December 31, 2024 • 36 mins
Discover how faith deconstruction can be a transformative journey toward a deeper, more authentic spirituality in our latest Believe Big podcast episode featuring Kristi Gaultiere, author of Journey of the Soul.
Kristi shares profound insights into the stages of spiritual growth, offering guidance for those wrestling with doubts or seeking clarity in their faith. Whether you are navigating a personal crisis, like a cancer diagnosis, or simply yearning for a closer connection to God, this episode provides a compassionate framework for exploring your beliefs.
Learn how to embrace the questions that arise during life’s challenges and use them as stepping stones for spiritual renewal. Kristi’s wisdom will inspire you to lean into the process with hope and courage, finding peace in the journey. Don’t miss this empowering conversation—it’s a must-listen for anyone seeking strength and purpose in their faith journey. Tune in now to be encouraged and uplifted!
Learn more about Kristi Gaultiere and Soul Shepherding:
https://www.soulshepherding.org/
Suggested Resources:
- BOOK: Journey of the Soul
- PODCAST: Believe Big (Season 2) Caring for Our Souls with Kristi Gaulitiere
- PODCAST: Believe Big (Season 2) Emotional and Spiritual Growth with Kristi Gaultiere
- PODCAST: Soul Talks with Bill and Kristi Gaultiere
- Spotify Playlist: The Wall, Journey of the Soul
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ivelisse Page (00:06):
Hi, I'm Ivelisse Page, and thanks for listening
to the Believe Big podcast, theshow where we take a deep dive
into your healing with healthexperts, integrative
practitioners, biblical faithleaders, and cancer thrivers
from around the globe.
(00:34):
Welcome to today's episode onthe Believe Big podcast.
My name is Ivelisse Page, and Iam so honored to be with you
today.
It is my great pleasure towelcome back to the Believe Big
podcast, my friend and soulsister, Kristi Gaultiere.
Kristi is a frequent guest onour show that helps us to
understand and care for thehealth of our souls and the need
(00:58):
for caring for them.
Kristi is a doctor of psychologyand has dedicated her life to
serving Jesus.
She has also co-authored abestselling book with her
husband of 35 years calledJourney of the Soul, A Practical
Guide to Emotional and SpiritualGrowth.
Her and Bill have three grownchildren.
(01:19):
She's a grandmother of two.
She enjoys speaking, training,teaching, consulting,
counseling, and retreat leadingwith Bill.
as well as recording theirweekly Soul Talks podcast.
Welcome back to the show,Kristi.
Kristi Gaultiere (01:33):
Oh, thank you, Ivelisse.
I'm so happy to be with youtoday and to each of our friends
with us listening in.
Ivelisse Page (01:41):
Well, I'm so grateful that you're here to
talk with us about hope anddeconstruction of our faith.
You know, I was just having aconversation with my family
because, you know, many peoplehave circumstances in their
lives, especially in ourcommunity with cancer, that
cause us as individuals toquestion our faith.
It happened to me when my fatherdied when I was 13, and also
(02:03):
last fall when I got a secondcancer diagnosis and the good
news for people to hear today isthat it's healthy to question
things that you have been taughtand learned because you're being
honest with how you feel.
But here's the important pieceand I feel like this is the
message of today is that, youdon't have to lose your faith in
the process and I know that SoulShepherding works with many
(02:28):
individuals who hit this walland I'm so excited for you to
shed light into this topic.
But before we get into it youknow we always start our show
with with our favorite healthtip and you have shared in the
past about prayer, you sharedabout rhythms of life.
What is another one that you canshare with our listeners today?
Kristi Gaultiere (02:50):
Well, another one's pretty obvious pretty
basic, but I've found it reallyhelpful to me and that's just
drinking a lot of water, reallystaying hydrated.
I just am so grateful.
I thank God every day for pure,clean water and in abundance and
something easy to take forgranted.
But it makes a big differencewhen I get enough versus when I
(03:11):
don't.
Little things.
Ivelisse Page (03:12):
Yes.
Yes.
Little thing that is a bigthing.
Yeah.
Yes.
So Kristi, for, for those whomay not understand what
deconstruction is.
Can you explain what it is?
Kristi Gaultiere (03:24):
Yes.
Well, it's actually a seasonthat often we can experience in
our life, and we often maybewill experience it as
questioning our faith, feelingdryness spiritually, feeling
doubts in our faith, it'ssomething maybe, maybe it'd be
(03:49):
best just to use a descriptionfrom our book, Journey of The
Soul.
We say just a simple definitionChristian deconstruction is the
experience of questioning yourfaith, your traditions, the
Bible or your church.
It's taking apart your beliefsystem.
So that you can rebuild it,founded on a relationship of
(04:11):
healthy trusting Jesus.
So we all have experienced inour spiritual life a
construction of our faith.
And there are certain, you mighteven say, bricks that we've been
put in there that are prettyfoundational.
We write about this in our book,Journey of the Soul, which is
about our stages of faith andemotional, spiritual growth.
(04:34):
So when we build a faith, we getsome basic building blocks in
there, and then we build onthose as we grow and mature in
our faith.
But it is normal for us aftersome years of building that,
that faith.
that faith and those pillars andputting those key components in
(04:54):
to start to question some ofthose.
They, they get knocked on prettyhard.
They get assaulted.
We hear things that are inconflict with them that are
different than them.
We experience things in lifethat don't seem to fit that box
that we've kind of maybe put Godin.
And so it starts to getchallenged.
(05:16):
And then we run into a new setof experiences.
Like many of your listenersright now, or like I have with,
you know, I've had four familymembers with cancer and the last
two years, and I've lost two offour of them to, to cancer.
Uh, the other two are doinggreat and have fully recovered.
But, um, you know, those kindsof challenges they bring about
(05:37):
questions that we haven't hadbefore.
Those experiences test ourfaith.
They push really hard on thosethose beliefs we've constructed
and, um, cause us to relook atour life and some things that we
hadn't really questioned before.
And that can be a deconstructionof those things that maybe we'd
(06:01):
felt pretty confident in.
Maybe they've supported us well,held us up well, and now it's,
it's getting pretty wobbly.
Another thing that we writeabout in the chapter, The Wall,
This is the stage of faith wherewe are often in some sort of a
deconstruction.
There's different kinds ofwalls.
It can be a personal crisis,like a cancer diagnosis.
(06:21):
It could be a dark night of thesoul where you really are not
experiencing God's comfort andpresence and consolation.
Maybe you're reading scriptureand it feels dry and dead, where
it used to feel alive and speakto you, now it's just boring.
Maybe you can't find anythingmotivating or that feels good in
your spiritual life that used tofeel so great.
(06:42):
Now it just feels all blah andboring and old and dry and
familiar.
Maybe you don't want to go tochurch anymore.
Maybe you're feeling burned outon all the the things that you
were doing in your life inserving God and you don't have
any motivation to join itanymore.
These are can all be a part ofthat season at the wall.
(07:02):
And one of the things that canhappen at the wall is this
deconstruction where we start tothink what's happening to me.
Well, is God even real?
Is anything I believe even trueanymore?
Do I still believe it?
Is it working for me?
Those are the kind of thingsthat we start to look at and ask
ourselves in a deconstruction ofour faith.
Ivelisse Page (07:21):
Yes, and you have shared, you know, that even some
of our heroes of faith wentthrough deconstruction.
And I was like, what?
At first, when I first heardthat, it surprised me.
Until you started to share aboutit.
Can you share with our audiencesome of the biblical examples of
those who went through thisprocess, like Moses and
Nicodemus even?
