all the sciences with the
mainstream medicine, and this isall sitting outside it.
That certainly used to be thecase, but it, I wanna say
flatly, it isn't true anymore,right?
There's good evidence behind anawful lot of integrated
(18:36):
medicine.
And there's good evidence notonly for it in a kind of
standalone capacity to help inthe myriad of different ways,
but also in its capacity to helpwith mainstream medicine,
extraordinarily important.
You are missing a trick if youthink that's all sort of woowoo
and you're going to stick withthe mainstream.
The two things are actuallymoving together at last and I
mean one of the best examplesthat's come up recently is that
(18:59):
of course immunotherapy is oneof the big success stories in
mainstream medicine formelanoma, which has had nothing
good in the way of treatmentforever.
It's actually quite successful,but its success is very largely
dependent on the state of yourmicrobiome.
If you have a poor microbiome,it's quite likely to fail
completely.
(19:20):
So the two things have to gohand in hand.
If you do one without the other,it's it, it is like roulette.
You basically would be mad notto do everything you can to
ensure your microbiome in asgood as state as possible
before, during, and afterimmunotherapy, if you wanna
live.
So that to me is marvelous cuzof course the microbiome, this
is definitely the world ofintegrative medicine.
(19:41):
That's not what you think ofthat's coming from your
hospital.
But, that piece of science isjust like fabulous for
demonstrating just how importantit can be, not to just stick
with drugs, for example.
There's much more to health thandrugs.
Ivelisse Page (19:57):
Yes.
I completely agree.
What are some success storiesthat you can share of men who
have incorporated that you'veworked with
Robin Daly (20:05):
Yes,.
I'm glad to say we have workedwith men and, some exceptional
men too.
These are remarkable charactersquite often who do actually turn
up at our door.
And, they use a great deal ofinitiative.
I mean, it seems to be naturallymeant to do this sort of massive
research project.
I've done it myself, did it withmy daughter.
And, that can be veryproductive.
(20:25):
You can get people educated veryquickly, get an enormous amount
of information at theirfingertips.
But if they're prepared to addto that a bit more exploration
into the world, other ways thatthey can help themselves and not
just, the more practical ones ifyou like that's when the magic
starts to happen.
And quite often, I mean, you'llhave had this experience that
(20:47):
I've talked to many people whotell me that actually cancer's
the best thing that everhappened to them.
Ridiculous sounding statement,but they actually mean it.
And the reason they mean it'scause their life transformed
because they got cancer.
And I can say that, not cuz Igot cancer, but cause my
daughter got cancer, my lifetransformed.
So that was actually the bestthing that ever happened to me.
(21:08):
For a man that happens to, theydo come out the other side, a
remarkable person who has a hugeamount to offer.
This is the thing, is not onlydo they transform their own
lives, have a much better lifeafter than they had before, but
also they're like a beacon forother men, basically.
They actually show the way.
And, we need that.
I love those people.
(21:29):
They're not enough of themaround, but yeah, they're great.
Ivelisse Page (21:32):
Yeah.
So when someone comes to Yes ToLife, what would you say are the
top things, looking back withwhat you went through with your
daughter, all the patients thatyou work with, what would be
your top three things that youwould hope that every man and
woman would do for their healthonce they're diagnosed?
Robin Daly (21:50):
Okay.
We've been through sort of thethree stages during the course
of Yes To Life.
When we started out, nearlyeverybody who came to us arrived
at our door after they'd beenradiated to death at as much
chemo as they were allowed tohave been kicked out and told
well you're gonna die.
And they were hoping thatintegrative medicine was gonna
help them.
Some of them it did help.
(22:11):
It helped them all to somedegree, but some of them it
really helped.
But it was a long shot to saythe least.
And we've been in a more inbetween stage for quite a long
time.
And during that time all toooften somebody who come across,
would say, yeah, I'll just getthe, all the orthodox treatment
done, and then I'll startlooking into that stuff and I'd
be like, holding my head, no!It's never the wrong time to
(22:31):
start looking outside the boxand into integrative medicine.