Kristi Gaultiere (07:41):
Absolutely.
We do write about this in ourbook.
One of the things we write aboutis we talk about Paul's journey
through every season and stageof faith, and Abraham's, and
most importantly Jesus's, aswell as Bill and I share our
stories and the stories ofothers we've journeyed with but
Jesus experienced a testing ofhis faith where, he was drawn
(08:02):
into the wilderness there for 40days where he was tested by
Satan in every way and temptedin every way that we are we know
that he was he was also temptedvery much by the religious
leaders of his day who areconstantly peppering him with
questions and challenging him Weknow even John the Baptist his
cousin who he loved so very muchquestioned if he was the Messiah
(08:27):
And we know that Jesus sufferedother walls that we write about
in our book.
He, he experienced andencountered at least three
walls, which are that, thatstage of faith where you hit a
wall, a really a testing and atrial time and, um, certainly we
know that one of those walls wasearly on in those hidden years
of his life when he was stuck athome in the hick town of
(08:50):
Nazareth working as a bluecollar worker, providing for his
family.
We knew he had multiple brothersand sisters and his mom was a
widow.
And so he would have been thehead male of the house and
household and provider and hewas probably working for his
enemies, um, the Romans whooccupied Israel at the time and
be persecuted by them.
(09:10):
And what a dry time.
Here he was, uh, with so muchknowledge and giftedness and
this huge call of God on hislife.
And it sure didn't look like itin that season, that long
season, 18 years, uh, of waitingbetween him being 12 years old
at the synagogue, teaching thereligious leaders, till he was
(09:32):
30, launching his ministry.
And then we know he had a deepwall there of temptation in the
Garden of Gethsemane, where hewas being tested by Satan.
Again, um, but certainly we knowPaul hit a big wall, a big
deconstruction on the road toDamascus, when he was kicked off
his horse and blinded, and herehe was a Pharisee, he had
(09:53):
constructed a whole faith andreligious system, he had been
trained by Gamaliel, it was avery highly respected.
He was A++ student, summa cumlaude, you know, he was the top
of his religious order there,devout.
And here, what a deconstructionto encounter the living Christ,
saying, why are you persecutingme?
(10:15):
And all of a sudden you had allthese, but Lord, who are you?
All of these questions.
And he was blinded and weexperienced often a sort of
blinding, maybe not physicallylike Paul did, um, but he
experienced a totaldeconstruction and it was a good
thing, and he went, then went,three years into the desert of
Arabia to work through thatdeconstruction and that
(10:36):
reconstruction of a healthyfaith.
And that's the opportunity indeconstruction is the
reconstruction.
We maybe have some things thatwere built into our faith that
need to be taken out in orderfor the Lord to reteach us and
put some healthy new beliefs inthere.
Autumn Hensley (10:56):
Hey, Believe Big podcast listeners.
I hope you're enjoying today'sepisode with Kristi Gaultiere
and finding our podcastencouraging and uplifting.
Today is New Year's Eve, and aswe end 2024, we'd love for you
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(11:17):
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Joining us is easy.
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Ivelisse Page (11:36):
Yes.
Yeah, and I think that's whereit gets a bad name, right?
So I think this wholeprogressive Christianity that we
hear about now, you know theimproper way of Deconstructing
and then reconstruction withwhat you believe is what we hear
a lot.
This is my truth.
You have your truth when we knowthat Jesus says that he is the
(11:58):
way, the truth, and the life.
So how does one reconstructfaith after deconstruction in a
healthy way?
Kristi Gaultiere (12:07):
Well, the good news is that's the goal.
That's the goal.
And that's why God allows thesetimes of testing and for us to
go through this disorientation.
Um, the, the deconstruction timewe hit the wall, it is
disorienting.
It is a time it's destabilizingas we're questioning things
before were so stabilizing forus as we have these new
(12:28):
wrestlings.
Um, and so it's not somethingthat usually we choose, but we
can choose how we respond to it.
And that's, what's really key isthat it can, are we going to
respond by just spinning out andseeking other, um, kind of other
beliefs, other religions.
And a lot of people,unfortunately, when they hit a
(12:49):
wall, they don't know thatthere's any other choice and
they will leave and totallyabandon their faith in Christ.
Thinking that I guess this isall there was and it was
immature and there's nothingmore and they start to seek all
these other kind of spiritualexperiences and they kind of
diminish what they hadexperienced before and they can
(13:10):
lose sight of some of the jewelsand the treasures there and
that's really, really sad.
So very sad.
And so, uh, deconstructions canbe a dangerous time and we want
to really empathize with peoplewho are in a deconstruction and
we want to make sure that wemake space to really listen to
those doubts, those wrestlings,to empathize with that emotion
(13:32):
of how that feels and the painin that for them.
And, um, how hard it feels tofeel untethered from some things
that were really secure forthem, but we also want to help
keep them tethered to the truthof Christ and the presence of
Christ and his great love forhim and not wander out to where
(13:53):
they lose their faith in Christand they lose the goodness of
him and his light, his life, hispower, his grace that we, we so
need.
So to remember that it's anopportunity for a healthy
reconstruction and to, to notdeconstruct to the point where
you abandon Jesus as the way,the truth and the life is, is
(14:15):
really, really important inthat.
And it can be helpful in ourjourney to look through, look
back and say, um, okay, so what,how do I know any of this is
true.
So there's, there's four thingsthat can be really helpful in
that too.
One of those is we want to lookat scripture.
Scripture is the source of truthin our life.
(14:37):
We want to look at reason.
Reason is the source of truth inour life.
Experience is a source of trueour spiritual experience.
How have I experienced God?
What, how do I know God wasreal?
Um, what does the Bible tell me?
What are other people'sexperiences?
What are my experiences?
What's reasonable that Ibelieve?
(14:58):
Reasonable that it's true.
And then also tradition.
We've got thousands andthousands of years of tradition,
Christian tradition of followersof Jesus and they're wrestling
through deconstructions andthey're their experience, their
reason, their knowledge, um,their interaction with God's
(15:20):
word and truth.
And we want, we don't want toforsake 2000 years of tradition
just because we're having somedoubts or some questions.
We don't want to be quick toabandon that.
So having those four supportscan really help us as well in
our reconstruction of our faithand asking God to lead us to
(15:42):
some of some reminders of that.
So it was really helpful to mein my time of deconstruction to
remember all the consolationsthat I had experienced in my
life in Christ through thoseearlier stages of my first
coming to Christ, my when Ifirst put my confidence in
Christ, through my help anddiscipleship, where I was really
learning to study scripture andreceiving truth from the Bible
(16:07):
and through my responsibilitiesin ministry, where I really did
experience the presence of powerof God in my life, ministering
to me through other people andtheir gifts, but also empowering
me and giving me joy gifts thatI got to use and experienced His
power through me far beyond myown abilities and knowledge.
And so holding on and kind ofgoing down memory lane and
(16:28):
remembering those good things.
Um, it's one of the things weencourage people to do in our
Journey of the Soul book and inour Institute Retreats is to do
a journey map of our, ourspiritual journey so far and
really mining what are thosetreasures?
Where have I had thoseexperiences with God?
Where have I experienced theseother things that people in my,
(16:51):
in my Christian traditiontestify to and have experienced
and looking at other people'sjourneys like we spell out in
Journey of the Soul and findingout what, What of those are true
in my journey?
Okay, I want to keep those,those are, those are bricks I
want to keep in my faith lifeand wall and not let those
tumble or get thrown out in mydeconstruction process.
(17:12):
And then where do I have longingfor God?
Where are there others that areahead of me on this journey?
And where's God inviting me onmy journey that maybe I've been,
I haven't been ready to go therebecause I have been closed
minded.
Because oftentimes beforedeconstruction, my thinking
might be very black and white.
And God might want to grow mebeyond that black and white
(17:35):
thinking, or I might have putGod in a box that he wants to
grow my view and my image ifanyone want to correct my image
of God.
I probably along the way havegotten some mistaken images of
God, which you know we talk alot about in our spiritual
formation retreat.
So these are the kind ofopportunities we have at the
wall, to be able to look at whatare my ideas about God?
(17:59):
Where have they been, uh, boxedin maybe by immature faith?
Where's God expanding them andgrowing me or where have they
gotten out there and I need tobring them back in an alignment
with God's truth and scriptureand experience.
Ivelisse Page (18:14):
And it can happen at all, at many different points
in our life.
It's not just, Oh, there's thisone time where, you know, I hit
this and, and that's it.
You know, it can happen severaltimes in our life, can't it?
Kristi Gaultiere (18:25):
Yes, it can.
I know, um, in Journey of theSoul, we talk about we can hit a
wall like a deconstructionmultiple times.
It usually happens after someyears in the first three stages
of faith, which are the C, H,and R stages, which we talk
about Confidence in Christ, Helpin Discipleship, and
Responsibility in Ministry.
(18:46):
But it can even happen afterwe've progressed into the latter
stages, which are Inner Journey,Spirit Led Ministry and
Transforming Union because we,we have an enemy at every stage
of our development and he'salways trying to kill, steal and
destroy us.
And so we will get other timesof doubt, other times of
(19:07):
questioning, other times wherewe will be back in that
deconstructing and re examiningour beliefs.
And also because we have a Lordwho loves us, who's always
calling us into more and alwayswants to teach us.
And experience is a greatteacher.
Ivelisse Page (19:22):
Yes, and and I think also one of another thing
that the enemy tries to do is todivide us, right?
So many different denominationsand the gifts of the spirit and
what does that mean for me?
And and I loved how you saidthat, allow our hearts to be
soft enough, so that he can dothe work in it, so that we can
receive things that he may havefor us in this next season, so
(19:44):
as we're evaluating how we grewup, you know, whether it was
conservative or moreevangelical, that we can be open
to understanding and like yousaid, not putting God into a box
of what He can do and what Hecan't do in each of our lives.
And I know, I've had that happenseveral times in my faith
journey.
(20:05):
And, it is a humbling experiencebecause when He shows you
something that you've alwaysthought was a certain way,
you're just like, okay, Lord, Iam this small and I, I need to
remain so closely hemmed intoyour garment that I can just see
you clearly and that I only seeyou and not all the noise from
(20:26):
the world and not all the thingsthat are being thrown my way or
the things that the enemy istrying to distract and
discourage me from believing whoyou really are.
And, and for me personally, Ithink one of the, powerful
things that's really helped meis to always remember his, his
promises because we know thatthey are true for us.
(20:46):
So even when we're having this,wall, time of the wall where
we're questioning and, you know,why is this happening and he can
handle it.
Knowing his promises can give uspeace to move forward.
And I just recently shared witha friend of mine, shared this
with me and I shared it with myfamily.
And I thought it was justfascinating, you know, so many
(21:08):
people trying to disprove who,who Jesus is.
And, you know, I love theprophecies that have been in
scripture, like you said,compared to scripture, because
that is truth.
And they said that over the 2000prophecies, right, that have all
been fulfilled in Jesus.
2000, right?
(21:28):
And many people have tried todebunk them, like try and prove
it wrong, but out of the 2000 ormore, it says the likelihood of
that is as if you had a halfdollar and you put an X on it
and then you buried it in thestate of Texas, knee deep in
coins, then being able to findit.
That is the likelihood of all 2,000 prophecies coming true.
(21:52):
And so when you hear things likethat, it's just like amazing
what what God has for us and thetreasures that we need to hold
on to when we're going throughsomething difficult like this.
Kristi Gaultiere (22:03):
That's right.
Yes, and there's, there's thosetreasures and God's prophecies
and promises and then he also isat work in our lives And as we
remember, and we look at howhe's worked in our lives, and
we, we don't forget that and wehold on to that, that also can
really help us in a time ofdeconstruction.
(22:24):
I know in my deconstruction,that was so helpful to me to
look back and say, Lord, wherehave I experienced your grace in
my life, your action in my life,your provision in your life,
your saving in my life, your,your work, where has that been?
And as I, as I looked back toremember, no, I don't think that
was coincidental.
(22:44):
And I don't think that was justmy own doing.
And I don't think that was justfate.
And I, and here's why, and beingable to reexamine that and ask
him to show me those things.
And then in my deconstruction,another thing that really helped
me was, I felt like the Lorddrew me to the scripture where,
Peter says, to where Jesus says,are you going to go to, are you
(23:06):
going to leave me to, becausemany people have wandered away
from him because his teachingsare hard.
And he says, are you going toleave me to?
And Peter says, to whom will wego?
You have the words of eternallife.
We have come to believe thatyou, are the son of a living
God.
And so I would, I wouldconstantly proclaim that myself,
even in my deconstruction.
(23:26):
To whom would I go?
And anywhere I looked wasinferior and inadequate.
And then the other thing that,that really helped me was
remembering Peter after his falland his denial of Christ.
When Jesus came to the beach inGalilee, and his restoration and
he's walking with him and he'stelling him about what's ahead
(23:47):
and Peter says to Jesus and whatabout him and points to John and
I was identifying with with me.
What about me Lord and Jesussays to Peter you don't worry
you follow me What what I'mgonna do in his life is none of
your business you follow me andI just kept again saying, okay
(24:11):
Lord I will follow you.
That's mine to do.
My job is to trust you and tofollow you and his word in John
6:10 when the disciples askedhim, what is it that God wants?
He says he wants you to believeand trust and follow the one
whom he sent.
That's the one thing in ourdeconstruction we can't lose
sight of is Jesus as thatanchor, hope that is the anchor
(24:35):
of our soul.
Ivelisse Page (24:37):
Yes, and I know that whether it's someone
listening today who is feelingfar from God and going through
this process, or a parent whosechild has walked away from the
faith, or, uh, can you give someadvice as to what are the best
things that we can do forsomeone who is struggling with
(24:58):
their faith or who has walkedaway.
How can we navigate that wellinstead of imposing shame or
trying to fix them through thisprocess that we all try and do?
Kristi Gaultiere (25:08):
Yes, and such a loving question, Ivelisse,
thank you for that.
Well, we want to understand thatthe deconstruction, um, is a
time where we really want to bemediating God's grace and truth
to them, not in lectures, but inreally walking with them through
the deconstruction with wisdom,with empathy, and with patience.
(25:30):
This takes a long time.
This is not an overnight quickfix.
This is a long season.
So educate yourself, get ourbook, Journey to the Soul, read
about the wall, read aboutdeconstruction, read about the
stages of faith and educateyourself.
You might want to pick up ourleader's guide that has all
kinds of great questions thatyou can, um, help them by asking
(25:50):
those questions.
You're not providing answers.
You're asking the questions tohelp them in their time of
seeking.
Don't, don't push pearls, tryingto fix them.
No, guide them as the Lord isworking, and the Lord, trust the
Lord to awaken in them a newlonging for God, and pray for
that for them.
(26:12):
Being someone who can understandthese stages of faith, and
understand the deconstruction,is a great grace and gift.