Before you start treatment isideal.
Get on with it straight away.
It's so important to the resultsof treatment, how you get
through treatment, how long youlive after treatment, and just
in every way it's important todo it sooner rather than later.
That's the piece of advice I'dgive to anybody who comes our
(22:53):
way or starts to look atintegrative medicine.
Don't wait.
The right time is right now.
Ivelisse Page (22:59):
Yes, I agree.
And could you imagine what adifference it would make for so
many patients if they found thissolution to adding it,
complimenting already thetreatments that they're doing.
So it's not like they have tochange anything, or even those
who wanted to do it on theirown.
I mean, I've seen a night andday difference.
Their quality of life and theirquantity of life over the years
(23:22):
at Believe Big.
So I love that you said thatit's, really important that
people get on board immediatelyso that they can protect their
body and support their body whenit's going through such a
difficult journey with cancer.
So thank you for sharing that.
And in our last moments, beforewe end today, is there anything
(23:45):
that I haven't asked you thatyou feel would be important to
share to those who are listeningtoday about men's health?
Robin Daly (23:51):
I think it would just be a summing up in a way,
what we've already said is thatI really feel there's so much on
offer for men.
I really invite them to contactus to get in touch with us,
contact your organization tofind out a bit more.
And, it is great that I say thatthey may be doing research and
all the rest of it on their own.
But actually a big part of themagic of integrative medicine is
(24:14):
the interactions you have.
And we encourage peoplebasically to be in touch with
somebody else, at least oneother person to join a group.
We have our own groups, whichare all like-minded people.
They're all thinking outside thebox.
So it's a safe, great place forpeople to be.
They're not gonna getcriticized, they're not gonna
get advised what they should andshouldn't be doing anything like
(24:35):
that.
They can just talk openly abouttheir journey of discovery with
other people who understandwhere they're at.
For people who are not ready forthat kind of thing, we have a
one-to-one service as well,where people get peer-to-peer
support.
This kind of buildingrelationships with people who
actually know the territorymakes such a difference because
if somebody first diagnosedit's, it is like being landed on
(24:57):
the moon.
It's just like another planet.
You're dealing with an areawhere you don't understand the
language.
All of your expectations of whatyour life is gonna be like have
just been chopped into bits.
You're in a really bleak placewhen you start out in the cancer
journey.
So you really need some friendsand they are out there.
You just have to find thechannel and we're one of them.
(25:18):
You are one of them.
Contact one of these places andsee what's on offer, what
there's gonna be something therethat suits everybody.
Ivelisse Page (25:25):
Yeah.
thank you so much, Robin.
That's excellent advice.
And hopefully one day I'll beable to cross the pond soon and
see you.
Robin Daly (25:32):
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah, you make sure.
Tell us when you do.
Ivelisse Page (25:36):
All right, thank you so much and look forward to
seeing you soon.
Robin Daly (25:40):
Thank you.
Ivelisse Page (25:47):
If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to
help support our podcast, pleasesubscribe and share it with
others.
Be sure to visit believebig.orgto access the show notes and
discover our bonus content.
Thanks again and keep BelievingBig!
Hi, I'm Ivelisse Page and thanks for listening to
the Believe Big podcast, theshow where we take a deep dive
into your healing with healthexperts, integrative
practitioners, biblical faithleaders, and cancer thrivers
from around the globe.
(00:34):
Welcome to today's episode onthe Believe Big podcast.
My name is Ivelisse Page andit's an honor to spend this time
with you.
Today, we are tackling animportant issue that typically
affects men.
It's how to get them involvedwith integrative and
complimentary medicine.
My guest today, Robin Daly, hasfound that in the 16 plus years
(00:56):
of developing Yes To Life, thatmen may do outside of the box
treatments like hypothermia orIV vitamin C, and even turn up
at a conference.
But if you put an event on themind body relationship, you'll
be lucky if one man shows up.
He's here today to help uschange this.
Robin Daly is the founder andchairman of Yes To Life in
(01:21):
response to the immensedifficulties he faced in finding
authentic, appropriate andavailable complimentary and
lifestyle treatments for hisdaughter when she was facing
cancer for the third time at 22years old?
Yes To Life was established in2005 as the first charity
offering direct support toanyone with cancer in the UK,
(01:44):
looking for ways to help theirown recovery.
They have a helpline service,offer financial assistance and
discounts to those with cancerin the UK.
They hold regular seminars andconferences.
They have a radio show andpodcast and publish a book
called The Cancer Revolution incollaboration with Patricia
Pete, and so much more.
(02:07):
So I am so excited.
Welcome Robin to the show.
Robin Daly (02:10):
Hello, Ivelisse.
A real pleasure.
Thanks so much for inviting meon.
Ivelisse Page (02:14):
It's so great to see you and to have you on.
our listeners are alwaysinterested in discovering what
our guest favorite health tipis, and I know you have many,
but can you just share one withus?
Robin Daly (02:24):
All right.
Okay.
I think my favorite health tipis get educated.
And I say this because it'swhat's happened to me through
the course of running Yes ToLife.
I've always been healthconscious, always gone for a
good diet, sort of whole food,good diet all my life.
But, actually it wasn't until Igot to running Yes To Life, I
started to really learn a lotmore about what good food's all
(02:48):
about and the challenge ofbuying good food has got great
and greater as green washingovertaken us.
And you really do need to knowwhat you're looking for in a
shop if you wanna buy somethingwhich is actually good food.
But further than that when Istarted out, I wasn't really the
slightest bit concerned what wasunderneath the basin in the
bathroom, in that cupboard,where you keep all your cleaning
stuff or underneath the sink inthe kitchen.
(03:10):
I just thought it was neitherhere nor there.
But now the stuff I used to usethen I wouldn't touch it with a
barge pole.
I've completely changed myrelationship to all the products
that are around my home that Ilive with.
And, I just got educatedbasically.
I talked to so many people whoare actually know about these
subjects.
In the end you can't ignore itYou have to change.
We never like to change, but inthe end, enough education, bites
(03:34):
home
Ivelisse Page (03:35):
Yes.
Knowledge is power and you alldo such a great job at educating
people and letting them know.
But you mentioned a word or aterm that some of our listeners
may not be familiar with, and Iwould love for you just to
briefly explain what is greenwashing?
Robin Daly (03:51):
As the popularity of healthy products has gone up and
the market for them has gotbigger, of course, the key
players who've been busy sellingabsolute junk think they're
missing out on something.
And so there's inevitably adrive to make a poor food look
good by putting the rightpicture on the right words, that
kind of thing.
(04:11):
And really they need to havelittle relationship really to
what's going on in the factoryfarm.
You could put a few lovelypictures of fields and cows and
things, butterflies and try andeven some rather healthy looking
logos that are not genuine logosof anything like the organic
society.
That's what I call greenwashing.
It's just basically trying tomake un-wholesome things look
(04:33):
appetizing to people who careabout getting good food.
Ivelisse Page (04:36):
Yes.
Just like the cigarette industryused to have like cartoons and
all of these pictures to entice
Robin Daly (04:42):
Exactly.
Ivelisse Page (04:42):
Younger generation to smoke.
So let's get into our topictoday.
And I'd love to get your insightand input as a man who really
appreciates integrative medicineand all that it has to offer to
patients.
But why do you think men areless likely to seek out
complimentary therapies comparedto women?
Robin Daly (05:02):
Right, well, I think it's a conditioning thing.
I mean, quite obviously, menneed care and have their
vulnerabilities just as womendo.
There's no difference reallyfrom that point of view.
But the conditioning is verydifferent and the expectations
on a man, almost from whenthey're a kid of come on, put
yourself together.
Don't cry.