And so we don't want to hurrypeople into believing the right
thing at all.
We want to offer empathy, gentlequestions, validate their
emotions.
That's not the same as avalidating their opinions that
(26:35):
you might not agree with, orthat might be concerning.
You take those to prayer anddon't engage in arguments there.
Take those to prayer, thevalidate their emotions and we
want to also join God'scompassion for them when we lack
faith.
God offers us compassion.
He doesn't, he doesn't come tous with anger.
(26:56):
And another thing that could bereally helpful is to ask them
specifically, well, which, whichbeliefs specifically are you
questioning?
Which beliefs are changing foryou?
And ask them how they feel aboutthat in their life.
How is it going with them withthat?
Listening with empathy and andletting that inform your prayers
(27:17):
for them.
I think it's really importantthat you help them articulate
their emotions and theirexperiences sometimes especially
early in a deconstruction.
They might not know how to evenarticulate it.
So one of the things that thelanguage in our book and Journey
of the Soul will help with that.
We've also put together aplaylist on Spotify with a
(27:39):
whole, about 40 contemporaryChristian songs for the wall,
specifically, um, that areChristian artists articulating
their questions, they'rewrestling with that faith, but
then they're recentering and thesongs do this.
There's so many wonderful songsof lament that are really
(28:00):
helpful in articulating whatsomeone in a deconstruction
feels and letting them knowthey're not alone.
Actually, the psalmistexperienced this and articulated
this for us, so some of thosePsalms, Psalm 77 is one, a psalm
of deconstruction, where we areseeing in there an apparent lack
(28:21):
of faith that's beingarticulated by the psalmist and.
But there's also in Psalms likePsalm 13, Psalm 42, there's the,
the doubts, the questions, thewrestling, but also the words of
trust for God who listens solovingly to us.
So that can be really helpful isto engage with some of those
(28:43):
psalms of lament that help themput words to what it is that
they're, that they're feeling.
And then also to remember it'sPaul tells us in Philippians
2:12-13, how, um, to continue towork out our salvation with fear
and trembling for it's God whoworks in us to will and to do
according to his purposes.
And to, to remember that for ourfriends that are in
(29:05):
deconstruction and be prayingthat for them for them.
And then to be participatingwith God in that, by journeying
with them, not abandoning them,not rejecting them because
they're wrestling, not judgingthem.
It was so hurtful.
I remember somebody who came toour retreat, we were teaching
this and she was like, Oh, thankyou for understanding.
I went to my pastor at my churchand he questioned whether I was
(29:27):
even a Christian anymore.
And it was so hurtful to her.
And so she stopped going to thechurch.
Because she didn't feelcomfortable.
She felt so judged and we wereso thankful that she didn't give
up on Christianity and that shecame to this retreat where she
was reignited in her faith andwhere she was able to be able to
be honest with the questions andthe doubts, and she was able to
(29:50):
actually identify some of herwrong ideas about God that
weren't consistent with whoJesus is.
Um, and They were a reason whyshe was having trouble trusting
God and she was able to identifysome past wounds that she had
that really needed healing thatsurfaced in this deconstruction.
So deconstruction can actuallybe a good thing because it can
(30:12):
be an opportunity where we canget emotionally honest with God,
ourselves, and others, but wewant to make sure those others
are wise trail guides whounderstand this season and can
lead us towards renewal and um,and grace in this adventure on
our journey with Jesus and torenewed love and hope with him.
Ivelisse Page (30:30):
Yes, thank you.
And I would love the link tothat Spotify list that we can
add to the show notes.
I think that would be reallygreat for us to be able to share
and include.
And, you know, and then there'sbeauty on the other side of that
wall.
And I know that, you know, we'recoming to the end of our
podcast, and you shared theChrist stages of Confidence in
(30:51):
Christ, Help and Discipleship,Responsibility and Ministry, and
sometimes the wall hits there.
But I wanted just to make surewe shared the other three real
quick, which is Inner Journey,uh, then Spirit led, and
Transforming Union is on thatother side of that wall.
Can you just briefly just kindof summarize what that means and
(31:13):
for those who want even moredetail about it, we'll also put
a link to the Journey of theSoul book there for them to to
be able to get more in depth
Kristi Gaultiere (31:21):
Yes, we'd love to that inner journey season is
a season where we begin to getemotionally honest.
We've got ourself and our otherwe didn't open up our souls and
more of his soul His healingtouch, we start to get more,
take courage to get honest aboutand look at some of our early
woundings to our soul that we'vebeen defended against, or that
(31:44):
we've been, uh, maybe an earlyin our season of faith, stage of
faith, we've been, defendedagainst even with spiritual
disciplines, being really busyfor God and service to God, or
trying to even get caught up inearning favor with other
Christians or trying to impressother people or trying to prove
ourselves.
And this is, this inner journeyseason is a season that's
(32:07):
usually the quieter season wherewe cut off our busyness.
We cut off all that striding.
We cut off all that activity ofserving and focusing on others
or being busy doing things forGod.
in order to spend time with Godand to let the Lord minister to
us because we get to a pointwhere we start to realize the
(32:29):
neediness of our soul and westart to realize how desperately
we need His unconditional loveand grace and healing for those
areas where we've missed it andwhere we're able to see the Lord
is ready to begin to reveal tous some hidden sins that we have
not been aware of that are moreunconscious, unconscious habits.
(32:54):
So this this all happens in ourinner journey season as we get
emotionally honest and do someof that emotional growth work.
The other side of that as webegin to reawaken to a greater
longing for God as we, as he, aswe do the inner journey work.
And in that, he then begins toinvite us into spirit led
ministry as we've grown in thisdeeper longing for God and we
(33:17):
begin to have deeper and maybeeven some mystical experiences,
some ways where God really showsup for us in key ways that are
such deep consolations and sopersonal to us.
And we begin to understand thatGod's power is much bigger than
we ever, ever dreamed and muchmore personal and much more
(33:40):
accessible to us personally.
And that as we get out of hisway, he actually empowers us and
uses us in ways that bring usgreat joy.
And that's spirit led ministry.
It's no longer us busy doing allthese great things for God, but
it's us with God by the power ofthe spirit, moving in step with
his spirit and incrediblyfruitful life in that spirit led
(34:05):
ministry season of overflowingbecause we've become wounded
healers.
God has used our experiencethrough the wall and our
deconstruction and our innerjourney work to bring about such
healing and growth that then weare able to offer that to other
people.
And then the transforming unionstage, that T stage, is when
(34:26):
we've walked along with God.
We've been faithful through allthe ups and downs of our
journey.
The joyful times, the hardtimes, the times of great faith,
the times of terrible doubt, thetimes when it just felt so great
to be a Christian and be servingthe Lord.
Those times we felt the cost ofit, the sacrifice and suffering
(34:46):
of being united with Christsuffering, and we've been
faithful and we have come to aplace where we can trust God, no
matter what our circumstances,where we can love our enemies,
where we, like Jesus, havelearned to bless the one that
curses us.
And we've learned to forgive andwe've learned God's grace and
abundance of forgiveness forourselves such that we, we get
(35:08):
free of shame and we get moreconfident in God and his love
and grace at work in us.
But at every season we writeabout injuring the soul at every
season, there is uniquetemptations because there are
different ways the enemy comesto try to test us.
And so even in those lighterstages, there's still more for
us to grow on, go on, becausewe're always at work.
(35:30):
God is always calling us togreater intimacy with him and
deeper joy and stronger faithand hope.
Ivelisse Page (35:35):
That's beautiful.