That kind of macho thing isbrought in incredibly early,
(05:24):
very often.
Not always, but very often.
And, I think right across thesociety, there's a kind of
expectation that men don't dothis stuff.
And the idea that somebody who'sfacing a life-threatening
illness like cancer, doesn'tneed as much support as a man
need as much support as a womanis to me, it's ridiculous.
They clearly do.
(05:45):
But I think they don't feel ableto ask and they don't, there's
very often a rather femininevibe around complementary
alternative medicine,integrative medicine as well,
because that's where the womengo.
It's not the women's fault, butit's simply that the women are
attracted there and men, I thinkfeel a bit excluded from that
and they sort of leave it aloneand let them get on with it.
(06:07):
And men are taught to rely onusing their intellect to look
up, research some really goodstuff to do and all that, which
is great.
Of course there's nothing wrongwith that, but this other whole
side of their psychological andemotional life gets ignored in
that.
And they tough it out throughcancer, which is hard for
heaven's sake, why?
(06:27):
I went to a conference, whichwas on complimentary medicine,
and I was sitting in this largehall, I mean, there must have
been 150 people in there, Ithink something like that, maybe
200.
And after a little while, I sortof suddenly struck me.
Now wait a minute.
There aren't any men here.
And there was one other manother than me.
He was the person on the stagespeaking and everybody else was
(06:49):
a woman.
I was like, whoa, this isridiculous.
And I think it, frankly, it istragic on two sides.
One is the side of receivingthat I've already described is
that, yeah, men need caring for,just like women need caring for
when they're up against it.
No doubt about it in my mind.
But on the other side, men makesuch great carers, actually
engaging in complimentarymedicine.
(07:10):
They don't do that either verymuch, they stay away from both
sides of it.
And I think it's a tragedybecause men of course are just
as caring as women and they havean excellent way of delivering
complimentary medicine, forexample, in a very caring way.
And of course, men and women arenot the same, so there is a
different energy to it as well.
And I've been running Yes ToLife for nearly two decades now
(07:31):
and I love the women who workwith us to bits.
But it's been so difficult toget any men to join me,
honestly.
We have a man who's an executivedirector at the moment, and
that's a first.
But still by far the majority ofthe people working in the
charity are women and as I said,I love them to bits they're
fantastic.
They're dedicated, they're doinggreat stuff.
But I'd like some men as well,please.
(07:52):
Yes.
Is anybody listening?
Ivelisse Page (07:55):
Yes.
You share that genuine strengthand independence are about the
willingness to be vulnerable andselling themselves short to
capitalizing on all thatintegrative medicine has to
offer.
Can you expand on that a littlebit?
Robin Daly (08:10):
Yeah, if somebody calls our helpline, the the
first thing that to be concernedabout is the state of mind of
the person.
If somebody calls up thehelpline and they're feeling
hopeless, that's a terriblething.
They're in no situation to thinkabout deciding anything from
that place because they make apoor decision about their own
future, their own wellbeing.
The state of mind is the is thestarting point, it's the
(08:31):
baseline.
All the really key sort of areasthat people think about in
lifestyle medicine, you where Iexercise and diet and all this
stuff, they'll come next.
Thereafter, if the will to liveis in good shape and the person
is not feeling hopeless, even ifthey're facing an incredibly
difficult situation.
We don't know what's gonnahappen here.
(08:52):
There are no certainties inlife.
I've been told I've got sixmonths solid.
But they could be wrong.
If they're in that place,they're good to go, and then you
can get on with all thepractical stuff.
But if they're not, then there'sno point in starting any other
stuff.
It's almost doomed to failure,as far as I'm concerned.
You've got to have the state ofmind right, and that is a subtle
(09:12):
thing because apart fromanything else before someone is
faced with their diagnosis likecancer, sometimes they may not
realize it, but their will tolive is not very strong.
Some people are actually a bitambivalent about even being
here.
So along comes cancer and whoa,you are not really in a position
to survive cancer.