Well, Kristi, thank you so muchfor shedding light into this
really important topic.
Thank you for being with ustoday and, uh, you know, until
next time.
Kristi Gaultiere (35:48):
Thank you for letting me be with you and thank
you to each of your listenersfor pressing and making space
and time to value your soul asGod does in joining Ivelisse and
Believe Big and letting me be apart of that too.
Ivelisse Page (36:10):
If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to
help support our podcast, pleasesubscribe and share it with
others.
Be sure to visit believebig.orgto access the show notes and
discover our bonus content.
Thanks again and keep BelievingBig!
Hi, I'm Ivelisse Page, and thanks for listening
to the Believe Big podcast, theshow where we take a deep dive
into your healing with healthexperts, integrative
practitioners, biblical faithleaders, and cancer thrivers
from around the globe.
(00:34):
Welcome to today's episode onthe Believe Big podcast.
My name is Ivelisse Page, and Iam so honored to be with you
today.
It is my great pleasure towelcome back to the Believe Big
podcast, my friend and soulsister, Kristi Gaultiere.
Kristi is a frequent guest onour show that helps us to
understand and care for thehealth of our souls and the need
(00:58):
for caring for them.
Kristi is a doctor of psychologyand has dedicated her life to
serving Jesus.
She has also co-authored abestselling book with her
husband of 35 years calledJourney of the Soul, A Practical
Guide to Emotional and SpiritualGrowth.
Her and Bill have three grownchildren.
(01:19):
She's a grandmother of two.
She enjoys speaking, training,teaching, consulting,
counseling, and retreat leadingwith Bill.
as well as recording theirweekly Soul Talks podcast.
Welcome back to the show,Kristi.
Kristi Gaultiere (01:33):
Oh, thank you, Ivelisse.
I'm so happy to be with youtoday and to each of our friends
with us listening in.
Ivelisse Page (01:41):
Well, I'm so grateful that you're here to
talk with us about hope anddeconstruction of our faith.
You know, I was just having aconversation with my family
because, you know, many peoplehave circumstances in their
lives, especially in ourcommunity with cancer, that
cause us as individuals toquestion our faith.
It happened to me when my fatherdied when I was 13, and also
(02:03):
last fall when I got a secondcancer diagnosis and the good
news for people to hear today isthat it's healthy to question
things that you have been taughtand learned because you're being
honest with how you feel.
But here's the important pieceand I feel like this is the
message of today is that, youdon't have to lose your faith in
the process and I know that SoulShepherding works with many
(02:28):
individuals who hit this walland I'm so excited for you to
shed light into this topic.
But before we get into it youknow we always start our show
with with our favorite healthtip and you have shared in the
past about prayer, you sharedabout rhythms of life.
What is another one that you canshare with our listeners today?
Kristi Gaultiere (02:50):
Well, another one's pretty obvious pretty
basic, but I've found it reallyhelpful to me and that's just
drinking a lot of water, reallystaying hydrated.
I just am so grateful.
I thank God every day for pure,clean water and in abundance and
something easy to take forgranted.
But it makes a big differencewhen I get enough versus when I
(03:11):
don't.
Little things.
Ivelisse Page (03:12):
Yes.
Yes.
Little thing that is a bigthing.
Yeah.
Yes.
So Kristi, for, for those whomay not understand what
deconstruction is.
Can you explain what it is?
Kristi Gaultiere (03:24):
Yes.
Well, it's actually a seasonthat often we can experience in
our life, and we often maybewill experience it as
questioning our faith, feelingdryness spiritually, feeling
doubts in our faith, it'ssomething maybe, maybe it'd be
(03:49):
best just to use a descriptionfrom our book, Journey of The
Soul.
We say just a simple definitionChristian deconstruction is the
experience of questioning yourfaith, your traditions, the
Bible or your church.
It's taking apart your beliefsystem.
So that you can rebuild it,founded on a relationship of
(04:11):
healthy trusting Jesus.
So we all have experienced inour spiritual life a
construction of our faith.
And there are certain, you mighteven say, bricks that we've been
put in there that are prettyfoundational.
We write about this in our book,Journey of the Soul, which is
about our stages of faith andemotional, spiritual growth.
(04:34):
So when we build a faith, we getsome basic building blocks in
there, and then we build onthose as we grow and mature in
our faith.
But it is normal for us aftersome years of building that,
that faith.
that faith and those pillars andputting those key components in
(04:54):
to start to question some ofthose.
They, they get knocked on prettyhard.
They get assaulted.
We hear things that are inconflict with them that are
different than them.
We experience things in lifethat don't seem to fit that box
that we've kind of maybe put Godin.
And so it starts to getchallenged.
(05:16):
And then we run into a new setof experiences.
Like many of your listenersright now, or like I have with,
you know, I've had four familymembers with cancer and the last
two years, and I've lost two offour of them to, to cancer.
Uh, the other two are doinggreat and have fully recovered.
But, um, you know, those kindsof challenges they bring about
(05:37):
questions that we haven't hadbefore.
Those experiences test ourfaith.
They push really hard on thosethose beliefs we've constructed
and, um, cause us to relook atour life and some things that we
hadn't really questioned before.
And that can be a deconstructionof those things that maybe we'd
(06:01):
felt pretty confident in.
Maybe they've supported us well,held us up well, and now it's,
it's getting pretty wobbly.
Another thing that we writeabout in the chapter, The Wall,
This is the stage of faith wherewe are often in some sort of a
deconstruction.
There's different kinds ofwalls.
It can be a personal crisis,like a cancer diagnosis.
(06:21):
It could be a dark night of thesoul where you really are not
experiencing God's comfort andpresence and consolation.
Maybe you're reading scriptureand it feels dry and dead, where
it used to feel alive and speakto you, now it's just boring.
Maybe you can't find anythingmotivating or that feels good in
your spiritual life that used tofeel so great.
(06:42):
Now it just feels all blah andboring and old and dry and
familiar.
Maybe you don't want to go tochurch anymore.
Maybe you're feeling burned outon all the the things that you
were doing in your life inserving God and you don't have
any motivation to join itanymore.
These are can all be a part ofthat season at the wall.
(07:02):
And one of the things that canhappen at the wall is this
deconstruction where we start tothink what's happening to me.
Well, is God even real?
Is anything I believe even trueanymore?
Do I still believe it?
Is it working for me?
Those are the kind of thingsthat we start to look at and ask
ourselves in a deconstruction ofour faith.
Ivelisse Page (07:21):
Yes, and you have shared, you know, that even some
of our heroes of faith wentthrough deconstruction.
And I was like, what?
At first, when I first heardthat, it surprised me.
Until you started to share aboutit.
Can you share with our audiencesome of the biblical examples of
those who went through thisprocess, like Moses and
Nicodemus even?
Kristi Gaultiere (07:41):
Absolutely.
We do write about this in ourbook.
One of the things we write aboutis we talk about Paul's journey
through every season and stageof faith, and Abraham's, and
most importantly Jesus's, aswell as Bill and I share our
stories and the stories ofothers we've journeyed with but
Jesus experienced a testing ofhis faith where, he was drawn
(08:02):
into the wilderness there for 40days where he was tested by
Satan in every way and temptedin every way that we are we know
that he was he was also temptedvery much by the religious
leaders of his day who areconstantly peppering him with
questions and challenging him Weknow even John the Baptist his
cousin who he loved so very muchquestioned if he was the Messiah
(08:27):
And we know that Jesus sufferedother walls that we write about
in our book.
He, he experienced andencountered at least three
walls, which are that, thatstage of faith where you hit a
wall, a really a testing and atrial time and, um, certainly we
know that one of those walls wasearly on in those hidden years
of his life when he was stuck athome in the hick town of
(08:50):
Nazareth working as a bluecollar worker, providing for his
family.
We knew he had multiple brothersand sisters and his mom was a
widow.
And so he would have been thehead male of the house and
household and provider and hewas probably working for his
enemies, um, the Romans whooccupied Israel at the time and
be persecuted by them.
(09:10):
And what a dry time.
Here he was, uh, with so muchknowledge and giftedness and
this huge call of God on hislife.
And it sure didn't look like itin that season, that long
season, 18 years, uh, of waitingbetween him being 12 years old
at the synagogue, teaching thereligious leaders, till he was
(09:32):
30, launching his ministry.
And then we know he had a deepwall there of temptation in the
Garden of Gethsemane, where hewas being tested by Satan.
Again, um, but certainly we knowPaul hit a big wall, a big
deconstruction on the road toDamascus, when he was kicked off
his horse and blinded, and herehe was a Pharisee, he had
(09:53):
constructed a whole faith andreligious system, he had been
trained by Gamaliel, it was avery highly respected.
He was A++ student, summa cumlaude, you know, he was the top
of his religious order there,devout.
And here, what a deconstructionto encounter the living Christ,
saying, why are you persecutingme?
(10:15):
And all of a sudden you had allthese, but Lord, who are you?
All of these questions.
And he was blinded and weexperienced often a sort of
blinding, maybe not physicallylike Paul did, um, but he
experienced a totaldeconstruction and it was a good
thing, and he went, then went,three years into the desert of
Arabia to work through thatdeconstruction and that
(10:36):
reconstruction of a healthyfaith.
And that's the opportunity indeconstruction is the
reconstruction.
We maybe have some things thatwere built into our faith that
need to be taken out in orderfor the Lord to reteach us and
put some healthy new beliefs inthere.
Autumn Hensley (10:56):
Hey, Believe Big podcast listeners.
I hope you're enjoying today'sepisode with Kristi Gaultiere
and finding our podcastencouraging and uplifting.
Today is New Year's Eve, and aswe end 2024, we'd love for you
to consider supporting cancerpatients by helping us provide
resources like this podcast.
(11:17):
We can't do it without yourgenerosity.
Joining us is easy.
Just text BELIEVEBIG, no spaces,to 53555 on your smartphone.
That's BELIEVEBIG to 53555.
Thank you for Believing Big withus and happy 2025!
Ivelisse Page (11:36):
Yes.
Yeah, and I think that's whereit gets a bad name, right?
So I think this wholeprogressive Christianity that we
hear about now, you know theimproper way of Deconstructing
and then reconstruction withwhat you believe is what we hear
a lot.
This is my truth.
You have your truth when we knowthat Jesus says that he is the
(11:58):
way, the truth, and the life.
So how does one reconstructfaith after deconstruction in a
healthy way?
Kristi Gaultiere (12:07):
Well, the good news is that's the goal.
That's the goal.
And that's why God allows thesetimes of testing and for us to
go through this disorientation.
Um, the, the deconstruction timewe hit the wall, it is
disorienting.
It is a time it's destabilizingas we're questioning things
before were so stabilizing forus as we have these new
(12:28):
wrestlings.
Um, and so it's not somethingthat usually we choose, but we
can choose how we respond to it.
And that's, what's really key isthat it can, are we going to
respond by just spinning out andseeking other, um, kind of other
beliefs, other religions.
And a lot of people,unfortunately, when they hit a
(12:49):
wall, they don't know thatthere's any other choice and
they will leave and totallyabandon their faith in Christ.
Thinking that I guess this isall there was and it was
immature and there's nothingmore and they start to seek all
these other kind of spiritualexperiences and they kind of
diminish what they hadexperienced before and they can
(13:10):
lose sight of some of the jewelsand the treasures there and
that's really, really sad.
So very sad.
And so, uh, deconstructions canbe a dangerous time and we want
to really empathize with peoplewho are in a deconstruction and
we want to make sure that wemake space to really listen to
those doubts, those wrestlings,to empathize with that emotion
(13:32):
of how that feels and the painin that for them.
And, um, how hard it feels tofeel untethered from some things
that were really secure forthem, but we also want to help
keep them tethered to the truthof Christ and the presence of
Christ and his great love forhim and not wander out to where
(13:53):
they lose their faith in Christand they lose the goodness of
him and his light, his life, hispower, his grace that we, we so
need.
So to remember that it's anopportunity for a healthy
reconstruction and to, to notdeconstruct to the point where
you abandon Jesus as the way,the truth and the life is, is
(14:15):
really, really important inthat.
And it can be helpful in ourjourney to look through, look
back and say, um, okay, so what,how do I know any of this is
true.
So there's, there's four thingsthat can be really helpful in
that too.
One of those is we want to lookat scripture.
Scripture is the source of truthin our life.
(14:37):
We want to look at reason.
Reason is the source of truth inour life.
Experience is a source of trueour spiritual experience.
How have I experienced God?
What, how do I know God wasreal?
Um, what does the Bible tell me?
What are other people'sexperiences?
What are my experiences?
What's reasonable that Ibelieve?
(14:58):
Reasonable that it's true.
And then also tradition.
We've got thousands andthousands of years of tradition,
Christian tradition of followersof Jesus and they're wrestling
through deconstructions andthey're their experience, their
reason, their knowledge, um,their interaction with God's
(15:20):
word and truth.
And we want, we don't want toforsake 2000 years of tradition
just because we're having somedoubts or some questions.
We don't want to be quick toabandon that.
So having those four supportscan really help us as well in
our reconstruction of our faithand asking God to lead us to
(15:42):
some of some reminders of that.
So it was really helpful to mein my time of deconstruction to
remember all the consolationsthat I had experienced in my
life in Christ through thoseearlier stages of my first
coming to Christ, my when Ifirst put my confidence in
Christ, through my help anddiscipleship, where I was really
learning to study scripture andreceiving truth from the Bible
(16:07):
and through my responsibilitiesin ministry, where I really did
experience the presence of powerof God in my life, ministering
to me through other people andtheir gifts, but also empowering
me and giving me joy gifts thatI got to use and experienced His
power through me far beyond myown abilities and knowledge.
And so holding on and kind ofgoing down memory lane and
(16:28):
remembering those good things.
Um, it's one of the things weencourage people to do in our
Journey of the Soul book and inour Institute Retreats is to do
a journey map of our, ourspiritual journey so far and
really mining what are thosetreasures?
Where have I had thoseexperiences with God?
Where have I experienced theseother things that people in my,
(16:51):
in my Christian traditiontestify to and have experienced
and looking at other people'sjourneys like we spell out in
Journey of the Soul and findingout what, What of those are true
in my journey?
Okay, I want to keep those,those are, those are bricks I
want to keep in my faith lifeand wall and not let those
tumble or get thrown out in mydeconstruction process.
(17:12):
And then where do I have longingfor God?
Where are there others that areahead of me on this journey?
And where's God inviting me onmy journey that maybe I've been,
I haven't been ready to go therebecause I have been closed
minded.
Because oftentimes beforedeconstruction, my thinking
might be very black and white.
And God might want to grow mebeyond that black and white
(17:35):
thinking, or I might have putGod in a box that he wants to
grow my view and my image ifanyone want to correct my image
of God.
I probably along the way havegotten some mistaken images of
God, which you know we talk alot about in our spiritual
formation retreat.