(09:32):
If you're ambivalent aboutwhether you even want to, you
might be looking at it as aneasy way out.
these psychological andemotional issues really have to
be addressed and quite apartfrom that, what I've described,
which is like where you startout from, of course,
unbelievably challenging journeymany people have of going
through cancer, and there arelots of times when the
(09:53):
psychological emotionalpressures, and spiritual
pressures are huge.
And to think that people can getthrough all that without any
help is well, they might, but, Idon't think they should have to,
that's what I'm saying.
They should feel it's just asavailable to them as to anybody
else.
Ivelisse Page (10:08):
Yes.
And so in, in your experience,what ways have you found that
was helpful in engaging menmore?
What are some ways that we allcould engage more on this side
of healing?
Robin Daly (10:20):
This is such a hard one.
Honestly, we're thinking aboutthis a lot of the time.
And it is so difficult.
I do feel there is a virtue inhaving events which are for men
though, because of the thing Ispoke about earlier.
There's a feeling about thewhole arena of integrated
medicine being for women.
And therefore if you put onsomething special for the men,
at least they're gonna feellike, okay, it's just some other
(10:40):
guy's gonna be there.
And, if that's a way of gettingthem in the door and then later
on they're much freer and easyabout it, then let's do it.
But, that's really the primething I've come up with in all
these years is that, you mustcater particularly for men and
know that they feel excluded ina certain kind of way, and
they're not likely to comeforward unless you make a nice,
comfortable space that lookslike they might fit in.
(11:03):
The other side of it, I suppose,is if they're coming to an event
which involves somebody who'sspeaking, leading it in some
way, then you look for a figurewho men will find a good
figurehead and somebody who'sinspirational in some way.
And, somebody obviously whothemselves is not afraid of
moving outta the box of kind ofsharing information and all the
(11:24):
rest of it, but is wants toengage with what people really
get to know them, get to hearabout, what they're struggling
with all the rest of it.
And talk about ways in whichintegrative medicine can really
help them and just understandthe men's point of view, if you
like.
Yeah, it's tricky, it's no magicfixes.
I haven't come up with anything,which is oh, I'll just do this,
and then it'll turn up.
Ivelisse Page (11:44):
Yes.
How can we change the way wetalk about it so that you think
it would resonate more with men?
Robin Daly (11:50):
I think you know what we're doing, which is
directly addressing the subjectis good.
It hasn't been talked about muchin the past.
I mean, I've written somearticles about it, but it's not
something you come acrossanywhere mentioned.
But it's so obvious it isn'ttrue, that there aren't any men.
It's just absolutely obvious.
Things are going in the rightdirection.
There's no doubt about it.
I say I've been doing this for20 years.
(12:10):
In that time things have changedquite a lot.
Twenty years ago men didn't knowthey had a prostate and they
certainly wouldn't have talkedabout it if they did.
Now it's you can talk about thatstuff, of course, yeah, I've got
a diagnosis of prostate cancer.
Nobody minds that anymore, and Ihave to say more men do turn up
at things.
We do keep a track of thesethings and if you've got 10% of
(12:30):
men, you're doing really well.
In some years going by we havehad getting towards a third
occasionally.
Definitely things are moving inthat direction, which is very
good.
So we must be doing somethingright.
I hope so.
But, I think, in the main, Ithink the change is a societal
one is that men are feeling moreable to talk about things now.
They've been encouraged to in amultitude of different ways.
(12:52):
Having a prince standing up andtalking about mental health and
things like that actually doeshelp.
It makes people feel like it'sactually okay to share about
this stuff.
This sort of idea that you haveto be a castle standing on your
own and all that stuff.
It's good in principle in someways that you can stand alone
and when you need to and all therest of it.
But as a way to be, which isisolated, it's terrible.
(13:15):
So I think yeah, society ismaking much more room for men to
have that kind of vulnerability,which I'm very happy about.
I mean, it's certainly, nothinglike as abusive as it was when I
was young.
I mean, men's society when I wasyoung was just a hundred percent
abusive as far as I wasconcerned.
It was a nightmare.
All the stuff that was men onlywas like, oh no, please.
(13:36):
I just did not wanna be anythingto do with it.
But, there is the cultural rootslist are really deep.
It is just it's a brutalconditioning that the world has
for men and, I think it's veryunfortunate.
And, what do you do about that.
It happens in business, the samestaff.
It happens in sport.
It's just coming out in thiscountry, just how abusive the
(13:59):
fire service, the police, thefootball associations, rugby,
all sorts of things are beingsuddenly revealed to be abusive.
What a surprise.
Yeah.
They all are.
All the culture is built on thisabuse and the thing that's
bringing it out, I think is thefact the women are getting
involved in this and they'rehaving a horrible time.
(14:20):
And so it's finally making itonto the news.
And, and so the things gettinguncovered, the, I think this is
going to be fabulous news formen.
It seems like the news iswanting to stop women being
abused in that way, but it'llalso let the majority of men who
would much rather not be engagedin any of that kind of stuff,
off the hook.
No longer is it reasonable thatthis stuff goes on in their
(14:44):
place of work or wherever it is.
And so they don't allow itanymore.
They actually say, oh no, we'renot gonna have that here.
This guy who's running thisabusive thing, he needs to go.
And, when that happens, I thinkthe culture of men will change
big time.
It'll really ease off and theability for men to be
vulnerable, I mean, you can't bevulnerable in the face of abuse.
(15:07):
That's all there is to it.
It's just common sense.
You look after number one.
So I think that's where it comesfrom, this lack of vulnerability
in men.
It's that kind of deep,thousands of years cultural
conditioning.
And yeah, and the sooner we getrid of it, the better.
Ivelisse Page (15:19):
I think we, we need strong men leaders that
have the ability to, like youwere saying, to encourage
others, whether they're speakingat conferences or within their
own families.
I know even in our home, myhusband does an incredible job
of letting our kids know that,it's not just about their
physical bodies that needtending to, it's their
spiritual, their mental andemotional and they rally
(15:42):
together and talk about thingsopenly and honestly.
And, we need more of that.
When they were little, he wasthe one that actually would put
together their homeopathicremedy.
So it wasn't always me.
They're like, dad, my throat'shurting.
And he's like, okay, let me gocreate you your little health
bomb.
And they loved it.
And so he took an active roleeven when they were young about
(16:03):
taking care of themselves andlooking out for things and not
ignoring them.
And which leads me to the nextquestion, why do you think men
wait so long to get the helpthat they need?
Robin Daly (16:14):
I think it is that thing, you're absolutely right.
If you just look at the basicrelationship between men and
their primary care provider, youthe GP in this country.
They'll leave it till it's toolate usually before they go to
the GP.
They get diagnosed with cancertoo late, for example.
But everything basically willleave it too late.
And, I do think it's all partand parcel of the same thing
about feeling you have to standalone and look after yourself
(16:37):
and, and that sort of stuff issomehow weak.
I think it's seen as weak.
What you just said, then youtalk about strong leaders where
you see, I think there's anentirely upside down view in the
world of what a strong leaderlooks like.
They seem to get voted in allthe time, these strong leaders,
but they're the weakest of all,unfortunately.
And the fact they're so weakmeans they have to bully
(16:57):
everybody.
That's what they do.
Cause they're completely weak.
And, the strength that we'relooking for is a strength to be
vulnerable and real and, and toreally interact with people in a
real way.
And that's quite a differentthing all together.
And unfortunately we have fartoo few examples of people like
that in leadership positions,cuz the other guys desperately
(17:20):
want to get there.
They take them all theleadership positions and then
sort of,"macho" it out with eachother.
And, at our expense, we pay theprice for them doing this stuff,
either fighting their wars or,making them rich or whatever it
is.
And, so I absolutely agree withyou.