So these are the kind ofopportunities we have at the
wall, to be able to look at whatare my ideas about God?
(17:59):
Where have they been, uh, boxedin maybe by immature faith?
Where's God expanding them andgrowing me or where have they
gotten out there and I need tobring them back in an alignment
with God's truth and scriptureand experience.
Ivelisse Page (18:14):
And it can happen at all, at many different points
in our life.
It's not just, Oh, there's thisone time where, you know, I hit
this and, and that's it.
You know, it can happen severaltimes in our life, can't it?
Kristi Gaultiere (18:25):
Yes, it can.
I know, um, in Journey of theSoul, we talk about we can hit a
wall like a deconstructionmultiple times.
It usually happens after someyears in the first three stages
of faith, which are the C, H,and R stages, which we talk
about Confidence in Christ, Helpin Discipleship, and
Responsibility in Ministry.
(18:46):
But it can even happen afterwe've progressed into the latter
stages, which are Inner Journey,Spirit Led Ministry and
Transforming Union because we,we have an enemy at every stage
of our development and he'salways trying to kill, steal and
destroy us.
And so we will get other timesof doubt, other times of
(19:07):
questioning, other times wherewe will be back in that
deconstructing and re examiningour beliefs.
And also because we have a Lordwho loves us, who's always
calling us into more and alwayswants to teach us.
And experience is a greatteacher.
Ivelisse Page (19:22):
Yes, and and I think also one of another thing
that the enemy tries to do is todivide us, right?
So many different denominationsand the gifts of the spirit and
what does that mean for me?
And and I loved how you saidthat, allow our hearts to be
soft enough, so that he can dothe work in it, so that we can
receive things that he may havefor us in this next season, so
(19:44):
as we're evaluating how we grewup, you know, whether it was
conservative or moreevangelical, that we can be open
to understanding and like yousaid, not putting God into a box
of what He can do and what Hecan't do in each of our lives.
And I know, I've had that happenseveral times in my faith
journey.
(20:05):
And, it is a humbling experiencebecause when He shows you
something that you've alwaysthought was a certain way,
you're just like, okay, Lord, Iam this small and I, I need to
remain so closely hemmed intoyour garment that I can just see
you clearly and that I only seeyou and not all the noise from
(20:26):
the world and not all the thingsthat are being thrown my way or
the things that the enemy istrying to distract and
discourage me from believing whoyou really are.
And, and for me personally, Ithink one of the, powerful
things that's really helped meis to always remember his, his
promises because we know thatthey are true for us.
(20:46):
So even when we're having this,wall, time of the wall where
we're questioning and, you know,why is this happening and he can
handle it.
Knowing his promises can give uspeace to move forward.
And I just recently shared witha friend of mine, shared this
with me and I shared it with myfamily.
And I thought it was justfascinating, you know, so many
(21:08):
people trying to disprove who,who Jesus is.
And, you know, I love theprophecies that have been in
scripture, like you said,compared to scripture, because
that is truth.
And they said that over the 2000prophecies, right, that have all
been fulfilled in Jesus.
2000, right?
(21:28):
And many people have tried todebunk them, like try and prove
it wrong, but out of the 2000 ormore, it says the likelihood of
that is as if you had a halfdollar and you put an X on it
and then you buried it in thestate of Texas, knee deep in
coins, then being able to findit.
That is the likelihood of all 2,000 prophecies coming true.
(21:52):
And so when you hear things likethat, it's just like amazing
what what God has for us and thetreasures that we need to hold
on to when we're going throughsomething difficult like this.
Kristi Gaultiere (22:03):
That's right.
Yes, and there's, there's thosetreasures and God's prophecies
and promises and then he also isat work in our lives And as we
remember, and we look at howhe's worked in our lives, and
we, we don't forget that and wehold on to that, that also can
really help us in a time ofdeconstruction.
(22:24):
I know in my deconstruction,that was so helpful to me to
look back and say, Lord, wherehave I experienced your grace in
my life, your action in my life,your provision in your life,
your saving in my life, your,your work, where has that been?
And as I, as I looked back toremember, no, I don't think that
was coincidental.
(22:44):
And I don't think that was justmy own doing.
And I don't think that was justfate.
And I, and here's why, and beingable to reexamine that and ask
him to show me those things.
And then in my deconstruction,another thing that really helped
me was, I felt like the Lorddrew me to the scripture where,
Peter says, to where Jesus says,are you going to go to, are you
(23:06):
going to leave me to, becausemany people have wandered away
from him because his teachingsare hard.
And he says, are you going toleave me to?
And Peter says, to whom will wego?
You have the words of eternallife.
We have come to believe thatyou, are the son of a living
God.
And so I would, I wouldconstantly proclaim that myself,
even in my deconstruction.
(23:26):
To whom would I go?
And anywhere I looked wasinferior and inadequate.
And then the other thing that,that really helped me was
remembering Peter after his falland his denial of Christ.
When Jesus came to the beach inGalilee, and his restoration and
he's walking with him and he'stelling him about what's ahead
(23:47):
and Peter says to Jesus and whatabout him and points to John and
I was identifying with with me.
What about me Lord and Jesussays to Peter you don't worry
you follow me What what I'mgonna do in his life is none of
your business you follow me andI just kept again saying, okay
(24:11):
Lord I will follow you.
That's mine to do.
My job is to trust you and tofollow you and his word in John
6:10 when the disciples askedhim, what is it that God wants?
He says he wants you to believeand trust and follow the one
whom he sent.
That's the one thing in ourdeconstruction we can't lose
sight of is Jesus as thatanchor, hope that is the anchor
(24:35):
of our soul.
Ivelisse Page (24:37):
Yes, and I know that whether it's someone
listening today who is feelingfar from God and going through
this process, or a parent whosechild has walked away from the
faith, or, uh, can you give someadvice as to what are the best
things that we can do forsomeone who is struggling with
(24:58):
their faith or who has walkedaway.
How can we navigate that wellinstead of imposing shame or
trying to fix them through thisprocess that we all try and do?
Kristi Gaultiere (25:08):
Yes, and such a loving question, Ivelisse,
thank you for that.
Well, we want to understand thatthe deconstruction, um, is a
time where we really want to bemediating God's grace and truth
to them, not in lectures, but inreally walking with them through
the deconstruction with wisdom,with empathy, and with patience.
(25:30):
This takes a long time.
This is not an overnight quickfix.
This is a long season.
So educate yourself, get ourbook, Journey to the Soul, read
about the wall, read aboutdeconstruction, read about the
stages of faith and educateyourself.
You might want to pick up ourleader's guide that has all
kinds of great questions thatyou can, um, help them by asking
(25:50):
those questions.
You're not providing answers.
You're asking the questions tohelp them in their time of
seeking.
Don't, don't push pearls, tryingto fix them.
No, guide them as the Lord isworking, and the Lord, trust the
Lord to awaken in them a newlonging for God, and pray for
that for them.
(26:12):
Being someone who can understandthese stages of faith, and
understand the deconstruction,is a great grace and gift.
And so we don't want to hurrypeople into believing the right
thing at all.
We want to offer empathy, gentlequestions, validate their
emotions.
That's not the same as avalidating their opinions that
(26:35):
you might not agree with, orthat might be concerning.
You take those to prayer anddon't engage in arguments there.
Take those to prayer, thevalidate their emotions and we
want to also join God'scompassion for them when we lack
faith.
God offers us compassion.
He doesn't, he doesn't come tous with anger.
(26:56):
And another thing that could bereally helpful is to ask them
specifically, well, which, whichbeliefs specifically are you
questioning?