We need some good, strongleaders, but by that, yeah,
they're good examples of warmthand humanity and empathy.
Ivelisse Page (17:43):
Yeah.
And I believe it, it starts inour home, and that's an easy way
to, to start.
We may not have control of whatis shared outside of it, but, we
can play an active role to passit on to our kids of what that
means and to our communities andour neighborhoods with our
neighbors.
And so I feel like that's couldbe an easy role for all of us to
(18:05):
step into.
What advice do you have for menwho may be skeptical about
integrative medicine and unsureof where to start?
Robin Daly (18:14):
Okay.
Well it, it is fair enough theskepticism about integrative
medicine for anybody who'scoming at it from nice sort of
dry scientific view, it seems ohyeah, all the sciences with the
mainstream medicine, and this isall sitting outside it.
That certainly used to be thecase, but it, I wanna say
flatly, it isn't true anymore,right?
There's good evidence behind anawful lot of integrated
(18:36):
medicine.
And there's good evidence notonly for it in a kind of
standalone capacity to help inthe myriad of different ways,
but also in its capacity to helpwith mainstream medicine,
extraordinarily important.
You are missing a trick if youthink that's all sort of woowoo
and you're going to stick withthe mainstream.
The two things are actuallymoving together at last and I
mean one of the best examplesthat's come up recently is that
(18:59):
of course immunotherapy is oneof the big success stories in
mainstream medicine formelanoma, which has had nothing
good in the way of treatmentforever.
It's actually quite successful,but its success is very largely
dependent on the state of yourmicrobiome.
If you have a poor microbiome,it's quite likely to fail
completely.
(19:20):
So the two things have to gohand in hand.
If you do one without the other,it's it, it is like roulette.
You basically would be mad notto do everything you can to
ensure your microbiome in asgood as state as possible
before, during, and afterimmunotherapy, if you wanna
live.
So that to me is marvelous cuzof course the microbiome, this
is definitely the world ofintegrative medicine.
(19:41):
That's not what you think ofthat's coming from your
hospital.
But, that piece of science isjust like fabulous for
demonstrating just how importantit can be, not to just stick
with drugs, for example.
There's much more to health thandrugs.
Ivelisse Page (19:57):
Yes.
I completely agree.
What are some success storiesthat you can share of men who
have incorporated that you'veworked with
Robin Daly (20:05):
Yes,.
I'm glad to say we have workedwith men and, some exceptional
men too.
These are remarkable charactersquite often who do actually turn
up at our door.
And, they use a great deal ofinitiative.
I mean, it seems to be naturallymeant to do this sort of massive
research project.
I've done it myself, did it withmy daughter.
And, that can be veryproductive.
(20:25):
You can get people educated veryquickly, get an enormous amount
of information at theirfingertips.
But if they're prepared to addto that a bit more exploration
into the world, other ways thatthey can help themselves and not
just, the more practical ones ifyou like that's when the magic
starts to happen.
And quite often, I mean, you'llhave had this experience that
(20:47):
I've talked to many people whotell me that actually cancer's
the best thing that everhappened to them.
Ridiculous sounding statement,but they actually mean it.
And the reason they mean it'scause their life transformed
because they got cancer.
And I can say that, not cuz Igot cancer, but cause my
daughter got cancer, my lifetransformed.
So that was actually the bestthing that ever happened to me.
(21:08):
For a man that happens to, theydo come out the other side, a
remarkable person who has a hugeamount to offer.
This is the thing, is not onlydo they transform their own
lives, have a much better lifeafter than they had before, but
also they're like a beacon forother men, basically.
They actually show the way.
And, we need that.
I love those people.
(21:29):
They're not enough of themaround, but yeah, they're great.
Ivelisse Page (21:32):
Yeah.
So when someone comes to Yes ToLife, what would you say are the
top things, looking back withwhat you went through with your
daughter, all the patients thatyou work with, what would be
your top three things that youwould hope that every man and
woman would do for their healthonce they're diagnosed?
Robin Daly (21:50):
Okay.
We've been through sort of thethree stages during the course
of Yes To Life.
When we started out, nearlyeverybody who came to us arrived
at our door after they'd beenradiated to death at as much
chemo as they were allowed tohave been kicked out and told
well you're gonna die.
And they were hoping thatintegrative medicine was gonna
help them.
Some of them it did help.
(22:11):
It helped them all to somedegree, but some of them it
really helped.
But it was a long shot to saythe least.
And we've been in a more inbetween stage for quite a long
time.
And during that time all toooften somebody who come across,
would say, yeah, I'll just getthe, all the orthodox treatment
done, and then I'll startlooking into that stuff and I'd
be like, holding my head, no!It's never the wrong time to
(22:31):
start looking outside the boxand into integrative medicine.
Before you start treatment isideal.
Get on with it straight away.
It's so important to the resultsof treatment, how you get
through treatment, how long youlive after treatment, and just
in every way it's important todo it sooner rather than later.
That's the piece of advice I'dgive to anybody who comes our
(22:53):
way or starts to look atintegrative medicine.
Don't wait.
The right time is right now.
Ivelisse Page (22:59):
Yes, I agree.
And could you imagine what adifference it would make for so
many patients if they found thissolution to adding it,
complimenting already thetreatments that they're doing.
So it's not like they have tochange anything, or even those
who wanted to do it on theirown.
I mean, I've seen a night andday difference.
Their quality of life and theirquantity of life over the years
(23:22):
at Believe Big.
So I love that you said thatit's, really important that
people get on board immediatelyso that they can protect their
body and support their body whenit's going through such a
difficult journey with cancer.
So thank you for sharing that.
And in our last moments, beforewe end today, is there anything
(23:45):
that I haven't asked you thatyou feel would be important to
share to those who are listeningtoday about men's health?
Robin Daly (23:51):
I think it would just be a summing up in a way,
what we've already said is thatI really feel there's so much on
offer for men.
I really invite them to contactus to get in touch with us,
contact your organization tofind out a bit more.
And, it is great that I say thatthey may be doing research and
all the rest of it on their own.
But actually a big part of themagic of integrative medicine is
(24:14):
the interactions you have.
And we encourage peoplebasically to be in touch with
somebody else, at least oneother person to join a group.
We have our own groups, whichare all like-minded people.
They're all thinking outside thebox.
So it's a safe, great place forpeople to be.
They're not gonna getcriticized, they're not gonna
get advised what they should andshouldn't be doing anything like
(24:35):
that.
They can just talk openly abouttheir journey of discovery with
other people who understandwhere they're at.
For people who are not ready forthat kind of thing, we have a
one-to-one service as well,where people get peer-to-peer
support.
This kind of buildingrelationships with people who
actually know the territorymakes such a difference because
if somebody first diagnosedit's, it is like being landed on
(24:57):
the moon.
It's just like another planet.
You're dealing with an areawhere you don't understand the
language.
All of your expectations of whatyour life is gonna be like have
just been chopped into bits.
You're in a really bleak placewhen you start out in the cancer
journey.
So you really need some friendsand they are out there.
You just have to find thechannel and we're one of them.
(25:18):
You are one of them.
Contact one of these places andsee what's on offer, what
there's gonna be something therethat suits everybody.
Ivelisse Page (25:25):
Yeah.
thank you so much, Robin.
That's excellent advice.
And hopefully one day I'll beable to cross the pond soon and
see you.
Robin Daly (25:32):
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah, you make sure.
Tell us when you do.
Ivelisse Page (25:36):
All right, thank you so much and look forward to
seeing you soon.
Robin Daly (25:40):
Thank you.
Ivelisse Page (25:47):
If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to
help support our podcast, pleasesubscribe and share it with
others.
Be sure to visit believebig.orgto access the show notes and
discover our bonus content.
Thanks again and keep BelievingBig!
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