Which beliefs are changing foryou?
And ask them how they feel aboutthat in their life.
How is it going with them withthat?
Listening with empathy and andletting that inform your prayers
(27:17):
for them.
I think it's really importantthat you help them articulate
their emotions and theirexperiences sometimes especially
early in a deconstruction.
They might not know how to evenarticulate it.
So one of the things that thelanguage in our book and Journey
of the Soul will help with that.
We've also put together aplaylist on Spotify with a
(27:39):
whole, about 40 contemporaryChristian songs for the wall,
specifically, um, that areChristian artists articulating
their questions, they'rewrestling with that faith, but
then they're recentering and thesongs do this.
There's so many wonderful songsof lament that are really
(28:00):
helpful in articulating whatsomeone in a deconstruction
feels and letting them knowthey're not alone.
Actually, the psalmistexperienced this and articulated
this for us, so some of thosePsalms, Psalm 77 is one, a psalm
of deconstruction, where we areseeing in there an apparent lack
(28:21):
of faith that's beingarticulated by the psalmist and.
But there's also in Psalms likePsalm 13, Psalm 42, there's the,
the doubts, the questions, thewrestling, but also the words of
trust for God who listens solovingly to us.
So that can be really helpful isto engage with some of those
(28:43):
psalms of lament that help themput words to what it is that
they're, that they're feeling.
And then also to remember it'sPaul tells us in Philippians
2:12-13, how, um, to continue towork out our salvation with fear
and trembling for it's God whoworks in us to will and to do
according to his purposes.
And to, to remember that for ourfriends that are in
(29:05):
deconstruction and be prayingthat for them for them.
And then to be participatingwith God in that, by journeying
with them, not abandoning them,not rejecting them because
they're wrestling, not judgingthem.
It was so hurtful.
I remember somebody who came toour retreat, we were teaching
this and she was like, Oh, thankyou for understanding.
I went to my pastor at my churchand he questioned whether I was
(29:27):
even a Christian anymore.
And it was so hurtful to her.
And so she stopped going to thechurch.
Because she didn't feelcomfortable.
She felt so judged and we wereso thankful that she didn't give
up on Christianity and that shecame to this retreat where she
was reignited in her faith andwhere she was able to be able to
be honest with the questions andthe doubts, and she was able to
(29:50):
actually identify some of herwrong ideas about God that
weren't consistent with whoJesus is.
Um, and They were a reason whyshe was having trouble trusting
God and she was able to identifysome past wounds that she had
that really needed healing thatsurfaced in this deconstruction.
So deconstruction can actuallybe a good thing because it can
(30:12):
be an opportunity where we canget emotionally honest with God,
ourselves, and others, but wewant to make sure those others
are wise trail guides whounderstand this season and can
lead us towards renewal and um,and grace in this adventure on
our journey with Jesus and torenewed love and hope with him.
Ivelisse Page (30:30):
Yes, thank you.
And I would love the link tothat Spotify list that we can
add to the show notes.
I think that would be reallygreat for us to be able to share
and include.
And, you know, and then there'sbeauty on the other side of that
wall.
And I know that, you know, we'recoming to the end of our
podcast, and you shared theChrist stages of Confidence in
(30:51):
Christ, Help and Discipleship,Responsibility and Ministry, and
sometimes the wall hits there.
But I wanted just to make surewe shared the other three real
quick, which is Inner Journey,uh, then Spirit led, and
Transforming Union is on thatother side of that wall.
Can you just briefly just kindof summarize what that means and
(31:13):
for those who want even moredetail about it, we'll also put
a link to the Journey of theSoul book there for them to to
be able to get more in depth
Kristi Gaultiere (31:21):
Yes, we'd love to that inner journey season is
a season where we begin to getemotionally honest.
We've got ourself and our otherwe didn't open up our souls and
more of his soul His healingtouch, we start to get more,
take courage to get honest aboutand look at some of our early
woundings to our soul that we'vebeen defended against, or that
(31:44):
we've been, uh, maybe an earlyin our season of faith, stage of
faith, we've been, defendedagainst even with spiritual
disciplines, being really busyfor God and service to God, or
trying to even get caught up inearning favor with other
Christians or trying to impressother people or trying to prove
ourselves.
And this is, this inner journeyseason is a season that's
(32:07):
usually the quieter season wherewe cut off our busyness.
We cut off all that striding.
We cut off all that activity ofserving and focusing on others
or being busy doing things forGod.
in order to spend time with Godand to let the Lord minister to
us because we get to a pointwhere we start to realize the
(32:29):
neediness of our soul and westart to realize how desperately
we need His unconditional loveand grace and healing for those
areas where we've missed it andwhere we're able to see the Lord
is ready to begin to reveal tous some hidden sins that we have
not been aware of that are moreunconscious, unconscious habits.
(32:54):
So this this all happens in ourinner journey season as we get
emotionally honest and do someof that emotional growth work.
The other side of that as webegin to reawaken to a greater
longing for God as we, as he, aswe do the inner journey work.
And in that, he then begins toinvite us into spirit led
ministry as we've grown in thisdeeper longing for God and we
(33:17):
begin to have deeper and maybeeven some mystical experiences,
some ways where God really showsup for us in key ways that are
such deep consolations and sopersonal to us.
And we begin to understand thatGod's power is much bigger than
we ever, ever dreamed and muchmore personal and much more
(33:40):
accessible to us personally.
And that as we get out of hisway, he actually empowers us and
uses us in ways that bring usgreat joy.
And that's spirit led ministry.
It's no longer us busy doing allthese great things for God, but
it's us with God by the power ofthe spirit, moving in step with
his spirit and incrediblyfruitful life in that spirit led
(34:05):
ministry season of overflowingbecause we've become wounded
healers.
God has used our experiencethrough the wall and our
deconstruction and our innerjourney work to bring about such
healing and growth that then weare able to offer that to other
people.
And then the transforming unionstage, that T stage, is when
(34:26):
we've walked along with God.
We've been faithful through allthe ups and downs of our
journey.
The joyful times, the hardtimes, the times of great faith,
the times of terrible doubt, thetimes when it just felt so great
to be a Christian and be servingthe Lord.
Those times we felt the cost ofit, the sacrifice and suffering
(34:46):
of being united with Christsuffering, and we've been
faithful and we have come to aplace where we can trust God, no
matter what our circumstances,where we can love our enemies,
where we, like Jesus, havelearned to bless the one that
curses us.
And we've learned to forgive andwe've learned God's grace and
abundance of forgiveness forourselves such that we, we get
(35:08):
free of shame and we get moreconfident in God and his love
and grace at work in us.
But at every season we writeabout injuring the soul at every
season, there is uniquetemptations because there are
different ways the enemy comesto try to test us.
And so even in those lighterstages, there's still more for
us to grow on, go on, becausewe're always at work.
(35:30):
God is always calling us togreater intimacy with him and
deeper joy and stronger faithand hope.
Ivelisse Page (35:35):
That's beautiful.
Well, Kristi, thank you so muchfor shedding light into this
really important topic.
Thank you for being with ustoday and, uh, you know, until
next time.
Kristi Gaultiere (35:48):
Thank you for letting me be with you and thank
you to each of your listenersfor pressing and making space
and time to value your soul asGod does in joining Ivelisse and
Believe Big and letting me be apart of that too.
Ivelisse Page (36:10):
If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to
help support our podcast, pleasesubscribe and share it with
others.
Be sure to visit believebig.orgto access the show notes and
discover our bonus content.
Thanks again and keep BelievingBig!
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